Mbeki: still in denial

In our paper on HIV denial, Steven and I started the introduction off with a note about South African president Thabo Mbeki:

This denial was highlighted on an international level in 2000, when South African president Thabo Mbeki convened a group of panelists to discuss the cause of AIDS, acknowledging that he remained unconvinced that HIV was the cause. His ideas were derived at least partly from material he found on the Internet. Though Mbeki agreed later that year to step back from the debate, he subsequently suggested a re-analysis of health spending with a decreased emphasis on HIV/AIDS.

Though he’s not been publicly vocal about his views in recent years, it has been suggested that they’ve not changed–that he still remains unconvinced, at best, of HIV causation of AIDS. An article in today’s Guardian suggests he’s ready to start speaking on it again–and it’s the same old schtick:

President Thabo Mbeki remains an “Aids dissident” who has told a biographer that he regrets bowing to pressure from his cabinet to “withdraw from the debate” over the disease ravaging South Africa.

***

Thabo Mbeki: The Dream Deferred describes how the president contacted the author earlier this year to reiterate some of the views that caused uproar in the medical community before Mr Mbeki stopped talking publicly about Aids several years ago. Mr Gevisser also describes how the president’s view of the disease was shaped by an obsession with race, the legacy of colonialism and “sexual shame”.

The book will reinforce the view of Mr Mbeki’s critics who say his unorthodox opinions have cost hundreds of thousands of lives by delaying the distribution of medicines, and that the health minister, Manto Tshabalala-Msimang, has continued these views.

This may sound familiar to those who’ve read our PLoS Medicine paper (or who’ve simply dealt with pharma-phobic deniers) as well:

The president said he was seeking an open debate but portrayed those who disagreed with him – who include Nelson Mandela, trade union leaders whose members were dying in large numbers and Aids activists – as in the pay of the drug companies.

And while Mbeki attributes much power to “drug companies,” it sounds like many who’ve disagreed with his stance on AIDS have been fearful to tell him as much:

Mr Gevisser says that while Mr Mbeki has never explicitly denied the link between HIV and Aids, he is a “profound sceptic”. The issue came to a head in the cabinet in 2002 after Mr Mbeki’s political advisers and some ministers told him it was running out of control and damaging South Africa’s reputation, which had been so high under Mr Mandela’s leadership.

“What happened was not, quite, a rebellion,” writes Mr Gevisser. “Only one elected ANC representative, Pregs Govender, the chair of a parliamentary committee on the status of women, resigned and publicly criticised Mbeki. And even behind closed doors only one or two people actually had the courage to tell Mbeki they thought he was wrong.”

Comments

  1. #1 Dave S.
    November 6, 2007

    Any quality political leader worth his salt will go out of way just to make sure there are people close to him that will disagree with him sometimes. Sadly, there are few political leaders anywhere like that any more.

  2. #2 wheatdogg
    November 6, 2007

    Stand by for the deluge of denialists hijacking this thread. I’ll bet the first one will appear within the first 10 posts.

    Mbeki is stubborn. Perhaps he is unwilling to admit he was wrong, or unwilling to admit others may be right. Either way, he is not helping the situation in the RSA at all, and should shut the hell up about AIDS.

  3. #3 Ex-drone
    November 6, 2007

    I take it that Mr Mbeki is willing to be injected with HIV to prove his point? I understand that, after the demonstration, he can heal himself with traditional medicines. No? Not stepping forward, sir?

  4. #4 ElkMountainMan
    November 6, 2007

    I am interested in hearing Dr. Braganza’s take on this story, since he seems well-informed on SA politics and also stated that Mbeki had forsaken Duesberg’s denialism.

    Sometimes I try to decide which is better: a “stupid” leader who delegates to experts or a brilliant leader, full of ideas (like Mbeki), who insists on making his or her own decisions against conventional wisdom? Of course there are dangers in both. Why do we so rarely find a brilliant leader who is willing to take advice from brilliant experts?

  5. #5 Chris Noble
    November 6, 2007

    This is bizarre.

    Mbeki’s official biographer claimed that Mbkei was never a Denialist!

    Now in fiction: the president on Aids

    Is Mbeki now denying that he denied that he was a Denialist?

    Does Mbeki still claim that he doesn’t know anybody who died from AIDS?

  6. #6 pat
    November 6, 2007

    “Stand by for the deluge of denialists hijacking this thread. I’ll bet the first one will appear within the first 10 posts.

    Posted by: wheatdogg | November 6, 2007 6:29 PM”

    “Once again, I wonder how long it will take the HIV/AIDS denialists to hijack this thread.

    Posted by: SLC | September 19, 2007 8:29 AM”

    “Once again, I wonder how long it will take for the HIV/AIDS deniers to hijack this thread. Counting one, two, three, …

    Posted by: SLC | October 10, 2007 5:12 PM”

    “The AIDS/HIV denialist whackjobs whould be hijacking this thread any time now.

    Posted by: SLC | October 25, 2007 5:50 PM”

    “I wonder how long it will take for the HIV/AIDS denialists to pollute this thread with their bogus claims?

    Posted by: SLC | September 14, 2007 9:23 AM”

  7. #7 pat
    November 6, 2007

    You have actually found something you can predict! congratulations!

  8. #8 Tara C. Smith
    November 6, 2007

    Chris,

    I think it comes down to the technicality:

    In the Guardian article:

    Mr Gevisser says that while Mr Mbeki has never explicitly denied the link between HIV and Aids, he is a “profound sceptic”.

    and in Nicoli’s article:

    Claiming that Mbeki was not an Aids denialist because he “never said that HIV does not cause Aids” is a red herring.

    Mbeki can claim he was never a “denier” because he never explicitly said (to my knowledge) that HIV doesn’t cause AIDS–though policies he implemented and invitations he made to deniers shows otherwise.

  9. #9 Mountain Man
    November 6, 2007

    President Mbeki is a bona fide hero. He prevented the pharmaceutical cabal from polluting the country with toxic AZT. Probably saved hundreds of thousands of lives.

    Glad he got re-elected in a landslide.

  10. #10 bdkeller
    November 6, 2007

    Sigh…
    As someone who has held a child that died because of Mbeki’s denialism, Mountain Man makes me sick. Of course, the children at the same orphanage suddenly stopped dying when they were put on antiretrovirals like AZT. Fascinating coincidence? No, Mbeki is guilty of negligent homicide, if not worse.

  11. #11 Mountain Man
    November 6, 2007

    bdkeller,

    Hey moron — do you really think giving cancer chemo (AZT) to pregnant woman is a good thing?

    If so, that is why you are a loser on the internet, while Mbeki worked tirelessly at Mandela’s side to smash apartheid and now runs a country of millions.

    Go crawl under your rock — or better yet, take some AZT for 30 days and tell us what it does to you.

    Mbeki is a hero — I hope upon his retirement they make him General Secretary of the UN.

  12. #12 bdkeller
    November 6, 2007

    You do realize that insulting me for using the internet is rather ironic, eh?

    The question of whether or not giving AZT to pregnant women is a good thing is answered by research, not by your rantings. Because women treated with AZT reduce the likelihood of their children getting HIV (which leads to AIDS and eventual death without treatment), yes, I think it’s a very good thing.

    Mbeki’s admirable work against apartheid does not make his views on HIV/AIDS correct. If it did, by that logic Mandela’s even greater work against apartheid would justify his stance (which happens to be correct) that HIV does cause AIDS.

  13. #13 Mountain Man
    November 7, 2007

    Jeez, bkeller, you’re like a trained seal. Good at regurgitating a narrative, terrible at any real thought. You sound like one of those gullible assholes who thought it was a good idea to invade Iraq or that driving a Prius somehow makes a difference in the environment.

    Here, Moron, is some research on AZT, a deadly cancer chemo drug:

    Within 48 weeks on AZT, 172 (56%) out of 308 Australian AIDS patients developed one or more new AIDS diseases, including pneumonia and candidiasis [1]. This indicates that AZT induces AIDS diseases with less than 1 year and thus much faster than the 10 years HIV is said to need to cause AIDS [2]. Likewise, no therapeutic benefits were observed in a study of 365 AIDS patients from France after six months on AZT, but new AIDS diseases and approximately 50% leukopenias and 20% deaths occurred within nine months on AZT, Further, no therapeutic benefits were observed in four Norwegian AIDS patients after six months on AZT [3].

    The annual lymphoma incidence of AZT-treated AIDS patients was reported to be 9% by the National Cancer Institute and was calculated to be 50% over 3 years [4]. The lymphoma incidence of untreated HIV-positive AIDS risk groups is 0.3% per year and 0.9% per 3 years, derived from the putative average progression rate of 10 years from HIV to AIDS [2,5,6] and the 3% incidence of lymphoma in AIDS patients [7]. Thus the lymphoma incidence is 30 to 50 times higher in AZT-treated than in untreated HIV-positive counterparts. In addition, “during the past three years [of AZT therapy] a progressive increase in the number of [AIDS] patients dying from lymphoma…”, to a current total of 16%, was noted in 1991 in a group of 346 AIDS patients in London, most of whom were on AZT.

    Citations:

    1. Swanson et al,(1990) Factors influencing outcome of treatment with zidovudine of patients with AIDS in Australia. AIDS 4, 749.

    2. Lemp et al, (1990) Projections of AIDS morbidity and mortality in San Francisco. J Am Med Assoc 263, 1497

    3. Reinvang et al, (1991) Only temporary improvement in imparied neuropsychological function in AIDS patients treated with zidovudine. AIDS 5, 228

    4. Pluda et al,(1990) Development of non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma in a cohort of patients with immunodeficiency virus (HIV) infection on long-term antiretroviral therapy. Ann Int Med 113, 276.

    5. Duesberg (1991) AIDS epidemiology: inconsistencies with human immunodeficiency virus and with infectious disease. PNAS 88, 1575

    6. Moss et al, (1988) The cause of AIDS. Science 242, 997

    7. Centers for Disease Control (1991) HIV/AIDS Surveillance. (January) US Department of Health and Human Services, Atlanta, GA

  14. #14 Chris Noble
    November 7, 2007

    Glad he got re-elected in a landslide.

    My impression was that the ANC did their best to eliminate HIV/AIDS as an election issue at the previous election.

    They agreed to start distributing ARVs and Mbeki shut up. The silence was deafening. He stopped making any Denialist statements and the official ANC policy was that HIV causes AIDS and that ARVs are the appropriate treatment.

    If Mbeki had any guts he would have taken his HIV denialism to the election.

    Why didn’t he come out and say what he apparently thinks? He’s obviously a clever politician and knew that he would lose votes from many of the voters who had lost family members to AIDS. Much better to keep quiet and instead do your best to slow down the distribution of ARVs.

  15. #15 bdkeller
    November 7, 2007

    Trained seals must bark loudest at other seals. You say that I regurgitate a narrative (my personal story of involvement with children with HIV/AIDS is original, as were my comments on Mbeki and Mandela), and then you copy and past large sections of research from virusmyth.net. This is called irony.

    As I am not a trained seal, I will however read the articles (not just the conclusions) you cited when I get the chance. It may take me a day or two to do them justice as I have a genetics test coming up soon. (Ie., I need to go memorize some more of that baseless Mendelian dogma.)

    Your characterization is again, rather inaccurate. I think invading Iraq was a terrible idea and driving a Prius is more about impressing the Joneses than having an appreciable impact on the environment. You’re right on one count; I do have an anus. I’m sure you’ll find a way to sprinkle any future responses with more invective, and I look forward to it. It’s one of the main reasons I respond.

  16. #16 Chris Noble
    November 7, 2007

    Within 48 weeks on AZT, 172 (56%) out of 308 Australian AIDS patients developed one or more new AIDS diseases, including pneumonia and candidiasis [1]. This indicates that AZT induces AIDS diseases with less than 1 year and thus much faster than the 10 years HIV is said to need to cause AIDS [2].

    What sort of mind could possibly distort these papers in this way? It can’t be simply ignorance. It has to be concious deception.

    In the first study all patients had already been diagnosed with AIDS and had opportunistic infections.

    Figure 2 shows the survival of people in this category in the period before AZT and the survival when given AZT. I can’t imagine what happens when “Mountain Man” looks at this figure. Do his frontal lobes shut down? Do his magical denialist spectacles turn opaque?

    In the period before AZT only about half of the patients were alive 1 year after diagnosis with AIDS. To claim that this paper demonstrates that AZT causes AIDS is monumentally stupid. AZT increased the survival rate.

    The Concorde study gave 1000mg per day of AZT to the immediate group and a placebo to the deferred group. During in 55 weeks only 24 out of 505 in the immediate group developed advanced ARC or AIDS.

    The Concorde study completely refutes the idea that AZT causes AIDS. If AZT caused AIDS you would expect that the immediate group would get AIDS at a higher rate than the deferred group who received a placebo. This was not observed. “Mountain Man”‘s assertion that AZT caused AIDS within a year is also refuted.

    The only question that I have is why does “Mountain Man” provide citations when they contradict his claims? Does he think that people won’t read them? Does he think everybody else is stupid? Is he so blinded by his own stupidity that he can’t comprehend these studies?

  17. #17 Chris Noble
    November 7, 2007

    Good at regurgitating a narrative,…

    I should have checked before I assumed that you had the mental capacity to compose the pseudoscientific nonsense you posted.

    There is a quaint scientific custom whereby text is attributed to the original authors. If you copy and paste text without attribution it is called plagiarism. I doubt that Duesberg is going to complain but it is still plagiarism. Changing the reference numbers to hide this fact suggests that it was deliberate.

    That explains why you cited this paper

    1. Swanson et al,(1990) Factors influencing outcome of treatment with zidovudine of patients with AIDS in Australia. AIDS 4, 749.

    You haven’t read it. You are just relying on Duesberg’s misinterpretation.

    Go to the library. Get the paper. Read all of it. Look at figure 2.

  18. #18 Chris Noble
    November 7, 2007

    President Mbeki is a bona fide hero. He prevented the pharmaceutical cabal from polluting the country with toxic AZT. Probably saved hundreds of thousands of lives.

    How Mbeki wanted to poison his people with Virodene(TM)

  19. #19 Neverapeen
    November 7, 2007

    Mbeki’s South Africa is the only government in the world to reject the HIV causes AIDS toxic drug propaganda. They recognize it for what it really is. In a phrase so aptly coined by Rebecca Culshaw, HIV drugs for Africa is a form of genocide masquerading as philanthropy. South Africa is a test case scenario for the political battle between big pharma paid activists who harass government officials, and the a democratically elected government opposed to iatragenocide.

    South Africa has had its long years of suffering under apartheid and colonial racist rule which have made it wary of further oppression at the hands of a western medical system which has blundered itself into the untenable and fraudulent hypothesis that toxic drugs should be given to Africans suffering from chronic medical problems of poverty, malnutrition, tuberculosis, contaminated water.

    Mbeki and his colleagues have tremendous courage and wisdom to lead their people away from the corruption of Big Pharma money and toxic drugs. For the benefit of their people, may these great leaders continue in strength and health for many years.

  20. #20 David Marjanović
    November 7, 2007

    Mbeki is a hero — I hope upon his retirement they make him General Secretary of the UN.

    Being a hero and being infallible is not the same thing.

    How old are you not to have noticed that…?

  21. #21 pat
    November 7, 2007

    For years South Africa fought for it’s right to acquire inexpensive generic ARV’s for its people. For years the HIV team has DENIED them this right.

    United Press International – November 1, 2001

    Activists: Poor countries need AIDS meds
    Kelly Hearn

    WASHINGTON (UPI) — Under heavy security, activists converged Thursday on the office of U.S. Trade Representative Robert Zoellick, calling for a relaxation of drug patents, a move that would let Third World countries produce generic medicines for millions of impoverished AIDS sufferers.

    The protests, organized by the AIDS activist group ACTUP based in Philadelphia, comes a week before a key World Trade Organization meeting in Doha, Qatar, and days after U.S. officials threatened to break a patent for the antibiotic Cipro, forcing German drug maker Bayer Corp. to lower its prices.

    “(President) Bush talks of breaking the Cipro patent after four people died (of anthrax). But he refused to extend AIDS drugs to 30 million AIDS suffers, most of whom are black,” said Asia Russell of Health Gap, an HIV/AIDS drug activist organization. “It is a racist policy.”

    Btw: we still hear this one thrown about wildly:

    “South Africa is currently experiencing one of the most severe AIDS epidemics in the world. By the end of 2005, there were five and a half million people living with HIV in South Africa, and almost 1,000 AIDS deaths occurring every day.1″ -avert.org

    according to Statistics SA-www.statssa.gov.za

    Table 4.4:
    The ten leading underlying natural causes of death, 2004

    10. Human immunodeficiency virus [HIV] disease
    total deaths: (hold tight) 14’532 or 2,5%

    Ok, who the f..k is pulling my leg?
    And people wonder why Mbeki is skeptical about the “Aids world”

  22. #22 jspreen
    November 7, 2007

    I think Tara incessantly posts a blog entry about AIDS denial to get into that TOP FIVE / MOST EMAILED list as often as possible.

    Well, who cares. I think these are great threads, it’s a real treat. Once you’ve unraveled the HIV=Aids nonsense, discussing with any member of the Scientific Community defending the equation is like playing soccer with guys who have only one leg but who nevertheless boast about being the only people in the world to know how to play that ball. What did I say? One leg? No legs at all, that’s closer to reality. And drunk!
    No wonder the denialist camp is leading about 98757 to 0.
    No, 98757 to 1. I once scored against my own camp when I wrote amoebea instead of Plasmodium spp.

  23. #23 blf
    November 7, 2007

    Tara omitted the claim in the article I found even more disturbing (emphasis added):

    [A] 100-page paper secretly authored by Mr Mbeki and distributed anonymously among the ANC leadership six years ago &hellip compared Aids scientists to latter-day Nazi concentration camp doctors and portrayed black people who accepted orthodox Aids science as “self-repressed” victims of a slave mentality. It describes the “HIV/Aids thesis” as entrenched in “centuries-old white racist beliefs and concepts about Africans”.

    That he’s still some sort of denier is a “dog bites man” story. Not a big surprise.

    It’s the claim he apparently thought, and may still think, that HIV/AIDS researchers are “Nazi concentration camp doctors” is what astonished me. That’s seriously muddled “thinking”. I’m sure Orac could expand on this point!

  24. #24 pat
    November 7, 2007

    Can we see this secrtely authored paper or should we just blow wind around as usual.

  25. #25 Andrew Dodds
    November 7, 2007

    http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/life/life_expectancy.txt

    Note South Africa life expectancy:

    1960:49
    1970:53
    1980:57
    1990:62
    1999:48

    Is there a denier explanation for this? Why is it that the following countries (and ONLY the following countries) see double digit life expectancy drops from 1990 to 1999?

    Botswana
    Lesotho
    Zambia
    Zimbabwe

  26. #26 blf
    November 7, 2007

    Can we see this secrtely [sic] authored paper or should we just blow wind around as usual.

    The Guardian‘s article reports Mr Gevisser (authour of Mr Mbeki’s biography) has two copies of this paper, an older one and a updated one. The updated one was sent to him by Mr Mbeki (according to the article).

    It would indeed be useful to see the paper (either, and ideally both, versions). Based on the information in the article, four possible sources to ask for a copy spring to mind: Mr Mbeki, the ANC, Mr Gevisser, and The Guardian. Also, I assume the bibliography Mr Gevisser is writing(? has written?) will include more details.

    I do not understand what “we should just blow wind around as usual” means. Please explain.

  27. #27 pat
    November 7, 2007

    “blowing wind around” is just another way to say “throwing gossip around” like the 1000 S Africans that die daily due to AIDS. In other words, we should wait to see if such a paper even exists before we opine about Mbeki’s statec of “denial”.

    PS: [sic] looks ridiculous on a blog thread.

  28. #28 ElkMountainMan
    November 7, 2007

    Just in case anyone was fooled by a denialist’s (Michael’s?) use of the name “Mountain Man,” I did not make the disgusting comments about genocide and AZT above.

    Of course, if I were Michael, I wouldn’t want to take credit for my own drivel, either.

  29. #29 pat
    November 7, 2007

    Andrew, no one is deniying that death in SA and Africa is HIGH. It is much higher than it probably ever was. To think this supports AIDS is ludicrous. Only a reality denialist would think that poverty and health has improved an inch these last couple of decades. The high death rate in Africa can easily be explained by the western world’s behavior towards that continent. African’s are poorer today than they were ever before and not because of AIDS but because of another epidemic, namely the epidemic economic plunder of that continent. Dare investigate what it is the World bank does there and you will find wholesale theft taking place. AIDS is just what we say so we don’t have to blame ourselves for it. With AIDS we can blame the lusting masses of Africans.

  30. #30 Tara C. Smith
    November 7, 2007

    I think Tara incessantly posts a blog entry about AIDS denial to get into that TOP FIVE / MOST EMAILED list as often as possible.

    Incessantly? Typically I do one or two posts on HIV a month–and it’s not always denial. Y’all are the ones who keep them running for months at a time.

    It’s the claim he apparently thought, and may still think, that HIV/AIDS researchers are “Nazi concentration camp doctors” is what astonished me.

    Mbeki has a flair for that. There was another one we included in our PLoS paper, where he compared scientists to those facilitating witch hunts: “In an earlier period in human history, these [dissidents] would be heretics that would be burnt at the stake!”

  31. #31 jspreen
    November 7, 2007

    Of course, the children at the same orphanage suddenly stopped dying when they were put on antiretrovirals like AZT.

    Hey! Come over here, put your name on the bible, swear upon what’s dearest to you that you’ll speak the truth and nothing but the truth, look me straight in the eyes and repeat that The children suddenly stopped dying when they were put on antiretrovirals like AZT.
    If you dare do that, then it must be true that the kids stopped dying. In which case it’s certainly not because of AZT but because caring and well equiped people in a well equiped health care center started to look after them. So then, continue with the good care, cut out the AZT and your results will improve tenfold.

  32. #32 cooler
    November 7, 2007

    Whats the problem, mbeki, like most intelligent people sees flaws in the hiv hypothesis. The more you use the term “denialist” the more it shows how little you know about science.

    150 chimps injected not one has died of aids after 20 years
    no explanation how a infection thats in 1/1000 blood tcells destroys the immune system
    MOst viruses wreak havok before antibodies, not 10 years later, thats why we get vaccines.
    NO study to see if people with this species specific microbe who dont have any other risk factors such as AZT, mycoplasmas, severe stress/drug abuse even get AIDS.

    NO original scientific papers published in between 1983-85 that prove the hypothesis using kochs postulates, or a rigorous matched controlled long term study. What are you left with, the cherry picked NIH fact sheet released years later!

    NO wonder you guys rely on censorship, if intelligent people heard of these arguments they’d dump the hiv dogma overnight.

  33. #33 Chris Rowan
    November 7, 2007

    Slightly OT, but Mbeki “being re-elected in a landslide” has very little to do with his actions as president. In present-day South Africa, the ANC always wins in a landslide.

  34. #34 pat
    November 7, 2007

    “Mbeki has a flair for that. There was another one we included in our PLoS paper, where he compared scientists to those facilitating witch hunts: “In an earlier period in human history, these [dissidents] would be heretics that would be burnt at the stake!”

    But Tara, you’re in denial. It is a fair comparison that some scientists facilitate which hunts.
    To quote THE eminent HIV scientist-come-witch hunter JP Moore:

    “This IS a war, there ARE no rules, and we WILL crush you, one at a time, completely and utterly (at least the more influential ones; foot-soldiers like you aren’t worth bothering with).”

    We just don’t use “witch” any more but the equally obscure “denialist” and we don’t burn them anymore; just sabotage their careers.

  35. #35 Colugo
    November 7, 2007

    AIDS researchers are “Nazis”? What do we call vitamin quacks who experiment on people with AIDS?

    Guardian, 2005:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/aids/story/0,7369,1483821,00.html

    “Dr [Mathias] Rath denounces Aids drugs and claims that all those who promote them are the paid lackeys of western drug companies. Vitamins, not drugs, are the cure for Aids – and cancer and diabetes too for that matter – he says, and there are those in the South African government who appear to give him credence. …

    Supporting him are some of the maverick US scientists whose argument that HIV was not the cause of Aids found favour with the South African president, Thabo Mbeki some years ago. They, too, said the drugs made people ill. David Rasnick, one of those scientists, has now joined Dr Rath in Cape Town. Both names appear in one of the New York Times adverts which details a “clinical pilot study” of 18 people with Aids in the Cape Town township of Khayelitsha who were said to improve after four weeks on the supplements.

    According to the Treatment Action Campaign in South Africa, which has cajoled and fought with the government for access to treatment for some of the 5 million now infected with HIV there, Dr Rath’s experiments with vitamins in Khayelitsha are probably illegal because he did not have approval to open clinics and offer any kind of therapy. Furthermore, the levels of vitamin C in the supplements were far beyond the 200mg a day recommended as safe by the US National Institutes of Health, says TAC, and could cause diarrhoea, which could kill somebody with Aids.”

  36. #36 Braganza
    November 7, 2007

    Pat,

    I appreciate the comments on poverty, but how do you explain that (in South Africa, as in others parts of the world) lifespan of HIV+s is smaller than the one of HIV-s.

    And has poverty just increased in South Africa now that the Apartheid has finished ? This would be anyway a proof that something is wrong in South Africa.

    ————

    On the patent thing, anyone can patent anything if he can provide proof of an innovative step. Therefore an opiate antagonist which would behave a bit better than LDN and would have a different structure is likely to be patentable. Big companies have databanks of products and can have easy access to databases of natural products that they can screen against a biological test, therefore find new chemical structures that can be optimised and could theoretically provide a new LDN.

    Is this likely ? If LDN can be used to control HIV/AIDS, everything would depend on the economics.

  37. #37 pat
    November 7, 2007

    “AIDS researchers are “Nazis”?

    I don’t know about all researches but some like JP Moore, Bermann and Weinberg definitly have fascist tendencies:

    “This IS a war, there ARE no rules, and we WILL crush you, one at a time, completely and utterly (at least the more influential ones; foot-soldiers like you aren’t worth bothering with).”

    this is not what we would expect from a “curious” mind.

    Also, I agree that anything that causes diarrhoea doesn’t make sense for people already suffering from AIDS BUT I must add that giving anything that causes bone marrow destruction to AIDS patients is equally stupid.
    David Rasnik may be wrong about HIV/AIDS and vitamins but he designs protease inhibitors for a living. He knows a thing or two about them no?

  38. #38 pat
    November 7, 2007

    Thank God scientists can’t make all the laws yet

    “Sigh…
    As someone who has held a child that died because of Mbeki’s denialism, Mountain Man makes me sick. Of course, the children at the same orphanage suddenly stopped dying when they were put on antiretrovirals like AZT. Fascinating coincidence? No, Mbeki is guilty of negligent homicide, if not worse.”

    Those children died of disease. Why isn’t Tara calling the pharmaceuticals and their political sheep murderers? They are the ones who for years REFUSED to let S. Africa get affordable ARV’s in effect FORCING Mbeki to wonder outload what the hell is going on and seek ALTERNATIVES. That is what I call “Denialism”: they forget! Anyone who blames Mbeki is in denial of historical FACTS!

  39. #39 pat
    November 7, 2007

    Thank you for your comments Braganza. S. Africa’s “explosive” death rate perhaps is best explained by the fact that black African’s were not allowed to die in white hospitals. No one kept a record of how and when they died so, of course, when Apartheid ended there was a very nasty surprise for the world. Poverty is not anything new to black S. African’s only what we let them die of…

  40. #40 pat
    November 7, 2007

    ” how do you explain that (in South Africa, as in others parts of the world) lifespan of HIV+s is smaller than the one of HIV-s.” – Braganza

    I can’t explain that. I also can’t explain the following:

    SA: 5.5 million HIV+ and 14’000 HIV related deaths

    N. America and central Europe: 2.1 million HIV+ and 30’000 HIV related deaths.-UNAIDS

    Uganda: From a high of 35% infection rate to less than 7% in ten years. It is touted as an AIDS prevention success yet no one can find out where the 35% went. They did not die, so much is certain.

    etc..

  41. #41 pat
    November 7, 2007

    Other things I can’t explain:

    -Why some people still believe thoughts are dangerous.(fascist ideology)
    -Why some scientists abandon the field of education.
    (deriliction of duty)

  42. #42 jen_m
    November 7, 2007

    Pat, you are not taking into account the fact that those annual prevalences in Uganda are measured in specific at-risk populations, such as antenatal clinics and sexually transmitted infection clinics, so each measurement is of a different population walking in the door. It’s not that there was a measurement of the whole population, and a subset of people died, moved away, or cleared the virus – it’s that people coming in to be treated for their STIs in 1990 had lower seroprevalence than the ones coming in in 2000.

    The evidence that Uganda is doing something different from its neighbors is reflected in the risk behavior data, too – kids are delaying their sexual debut, condom use is on the rise especially among teens, folks are reporting fewer casual partners, and STI rates are dropping.

  43. #43 jspreen
    November 7, 2007

    Of course, the children at the same orphanage suddenly stopped dying when they were put on antiretrovirals like AZT.

    Hey, bdkeller! Will you answer my previous post please and tell me whether yes or no you are willing to repeat the above phrase in the conditions I mentioned?

  44. #44 J
    November 7, 2007

    Why do the deniers hate AZT? Did AZT once insult your mother? What the hell, I just don’t get it. Of all the things in life to wage a war against, why AZT?

  45. #45 cooler
    November 7, 2007

    bc its a chemotherapy in a pill that kills dividing cells, being on chemo for years can kill you.

    See hiv fact or fraud, read project day lily. google them for some real science, not eternal woo.

  46. #46 blf
    November 7, 2007

    For more information on the situation in Uganda, see (and the pages it links to):

    http://www.avert.org/aidsuganda.htm

    There is also a discussion of the difference between “incidence” and “prevalence”, which may help in understanding the statistics. The possible reasons for the drop in prevalence (from c.35% to c.7%) is discussed:

    Why might HIV prevalence have declined?

    According to the best statistics available, HIV prevalence in Uganda fell dramatically during the 1990s. Such a steep reduction in HIV prevalence has not been seen in countries neighbouring Uganda, and is something that many would like to emulate. The debate is – why did HIV prevalence in Uganda decline? And how can this decline be replicated?

    A declining prevalence indicates a lower proportion of positive people in the population. This could result from a fall in the number of new infections (incidence) or from a rise in the death rate among HIV-positive people, or from a combination of both factors.

    New infections

    It is likely that the number of new infections peaked in the late 1980s, and then fell sharply until the mid 1990s. This is generally thought to have been the result of behaviour change. …

    Deaths

    There is no precise data on the number of AIDS-related deaths that have taken place. The reasons for this are several, and include lack of healthcare facilities able to diagnose either HIV or AIDS cases in patients, and many deaths having gone unrecorded, or recorded as the results of opportunistic infections.

    It has been suggested that an increase in the AIDS death rate may have been largely responsible for the drop in the number of people living with HIV that occurred in the late 1990s (though not for earlier declines). Such a rise in deaths would be a natural consequence of the earlier rise in HIV incidence. In the absence of widespread antiretroviral treatment, any rise in the number of new infections will almost inevitably result in an increase in the death rate a few years later, as people reach the end of their survival period.

    It is clear that a huge number of HIV+ people have died in Uganda since the epidemic began, and a sufficiently high number of deaths could certainly result in a decrease in HIV prevalence figures. However, it should be noted that many other countries in sub-Saharan Africa experienced rapid increases in HIV incidence at the same time as Uganda, and, although they are similarly likely to have experienced large numbers of AIDS deaths, have not yet seen any substantial decline in prevalence. This suggests that the decline seen in Uganda wasn’t a natural occurrence, but rather that it was the result of something that was done differently in Uganda.

    Or in short, an unknown and probably unknowable number of HIV infected people did die, and those deaths, combined with the lower incidence, is why the prevalence has dropped. Furthermore, the neighbouring areas did not show a drop in prevalence or incidence, strongly suggesting the decreases in Uganda are the result of something peculiar to Uganda. The policies used in Uganda, including free ARV medication to people living with HIV (ARVs are now used by c.40% of the infected), is an obvious suspect (i.e., what at least part of the peculiarity is).

  47. #47 J
    November 7, 2007

    I have read Day Lily and HIV fact or fraud. They’re on par with stuff like “9/11 was an inside job” and “Moon landing was a hoax”. I looked into it, and found their arguments to be not so good.

    I have a pretty good understanding of HIV & AIDS and the treatments. What I don’t understand is what motivates those who deny the obvious — what do you get out of it?

  48. #48 blf
    November 7, 2007

    What would swearing on the bible (or whatever the challenge was) make the slightest bit of difference? Assuming an oral oath, then at best all it’d show is the person not mute. Geesh…

  49. #49 cooler
    November 7, 2007

    150 architects have just come out to say that the explosives were used to bring down the towers, google architects for truth.

    Project Day lily is based on the work of military scientist shyh ching lo, mycoplasma incognitus, the only microbe discovered that kills/sickens every animal inoclated, unlike hiv, hpv and hep c.

    personally superior arguments in the film hiv fact or fraud is what swayed me, trust me before i thought it was nuts as well. We have all argued this to death, I just beleive people should have informed consent when it comes to these issues, once they do certain myths evaporate.

    God damn robert Baer former cia officer and writer of award winning movie “syriania” just
    came out for 9/11 truth.

    You people are “government atrocity apologists” ie its impossible for the govenrnment, CDC, NIH to possibly lie or be incompetent.

    Yeah I know you guys are going to respond and say im a nut, like I care, millions of americans think 9/11 was a false flag operation, look at the movie Loose change, its gotten like 50 million views, I think you guys are nuts.

  50. #50 cooler
    November 7, 2007

    jesus, I mean your governemnt killed like 3 million in vietnam, millions in Iraq, the tuskegee experiment and you say im a nut? god i swore i would stay away from you government atrocity apologists, no more posts for the next 24 hours

  51. #51 Braganza
    November 7, 2007

    Pat,

    You wrote:

    “Thank you for your comments Braganza. S. Africa’s “explosive” death rate perhaps is best explained by the fact that black African’s were not allowed to die in white hospitals. No one kept a record of how and when they died so, of course, when Apartheid ended there was a very nasty surprise for the world. Poverty is not anything new to black S. African’s only what we let them die of…”

    This is not correct,

    Even during the Apartheid time, mainly in the last years, black have access to hospitals (for black people, it is true), and had death registrated. I just know that because in the 80’s I was, as a child, living in the border Mozambic-South Africa.

    Even during the war that Apartheid forces funded in Mozambic, people from Mozambic (who are mainly blacks) use to go to South Africa for more complicated treatments.

    You also wrote:

    (…)
    I also can’t explain the following:

    SA: 5.5 million HIV+ and 14’000 HIV related deaths

    N. America and central Europe: 2.1 million HIV+ and 30’000 HIV related deaths.-UNAIDS

    (…)

    This is easy to answer, the point is that statistics are not made using the same standards, a person who died with tuberculosis and HIV may be registrated as dead by tuberculosis or dead by HIV.

  52. #52 pat
    November 7, 2007

    jen_m,

    How are the risk specific groups identified?
    What’s an “at risk” population?. The way you explain takes me to a different view of this. If they take measurements from antenatal clinics and STI clinics I come to the conclusion that the “risk group” identified is the sexually active Ugandan population in general. The only thing specific about this risk group walking in the door is that they are specifically Ugandans. This is what some allude to when they says that there are no “risk groups” in Africa. “African” IS the risk group.

    this is helpful
    http://www.iavireport.org/Issues/Issue11-4/Prevalence.asp

    I may be misunderstanding but this:

    “It’s not that there was a measurement of the whole population,…,it’s that people coming in to be treated for their STIs in 1990 had lower seroprevalence than the ones coming in in 2000″

    means more HIV today than in 1990 which is contrary to the Ugandan experience. Any thoughts on SA?

  53. #53 blf
    November 7, 2007

    jesus, I mean your governemnt [sic] killed like 3 million in vietnam, millions in Iraq, the tuskegee experiment and you say im a nut? god i swore i would stay away from you government atrocity apologists, no more posts for the next 24 hours

    Actually, at the moment, that sounds like drunk-talk. Sleep it off.

