Aetiology

Tara, Thanks for all this. I expect you will be inundated by more denialists. Fifteen years ago I was pretty well informed on the subject because I was designing and synthesizing protease inhibitors. The question I have for all the denialists is: what qualifies you to come to your conclusions?

This is not a social issue that is decided by persuasion; this is a technical issue that is decided on the data, by people qualified to understand the data.

There is an article (warning- PDF) that I find useful, it is about how people who know the least about a subject have the strongest opinions http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf .

Before denialists play the Duesberg card- I have read his early arguments, while doing so I thought "there must be a psychiatric diagnosis for his condition." Sure, he is an authority on retroviruses; but, on HIV-AIDS he is irrational.

Posted by: Joe | June 29, 2007 11:51 AM

Lynn Margulis got her views from Peter Duesberg & Harvey Bialy and particularly from Harvey Bialy's biography of Duesberg. The fact that Margulis recently parroted those views in a blog posting (including canards like all pregnant women testing positive) suggests that whatever her scientific background, it has not served her well on this topic. I do not know enough about her to know if she's a crackpot, but the people she's getting her information from certainly are, e.g. here is Harvey Bialy attempting to "debate" Nick Bennett:

http://deanesmay.com/posts/1105628771.shtml

Bialy subsequently admitted that "Eccles the Idiot" was also him.

Posted by: Richard Jefferys | June 29, 2007 12:46 PM

I suppose we can't be masters of all knowledge. Has she submitted any sort of withdrawal if her statements?

Posted by: apy | June 29, 2007 1:11 PM

Oh dear,

Tara's doing some "damage control".

Another study comes out (see sidebar) that should get any thinking person to question which way is "up" in "AIDS research".

I like the way Jeffreys basically states the Lynn Margulis can't think for herself. Obviously, Duesberg needs to hold her hand, otherwise she wouldn't question the HIV=AIDS hypothesis. Lame

Anyhoo,
in response to "Joe", who's aware that this really isn't a scientific issue, but a sociolgical one (but states the opposite)...as soon as you science folks lose the gays on this one, it's a done deal. San Diego's Gay Lesbian Times recently published an article that gave the dissidents a fair shake. The editor goes on to say that the GLT will continue to keep the debate open. Oh, dear...

Posted by: Dan | June 29, 2007 1:52 PM

Well, if saying "you're all nuts" is offering to keep the debate open. It could have positive effects though, maybe they can get more of them to renounce their past homophobic comments. Do you see Margulis's statement that all pregnant women test HIV positive as a triumph of independent thinking?

Posted by: Richard Jefferys | June 29, 2007 2:06 PM

Keep in mind that most scientists who question hiv have no conflicts of interest, unlike John Moore.

Don't they?

Take Harvey Bialy for an example. He might not have any perceived financial conflicts of interest, but those aren't the only conflicts of interest worth considering. In fact, a more salient conflict of interest worth considering is Harvey Bialy's raging and mentally unbalanced hate of homosexuals. In his case, AIDS denialism is either a way of attempting to convince HIV-positive homosexuals the treatment that they need and so contributing to their deaths, or a way of shifting the blame for the disease from an ethically neutral virus to a "lifestyle disease" for which he can blame homosexuals. Perhaps it's a bit of both. In either case, dispassionate evaluation is not common to HIV-denialists.

Posted by: Nullifidian | June 29, 2007 2:37 PM

Apy,

do you watch "The Simpsons"?

You sound like Ralph Wiggum.

Lisa's 2nd grade class had just gotten finished watching a film about the evils of vegetarianism where vegetarians were described as "grade A morons". The children, young and easily susceptible to propagandam, started calling Lisa (a vegetarian) a "grade A moron" for not eating the tripe presented to them.

The fact that you call people "denialists", shows that you've just watched the film (AIDStruth).

Posted by: Dan | June 29, 2007 2:56 PM

I preceded and ended my comment with the fact that I am rather new to this entire discussion. I am certainly willing to educate myself more if you would provide information rather than insults.