    I’m sortof interested in knowing what the connection is between the currently estimated (an extrapolation from the second Lancet study) c.1M excess Iraqi deaths (with which I am not disagreeing) and whether or not the commenter is a “nut”. I don’t see any connection at all, excepting that making an absurd claim like a billion dead (or something similarly impossible) would be a bit, ah, “nutty”. But since the actual claim of a million or so is not absurd, and is broadly in line with the best available reports, that exception does not apply. So what is the connection? What does the number of Iraqi deaths have to do with the “nuttiness” of the commenter?

  54. #54 pat
    November 7, 2007

    Braganza,
    I am sure black Africans had “hospitals”. I am also sure they were nowhere near the shabby standards still encountered in other places in Africa today.

    “and had death registrated”.

    How many did they register? Is there evidence of a massive emerging plague?

    “statistics are not made using the same standards, a person who died with tuberculosis and HIV may be registrated as dead by tuberculosis or dead by HIV.”

    I knew that. They can also be dead of Tuberculosis due to AIDS without a known HIV status. Do you think this is a likely source of misleading data? In SA 14’000 are listed as HIV-related deaths. It is very likely that many died without the benefit of knowing their HIV status and thus became “mondaine” deaths but do you think they missed 350’000 as UNAIDS claims is the estimated total?
    When I take the UNAIDS estimates and super-impose them on actual counts, I see HUGE discrepencies that cannot be explained through different data collecting techniques. If this were so then I must say that the techniques and results should be handled with extreme care if not outright ditched. The total death rate of SAfrica can barely accomodate UNAIDS predictions. How can 2004 UNAIDS estimates (for example) declare 250-350’000 HIV related deaths for SA when the total body count hits a high water mark of 460’000 and a low of 420’000? For how many years now have “up to a thousand” died everyday? I want to joke that if AIDS were cured then the S. Africans would enjoy a lower mortality rate than the Swiss but I can’t; it’s too darn depressing.

    First Apartheid. Then AIDS hysteria. Then the denial of affordable life-saving medicine on financial grounds. We then manage to delude ourselves with the idea that the refusal by western nations to relax patent rules is actually “blood on Mbeki’s hands”. When Mbeki went out searching for alternatives high and low (literally) he was not prepared for the political shit storm ahead.
    We have lavish conventions where we jet people around, house them in top hotels and demonstrate our disdain for garlic and lemons by having activist goons squash them with their feet. They should try that on the field in S. Africa and see how their life expectancy suddenly takes a dive too.
    We talk of Dooms-day scenarios but we bring NO solutions that are compatible with the reality in S Africa but we do feel very strongly, whatever is really going on, that it is blood on Mbeki’s hands. A 1000 a day are now blamed on Mbeki/AIDS. I am amazed at how far some will go with their fiction for political gain but I am truely speechless at how others will swallow it “hook,line and sinker”.

  55. #55 franklin
    November 7, 2007

    With regard to AIDS in S. Africa, Pat asks:

    Is there evidence of a massive emerging plague?

    Only if you are willing to pull your head out of the sand.

  56. #56 jen_m
    November 7, 2007

    Pat, I misstated! I meant to say “higher seroprevalence in 1990″. I am sorry to have muddied matters.

    Of course the risk group is intended to be sexually active Ugandans, but we can’t capture the whole denominator. So STI and antenatal clinics provide populations presumed to be sexually active without condoms, and for the most part already having blood drawn.

  57. #57 pat
    November 7, 2007

    “It has been suggested that an increase in the AIDS death rate may have been largely responsible for the drop in the number of people living with HIV that occurred in the late 1990s (though not for earlier declines). Such a rise in deaths would be a natural consequence of the earlier rise in HIV incidence. In the absence of widespread antiretroviral treatment, any rise in the number of new infections will almost inevitably result in an increase in the death rate a few years later, as people reach the end of their survival period.

    It is clear that a huge number of HIV+ people have died in Uganda since the epidemic began, and a sufficiently high number of deaths could certainly result in a decrease in HIV prevalence figures. However, it should be noted that many other countries in sub-Saharan Africa experienced rapid increases in HIV incidence at the same time as Uganda, and, although they are similarly likely to have experienced large numbers of AIDS deaths, have not yet seen any substantial decline in prevalence. This suggests that the decline seen in Uganda wasn’t a natural occurrence, but rather that it was the result of something that was done differently in Uganda.”

    The problem with this text is that “it becomes clear that many HIV+ people died” is justified based on assumptions of a disease that itself is largely based on assumptions.

    According to statistics Uganda
    Population growth total:
    1969. 9.5 million
    1980 12.6 (+32%)
    1991 16.7 (+32%)
    2002 24.4 (+47%)
    2005 26.8 (est)

    Note the decade 1991-2002 when these people supposedly were dying. This means one of several possibilities:

    -There was no high prevalence of HIV to begin with

    -The 65% That were not infected successfully remained so and brought not only very low prevalence but also simultanuously drove Ugandas largest population leap on record inspite of being “short manned”.

  58. #58 pat
    November 7, 2007

    “With regard to AIDS in S. Africa, Pat asks:

    Is there evidence of a massive emerging plague?
    Only if you are willing to pull your head out of the sand.

    Posted by: franklin | November 7, 2007 5:10 PM”

    I knew it was only a matter of minutes for the first sly remark. I was asking if there is evidence for this emerging disease during Apartheid; I’d love to learn more about it. My fault, I should have clarified for the ADD ones amongst us. You apparently “believe” 1000 die every day in S Africa? You have found a way to fit that number in S. Africas total mortality rate? Please, continue…

  59. #59 pat
    November 7, 2007

    “Pat, I misstated! I meant to say “higher seroprevalence in 1990″. I am sorry to have muddied matters.

    Of course the risk group is intended to be sexually active Ugandans, but we can’t capture the whole denominator. So STI and antenatal clinics provide populations presumed to be sexually active without condoms, and for the most part already having blood drawn.”

    Give me some more of your thoughts. If Aids Awareness- as defined by abstinence, condom use and less partners- has helped reduce prevalence doesn’t it also simultanuously clash with the data on population growth in Uganda today? It only follows logic that more condoms equals less incidence but… more babies? What are your thoughts on that?

  60. #60 pat
    November 7, 2007

    less die in infancy I hope is the answer.

  61. #61 Chris Noble
    November 7, 2007

    Can we see this secrtely authored paper or should we just blow wind around as usual.

    CASTRO HLONGWANE, CARAVANS, CATS, GEESE, FOOT & MOUTH AND STATISTICS

    If Mbeki was such a hero why didn’t he come out and openly state his beliefs? Why the subterfuge?

    Why did he claim not to know anyone who had AIDS when it is clear from this document that Parks Mankahlana had AIDS?

  62. #62 ElkMountainMan
    November 7, 2007

    Pat (or Christine),

    we have seen this conversation many times on this blog, most recently in the “Introduction to HIV Denial” thread.

    You may wish to re-read the comments there before you repeat the mistakes of your friends (or other pseudonyms). Here is adele’s response to Kyle, who uses the same statistics and makes the same points as you have:

    http://scienceblogs.com/aetiology/2007/06/introduction_to_hiv_and_hiv_de.php#comment-536445

    If you read the comments there, and view the actual South African statistics (to which some of the writers link), you will learn that the official statistics give a mortality figure of almost 600,000 in 2005. Not all deaths are recorded, so the true mortality is closer to 700,000 (and I am rounding the numbers, so please forgive me). The total yearly deaths in South Africa quite easily accomodate the estimated AIDS toll.

    Also in the Introduction thread, we learn that numerous separate studies, including those funded by the South African government, arrive at roughly the same figures for AIDS mortality: over 300,000 per year. These numbers mean almost 1000 deaths per day. If your point, Pat (Christine?), is that an estimated 947 deaths per day (ASSA for 2006) or 921 deaths per day (from the Medical Research Council of South Africa for 05/06) should not be rounded to 1000 per day, then I hope you won’t get upset if someone accuses you of pedantry.

  63. #63 Never-a-peen
    November 7, 2007

    Of course, the children at the same orphanage suddenly stopped dying when they were put on antiretrovirals like AZT.

    The above lie is typical of the AIDS apologists who actually believe their own propaganda. AZT is a highly toxic poison that essentially kills the user. To even remotely suggest that AZT prolongs or extends life is so contrary to our collective knowledge of its biological activity, that it is amazing that anyone could possibly believe this, except of coure, paid political activists and drug company shills.

    AIDS researchers are “Nazis”? What do we call vitamin quacks who experiment on people with AIDS?

    In a valid clinical trial, a vitamin or even a placebo would be more effective than AZT, or even the whole filthy mess of HIV drugs. That’s because placebos and vitamins don’t kill people. HIV drugs are deadly toxins that kill the user. In addition, starving Africans suffering from malnutrition and contaminated water need nutrition, protein, and yes also vitamins.

    If offering vitamins is quackery, then the US government is a quack government because they recommend vitamins for pregnancy and for anyone over the age of 50. And what about the quacks who put vitamins in all the cereals at the grocery store, or the vitamins placed into the flour sent to our fighting GI’s overseas during the wars. If offering vitamins is quackery, then the American Society of Pediatrics is a quack organization because there are vitamins in the infant formula they prescribe. Would you deny the same vitamins for Africans that your own government has arranged for you ? That is the height of hypocrisy. The REAL quacks are eating the vitamin enriched food with one hand, and the other hand applying the false label “vitamin quack” to those honorable and just health workers who offer the same benefits to Africans.

    If these are experiments, then the entire US population, which is eating vitamin enriched foods at the grocery store, is also the victim of a government quack experiment, a proposition as to be so ridiculous as to be laughed out of town. Only a paid political activist or drug company shill could propose this absurdity.

  64. #64 jen_m
    November 7, 2007

    “Give me some more of your thoughts. If Aids Awareness- as defined by abstinence, condom use and less partners- has helped reduce prevalence doesn’t it also simultanuously clash with the data on population growth in Uganda today? It only follows logic that more condoms equals less incidence but… more babies? What are your thoughts on that?”

    Not necessarily. If you think about how sexually transmitted infections spread among heterosexuals, it requires more than just penile-vaginal intercourse – it requires unprotected sexual contact between partners with disease and partners without. Conception, though, requires just the unprotected sex. If two people without disease come together (er, as it were), they can have as much unprotected sex as they like, and they won’t acquire an STI.

    If people are, generally speaking, having unprotected sex with fewer partners, and young people who are just becoming sexually active are having unprotected sex with fewer partners over their lifetimes, and curable STIs are being treated, the number of new STIs can drop, and the number of babies can go up at the same time. If uncurable STIs (like herpes, HPV, and HIV) are prevented from spreading by universal use of condoms by those who know themselves to be infected, a drop in the rates of new infections with those STIs can still happen while the whole population is growing. Finally, if the growth rate of the population at risk is higher than the incidence of new infections, then the prevalence will drop, assuming unknowns are held reasonably constant. (Such unknowns could include host susceptibility, changes in viral pathogenicity, changes in carrier health that might alter likelihood of transmission…I can think of a lot of other variables, but relatively few that are going to be common enough to affect the population dynamic that didn’t also pertain in the early years of the epidemic.)

    I do also hope that infant mortality is dropping. (And that perinatal HIV transmission is being reduced.)

    I doubt you’ll find many STI epidemiologists, much less AIDS epidemiologists, who disagree that there are horrifying disparities in not only HIV and STI treatment between poor and wealthy countries, but in basic health care, education, nutrition, and infrastructure.

  65. #65 bdkeller
    November 7, 2007

    jspreen,
    Certainly I swear that I speak the truth and nothing but the truth. I would look you in the eyes, but we’re both on computers.
    The children were getting excellent palliative care a the hospital before ARV’s were available. They got great nutrition, love, and affection from the caretakers. They were even getting treatment for opportunistic infection. They were still dying, because the underlying cause of their illness wasn’t being addressed (HIV). The children were put on ARV’s and the mortality rate dropped hugely. I would swear on the bible, but as a nonbeliever I find that exercise rather silly.

  66. #66 bdkeller
    November 7, 2007

    Quick correction from my previous post. Hospital= hospice. Their primary treatment was provided by physicians who visit the combined hospice & orphanage where the children and many of their parents live. The children do go to local hospitals (including Baragwanath and Coronation hospitals in the Jo’burg area) to see specialists for OI’s.

  67. #67 Chris Noble
    November 7, 2007

    If offering vitamins is quackery, then the US government is a quack government because they recommend vitamins for pregnancy and for anyone over the age of 50.

    This is a strawman argument. Everybody including the evil orthodoxy are in favour of good nutrition and vitamins.

    Howvever good nutrition and vitamins alone do not prevent AIDS. To give vitamins in place of antiretrovirals is quackery.

  68. #68 Noreen
    November 7, 2007

    Yes, good nutrition and vitamins would prevent AIDS defining diseases as then one’s immunity would be up to par and these wouldn’t occur in the first place. But then, there isn’t any money to be made in selling supplements comapared to antiretrovirals. One way that I have managed to prevent O.I.’s is by substituting supplements for antiretrovirals along with LDN. This would work for most diseases, not just AIDS. Many studies over the years have been done on the effects of malnutrition on human health. Many diseases are due to deficiencies and when they are corrected, the patien’t health returns. Hey, this isn’t rocket science just good 0ld-fashioned common sense that many are lacking.

  69. #69 Chris Noble
    November 7, 2007

    But then, there isn’t any money to be made in selling supplements comapared to antiretrovirals.

    Pharmaceutical companies would tend to disagree with you there. Supplements are very good earners for these companies.

    Matthias Rath didn’t become a millionaire by giving away his supplements.

  70. #70 Chris Noble
    November 7, 2007

    The above lie is typical of the AIDS apologists who actually believe their own propaganda. AZT is a highly toxic poison that essentially kills the user. To even remotely suggest that AZT prolongs or extends life is so contrary to our collective knowledge of its biological activity, that it is amazing that anyone could possibly believe this, except of coure, paid political activists and drug company shills.

    It’s typical of Denialists to deny any evidence that contradicts their dogmatically held beliefs.

  71. #71 jen_m
    November 7, 2007

    Quoth Noreen, “But then, there isn’t any money to be made in selling supplements comapared to antiretrovirals.”

    Not compared to antiretrovirals, true, but there’s certainly still a tidy profit to be made in selling supplements. (My daily multivitamin is nothing fancy, but it still runs me 13 cents a tablet, which is more than Advil runs, and billions of dollars are spent advertising Advil a year.)

    However, we’re not talking about selling either class of item at a profit – if we’re talking about providing medication or nutrition to poor countries, where there is no money to be made selling either, because there is no money period, we need to ask wealthier countries to pony up, because the manufacturers don’t make anything for free.

  72. #72 pat
    November 7, 2007

    ElkMountainMan,

    Pat, not Christine. don’t let that old fool Moore confuse you. Those are 2001 estimates and not 2004 as I stated and not 2005 as you suggest.

    Even 2005 numbers say 590’000. The desperate upward nudge to 800’000 is quite arbitrary but yes 356’000 is fitting better today than it did back in 2001.

    you write arrogantly:

    “You may wish to re-read the comments there before you repeat the mistakes of your friends (or other pseudonyms). Here is adele’s response to Kyle, who uses the same statistics and makes the same points as you have”

    First off Adele’s answer is less than convincing. Here it is:

    “So anyway I hope those estimates are all wrong and way too high. If they are, those people who estimate are using bad methods and they need new ones. Thing is, those methods are actually good and another thing is, if their not they don’t say yes HIV causes AIDS or no HIV doesn’t cause AIDS. So if the epidemiologists are all drunk off their ass and getting everything wrong and really there’s only 50,000 people dying of AIDS in south Africa every year well that’s still too many people dying of AIDS.”-Adele

    Blablabla…IF these figures are wrong then blabla…but they are not wrong and even If they were wrong they don’t say HIV does or doesn’t blablablabla

    I have seen that very same paper thank you. Scroll down to figure 4.4 and look at where HIV disease ranks on the top ten list. It ranks as ten with a total of 14’532. Can you explain this and why Adele’s blather is more accurate?

    Jen_m,

    ” If two people without disease come together (er, as it were), they can have as much unprotected sex as they like, and they won’t acquire an STI.”

    That would all make sense but consider that most Ugandans do not have the benefit of knowing their hiv status prior to conception.

    “I do also hope that infant mortality is dropping. (And that perinatal HIV transmission is being reduced.)”

    Rest assured. You don’t have to “hope” anymore! you can now “know” that they have been going down steadily since at least 1960 with a slight bump in 1980. Right back down through the peak of Ugandas AIDS epidemic in the 1990’s.
    (globalis.gvu.unu.edu/indicator_detail.cfm?IndicatorID=25&Country=UG)

    Chris Noble:
    “If Mbeki was such a hero why didn’t he come out and openly state his beliefs? Why the subterfuge?”

    He is a politician and he is eyeing the AIDS cash cow like everybody else. He also knows that creatures like you lurk under the surface. Subterfuge?..what country are you from?

  73. #73 Chris Noble
    November 7, 2007

    He is a politician and he is eyeing the AIDS cash cow like everybody else. He also knows that creatures like you lurk under the surface. Subterfuge?..what country are you from?

    Of course he’s a politician. If he really believes that HIV doesn’t cause AIDS then why didn’t he make it an election issue. If South Africans aren’t dying from HIV/AIDS then he should have gotten lots of votes. The reality is that although Mbeki claims he doesn’t know anybody that has AIDS most citizens of his country have a different experience.

  74. #74 Mountain Man
    November 7, 2007

    Again, I’m just very thankful that President Mbeki had the courage and intellectual honesty to stand up to the AIDS/Pharma cabal, and refuse to let his people wreck their collective health on toxic junk.

    Mbeki is as an important figure as Nelson Mandela. God Bless them both.

  75. #75 Jim
    November 7, 2007

    “no explanation how a infection thats in 1/1000 blood tcells destroys the immune system”

    There absolutely is, cooler. Papers linked by myself and also braganza give two different explanations for how a low level of infection results in the destruction of the immune system. Don’t confuse you not knowing about them and them not existing.

  76. #76 pat
    November 7, 2007

    Chris,

    “If South Africans aren’t dying from HIV/AIDS then he should have gotten lots of votes. The reality is that although Mbeki claims he doesn’t know anybody that has AIDS most citizens of his country have a different experience.”

    He got lots of votes. Maybe they don’t apreciate the hysteria after all. Most S. African share a very similar experience. S. Africa reached out for help with AIDS and it wasnt forthcoming. Is there any wonder they are feeling cheated again? Is there any wonder they circle the wagons? Is there any wonder that some might wonder? This is a case of a smear campaign against Mbeki having back-fired.

  77. #77 Chris Noble
    November 7, 2007

    Again, I’m just very thankful that President Mbeki had the courage and intellectual honesty to stand up to the AIDS/Pharma cabal, and refuse to let his people wreck their collective health on toxic junk.

    If he is so courageous and honest then why didn’t he take his Denialism to the last election? Before the last election the official ANC policy switched to HIV causes AIDS and they promised to roll-out antiretrovirals for everybody. These are the policies that they took to the election. These were the policies for which the people voted.

    Now we find out that in secret Mbeki never gave up his Denialism. Instead of openly stating his beliefs he just set about doing his best to obstruct and delay the roll-out of antiretrovirals.

  78. #78 Chris Noble
    November 7, 2007

    Here’s an interview with the SA Health Minister Manto Tshabalala-Msimang where she is asked whether HIV causes AIDS.

    ‘Don’t call me Manto’

    So much for courage and honesty!

    The official policy at that stage was that HIV causes AIDs and a fullscale roll-out of ARVs had been promised.

    Manto could not answer a straight question honestly.

  79. #79 Chris Noble
    November 8, 2007

    Again, I’m just very thankful that President Mbeki had the courage and intellectual honesty to stand up to the AIDS/Pharma cabal, and refuse to let his people wreck their collective health on toxic junk.

    Did you read how Mbeki wanted to poison his people with toxic Virodene(TM)

    Illegal unethical drug trials. Secret transfers of ANC money. Courageous and honest? Not really.

  80. #80 cooler
    November 8, 2007

    mbekis got the big balls and the big heart, he should win the noble prize for the size of his balls

  81. #81 Chris Noble
    November 8, 2007

    mbekis got the big balls and the big heart, he should win the noble prize for the size of his balls

    If Mbeki has got such big balls then why didn’t he stand up in front of the South African public and say that HIV doesn’t cause AIDS?

  82. #82 Chris Noble
    November 8, 2007

    If Mbeki has such big balls why didn’t he put his name on this document?

    CASTRO HLONGWANE, CARAVANS, CATS, GEESE, FOOT & MOUTH AND STATISTICS

    Why distribute it anonymously?

  83. #83 Noreen
    November 8, 2007

    Let’s see what we could do with $1,200 dollars a month the cost of the average antiretrovirals and give it to HIV+’s in Africa. Maybe we could give them vitamins, food and even have some left over towards thier medical care but then that would make too much sense and also take away from the profit to be made there by shoveling down HIV medicines into them that they may not need in the first place. Yeah, I see the light and what is really happening here.

  84. #84 jspreen
    November 8, 2007

    If Mbeki has got such big balls then why didn’t he stand up in front of the South African public and say that HIV doesn’t cause AIDS?

    Why? Well, if you don’t understand that, you’re even worse than I already thought. Have a look at the way “denialism” is treated on this non-sense blog, extrapolate, and, if you do have some working brain cells left, you might have some better insight at how a denialist president would be treated by the totally indoctrinated population of his country.

    The children were put on ARV’s and the mortality rate dropped hugely.

    OK, bdkeller, I take your word for it that you really noticed exactly that. Now, is there any denialist around who also works in SA and has something to answer to the above affirmation? What else did happen to the children at the same time they were put on the drugs?

  85. #85 Never-a-peen
    November 8, 2007

    Certainly I swear that I speak the truth and nothing but the truth. I would look you in the eyes, but we’re both on computers. The children were getting excellent palliative care a the hospital before ARV’s were available. They got great nutrition, love, and affection from the caretakers. They were even getting treatment for opportunistic infection. They were still dying, because the underlying cause of their illness wasn’t being addressed (HIV). The children were put on ARV’s and the mortality rate dropped hugely. I would swear on the bible, but as a nonbeliever I find that exercise rather silly.

    A few questions about the author of the above anecdote:

    Any information as to method of documentation of HIV status? the exact drugs used ? dosage? route of administration? adverse side effects? duration of treatment? underlying OI’s, drugs used for OI’s, nutritional status and age of the kids, any vitamin mineral supplementation, any other changes in treatment or care during the time periods?

    It’s typical of Denialists to deny any evidence that contradicts their dogmatically held beliefs.

    If the above anecdotal story about the “miraculous” recovery of kids in an African orphanage after HIV drugs is called EVIDENCE, then we must also call EVIDENCE, the well documented inside story of the ICC orphans (Incarnation Catholic Charity) by Liam Scheff and the interviews with the doctors, nurses and aids. Also see the BBC documentary Guinea Pig Kids. That story was quite different. The kids got very sick and some died after the “life saving ” deadly drugs. The kids who refused the drugs were tortured with gastrostomy tube placement and forced fed the drugs, amounting to an ethics violation on par with nazi concentration camp medical experiments.

    The standard operating procedure of the AIDS apologists is to either (a) believe their own propaganda or (b) make up lies which they later delude themselves into believing. Don’t forget, paid drug company shills and mercenary political activists will lie about anything, or (c) accept flimsy anecdotes as EVIDENCE when it supports their case and reject similar information when is does not.

    However good nutrition and vitamins alone do not prevent AIDS. To give vitamins in place of antiretrovirals is quackery.

    Noreen has just testified from her own experience that good nutrition and vitamins DOES prevent AIDS. Typical of AIDS apologists to deny the evidence in front of their noses.

    As mentioned above, western governments have mandated vitamin supplements to be added to the food supply, yet the above AIDS apologist labels the same practice in Africa as quackery. This is absurd.

    Opportunistic infectious diseases in Africans caused by poverty, malnutrition and contaminated water should be treated with 1) vitamin enriched nutrition 2) standard medical treatment of the oppotunistic infection 3) and not the quackery of deadly HIV drugs which will kill the patient. The real quack here is the paid drug company shill chris (the quack) noble who advocates deadly hiv drugs for diseases of malnutriton and poverty.

    If Mbeki has got such big balls then why didn’t he stand up in front of the South African public and say that HIV doesn’t cause AIDS?

    Why should Mbeki do any such thing? The drug companies are just waiting for an excuse to send out their paid activist cronies to harrass the government. By playing along, he got them off his back. Playing along is an old and well used political trick which works every time. It takes more than bravado to be successful at politics.

    Why distribute it anonymously?

    A quote from the anonymous document attributed to ANC member:


    No longer will the Africans accept as the unalterable truth that they are victim to a self-inflicted “disease” called HIV/AIDS. For centuries we have carried the burden of the crimes and falsities of ‘scientific’ Eurocentrism, its dogmas imposed upon our being as a definitive, ‘universal’ truth.

  86. #86 ElkMountainMan
    November 8, 2007

    Pat,

    You wrote,

    Even 2005 numbers say 590’000. The desperate upward nudge to 800’000 is quite arbitrary but yes 356’000 is fitting better today than it did back in 2001.

    700,000, Pat, not 800,000, but I’ll assume you missed the proper key. Since you have read the South African government publication, you know that under 90% of deaths are estimated to have been reported for that year. Adjusting reported death number for under-reporting results in a total mortality estimate of between 650,000 and 700,000 (as I mentioned earlier this morning, I rounded to 700,000 in my comment).

    Concerning the reported “14,000” deaths from HIV infection, Braganza explained the disparity, and you agreed. Tuberculosis deaths are classified as TB deaths, pneumonia deaths as pneumonia, and so on. Trace the rise in deaths in these categories in recent years, and you will see the effects of HIV infection on mortality.

    Should you agree with a South African government organization, a SA gov’t-funded organization, and the UN, who all arrive at AIDS mortality figures in the range of 320,000 to 360,000? Perhaps you should not. An estimate is only as good as its methodology and the input data. If you have better data or better methods, Pat, please share them with us.

    In the absence of new and improved estimates, we would all be interested if you could divulge the reasoning behind your apparent need to minimize the human costs of AIDS in South Africa.

  87. #87 Never-a-peen
    November 8, 2007

    In the absence of new and improved estimates, we would all be interested if you could divulge the reasoning behind your apparent need to minimize the human costs of AIDS in South Africa.

    AIDS in Africa is a the same old collection of diseases of poverty, malnutrition, slim disease and contaminated water renamed “AIDS”. There is little money for HIV testing, so AIDS is merely a convenient label applied to the unfortunate Africans who succumb to malnutrition, slim disease, wasting and other diseases of poverty.

    The distribution of deadly HIV drugs in this setting is genocide masquerading as philanthropy.

    The distribution of money in the form of charity in the name of “AIDS Programs” is a welcome cash cow for an impoverished people. Keep up with the money, forget the drugs. The government death rates and stats are all bogus, and can be used either way.

  88. #88 bdkeller
    November 8, 2007

    “Now, is there any denialist around who also works in SA and has something to answer to the above affirmation? What else did happen to the children at the same time they were put on the drugs?”
    jspreen,
    I’m not sure if your question is addressed to me or others. However, I think the answer should be obvious: Of course, none of the staff/family/doctors I met who are involved with this clinic are denialists because they’ve seen the wonderful effects that ARV’s have on children and adults with HIV. Do you ever think that, since people without ARV treatment die of HIV at much higher rates than those who receive treatment, maybe it’s the HIV/AIDS that’s to blame and not the drugs? Or is that too far outside the realm of possibility because of how much energy you’ve invested into denial?

  89. #89 Braganza
    November 8, 2007

    Dear Never-a-peen,

    Why should HIV test in US/EU be an indicator of probability to have AIDS and not in Africa.

    Would this be a bit of …. racism ?

  90. #90 Braganza
    November 8, 2007

    Dear Pat,

    It may be true that numbers of HIV+ deaths are not totally correct. But this is not the critical question referent to HIV/AIDS in South Africa.

    I have seen that you agree that HIV+s have higher mortality than HIV-s. I assume that you agree that many of them would have immune dysfunction, gradual reduction of CD4+, and if left without treatment, they would have OIs, and ultimately would die from what is known as AIDS.

    The critical question is: do these persons, in South Africa or elsewhere, have the right to have access to medical treatments or no ?

  91. #91 Redeye
    November 8, 2007

    Those who question whether HIV/AIDS is a devastating epidemic in Africa should read Ron Bayer and Gerald Oppenheimer’s new book, Shattered Dreams, a history of the epidemic in South Africa from interviews with front-line doctors and nurses. The difference between AIDS and the patterns of diseases that health care workers dealt with before AIDS is profound, absolute, and agonizing. The book also addresses how HIV/AIDS–and Mbeki’s (and Mandela’s) failure to confront it immediately and with comprehensive prevention and treatment initiatives–has undermined the promises of liberation in South Africa.

  92. #92 pat
    November 8, 2007

    Elk,
    Yes I kinda agreed. This then means that only 15’000 died with the benefit of knowing their status which in turn means that we are not only witholding the medicines but also the kits they need to get a clearer picture of this disease.

    “In the absence of new and improved estimates, we would all be interested if you could divulge the reasoning behind your apparent need to minimize the human costs of AIDS in South Africa.”

    I do not have a “need”. Why you think it is “apparent” is beyond me. I am merely suspicious and, again, don’t let that drooling fool Moore tell you otherwise. I do however see why some may have a “need” to inflate them: up the hype, up the pressure and shake them down and call them murderers if they balk.

    Braganza,
    “The critical question is: do these persons, in South Africa or elsewhere, have the right to have access to medical treatments or no ?”

    Good question and I am glad you asked. These people have the right to access medicines. The west has no moral right to withold them any longer. It has been over twenty years and the squabble around the patent rules has killed enough as it is. It escapes me how people can sit at their pooters and call Mbeki the murderer when the real ones in fact sit in their glass towers in the wealthiest countries. It is time for this blog and all other “anti-denialist” crusaders to start voicing their anger at those who hold the power to change things. Everything else is pissing against the wind.

  93. #93 jspreen
    November 8, 2007

    Do you ever think that, since people without ARV treatment die of HIV at much higher rates than those who receive treatment, maybe it’s the HIV/AIDS that’s to blame and not the drugs?

    Of course, of course. That’s why I wrote my question.

    My question addresses any of the readers of this forum, who works like you in South Africa and who may have an opinion different from yours and which is also exclusively based on practical experience. You know, I think the quality of the ever lasting and leading nowhere discussions on this blog would greatly increase if practical experience meets practical experience eye to eye in the presence of well informed witnesses.

    You speak of wonderful effects that ARV’s have on children and adults with HIV. I have read and heard exactly the opposite in many places but, personally, I have never witnessed or experienced neither wonderful nor terrible effects and I think that at least 95% of the active big mouthed visitors, apologist or denialist, of this blog can’t say any better than that.

    Hence my attempt to get away from the opinion battle and provoke a life discussion between people who see it happen all the time.

  94. #94 bayman
    November 8, 2007

    “Mr Gevisser says that while Mr Mbeki has never explicitly denied the link between HIV and Aids, he is a “profound sceptic”.

    Tara, when will you stop trying to reduce a complex geopolitical issue to name-calling and rhetoric? It doesn’t matter whether you have good intentions or not, it’s not productive. The only purpose sensationalism serves is to bring people to your website. Can’t bloggers just leave the oversimplified propaganda to the mainstream media?

  95. #95 Tara C. Smith
    November 8, 2007

    Bayman,

    Those aren’t my words–that’s a quote from the article. As I noted in my response to Chris, it’s a nitpicky technicality regarding whether one can refer to Mbeki as a “denier” or not (one which I’m not really concerned about, quite frankly). The issue isn’t what label to attach to Mbeki, but rather his backwards views on HIV that continue to harm his country, and by virtue of his status and perceived authority, harm others around the world.

  96. #96 Braganza
    November 8, 2007

    Tara,

    It appear from the paper that you quote, that because Mbeki was in minority in his own government, he abdicated from taking positions on HIV/AIDS questions, and therefore he had no major say in the present governamental HIV/AIDS say in South Africa/ and his views on this matter could not be translated in policies.

    So how could it be that “his views on HIV continue to harm his country (..) ?”.

  97. #97 Dustin
    November 8, 2007

    Tara, when will you stop trying to reduce a complex geopolitical issue to name-calling and rhetoric?

    It’s really important, after all, that we consider both sides of the complex geopolitical issue of whether or not HIV causes AIDS and not take hasty action that might save lives. Mbeki is quite progressive and informed in his decision to teach both sides of the argument and let the dying decide.

    The president said he was seeking an open debate but portrayed those who disagreed with him – who include Nelson Mandela, trade union leaders whose members were dying in large numbers and Aids activists – as in the pay of the drug companies.

    That’s a quote worthy of jspreen — so I’m going to call Mbeki exactly what he is: an HIV denialist. It’s worth calling him out on this because he is in a position where his failure to act costs lives and spreads disease. If you’re interested, I’ve also stooped so far in my rhetoric that I’ve called Jeffrey Dahmer a cannibal. I once, though I will admit I may have been a little less composed than I should have been at the time, also suggested that the sky is blue and that the earth is round. Perhaps I should have paid more attention to the nuances of those complex geopolitical issues before shooting my mouth off.

  98. #98 John Moore
    November 8, 2007

    Anyone capable of understanding science and the truth (i.e., posters other than the AIDS denialist trolls who are sadly a dime a dozen on this site), and who is genuinely interested in what’s happened in South Africa over the past decade, should read the following book:

    Nattrass N. 2007. Mortal Combat: AIDS Denialism and the Fight for Antiretrovirals in South Africa, University of KwaZulu Natal Press, Pietermaritzburg.

    “The Invisible Cure: Africa, the West, and the Fight Against AIDS” by Helen Epstein, which I recently reviewed in the J Clin Invest, is also excellent source material.

  99. #99 Adele
    November 8, 2007

    Hi Braganza Mbeki brought in duesberg. He said it was poverty not HIV causing aids. So they dragged thier feet on meds. So in 2005 Uganda had a third of people getting HAART who needed it South Africa like 10 or 12%. More people with high viral load, more infections more people with AIDS. So Mbeki’s policy still effects people it will for a long time.

  100. #100 cooler
    November 8, 2007

    “(at least since Harvey Bialy wandered off the scene to die of his kidney cancer)” John moore

    John has probably lost all credibility in the scientific community with this quote, mocking another scientist while he is dying of cancer.

    Not only that, the government could never tell a lie trolls on this blog that have not condemened his statement, including Tara, have lost all credibility for standing by silently.

    Bialy started slinging insults at Moore AFTER Moore declined a civil debate with Bialy calling him a charlatan etc.

    To quote the sanctimonious hypocrite Tara
    “Ya’ll are a real classy bunch”

  101. #101 cooler
    November 8, 2007

    Here is his disgusting post, filled with ad hominem attacks as usual, but mocking people who are dying or possibly dying of Cancer?…………

    OK, now I’m really confused….. Pat, who its been obvious for days now is Christine Maggiore writing under a pseudonym, is attacked by fellow AIDS denialist Claus Jensen, writing as Molecular Entry Claw (why and why?), then admits in a fit of temper that she (Pat) is indeed Christine Maggiore, but next Molecular Entry Claw (Jensen) denies it was him who attacked her/Pat/Christine Maggiore, and then Christine Maggiore (writing under her own name or, as ElkMountainMan suggests, perhaps someone else pretending to be Christine Maggiore) denies being Pat after all, and also denies admitting that she (Pat?) admitted to being Christine Maggiore (have I missed any link in the bizarre chain of events?).

    But then, thinking about, what else should one expect from AIDS denialists? They’ve never been known for clarity of expression, telling the truth, integrity, logic, etc. So the above events are entirely within their standard modus operandi, and no doubt they either see some perverse logic to it all, or else it’s another manifestation of the internecine splits within the ranks of denialism that occur now and then, to the amusement of the rest of us (e.g., Perth Group vs Duesberg).

    I’m also still confused about cooler, who appears to occupy this site principally to boast about his alleged sexual conquests, which presumably explains why his typing appears to be carried out using only one hand. But is cooler really a sophisticated plant, a parody of an AIDS denialist, created by AIDS professionals to make the world of denialism look worse than it already is, as has been suggested earlier on this string? It’s an interesting theory. But to invent cooler would be overkill, as Jan Spreen is the living embodiment of the AIDS denialist parody, the arch conspiracy theorist and nihilist who already serves as AIDS science’s best exemplar of the madness of AIDS denialism (at least since Harvey Bialy wandered off the scene to die of his kidney cancer). So, with Spreen already posting on this Blog, would anyone actually NEED to invent cooler? I doubt it, so cooler probably is real; sad, lonely, foolish, mono-dimensional, Dr.Lo-obsessed but real.