Posted by: apy | June 29, 2007 3:17 PM

Apy,

For a site that isn't high in the google ratings, and presumably gets only 150 hits a day, you seemed to find AIDStruth without a problem.

You're willing to educate yourself. Are you eager to educate yourself?

If you're eager, you'll go out and read everything you can and discern for yourself what's going on. Or you can just rely on AIDStruth. Your choice.

Posted by: Dan | June 29, 2007 3:27 PM

Not all of us are microbiologists or virologists, yet we have an important obligaton to question academic HIV research, and demand an accounting, especially when HIV research is suspected to be tainted by academic misconduct, unethical or immoral conduct, or influenced by drug company money sponsorship. The danger of leaving oversight to academics in the ivory tower is the same as placing the fox to guard the chicken house.

A favorite false argument by the AIDS apologists is the one you raised, which is, don't raise any questions because only the highly trained HIV virologists and HIV immunologists in their ivory towers can actually know anything about HIV, and the rest of us poor souls should thank them while we submit to HIV testing, and deadly anti HIV drugs like nevirapine which had once been banned by the CDC ( January 2001).

When science enters our living room, then that gives us the right and obligation to question mandatory HIV testing with false positives that can send life into upheaval, or even trigger the administration of toxic deadly drugs, or removal of a child by social agencies. This has become an even more serious issue in the past 30 years with a long list of bad drugs approved by the FDA and later withdrawn, and other serious problems with the health care system which have come to light as mentioned in books by Abramson and Angell. It is also imperative for the taxpayer to demand an accounting of all the billions of taxpayer public dollars spent on HIV research with no vaccine, no animal model and no mechanism of disease.

The basic questions that need to be answered are:

1) has medical science proven the hypothesis that HIV causes AIDS? If so, where are the medical references? So far, none of the drug company reps or paid political activists has posted these in spite of repeated requests. They have given us a few links from the AIDS truth web site, such as this Gallo NEJM article

Who among you here accepts this article as the one that proves HIV causes AIDS?

2) Where are the placebo controlled studies showing safety and efficacy of nevirapine and the other HIV drugs? There aren't any. This is a disgrace.

3) Where is the animal model for HIV causing AIDS. There isn't any. This is a disgrace.

4) Where are the hundreds of healthcare workers who contracted AIDS from occupational exposure to AIDS patients needle sticks? There is a governement CDC report of occupationally acquired AIDS which are problematic, there are no other peer reviewed medical literature reports of interns, residents, surgeons, and nurses catching AIDS from needle sticks from AIDs patients. This experiment injecting human "primates" (ie health care workers) with HIV laden needle sticks has been a colossal failure, same as the colossal failure to cause AIDS in chimps by injecting them with HIV. Chimps don't get AIDS.

It is a disgrace that deadly toxic drugs are being administered to mothers and babies without scientific proof of the causation between HIV and Aids, and without a placebo controlled drug study showing safety and efficacy of the toxic drugs.

For more info see; reviewingaids DOT com

Posted by: Evion | June 29, 2007 4:05 PM

"For a site that isn't high in the google ratings, and presumably gets only 150 hits a day, you seemed to find AIDStruth without a problem."

It's linked to twice in the post you are commenting on.

"You're willing to educate yourself. Are you eager to educate yourself?"

I don't know what this means. This isn't some world changing event where I decide to take the blue pill. I'm just reading some websites.

"If you're eager, you'll go out and read everything you can and discern for yourself what's going on. Or you can just rely on AIDStruth. Your choice."

You seem fairly willing and eager to criticize rather than suggest some reading sources.

Adele,
Thanks for the site listing, I'll look it over when I can.

"oh my. What a difference it would have made had you simply listed the sites without commentary."

You are willing to speak fairly negatively about the aidstruth website but criticize someone which speaks negatively about the 'other side'? Perhaps arguing against specific points might help?

Posted by: apy | June 29, 2007 4:28 PM

Dan,

Is there anything untrue about my "commentary"? Did Harvey Bialy put monkey heads on John Moore or not? Did all the people on deharven's "list" actually sign it or not? Are there people on there who died of AIDS or not? Does the Alive and Well board include alot of people who make money from giving patients "alternative" treatments or not?

The disgrace here "Evion" is people who can't come up with one original objection to solid HIV science in the last twenty years. Like asking for the "one" paper that proves this or that. Or insisting that "hundreds" or thousands or whatever of healthcare workers should have got AIDS when the reasons why it's lower were given again and again and then just this afternoon by people like DT on the other thread. Or saying yet again there aren't any placebo controlled studies when they know there are or they're just repeating what some other denialist said.

Every denialist argument is like this at least the ones I've seen. They're old. They were mostly crap even when they first came out with a few exceptions that were answered since then. They require you to ignore the evidence or else lie about it like we've seen Andrew Maniotis do here and like Duesberg has done since the eighties.

Posted by: Adele | June 29, 2007 5:02 PM

I don't know, but the specific post you are referencing I made was referring to some sort of model for what dissidents do think causes AIDS. I'm asking for an experiment that can be preformed that is reproducible that causes AIDS. Sorry for the confusion.

Posted by: apy | June 29, 2007 5:26 PM

Mr Bialy claims to be very rich. Rich people often know rich people, perhaps he could work something out?

Posted by: apy | June 29, 2007 5:42 PM

Ah, Adele, you never answered my question, have chimps always been such an imperfect animal model as in the case of HIV/AIDS?

The only drugs that cause anything like AIDS are immunosuppressives. Drugs don't cause AIDS

Thank you for that. I'm confident Apy can draw his own conclusions from that piece of logic without comment - if he wants to...

Posted by: Pope | June 29, 2007 5:54 PM

"The only drugs that cause anything like AIDS are immunosuppressives. Drugs don't cause AIDS

Thank you for that. I'm confident Apy can draw his own conclusions from that piece of logic without comment - if he wants to... "

I can't draw a conclusion yet, I need another piece of data. It sounds like you are implying AIDS is caused by drugs. So, have a statistically relevant portion of AIDS patients been proven to have taken a drug that is shown to have immunosupressive effects?

Posted by: apy | June 29, 2007 6:00 PM

Adele said

The disgrace here "Evion" is people who can't come up with one original objection to solid HIV science in the last twenty years. Like asking for the "one" paper that proves this or that. Or insisting that "hundreds" or thousands or whatever of healthcare workers should have got AIDS when the reasons why it's lower were given again and again and then just this afternoon by people like DT on the other thread. Or saying yet again there aren't any placebo controlled studies when they know there are or they're just repeating what some other denialist said. Every denialist argument is like this at least the ones I've seen. They're old. They were mostly crap even when they first came out with a few exceptions that were answered since then. They require you to ignore the evidence or else lie about it like we've seen Andrew Maniotis do here and like Duesberg has done since the eighties.

1) Adele, you seem to be in agreement that there is not one paper that proves HIV causes AIDS? Right? And at the same time, you seem to feel that there is no problem with the fact that there is not one paper that proves HIV causes AIDS. We dont need any papers that prove HIV causes AIDS. Do you agree with this Adele? How about two, three four or five papers? How many papers does it take to prove HIV causes AIDS? 100 papers, a thousand, the entire medical literature? Is this what you think Adele, that a collection of thousands of papers collectively prove HIV causes AIDS, but they cannot be listed individually? Correct? Which is it Adele? Will you be evasive and/or lie about this or give it straight this time?

2) Adele, you seem to agree that there are enough occupationally acquired AIDS reported in the medical literature to preserve the hypothesis that HIV acquired by health care workers causes AIDS? What about Brazil?

"Brazil ranks among the countries with the highest numbers of AIDS case reports in the world. By the end of the year 2000, 203,353 cases and 100,494 deaths due to AIDS had been reported by the National System. Although there are 99 documented or possible cases of occupational exposure to HIV in the world literature, no cases had been reported in Brazil up to the present date."