    And who the heck is BuffaloValleyWoman?

    Ah well, it’s all too puzzling, and rather a waste of time, so I don’t think I’ll bother looking at this thread again. But do take a look at AIDS Truth’s next posting, on how the denialists use fake identities and commit cybercrimes, to get some insights into just who some of these various people truly are, and how they operate on the internet.

    John Moore (aka Moore, John; John P. Moore)

    Posted by: John Moore | November 3, 2007 1:38 AM

  102. #102 Adele
    November 8, 2007

    Well Steve cooler Billingham slash harvey bialy hows it insulting to say some one is dying of cancer.

    Oh and I didn’t hear you condem your Arizona buddy Rob who says alot worse things like it’s fun to expirement with Jewish kids. You say you don’t know Rob so its ok. Rob made you administrator on his site but you don’t know him, right.

    Your the person that lost all credibility for standing by silently.

  103. #103 cooler
    November 8, 2007

    I condemn that statement, I dont even know the guy, he made me an admin bc i just updated a link, your turn to condemn his statement

  104. #104 Adele
    November 8, 2007

    Thank you cooler I to condemn Rob on his racist joke. Genocide, its not funny to joke about it. Rob is a despicable hater, he doesn’t know any thing about HIV or AIDS either.

    OK cooler back to you will you condemn the 911 twoofers who say evil Jews blew up the towers. We can go back and forth, condemn racists or homophobes on your side all day until I get bored which is now.

  105. #105 pat
    November 8, 2007

    “The issue isn’t what label to attach to Mbeki, but rather his backwards views on HIV that continue to harm his country, and by virtue of his status and perceived authority, harm others around the world.”

    Maybe you can try to work with him instead of against him. It usually achieves better results. The dithering on patent rules and the attack style AIDS propaganda led by JP Moore have done way more harm to anyone than any single individual with “doubts”.

  106. #106 cooler
    November 8, 2007

    good if youre bored dont talk to me and stop stalking me

  107. #107 bdkeller
    November 8, 2007

    jspreen said:
    “…I think that at least 95% of the active big mouthed visitors, apologist or denialist, of this blog can’t say any better than that.”

    I’ve only ever heard the denialist position supported online, or by people who came across the arguments online and latched onto them for whatever reason (Mbeki being a great example). I would caution that while my reaction is tempered by my personal experience (knowing that ARV’s have saved the lives of countless people with HIV can lead one to react rather viscerally against denialists who seek to keep those treatments away from people) I wouldn’t say it is wholly based on personal experience. There is, of course, the huge body of research supporting the facts that HIV causes AIDS, and that ARV’s are a vital component of our response to HIV/AIDS (along with treatment of OI’s, good nutrition, prevention strategies, etc.).

    The body of research that can be misconstrued to back the denialist position is so narrow that anonymous posters such as MountainMan resort to coping and pasting from websites with references that don’t support his case when you actual read the files. An actual reading of that scientific literature reveals that many of those articles disprove denialist theories.

    That said, I’ve also interacted with quite a few medical doctors in the US and in Africa (Ghana, Zambia, and South Africa) involved in the treatment of HIV/AIDS. Far from being the murderous cabal the denialist crowd makes them out to be, the ones I’ve met have been deeply compassionate and base their support of ARV’s on both the scientific research and the results they have personally seen in treatment.

    The only way the denialist perspective makes sense is if all of these doctors are in on some sort of murderous conspiracy where they are purposefully silent about ARV’s dire results, and where they repeatedly fabricate stories about their success. It should come as no surprise that these theories find their strongest support online and in communities where the long unavailability of treatment has driven the HIV+ to fatalistic despair. Denialist theories do not hold up to the rigor of scientific research or the reality of the effects of ARV treatment. I imagine the denialist movement will stay strong for many decades because it is in no way dependent on external facts.

    jspreen–thanks for your honest questions. I think you might learn the most from contacting some doctors who treat HIV/AIDS in your area and asking to sit down and talk with them about their experiences. I’m sure they would oblige you.

  108. #108 Pro-tea-hays-inhibi-door
    November 8, 2007

    Anyone capable of understanding science and the truth (i.e., posters other than the AIDS denialist trolls who are sadly a dime a dozen on this site), and who is genuinely interested in what’s happened in South Africa over the past decade, should read the following book: Nattrass N. 2007. Mortal Combat: AIDS Denialism and the Fight for Antiretrovirals in South Africa, University of KwaZulu Natal Press, Pietermaritzburg. “The Invisible Cure: Africa, the West, and the Fight Against AIDS” by Helen Epstein, which I recently reviewed in the J Clin Invest, is also excellent source material.

    For those interested in an excellent source of reading material here is the short list:

    The Origin, Persistence, and Failings of HIV/AIDS Theory (ISBN 0786430486) is a 2007 book by Henry Bauer.

    Science Sold Out: Does HIV Really Cause AIDS? (ISBN 1556436424) is a 2007 book by Rebecca Culshaw.

    A Critical Reappraisal of African AIDS Research and Western Sexual Stereotypes by Charles Geshekter May 1999

    DEBATING AZT MBEKI AND THE AIDS DRUG CONTROVERSY Anthony Brink Foreword by Martin Welz

    SCIENCE FICTIONS: A SCIENTIFIC MYSTERY, A Massive Cover-Up, and The Dark Legacy of Robert Gallo by John Crewdson (2002)

  109. #109 jspreen
    November 8, 2007

    As someone who has held a child that died because of Mbeki’s denialism, Mountain Man makes me sick. Of course, the children at the same orphanage suddenly stopped dying when they were put on antiretrovirals like AZT.

    That’s what you wrote, bdkeller. And after that you wrote that you’re willing to swear upon what’s dearest to you that it is the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Now, after reading that I figured you were a nurse or a doctor who has really gone through holding dying children in her/his arms and who thereafter has personally experienced huge progress once ARVs became available and that the kids stopped dying right then.
    Now, I’m not like all those guys here who massively try to make a person like Noreen, who’s talking from personal experience, change her mind and I said to myself: Hey, that bdkeller, that’s an interesting person I want to listen to. And also, I’d like to put him on stage with other health care workers, apologists and denialists, and see what comes out of their opposing experience.
    But just now I have started to doubt your experience and find it difficult not to see just another dogmatic HIV=Aids believer preaching for his church. Your post reminds me of that interview where ambassador Dybul, when questioned about EM pictures of HIV starts to boast about the pictures being all around and actually says: “I have one in my office”. It’s plain stupid, even HIV apologists agree that such picture does not exist, adding immediately, I admit, that it’s of no importance because today other scientific techniques supply work around methods.

    I think you’re basically wrong, bdkeller, when you write that There is, of course, the huge body of research supporting the facts that HIV causes AIDS and that the ratio first _hand_ HIV-researchers : second_hand_I_read_about_HIV-research_researchers is at best 1:1000, 1:10000 being probably much closer to reality.
    In other words, the huge body only seems to be huge. Which gives us an opportunity to put things quite differently than you express here: The only way the denialist perspective makes sense is if all of these doctors are in on some sort of murderous conspiracy. Its not at all the only way to see things, bdkeller, not at all. I don’t need to think of any conspiracy at all: all these doctors simply do the best they can with the knowledge they have and they all simply think that their knowledge can’t be wrong because so many share the same believes. But when it really comes to it, bdkeller, that’s all they share: believes. No one really knows from personal experience.

    But that is theorization. I want to see/read a discussion between in the field health care workers who speak out of personal experience. Cut out the bits about interaction with quite a few medical doctors, I know quite a few to.

  110. #110 bayman
    November 8, 2007

    Tara,
    Sorry I should have been more clear. My question was why do you continue to write posts with titles clearly calling Mbeki a denialist and make similar claims in your academic publications when you now acknowledge sources who state that he is not?

    There is indeed a big difference between calling someone a denialist and a skeptic. One implies irrationality and the other implies balanced thinking and careful consideration. I wish you were concerned about the precision of the terminology you use when writing about important issues, as a fair number of people seem to read what you have to say. As you must surely be aware, inflammatory language tends to polarize people, which might explain why the discussion comments inspired by your posts seem to so rapidly decline into name-calling and e-shouting matches. Maybe if you didn’t resort to such sensationalism and good-guy/bad-guy characterizations, the tone of ensuing discussion might follow suit and maybe even encourage people to think.

    Until then, you will remain my favorite corporatist/anti-skepticist/westerncentristic/Puritanist crusader. Or we could just drop the labels and try and get along.

  111. #111 Chris Noble
    November 8, 2007

    It appear from the paper that you quote, that because Mbeki was in minority in his own government, he abdicated from taking positions on HIV/AIDS questions, and therefore he had no major say in the present governamental HIV/AIDS say in South Africa/ and his views on this matter could not be translated in policies.

    So how could it be that “his views on HIV continue to harm his country (..) ?”.

    I think it is obvious that the only reason that the health minister remains the health minister is that she has Mbeki’s support. Together, although they have given lip service to the official ANC policy that HIV causes AIDS, they have done their best to delay and undermine the response to HIV/AIDS.

    Before the last election they announced targets for the distribution of antiretrovirals that they have consistently failed to meet. Remember the policies that they were elected upon included well defined targets for the distribution of the se drugs.

    When the deputy minister had a chance to actually do something it was not long before Mbeki sacked her.

    Meanwhile, they have let fraudsters prey upon vulnerable people by offering fake cures such as Ubhejane.

    They let Matthias Rath conduct illegal trials in South Africa with no consequences.

    If you read the articles on Virodene that I have linked to you can see how they sought to override their own health institutions.

  112. #112 Tara C. Smith
    November 8, 2007

    Bayman,

    I wish I could be as optimistic as you, but I’ve just been around the block too many times. Look at jspreen’s reaction to bdkeller above. Jan has no history with bd, and bd gave him a sincere and polite answer to Jan’s question, and even thanked him for asking honest questions. jspreen’s response? To “doubt his experience” and reiterate what he’s already said. Lather, rinse, repeat.

    Additionally, I think it is pretty clear from Mbeki’s writings that he’s in denial about how bad HIV has affected his country. His “I’ve never known anyone who died from AIDS” is in pretty stark contrast to the death of his spokesman.

    I understand very well the distinction between a “skeptic” and a denialist, and I also understand how those who vocally *deny* HIV as the causative agent of AIDS want people like me and others to lend respectability to their positions by calling them “skeptics” or “dissidents.” While Mbeki may not be as far on the denial scale as the Perth group or Duesberg, his refusal to believe the impact AIDS has had on his country, despite appeals from scientists, despite even appeals from hundreds of doctors in South Africa, surely makes him akin to a child putting their fingers in their ears and saying, “la la la la, I can’t hear you” and hoping the problem will go away. In other words, in denial.

  113. #113 Chris Noble
    November 8, 2007

    Sorry I should have been more clear. My question was why do you continue to write posts with titles clearly calling Mbeki a denialist and make similar claims in your academic publications when you now acknowledge sources who state that he is not?

    Mbeki is a true politician. He has rarely made any definite statements about HIV and AIDS. If you read the Castro Hlongwane document it is fairly clear that he is a denialist. He tries to create doubt where there shouldn’t be any.

    When he makes statements such as “A virus cannot cause a syndrome” what is he trying to say?

    Did you read the set of articles on his involvement with the Virodene scandal?

    The Virodene Affair

    If it’s all about finding an African solution rather than relying on evil colonial western science then Mbeki just looks ridiculous.

    Mbeki ignored the South African scientists. Instead he brought in people like Peter Duesberg, David Rasnick and Matthias Rath. Not much of an African solution.

    Virodene which was supposed to be an African solution turned out to be a complete disaster.

    It appears to be Mbeki that has turned the issue into one of race and colonialism and not the scientists.

  114. #114 Chris Noble
    November 8, 2007

    While Mbeki may not be as far on the denial scale as the Perth group…

    Even the Perth Group attempt to nuance their position by not saying directly that HIV doesn’t exist but rather that they have not seen the evidence that HIV exists. Instead of openly stating their position they pretend to be skeptics.

  115. #115 Michael
    November 8, 2007

    Gosh Tara! You said in regards to Mbeki:

    His “I’ve never known anyone who died from AIDS” is in pretty stark contrast to the death of his spokesman.

    Well girl, I am a gay man who has lived smack dab in the middle of a gay community since long before the word “HIV” or “AIDS” even existed. In this community where more than 5000 perished, including close friends and loved ones during the “AIDS” years, AND YET I HAVE NEVER KNOWN ANYONE THAT DIED OF AIDS EITHER!

    I have known some who died of pneumonia, some of liver failure, some of heart failure, some of kidney failure, some of systemic candida, some of tuberculosis, some of other things, BUT NOT A SINGLE ONE OF ANY OF THESE SO-CALLED “AIDS CASES” EVER DIED OF AIDS!

    The reason is simple, dear Tara. AIDS is a SYNDROME, and NOT A DISEASE!

    Thought you were smarter than that, Tara, but I suppose not!

  116. #116 Michael
    November 8, 2007

    Tara said:

    I also understand how those who vocally *deny* HIV as the causative agent of AIDS want people like me and others to lend respectability to their positions by calling them “skeptics” or “dissidents.”

    No Tara, not true. We couldn’t give a flying f**k what you think or what you call us, though your choice shows you to be an mean, petty, immature, belligerant, disrespectful, and fully biased individual, who in return warrants no respect from others.

    But no, Tara, we do not care less about any of this “lend respectability” shit. For we fully have our own self respect quite intact, thank you. But what we would like, Tara, is for you to show us that YOUR BELIEF has any respectability, and put the scientific citations where your mouth is and show us the scientific study citations that shows HIV, all by its wee little self, causes immune depression in human beings with any high degree of probability.

    Say what, says you! You, Tara, claim there is a “mountain of evidence”?

    Then PROVE IT TARA the TART! and show us FIVE, or even THREE, of EVEN JUST A SINGLE Citation out of your “mountain of evidence” that proves HIV causes immune suppression with a high degree of probability, to prove your beloved beliefs!

    Should be easy for you to find one or three or five citations to prove your position out of those big old mountains of evidence, Tara!

    And be sure the cites are not simply filled with individuals who are emotionally stressed, or lacking nutrition, or strung out on illicit drugs or AZT, or suffering from transfusions of factor VIII, or you will have not proved a thing at all to us, except that WE DENIALISTS ARE COMPLETELY CORRECT, AND HAVE BEEN FOR TWENTY YEARS!

  117. #117 jen_m
    November 8, 2007

    Bayman: there’s not that much name-calling. It’s mostly a few bad actors calling names. However, feelings do run high around this issue, on all sides. But Dr. Smith isn’t obliged to maintain a cool neutrality on topics that mean a great deal to her, just for the sake of providing an example for her commenters, either.

    If it would make you feel any better about the Westerncentrism and Puritanism pieces, I betcha that Dr. Smith harbors very few kind memories of President Ronald Reagan’s protracted silence concerning HIV/AIDS, and probably could drum up some downright vitriolic language around that.

  118. #118 Chris Noble
    November 8, 2007

    Well girl, I am a gay man who has lived smack dab in the middle of a gay community since long before the word “HIV” or “AIDS” even existed. In this community where more than 5000 perished, including close friends and loved ones during the “AIDS” years, AND YET I HAVE NEVER KNOWN ANYONE THAT DIED OF AIDS EITHER!

    Thank you for illustrating exactly why Mbeki is referred to as a Denialist.

  119. #119 Tara C. Smith
    November 8, 2007

    Thanks for proving my point, Michael.

  120. #120 Michael
    November 8, 2007

    No Tara, THANK YOU FOR PROVING MY POINT!.

    You have no evidence. Yet you blow your mouth off like an all knowing high priestess of virology!

    Thank you, Tara, for proving my own point that you are indeed a mean, belligerant, biased, EMPRESS OF HIV with NO CLOTHES AND NO PROOF FOR YOUR POSITION!

  121. #121 jen_m
    November 8, 2007

    Dr. Smith, you have been called a “Puritanist” and a “tart” (in all caps, no less) within two hours. Being a female scientist sure is glamorous.

  122. #122 Michael
    November 8, 2007

    Jen-m,

    Seeing as “tara the tart” (she does not deserve caps) is unable to supply us the cites that prove HIV as the cause of AIDS with any high degree of probability, then perhaps you would be so kind as to present us with these citations.

    After all, Jen-m, you said in a former thread that you “are not one of those denialists”.

    So why don’t YOU show all of us dingy denialists the scientific evidence for your belief, so we can rejoin civilized society again as card carrying members and believers of “the faith” of HIV=AIDS!

  123. #123 Chris Noble
    November 8, 2007

    Michael Geiger February 20, 2007 11:22 PM

    I will agree to shut up eternally on the dissident issue and I will refrain from ever again posting any dissident beliefs on this or any other site, and furthermore, I will take up arms with the opposing side, and I will henceforward be twice as determined to espouse only the establishment views.

  124. #124 bdkeller
    November 8, 2007

    jspreen,
    I see from your response and those of others that any amount of arguing will not persuade you of the truth because, as I said, the denialist position is not based on research but on a desire to believe an already-arrived-at position. Of course, you will say the same about so-called “apologists.” It is unfortunate for your argument that the evidence (both scientific and anecdotal) ultimately rests in our favor. But why should I give you a full explanation if you’ve already shown an unwillingness to even trust the few things I have said? Doesn’t sound like a worthwhile proposition.

    For the record, I am a real person and all of my statements were accurate. I have helped take care of children with HIV in Johannesburg,
    But again, it is not the anecdotal experiences I (and the doctors and others I’ve worked with) could tell you that prove that HIV causes AIDS and that ARVs prevent countless, needless death, it’s the research. It’s out their for your own perusal. The only reason I am concerned that you and your friends deny HIV as the cause of AIDS and ARVs as appropriate treatment is that I’ve seen the effect that public policy based on such nonsense can have.

    I’m going to go back to my studies now so I can learn how to prevent, treat, and cure disease. I’m going to be basing my studies soundly on the data, and hope you aren’t bothered too much by that. Cheers,
    Brett Keller

  125. #125 Michael
    November 8, 2007

    Hey Brett, thanks for your own anecdotal evidence, which certainly does not prove HIV causes anything. But you, ahhhemmmm, claim to “base your studies soundly on the data”.

    So present us “denialists”, as you enjoy calling us, THE DATA

    Please show us the scientific cites and studies that you hold so highly in regard, that clearly show HIV is the cause of AIDS with any high degree of probability. Until you do, you are just another of the brainwashed fools who think anecdotal experiences constitute verified reality!

  126. #126 Michael
    November 8, 2007

    Hey Chris, it seems the post you refer to above is authored by an incarnation of Abraham Lincoln, as it is not signed with my own name.

    Chris, seeing as “tara the tart” (she does not deserve caps), jen-m, and Brett are unable to supply us the cites that prove HIV as the cause of AIDS with any high degree of probability, then perhaps you would be so kind as to present us with these citations.

  127. #127 Nick Sullivan
    November 8, 2007

    Because Michael, you’re probably insane…

    Doesn’t matter how often Chris, adele, Tara, ElkMountainMan and others present evidence for HIV being the causative agent of AIDS, you wont accept it and probably never will. Why? Because in your mind, you’re right and everyone else who doesn’t agree with you on this is wrong. Oh and the constant use of capitals is a slight give away.

  128. #128 Michael
    November 8, 2007

    Note to self, AND to all other “denialists”.

    Continue to demand of each and every one of the avid faithful believers in HIV that they show us “denialists” five, or three, or even just a single scientific citation out of their “mountains of evidence” to substantiate that HIV causes immune suppression with any high degree of probability, to prove their beloved beliefs.

    Should be VERY easy for them after 25 years of this nonsense!

    And be sure that any of the cites they may present are not simply filled with individuals who are emotionally stressed, or lacking nutrition, or strung out on illicit drugs or AZT, or suffering from transfusions of factor VIII.

    Until they present such evidence, they are all simply full of shit, and this simple point proves it!

    Do NOT let them off the hook on supplying this evidence!

  129. #129 Michael
    November 8, 2007

    Hey Nick!

    Cut the shit and cut the mumbling and present the scientific proof that has NOT ONCE IN 25 YEARS been presented, let alone on any of these threads!

    Until you do, you are just one more brainwashed goon!

  130. #130 Michael
    November 8, 2007

    Hey Nick! Wake up!

    Chris, adele, Tara, ElkMountainMan and others HAVE NEVER presented any evidence for HIV being the causative agent of AIDS. Not even in a year and a half of tara’s threads on hiv/aids. If you have some evidence of any posts that they posted with this evidence, then please do present it!

    And make sure that any of the cites they supposedly presented are not simply filled with individuals who are emotionally stressed, or lacking nutrition, or strung out on illicit drugs or AZT, or suffering from transfusions of factor VIII.

  131. #131 Eva_Dance
    November 8, 2007

    So why don’t YOU show all of us dingy denialists the scientific evidence for your belief, so we can rejoin civilized society again as card carrying members and believers of “the faith” of HIV=AIDS!

    Here is the evidence that HIV causes AIDS for all of you dingy denialists, but sorry, even if you accept this government dogma, you guys are still rejected from rejoining civilized society because after all, lets face it, you are the very same undesirable gay drug addicts that we were trying to get rid of with the HIV drugs.

  132. #132 Michael
    November 8, 2007

    Eva, baby, you are cracking me up! Give me a good swig of that AZT and let me outa this nut house!

    Eva, darling. Can you present something that has at least been peer reviewed, instead of a page full of Bob Gallo and company’s swerving and dodging that was posted to hopefully counter Peter Duesberg’s accusations of “scientists gone wild”? The Niaids page is obviously Fauci and Gallo et al’s unsubstantiated non peer reviewed wishful thinking and anecdotals and ramblings including the laughable bit about some supposed but never verified or documented lab assistants?

  133. #133 golden boy
    November 8, 2007

    not peer reviewed? what do you consider journals like Current Opinion in Immunology and Journal of Infectious Diseases? the NIH document contains information taken from the peer-reviewed literature. i’m confused as to what your objection is.

  134. #134 Eva_Dance
    November 8, 2007

    “Houston, we have a problem”

    There is a Rebuttal to The Evidence That HIV Causes AIDS, NIAID Fact Sheet

    Who to believe now? We need a rebuttal to the rebuttal.

  135. #135 Michael
    November 8, 2007

    Hey goldie.

    Take a good look at the niaids piece and check out any of the studies presented. You will find there is NO study there at all, that evidences HIV as the cause of AIDS with even a moderate degree of probability. It is just an asundry collection of biased studies that did not control for other factors, such as drug abuse or malnutrition, plus bits of this and bits of that with anecdotes thrown in. Plus, the part about SIV being used as evidence for HIV is completely laughable, as SIV is most definitely NOT HIV. It is a much larger organism.

    Please note, goldie, that the die hard HIVologists that post on this thread are all dead silent or turning tails and running off when asked for their evidence that HIV causes AIDS with any high probability. The reason is, there ISN’T ANY!

  136. #136 Dustin
    November 8, 2007

    I’m afraid Nick called this one…

    …and Michael really needs to be banned.

  137. #137 Michael
    November 8, 2007

    Dustin, put your money where your mouth is, and show us denialists any peer reviewed studies that show HIV causes AIDS with any high probability. And make sure it is not just a study done on a bunch of emaciated worn down drug addicts with a hundred other cofactors please.

  138. #138 Michael
    November 8, 2007

    Unless tara presents the requested evidence to back her bias, tara needs to start a new thread, entitled:

    tara the terrible tart still in denial!

  139. #139 Michael
    November 8, 2007

    Unless tara presents the requested evidence to back her bias, tara needs to start a new thread, entitled:

    tara the terrible tart still in denial!

  140. #140 ElkMountainMan
    November 8, 2007

    Dear Michael and your many pseudonyms,

    Let’s try to remember the subject of this thread: not calling Tara names, not regaling us with your entertaining but empty prose, but rather Mbeki, denial, and the consequences for South Africans.

    Dear Pat,

    This is how I understand your position on South Africa and AIDS; please correct me where I’ve got you wrong:

    According to you, scientists have a need to exaggerate South African AIDS deaths (rounding an estimated 950 or so per day to 1000 per day). They have this need because they:
    1) wish to make a case for more funding of their work (“the AIDS cash cow,” as you wrote)
    2) want to profit from the sale of toxic antiretrovirals to people who don’t need them (more milk from the cash cow)
    3) have a need to blame on a phantom syndrome the many deaths resulting from the poverty they (or their governments) caused through racist, colonialist policies.

    So far, so good? If so, I partly disagree with you, but at least I understand your position. You lose me entirely when you switch gears and criticize scientists for supposedly withholding antiretrovirals from South Africans with AIDS over the objections of Thabo Mbeki.

    If you believe that antiretrovirals are toxic and that AIDS is just a new name for poverty, then should you not applaud any attempts to withhold ARVs from Africans?

    Not that those attempts had anything to do with science… can you really believe that scientists wish to withhold treatment from South Africans?

    If Thabo Mbeki has been pleading for ARVs and truly wants them for the people of SA, then why did he and his associates repeatedly attempt to slow their approval and distribution?

    Assuming that Mbeki has always wanted to bring in the drugs, how do you explain the disparities pointed out above (by bdkeller, I believe?) in the percentage of ARV-requiring patients in various African countries who receive the drugs? South Africa is near the bottom of the list; in some countries (Uganda was mentioned already), the percentage of patients recieving ARVs is three times higher than in SA.

    Pat, if you think me “arrogant,” I apologize. I ask these questions because I want to understand your position on Mbeki, South Africa, and ARVs. Do you have a position, or are you simply trying to ask provocative questions without regard to consistency?

  141. #141 ElkMountainMan
    November 8, 2007

    I am completely opposed to banning Michael, if only for gems such as this one, which give us a chance to correct some misconceptions about virology:

    SIV is most definitely NOT HIV. It is a much larger organism

    SIV and HIV are the same “size.” They have essentially the same genomic structure and proteins. Without care, one could be mistaken easily for the other. Some parts of HIV-1 are more closely related with SIV sequences than with HIV-2 sequences. Also a virus is not really an organism

  142. #142 Michael
    November 8, 2007

    My dearest friend, Elkmountain,

    I will certainly try to stay on topic, providing you can do the same. The topic here is Mbeki and his denialism, I gather, as such is the title of the piece.

    Now, Elkie, we first must ascertain whether Mbeki is actually in denial, don’t you think?. Prove to us that Mbeki is actually in denial by presenting us the scientific cites that show with any high probability that HIV causes immune suppression!

    For God’s sake, man, you are a long standing HIV researcher receiving tax payer funds for this issue! This should be but a 1 minute task for someone such as yourself! There should be hundreds of such cites in the “mountain of HIV studies”. Your claims and beliefs about HIV and AIDS should are based on their even existing such evidence! You should know of at least one such citation by rote, without even having to look it up. It would be the very foundation for all of your damned research!

    Try to stay on subject here Elkie, and refrain from your attempts to avoid or change the subject! Show us the cites and I, and undoubtedly Mbeki and his Manto, his Minister of Health, will undoubtedly cease from our denialist beliefs!

    After all, Elkmountainman, it is for lack of a single such citation, that I, as well as Mbeki himself, and his minister of health, and hundreds of thousands of others, are now labeled by tara, and you and yours as crackpots and “denialists”! Please show us why we are mistaken!

  143. #143 MPW
    November 8, 2007

    Even if I came to this “debate” with absolutely no prior knowledge of the specific subject matter of HIV and AIDS, the behavior of the deniers on this thread would instantly skew me to strong skepticism towards their position. Just the conspiracy theories that dismiss most epidemiologists and doctors around the world as “big pharma” shills, rubbing their hands and cackling gleefully as they contemplate the deliberate genocide of Africans, would be enough. Add in the sexist name-calling (“Tara the Tart”? Really? Seriously? And you’re not a ringer for Tara’s side, deliberately trying to lose the argument?). The ALL CAPS shouting. The playground-level strawmen (“of course you believe in HIV – you think the government is always right”). And I can’t even make sense of the posts quoting those paragraphs about HIV/AIDS activists trying to force price drops in anti-HIV drugs. They’re trying to lower drug prices and push governments to break patents because… they’re shills for big pharma?

    I get a kick out of observing and occasionally encouraging the goofy ramblings of evolution deniers. HIV deniers are too scary/scuzzy to even be funny. No wonder I tend to avoid these threads now – I feel like I need a shower.

  144. #144 Chris Noble
    November 8, 2007

    Hey Chris, it seems the post you refer to above is authored by an incarnation of Abraham Lincoln, as it is not signed with my own name.

    I somehow doubt that Abraham Lincoln posted that message. Abraham Lincoln had a reputation for not lying. You don’t.

    You promised to stop posting here. You lied.

  145. #145 John Moore
    November 8, 2007

    I concur with ElkMountainMan that “Michael” should be allowed to continue posting so long as this thread continues. To the few people on this site who might be unaware of who “Michael” is, he is Michael Geiger of San Diego, HEAL, a one-man-and-a-rather-smarter-dog AIDS denialist group. His stunning ignorance of the virology, epidemiology and immunology of HIV infection is extreme even by the standards of AIDS denialists in general. Thus, his recent comment “SIV is a much larger organism than HIV” ranks with Jan Spreen’s classically idiotic posting that TB is nothing other than “the recovery phase of lung cancer” among the all-time scientific howlers. Ignorance like this is very useful to AIDS scientists in their fight to destroy AIDS denialism, as it nicely exposes the foolishness of our enemies. We archive comments such as Geiger’s and Spreen’s, to demonstrate to journalists and neutrals just what type of people we are dealing with. The only pity is that Geiger is too insignificant a denialist for his comments to be really useful, as nobody takes him seriously in the real world.

    It is also worth noting that as well as calling female scientists “Tarts”, Geiger is prone to using this Blog to issue threats of violence against those whom he does not like. He also sends letters to senior university officials that are full of scatological references to feces, toilet paper, as well as being riddled with epithets and general abuse (but of course with no scientific content). Such activities of course reveal AIDS denialism for what it truly is – the province of twisted minds, sick and puerile personas and the scientifically ignorant.

    So, Tara, please do let Michael Geiger carry on posting. We have not such a useful set of written material for our archives since Harvey Bialy stopped writing his own Blog.

    MPW is also correct. Reading scuzzy postings like “Michael”‘s is a rather nasty experience. Politically useful, but nasty nonetheless.

    John Moore

  146. #146 Michael
    November 8, 2007

    Elkie, nice try at avoidance again, but you are still full of shit. You claimed:

    SIV and HIV are the same “size.” They have essentially the same genomic structure and proteins.

    Simply stated, HIV-1 is claimed to consist of 15 proteins and 9.1 kb of RNA, and SIV is claimed to have nearer to 10 kb. That alone is NEARLY A TEN PERCENT DIFFERENCE!

    TEN PERCENT difference is about the same difference of ten percent DNA difference between a clam and a primate! Obviously HIV and SIV are not the same the same and are not interchangeable.

    SIV is NOT HIV, no matter how hard you and yours try to spin it!

    Furthermore, HIV/SIV (SHIV) where parts of HIV are spliced to parts of SIV, and that was used as an animal model for supposedly proving HIV causes AIDS, was a completely different size from both SIV and HIV and is not even found anywhere in nature, and therefore, neither SIV NOR SHIV can possibly be used to prove HIV causes AIDS in humans.

    They are NOT the same and are NOT interchangeable.

  147. #147 Zen master
    November 9, 2007

    “While Mbeki may not be as far on the denial scale as the Perth group or Duesberg, his refusal to believe the impact AIDS has had on his country, despite appeals from scientists, despite even appeals from hundreds of doctors in South Africa, surely makes him akin to a child putting their fingers in their ears and saying, “la la la la, I can’t hear you” and hoping the problem will go away. In other words, in denial.” — Tara Smith

    “The experience of AIDS medicine tends to confirm that the origin of human suffering is anxiety of death. Its vision of calamity was not confected from the morbid anxieties of those sick to death, nor from the depths of extreme pain, but sprang from the minds of well medical scientists. The vision of mass death expresses, I have argued,

    —> the trauma of a profession that has assumed responsibilities beyond its capacity to deliver

    The inflation of a small number of sick persons into an imaginary gigantic pool of suffering, and the urgency of ‘saving lives’ from an unknown virus, started an odyssey that courses through fraud in Dr. Gallo’s laboratory, the helplessness of accountability systems to detect and penalise the fraud, and the haunting curse of Kimberly Bergalis…. Presently we travel down the fork in the road that leads to Kimberly’s curse. There are many Kimberlys among us. But we can retrace our steps, scale down our expectations of medicine, and travel the alternative path on which suffering is transfigured by its meaning.

    —> In the case of AIDS, retracing the steps places the burden of suffering on the medical profession’s recognition that a phantom epidemic symbolises its misconception of the aims of medicine.

    — Hiram Caton

    “Even if you don’t get AIDS, YOU STILL DIE” — Zen master

    The reason the apologists can’t see the evidence against HIV is not because of some grand conspiracy. It’s because to admit as much would mean giving up their role as saviors of the world. If you don’t believe me, just look at the transhuman movement, that recent field of science and culture where scientists are honestly speaking of making people immortal and doing away with “unfavorable” aspects of being human. Their position is simply the most perverted form of this affliction. But make no mistake, it is PRECISELY the same intellectual foundation behind the HIV apologists.

    However, the world will go on with or without their struggle. People have been living and breathing and having sex and dying for millions of years. The world is not “dying of AIDS”. We’ll survive.

    Even if you don’t get AIDS, you STILL die.

  148. #148 bayman
    November 9, 2007

    Chris Noble et al.,
    I really want to join the anti-denialist camp. You guys seem pretty intelligent, fairly reasonable, but most of all, some of the people arguing against you seem really crazy. But I still have trouble understanding what seems to be one of your main arguments:

    “Mbeki ignored the South African scientists. Instead he brought in people like Peter Duesberg, David Rasnick and Matthias Rath. Not much of an African solution.”

    So the argument as I understand it is that Mbeki entertained Duesberg at a summit. Duesberg is a denialist, Mbeki listened to his words, therefore Mbeki is a denialist. However, Luc Montagnier, one of the co-discoverers of HIV as the cause of AIDS, was also in attendance. So were other scientists with views more compatible to your own. So following you own logic, Luc Montagnier discovered HIV, Mbeki heard him speak, so Mbeki knows HIV is the cause of AIDS…wait, I guess he can’t be a denialist and a truthist…maybe we’re using some faulty logic here? Or do you have some reason to believe that given equal opportunity to be heard, Duesberg somehow argued his beliefs more effectively than a real-deal HIV scientist? Or, maybe we should blame Robert Gallo for Mbeki’s denialism, since he is the world’s foremost authority on HIV and declined the invite to participate in Mbeki’s summit and influence his policy. Oh well, maybe he heard from Tara that Mbeki was a denialist so there wasn’t even any point trying…

    Here’s the summary of what went down at Mbeki’s AIDS advisory panel.

    http://www.info.gov.za/otherdocs/2001/aidspanelpdf.pdf

    Chris, do you believe that hosting an open discussion between scientists representing a diverse range of viewpoints on AIDS constitutes denialism?

  149. #149 Jim
    November 9, 2007

    Michael,
    “And make sure it is not just a study done on a bunch of emaciated worn down drug addicts with a hundred other cofactors please.”

    why don’t you provide us the study where a cohort of individuals that meet the criteria above are HIV- and exhibit symptoms of AIDS. This should be easy considering the vast amount of research you denialists do.

    “I have known some who died of pneumonia, some of liver failure, some of heart failure, some of kidney failure, some of systemic candida, some of tuberculosis, some of other things, BUT NOT A SINGLE ONE OF ANY OF THESE SO-CALLED “AIDS CASES” EVER DIED OF AIDS!”

    Are you purposefully this obtuse or is this a serious comment? I remember feeling clever when I thought this way back in elementary school.

  150. #150 Michael
    November 9, 2007

    JP Moore said:

    Geiger is prone to using this Blog to issue threats of violence against those whom he does not like.