The first case of AIDS due to occupational exposure in Brazil

Brazilian Journal of Infectious Diseases vol.6 no.3 Salvador June 2002, , Naila Janilde Seabra Santos et al.

This is the number 200,000 AIDS cases by end of year 2000, and ZERO reported occupationally acquired AIDS, until this ONE case of AIDS? One is a very lonely number. Sorry, Adele, although I would like to be a believer, you are not very convincing. Remember the numbers, 200,000 AIDS cases and ONE nurse gets AIDS from a patient, thats ALL. Something smells fishy in Denmark.

3) Adele, this is what your DT colleague says is a placebo for the placebo controlled nevirapine trial. The drug group received nevirapine and 2 more toxic HIV drugs, the placebo group received a placebo (instead of nevirapine) and two more toxic HIV drugs. Adele, so you really believe that this charade is a placebo controlled trial? The "placebo" is in actuality 2 toxic drugs. What ever happened to the old way, one group receiving the drug and the other group receiving a placebo? (not a placebo and two toxic drugs?) This is very sick twisted logic which is a disgrace to humanity and medical science. Do you agree with this Adele, that 2 toxic drugs can be called a "placebo"? You want to talk about crap? This is crap.

Posted by: Evion | June 29, 2007 6:15 PM

If you want to compare drugs, why not compare those on any antiretrovirals to a group of patients only on LDN. Let's see which group fares the best and who lives the longest. It would not be unethical to do this because those of us on LDN are on it by choice and it is being prescribed legally. Maybe some are afraid of the results that would be found.

Posted by: noreen Martin | June 29, 2007 6:29 PM

If you were the scientists you romanticize yourselves to be, you'd understand that any question or challenge can be revisited, including a complete revision of a paradigm:)

Well said, Dan! Exactly the point that I have been making in another thread while addressing the anti-scientific stance of Dr. Aust.

Since Tara added this "damage control" post right after my last post in the other thread, I'm reposting part of my "two questions" post, here. Posters like "Joe" seem to believe that ordinary people have no business assessing the successes and failures of HIV science, even though the failures can easily be identified as outnumbering the successes by a wide margin. He obviously doesn't realize how dangerous his obsequious attitude is--particularly given the high-levels of corruption in modern medicine. It isn't Duesberg stance that is irrational, but rather, it is "Joe" and his eagerness to legitmize the "secret" language of HIV that is irrational.

_____________________

Because people fool themselves without knowing they are doing it. -- Dr. Aust

Your most recent testimonial proves that you understand a thing or two about fooling yourself. I've got two very basic questions for you, Doctor...two questions questions that you do not seem to want to honestly answer, yet they are the best place to begin our evaluation.

Are people still dying from HIV/AIDS?
and
How are they dying?

Before we answer these questions, let's look at why HIV apologists, such as yourself, try to invalidate my right, and more importantly, the rights of fellow scientists to ask these two very basic questions. This implicit censorship, among professionals, is very telling. After all, the evidence exposing HIV/AIDS as a mistaken explanation is quite apparent; twenty years of shoddy science is not easily defended. I find one example particularly telling; the ridiculous back-peddling often employed by those who "study" HIV is unmistakable, and their scripted recantations are downright Orwellian--such an unbecoming environment for producing good science--yet, Dr. Aust, and others on this blog, prefer to remain oblivious.

Science is not alone in the loss of self-correcting mechanisms. The hollow testimonies of the numerous shills in our society are unavoidable, and they would be almost entertaining, that is, if they weren't so goddamn disconcerting. Whether its housing, education, or health care, those in control of the funding have proved to be more interested in using that money to increase personal wealth, to obscene levels, in spite of obvious detriments to the integrity of the social institutions they purport to serve. The economy (housing bubble), civic responsibility (cynical citizens who don't vote) and personal health (profiteering trumps care concerns) are all riddled with damning examples of frequent and blatant abuses of public trust by those in control. Consequently, a culture of accepted corruption--across institutions--has become normalized while legitimate endeavors and concerns suffer from neglect. Such massive corruption has eroded the self-correcting mechanisms that previously assured the integrity of these institutions, and those responsible for the decline should be held accountable. In fact, many of those who now hold professional status should lose it.