    Well, hell, JP! You should know all about threats of violence, seeing as I have an email directly from you to me, saying, and I quote:

    This IS a war, there ARE no rules, and we WILL crush you, one at a time, completely and utterly

    And undoubtedly, either you yourself or one of your mooron buddies are the ones who sent me an anonymous email greeting card from “Encircling Pistol” with the sole word “BANG” in the letter body a few months ago!

    OOOHHHHH JP! I am soooooo scared!

    And don’t worry, JP, I am sure the FBI can figure out which of you moorons sent it to me! And hopefully such threats will be enough to have you deported back to UKiland, JP!

    So do bring it on JP! Get to crushing! And I even have a couple of buddies right here in my desk drawer for just such an occasion!

    But as I know you yourself have no balls to back your own threats of violence, perhaps you would be so kind as to just stay on the subject of this thread, and show us “denialists” five, or three, or even just a single scientific citation out of your “mountains of evidence” to substantiate that HIV causes immune suppression with any high degree of probability, to prove your beloved beliefs.

    Particularly as there is no such evidence on your propaganda riddled, laughably called AIDSunTRUTH website that nobody but you and your assistant monkeys ever read!

    And be sure that any of the cites you may present are not simply filled with individuals who are emotionally stressed, or lacking nutrition, or strung out on illicit drugs or AZT, or suffering from transfusions of factor VIII.

    And undoubtedly JP, you will post no such study because none exists, and you will either run away and hide or scream out more of your very dignified ad hom attacks, just like the yappy little monkey that you have always been!

    PS: JP, You and your ego are an abomination not just to science, but to all of mankind!

  151. #151 Chris Noble
    November 9, 2007

    Chris, do you believe that hosting an open discussion between scientists representing a diverse range of viewpoints on AIDS constitutes denialism

    Just as in the “debate” over evolution there are not two sides with two equally valid viewpoints. When people argue for an open discussion about evolution they are really arguing for ID and creationism.

    Mbeki was looking for justification to avoid doing anything. The costs of tackling HIV/AIDS was going to be large. The attraction of scientists that argue that HIV does not exist or if it does exist it doesn’t cause AIDS is obvious. All you have to do is create enough doubt and then you don’t have to do anything.

    What would people think if Bush ignores the IPCC and holds his own conference with an equal number of AGW “skeptics” and real cliumate scientists? If that happened I would make the conclusion that Bush was doing his best to create doubt about AGW so he doesn’t have to do anything.

    I am judging Mbeki not just on the Presidential AIDS panel but on his other comments and actions.

    He claimed not have known anybody that died from AIDS despite the the death of his spokesman Parks Mankahlana who had died euphemistically after a long illness. Parks Mankahlana died from AIDS.

    His actions that undermined the rollout of antiretrovirals after the pharmaceutical companies reduced prices is undeniable.

    If Mbeki’s point was the cost of the antiretrovirals then why did he go to the lengths he did to sow doubts and denial about HIV?

  152. #152 Chris Noble
    November 9, 2007

    Particularly as there is no such evidence on your propaganda riddled, laughably called AIDSunTRUTH website that nobody but you and your assistant monkeys ever read!

    If nobody reads the website then how do you know that it contains no evidence? You are simply confirming what is extremely obvious that you are at all interested in the evidence. You have already made your mind up and nothing will change your mind.

  153. #153 Michael
    November 9, 2007

    Hey Chris, you said: Parks Mankahlana died from AIDS.

    That is another total lie Chris. AIDS is a definition of a syndrome, it is not a disease nor a cause of death, therefore Parks could NOT have died from AIDS. He may have died from liver failure after taking AZT, or he may have died from TB, or any one of hundreds of other things, but he surely did NOT die from AIDS.

    As I said, I am a gay man who has lived in the middle of the 6th largest gay community for the last 30 years, and I have had lovers and friends diagnosed as HIV and as AIDS< but even I DON”T KNOW ANYONE WHO EVER DIED OF AIDS EITHER, because AIDS is a syndrome not a disease. Nobody has EVER died of AIDS.

    So Chris, perhaps you would stay on topic and present the study or studies that show HIV is the cause of the state of immune suppression called AIDS, as I have been asking you for this evidence for at least a couple of years now. You certainly should have found it after all this time! OR BEEN MAN ENOUGH TO ADMIT THAT SUCH EVIDENCE DOES INDEED NOT EXIST!

    But Chris, as you have shown us time and again, you are indeed a liar, and are most dishonest, and you have no integrity, and you are incapable of admitting when you are mistaken, and, you are full of bullshit!

  154. #154 John Moore
    November 9, 2007

    Let me be very, very clear here:

    AIDS science is indeed in a war with the AIDS denialists, and the denialist leadership is indeed being targeted, not by violence or by threats of violence, but by legal and moral methods intended to destroy their ability to influence vulnerable people who have been persuaded to make choices that damage their health and the health of others. It will take time to defeat all the denialist leadership, but it’s being done (as some of them have already found out) and, in the end, science and morality will crush pseudoscience and evil.

    That a war must be fought and will be won is sadly necessary as a life-saving measure. The time for scientific debate and discourse has long passed; the debate was held, and won by AIDS scientists, via the peer-reviewed literature over a 25-year period. The denialists refuse to accept their defeat, and continue to act against the best interests of public health. Hence the gloves came off, and it became necessary to move to a new phase – the destruction of AIDS denialism as a movement. However, I say again: this ongoing fight does not involve the use of violence against its leadership, or the issuing of threats of violence, and it never has. Geiger’s comments on this point are as foolish, inaccurate and misguided as his opinions on the relative sizes of SIV and HIV. And as he well knows, he himself is not being targeted as he’s not a leader of the AIDS denialist movement; we only go after the organ-grinders. Moreover, we consider Geiger’s craziness as advantageous to our side, so see no reason to hinder his actions.

    AIDS denialism kills people. It has killed tens, perhaps hundreds, of thousands of people in South Africa as a result of Mbeki’s personal denialism and dangerous public policies; it has killed very many individuals in the western world, including, ironically, many AIDS denialists who themselves died of AIDS (see the postings on AIDSTruth.org); it killed Eliza Jane Scovill. These sad, unnecessary and utterly avoidable deaths represent the casus bellum for the battle between AIDS science and AIDS denialism. We make no apologies for this war; it was thrust upon us.

    Freedom of speech has acknowledged limits when it comes to public health and safety. It is not legal to promote cigarette smoking by children; it is not legal to shout “Fire” in a crowded cinema; it is not legal to tell a drunk or a mentally impaired person to consume a bottle of bleach. At present, it is, unfortunately, still legal to deny that HIV causes AIDS and to oppose the use of antiretroviral drugs to treat or prevent HIV infection. Because the denialists do still have that legal right, there is a moral imperative to fight them, using whatever tactics are legally and ethically permissible.

    Geiger refers to my British origins (although as I am now an American citizen, his reference to having me deported is as misguided as the rest of his posting). A rather greater and better known Briton once said:

    we shall fight on the beaches,
    we shall fight on the landing grounds,
    we shall fight in the fields and in the streets,
    we shall fight in the hills;
    we shall never surrender.

    This was a reference by Winston Churchill to the fight against the Nazis.

    It seems rather appropriate as a statement of AIDS sciences’ intent to defeat the AIDS denialists.

    John Moore

  155. #155 Chris Noble
    November 9, 2007

    That is another total lie Chris. AIDS is a definition of a syndrome, it is not a disease nor a cause of death, therefore Parks could NOT have died from AIDS.

    That is a silly semantic game. Mankahlana was infected with HIV. The HIV caused immune suppression which lead to opportunistic infections. He died from these opportunistic infections.

    So Chris, perhaps you would stay on topic and present the study or studies that show HIV is the cause of the state of immune suppression called AIDS, as I have been asking you for this evidence for at least a couple of years now.

    You have been given the evidence time and time again. The fact that you do not accept the evidence has little to do with the quality or quantity of the evidence and everything to do with your psychological state of mind.

    Your response to the Ascher et al paper is indicative of you capabilities of understanding and debating the scientific studies.

    Everyone knows that Ascher was Tony Fauci’s well paid buttboy and pet lapdog…

  156. #156 cooler
    November 9, 2007

    These viral loads sounds so scary!, hundereds of thousands of virus particles in the blood! Got any electron microscope pictures from patients blood confirming this?
    Or is this just another act of hiv
    Woo created on a labratory bench?

    “if you make a thousand copies of a dollar bill how much money do you have?” kary mullis hiv skeptic nobel prize winning inventor of the PCR

    NO animal model, tons of animals injected, nothing happened.
    no explanation how a virus thats in 1 in thousand cells destroys the immune system

    not one study that shows that people without any risk factors such as drug abuse, mycoplasmas, AZT severe mental illness even get AIDS vs matched controls. Just extend the window period by to 10 years to buy time to save Gallo’s hypothesis!

    Cant wait for the vaccine, because well all test positive then! Becuase most every other virus causes disease before antibodies, thats why we get vaccines!

    see hiv fact or fraud.

  157. #157 BG
    November 9, 2007

    Wow, this Michael person really puts the demented in demented fuckwit.

  158. #158 Chris Noble
    November 9, 2007

    Bayman writes:

    I really want to join the anti-denialist camp. You guys seem pretty intelligent, fairly reasonable, but most of all, some of the people arguing against you seem really crazy. But I still have trouble understanding what seems to be one of your main arguments:

    I have trouble understanding what your point is. Are you saying that the evidence that HIV exists is lacking? Or that HIV causes AIDS? Or that antiretrovirals are effective in reducing mother-to-child-transmission of HIV? Or that antiretrovirals are effective at reducing mortality and morbidity?

    I also wonder what you think a responsible response from a leader of a country that is threatened by HIV/AIDS should be.

    a) Fight with the pharmaceutical companies to make antiretroviral drugs affordable.

    b) Launch education campaigns to try to reduce the spread of HIV

    c) Invite cranks from Australia who will tell you that HIV doesn’t exist.

    d) Pretend that nobody dies from AIDS because it is a syndrome

  159. #159 scienceteacherinexile
    November 9, 2007

    Hi all, I know this comment is a change of gear as I can see it has been severely troll-jacked. It seems to be common here although I don’t read this blog daily (I’ll try to change that Tara, I do like your posts). I am not interested in getting into the above exchanges as it is a waste to me.

    I’m an American who has been living here in South Africa for over 9 years. I have seen a lot of the developments first hand. I have even been to a government hospital in Soweto (quite an experience).
    I do believe Mbeki is a denialist. The uproar he caused in 2000 was palpable here. There are excellent doctors and other medical personnel in SA. Now, for the government to put those professionals on the same level as an old fart sitting in front of hut out in the contryside with a loin cloth and headress who will give you “muti”, disgusts me.
    Mbeki did basically shut up because of pressure from the ANC. However, his support of Tshabalala-Msimang shows his mindset. Tshabalala-Msimang is probably the worst health minister this country could possibly have. She has stated before that olive oil and garlic is a treatment for HIV. Earlier this year, she received a liver transplant, and it came out that she had forced hospital staff to run out to fetch her booze (during an earlier non-related stay in hospital). She was fired in Botswana earlier in her career for stealing from the hospital at which she worked. And, there are lots of other things. I think she is vile, and damages this country immensly.
    One of the deputy ministers was dismissed a couple of months ago because she would not toe the party line. She was vocal about the HIV/AIDS pandemic, and Tshabalala-Msimang and Mbeki did not like it.

    Now here’s an important point, Tara: You may have even worse stories to post about in the future related to SA and HIV/AIDS. As we speak, the succession race for the ANC leadership is brewing. One of the candidates who is near the top of the pile for the ANC is Jacob Zuma. Zuma has a lot of support from some areas. This guy is a slimy, crook in my opinion but I digress. Last year, he went on trial for rape. Without getting into the specifics of the rape case itself, several things came out during the trial. Zuma is married, but claims that in his “culture” (he is a Zulu, and I put the quotes around culture, because I have personally asked other Zulus who say this is not the case, and he is using culture as an excuse to be a pig), it is acceptable to basically bang anybody you want. If you think you might like it more than a couple of times, then pay your lebola and marry however many women you want (note these are tribal marriages, so not the same as an official state-recognised marriage).
    But here is the kicker: He stated during the trial that he had consentual sex with the accuser, knowing that she was HIV positive (he knew very well), without a condom, and that after the sex he had a shower to cut down his risk of infection.
    Folks if this man succeeds Mbeki for the ANC leadership, he WILL be the next president of South Africa. The mind boggles.
    Fortunately, he is now up on corruption charges, and it does not look like he will be able to easily shake them. Also the Xosa population really don’t want the guy leading them, so there may be pressure to avoid Zuma in order to avoid a split within the ANC (and it is not just the Xosas, the party is complicated, but I simplified).
    The only problem is that while this should effectively nix his chances, the ANC seems to consider changing the constitution so that Mbeki can serve another term as their other option.

  160. #160 Braganza
    November 9, 2007

    Dear bdkeller, scienceteacherinexile, John Moore,

    I appreciate your comments and the fact that you have field experience.

    Do you think that engaging with the RSA government (instead of moving an hostile campaign against Mbeki) could be useful to solve HIV/AIDS problems in Southern Africa or no ?

    For example, last week I have been in a meeting with the officer in charge of HIV/AIDS (in the Commonwealth offices in London) and he told that there is no compreensive national plan to tackle the epidemy in Swaziland, despite the high infection rate in this country.I understand that some pressure should be done on the Swazi government to control its own epidemics of HIV/AIDS, otherwise not only HIV crisis in Swaziland will grow but also it will be a focus of continuous reinfection in the Natal border. South African government with internationla help, may be the partner of choice to exercise such pressure.

    I ask all this because I thought that contructive engagement is a good political concept, I understand that Mbeki have no real say in HIV/AIDS in SouthAfrican policies, but others members of the government/ANC are really be worry on the AIDS questions.

    Impression that I have is that in AIDS/HIV questions, and as confirmed by the Guardian paper above reported, Mbeki is just a figurehead. Criticizing him now does not help to tackle the problems.

    Am I correct ?

  161. #161 jspreen
    November 9, 2007

    But again, it is not the anecdotal experiences I (and the doctors and others I’ve worked with) could tell you

    Holding babies in your arms who suddenly stop dying the day you administer a new drug is far from anecdotal experience in my book and when you wrote your first message I’m quite sure you had the feeling that your experience itself could blow denialism to smithereens. Which is perfectly the case if what you write is exactly what happened. That’s why I wanted yo know more. You don’t have to thank me for my questioning, because there’s absolutely no kindness or honesty in it, only eagerness to know more about it and an attempt to get these agressive going nowhere discussions moving somewhere.
    You wrote yourself I wouldn’t say it is wholly based on personal experience which means, the way I see it, that you cannot possibly swear that your statements about kids who suddenly stopping dying are absolutely accurate.

    Your reaction, as well as Tara’s, to my previous post is rediculous. True, I don’t know you, so why should I not trust what you write? But give me one reason why I should? Trusting each other has nothing to do here. I want plain, indeniable facts.

    My statement about the 1:1000 or even 1:10000 ratio, where’s your reaction? Do you agree with me?
    My statement about the ambassador boasting about non-existing EM pictures being all around and even in his office: where’s your reaction? Do you agree with me?

    Apologists, they always start with a big mouth about overwhelming evidence but when it comes to it, there’s no evidence nowhere.
    I myself, on the other hand, am constantly providing, may be not evidence but at least very clear and logical reasoning, but all you people can come up with are phrases about how stupid I really am.
    My statement about lung TB always being preceded by lung cancer and always accompagnied by an oedema in the brain stem, hence the head aches, together with the reasoning that lung cancer is caused by a traumatic moment of fear of death and that that is exactly the reason why terminally ill people always have breating problems, you can’t get away from that with name calling and some stupid declaration of war on denialism.

    BTW, J. Pee Moore, your Churchill quote sounds nice, but it doesn’t hold because it’s not his side you’re on.

  162. #162 scienceteacherinexile
    November 9, 2007

    Braganza,
    I do think extensive engagement with the SA government by the UN would be very beneficial, but, I think to be effective, there would still have to be heavy pressure on SA to carry through with the plans.
    There are many in government who work extremely hard to fight this pandemic, and would do well with the constructive approach you suggest. Businesses here as well are spending much money on different programs and are attempting to be proactive not only within their own business, but also the community at large to combat the pandemic.
    I think the damage that Mbeki is doing is through not making HIV/AIDS a more urgent issue. And, as I mentioned before, keeping a horrible, horrible health minister who he so staunchly supports. The messages coming from the top are not appropriate.
    Having said that, western nations could do much to help in the battle, but it does not help when the US say that they will give millions, but you can only use it on abstinence only education programs. If those programs are a flop in the US, they are a nightmare here and I think have gone the way of the Dodo. At my previous workplace, and in many public buildings, and at any clinic, you can get free condoms.
    I forgot to mention earlier another thing that I found disgusting. The government would not supply Nivirapin (someone help me if that is incorrect) to HIV+ pregnant women which greatly reduces mother to child transmission. They eventually did because of pressure from various places, but many children are now sitting here with HIV that should have been born free of the infection because the government was dragging it’s feet.

  163. #163 bdkeller
    November 9, 2007

    Brazanga,
    Constructive engagement with RSA’s government is of course the way to go, and nothing will get accomplished if the South African government (and Swaziland’s and other governments) aren’t behind the plans. In expressing my earlier disgust with Mbeki I was making a personal statement, not a statement on the best policy approach. Mbeki may only be a figurehead, but the difference between a figurehead who pushes strongly for the right approach and one who dithers around and makes unfounded excuses when decisive action is needed is important.

  164. #164 bdkeller
    November 9, 2007

    jspreen,
    I think personal experience is by definition anecdotal when I’m telling you about it online. What else does anecdotal mean to you? And yes, my experience–and that of the patients saved by ARVs–does of course blow denialism to smithereens.

    The children I worked with were dying because they were born with HIV in a window of time when SA could have implemented programs to prevent transmission of HIV from mother to child, but had not at least in part because of Mbeki’s flirtation with the denialists. It seems that Mbeki found denialism desirable because he was faced with a political dilemma (providing treatment to millions of South Africans) that he could not resolve. The overpricing of the ARVs by drug companies certainly also played a role in that situation, so the South African activists who helped drive down the prices are to be commended.

    At the time I was there ARV treatment was being phased in, and both adult and childhood death rates from HIV/AIDS were dropping. For those who were already at an advanced stage of HIV/AIDS (with their status established by ELISA, and disease progression by low CD4 counts, high viral load, and the presence of characteristic opportunistic infections) the ARV treatment was being made available too late, so some adults and children were still dying. Since I left the hospice/orphanage (in 2004) I have been in touch with people who have worked at the hospice about how the kids were doing. One year later (summer 2005) all of the children who I had worked with (who were on ARVs) were still alive and much healthier. That is a dramatic turnaround for a place where they usually only lived several months or years from admission to the hospice, despite getting incredible care and nutrition. I am not as familiar with the adult situation simply because most of the work I did while there was with children, though I understand it parallels the children’s experiences.
    One of the people who kept me updated on the situation was there doing her masters dissertation research in medical anthropology. Her research largely resolved around the so-called “Lazarus syndrome,” which is basically how people who have long expected to die and had been progressing toward that end, and are now put on ARV treatment and regain their weight, their health, and their hope, deal with their new situation.

    Will answer the rest later.

  165. #165 ElkMountainMan
    November 9, 2007

    Apologies; this is an off-topic response to Michael’s comments about HIV and SIV.

    Michael wrote that,

    Simply stated, HIV-1 is claimed to consist of 15 proteins and 9.1 kb of RNA, and SIV is claimed to have nearer to 10 kb. That alone is NEARLY A TEN PERCENT DIFFERENCE!

    The protein-coding portions of HIV-1 and SIV are almost identical in length, around 8500 nt. Slight length differences between reported sequences of HIV and SIV strains are due to differences in the non-coding terminal regions (or to how much of the non-coding terminal regions is cloned and sequenced).

    For example, “HXB2,” a commonly-used HIV-1 reference: 9719 nt, and NC_001549 (SIV): 9623 nt.

    Of course, the close relationship between HIV-1 and SIV is best established by comparing the organization and sequences of their genomes, not the sizes, as Michael’s next comment demonstrates.

    TEN PERCENT difference is about the same difference of ten percent DNA difference between a clam and a primate!

    The clam and human genomes are almost equal in size. Compared with these two, the chicken genome is less than half as large, while the frog has more than double the genetic material. The lungfish genome is about 30 times as large. By Michael’s reasoning, humans must be much more closely related to clams than to chickens, frogs, or lungfish. When we examine genetic sequences from these five organisms, we find that he is wrong.

    Sequences from HIV and SIV are more closely related to each other than to any other known sequences. No, HIV is not SIV, but these two lentiviruses have very close ties.

  166. #166 pat
    November 9, 2007

    JP Moore,

    You ceased being a scientist long ago and have now become a general complete with foot soldiers.

    “using whatever tactics are legally and ethically permissible.”

    On the internet I can understand this but when it comes to political leaders and such then your approach is far from sane and will cause further “stone-walling” and foot dragging.

    War on poverty didn’t work
    War on drugs didn’t work
    War on war isn’t woring either.
    Why you think your “war” is going to work escapes me.

    But it is your war, you fight it on the beaches if you like.

    Stell Dir vor es ist Krieg und keiner geht hin!

  167. #167 pat
    November 9, 2007

    To our racist americam friend who has been living in SA for 9 years.

    “Now, for the government to put those professionals on the same level as an old fart sitting in front of hut out in the contryside with a loin cloth and headress who will give you “muti”, disgusts me.”

    You take to some of the locals very well. Have you also called people ragheads by any chance?

    You say:

    “Earlier this year, she received a liver transplant, and it came out that she had forced hospital staff to run out to fetch her booze (during an earlier non-related stay in hospital)”

    and

    “She was fired in Botswana earlier in her career for stealing from the hospital at which she worked.”

    Mbeki writes these lines:

    “However, the hospitalisation of our Minister of Health will have taught us
    that our value system is changing towards an ugly and inhumane direction. In
    this regard, views were expressed and a campaign waged essentially to convey
    the brutal message that everybody concerned, including the doctors who
    treated her, should have allowed Manto Tshabalala-Msimang to die.

    Various propositions were advanced in this regard by and through the media.
    One of these was that the Donald Gordon Medical Centre carried out the liver
    transplant when it did because I, as President of the Republic, had obliged
    the medical centre to do so. Alternatively, the medical centre had treated
    her as a priority patient, because she is the Minister of Health.

    Consequently, as another proposition, allegedly the doctors at the medical
    centre had compromised all ethical medical principles to enable Manto
    Tshabalala-Msimang to jump the queue, displacing other patients who should
    have been treated first.

    The unadorned truth is that the allegation about our intervention with the
    medical centre was entirely false. Similarly, the accusation that the
    doctors at this centre had given preference to the Minister of Health, ahead
    of other and waiting patients, responding to our pressure, was also a
    complete fabrication. Equally, the suggestion that, unprompted, the medical
    centre unethically broke some rules, to enable itself to admit the Minister
    of Health as a priority patient, is an unadulterated concoction.

    It is obvious that those who deliberately manufactured and peddled these
    lies did so to argue that Manto Tshabalala-Msimang should not have been
    treated, and should have been allowed to suffer and die. They were enraged
    that the Donald Gordon Medical Centre saved her life, whereas they wished
    and wish that her health condition should and could have been allowed to
    kill her.”

    The following is an interesting read and puts this sentence of JP Moore into perspective “Because the denialists do still have that legal right, there is a moral imperative to fight them, using whatever tactics are legally and ethically permissible.”.

    Here they discuss exactly what JP Moore thinks is legally and ethically permissible.
    http://www.journalism.co.za/insight/time-for-some-soul-searching-2.html

  168. #168 Adele
    November 9, 2007

    Very funny pat I guess everyone is racist except you with your little german sayings. what is german your second language you have to brag about. Sheesh.

    Dont disagree with pat or know more about South Africa then her or god forbid GO to South Africa and live bc that makes you racist!!

    Oh and SO SHAWCKING Mbeki doesn’t think his minister got special treatment!! Will you tell us next Bush thinks there’s WMDs in Iraq, I guess it must be true then!!

  169. #169 John Moore
    November 9, 2007

    Braganza, I don’t have “field experience” of the political scene in SA. My knowledge is second-hand, based on what I read in various newspapers and on input from several friends who do live and work in SA. Would engaging Mbeki work? Well, engagement is a two-way thing, and there’s no evidence he has any interest in discussing anything relating to HIV/AIDS nowadays. He’s received a great deal of input on HIV/AIDS over the years from AIDS professionals within and outside SA, and from other governments, but his mind is as closed as the denialists’ who post here. Mbeki’s interests nowadays are in anything that will enable him to cling to power after his Presidential term expires, at which time the Constitution requires him to stand down. He therefore seeks to become the power behind the throne, to control his successor, and maintain his position as ANC leader. That’s all that matters to him right now, because he’s a politician, and politicians need power the way normal humans need oxygen. He supports Manto because Manto, and her husband, support him, whereas Madlala-Routledge and her husband are political rivals within the ANC. I suspect that, irrespective of his and their views on HIV/AIDS, he would have found a way, any way, to remove his opponents from power, and support his supporters – that kind of behavior is endemic to politicans worldwide, paricular when power struggles are going on. For all these reasons, I doubt that Mbeki has the slightest interest in any further discussions about HIV/AIDS with anyone. For one thing, he could never afford to now change his position, whatever the facts, as to do so would be a sign of weakness at a time when he needs to appear strong and resolute (to his supporters). The loss of face involved in a volte-face would cripple him within the ANC.

    Unfortunately, as has been noted on this string, one of his possible successors, Zuma, is a deeply-flawed man who would also be a problematic leader of SA. The only reason to support Zuma is because he’s not Mbeki, and that’s never a good reason.

    Quite how all this will shake out over the coming months is impossible for anyone to predict. Once the politics of succession are in play, anything and everything could happen. All that outside observers can do is watch with crossed fingers, hoping that SA eventually finds a political leader that can help the country and not harm it. The best hope is that Nelson Mandela finds a way, behind the scenes, to ensure that his political legacy is not destroyed and that the new nation he built does not descend into anarchy, or become a second Zimbabwe.

    So, no, I don’t see any way for anyone to have a meaningful dialog with the Mbeki regime, although I’m sure that some people in SA are still trying to do that.

  170. #170 Adele
    November 9, 2007

    Ya know pat for a guy you said stopped being a scientist long ago JP Moores doing some damn fine science this month!!

    Shan M, Klasse PJ, Banerjee K, Dey AK, Iyer SP, Dionisio R, Charles D, Campbell-Gardener L, Olson WC, Sanders RW, Moore JP.
    HIV-1 gp120 Mannoses Induce Immunosuppressive Responses from Dendritic Cells.
    PLoS Pathog. 2007 Nov 2;3(11):e169 [Epub ahead of print]

  171. #171 jspreen
    November 9, 2007

    We archive comments such as Geiger’s and Spreen’s, to demonstrate to journalists and neutrals just what type of people we are dealing with.

    You’re very welcome, Mr Moore. I don’t know how Michael takes this, but I am very happy to know that my comments are passed on to the masses. A day will come when all the insanities I have written here and elsewhere will finally be recognized by mankind for what they are, and I sincerely hope that you’ll be around long enough to live that day, a day which will also be the day Dr Ryke Geerd Hamer obtains the Nobel Prize for medicine.
    All diseases come by the pair, my friends. Lung cancer is followed by lung-TB (that is if koch bacilli are present and if the patient has solved the biological “Fear of death” conflict), leukemia is without exception preceded by bone cancer (osteo-porosis).

    I see Tara has posted an entry about TB. All nonsense, Tara. Just as wheels are not the cause of speed, germs don’t cause TB. They’re simply part a an overall process you have not recognized at all yet. And that is why you have to bother about so many exceptions and are forced to try to pass a critical examination of your hypotheses with silly phrases like … Though most infections are asymptomatic,…
    Bloody nonsense, Tara, comparable to the long-term non-progressor concept designed to get away with HIV+ people who stubbornly stay alive while refusing the life saving killer drugs.

  172. #172 Braganza
    November 9, 2007

    Bdkeller,

    I thank you for you answer, and I hope that JPMoore and his friends at AIDSTRUTH could learn that there is no solution of the problems of HIV/AIDS in the region without constructive engagement with the RSA government.
    ———————————————————–

    There are many anecdotes of babies or adults living/or dying after receiving HAART in Africa. Question should be seen in the context of large cohort studies. I suggest to read the following meta study which show that even with HAART, DEATH is still a major risk of HIV+ patients in Subsaharian Africa !:

    “ART programs in Africa have retained about 60% of their patients at the end of 2 y. Loss to follow-up is the major cause of attrition, followed by DEATH.”

    Fom Sydney Rosen, Matthew P. Fox, Christopher J. Gill “Patient Retention in Antiretroviral Therapy Programs in Sub-Saharan Africa: A Systematic Review”, PLoS Medicine, Oct 2007, available online at:

    http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pmed.0040298

    In addition with the need of prevention, and providing affordable treatment to everybody, the problem of toxicity of the drugs, which is also acute in Africa, is one of the variable that need to be seen in detail to solve HIV/AIDS in the region.

  173. #173 Kevin
    November 9, 2007

    “You have actually found something you can predict! congratulations!”

    Posted by: pat | November 6, 2007 9:36 PM

    ____________________________________________________________

    Adele and all the other real denialists on this blog are exceedingly astute with their predictions. How could you have missed that, Pat? All one has to do is look at the post history here at Aetiology to discern just how accurate and honest these bozos are, right?

    For example, several months ago I attempted to have an intelligent discussion here at the Aetiology blog regarding the dire effects that the culture of corruption in the housing market would have on the US economy, even comparing that culture to the obvious culture of corruption that now defines most all scientific research that deals with human health. Of course, none of the hacks here were capable of discussing such a matter intelligently, but they were certainly quick to call me “paranoid” and/or a “conspiracy theorist”:

    Kevin your paranoia is still expanding isn’t it? Like a bubble I think. Here’s a hint though to make your rants more believable. A “Ponzi scheme” is not the same thing as a bubble. The current housing market has been at a stand still for a few years slightly higher in some markets lower in others. If it crashes like if everyone loses half their value then we had a bubble. If it doesn’t its not even a bubble. And no way is it a Ponzi scheme even if it’s a bubble which is doubtful.

    Kevin you’ve convinced everyone here you don’t know anything about HIV and you’re not interested in learning anything about it. Now your busy convincing us you’re a ignorant in other areas. If you make some better analogies though maybe you could get someone to take you seriously. Maybe but I doubt it. Good luck!

    Good thing, I had Adele to set me straight on how I’m “ignorant in other areas”. How’s the housing market doing, Adele? Am I still a paranoid denialist? My predictions about the housing market and its effect on the US economy were way off, right guys?

    Of course, Adele is one the dumber members of the pathetic collection of regular posters here, but the claims are always the same no matter which real denialist is making them. Rather than dealing with the facts, name-calling takes precedence over actual intelligent discussion. Instead, we, “denialists”, are all “paranoid” and “ignorant” and incapable of making sense of anything about the real world– all because we refuse to accept the HIV dogma that is masquerading as Science. Bullshit.

    Before I return to the real “real” world, I’d like to make another book recommendation, in the off-chance that there actually are a few participants and/or readers here who are interested and concerned with the unfortunate direction that our country is taking. While I certainly still highly recommend “Overdosed America: The Broken Promise of American Medicine”–particularly to those who remain incredulous as to how a “mistake” the caliber of HIV/AIDS could occur–I also highly recommend a more recent release that deals with America’s current problems with corruption. It is entitled “Are We Rome: The Fall of an Empire and the Fate of America”. While the title is a bit cliche, the book’s content is quite insightful. On point, the author notes that one of the most important similarities between Ancient Rome (the Empire, not the Republic) and the US is the rapid privatization of public institutions and how that precipitated the rapid decline of democratic institutions within the empire. America is headed to a similar end if our citizens continue to sell our collective interests to the highest bidder. For those of you working within biomedicine, if you open your eyes and assess the matter objectively, you cannot help but to see that pharmaceutical companies have way too much control over the direction of public health, and that the privatization of human health concerns have not been good for society, nor for Science. No matter how “advanced” our technology becomes, the impartial and objective use of that technology will remain a mirage, unless the extensive privatization of research is curtailed.

    Lastly, here’s a look at my own attempt at making predictions copied verbatim from my posts earlier this summer. Unfortunately (for our country), unless you’ve all been living in a cave (Adele?) I think you’ll find that it’s hard to disagree with its accuracy; however, if someone here wants to disagree, I’d be happy to engage you as long as you leave the name-calling to hacks like Adele and Chris Noble…anyway, here was my prediction:

    With that in mind, in an earlier thread, Adele, among others, accused me of being a wackjob for comparing the corruption responsible for the presently unwinding real estate bubble to the corruption responsible for the poor-quality health care available in the US. However, I have come to realize that Adele has plenty of company for most on this blog are far too meek to acknowledge any such similarities, even though they are easily identified. Like HIV, the recent “ponzi scheme” culture within real estate was a devastating mistake, primarily due to scale. Like HIV, it was all based on an illusion that the fundamentals no longer applied. Coming to terms with the truth will be very painful. This housing correction will jeopardize the stability of the entire global economy and the US economy will not be spared. In fact, we will suffer the most as the middle class has been virtually annihilated by the creation of this perverted “ownership society.” As the foreclosures mount, people will go from being homeowners to indentured servants, which perhaps will serve as a final wakeup call to all you with your heads in the sand (hello, Harold). However, I fear that it is too little too late to lessen the blow. Is it any wonder that our country’s future is indeed bleak when so many are so willing to accept lies as truth and profiteering as “science”. We are heading for a very deep bottom if we continue to ignore the importance of accountability in this age of unparalleled greed.

    Kevin

  174. #174 Noreen
    November 9, 2007

    This is why the study going on in Africa is so important because LDN is not toxic and certainly is not expensive. This could solve many of their problems due to the effect upon the immune system, thus eliminating the need for antiretrovirals.

  175. #175 John Moore
    November 9, 2007

    Braganza, I don’t disagree with you when you say: “there is no solution of the problems of HIV/AIDS in the region without constructive engagement with the RSA government”.

    What I said was: “So, no, I don’t see any way for anyone to have a meaningful dialog with the Mbeki regime, although I’m sure that some people in SA are still trying to do that.”

    That statement is not inconsistent with yours; it simply expresses the difficulties in making what you want to happen actually happen. Dialog is, by definition, a two-way interchange. If you know of a way to persuade Mbeki to engage in a genuine dialog with AIDS professionals when his mind is focused on ensuring he clings to power after his Presidential term expires, then it would be good for you to act on your knowledge and make it happen.

  176. #176 Braganza
    November 9, 2007

    John,

    I just have read your answer seconds ago (after writing my previous post) so thank you for your explanation.

    I should say I dont have understood you before.

    I still think that, if at the present moment you dont have channel to speak with Mbeki, you may have discussions with others people at others levels, and gradually have Mbeki support (he is, after all, endorsing the HIV/AIDS programme of his government) or the support of the future RSA president, whoever he is.

    I also personally hope that Mandela may have a say in all this question, for the future of the region.

  177. #177 John Moore
    November 9, 2007

    Thanks, Adele, for your citation of our latest paper. I hope you found it of interest. If the trolls read it, I expect that will lead to the same kind of laughably inept deconstruction of its contents that happened when Anthony Liversidge attempted to interpret the meaning of one of my earlier papers on his Blog. All that proved to me was that the denialists were even more ignorant of the meaning of peer-reviewed science than I had ever suspected (in other words, I had been giving them way too much credit). Scientific ignorance underpins AIDS denialism, and is exemplified by the quality of the denialists’ postings on this site. It’s no wonder they ask the same questions over and over again, and then ignore the answers they don’t like – the reason is that they don’t understand the science, never have and never will. One might as well answer them in Swahili…….

  178. #178 John Moore
    November 9, 2007

    Braganza, if you know of a way to bring Mbeki to a serious discussion with serious people, I’m sure serious people would talk to him. Personally, I know of no way to accomplish this. But then I don’t live in South Africa, and really, that’s a task for those who do, or who have high level contacts there.
    John

  179. #179 pat
    November 9, 2007

    Adele,
    Talking to you is like getting involved in a cat fight during recess. I put that one there just for you.