Where HIV/AIDS is concerned, a system of rituals and a "secret" language disguised as specialized science has replaced the system that has worked for so long--a system based primarily on independent inquiry, real Science! Scientists and doctors, alike, are complicit in allowing this to happen. The abandonment of "do no harm" is an important component to understanding how this could happen to such a damaging degree. Once again, professional complicity was absolutely required before such specious science could ever become normalized. Don't you agree, Dr. Aust? Regardless, accountability will be necessary before change can occur.

__________________________

The negative results of endemic corruption are obvious throughout our society, and the pathetic and impotent claims produced by HIV science provide some of the most absurd examples:

"HIV is very enigmatic but always fatal...well, at some point in the future it's fatal...we just can't tell you the when or the how, unless you take these pills 12 times a day; then, we can tell you...because we can monitor your "markers" for HIV, as you get sicker from the drugs. Also, we'll continue to ignore these debilitating and deadly side effects, while also refusing to recognize the irrelevance of HIV markers, in spite of research suggesting otherwise. We also ignore the obvious changes in cause of death and the disparities in disease presentation in different parts of the world. Remember, it's a very enigmatic virus...just take your pills and the side effects, take those too...they're part of the deal. You'll die if you don't. Did I mention that? We haven't even gotten to the conflicting mutation theories but boy do they mutate..."

Dr. Aust, you and your colleagues, have had twenty years to come up with an answer, and this is the best that you can do. HIV/AIDS is a money tree for Big Pharma, and it's inability to explain the realities of this disease condition are becoming ever more apparent. Your posturing has grown tiresome, and it is a danger to public health.
____________________
Finally, let's answer those two basic questions, shall we?

Are people still dying from HIV/AIDS?

Yes...the number that are dying from "AIDS" is virtually unchanged. While the ranks of healthy HIV positives has grown due to scaremongering and increased testing, the connection between the two appears to be quite dubious. Thus, HIV positivity is a red herring, unless of course you continue to shoot Meth and/or begin a regimen of life-ending retrovirals.

How are they dying?

This is where things get even more interesting...whether apologists will admit it or not, many more "AIDS" patients are dying from the medications. Organ failure, including liver and heart, along with physical deformities have become normalized and synonymous with HIV/AIDS, which is in stark contrast to the defining ailments that characterized the condition early on. Of course, the apologists refuse to acknowledge the significance of this fact and continue to argue that the alternatives are worse, but as Noreen and myself understand, the "real" alternatives can mean the difference between living and dying. This is a human tragedy, and the killing by prescription has to stop.

As for HIV, the only thing that mutates faster than the virus are the laughable theories used to explain-away its numerous explanatory deficiencies.

Kevin

Posted by: Kevin | June 29, 2007 6:32 PM

"You seem to have lost interest in animal models"
What do you mean? I asked if there was an animal model for what dissidents think causes AIDS. Do I have to mention it in every post from then on?

noreen Martin,
What is LDN?

"Are you suggesting philantropist millionaires should fund alternative medical research with no view to profit? "
I'm just suggesting a possibility to acquire funds to research it. Someone expressed an issue with testing dissident theories due to lack of funds, but if many of the head dissidents are very wealthy perhaps they could fund their own research. If it pays off they could possibly pull a profit out of it, depending on what they find. I'm not sure why you feel the need to accuse me of being a commie or an islamist, I don't see what that has to do with funding research.

Posted by: apy | June 29, 2007 6:42 PM

So what's the balance on Harvey Bialy's bank account, and who else is rich, Ape? How much does it cost to keep theAIDS Inc. research machine running for a year? I'll give you a clue, it ain't millions.

Posted by: Pope | June 29, 2007 6:54 PM

Having had AIDS and many of the AIDS-defining diseases, this drug has helped to keep me healthy. Since being on it, I haven't even had the common cold.