    “Oh and SO SHAWCKING Mbeki doesn’t think his minister got special treatment!! Will you tell us next Bush thinks there’s WMDs in Iraq, I guess it must be true then!!”

    Relax. Read some editorials in SA, one of which I linked to. If you are going to make such sweaping allegations, please don’t be offended if someone might want to know more about it than you before building a guillotine. The problem with this is that there is no evidence for her jumping cue an thus this can only be slung around as heresay for political gain. Also, I am not denying her drinking, it is just that some seem to be under the impression it is the problem of a deranged person when in reality the alcohol problem affects people across the spectrum in SA. Do you think her drinking is the reason for her controvertial stances on HIV/AIDS? If you are going to drag someone’s private life into the limelight you better be able to make a connection with her professional performance otherwise you are nothing but a heckler throwing rotten vegetables from the cheapest seats in the house. Also you must take into consideration that the privacy of her medical records that are protected by law were violated and that someone is walking around SA going unpunished for it. So if you want to make illegal and unethical behavior stick…it better stick!

    Besides, your commander in Chief said, “using whatever tactics are legally and ethically permissible.”

    Was stealing her medical files legal? was spilling it out in public ethical?

    “Ya know pat for a guy you said stopped being a scientist long ago JP Moores doing some damn fine science this month!!”

    He should stick to what he knows best. He’s sure no fucking diplomat.

    Moore:

    “So, no, I don’t see any way for anyone to have a meaningful dialog with the Mbeki regime, although I’m sure that some people in SA are still trying to do that.”

    As I implied. Some never give up the good fight while the rest go home and sulk and behave like general pests and spoilers. Yes, he is a politician and you dive into it like a bloody beginner; alot like Bush. He also likes to declare “war” on problems. Maybe we should be thankful that you don’t command actual weapons. People like you don’t help. People like you are polarizers, not rainmakers.

    “AIDS science is indeed in a war with the AIDS denialists, and the denialist leadership is indeed being targeted, not by violence or by threats of violence, but by legal and moral methods intended to destroy their ability to influence vulnerable people who have been persuaded to make choices that damage their health and the health of others. It will take time to defeat all the denialist leadership, but it’s being done (as some of them have already found out) and, in the end, science and morality will crush pseudoscience and evil.”

    – the rantings of a deluded soul.

  180. #180 pat
    November 9, 2007

    “Personally, I know of no way to accomplish this. But then I don’t live in South Africa, and really, that’s a task for those who do, or who have high level contacts there.
    John”

    I know of one way to begin. Perhaps you can simply be quiet and do your research and stop spoiling the work of those who are still trying to build dialogue. Sound ok with you?

  181. #181 jen_m
    November 9, 2007

    I am not sure who it was who came up with this objection, but someone was saying there were no elecron micrographs of HIV in human blood, I think? A Google Images search of “HIV electron micrograph” got me hundreds of images, most of which were HIV on the surface of blood cells or budding from T-cells.

  182. #182 pat
    November 9, 2007

    I am actually spoiling Braganza’s fine work.

    motus et bouche cousue. ;) A.

  183. #183 cooler
    November 9, 2007

    “The meeting was led by Dr. Joel B. Baseman, a mycoplasma expert at the University of Texas Health Sciences Center at San Antonio. He said the participants were ”very impressed with the quality of science that Dr. Lo’s group displayed.”

    ”The pathology data was solid and convinced us that the agent is in the tissues,” Dr. Baseman said. The ability of M. incognitus to cause a fatal wasting disease in monkeys and mice persuaded most participants that the microbe ”has the potential to cause disease in humans,”
    Dr. joel Baseman new york times 1990

    Thanks Aids establishment hacks for letting this microbe spread through the population, ruining my life, good work Tara and john, keep it up. Funny how hiv , hpv etc does zilch in animals, Kochs postulates turned upside down.

    Read project day lily to find out how mycoplasma was part of the bioweapons program. True story slightly fictionilized, rave reviews from several scientists including a nobel laurete. What a nightmare, hiv might be harmless and this mycoplasma incognitus/penetrans is the only microbe to worry about………….

    http://www.projectdaylily.com/

  184. #184 Noreen
    November 9, 2007

    Braganza, I’m following your dialogue with John Moore but I’m not very familiar with AIDS in South Africa only to state that as a young child in the sixties, we all watched sick, thin and dying children from Africa on our tv sets. My question for you would be has anything really changed?

    Several years ago I was diagnosed with AIDS, took the meds and had some side effects so I stopped them and found a better immune medicine. Since stopping the antiretrovirals, my viral load is high and CD4’s are low eighties yet I haven’t any AIDS defining diseases or opportunistic infections. I’m over 50, have a normal sex life and my husband is extremely healthy. MY VA doctors try to push drugs to me based on their test results but seem to be perplexed that I am doing so well. Clearly my symptoms are a much better indicator of my overall health then these test results. What do you think is going on?

  185. #185 cooler
    November 9, 2007

    1) Are these from patients or from lab cultures? 2) Is there a study where a patient with a very high plasma viral load gets his/her blood looked under an electron microscope and you can actually see/corroborate the millions of viremia in the plasma? I really dont know and would like to see that experiment done to confirm this.

    Or is duesberg correct when he says the viral load is created on a labratory bench?

  186. #186 Noreen
    November 9, 2007

    Cooler, I too would like to know the answer to this. At my next appointment, I’m going to request that HIV be cultured and see how far I get with this request. It certainly would go farther to present their case than viral load tests. If HIV is in my body, then I would like to see it. Medical tests can be flawed. I have been told three different times that I have antibodies to Hep and at the last testing last month, the tests showed no antibodies to Hep B or Hep C. With unreliable tests, what is the patient to believe?

  187. #187 Adele
    November 9, 2007

    Pat arguing with you is like cleaning up mercury with your fingers. It doesn’t work and it makes you stupid.

    You say Moore isn’t a scientist. I show you his latest paper. Then you say science is what he does best. Sheesh.

  188. #188 pat
    November 9, 2007

    “You say Moore isn’t a scientist. I show you his latest paper. Then you say science is what he does best. Sheesh.”

    Everything flies above your head. Is it because you are sitting down? He has to decide what he wants and he admits himself that he doesn’t know what to do with Mbeki so he shouldn’t try because he is no fucking diplomat. He is a trained scientist and so should do what he “does best”. Got that? This “war on denial” is all in his head. He even imagines camps and “the” leadership. He needs chill pills.

  189. #189 Adele
    November 9, 2007

    Noreen
    as a young child in the sixties, we all watched sick, thin and dying children from Africa on our tv sets. My question for you would be has anything really changed?

    As a young child in the seventies I saw pictures of people killed in Vietnam. In drivers ed we saw pictures of people killed in car accidents. The bodies looked the same. So vietnam war never happened there was just alot of car crashes?

  190. #190 jen_m
    November 9, 2007

    Noreen, I think you probably won’t get very far asking your providers to furnish electromicrographs of HIV in your blood, just because most care settings aren’t equipped to send samples for EM (that is particularly true of VA, which is pretty restricted in terms of testing.) But it can’t hurt to ask, and probably you are overdue to have a conversation with your health care providers about how the tests they use actually work, and what the drawbacks and advantages are. (My experience with VA healthcare suggests that providers are pretty rushed, especially in the clinics. But stand on your rights as a patient, and make them take the time you need.)

    Cooler and Noreen: no, to the best of my knowledge there isn’t a side-by-side comparison of viral load to electron micrograph (EM) visualization of HIV particles. That’s probably because EM isn’t the standard to determine the presence of HIV.

    I’m no expert in nucleic acid amplification testing (a family of tests including HIV-1 viral load tests) but my understanding is that the calibration of the test is based on titrated samples of HIV DNA (and negative controls containing test reagents without HIV DNA). So there’s a direct comparison between a known quantity of viral DNA and the sample extracted from the patient’s blood.

  191. #191 John Moore
    November 9, 2007

    Adele, I wouldn’t bother trying to hold any form of interchange with “pat”. He or she is a fool who isn’t even able to read what another poster writes without misunderstanding the words and drawing wild and inaccurate conclusions. The only difference between pat and the other trolls on this site (cooler, michael, jspreen) is that Pat can type and spell with at least moderate competence; otherwise the mindset is the same. Your mercury allusion is rather good.

    John

  192. #192 cooler
    November 9, 2007

    Whatever john, you cant even spell correctly, you make fun of other scientists while they die of cancer, and you deny people informed consent when it comes to their health. You can’t defend a single one of your zany views publicly, I mean look at what a fool Ive made of you guys, there isnt one EM picture from a patient’s plasma confirming these high viral loads.

    Funny how Dr. Joel Baseman was so impressed with shyh ching Lo’s work, and his ability for mycoplasma incognitus to produce a fatal wasting disease in mice and monkeys, he reccomended further funding, and your hiv hack pals like Fauci sabotoged it and almost killed me and many others. Hiv, hpv etc does zilch in animals

    “The meeting was led by Dr. Joel B. Baseman, a mycoplasma expert at the University of Texas Health Sciences Center at San Antonio. He said the participants were ”very impressed with the quality of science that Dr. Lo’s group displayed.”

    ”The pathology data was solid and convinced us that the agent is in the tissues,” Dr. Baseman said. The ability of M. incognitus to cause a fatal wasting disease in monkeys and mice persuaded most participants that the microbe ”has the potential to cause disease in humans, New York Times 1990

    Project day lily google it. True story slightly fictionilized, written by 2 of the top cancer reserachers, Garth and Nancy Nicolson phds rave reviews from several scientists, including a nobel laurete. Part of the bioweapons program, thats why a military scientist Lo knew so much about it.

  193. #193 John Moore
    November 9, 2007

    The latest edition of the International AIDS Society Newsletter contains a feature article entitled “AIDS in South Africa”, as well as a short review of Nicoli Nattrass’s book “Mortal Combat”. The Newsletter can be downloaded via:

    http://www.iasociety.org/Web/WebContent/File/Newsletters/2007_11_IAS_Newsletter.pdf

  194. #194 jspreen
    November 9, 2007

    Ya know pat for a guy you said stopped being a scientist long ago JP Moores doing some damn fine science this month!!

    Correction: somebody added Moore’s name to the list. Ye know, if a publication is not subscribed by at least 6 peer revewiers (read inbred critics), it is not science today. But if you ask for my opinion, I think that all J. Pee Moore has achieved this month is write silly messages on the web and declare war on people who still own something like a working brain. What kind of professor is that, anyway? A “Holy Inquisition” lackey, that’s what he is.

    You know, Copernicus was not opposed to by the clergy, as many people think, but by scientists. By the JPeeMoore kind of scientists. I know exactly how Copernicus must have felt: like I do myself when I read “professor” Moore’s contributions to health care.

  195. #195 Bennett
    November 9, 2007

    Noreen –

    You should be able to request HIV cultures in some form, such as phenotypic drug resistance testing for example. HIV culture is sometimes performed for difficult diagnoses (e.g. indeterminate WB results, neonatal infection etc).

    You are unlikely to find a center able or willing to culture and then do an HIV EM however, if you want to “see” the virus.

    The fact that you appear to have lost antibody responses to a virus is actually kinda worrying. It has been known for some time that loss of pre-existing antibody responses is a sign of end-stage AIDS, and your CD4 counts fit with that. It’s not the test that is unreliable, but rather your immune system…

    I would recommend seeing an HIV doc for therapy, or PCP prophylaxis at least, as well as for your concerns about culture.

    Good luck, all the best.

    Bennett

  196. #196 Noreen
    November 9, 2007

    Bennett, I must respectfully disagree with you as for almost 1 1/2 years my cd4’s have been low yet I do not have one disease that is commont to AIDS persons. In other words, if I were HIV- then the doctors would think that I”m in great shape. Think about this, we HIV+’s have antibodies to HIV, which according to classic medicine is a wonderful thing to have. Antibodies means the virus has long come and gone and is nowhere to be found as is my illusive Hepatitis antibodies.

  197. #197 Adele
    November 9, 2007

    antibodies to HIV, which according to classic medicine is a wonderful thing to have.

    You mean according to Peter Duesberg. Good news I guess my antibodies to Varicella mean I don’t ever get shingles?? Great!! Nothing to worry about!!

  198. #198 Bennett
    November 9, 2007

    Noreen,

    I only wish what you said about antibodies were true. Unfortunately, Duesberg stated it to be true many years ago (despite all the evidence to the contrary) and the myth has persisted since. Speaking as someone trained in “classic medicine” I can tell that that I was never told that antibodies were “wonderful things to have”, nor that they meant a pathogen had come and gone. I don’t know who told you that, but they were either mistaken or deliberately lying to you. I can’t put it any plainer than that.

    All antibodies have ever meant (and I’m not talking about IgM classes here, to clarify) is exposure to an antigen – be it a pathogen, an allergen or whatever. For pathogens that are acutely cleared (e.g. bacterial infections, the common cold) antibodies mean exposure and cure. For pathogens that are chronic (herpes, mono, HIV) antibodies mean life-long infection. It has always been the case, and Duesberg should have known better. I find it incredibly sad that people, such as yourself, are being told these things by Duesberg’s followers decades after the mistake was pointed out (and it was, in public) and should have been retracted.

    Low CD4 counts are a RISK for opportunistic infections, in the same way as if you roll dice there is a RISK of rolling snake-eyes. If you don’t get exposed to them, you’ll do fine, and if the average time to get sick from an OI even with low CD4 counts is around a year or two then of course there will be people who do it quicker and slower. You’re not unusual in that respect, and I hope you stay that way!!

    My concern would be that if you have recently got documented loss of antibody responses to one infection, it is likely that you may have undocumented loss of responses to other infections that you were exposed to (say, as a kid or through vaccinations). That means that should you get exposed to the pathogen, you are more likely to get sick. Of all the OI’s that can get you really sick, PCP is one that is relatively preventable with prophylaxis – which is why I would recommend talking to your doctor about it. HIV be damned, in any person with a vulnerable immune system (e.g. high-dose long-term steroids, anti-cancer therapy etc) PCP is worth trying to prevent. Your CD4 count is about 10% of the normal, which by any stretch of the imagination can’t be a good thing to be wandering around with (it would be similar to having a platelet count of 20 for example, or a hemoglobin of 1.4….)

    The question you have to ask yourself is “why are my CD4 T cell 10% of normal?” Either you were born that way (in which case you deserve to be written up as someone who has remarkably managed to survive with what looks like a crippled immune system, on paper) or it was acquired. An Acquired Immune Deficiency. Hmm.

    Anyhow, if I can’t convince you, that’s your choice. But I beg you to think about what I’ve said, and the fact that what you are describing is ENTIRELY consistent with “classic medicine” (whatever that may be ;-) and the understanding we have of HIV and AIDS. I don’t debate one-on-one with AIDS dissidents any more, but I am concerned about an individual person who appears to be at risk of getting sick, and is listening to AIDS denialism. That’s why I’m posting, for what its worth.

    Stay well

    Cheers

    Bennett

  199. #199 John Moore
    November 9, 2007

    Noreen, Your comment “Antibodies means the virus has long come and gone and is nowhere to be found” is simply untrue. The antibody response to HIV infection does very little to control HIV replication once the virus has become established in the body post transmission. Once infection is established, the virus is present in the immune system’s cells for the rest of your life. What the denialists have persuaded you to believe is simply nonsense, and its very, very dangerous to your survival. Your reference to “classic medicine” is disturbing. HIV causes persistent infection, and that differs from many (but not all) viruses that “classic medicine” is familiar with. The fact is that you have ongoing, high level HIV replication taking place in your body right now, and it is causing inexorable and progressive immune system destruction. Bennett is correct: the loss of your antibody responses to HCV and HBV is a very disturbing sign of how your immune system is being destroyed by HIV. You may well also be losing your immune responses to other pathogens, leaving you at increased risk of opportunistic infections (antibodies to some pathogens can prevent the establishment of new infections). You are healthy now, but it’s just a matter of time before the degradation of your immune system will cause you very, very serious health problems. The survival time for people with HIV infection and CD4 counts below 100 is limited; it varies from person to person, but you are in grave danger of death during the coming year.

    You need to get better health care advice than you have received in the past. I could probably arrange for you to be seen by top HIV specialists at a leading medical center (depending on where you live). Tara can put you in direct touch with me. I urge you to do that, as that phone call could literally save your life.

    I’m going to ignore every (and predictable) denialist response to this posting; this is about saving someone’s life, not about a Blog.

  200. #200 Adele
    November 9, 2007

    Noreen like pat says we fight like cats some times but I’m worried about you too and I hope you take dr. moore and dr. bennett’s advice. They know alot more about HIV then Peter Duesberg. We all want you to have a good long life not be a victim from a stupid virus they control with good treatments now.

  201. #201 noreen
    November 9, 2007

    Bennett and John, First I really wanted to hear from Braganza, who seemed like a voice of reason on this blog. I can’t stand how you people throw the word “denalist” around. Am I a denialist, just because my health is fine by quitting the antiretrovirals more than 21 months ago? I don’t think it’s written in stone that we should have one-size-fits all in medicine. Perhaps, the antiretrovirals work for some people, that’s fine. But they don’t work for me – other than causing pain, symptoms, abnormal lab work and discomfort.
    As for antibodies, I always thought that when measles, mumps, hepatits, etc. has come and gone, odds were that I would never have them again, only the antibodies. Also, low CD4’s seem to be meaningless. I would think that you would concede this point as myself and many others are living this truth. Again, regardless of test results, I am in good health. I’m not too keen on changing my routines. Maybe you would admit that there is something to LDN, a cheap drug , which is helping to modualte the immune system. My blood and liver enzymes are now normal and I am no longer anemic after stopping the AIDS drugs. How do you explain this?

    As for John’s offer to refer me to the top so-called AIDS specialist, you know I am more than willing to accept. I’ll talk to anyone about this. I’m pretty open-minded. But I would like an AIDS doctor to explain why my health is good inspite of all these terrible numbers. John says I’m in grave danger of death the coming year. But, they’ver been saying this for nearly a couple of years and I’m still fine. So is my husband. I still would like to hear Brazanza’s opinion.

  202. #202 cooler
    November 9, 2007

    I dont understand jp moores philosophy, he beleives people like Noreen and I are despicable scum for believing some of Duesberg’s arguments, were stupid, worthless, crazy, so why is extending so much compassion for someone who is in a group he has deemed worthless to society?

    Maybe if you didnt have such hatred for people who have different views than you, they would listen to you more, why would anybody listen to someone who calls you a “denialist” “loon” etc. Looks like JP moores name calling has come back to slap him in the face. If hiv does cause aids there is a much more civil way to express it, and don’t try and be someones savior when youve insulted the group their in repeatedly, even if you’re right, its not an effective way to convince others.

  203. #203 Noreen
    November 9, 2007

    Bennett, if you are a M.D. then I would encourage you to investigate LDN at the lowdosenaltrexone.org website or better yet talk with Dr. Gluck, Bihari or Zagon. You might even listen to those who take this wonder drug. You and others have the power to change lives for the better. I have found a better way to health, regardless of where you all stand on what causes AIDS.

    John, since I have had the following I don’t think that you can put any fear into my brain: cancer and its terrible treatments, hepatitis, bladder damage causing cystitis, allergic reactions, cellulitis(twice), welts, pinched nerves, herniated discs, GERD, osteoporosis, diarrhea, memory loss, night sweats, unsteady gait, cold sores, dizziness, weight loss, hair loss, Epstein Barr, abnormal grey matter in brain (PML or encephalitis),lymphadenopathy causing severe breathing problems, tachycardia, high chloesterol, two hypodensities in the liver, dilated bile duct, fatty deplaced liver, anemia, low platelets, mono, kidney stone, tinnitis, mercury and lead toxicity, pain issues and chronic fatigue.

    I have been prescribed over 25 drugs in a two year period. I have had a lifetime of conditions, which had caused my poor health. Finally, I received a proper diagnosis of what has been causing the majority of my problems, which is fibromyalgia not HIV. All things considered, either I am a walking miracle or the LDN has been my lifesaver.

  204. #204 Darin Brown
    November 9, 2007

    Apparently Tara closed the “Denialism they don’t remember” thread, so I must resort to putting a response to other posts here.

    Thank you Chris Noble for at least having the courtesy of responding to my lengthy post from a couple weeks ago.

    Chris Noble said:

    “As usual Drain [sic] Brown totally misunderstands the nature of the problem. It is encumbent upon the Denialists to demonstrate to the scientific community that any of their theories have any merit.”

    What a load of horseshit. YOU’RE the ones spending billions of dollars. YOU’RE the ones pumping people full of highly toxic ARVs. YOU’RE the ones instilling terror in people. YOU’RE the ones calling on people to be fired and hoping their careers be ruined. What a load of horseshit.

    I’ve been looking for ELEVEN years to find ANY justification for what you people are doing. I haven’t found an acceptable answer yet. Yes, it’s true I’ve been supplied with a few papers ON OCCASION such as Chris Noble did above, but none of these even come close to establishing causation. Apologists would say it’s because I “don’t understand the science” or “don’t understand the papers”. I say it’s because the papers don’t prove what you say they do. And I’m willing to put my reputation and career on the line to take it to the people to let them decide for themselves and let them take away power away from the establishment which is the only way this entire affair will ever end. This is a political problem, 100%, and political revolution is the only solution.

    “Denialists suffer from the delusion that the world revolves around them.”

    I don’t think the world revolves around ANYone.

    “There are plenty of cranks on the internet demanding that people prove Einstein’s relativity to them.”

    Which is entirely irrelevant to this.

    “Duesberg and Bialy have demonstrated that they will ignore any evidence presented to them.”

    What evidence?? For gods sake don’t say Ascher or Schecter or Darby. Really, Chris, you’re like a friggin broken record.

    In my estimation, apologists have demonstrated that THEY will ignore any evidence presented to THEM: Piatak, Padian, Rodriguez, and so on. Yes, I know there are “responses” to each of these (usually some form of childish taunting on AIDStruth or somewhere else, the equivalent of “nanny-nanny-nanny, YES SO YES SO YES SO, well I triple-dog-dare you, what about that??”), eventually it will be left both to those scientists who work outside HIV or aren’t emotionally attached to it, or finally to the general public to recognize how shitty and pathetic the orthodox responses to them have been. As I’ve pointed out before, the main reasons there is such a consensus at the moment are:

    1. Financial (money at stake)
    2. Cultural (science is as much a society/culture as anything else, you’re brought up into it)
    3. Political (pressure to conform, with severe consequences for those who don’t)
    4. Emotional/Social (doctors can’t give up HIV because it would diminish the priestly role over life and death they’ve acquired in the past several decades)
    5. Saving face (self-explanatory)

    There are cases in the literature where scientists and doctors literally HALLUCINATED evidence for disease causation. They were certain at the time that they were seeing “evidence” for such causation, but in time, it was shown their notions were completely wrong and their interpretations and observations entirely a product of their mental state and loss of touch with reality.

    As long as these forces are in place among those in power in science and medicine, HIV will continue to mesmerize the minds of medical scientists just as ecclesiastic and religious debates about angels on the head of a pin and requirements for salvation mesmerized the religious elite for centuries, and they will be powerless to see reality in front of their face.

    It will also continue to hold political sway. The HIV hypothesis is purely, 100% a POLITICAL problem, NOT a scientific problem. The evidence was non-existent 20-25 years ago, and it’s even less existent now.

    Since the HIV hypothesis is purely a political problem, POLITICAL INTERFERENCE is the ONLY solution to this problem. The people MUST take power away from those holding this PHENOMENON in place. This is why this issue MUST be taken to the PEOPLE. The people are not emotionally wed to the hypothesis, and they will recognize the enormous chasm between the hypothesis and reality sooner than anyone else.

    “I could go through and find some of these key papers, for instance Jay Levy’s isolation of ARV in 1984 that replicated Gallo’s and Montagniers work, Weiss’s demonstration that HIV binds to receptors on CD4+ cells. There are several other key papers published in this time period. These are what convinced the scientific community.”

    Let it be written for posterity that Chris Noble offered the following papers published between May 1984 and October 1986 as proof of the HIV hypothesis:

    1. Montagnier’s paper — a paper which even Montagnier at the time didn’t think proved anything re: causation

    2. Gallo’s 4 Science papers — where HIV could only be “isolated” in 26 of 72 “AIDS” patients, and in which HIV could only be “isolated” by stimulating cell cultures with IL-2 and PHA and detecting certain phenomena ASSUMED to be proof of the presence of a retrovirus, hardly proof of anything

    3. Levy’s “isolation” of ARV — again, HIV could only be “isolated” in 22 of 45 patients with AIDS, only marginally more “frequent” (!) than Gallo’s attempt

    These 3 papers are completely laughable in establishing causation. The best that can be said is that after taking cells from AIDS patients and subjecting them to enormous mitogenic stimulation, SOME of them began producing effects INTERPRETED by SOME as evidence of an infectious exogenous retrovirus.

    How on earth this proves ANYthing is beyond me. All it’s saying is [assuming “isolation” is really “isolation”], “Look! We ‘isolated’ HIV from a fraction of ‘AIDS’ patients! It must be the cause!!”

    What a friggin joke. If this is your idea of the foundation upon which to devote $2 US billion per annum and a massive educational campaign, you’ve got one more screw loose than I thought.

    4. Weiss demonstration that HIV binds to receptors on CD4 cells — despite the fact we now know that almost all “HIV particles” lack the gp120 spikes supposedly necessary to “bind” to CD4 cells, rendering them essentially non-infectious and therefore pathogenically irrelevant

    Nice try, Chris. But I have to at least give you enormous credit for offering a response at all.

    “Dairn [sic] also ignores several papers such as those by Ascher et al, Schechter et al and Darby et al that have specifically dealt with and refuted Duesberg’s claims.”

    Oh, give me a break. Duesberg’s responses to all 3 of these are out there for anyone to read on the internet and make up their own mind. Schechter, if I recall, wouldn’t even share his god-damn data, rendering the entire study completely worthless on that point alone.

    Even if one grants the studies prove what they say (and I’m not granting that), all 3 of these are purely epidemiological studies. All they prove is a correlation at best. Alone, they don’t prove the HIV hypothesis at all. I’m almost embarrassed explaining this to you.

    It all comes down to what I wrote almost 2 years ago in the magnificent pipedream (a document that is still extremely instructive and would be to relative newcomers to this blog, simply go to Harvey’s page and scroll down to “a magnificent pipedream” under “insurgency blogging”):

    “The epidemiology is supposedly used to justify the biological ‘quest’ for how HIV kills T cells or causes ‘AIDS’, yet at the same time, the epidemiology REQUIRES some kind of biological justification to move itself from beyond the realm of epidemiological surveillance tool and into the realm of gestalt diagnosis. The biology is supposed to justify the epidemiology, yet at the same time, the epidemiology is supposed to justify the biology. Another example of the ubiquitous circular logic of ‘AIDS science’. Caveat emptor.”

    All of your “epidemiological” (I put that word in parentheses given in my own experience — granted, primarily with HIV/AIDS — that its illogical practices strain the label of “scientific discipline” to its limits) “evidence” is based on WHAT?? HIV ANTIBODY TESTS?? And what are the antibody tests based upon? Proof that the HIV tests are sensitive and specific for HIV. Which is itself based upon some clear knowledge of what the hell “HIV” is in the first place. If your BIOLOGICAL understanding of the nature of “HIV” is all screwed up, then all the epidemiological evidence in the world is just being misinterpreted at best or contrived at worst. It all comes down to what I was taught as a mathematician — YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND YOUR BASIC DEFINITIONS AND NOTIONS FIRST or else all the rest of your thinking will be completely nonsensical.

    Likewise, the biological “evidence” in these early papers is entirely based on the notion that HIV is sexually transmitted and that “AIDS” is a coherent infectious disease. Who in their right MIND — without ALREADY accepting the notion that HIV and AIDS are both infectious and sexually transmitted would for a second consider Montagnier, Gallo, and Levy’s papers as proof of JACK SQUAT???

    “If science worked the way that Denialists pretend then we would still be trying to convince phogiston proponents that oxygen exists.”

    What a load of crap. The problem is not that science “works a certain way”, it’s that scientists are human like everyone else, and once the scientific process gets off on false branch of reasoning (which it inevitably will at times), the process of science itself will force science down that false branch of reasoning unless some external force is applied to make it conform more to reality. The process of hypothesis generation, experimentation, observation, and modification only works if all agents are allowed to pursue all avenues of investigation. When one narrow branch is pursued and all others completely cut off, IF that branch happens to be wrong, then the scientific process will continue working away and away, generating ad hoc hypotheses and further explanations and more and more branches in all and every conceivable direction will shoot off, desperately trying to “find” the branch of reality that has been cut off. As Feyerabend said, “VARIETY OF OPINION IS NECESSARY FOR OBJECTIVE KNOWLEDGE.” And the variety of opinion was certainly cut off prematurely in 1984-86, and the result has been predictable.

    Trrll offered the following in response to my question (again, such response is appreciated):

    “It is likely that much of the work that convinced people in the field was not actually published by that time. What typically occurs when a hot result is published is that labs all over the world jump on it and start trying to replicate it and extend it. After a year and a half, little of that work will have been published, but scientists in the field will be talking to one another about it, and will have a good idea of whether other labs are able to confirm it. So all of the people actually working in the field will know if the ‘buzz’ is favorable or unfavorable, and this is one point at which a new theory can collapse. So it is hardly surprising that after 17 months there was general agreement among virologists that the evidence for the virus was strong enough to support a major effort. Then there is a second phase in which those results are published, and begin to convince clinicians and scientists who are working on other aspects of the disease. [Followed by a link to the ever-popular NIAID/NIH “factsheet”]”

    and later

    “By ‘buzz,’ I am referring to the less formal communications between scientists that precede formal publication. Scientists in a field generally have a good idea whether a research direction is proving fruitful before the papers come out. Considering the potential importance of the discovery, everybody jumped on it, trying to reproduce and extend the results. This often happens in science when there is a possible breathrough. If the follow-up studies fail, then everybody drops that direction en masse, and the blip in funding dies out quickly. It is not a matter of faith — it is a matter of following up a potentially important result to find out whether it is valid or a blind alley as quickly as possible. And as we know, the follow-up studies supported the initial findings, and the rest is history.”

    and from another post:

    “There are many points at which the HIV hypothesis could have faltered based on subsequent work: if Duesberg’s original claims that HIV was not present in many AIDS patients had been confirmed once sensitive PCR tests had become available, if people had been found to mount an effective immune response to HIV as Duesberg claimed, if anti-HIV drugs had not been found to postpone the onset of AIDS in clinical trials and in the practical experience of AIDS doctors, if a plausible mechanism for HIV infection of cells of the immune system had not been found, etc., etc.”

    This forms the ENTIRE extent (unless I’ve missed something, do point out) of Trrll’s “response” to my query for what convinced the IOM to devote $2 US billion per annum in the name of the HIV hypothesis.

    WHAT A LOAD OF ****ING HORSESHIT.

    REALLY, HOW CAN ANY OF YOU PEOPLE READ THIS ABSOLUTELY PATHETIC CRAP WITH A STRAIGHT FACE?? WHAT THE **** IS THE MATTER WITH YOU PEOPLE READING THIS BLOG?????????

    Meanwhile, “ElkMountain” (whoever he/she is) offers the following wonderfully insightful commentary on the nature of scientific process:

    “Think about the denialist fantasy of what really happened in the 1980s. What if it were true that two or three labs misled the entire world with nothing more than correlations? What if your IOM was premature with its statement? What if?… Answer: everyone involved in the scam would have been sliced to pieces, their careers ruined, mercilessly and within a few years, by hordes of skeptical scientists. And if there was a ‘gravy train’ in play, then doubly. With nothing more than correlation supporting HIV and AIDS, rival scientists would have found a more plausible explanation, double-time, and steered all the money into their own labs…. Instead, the hordes of skeptical scientists, to the disappointment of many of them, could only confirm the HIV link to AIDS again and again. Thousands of experiments later, there still is no alternative explanation for AIDS that holds up in the lab… If any rethinker reading this has a better explanation for AIDS, don’t keep it to yourself. Experiment, support, and publish, and you will become the most famous scientist of our time.”

    And then we have “Dr. Duke” from the complete outer edges of the universe, claiming Callen and Ashe never took recreational or pharmaceutical drugs (WTFF???) or that they claimed this themselves (WRONG on both counts, as anyone even REMOTELY familiar with ANYthing knows):

    “HIV-infected people such as Michael Callen and Arthur Ashe who lead very ‘clean’ and healthy lives, died of AIDS… My point was that…denialists simply ‘rethink’ the issue and declare that Michael Callen must have been lying about his healthy lifestyle”

    Then the Small Inquisitor proceeds to offer the following VIRTUOSIC double-talk and side-stepping that would make even Bill “it depends what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is” Clinton proud as a peacock:

    “That NY Press article was published BEFORE the LA Coroner’s report into the death of Ms Maggiore’s daughter became publicly available. That report proves that MS Maggiore is HIV-infected because it shows that her daughter died of AIDS, with p24 antigens detected in her brain tissues (I think it is safe to discount the incredibly unlikely possibility that the daughter acquired her HIV infection from any source other than her mother). Once the LA Coroner’s report became available, it therefore provided solid medical evidence on the HIV infection status of Ms Maggiore, evidence that outweighs Ms Maggiore’s own, and conflicting public statements on the issue.”

    And Chris again:

    “How can you ignore the natural history studies that show a much higher mortality in people that are infected with HIV?”

    as if Chris has never even HEARD of the perth group

    Really, I’m serious. I don’t know WHAT the **** is the problem with you people.

    The posts on this blog have gone beyond attempts at scientific discussions or even political rantings or even ill-mannered personal attacks, and have entered the realm of HISTORICAL DOCUMENTS for future generations to ponder over the absolutely stunningly pathetic statements made here.

    darin

  205. #205 Bennett
    November 9, 2007

    Hi Noreen,

    The word “denialist” is used to describe what used to be called AIDS dissidents – I personally use the terms interchangeably having been following this whole sad debacle for so long. The change I think came about because after a decade or more of trying to educate the dissidents, they continued to refuse to accept the science – they denied the evidence.

    I would make a great distinction between someone like yourself who is living with HIV seeking answers, and someone trying to GIVE you the wrong answers.

    I think your opinions of medicine are skewed – no-one I know in medicine thinks “one size fits all”, least of all in HIV. It is unfortunate that you’ve suffered from the meds without any apparent benefit. The overall evidence for groups of thousands of patients is that antiretroviral therapy prolongs life, prevents OI’s and death. Among that group some will do spectacularly well, some will do badly. At the outset it’s impossible to predict with certainty who will fall into what category – although you can make educated guesses based upon more data as you go. For example, after HAART was introduced evidence accumulated that starting meds too late (e.g. counts under 200) resulted in less recovery of the immune system (as measured by CD4 counts, antibody responses, killer T cell responses etc). However, evidence also accumulated that starting at higher counts (e.g. 500) didn’t result in much benefit either, as those people weren’t at a significantly increased risk of OI’s in the first place. This is why guidelines currently recommend starting somewhere around 350.

    Regarding antibodies – mumps and measles are the classic acute infections that have life-long immunity. RSV or rotavirus on the other hand are acute infections that don’t induce life-long immunity. Hepatitis A is an acute infection, but hepatitis B and C are chronic infections in some instances. Even that can change – 90% of neonatally infected kids with hep B become chronic, whereas the same is true of only 10% of adults. About 50% of hep C infections become chronic. In these situations other tests are required to check for ongoing infection (antigen testing, PCR etc). In infections like EBV (mono) the antibody pattern can be used to distinguish between acute, chronic and latent infection. None of this is new, or high tech, and all of it was known when Duesberg make his stupid statements. He had this pointed out to him and STILL continued to say the same things. Saying something that is untrue repeatedly doesn’t make it true, but it does convince and confuse a lot of people.

    CD4 counts are not meaningless because the evidence shows the increased risk (NOT CERTAINTY REMEMBER!) of getting sick. Here’s a good bit of evidence:

    http://www.retroconference.org/2001/posters/203.pdf

    Figure 4 shows the following: in the people they studied with counts over 350 there were 2 deaths per 100 person-years. In people with 50-100 CD4 T cells per ul there were 15 deaths per 100 person-years (so, out of 100 people 15 would die in a single year). With counts under 25 half of the group died each year. That still means that half survived, but it doesn’t mean that the counts were “meaningless” in those people, and in the same way your count isn’t meaningless in you – it means you’re at a much higher risk than I am. How you play those odds is up to you.