Noreen, I've been trying to get my HMO-doctor to prescribe LDN for me, so that I can add it to my regimen. It's a new HMO-doctor, so he's only known me since I've recovered my health, though he has access to my entire health history since I had my files sent to him. Even so, he refuses to prescribe it for me. I'm looking for a new doctor but, of course, my experience is that they are all mostly the same. I guess I could drive 400 miles to see the holistic doctor who helped me get well. Perhaps, I'll just call him, but I was hoping my insurance will cover it.

Is the $22/month, pre or post insurance, Noreen?

Kevin

It so hard to get good care in the country. I highly recommend Sicko to all the blog readers here. It opens nationwide tonight, I believe.

Posted by: Kevin | June 29, 2007 7:38 PM

Kevin,
The cost is before insurance, plus shipping because the drug has to be filled by a compounding pharmacy. Some of these are listed on the lowdosenaltrexone.org site. I hope that you can find a holistic, environmental or other open-minded doctor who will fill the prescription. I wouldn't try AIDS or infectious disease doctors because most will not go there, which is a shame because this drug is usefull and helping so many. What section of the country do you live in?

Posted by: noreen Martin | June 29, 2007 9:28 PM

His name was Ryan Boelle. Everybody knew him as Angels Boi because he had a huge crush on the actor who played the part. Ryan was a small person, had a weak immune system, and was a homosexual. Ryan had a fight with his lover, they split, and during the split Ryan went to a sex party. There he was among a number of people who fellated an HIV positive man. Ryan had a tooth abcess.

Ryan quickly developed a high virus count, concurrently his T-cell count crashed. He had trouble with the initial cocktail. He had trouble with getting on Medicaid because state bureaucrats had to have everything done right. Because of this is was off his medication for some time.

Finally things got straightened out, he started his drug regime again, and he got better. But damage had already been done. Ryan would spend the last two years of his life swinging between full-blown AIDS and having the virus under control. Each time the virus held sway more damage was done.

He lost energy. He healed more and more slowly. It took more and more medication to suppress the virus. Until, finally, there was nothing that could be done. About three years ago his family had him taken off life-support. He died an hour later.

Ryan was a friend of mine. Never met him in person, only over the Internet, but he was a friend. He was bright, lively, inquisitive, and enthusiastic. He loved life, he loved people, he loved Dungeons & Dragons. He was a constant source of ideas and advice regarding the game. It hurt him when he had to quit the boards where he discussed his hobby. It hurt even more when his health became so bad he could no longer play. Yet through all his troubles he reached out to people to help, to advise, to communicate. For all throughout his ordeal he loved people.

Ryan did abuse drugs when he was younger. He did have some at the party, for the first time in years. His T-cells crashed at the same time as his viral count exploded. With his weak immune system you'd think his previous drug history would've led to drug triggered AIDS back when he was a teen. If drug abuse does cause AIDS then why did he get better whenever his viral count went down? If the drugs do nothing, then why did viral count drop when he was on medication, and rise when he wasn't? Why is this true for people besides Ryan Boelle?

The HIV-AIDS connection has been tested by people who know the scientific method. Nobody has yet shown a more accurate explanation. I don't think they're even trying, despite decades of opportunity. HIV denial has become a matter of faith, and that is poisonous to critical thought.

Posted by: Alan Kellogg | June 30, 2007 3:19 AM

HIV denial has become a matter of faith, and that is poisonous to critical thought. -- Alan Kellogg

Bullshit.
Your telling of Ryan's story is a blatant propaganda piece, and it is AIDS propaganda that is poisonous to critical thought. For another example of the AIDS propaganda machine, one only has to review the literature and choose from the myriad of insanities contained therein. A particular favorite of mine is Immune Reconstitution Syndrome

Rather, than admit that long-term immune reconstitution is impossible for those on HAART, the AIDS propaganda machine has created an entirely new syndrome to absolve the drugs from their obvious responsibility for further compromising the immune systems of patiets. Unbelievable! One might be led to believe by such antics, that long-term immune reconstitution is not the goal of current HIV treatment, and that's a crime against all of us. A favorite quote from the link:

"After a couple weeks on his HIV regimen, he developed a fever, blurred vision, and swelling around his eye. The odd thing was that his CD4 count had gone up dramatically since starting HIV medications. So what was going on? His immune system was better (oh, really?), yet his eye looked horrible. LZ was seen by his doctor and was diagnosed with immune reconstitution syndrome."

Brilliant. It's the drugs, Stupid. As Noreen can affirm, a patient's well-being is a far better indicator of immune health and a far better template by which to base future care decisions than surrogate markers. For example, if someone has low CD4's but is not ill, don't make them ill just so your "surrogate marker theory" looks good. If Ryan would have had doctors who actually cared about his well-being, perhaps, they would not have been so quick to poison him to death, Alan.

______________________

Thank you for the LDN info, Noreen. I'll try to find a physician who'll prescribe it. My insurance won't cover it unless my HMO-doctor prescribes it. I used to have separated drug coverage which allowed me to choose any doctor, but that changed this year, as my HMO tauted a "new and improved" coverage plan. Yeah, right....

22 bucks isn't so bad but it's the principle, and it's further prove of just how rotten health care in this country actually is. Ignorant posters like "Raven" may be satisfied with our 37th ranking, right behind Costa Rica, but I think we can do better.

_______

That's for funny stuff, JD. You aim is right on target. Injecting a little humor into this mess is always welcome, if done with tact. Thanks.

Kevin

Posted by: Kevin | June 30, 2007 1:18 PM

I'm talking about a public jury of millions, not a group of scientists who have many conflicts of interest, and many others that are afraid to speak out. A public jury usually gets the verdict right in a criminal case, and experts because of conflicts of interest get it wrong in our judicial system.

The real reason there is no public debate is because of fear, ie millions of people would start asking tough questions, so the hiv orthodoxy, much like a prosecutor with a bad case, does everything from letting the public hear another side of the argument. A good prosecutor would not care about the public hearing another side of an issue, thats why John Moore is spending so much time trying to prevent people from hearing an argument, he's insecure.

John Moore is like a corrupt prosecutor who tells a jury "you cant hear another side of an argument because you might beleive it" Any responsible juror would demand to hear both sides of an issue to get to the truth.

If you have read Orwells's 1984, bad science/ideas can advance in many countries that don't allow the public to hear both sides of an issue. For example, in Mao's China or Stalin's Russia if you were an economist and you wanted to publish an academic paper saying their economic policies were fraudulent, would the academic establishment have ever allowed it?

Of course not, because in many societies the academic establishment is heavily influenced by government/orthodox propaganda that exerts it's influnece in several ways such as financial influence, and other more subtle ways, as Orwell spoke about via "Thought control"

Again here is a list of many scientists that have questioned HIV at one time or another.

Luc montagnier
Shyh Ching Lo Cheif Of the infectious unit of the AFIP
Walter Gilbert nobel prize winner
Kary Mullis nobel prize winner
Peter Duesberg Retroviral expert
Richard strohman UCB

Many more

Millions of Americans have a right to hear the other arguments and make up our own mind.

Posted by: cooler | June 30, 2007 3:01 PM

Tara,

you write that the 'evolution deniers' debate has already taken place 'in the literature', but 'hasn't withstood the test.'

I see a debate ongoing, spilling into the public sphere, gaining momentum and a great deal of ink spilled in the press. I am familiar with the historical debates, reaching back to Ernst Mayr, I know of no serious scientist who would claim any debate to be over because of putsch-like arguments forwarded by a medical elite.

I am not a Christian, by the way, and I am agnostic on most evolutionary claims, although I reject the neo-Darwinian simplification of descent as a means and natural selection - ie sexual congress - as the means for speciation.

The symbiogenicists are much further along the right path, in my opinion.

I think that is an expression you should learn, quickly: "In my opinion."

Science is always an opinion. The a