    Evidence from non-HIV related PCP also shows a relationship with low CD4 counts.

    http://www.chestjournal.org/cgi/content/abstract/118/3/712

    The abstract ends with “These data suggest that for immunosuppressed persons without HIV infection (especially in low or undefined PCP risk groups), CD4 + counts may be a useful clinical marker to identify specific individuals at particularly high clinical risk for PCP and may help to guide chemoprophylaxis.”

    This makes sense biologically. CD4 cells are the lynchpins of the immune system – they act as the go-between for antigen-presenting cells (that tell the immune system something is there) and antibody producing B cells and CD8 killer T cells. This is why in HIV infection there are dysfunctions seen in both B cell and killer T cell responses.

    A very interesting, but long, study is at:

    http://www.statepi.jhsph.edu/macs/dossier/MACS%20Dossier.pdf

    Page 59 is interesting. It shows the percentage of people who died over time from various timepoints – it clearly shows improved survival in the HAART era. This study, the Multicenter AIDS Cohort Study, has over a million blood samples from men and women enrolled prospectively from the 1980’s. Some were already HIV+, some became HIV+ over time. Some were of course untreated, some were partially treated, some got HAART. Contrary to EVERYTHING the dissidents argue, antiretroviral therapy is associated with a lower risk of death.

    This is why John and I are hoping you’ll get help, because of evidence like this. You tell your own story, but we’re telling the story of tens of thousands of similar people. If you’ve had serious issues with the meds, you need to talk options over with someone who can offer options that might alleviate these problems.

    I can’t speak on behalf of John, but from the interactions I’ve had with him he is terribly upset at the AIDS denialists, the core denialsts, who have promoted this BS and continue to do so. It’s hard to find a reason why some of these people are doing it without attributing either willful ignorance (i.e. they are choosing not to be educated) or some kind of weird agenda. I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt, but from my personal interactions with people like Duesberg and the Perth Group I find it difficult to comprehend why they ignore the evidence that contradicts them and misrepresent the evidence that is supposed to support their case. Cherry-picking and lying are the actions needed to support AIDS denialism. The antibody story is an example of both:

    e.g. “Mumps, measles etc all are cured with antibody production and I’m going to ignore the example of herpes, mono, hepatitis B etc[cherry picking], so all viruses are cured with antibody production [lying]” That is EXACTLY what Duesberg did, and no-one can argue it any other way. The same pattern is used through EVERY AIDS denialist argument. I have no idea why – I’m not in their heads. All I can do is point out the errors, the cherry-picking and the lying, and let the readers such as yourself make up your minds.

    I’m happy to answer any further questions – probably easier to go to email. njb35@cantab.net.

    Cheers

    Bennett

  206. #206 John Moore
    November 9, 2007

    Cooler, your assessment of what I think of you is the first accurate thing you have ever said on this Blog. However, your assessment of what I think of Noreen is as inaccurate and foolish as every other post that you ever made here.

  207. #207 John Moore
    November 9, 2007

    Noreen, my offer to try to find an HIV specialist physician for you to consult still stands. Tara knows my contact details and I have asked her to pass them to you upon request. I feel sure that if you ask him to, Bennett would also talk to you one on one.
    John

  208. #208 John Givens
    November 9, 2007

    A recent article in Science about HIV vaccines

    The failure of a promising AIDS vaccine in a large human trial, dubbed STEP, has stunned researchers and raised concerns about the broader T-cell vaccine concept and the future of AIDS vaccine research and development.

    It certainly didn’t “stun” me. The quest for a vaccine is a FAILURE.

    Do microbicides fare any better?

    Here’s an article from July this year

    Investigators remain puzzled about why a supposedly safe anti-HIV microbicidal gel turned out to increase the risk of HIV in women who used it.

    Using the microbicide increased, not decreased, the risk of HIV. The quest for a microbicide is a FAILURE.

    John Moore explains it nicely in Seed Magazine.

    You always have to plan for failure in the HIV game,” said John Moore, a professor of microbiology and immunology at Cornell University.

    Vaccines & Microbicides: Failure
    Wasting Tax-payer money: Success

  209. #209 cooler
    November 10, 2007

    Moore, I’m sorry you lack critical thinking skills and are too stupid to understand your own dogma. Noreen is a denialist, she has repeatedly doubted the hiv hypothesis, so by your definition she is worthless to society, as am I.
    Dont create desultory sanctimonious excuses to dig yourself out of your lies and double standards. (“All denialists are stupid and worthless, but when it suits me and makes me look good then they are not.”)

    Is everybody at Cornell as dumb as you are?

  210. #210 cooler
    November 10, 2007

    great post Darin, these people are mad. They tried to kill me and countless others by ignoring the military’s cheif infectious disease pathologist shyh ching lo’s md phd mycoplasma incognitus/penetrans.

    Every animal he inoculated it with died, and he found in no healthy controls. He found it to be the cause of death in 6 people that died of mysterious infections. I was sick for years without a diagnosis, and am on the mend. (refrences in lonliness causes aids thread)

    These people are enemies of informed consent and want people to to only hear views that are endorsed by drug companies or crooked politicians like Fauci.

  211. #211 John Givens
    November 10, 2007

    1987: New York Times — AIDS Vaccine: Relentless Questions

    EVEN as scientific understanding of the AIDS virus advances, researchers working to develop an AIDS vaccine continue to be plagued by severe practical and ethical dilemmas.

    1993: New York Times –Little Progress Seen in Effort to Crack AIDS Puzzle.

    “Our progress seems desperately slow,” Dr. Michael H. Merson, the director of the World Health Organization’s AIDS program, said at the close of the weeklong meeting.

    2007: New York Times – In Tests, AIDS Vaccine Seems to Increase Risk

    “The new analyses are both disappointing and puzzling” because they offer no explanation for the vaccine’s failure, said Dr. Anthony S. Fauci, the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, a partner in the vaccine trial.

    After Billions spent in research, we have more than 2 decades of utter failure. Anyone seeing a pattern?

  212. #212 Molecular Entry Claw
    November 10, 2007

    You are healthy now, but it’s just a matter of time before the degradation of your immune system will cause you very, very serious health problems. The survival time for people with HIV infection and CD4 counts below 100 is limited; it varies from person to person, but you are in grave danger of death during the coming year.

    Hey Johnny Wishbone Moore MD(?), was that a threat or just an expression of your pious hopes?

    I need to know because I have archived this statement along with your many other abuses of freedom of speech. Expect another letter to your university about these issues very soon.

    In the meantime, I suppose you consider yourself a ranking scientist, somebody who has a superior obligation not to disseminate misleading information regarding clinical conditions, so can you tell me the basis for your statement; did you consult Noreen’s medical records, viral load-HIV correlation, your Tarot deck? Tea leaves? macaque familiar?

    PS, I liked your “this war was thrust upon us”, and “we don’t negotiate with anybody except the terms of their surrender” speeches. Have you ever thought of becoming foreign policy advisor? Maybe speech writer for Dick Cheney? Your self-important rethoric and idolization of Churchill, dragging the poor dead man, rest his soul, into all kinds of ridiculous contexts to support your hyperbole, would fit right i with all the other neo-con chickenshits who always find a way of staying well behind the front lines.

    You are willing to fight in the hills, on the beaches and what not, eh brave Sir John? Whenever you have a minute to spare from all your hairy chest thumping, perhaps you could slot in a fight with Christine Maggiore in a geographical location of your choice – face to face for once?

    Dr. Bennet, who has just graced these pages, has also retired himself from the active duty of engaging dissidents personally he tells us. Actually it was Jeffrey Dach who retired Dr. Bennett after this public humiliation – cheers indeed:

    Which brings me [Jeffrey Dach] to the point of my descent, that began after I read the Sept 27 JAMA 2006 article by Rodriguez et al. showing essentially no correlation between CD4 cell count and HIV viral load – indicating that unchecked virus replication is not killing the CD4 cells. On the same day, I posted this information at the misc.health.aids newsgroup and quickly realized that I had entered the proverbial snake pit.
    My posted message was almost a direct quote from the JAMA authors: “The noncorrelation in the Figure 3 (click on the miniature to the left) scattergram on page 1504 is the finding which indicates that HIV plasma RNA level (HIV viral load) is not a reliable predictor of CD4 cell loss in HIV infection and challenges the concept that the magnitude of viral replication is the main determinant of the speed of CD4 cell loss at the individual level.”
    I promptly received a reply from a Nick Bennett, who turns out to be an MD /PhD from Cambridge (UK), currently a pediatric infectious disease resident trainee in NY, and a self appointed guardian of the HIV/AIDS hypothesis. He explained to me in a condescending and extremely arrogant manner that, “No, I am mistaken, the JAMA article actually confirms a correlation between CD4 cell count and HIV viral load. There is indeed a linear trend in Figure 3, because the R-squared Coefficient of Correlation is not zero.”
    This absurdity revealed the lie behind the credentials, as clearly the man knows nothing about linear regression analysis. The Figure 3 R-squared is actually 0.04, which for statistical purposes is just slightly above zero. R-squared values range from zero to 1.0, with 1.0 indicating a straight line and zero indicating a random pattern of dots very much like Figure 3.
    Bennett continued his post by questioning my training and background and ability to read and interpret the medical literature.
    “I find it astonishing that you somehow think yourself better qualified to analyse (sic) the results of a paper than the authors themselves or indeed anyone else with specialist qualifications in the relevant field. Where’s your research background in HIV (or even microbiology in general)? Why should I trust what you say versus what every microbiologist/epidemiologist/clinician and researcher I’ve ever met tells me about how to analyse (sic) a paper and judge and interpret the evidence? I would say you had no relevant experience upon which to base your views and are incapable of correctly interpreting scientific evidence in context!”
    I barely controlled myself in reply: “The JAMA, as you know, Dr. Bennett, is the Journal of the American Medical Association and is written specifically for the members of that organization. I have been a member of the American Medical Association and have been reading JAMA since 1976, which is probably before you were born. I was certainly reading it when you were still in knickers, my youthful but arrogant correspondent. I’ve had thirty years of experience reading and interpreting this journal. How many years have you had? “(I neglected to mention my own publication in 1983).
    Bennett must have gone back to read his math book, because he finally agreed an R squared of 0.04 indicates non-correlation, and excuses his ignorance of linear regression analysis by telling me in his PhD thesis research he used PCR and did Western blots. He nonetheless continues in the same self-important manner, and then, with his new found mastery of linear regression, calculates his own R-squared value, which does not appear anywhere in the paper, from the data in the paper’s Fig. 1 (click on the miniature to the right). This turns out to be a much more acceptable 0.9776. It is also in total error. If we assume Bennett’s PhD is not a completely fraudulent document, this is either an intentional deception designed to fool the few gullible who are persuaded that this man is some kind of authority, or yet another example of the Orwellian Doublethink characteristic of the AIDS church. Bennett’s Oct 6 blog posts his deceptive graph with the sham R-squared value of 0.9351.

    http://barnesworld.blogs.com/barnes_world/2006/10/by_jeffrey_dach.html

  213. #213 Molecular Entry Claw
    November 10, 2007

    I meant viral load-CD4 correlation, although I could just as well have asked for the viral load-HIV correlation.

  214. #214 Noreen
    November 10, 2007

    For a truthful read about HIV testing and it flaws, I would recommend the following site:

    http://breakfornews.com/aidsmyth/report/articles/051501mattirwinproblemshivantitest.htm

  215. #215 franklin
    November 10, 2007

    I have been told three different times that I have antibodies to Hep and at the last testing last month, the tests showed no antibodies to Hep B or Hep C.

    Think about this, we HIV+’s have antibodies to HIV, which according to classic medicine is a wonderful thing to have. Antibodies means the virus has long come and gone and is nowhere to be found as is my illusive Hepatitis antibodies.

    Noreen,

    When your physicians told you about the decline in your antibodies to Hepatitis B Virus and Hepatitis C Virus, did they indicate that the decline in your antibody response is a worrisome sign that most likely indicates that your immune function continues to progressively deteriorate, as Bennett and John Moore have suggested?

    Given that you believe antibodies to a virus are “wonderful things to have,” whay are you so pleased that your body has stopped making the protective antibodies to Hepatitis B Virus and Hepatitis C Virus?

    Did your physicians tell you that this decline in antibody titer was good news, or did they agree with the assessment of Bennett and Moore?

  216. #216 pat
    November 10, 2007

    Mr. Moore thinks it is appropriate to hand out medical advice when I doubt he even has a license to do so. I have studied your prediction of Noreens imminent death and wondered if actual doctors spoke like that so I asked around a bit. Apparently “real” doctors don’t do that. TV doctors, on the other hand…”real” doctors don’t think of themselves as prophets and they generally refrain from your kind of garbage because there is really no way of telling unless the patients are in very poor health or very good health in which case predictions are more like foregone conclusions. You have never met Noreen and by making an online diagnosis based on nothing but a few clues and predicting her death you are overstepping major ethical boundaries. Your attempts to diagnose death online should be reported.

  217. #217 jspreen
    November 10, 2007

    You are healthy now, but it’s just a matter of time before the degradation of your immune system will cause you very, very serious health problems.

    This is by far the most stupid, rediculous, self-sufficient, ugly, ….. sorry, I don’t have the vocabulary to write my feelings down accurately ….. and you should be chased out of your office forever. Shame on you, “professor” John P. Moore.

    I must admit, right now my anger is not really genuin. I’ve called you bad names in the past, John Moore, but I have the strange feeling right now that I was wrong. Maybe I should think of you as a very lost and lonely man who is simply ready to go to any length to find some human warmth somewhere. Anywhere.

    I love you, John…

    How does that feel, huh?

  218. #218 scienceteacherinexile
    November 10, 2007

    JMoore,
    Sorry, it is hard to have an exchange here in the troll garden, but I want to disagree with you on a point. Well not really disagree with you because it was not stated as your opinion, but the vote for Zuma is much more than not a vote for Mbeki.
    There are diehard supporters for Zuma here. I am still trying to figure that out because he is so obviously a horribly poor choice for the leader of this country.
    Anyway, he suffered a real blow two days ago when he lost an important appeal in his corruption trial which has been expanded to fraud and money laundering.
    The problem is that there is not a really good possibility within the ANC for president. That is why, as I stated earlier, that the ANC is seriously considering altering the constitution to allow Mbeki a third term.
    There are a few others I think would make decent leaders, but they are not in the ANC.

  219. #219 Bennett
    November 10, 2007

    Hi Noreen,

    The word “denialist” is used to describe what used to be called AIDS dissidents – I personally use the terms interchangeably having been following this whole sad debacle for so long. The change I think came about because after a decade or more of trying to educate the dissidents, they continued to refuse to accept the science – they denied the evidence.

    I would make a great distinction between someone like yourself who is living with HIV seeking answers, and someone trying to GIVE you the wrong answers.

    I think your opinions of medicine are skewed – no-one I know in medicine thinks “one size fits all”, least of all in HIV. It is unfortunate that you’ve suffered from the meds without any apparent benefit. The overall evidence for groups of thousands of patients is that antiretroviral therapy prolongs life, prevents OI’s and death. Among that group some will do spectacularly well, some will do badly. At the outset it’s impossible to predict with certainty who will fall into what category – although you can make educated guesses based upon more data as you go. For example, after HAART was introduced evidence accumulated that starting meds too late (e.g. counts under 200) resulted in less recovery of the immune system (as measured by CD4 counts, antibody responses, killer T cell responses etc). However, evidence also accumulated that starting at higher counts (e.g. 500) didn’t result in much benefit either, as those people weren’t at a significantly increased risk of OI’s in the first place. This is why guidelines currently recommend starting somewhere around 350.

    Regarding antibodies – mumps and measles are the classic acute infections that have life-long immunity. RSV or rotavirus on the other hand are acute infections that don’t induce life-long immunity. Hepatitis A is an acute infection, but hepatitis B and C are chronic infections in some instances. Even that can change – 90% of neonatally infected kids with hep B become chronic, whereas the same is true of only 10% of adults. About 50% of hep C infections become chronic. In these situations other tests are required to check for ongoing infection (antigen testing, PCR etc). In infections like EBV (mono) the antibody pattern can be used to distinguish between acute, chronic and latent infection. None of this is new, or high tech, and all of it was known when Duesberg make his stupid statements. He had this pointed out to him and STILL continued to say the same things. Saying something that is untrue repeatedly doesn’t make it true, but it does convince and confuse a lot of people.

    CD4 counts are not meaningless because the evidence shows the increased risk (NOT CERTAINTY REMEMBER!) of getting sick. Here’s a good bit of evidence:

    http://www.retroconference.org/2001/posters/203.pdf

    Figure 4 shows the following: in the people they studied with counts over 350 there were 2 deaths per 100 person-years. In people with 50-100 CD4 T cells per ul there were 15 deaths per 100 person-years (so, out of 100 people 15 would die in a single year). With counts under 25 half of the group died each year. That still means that half survived, but it doesn’t mean that the counts were “meaningless” in those people, and in the same way your count isn’t meaningless in you – it means you’re at a much higher risk than I am. How you play those odds is up to you.

    Evidence from non-HIV related PCP also shows a relationship with low CD4 counts.

    http://www.chestjournal.org/cgi/content/abstract/118/3/712

    The abstract ends with “These data suggest that for immunosuppressed persons without HIV infection (especially in low or undefined PCP risk groups), CD4 + counts may be a useful clinical marker to identify specific individuals at particularly high clinical risk for PCP and may help to guide chemoprophylaxis.”

    This makes sense biologically. CD4 cells are the lynchpins of the immune system – they act as the go-between for antigen-presenting cells (that tell the immune system something is there) and antibody producing B cells and CD8 killer T cells. This is why in HIV infection there are dysfunctions seen in both B cell and killer T cell responses.

    A very interesting, but long, study is at:

    http://www.statepi.jhsph.edu/macs/dossier/MACS%20Dossier.pdf

    Page 59 is interesting. It shows the percentage of people who died over time from various timepoints – it clearly shows improved survival in the HAART era. This study, the Multicenter AIDS Cohort Study, has over a million blood samples from men and women enrolled prospectively from the 1980’s. Some were already HIV+, some became HIV+ over time. Some were of course untreated, some were partially treated, some got HAART. Contrary to EVERYTHING the dissidents argue, antiretroviral therapy is associated with a lower risk of death.

    This is why John and I are hoping you’ll get help, because of evidence like this. You tell your own story, but we’re telling the story of tens of thousands of similar people. If you’ve had serious issues with the meds, you need to talk options over with someone who can offer options that might alleviate these problems.

    I can’t speak on behalf of John, but from the interactions I’ve had with him he is terribly upset at the AIDS denialists, the core denialsts, who have promoted this BS and continue to do so. It’s hard to find a reason why some of these people are doing it without attributing either willful ignorance (i.e. they are choosing not to be educated) or some kind of weird agenda. I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt, but from my personal interactions with people like Duesberg and the Perth Group I find it difficult to comprehend why they ignore the evidence that contradicts them and misrepresent the evidence that is supposed to support their case. Cherry-picking and lying are the actions needed to support AIDS denialism. The antibody story is an example of both:

    e.g. “Mumps, measles etc all are cured with antibody production and I’m going to ignore the example of herpes, mono, hepatitis B etc[cherry picking], so all viruses are cured with antibody production [lying]” That is EXACTLY what Duesberg did, and no-one can argue it any other way. The same pattern is used through EVERY AIDS denialist argument. I have no idea why – I’m not in their heads. All I can do is point out the errors, the cherry-picking and the lying, and let the readers such as yourself make up your minds.

    I’m happy to answer any further questions – probably easier to go to email. njb35@cantab.net.

    Cheers

    Bennett

  220. #220 scienceteacherinexile
    November 10, 2007

    wheatdog:
    Are you still here?
    You are the prognosticator from comment 2. But, you did not predict the magnitude…

  221. #221 cooler
    November 10, 2007

    http://www.aegis.com/pubs/atn/1990/ATN09501.html

    This is the microbe mycoplasma incognitus/penetrans that is slowly spreading through the population, any professional scientist that ignores this is guilty of torture and genocide. the only microbe that kills/sickens every animal inoculated, Google project day lily to find out how it was part of the bioweapons program

  222. #222 Noreen
    November 10, 2007

    I do not have an active case of hepatitis nor do I have antibodies, so let’s put that to rest. My only complaints have to do with fibromyalgia and not with any AIDS defining diseases. All of you naysayers to mine or to Harvey’s health, shame on you. Believe me, when I was at death’s door and managed to survive months without mainstream’s medicines, I am certainly fine now with a wonderful, immune-enhancing drug on my side, irregardless of not-so-important viral load and CD4 tests. The key here is good old-fashioned “symptoms” and the complete blood counts, nothing else!

  223. #223 franklin
    November 10, 2007

    So then why were you tested for antobodies to HBV and HCV last month?

    What did your physicians tell you about their interpretation of the decline in your antibodies to these viruses?

  224. #224 Noreen
    November 10, 2007

    I was tested because I was curious. This physician was not a VA doctor but he stated and I have the paper from the lab, which shows no antibodies to Hepatitis whatsoever. I questioned the doctor if one loses them and he stated no. He had no other explanation. Someone’s tests must be in error.

  225. #225 franklin
    November 10, 2007

    Well, as Bennett and Moore have stated, with advanced immune deficiency one can “lose” antibodies.

    As an immune deficiency gets more severe, one’s immune system can stop producing protective antibodies that it used to make.

    Think about it, Noreen.

    You pointed out that “classic medicine” says that antibodies to infectious agents are a wonderful thing to have. Your body used to make them and now it has stopped making them.

    I recommend that you take up Professor Moore’s offer to refer you to an AIDS specialist in your area. Ask about these issues and about having the virus cultured from your blood.

    At the very least, you can hear about the options available to you in terms of PCP prophylaxis and other possible therapies.

    Just make sure that the physician knows how strongly you feel about avoiding drug toxicities. Perhaps they can find a treatment regimen that will help restore your immune system without causing the toxic effects that you find unacceptable.

  226. #226 Noreen
    November 10, 2007

    First, if Bennett and Moore were right, then maybe I don’t have antibodies to HIV, wouldn’t that be great! I may have the VA retest for Hepatitis and then we will see whose tests are inaccurate. My immune system is fine. If HIV is harming me then explain why my blood counts and liver enzymes are now normal. I have an AIDS specialist who I see every three months. They know that LDN is helping me, I go for their sake, not mine. They need to see how someone does off of their antiretrovirals!

  227. #227 franklin
    November 10, 2007

    Noreen,

    The looks of amazement that you think you detect on your physicians faces may not indicate that they are amazed at “how well you are doing.”

    They may be amazed at how you keep ignoring their advice despite the evidence that your immune system continues to progressively worsen.

  228. #228 DT
    November 10, 2007

    I was tested because I was curious. This physician was not a VA doctor but he stated and I have the paper from the lab, which shows no antibodies to Hepatitis whatsoever. I questioned the doctor if one loses them and he stated no. He had no other explanation. Someone’s tests must be in error.

    The doctor was wrong – you can lose antibodies.
    Out of interest, which antibodies did he test for out of the following battery – HepA IgG, HepA IgM; HBsAg, HBsAb, HBsAb titres, HBcAb, HBcIgM, HBeAb, HBeAg, HCV Ab?
    You have the results so it would be instructive to know, as these may have different interpretations.

  229. #229 noreeen
    November 10, 2007

    Franklin, I think that I know my physicains much better than you do. We have been through a lot together and yes, at first, they were very concerned and just like many on this blog they tried to get me back on the meds. However, after almost two years of great lab reports and not one opportunistic infections, they do not pressure me into taking their drugs. They want me to contiune to see them, you must remember the choice is mine. Maybe the old sayings is wrong, maybe you can teach old dogs new tricks! Contrary to popular belief, we get along great!

  230. #230 franklin
    November 10, 2007

    So your physicians consider high viral loads, declining CD4 T-cell counts, and the loss of previous antibody responses to be “great lab reports?”

  231. #231 noreen
    November 10, 2007

    First you are mixing apples with oranges. Two different clinics were involved with the tests and the VA doctors do not know the results of the other clinic as yet. They consider normal CBC, no anemia and great liver enzymes to be fine. They do not in regards to the viral load or the CD4. However, they see me in the flesh, which is something that you folks do not and they see a non-symptomatic AIDS patient in regards to HIV.

    Like many here, as individuals, they are fine people but they believe everything about HIV without looking further into it. They think that the proof that HIV causes AIDS is “somewhere” in PubMeb yet they can’t give me the reference. Doctors are too busy treating patients to get into the politics, etc. of AIDS. Besides, they pretty much have to go by what the AMA, CDC says to do or they will have the wrath of these organizations upon them not to forget law suits. So until things officially change, I wouldn’t expect them to spout anything other than the official party line. Nevertheless, they are human and can see the results of LDN and good health habits for themseleves.

  232. #232 Chris Noble
    November 10, 2007

    Darin wrote:

    I’ve been looking for ELEVEN years to find ANY justification for what you people are doing. I haven’t found an acceptable answer yet. Yes, it’s true I’ve been supplied with a few papers ON OCCASION such as Chris Noble did above, but none of these even come close to establishing causation. Apologists would say it’s because I “don’t understand the science” or “don’t understand the papers”. I say it’s because the papers don’t prove what you say they do. And I’m willing to put my reputation and career on the line to take it to the people to let them decide for themselves and let them take away power away from the establishment which is the only way this entire affair will ever end. This is a political problem, 100%, and political revolution is the only solution.

    Darin, if you demonstrated that you understood what these papers show and what they don’t show then people would take you seriously. As it is you just appear to be yet another internet loon demanding that the scientists prove the germ theory of disease, Einsteins relativity or that Al-Quaida was really behind 911.

    The issue is only political in the same way that the evolution debate is political. Duesberg and the other assorted flavours of denial lost the scientific debate 20 years ago. The “debate” about HIV exists only in popular books directed to lay audiences and in the lysenkoism of Mbeki’s government.

    If you want a real example of political interference in science then you can’t go past Mbeki’s dismal record. He ignored his own scientists. He brought in crank scientists from the USA and Australia. He gave the crank scientists who told him what he wanted to hear undue credibility. He interfered with the runnings of the MRC. He sacked health officials that did not follow his lysenkoism. He supported illegal trials involving Virodene and Matthias Rath’s vitamins.

  233. #233 DT
    November 10, 2007

    Noreen, as much as I don’t wish to derail this thread from the topic of Mbeki’s denialism, I ask if you might tell us the results of your lab markers for hepatitis (both the current ones and the previous ones) so that someone experienced in the interpretation of these can do so for you, rather than relying on a doctor who says “you can’t lose antibodies”.

  234. #234 Chris Noble
    November 10, 2007

    And Darin I still haven’t received an explanation of why Duesberg and the Perth Group have after 20 years failed to convince one another as to whether HIV exists or doesn’t.

    The Perth Group state If one accepts that “HIV” and “HIV” antibodies exist, then one has no choice but to also accept that Koch’s postulates have been fulfilled which means that HIV is the cause of AIDS.. THis cannot be reconciled with Duesberg’s views.

    If, as you appear to claim, “dissidents” are guided by evidence and are willing to modify their opinions upon evidence then why haven’t they managed to convince each other?

    I don’t know about you but I think that both Duesberg and the Perth Group have committed so much of their lives and have sacrificed promising careers (at least for Duesberg) that they will never, ever admit to being wrong. No amount of evidence will ever convince them.

  235. #235 DT
    November 10, 2007

    @scienceteacher

    One of the candidates who is near the top of the pile for the ANC is Jacob Zuma. Zuma has a lot of support from some areas. This guy is a slimy, crook in my opinion but I digress. Last year, he went on trial for rape. /snip/
    But here is the kicker: He stated during the trial that he had consentual sex with the accuser, knowing that she was HIV positive (he knew very well), without a condom, and that after the sex he had a shower to cut down his risk of infection.

    He may yet get a nasty shock….
    New Ugandan research says that washing the penis after sex increases the risks of acquiring HIV, not lessens it.
    http://www.ias2007.org/pag/Abstracts.aspx?SID=55&AID=5536

  236. #236 noreeen
    November 10, 2007

    Alright DT but I will have to go through some records for your request as these tests have been ran several times. If you contact me, we can go through this off the blog. But I will add, that not all physicians are up to par. One doctor wanted to give me life-time steriods for fibromylagia, which is not a very good call for an AIDS person. Bottomline, it pays to stay on top of one’s medical tests and to do research for oneself and don’t believe everything that a doctor says because he or she has M.D. behind their name.

  237. #237 pat
    November 10, 2007

    “Noreen, as much as I don’t wish to derail this thread from the topic of Mbeki’s denialism, I ask if you might tell us the results of your lab markers for hepatitis (both the current ones and the previous ones) so that someone experienced in the interpretation of these can do so for you, rather than relying on a doctor who says “you can’t lose antibodies”.

    Ok, I MUST say this. Noreen, take your doctors advice and your own; not the advice of webjockeys. You’ll be fine.

  238. #238 pat
    November 10, 2007

    “He may yet get a nasty shock….
    New Ugandan research says that washing the penis after sex increases the risks of acquiring HIV, not lessens it.
    http://www.ias2007.org/pag/Abstracts.aspx?SID=55&AID=5536

    “Post-coital penile cleaning is common in this rural population”

    Eithher way you pull this wool; it’s a crock of SHIT.hahahahaha! I will stop washing.

  239. #239 apy
    November 10, 2007

    Ok, I MUST say this. Noreen, take your doctors advice and your own; not the advice of webjockeys. You’ll be fine.

    A webjockey giving advice saying not to take advice frpm webjockeys? A bit oxymoronic.

  240. #240 notchef
    November 10, 2007

    looks like Noreen’s gonna follow the advice of idiot webjockeys like pat and make bad choices that will kill her. In a couple of years time she’ll be just another entry on AIDS truths dead denialists page http://www.aidstruth.org/aids-denialists-who-have-died.php. Pretty sad or what? Another victim of Duesberg. http://www.aidstruth.org/malignant-narcissism.pdf. How much blood is that monster going to have on his hands when he dies then? Noreen’s for sure unless she starts ignoring the trolls on this site.

    So pat feels he’s qualified to hand out medical advice to Noreen over the internet then? How does that fit with MEC’s threat to report Moore to the Cornell Dean for allegedly doing the same then? Some hypocrisy here or what? How would that letter go?

    “Dear Dean, I want to report Dr JP Moore, PhD for advising a person to consult a specialist physician and obtain professional advice on her health. This is unethical because Dr Moore is not a physician.”

    How fucking stupid is that then? It’s unethical to advise someone to consult a physician??? So the next time my wife says she’s got a nasty cold, and I say “you had better go see the doctor, dear”, I’m going to be hauled up by MEC on ethics charges???? You guys are totally fucking insane!!! Do you ever stop to read anything you write or comment on? No, of course you don’t.

    And why is that the likes of MEC and pat are so gutless that they have to appear here using a moniker? Cowardly, just chickenshit. At least Moore and Bennett have the guts to post under their own names and take the hits and threats. What does that say about them and you, MEC and pat?

    Yeah, I’m not using my own name here. With gun toting psychos like Michael reading this site, I’m not gonna expose my wife and kids to the kind of threats that are handed out by the Michael and his buddies.

    MEC, pat and the other trolls on this site are disgusting, gutless shits who are driving Noreen to her death. Rot in hell you evil scum!

  241. #241 cooler
    November 10, 2007

    NOtchef,
    please take a chill pill and bow your head to your master shyh ching lo md phd, the military’s highest ranking infectious disease pathologist, hes a real scientist, not a fraud that murders innocents like Tara, fauci, jp moore who have unleashed mycoplasma incognitus/penetrans on the population to destroy people’s lives and torture them.

    Shyh lo, the only scientist to discover a microbe that sickened and killed every animal inoculated, why do you people enjoy destroying people’s lives with this infection?

  242. #242 John Givens
    November 11, 2007

    Noreen,

    Thanks for sharing your history. I hope you do well, you seem like a kind, inquisitive person, who makes up her own mind.

    Anyone who would presume to give medical advice over the internet on a blog is, obviously, not someone worthy of listening to. So, feel free to ignore these guys.

  243. #243 Molecular Entry Claw
    November 11, 2007

    Notchef, you haven’t been following my webjockey medical advice have you? Perhaps my instructions were not clear enough last time:

    Purchase, or better find for yourselves since they are unpatentable, 16 smooth round pebbles, preferably white of colour.

    Distribute evenly in 4 pockets, two on the left, two on the right, then circulate by putting one of the 4 in your top right hand pocket in your mouth and suck on it for a minute or two. Put it back in the top left hand pocket, which will now contain 5 pebbles. Place one of the original 4 (not the one you just sucked) in the lower left pocket, which now will be the pocket to contain 5 pebbles. Take one of the original 4 pebbles (not the one you just shuffled from the top left hand pocket)and move to the lower right hand pocket. Now this is the pocket with 5 pebbles. Shift one of the original 4 (not the one you just moved there from your lower left hand pocket) to the upper right hand pocket, which will now contain 4 pebbles, which was the original number but with one new pebble. From here you are ready to repeat the sucking procedure.

    If you suck on each stone for 2 minutes, you should be able to suck and shuffle all the stones in about 35-40 minutes, by which time you should have regained your mental equilibrium assuming there was one to begin with.

    Repeat procedure as often as necessary – there are no toxic side effects – and let me know how you’re getting on in a couple of days.

    Please feel free to contact me personally if you need me to refer to you to a professional stone sucker therapist in your area. Tara will guaranteed give you all my contact info seeing that you’re a patriot.

    Get well soon and cheers.

    MEC

  244. #244 pat
    November 11, 2007

    “A webjockey giving advice saying not to take advice frpm webjockeys? A bit oxymoronic.”

    Not really. Noreen takes the advice from her doctors and herself. Not you webjockeys, not me webjockey. No one cares about your death predictions.

    “looks like Noreen’s gonna follow the advice of idiot webjockeys like pat and make bad choices that will kill her.”

    What was my idiotic advice? Ah, to listen to her doctor and herself and not assholes making death predictions. Dumb advice?

    “So pat feels he’s qualified to hand out medical advice to Noreen over the internet then?”

    What was my medical advice? I’m waiting for you to explain.

    “MEC, pat and the other trolls on this site are disgusting, gutless shits who are driving Noreen to her death. Rot in hell you evil scum”

    How am I driving her to her death? I am waiting for you to explain you gutless piece of shit!

    “How fucking stupid is that then? It’s unethical to advise someone to consult a physician?”

    No, it is unethical to tell someone they will DIE WITHIN THE YEAR. Can’t you guys tell the fucking difference?

    “And why is that the likes of MEC and pat are so gutless that they have to appear here using a moniker? Cowardly, just chickenshit. At least Moore and Bennett have the guts to post under their own names and take the hits and threats. What does that say about them and you, MEC and pat? ”

    Patrick Moore, I already said it. you cowardly moniker yourself!

  245. #245 pat
    November 11, 2007

    “Anyone who would presume to give medical advice over the internet on a blog is, obviously, not someone worthy of listening to. So, feel free to ignore these guys”

    Well put John.

  246. #246 noreeen
    November 11, 2007

    Let’s move one. Obviously we all have differing medical opinions. I’m sure that I will contiune to listen to that “inner voice” that has guided me successfully along this far. Maybe Tara will start a treatment dialogue then we can all feel free to comment without being attacked.

  247. #247 Noreen - Still Standing
    November 11, 2007

    This blog has gone from being a good debate and source of information to mud slinging, name-calling and dodging bullets in the trenches. Good, cheap entertainment though!

  248. #248 pat
    November 11, 2007

    I got to quote this again. It is pure gold.

    “And why is that the likes of MEC and pat are so gutless that they have to appear here using a moniker? Cowardly, just chickenshit. At least Moore and Bennett have the guts to post under their own names and take the hits and threats. What does that say about them and you, MEC and pat?

    Yeah, I’m not using my own name here. With gun toting psychos like Michael reading this site, I’m not gonna expose my wife and kids to the kind of threats that are handed out by the Michael and his buddies.”

  249. #249 franklin
    November 11, 2007

    Cooler,

    Can you direct us to the organizational chart for Infectious Disease Pathology in the Military?

    I’d like to know if your claim that Dr. Lo is “the military’s highest ranking infectious disease pathologist” is based in reality or if it’s just part of your fantasy life.

    Please don’t back up your claim by directing us to a work of fiction.

  250. #250 pat
    November 11, 2007

    “According to Dr Shyh-Ching Lo, senior researcher at The Armed Forces Institute of Pathology and one of America’s top mycoplasma researchers…”

    he does exist. Does he need to be an admiral ?

  251. #251 cooler
    November 11, 2007

    “Shyh-Ching Lo, MD, PhD, chief,. Division of Molecular Pathobiology,. Department of Infectious and Parasitic. Diseases Pathology”
    from AFIP newsletter.

    Dr Joel Basemen from the NIH on Lo’s work.
    “The meeting was led by Dr. Joel B. Baseman, a mycoplasma expert at the University of Texas Health Sciences Center at San Antonio. He said the participants were ”very impressed with the quality of science that Dr. Lo’s group displayed.”

    ”The pathology data was solid and convinced us that the agent is in the tissues,” Dr. Baseman said. The ability of M. incognitus to cause a fatal wasting disease in monkeys and mice persuaded most participants that the microbe ”has the potential to cause disease in humans,” Dr. Baseman said
    New York times 1990

    Franklin, your scientific delusions dont really add up, like HPV causing cancer 40 years later, no animal model, just straight dru company propaganda.

  252. #252 cooler
    November 11, 2007

    Shyh-Ching Lo, MD, PhD, chief,. Division of Molecular Pathobiology,. Department of Infectious and Parasitic. Diseases Pathology

    from afip news letter

  253. #253 cooler
    November 11, 2007

    Inoculated mice monkeys, embryos, chimps all sickened and died with mycoplasma incognitus/penetrans, refrences posted in this and other threads. Not found in one healthy control

    Im sorry you live in a delusional drug company induced world where you think microbes like hpv with no animal model and a 40 year window period cause disease.

  254. #254 notchef
    November 11, 2007

    yeah pat, like there’s a real chance that you and mec are gonna be stalked by pyscho Michael when you’re on the same side, sure! The AIDS denialists threaten violence on this site, not the scientists. You’re a total fuckin moron.

    And yeah pat, you, mec and the other denialist trolls on this site are driving Noreen to her death by making her belive HIV is harmless. A CD4 count below 100 is a terrible prognostic marker for an HIV-infected person. She needs proper help, away from disgusting killer scumbags like you.

  255. #255 notchef
    November 11, 2007

    Franklin, why do you bother asking cooler any questions? Read this post of his again.

    please take a chill pill and bow your head to your master shyh ching lo md phd, the military’s highest ranking infectious disease pathologist, hes a real scientist, not a fraud that murders innocents like Tara, fauci, jp moore who have unleashed mycoplasma incognitus/penetrans on the population to destroy people’s lives and torture them.

    Shyh lo, the only scientist to discover a microbe that sickened and killed every animal inoculated, why do you people enjoy destroying people’s lives with this infection?

    This nutjob is saying that Tara Smith and Shyh Lo (his hero for fuck’s sake) are involved in a criminal conspiaracy with Moore and Fauci to wipe out the human race with mycoplasma. Of course he’s living in a fantasy world – he’s totally fucking insane for christs sake!!! Why bother asking him what Dr Lo’s position or rank is? Dr Lo would be embarassed if he knew his name was being used by a lunatic like cooler.

  256. #256 cooler
    November 11, 2007

    I never said they were directly involved in any conspiracy, I said by them being professional scientists it is very unethical(to say the least) for them not to raise more awareness about this infection thats ruined the best years of my life, and the lives of thousands of other people (At least).

    So in a sick kind of way, if you are a bonafide scientist, and you ignore an impending epidemic because you only listen to drug companies and Crooked politicians like heckler and Fauci, you are directly or inderectly engaging in genocide and torture.

  257. #257 Noreen - Still Standing
    November 11, 2007

    Hold up Notchef, you cannot blame them for my beliefs. It’s easy for both sides to argue back and forth because you don’t have a horse in this race. Some of us have to weed through the bs and try to determine who makes the most sense to us. Granted I will admit that both sides make some valid points and there are flaws in both ways of thinking. So, this leaves some of us in the middle then we have to rely upon our inner gut as we all know studies can be flawed or not all studies, which show contrary points of view, ever get published.

    So I personally take them with a grain of salt. I go more on what I see and how I feel. If I listened to some, I would be scared ****less, panic and go back on drugs that I might not need. Then my normal blood counts would take a dive and I would be anemic again and surely this is not good. If LDN works for me and it does, then why not back off and rejoice that a better way has been found. Let those who have to deal with this make up their own mind and use whatever works for them. It’s not our place to tell another to stop or to take these drugs for that is one’s own decision. I only state what has worked for me.

  258. #258 cooler
    November 11, 2007

    Lo would proabaly agree with me. His whole hypothesis was that this novel strain was pathenogenic in humans, and the NIH team headed by Dr. Joel Baseman agreed and was very impressed by his work. “the documentation was absolutely solid”

    Impressed by his ability to induce a fatal wasting disease in mice and monkeys. To see it by EM in sick AIDS patients rotting organs. Found it to be the cause of death in 6 people that died of mysterious infections.

    And this was 1990, imagine how many people it has spread to now, a microbe that can easily masquerade and be misdiagnosed as many other illnesses like CFS/Depression.

    Very sad that some “professional scientists” like to see people suffer.

  259. #259 franklin
    November 11, 2007

    I’m sorry Cooler, I still don’t quite understand the organizationsl chart.

    Is Dr. Lo really “the military’s highest ranking infectious disease pathologist”?

    You sure he isn’t outranked by Dr. Wear?

  260. #260 noreeen
    November 11, 2007

    Cooler, what were the symptoms of the six deaths and was there any connection to each other?

  261. #261 cooler
    November 11, 2007

    Noreen, here is what happened to these 6 patients,and some more info. These are probably extreme cases, similar to hiv rapid progressors, most with this infection probably have a slower disabling course.

    EXAMPLE 20

    Vaccine Containing Cells Infected by M. fermentans incognitus

    Sixteen chimpanzees are divided into four groups. Group A is inoculated
    intravenously with 1 ml of the novel M. fermentans incognitus. Group B is
    inoculated with 1 ml of fluid containing 10.sup.6 M. fermentans
    incognitus-infected NIH/3T3 cells. Group C is inoculated with 1 ml of fluid
    containing 10.sup.6 inactivated M. fermentans incognitus-infected NIH/3T3
    cells, and Group D is the control group and did not receive an inoculation.

    All chimpanzees in Groups A and B developed symptoms of AIDS. However, none
    of the chimpanzees in Groups C and D developed the symptoms of AIDS. The
    chimpanzees of Group C are rendered immune to subsequent challenge of
    intravenous inoculation with 1 ml of M. fermentans incognitus or 1 ml
    containing 10.sup.6 M. fermentans incognitus-infected NIH/3T3 cells.

    EXAMPLE 21

    M. fermentans incognitus Identified In Non-AIDS Patients

    Six patients from six different geographic areas who presented with acute
    flu-like ilnesses were studied. The patients developed persistent fevers,
    lymphadenopathy or diarrhea, pneumonia, and/or heart, liver, or adrenal
    failure. They all died in 1-7 weeks.

    These patients had no serological evidence of HIV infection and could not
    be classified as AIDS patients according to CDC criteria. The clinical
    signs as well as laboratory and pathological studies of these patients
    suggested an active infectious process, although no etiological agent was
    found despite extensive infectious disease work-ups during their
    hospitalization.

    Post-mortem examinations showed histopathological lesions of fulminant
    necrosis involving the lymph nodes, spleen, lungs, liver, adrenal glands,
    heart, and/or brain. No viral inclusion cells, bacteria, fungi, or
    parasites could be identified in these tissues using special tissue stains.
    However, the use of rabbit antiserum and the monoclonal antibodies raised
    against M. fermentans incognitus (Example 8), the pathogen shown to cause
    fatal systemic infection in primates (Example 10), revealed M. fermentans
    incognitus antigens in these necrotizing lesions. In situ hybridization
    using a .sup.35 S labeled M. fermentans incognitus-specific DNA probe
    (Example 18) also detected M. fermentans incognitus genetic material in the
    areas of necrosis.

    Furthermore, M. fermentans incognitus particles were identified
    ultrastructurally in these histopathological lesions. M. fermentans
    incognitus was associated with the systemic necrotizing lesions in these
    previously healthly non-AIDS patients with an acute fatal disease.

    Typical areas of necrosis due to the M. fermentans incognitus infection of
    these patients are shown in FIG. 21. Most of the tissues which had massive
    necrosis showed only minimal lymphocytic or histiocytic response and few
    neutrophils (FIGS. 21A, B and C). FIG. 21A is a photomicrograph of splenic
    tissue (x 30.5). FIG. 21B shows the peripheral margin of necrosis of 21A (x
    153). FIG. 21C is a photomicrograph of lymph node tissue (x 15.25).
    Occasionally, a chronic or acute inflammatory reaction could be identified
    in the areas of necrosis (FIG. 21D). FIG. 21D is a photomicrograph of
    adrenal gland tissue (x 153).

    Representative samples of the immunostained tissues of these patients are
    shown in FIGS. 22A-D. FIG. 22A is a photomicrograph of spleen tissue (x
    80). FIG. 22B is a higher magnification of the margin of necrosis of 22A (x
    353). FIG. 22C is a photomicrograph of lymph node tissue (x 257). FIG. 22D
    is a higher magnification of cells with positive cytoplasmic staining of
    22C (x 706). FIG. 22E is a photomicrograph of hemorrhagic necrosis in
    adrenal gland tissue (x 706). The areas which displayed the highest
    concentration of M. fermentans incognitus related antigens were often at
    the margin of necrosis.

    However, the necrotic center and peripheral unaffected areas had relatively
    low reactivity. Most of the positively stained cells were identified as
    lymphocytes or histiocytes in the lymph nodes and spleen, or reactive
    mononuclear cells in the liver, lungs, adrenal glands and heart.

    Immunostaining of control tissues with necrotizing lesions from patients
    with cat scratch disease, Hodgkin’s disease, malignant lymphoma,
    cryptococcal fungal infections and hemorrhagic splenic tissues of Hairy
    cell leukemia did not display a positive reaction. Serum obtained from the
    same rabbit before immunizaiton with M. fermentans incognitus antigens also
    failed to display a positive immunoreaction in the necrotizing lesions of
    the six patients.

    Using a .sup.35 S radiolabeled psb-2.2 M. fermentans incognitus DNA probe
    (Example 18), strong labeling of clusters of cells at the margins of
    necrosis of the affected tissues was observed. The affected tissues tested
    were formalin-fixed, paraffin-embedded spleen, lung, lymph node, adrenal
    gland liver and bone marrow. The intensity of the labeling, or the number
    of grains localized in the cells at the margin of necrosis was well above
    the level present at either the necrosis (FIGS. 23A and B). However, there
    were also clusters of apparently viable cells in the necrosis which were
    also strongly labeled (FIG. 23C). FIG. 23A shows strong labeling of cells
    at the peripheral zone of necrosis (x 76.5). FIG. 23B is a higher
    magnification of 23A (x 422). FIG. 23C shows the occasional positive
    labeling in an area of diffuse necrosis in the spleen (x 150). The inset of
    23C is a higher magnification (x 422).

    Formalin-fixed, paraffin-embedded liver and spleen tissues from a patient
    with pancreatic carcinoma were used as negative controls, and showed no
    labeling above background levels. A control probe of .sup.35 S labeled
    cloning vector DNA, not containing psb-2.2 M. fermentans incognitus DNA did
    not label any of the tested tissues (FIG. 23D). FIG. 23D is the same area
    of FIG. 23C in the consecutive tissue section, hybridized with .sup.35 S
    labeled cloning vector DNA not containing psb-2.2 M. fermentans incognitus
    DNA (x 150) (i.e., control for 23C).

    Areas of the necrotizing lesions which immunostained most positively for M.
    fermentans incognitus specific antigens were examined by electromicroscopy.
    Particles with characteristic ultrastructural features of M. fermentans
    incognitus were directly identified in all the lesions. These particles in
    the areas of necrosis, morphologically resembled M. fermentans incognitus
    previously identified in Sb51 cells (Example 4) and in the tissues of
    experimentally inoculated monkeys (Example 10). The particles were
    heterogeneous in size and shape, with most particles being spherical and
    about 140 to 280 nm in diameter. At the margin of necrosis, the M.
    fermentans incognitus particles were located in the cytoplasm of cells with
    apparently no cytopathic changes, or in fragments of cytoplasm from
    completely disrupted cells (FIG. 24). FIG. 24 shows electron mircographs of
    tissues derived from areas highly positive for M. fermentans
    incognitus-specific antigens. FIG. 24A is an electron micrograph at a
    margin of necrosis in adrenal gland tissues (Bar=1,000 nm). FIG. 24A.sub.2
    is a higher magnification of 24A (Bar=100 nm). FIGS. 24B.sub.1, and B.sub.2
    are electron micrographs of the peripheral zone of necrosis in lymph node
    tissue (Bar=1,000 nm). FIG. 24B.sub.3 is a higher magnification of
    24B.sub.2 (Bar=100 nm).

    Table 5, below, summarizes the profiles and histopathological findings for
    each of the six patients.

    TABLE 5
    __________________________________________________________________________
    Summary of Patient’s Profiles and Histopathological Findings
    Tissue with necrotic
    Duration
    lesions identified
    Personal
    Salient clinical of illness by biopsy or at Patient
    Profiles presentation (weeks) autopsy
    __________________________________________________________________________
    1 29-year old
    arthralgia, myalgia, conjunc-
    4.5 spleen, lung
    black man
    tivitis, persistent fever,
    hypercalcemia, liver failure
    (late), ARDs* (late)
    2 33-year old
    persistent fever, diarrhea,
    7 lymph nodes, liver,
    white woman
    generalized lymphadenopathy,
    spleen, kidneys
    abnormal liver functions,
    seizure (late)
    3 40-year old
    arthralgia, myalgia, sore
    3.5 adrenal glands
    white man
    throat, chest pain, persis-
    (bilateral), heart,
    tent fever, malaise, diarrhea,
    brain
    finger numbness, comatose
    (late)
    4 31-year old
    vomiting and diarrhea, tremor,
    1.5 liver, spleen
    black woman
    fever, epigastric and chest
    pain, abnormal liver functions,
    headache
    5 23-year old
    Watery diarrhea, vomiting,
    3 liver, heart
    white man
    jaundice, arthralgia, myalgia
    6 33-year old
    fever, malaise, nausea and
    1 spleen, liver
    black man
    vomiting, myalgia and weakness,
    liver failure and jaundice,
    confusion and hallucinations
    (late)
    __________________________________________________________________________
    *ARDS Adult Respiratory Distress Syndrome

    17 Lo, S.-C., Dawson, M.S., Newton, P.B., Sonoda, A.A., Shih, W.-K., Engler, W.F., Wang, R.Y.-H. and Wear, D.J. Association of the virus-like infectious agent originally reported in patients with AIDS with acute fatal disease in previously healthy non-AIDS patients. Amer. J. Trop. Med. Hyg. 1989; 41: 364-376.

    18 Lo, S.-C., Wear, D.J., Shih, W.-K., Wang, R.Y.-H., Newton, P.B. and Rodriguez, J.F. Fatal systemic infections of nonhuman primates by Mycoplasma fermentans (incognitus strain). Clin. Infect. Diseases 1993; 17(Suppl 1): S283-S288.

    19 Lo, S.-C., Buchholz, C.L., Wear, D.J., Hohm, R.C. and Marty, A.M. Histopathology and doxycycline treatment in a previously healthy non-AIDS patient systemically infected by Mycoplasma fermentans (incognitus strain). Mod. Pathol. 1991; 6: 750-754.

  262. #262 Noreen - Still Standing
    November 11, 2007

    Cooler, what cities and dates did these deaths occur? I don’t doubt that some of the manmade mycoplasmas have been patented and are probably locked away for experimentation or possible wartime use. Did these individuals have any connections to each other?

  263. #263 pat
    November 11, 2007

    “yeah pat, like there’s a real chance that you and mec are gonna be stalked by pyscho Michael when you’re on the same side, sure! The AIDS denialists threaten violence on this site, not the scientists. You’re a total fuckin moron.”

    I have never threatened violence. Why you think I am a denialist escapes me, maybe you don’t know the meaning of the word. What am I in denial of? I am not Michel, I don’t give a flying fuck about that guy. You are bigger than a fucking moron. You are a fucking simpleton with too few shoeboxes at home to fit us all in.

    “And yeah pat, you, mec and the other denialist trolls on this site are driving Noreen to her death by making her belive HIV is harmless. A CD4 count below 100 is a terrible prognostic marker for an HIV-infected person. She needs proper help, away from disgusting killer scumbags like you.”

    Listen here, you fucking illiterate bozo: I never said HIV was harmless so how am I driving her to her death? I merely pointed out that JP Moore’s behavior by prognosticating her imminent “death within the year” based on nothing but a few clues, is unethical. It is fucking BIG TIME UNETHICAL, you twit! Why I can’t say that without being called a “denialist” and a murderous scumbag is beyond me. Schubladedenken is common to all people, even I do it but considering the venom you throw at me that is completely inconsistant with what I wrote, I can only deduce that it has become habitual with you.

    Your reasoning on why you are allowed to be a chickenshit is hilarious though.

  264. #264 pat
    November 11, 2007

    notchef,

    make a note on your fridge: “buy more shoeboxes!”

  265. #265 cooler
    November 11, 2007

    no idea, but garth nicolsons finding this microbe by PCR in many CFS patients etc, too bad armed defense intelligence agents threatened him to stop his research when he was at the md cancer center, I doubt he would lie about that.

    Seems it was part of the biological weapons program, which is why a military scientist knew so much about it. Google Project day lily to read nicolsons new book , true story slightly fictionilized, rave reviews from real scientists.

  266. #266 Molecular Entry Claw
    November 11, 2007

    Notchef,

    If you don’t feel you are achieving the expected results from your sucking stone therapy, likely because of mental resistance, here’s some trouble shooting advice given by the inventor. The remarkable thing about this I’m sure will not escape you: This brave scientists is testing his revolutionary remedy on himself before attempting it on macaques and Africans. I hope his example will inspire you to work with your own problems in an equally noble and disciplined manner. As before, let me… let us all know how you are getting on. Please don’t be shy when expressing
    yourself; we’re all laughing with you, not at you:

    I distributed the sucking stones equally between my four pockets, and sucked them turn and turn about. This raised a problem which I first solved in the following way. I had say sixteen stones, four in each of my four pockets these being the two pockets of my trousers and the two pockets of my greatcoat. Taking a stone from the right pocket of my greatcoat, and putting it in my mouth, I replaced it in the right pocket of my greatcoat by a stone from the right pocket of my trousers, which I replaced by a stone from the left pocket of my trousers, which I replaced by a stone from the left pocket of my greatcoat, which I replaced by the stone which was in my mouth, as soon as I had finished sucking it. Thus there were still four stones in each of my four pockets, but not quite the same stones. And when the desire to suck took hold of me again, I drew again on the right pocket of my greatcoat, certain of not taking the same stone as the last time. And while I sucked it I rearranged the other stones in the way I have just described. And so on. But this solution did not satisfy me fully. For it did not escape me that, by an extraordinary hazard, the four stones circulating thus might always be the same four. In which case, far from sucking the sixteen stones turn and turn about, I was really only sucking four, always the same, turn and turn about. But I shuffled them well in my pockets, before I began to suck, and again, while I sucked, before
    transferring them, in the hope of obtaining a more general circulation of the stones from pocket to pocket.

    I realize the hazard of sucking the same four stones over and over may seem like an unacceptable side-effect of the therapy to you, Notchef, but I wanted you to know there are ways of minimizing the risk.

    Enjoy!

  267. #267 John Moore
    November 11, 2007

    Noreen, I am serious about my offer of trying to arrange for you to see a specialist HIV/AIDS physician in a leading medical center. If you live in or near a major city, particularly one in which the university has a Center for AIDS Research (CFAR), it should be possible. I’m not willing to post my contact details on this site, as I already get quite enough threatening and offensive emails and phone calls from AIDS denialists, but I have asked Tara to put you in touch me if you ask her to.
    John Moore

  268. #268 John Givens
    November 11, 2007

    More failure from the AIDS establishment.

    NEW YORK TIMES, 11/08/07

    In a puzzling and potentially troubling development, an AIDS vaccine tested in a closely watched trial might have increased the risk among vaccine recipients of becoming infected with H.I.V., researchers reported yesterday at a scientific meeting in Seattle.

    It’s only puzzling, if AIDS is your religion as well as your professional meal-ticket. Most normal people understand that it’s B.S.

    But the new analysis looked at all the trial participants and found a wider difference — 49 in the vaccinated group compared with 33 in the placebo group. Further analysis showed that the imbalance was much more apparent among those who had the highest level of pre-existing immunity to the cold virus used in the vaccine.

    Read that again: 33 in the placebo group developed HIV, while 49 in the vaccinated group developed HIV. In other words, doing nothing was much safer, than taking the vaccine.

    The beat goes on and on and on and on and on.

  269. #269 jspreen
    November 11, 2007

    I’m not willing to post my contact details on this site

    You should, John, you should. If you did put your email here, firstly you wouldn’t get more mails at all, because a person who wants to send you lover letters or hate mails can easily find information about how to contact you since it’s smeared all over the web. Secondly, if people found your email address here, they maybe wouldn’t think of Googling for example “john p moore” email and stumble upon all kinds of information about you and about what a lackey you really are.

    I personnaly don’t think much of the OPV theory either but the way you treat any person who doesn’t easily kneel fore the nonsense you defend, man, it’s pathetic!!

  270. #270 Molecular Entry Claw
    November 11, 2007

    Noreen, I am serious about my offer of trying to arrange for you to see a specialist HIV/AIDS physician in a leading medical center.

    Why? Are you calling Noreen’s present “AIDS doctor” incompetent Prof. Johnny Wishbone?

    I’m not willing to post my contact details on this site, as I already get quite enough threatening and offensive emails and phone calls from AIDS denialists

    Since, like every other neo-con chickenshit who declares himself always ready and willing to fight, you are in reality a coward through and through, physically as well as intellectually, perhaps we cold persuade your university
    to assemble a team of bodyguards for you, Prof. Moore, and arrange that you receive confidence boosting self defence lessons.

    In this as well as your intelligence gathering and literary
    efforts I fancy I could be of great use to you.

    Again my services come cheaply.

    Yours truly

    MEC

  271. #271 noreeen
    November 11, 2007

    John, there is a medical training university in my town and my AIDS doctor has been treating AIDS patients and training doctors for many, many years. So in that regard, I feel that he is as competent as any that you might know. He has been with me through thick and thin and he knows my medical history quite well. I like him and give him a Christmas present each year. You see, we have come to have respect for each other and for each other’s position. At this point in time, I don’t think there is anything to gain by switching or seeing another doctor. But if you know a good fibromyalgia doctor, then send him or her on.

  272. #272 pat
    November 11, 2007

    This is from that article linked above NEW YORK TIMES, 11/08/07

    “Researchers told reporters by telephone that when such an analysis is performed after a trial is stopped, defining what is statistically significant is difficult.”

    this reminds me of the countless other trials cut short due to “overwhealming success”: defining what is statistically significant is difficult.

  273. #273 cooler
    November 11, 2007

    Noreen, maybe you could see Dr. Lo, he will show you the light, and is far more competent, intelligent and better looking than jp moore. But before you see him you must stay silent for 15 minutes and bow your head in eternal awe. This is no ordinary mediocre scientist like moore.
    eternal hugs,
    cooler

  274. #274 cooler
    November 11, 2007

    In all seriousness, was your tcell count always this low, did it increase with arv therapy? Did your tcell count slowly decline or was it always at 50?

  275. #275 Christine Maggiore
    November 11, 2007

    According to Stats South Africa October 2007 publication The Community Survey 2007:

    “The population of South Africa has increased by nearly 8 million between 1996 and 2007, a nearly 20% jump over 10 years.”

    Any AIDS Truthies want to come to Los Angeles–all expenses paid–and engage in a public discussion on Mbeki, South Africa and “denialism?”

  276. #276 noreeen
    November 11, 2007

    Yes, mine have stayed in the mid-eighties and they did increase with HAART. When I stopped the HAART, it reverted back to what they were orignally. Cooler, this is why I don’t get bothered by T-cell counts as they have been low when I was sick and low when healthy. So, the mainstream can’t have it both ways.

    Supposedly, this is a true story. Many were at an AIDS meeting and they were all comparing their T-cells. One persons were over 500 one 300, one under 100 and the one person sitting quietly in the back raised his hand and stated, I only have one T-cell left, but its a good one!This got a good laugh from the crowd. Numbers, numbers are not the key to all of this but “SYMPTOMS,” because one wiil not be sick without them. Some of you think that I am dying but there isn’t any evidence of this. I will probably outlive many of you long after you have argued about what causes AIDS.

  277. #277 pat
    November 11, 2007

    I’d love to be invited to one of those…as a listener, well understood.
    I can only speculate as to why Chris won’t answer, he is here everyday. He is on all blogs all day.

  278. #278 John Givens
    November 11, 2007

    From MedPage, July 27, 2007

    SYDNEY, July 26 — Investigators remain puzzled about why a supposedly safe anti-HIV microbicidal gel turned out to increase the risk of HIV in women who used it.

    So, again, like the vaccines, you take the microbicide, it INCREASES your risk of contracting HIV.

    The AIDS establishment is “puzzled” about their vaccine failures, now they are, again, “puzzled”about their microbicide failures. Also, they are “shocked!”

    We did not and do not have an explanation,” Dr. Van Damme told attendees at the International AIDS Society meeting here. “It was a shock to all of us.”

    Most normal people are neither puzzled, nor shocked about these bumbling fools who have exploited the fears of this inert retrovirus, and made lots of money selling drugs — that spread the virus!

  279. #279 Adele
    November 11, 2007

    “Christine Maggiore” says
    According to Stats South Africa October 2007 publication The Community Survey 2007:”The population of South Africa has increased by nearly 8 million between 1996 and 2007, a nearly 20% jump over 10 years.”

    Yeah toobad “christine maggiore” doesn’t know the real Christine Maggiore he would know how it’s crappy thinking. Population increase doesn’t say there’s no AIDS!! Real Christine knows a family who’s population had a 100% jump in less then 10 years. From two to four!! Then 25% of the population died of AIDS. One of four! Over all after the death there was a 50% jump in less then ten years. Two people to three people! Lots more grwoth than South Africa but lots more percentage death of AIDS.

    !!
    OK now Cooler. Says he’s Steve Billingham on those blogs where Arizona denialists says its fun to experiment on Jewish babies.

    cooler take notes OK look up what I said October 15 at at Denialism they don’t remember,

    Steve Billingham doesnt know Dr. Lo’s name its Shyh-Ching not shyh ching.
    Steve thinks Dr. Lo has a military rank Dr. Lo is not in the military he does not have a rank. Hes a civilian federal employee.
    Dr. Lo is not head of AFIP he is not Dr. Mullick is.
    Dr. Lo is not head of Infectious and Parasitic Diseases Dr. Wear is.
    Dr. Lo is not head of a department in AFIP there are like 20 departments in AFIP he’s not head of one.
    Dr. Lo is a chief of a molecular pathology lab like a P.I. in academics. That’s a great acheivement!! So don’t make him look silly lying about him.

    Have some respect for Dr. Lo go play some video games with your sister steve.

  280. #280 cooler
    November 11, 2007

    Adele,
    stop lying, you dont have masters and your no pcr tech, I looked all over facebook and couldnt find that quote by rob swartz, looks like your lying again. If it bothers you so much why dont you message him, I dont even know him.

    Your whole life is a lie, where did you get your masters? you work in a lab all week, so youve got your wireless notebook with ya there right to post all day, yep, youre a joke.

    This is his title at the AFIP

    Shyh-Ching Lo, MD, PhD, chief,. Division of Molecular Pathobiology,. Department of Infectious and Parasitic Diseases Pathology

    dont be so insecure and sling insults when everything that comes out of your mouth is a lie. Why do you post here all day, nobody values your opinion besides a couple of crackpacks, just spend time in your imaginary lab!

    Oh and call people anti semites all week, well I think youre an arab hating racist, you think israel has the right to practice aparthied and take 85% of the water from the west bank for israeli use only? Damn racist.

    Just a lying wannabe scientist. Im glad I irritate you, you damn loon, stalk me all over the internet because no one wants to be around you, so you make up a story that youre a lab tech! Who would ever suspect anyone lying about that! good one adele keep up the good work. LOL

  281. #281 pat
    November 11, 2007

    “Yeah toobad “christine maggiore” doesn’t know the real Christine Maggiore he would know how it’s crappy thinking. Population increase doesn’t say there’s no AIDS!! Real Christine knows a family who’s population had a 100% jump in less then 10 years. From two to four!! Then 25% of the population died of AIDS. One of four! Over all after the death there was a 50% jump in less then ten years. Two people to three people! Lots more grwoth than South Africa but lots more percentage death of AIDS.”

    Still having trouble making out who is who? Blame it on yourselves. Adele, I hope you never have kids and if you do I hope you never have to go through the grief of loosing one especially when the inconsiderate assholes start wheighing in.

    Can you show us what S. Africa’s growth rate should be?

  282. #282 pat
    November 11, 2007

    “Steve Billingham doesnt know Dr. Lo’s name its Shyh-Ching not shyh ching”

    I’m not really following your other catfights but this sherlock moment of yours just jumped out at me.

  283. #283 Truthseeker
    November 12, 2007

    Thanks, Adele, for your citation of our latest paper. I hope you found it of interest. If the trolls read it, I expect that will lead to the same kind of laughably inept deconstruction of its contents that happened when Anthony Liversidge attempted to interpret the meaning of one of my earlier papers on his Blog. All that proved to me was that the denialists were even more ignorant of the meaning of peer-reviewed science than I had ever suspected (in other words, I had been giving them way too much credit). Scientific ignorance underpins AIDS denialism, and is exemplified by the quality of the denialists’ postings on this site. It’s no wonder they ask the same questions over and over again, and then ignore the answers they don’t like – the reason is that they don’t understand the science, never have and never will. One might as well answer them in Swahili…….

    Posted by: John Moore | November 9, 2007 12:35 PM

    Good Lord. In view of our nomination of John (at New AIDS Review) for the Nobel for his early recognition in his own papers in peer-reviewed journals of weaknesses in the claim that HIV positivity leads to AIDS, this comment seems rather churlish.

    As anyone can check, we recently posted lengthy appreciations of two of John’s seminal papers which have offered supportive analysis and data to dissenters, which don’t seem to have been accorded the prominence they deserve. In what regard is our analysis “inept”? And why has John failed to post a correction on Science Guardian/New AIDS Review? He knows he is always welcome there, since we love to deconstruct the scientific claims of paradigm defenders by quoting from their own mainstream literature, although regrettably even fully paid up members of the HIV defense squad such as Chris Noble don’t seem to survive very long.

    We have praised John wholeheartedly for making the case against HIV/AIDS so clear by a) protesting far too much b) offering helpful evidence and analysis in his papers that the dissenters are exactly right c) drawing attention to the critics as loudly as possible d) showing he has no scientific answer to scientific criticism, and has only ad hominem attacks to offer, including appeals to universities to fire those who question the unlikely paradigm.

    In the light of all this some may think that John’s political performance in defending the HIV/AIDS paradigm is inept, but we believe there is a different explanation. We are fairly sure that Moore is a closet dissident, or at the very least, preparing his way to survive the collapse of this murderous paradigm unscathed.

    His consistent record shows us that while he may be perched on a high branch of the HIV/AIDS tree, he is driven by conscience to draw attention to the dissent and reinforce it with admissions in his papers. This is why we heartily approve of his helpful activities listed above and have nominated him for the top prize in science, which as you know reflects achievement in the cause of helping humanity.

    Bob Gallo and Anthony Fauci have also been nominated in our posts at New AIDS Review for their own contributions in making it clear in their papers that HIV is not and cannot be the cause of AIDS, Gallo managing to do this in his very first four papers on the topic, even before Peter Duesberg’s Cancer Research rejection of this irrational claim.

    We are just sorry that the Nobel committee can only include three names in any one prize, for it appears that John, for all his strenous efforts to bare the truth in this realm, will miss out on the grand prize. Gallo, Duesberg and Fauci have already beaten him to it.

  284. #284 Douglass
    November 12, 2007

    I see my fellow commenters are soundly presenting their case against the insane arrogance and hostility of the AIDS activists. I am not going to bother much with you all. Anyone who propounds warfare and outright harm to their adversaries who only want to promote a reason that would explain the utter failure (and negligence) in confronting and ending the AIDS paradigm is clearly in the wrong. Just tell me, whose motivation is pure? You, who have a vested interest in promoting the unsupported medical science which has resulted in death to millions of victims? What a scam! You all should be ashamed of yourselves. I know many of us find you all deplorable. One day, the world will see your error.

    Think about it. After 25 years of this construct of HIV/AIDS you have made no progress. No vaccines, no cure, only a lethal ARV’s treatment which has shown, decidedly, to do more harm than good, followed by excuses, false statistics, improper trial studies, blame and accusation. You even try to shift the blame on others. Looks to me like you are modern day “Reformers” reminiscent of the Dark Ages. If someone could give you the power, you would burn books and heretics a like. In your hateful zeal, you call your opponents “denialist” which is of course is inflammatory since you would try to link us in some perverted way with those who deny the holocaust. Everyone knows your yen for distorting the facts. Well for your information, we call ourselves dissidents, in the tradition of Copernicus, Galileo, and Duesberg.
    You must know you are completely without merit. Not being able to prove that HIV causes AIDS by the rules and laws of science, you simply abandon those tried and true steps and have taken a leap of faith into the new science and techno babble of RNA, genes, cloning, what ever cover you can find that will confuse and divert people from catching on that your hypothesis of HIV>AIDS>Death is finished.
    What have you to show for all the money and time spent? NOTHING! ZERO! SQUAT! NADA! ZIP! You are all a bunch of losers who are bolstered by the succe$$ of your failures. Your leaders Gallo and Fauci, both blow hards who tap dance around the facts and end up with nothing substantive, but dribble. I’ll stick with my leaders who have, first and foremost, a pure caring heart. Who out of their generosity and compassion for others, sacrificed their time and jeopardized their careers to make the truth known. These doctors, scientist, journalist and other professionals, numbering and recorded in the thousands, are from my experience, good natured and in the highest tiers of academic accomplishment.
    Look at your sour pusses. Who is right and who has the high ground?
    Oh yes, this thread was supposed to center on Mbeki. I am especially proud to have him on our side. He is a stellar human being with all attributes of greatness. He has demonstrated his courage and independent thinking on many occasions. He has successfully led his country of South Africa, for nearly a decade, out the grip of Apartheid. He is widely loved and respected by his country. I’m sure we will see much more of him on the world scene.

  285. #285 Molecular Entry Claw
    November 12, 2007

    Christine or not, here’s the numbers and the due credit. Now why hasn’t Tara done a post on these joyous tidings? hmmmm…

    “Dear Guardian,

    I would like to congratulate President Mbeki for being the courageous leader he is. He has not bowed to the nonsense of apartheid, and has not bowed to the nonsense coming out of the AIDS industry.

    HE HAS BEEN VINDICATED. I quote from your article the following:

    ” Yet, as the book points out, the government’s own statistics show the effect of Aids in South Africa has been “catastrophic” with more than 2 million people already dead and one in eight of the working-age population infected with HIV. ”

    This is simply not the truth, and I have the data to back me up.

    Here are the projected population sizes by the US Census
    Bureau (one model with aids, one model without aids) and
    the population size from the latest Household Survey of
    Statistics South Africa (2007).

    43.9 million (US Census Bureau, with AIDS)
    49.3 million (US Census Bureau, without AIDS)
    48.5 million (Statistics South Africa, 2007 Household Survey)

    As you can see, the population size from the latest Household Survey is a lot closer to the US Census Bureau model that projects no mortality from HIV/AIDS.

    Not only that, but the model that takes into account mortality from HIV/AIDS *shows a declining population*.

    Both the without AIDS model and the Household Survey show a *growing population*.

    This is a vindication of President Mbeki, and a testimony
    to his courage, for taking on the farmaceutical industry
    and their lobby, TAC.

    Seven years ago, when the President convened a conference
    highlighting both AIDS believers and dissidents, we were told ‘there is no time’, ‘lives are being lost’, and therefore, there was no need for a debate, not only on the cause of HIV/AIDS, but on the nature of the epidemic itself, or the ways it is estimated using, and the tests, whichdo not work in the African context.

    Well guess what – all the shrill, screaming voices
    were wrong, and President Mbeki was and is right.

    This is man of great intelligence and integrity,
    a combination unique in the world’s leadership.

    He is to be commended and congratulated.”

  286. #286 Molecular Entry Claw
    November 12, 2007

    “SYDNEY, July 26 — Investigators remain puzzled about why a supposedly safe anti-HIV microbicidal gel turned out to increase the risk of HIV in women who used it.

    So, again, like the vaccines, you take the microbicide, it INCREASES your risk of contracting HIV.

    The AIDS establishment is “puzzled” about their vaccine failures, now they are, again, “puzzled”about their microbicide failures. Also, they are “shocked!”

    We did not and do not have an explanation,” Dr. Van Damme told attendees at the International AIDS Society meeting here. “It was a shock to all of us.”

    Most normal people are neither puzzled, nor shocked about these bumbling fools who have exploited the fears of this inert retrovirus, and made lots of money selling drugs — that spread the virus!”

    Let me add to the above from John Givens this excerpt from Washington Post:

    “Among a group of nearly 700 subjects worldwide who received two doses of the vaccine, 19 became infected with HIV, compared with 11 for a similarly sized group that received placebos. The finding alarmed some scientists and underscored the tricky ethics of using human subjects to test potential remedies for incurable diseases.

    South African researchers last week began warning hundreds of volunteer test subjects that the vaccine might actually have increased their risk of contracting HIV.

    Two trials for microbicides — gels that women insert into their vaginas to prevent infections — also ended when more women using the experimental substance became infected with HIV than those using placebos. Scientists theorize that vaginal irritation caused by these products may have made it easier, not harder, for the virus to infect women. A study of whether diaphragms might inhibit HIV found that they were also ineffective.

    “It’s been an appalling year for the biologists,” said Francois Venter, president of the Southern African HIV Clinicians Society.

    Technology vs. Reality

    A technology that has worked in highly controlled settings often fails in the context of actual sexual behavior.

    Hospitals routinely use antiretroviral drugs, for example, to prevent infections in doctors and nurses stuck by HIV-infected needles. But when researchers asked healthy West African women to take such medicine every day, the difference in infection rates was so small that scientists could not determine whether the medicine worked.”

  287. #287 pat
    November 12, 2007

    “Christine or not, here’s the numbers and the due credit.”

    Thank you. Adele can stop googling now. Don’t call me christine, it will confuse Adele’s brain cell.

    Pat

  288. #288 Jorg
    November 12, 2007

    Wow. This is my first direct exposure to HIV-deniers, and while fascinating–in a sick and demented way–all I can say is WOW. In some ways they are worse than creationists. I can only hope *their* memes aren’t contagious.:)

    I don’t want to indulge in name-calling, so I’ll stop here.

  289. #289 pat
    November 12, 2007

    “Wow. This is my first direct exposure to HIV-deniers, and while fascinating–in a sick and demented way–all I can say is WOW. In some ways they are worse than creationists. I can only hope *their* memes aren’t contagious.:)”

    Don’t worry, there is a pill on the way for people like you who are afraids of thought infection.

  290. #290 pat
    November 12, 2007

    Jorg,
    any thoughts of your own on S. Africa?

  291. #291 Molecular Entry Claw
    November 12, 2007

    Haha… Pat, Jorg is just looking for a few hits on his website. Make him happy and visit it. More than half his posts have zero comments and the record number is 3.

    Wow indeed.

  292. #292 pat
    November 12, 2007

    Ah, ok. I ckecked out your site Jorg and skimmed throught your “crank” post link. Some people, like you, love to spend their brain power on real trivial pursuits. Can you give me directions to the “crank” leadership JP Moore refers to? Do they have a “camp” and an anthem? Please tell me because I am itching to kick their butts, I just can’t seem to find the “camp”.

  293. #293 noreen
    November 12, 2007

    Maybe we, “rethinkers,” should get organized and have a rethinkers convention and elect a leader. Then Chris and John would have something to really worry about, the people hearing the truth!

  294. #294 pat
    November 12, 2007

    For a while I was looking everywhere I saw a Jolly Rogers for that damn elusive denialist “camp” because I thought to myself: “well pirates are scumbags and so the scumbags I am looking for MUST be here too. All of them! The Holocaust deniers, the Evolution deniers etc..” but then I realized that the Jolly Rogers was already taken by AZT. I also realized that the human body doesn’t generate enough of a gravity force so the “scum of the world” couldn’t really “gravitate” to one another.

    “In some ways they are worse than creationists.”

    This nonsense about “a mixed bag of nuts” is so dense that if I were to put it in a sucrose density gradient and spin it through ultracentrifugation, the crap would be all over the walls.

    “In some ways they are worse than creationists”

    Tell me, what on earth can possibly be worse than creationists?

  295. #295 ElkMountainMan
    November 12, 2007

    John Givens and others unwittingly admit to us what they can’t or won’t consciously acknowledge to themselves: HIV exists, it is transmissible, and it is far from harmless. Zealously celebrating of the end of the Merck vaccine trial, they have apparently failed to keep up with the news…and to remain logically consistent.

    “Failure of AIDS Shot linked to cold virus” by Craig Timberg, Washington Post Foreign Service, Thursday, November 8, 2007; Page A24

    This WaPo article reports an intriguing fact: the investigators found that only those trial participants who had immunity to the adenovirus (a cold virus) used to package the vaccine experienced higher rates of infection. Even so, the numbers are low, opening statistical analyses to potential criticism. In the much larger non-adenovirus-immune population, there was a statistical dead heat between vaccine and placebo. Did the vaccine work? Apparently not. Did it increase susceptibility to infection? Perhaps it did, in people with certain immunities. In the general population, it may not increase risk. The doubts were enough for the overseers to shut down the trial. That should tell us something about their ethics, something in opposition to what our denialist friends have been telling us.

    But what is this entire conversation based upon? On infection rates. This vaccine (or that microbicide), the denialists gloat, is said to increase one’s risk of infection.

    But according to Perth, HIV has never been proven to exist, which most Perth followers interpret as “HIV does not exist.” How can a non-existent virus infect anyone? Perth followers who point to a vaccine failure implicitly admit that HIV exists.

    According to Duesberg, HIV exists but is a harmless passenger. It is spread perinatally, from mother to child. Sexual transmission is so unlikely according to Duesberg that if he is right, we would not necessarily expect ANY case of infection in the entire Merck vaccine trial. The virus is passed from mother to infant, and only adults are included in the trial. Duesberg followers who revel in the vaccine failure implicitly admit that HIV is sexually transmissible.

    Denialists also claim that HIV is “inert,” harmless. Yet they point to vaccine trials as unethical, even Nazi-like, if the vaccine increases risk of infection. How can this be if HIV is inert? A harmless virus does not drive down CD4+ T-cell levels or otherwise disrupt the immune system, so no one with the inert virus will have to take “toxic” antiviral drugs unless he or she has some other, unrelated immune dysfunction. We have already learned that HIV positive patients WITH serious immune dysfunction (whether or not one ascribes the condition to HIV itself) have higher survival rates when taking antiretrovirals than when not taking antiretrovirals, even with all of the drug side effects included. Denialists who use the vaccine failure as an argument implicitly admit that HIV is harmful.

  296. #296 Noreen - Still Standing
    November 12, 2007

    No, not at all. Some of us admit that HIV is a harmless “retrovirus.” We at least admit that it probably exists. We also admit that there are flaws in the HIV hypothesis that most accept as Moses accepted the Ten Commandents without question. This is where modern-day science has failed us. Instead of pursuing other avenues and having double-blinded studies, they jumped wholeheartedly on the HIV bandwagon and won’t get off. But then, there isn’t any funding available for other viewpoints. Look what happened to Duesberg, one of America’s greatest scientists and look what happened to Jonathan Fishbein for blowing the whistle at the NIH.

    The Russian leader was correct when he stated that we will fall from within. Our politicians are a joke on both sides of the fence, our president, who knows what he is thinking. Lobbists and big corporation control our representatives. One just got caught with money stashed in his freezer but how much more in handled out in envelopes to vote for their causes that we never know about? In the meantime, the average citizen is stuck with the system of corruption and with governmental agencies that won’t do their job of public service. It is wise to question and keep on questioning because most are not looking out for our best interests but their own.

  297. #297 Braganza
    November 12, 2007

    Noreen,

    You ask my non-medical doctor opinion.

    As far as I understand from previous posts, you have decided to treat an HIV infection firstly with non-antiretrovirals because of their toxicity, as you believe that in a long term they cannot be beneficial to your health. You have trialled different options and are now using LDN.

    My opinion is that you should discuss all the case with a medical doctor that 1) would have a confirmed record of treating HIV+ people, and 2) would have practice of using LDN.

    It is important that the doctor would at least understand what LDN is, because most doctors would never have heard of it, they are just trained to do what the guidelines are saying, and LDN is not yet in these documents.

    The doctor who developed LDN has indicated that it work only with patients that are responsive and manage to decrease the IFN-alpha to approx. 11 i.u. The decrease of the IFN was related with the probability to be free of OI’s. So I expect that you are controlling your IFN-alpha.

    ElkMontainMan indicated that there are many IFN-alpha, so you should ask Dr. Bihari or one of his co-authors or the persons that are performing the LDN study in Mali, the exact procedure that they have used to measure the IFN-alpha and we may be able to deduce which one he was referring to.

    My guess is that with LDN treatment, many others cytokines are down-(or up-) regulated and have not been measured.

    You also write that your level of antibodies is decreasing. I have been thinking that your doctors are measuring your immunoglobulins Ig, which are high when you have an infection/ or an autoimmune disease.

    I can remember that I have read a study of A methodology of treatment of an HIV+, using ARV and source of glutathione where the authors where following the increase in CD4 and the decrease of Ig.

    I need to trace the document to post it, but if the authors are competents these would mean that it is good that the Ig is going down to normal values.

    In Wikipedia, in “immunoglobulin”, it is reported that “in the case of Epstein-Barr or Lyme disease, (..)
    If (..) antibodies are not present, (..) the infection occurred a very long time ago, and the B cells generating these specific antibodies have naturally decayed.(..)

    So I think that Franklin and Prof. Moore should explain more why they are so worried, so we can all understand better.

    P.S. Apparently there is no need to make PCP prevention with LDN. PCP would be another OI, and you are making prevention using LDN.

    Medical doctors that dont have read anything about LDN and would just follow the guidelines would not know and may advice you wrongly.

  298. #298 noreeen
    November 12, 2007

    Thnaks Braganza, you speak the truth and with common sense. Something that is far too lacking nowdays. If LDN wasn’t working and I had O.I.’s then I would listen to what is being preached to me but this has never been the case. I don’t know the ends and outs of how it works but not being a doctor nor scientist, I don’t need to know all of the technical information. I just know that it works. I tell others about it because it could help so many with immune deaseses, not just AIDS.

    The doctors, who prescribed it to me in the first place, are well versed in its use. Thankfully, they are ahead of their time and of many physicains. Nevertheless, the good news is that more and more patients are requesting it and more and more physicains are learning about it and prescribing it. Hopefully, in the near future, it will become a commonly prescribed drug. Miracles still do exist and this wonderful drug has been one for me!

  299. #299 Braganza
    November 12, 2007

    Noreen,

    I have been reading the link that you provided:

    http://breakfornews.com/aidsmyth/report/articles/051501mattirwinproblemshivantitest.htm

    I arrived to the Giraldo experiment, and as a chemist, I have been thinking that his experiment was RIDICULOUS.

    The purpose of the dilution is to increase the selectivity, no dilution = no selectivity, and therefore when the sample is not diluted the Elisa results are not valid.

    You can trust me more on this question of dilutions than on all the deductions that I may do on LDN. The key of the Elisa is the reaction between the antibodies and the virus particules and I have done (in lab scale) plenty of reactions in all sort of substrates and all kind of concentrations !

  300. #300 Braganza
    November 12, 2007

    Noreen,

    Could you ask your doctors if it is normal that after using LDN the Ig comes down ?

    This would help to know if your case is a normal one or not.

    We – the readers of your post- would also know more about LDN.

  301. #301 noreeen
    November 12, 2007

    Braganaz, since some think that I no longer show antibodies to Hepatitis, then by their logic, wouldn’t I no longer show antibodies to HIV? Do you think that this is due to an immune issue or to a faulty lab test?

  302. #302 Braganza
    November 12, 2007

    Noreen,

    Which immunoglobulin is decreasing ? There are a number of them.

    The study that I was refering is indicating IgE going down as the result of increasing glutahione in HIV+ patients.

    See in the example 3 of the patent:

    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6262019.pdf

  303. #303 felonyoffense
    November 12, 2007

    Noreen, I am serious about my offer of trying to arrange for you to see a specialist HIV/AIDS physician in a leading medical center….but I have asked Tara to put you in touch me if you ask her to. John Moore

    To recommend a physician from general knowledge or from personal experience is entirely OK and commonly done.

    However, to “arrange to see specialist” enters an entirely diferent world.

    Referral to a specialist is reserved for licensed physicians, and for others is illegally practicing medicine without a license, a felony in most states punishable by fines and imprisonment.

    If John Moore PhD wants to play doctor, then let him go to school and get the proper credentials.

  304. #304 John Moore
    November 12, 2007

    In response to Braganza’s enquiry about antibody decay rates, there’s an article from Mark Slifka’s group in the latest New Engl J Med on the general subject, although it does not cover Abs to HIV.

    One has to take into account here the interactions between the cellular and humoral immune systems. The B-cell responses that generate and sustain IgG production are usually, but not always, dependent on CD4+ T-helper cells. The loss of T-helper cells as a result of HIV infection can therefore compromise B cell function and the generation or maintenance of IgG production. This is a complex area of immunology, and the responses to different pathogencs (indeed different antigens from different pathogens) can differ. For example, during HIV disease progression, the antibody response to the HIV core antigens such as p24 tends to be lost much earlier than the response to the HIV envelope antogens such as gp120. The loss of the p24 antibody response reflects the loss of T-helper functions, and is a poor prognostic indicator of the progression to AIDS and death.

    I remain concerned about Noreen’s apparent loss of antibody responses to several pathogen antigens. That’s likely to be an indication of progressive loss of immune function caused by her HIV infection. There may be other explanations, but loss of T help for B cell function is a reasonable one to consider, in the circumstances.

    ElkMountainMan is of course quite correct. When the AIDS denialists criticize enhanced infection rates in vaccine or microbicide trials they are implicitly accepting that:

    1) HIV exists.
    2) HIV infection is dangerous to the recipient.
    3) HIV infection can be accurately diagnosed by the use of PCR-based viral load assays.
    4) (In the case of microbicide trials) that HIV can be vaginally transmitted by a man to woman, and in both Africa and elsewhere.

    Of course logic and critical analysis of what they are actually saying has never been the AIDS denialists’ strength, so their actions here are not surprising.

    Braganza, there’s an article on the http://www.AIDSTruth.org site under the “who are the denialists” section about Roberto Giraldo and his stunning inability to understand the basic principles behind ELISAs. It makes the same points you make. Giraldo used to work as a technician in a clinical diagnostics lab, despite his failure to understand the scientific basis of the assays he was supposed to use to test clinical samples. Fortunately, he no longer does. Unfortunately, Giraldo’s grasp of science is on a par with the AIDS denialists’ in general: utterly pitiful. It’s why we fight to oppose their influence on people like Noreen.

  305. #305 pat
    November 12, 2007

    Elkmountain Dude,

    I may be able to help with your problem.

    You say “denialists” do “this” and then they say “that” but then they also say “this” etc…The reason you are so confused about what “denialists” want or even say is that you too only have one shoebox at home. Everyone knows that Perth and Duesberg disagree but only you are confused about why. Those who say HIV is harmless will not say it doesn’t exist and vise versa. You take unconnected thoughts and group them into a boggeyman that you have named “denialist”.

  306. #306 Braganza
    November 12, 2007

    Dear Molecular Entry Claw,

    It does not look correct to say that TAC is “the lobby of the pharmaceutical industry”.

    TAC may have some strategic alliance with some pharmaceutical companies, but you dont have proof that they are not honest people with STRONG convictions that ARV’s would help to treat low CD4 HIV+ people.

    How can you explain that TAC struggled to have ARVs at the lowest cost possible, by buying generics…which would not be the interest of BIG PHARMACEUTICALS COMPANIES?

  307. #307 Noreen - Still Standing
    November 12, 2007

    I’m glad you bring up sexual transmission is Africa, Dr. Moore. What are we to conclude by all of this, that they are sex crazed in Africa? Don’t Americans and other nations of the world have as much sex? I have yet to hear a logical explanation of why the majority of AIDS (not HIV) cases are in the gay, male population? Why, even if you are allowed to include HIV cases, the numbers are low in America. A few thousand cases out of an population of 300 million. One would have a better chance of winning the lottery than getting AIDS.

    This must be a very smart virus to not cause AIDS equally in the male and the female population even though, new, military recruits test 50% male to 50% female. Tell us Dr. Moore, why doesn’t the AIDS statistics reflect this dispargy?

  308. #308 pat
    November 12, 2007

    “trials they are implicitly accepting that:

    1) HIV exists.
    2) HIV infection is dangerous to the recipient.
    3) HIV infection can be accurately diagnosed by the use of PCR-based viral load assays.
    4) (In the case of microbicide trials) that HIV can be vaginally transmitted by a man to woman, and in both Africa and elsewhere.”

    Wow, I actually can agree on something with JP Moore but with one exception. From this this trial I can buy the following:
    1) HIV exists
    3) HIV can be measured
    4) HIV is also sexually transmitted (although not as efficiently as say, HSV.)

    but please explain how this trial shows that HIV is dangerous to the recipient. I think you made a mistake; I think that evidence is in a different paper altogether. right?

  309. #309 pat
    November 12, 2007

    “How can you explain that TAC struggled to have ARVs at the lowest cost possible, by buying generics…which would not be the interest of BIG PHARMACEUTICALS COMPANIES?”

    I am glad you bring that up. TAC and Mbeki indeed make for strange bedfellows. In the years before, TAC and the SA government led a united front against oppressive and murderous patent rules. It is only after the west refused to budge on patent rules and Mbeki got suspicious of pharma behavior that this alliance started to desintegrate. As soon as this happened the door was open for the attack- divide and conquer. Mbeki’s main mistake was to voice his concerns out load because the second he did that it was all about HIM and not about the patent rules. Even without Mbeki the ARV “rollout” would be slow and financially crushing for the SA government because the west still won’t give them for free even though we can WELL afford it.

  310. #310 John Moore
    November 12, 2007

    Noreen, almost everything you say in your last post about HIV transmission and prevalence statistics in the USA and Africa is factually flawed and has been rebutted ad nauseam in multiple postings on Blogs like these. I’m not going to waste my time repeating these posts.

    If you want to read more about HIV infection in Africa, I refer you to an early posting I made alerting you to Helen Epstein’s recent book (The Invisible Cure) and Nicoli Nattrass’s book (Mortal Combat). I reviewed the Epstein book in J Clin Invest this month, and a review of the Nattrass book (by Mark Wainberg) is to be found in the latest IAS Newsletter, which you can access via the weblink I listed in an earlier posting.

    Those books provide excellent coverage of this subject.

  311. #311 Jorg
    November 12, 2007

    MEC: Obviously, ad hominem is your preferred style of debate. Two can play this game, but for the nonce I’ll just say that your logic and arguments fail to impress me. I actually could not care less whether anyone visits or leaves comments on my blog; it is a rather small part of my life.

    Pat: I don’t know if the asymmetric collapse of supernovae is a “trivial” pursuit; I have been known to do that, among other things. ;-) But that is neither here nor there. I have very few thoughts on South African situation since I am not a specialist in either epidemiology or politics of that area; my opinion of “deniers” is based solely on the internal logic (or lack of it) of their posts in this thread.

    Oh, and also, we Pastafarians know pirates are not scumbags!

    In the interest of fair disclosure, I must say that about 20 years ago, I *almost* believed that Duesberg could be right (it was a possibility at the time); I think that the weight of the evidence has shifted since then, and he has no leg to stand on anymore. The Perth group never impressed me much.

  312. #312 Noreen - Still Standing
    November 12, 2007

    What, John, you are avoiding the question but that’s standard policy just like the politicians when confronted with reality. Are you going to say that its a different strain that is infecting Africa. You don’t mind giving an opinion on my health, someone that you haven’t met nor seen medical records for. You won’t meet and debate Christine or any rethinker, yet we are all suppose to take John’s word for everything because he says its the truth. I have to agree with others, you are a chicken. The only thing that I will give you credit for is posting your real name.

  313. #313 John Moore
    November 12, 2007

    “Noreen – still standing”. AIDS scientists do not ever “debate” with AIDS denialists. We provide factual information, but we will never “debate” or “discuss” it, for reasons that the hard core denialists are well aware of. Besides, your mask is slipping and you are revealing your true nature/colors now, so I’ll not respond to any further posts of yours (or pat’s, mec’s and the other hard core denialists on this site).

  314. #314 noreeen
    November 12, 2007

    Whats the matter, are we are ganging-up on Homer Boy? Well, if you can’t take the heat then stay out of the Kitchen! When you mainstream thinkers can explain all of the following to me, then I will be happy to join your side:

    1) why is HIV and AIDS cases disportionally in different
    sexes and why has it not spread to the general
    population?
    2) where is the scientific proof that HIV causes AIDS?
    3) If HIV is an STD, then why are the number so low and
    not in the race, section of the country, age group and
    even the sex that has the most in the first place?
    4) why is the antibody test not specific to HIV?
    5) On what scientific basis is it for saying antibodies to
    HIV is equal to having an active infection?
    6) why is Koch’s Prostulates being ignored?
    7) Why hasn’t the HIV Antibody test ever been validated
    with a control study?
    8) Why aren’t the viral load probes and primers validated?
    9) Why is kidney and liver failure and heart attacks now a
    concern for AIDS patients, especially since they are
    not AIDS-defining disease?
    10)If HIV is so deadly, how is it destroying the immune
    system and how are HIV+ living without antiretroviral
    medicaitons?
    11)Explain why a vaccination has failed after 25 years?

  315. #315 pat
    November 12, 2007

    Thanks Jorg,

    Here is an interesting link on the current problems facing Africa as a whole. I link to a text from 2003 at random you can trailblaze from there.

    http://www.africaaction.org/resources/index.php

    This is more intended for Adele who seems to grasp the facts about Africa so well that she even uses them as a substitute to mock Maggiore’re desceased child. Now some would have me believe that Mbeki is the sole cause of AIDS in SA but when you consider the magnitude of the actual disaster in all of Africa, it becomes clear that Mbeki is just another fall guy, another distraction for the actual world bank’s and general foreign policy boondoggle of neglect and outright theft. Mbeki only satisfies the hunger of those obsessed with the “boggeyman theory” of human conflict. They fail to see that the boggeyman is a mechanism; not a particular dude or even a network of particular dudes.
    Are these examples of the “internal logic (or lack of it)” you were talking about?

    “The Perth group never impressed me much.”

    me neither.

    “I don’t know if the asymmetric collapse of supernovae is a “trivial” pursuit”

    I said “I skimmed throught your “crank” post LINK”…you know, this obsession with labelling people cranks, putting them in ONE box and making a theory out of it is…a trivial pursuit. But it is ok, alot of folk here read something I didn’t write like the one where I am supposedly convincing Noreen that HIV is “harmless” and thus driving her to her death. Total fabrication but who gives a shit about accuracy on this blog, eh? I was labelled “denialist” here by some cellar-dwelling biped and since then I could be writing about my new CreaBeton floor and, as sure as the sun rises, there will be a troll saying something nasty about me being a “like” a creationist and how I perhaps could need concrete loafers instead. When I first mentioned the problems of Schubladendenken some while back I instantly had Adele on saying “that sounds Nazi like”. I hear Duesberg and Bialy are homophobes but apparently only because Bialy refers to JP Moore as a “faggot”. In England that is a burnt cigarette, I think but who cares. Moore replies “bigot” It is clear that neither one of them fits their given descriptions. They HATE eachother. Their animosity is well documented and runs very deep. Apparently this behavior is a common trait in many scientists and this blog is perhaps an extention of that animosity, played out mostly by the protagonists’ “lab dogs”. Tonight on Scienceblogs: “FlameWarriors” light wheight “lab dog” championships: Tara Smith versuuuus MAAAniiiiiiOOOtiiiiiiiiiiiisss! I have been fascinated by the trap ever since and I admit to sometimes poking just to provoke it so I can wonder at it in awe just one more time.

    -“Will, how many times must I ask you to call me Elizabeth ?”
    -“At least once more, Miss Swann , as always.”

  316. #316 pat
    November 12, 2007

    “Noreen – still standing”. AIDS scientists do not ever “debate” with AIDS denialists. We provide factual information, but we will never “debate” or “discuss” it, for reasons that the hard core denialists are well aware of. Besides, your mask is slipping and you are revealing your true nature/colors now, so I’ll not respond to any further posts of yours (or pat’s, mec’s and the other hard core denialists on this site).”

    When the patient becomes the enemy…at the first hard ball.

    Do you read this Jorg: “so I’ll not respond to any further posts of yours (or pat’s, mec’s and the other hard core denialists on this site).”

    Now I am “hardcore denialist”. thats new. The invectives grow in direct relation to the number of objections.

    I think four questions and a pouting lip gets you a “hardcore denialist” grade.

  317. #317 jspreen
    November 12, 2007

    What I treat this thread is. The Scientific Community’s admiral ship Ms “Prof John Pee Moore” has been blown out of the water by Noreen still standing so fiercely upright. Some last bubbles surface where debris of the ship went under:

    Besides, your mask is slipping and you are revealing your true nature/colors now, so I’ll not respond to any further posts of yours

    Yeah, true colors. The colors of untouchable truth. Exit Pee Moore who “Will not respond anymore“. Some hours ago he was still fiercely playing the Newly Clothed Emperor. Now only his lackeys pretend they don’t see his naked ass.

  318. #318 takemybasketballandgohome
    November 12, 2007

    John Moore: “Noreen – still standing”. AIDS scientists do not ever “debate” with AIDS denialists. We provide factual information, but we will never “debate” or “discuss” it, for reasons that the hard core denialists are well aware of. Besides, your mask is slipping and you are revealing your true nature/colors now, so I’ll not respond to any further posts of yours (or pat’s, mec’s and the other hard core denialists on this site).

    Translation: if you dont submit to death by toxic drugs, then I will take my basketaball and go home.

    Noreen is standing testimony to the failure of a flawed HIV causes AIDS, toxic drug treatment dogma, which is no longer considered seriously by anyone with the ability to think. Dear john p moore and all the other doctor wannabees, please take your basketball, go home and fabricate some more “factual information”.

  319. #319 A Carricci
    November 12, 2007

    Moore has no time for science! See the extraordinarily disenguous letter below. As Mr. Moore notes, “the number of hours in a day is finite and unchanging….”

    Indeed. But Moore seems to have endless hours for blogging, emailing, and egging on AIDS “denialists”.

    Good thing he has tenure.

    Science 9 November 2007:
    Vol. 318. no. 5852, p. 913
    DOI: 10.1126/science.318.5852.913b

    Letters
    Speaking Out About U.S. Science Output
    I was amazed by J. Mervis’s News of the Week story “U.S. output flattens, and NSF wonders why” (3 August, p. 582). Not by the conclusion that U.S. science productivity is flattening out, but because apparently nobody interviewed by the NSF could identify the reason. Had the question been posed of almost any working scientist I know, the simple and accurate answer would have been that the number of papers that are written is diminishing because scientists are able to spend less time writing papers! Instead, we spend ever-more time on the increasingly burdensome administrative requirements of conducting science legally, and on writing, rewriting, and re-rewriting grant applications as the NIH’s pay line drops to catastrophically low levels. As the number of hours in a day is finite and unchanging, something has to give. If I didn’t have to spend the rest of this month ignoring various half-complete manuscripts and rewriting a grant application, I’d be able to explain in more detail.

    John P. Moore
    Department of Microbiology and Immunology
    Weill Medical College
    Cornell University
    New York, NY 10065, USA

  320. #320 Ed Darrell
    November 12, 2007

    This level of denialism is painful to watch.

    In other news, long-time evolution opponent Ray Bohlin is in Liberia, telling the Liberians they need to spray a lot more DDT around to get rid of malaria. Never mind that the war decimated the Liberian health care system,never mind that DDT doesn’t work, etc., etc., etc.

  321. #321 ildi
    November 12, 2007

    Jorg, Jorg, Jorg, you gave them a web site to piss all over? See, if you don’t get a lot of hits, it means that what you have to say has no merit, don’t you know.

    BTW, is there independent verification of noreen’s claims of her condition? Could be made up; after all, she gets a lot of attention from both sides for it. I’m just sayin’…

    Those of you who stay the course and try to argue the science; I admire your tenacity, and I guess someone has to do it. However, I don’t think it’s a matter of the science, but of the midndset that many people have.

    Is it uniquely American to say “I’m no [specialist in this field], but…” and then have no compunctions arguing with the very specialists who spent years of study and research to become experts in these fields?

    I follow science blogs and comment threads on AGW, 9/11, vaccines, and ID, among others. I don’t pretend to be a climatologist, immunologist, epidemiologist, structural engineer, biologist or any other expert you would need to be to be good at evaluating the studies and data presented for the theories proposed. However, I do have a science background, and I try to evaluate the information in terms of how the scientific method works.

    So, I read for patterns, and trends. When I see that old data or studies are re-hashed, totally ignoring new data, when too much emphasis is placed on one study, or person, or when people start demanding certainties (“show me the one conclusive study…” or “I’ll wait until all the science is in…”,) then I know it’s not about science.

    I have seen noreen post “… they are sex crazed in Africa? Don’t Americans and other nations of the world have as much sex? I have yet to hear a logical explanation of why the majority of AIDS (not HIV) cases are in the gay, male population?” or words to that effect many times, but never see her address the explanations when they are presented, and then I know it’s not about science.

    Reminds me of “how could Arabs living in caves pull this off” argument from the 9/11 truth movement. Good sound bite, but means nothing. Like “sex-crazed” – makes somebody sound racist.

    What is it about, then? Is it about fear? Is it about wanting to win the debate at all costs? Is it the anonymity of the internet? (Sort of like road rage?)

    I don’t know, but I’ll keep reading…

  322. #322 Carter
    November 12, 2007

    ildi,
    It is all about fear. People believe in HIV because they are socially self-hypnotized to do so.

    “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.”
    -Jonathan Swift

  323. #323 pat
    November 12, 2007

    It is not about the purity of the science, it is about the corruption that tags along. For this you need no certifications. This is something that concerns us all. Some just can’t seem to grasp that, when you are talking about Mbeki, you are talking politics but everytime the going gets rough some hide behind intelligible sciencespeak and tells the rest to shut up. If science wants to make policy then the onus is on the science to make itself understandable to those who make policy.

  324. #324 ildi
    November 12, 2007

    “socially self-hypnotized”? WTF?

    The Swift quote is perfect! It sums up one of the challenges that scientists face when communicating with the layperson, and what I mean about this debate not being about science. You should really take it to heart.

    “believe in” is one of those buzz phrases I look for. (Like “do you believe in evolution”.)

    Thanks for playing!

  325. #325 franklin
    November 12, 2007

    Carter says:

    It is all about fear. People believe in HIV because they are socially self-hypnotized to do so.

    No Carter, scientists believe that HIV causes AIDS because of the evidence.

    On the other hand, many denialists believe that HIV is harmless because they or someone close to them is infected with HIV, and, faced with the frightening prospect of AIDS, they deal with their fear with a defense mechanism known as Denial.

    Here’s Michael Geiger’s thoughts about how the prospect that his lover tested positive on a test for HIV infection “was certain proof that there was something wrong with HIV tests:”

    However, it wasn’t until I was directly confronted with the HIV issue from my own lover in 2001, that I decided to fully educate myself and get to the bottom of it all and find out the truth. He was certain proof to me that there was absolutely something wrong with the HIV tests, and there was something wrong with the entire belief system.

    His lover was found to be infected by HIV and he interprets that as “certain proof” that the HIV tests are invalid.

    Sometimes it’s just easier to bury one’s head in the sand thatn to face reality.

  326. #326 Noreen - Still Standing
    November 12, 2007

    I am real and I would give you my doctors names but they wouldn’t comment due to legal issue. However, I can link you to the following newpaper article, which was from last year and a story will probably run again this year. If Tara would permit, I would send a new picture so many of you can see if I am dying of AIDS. http://www.charlestoncitypaper.com/gyrobase/PrintFriendly?oid=oid%3A20543

  327. #327 Chris Noble
    November 12, 2007

    On the other hand, many denialists believe that HIV is harmless because they or someone close to them is infected with HIV, and, faced with the frightening prospect of AIDS, they deal with their fear with a defense mechanism known as Denial.

    Or in Mbeki’s case he was faced with a major health crisis with no easy or cheap solutions. Providing antiretrovirals to all HIV infected people who needed them was goping to be very, very expensive. Pretending that HIV wasn’t real and that it was all some racist CIA plot to destabilize South Africa was obviously very attractive.

  328. #328 carter
    November 12, 2007

    ildi,
    When someone is able to drown out the unbelieveable noise and chatter from the AIDS pulpit and start to think clearly and for themselves, meaning; Think outside that little box, which HIV causes AIDS, AIDS is always fatal, and poison can prolong your life, then one can truly see that there is a dyer need for a complete rethinking on the subject and an urgent need to stop people from marching right on up to take fradulent HIV tests. It’s not all about science, because if it was we’d have results from the likes of this failed camp, death and dying cult created by the likes of Gallo et al. onward called HIV/AIDS

  329. #329 ildi
    November 12, 2007

    You’ve made it clear, carter, that for you it’s not about teh science.

    I’ll put you down for one in the fear category.

  330. #330 ElkMountainMan
    November 12, 2007

    I will join any of you, pat/christine included, in pointing fingers at those who try to keep medicine away from people who need it.

    The stark reality is that South Africa ranks lower than many other countries in the world in terms of percentage of AIDS patients who receive antivirals. This cannot be due entirely to Western greed and evil pharmaceutical giants, since in some other African countries, ARVs are dispensed at three times the rate per AIDS patient in South Africa. Unless christine/pat can prove that pharma and Western governments reserve a special form of racism and colonialism for South Africa (over, say, Uganda), it follows that Mbeki and other elements of HIV/AIDS denial in SA government have contributed to the relative lack of access to drugs.

  331. #331 cooler
    November 12, 2007

    ildi,
    What science what are you talking about?
    hundereds of chimps infected not one has died after 20 years.
    no original papers printed between 1983-1985 that prove hiv causes AIDS using kochs postulates.

    the virus is only in 1/1000 blood tcells or so

    Not one study seeing if people w/o any other risk factors such as azt, mycoplasmas, severe stress/fear of death/drug abuse get aids vs matched controls.

    when no one got sick they extended the window period by years, up to 10-12 now.

    Maybe hiv does cause AIDS but I need more evidence than people babbling about siv infected macaque monkeys and 3 random anecdotal lab workers we know nothing about. Its surely is a debatable issue, many experts will say anything like they did in germany and russia, they have a tendancy to be servents to power.

    You guys just cant stand it when most intelligent people hear both sides of the argument they start having doubts, thats why moore inc love censorship.

  332. #332 Tara C. Smith
    November 13, 2007

    cooler,

    See, this is yet another shining example of your cherry-picking and eliminating large amounts of evidence you disagree with.

    You first ask for a study…

    …seeing if people w/o any other risk factors such as azt, mycoplasmas, severe stress/fear of death/drug abuse get aids vs matched controls.

    Do you understand how this epidemiological research is carried out? We don’t travel around with the people we’re studying. We don’t document their every move to see if they’re lying to us. Research subjects fill out questionnaires, perhaps provide biological samples to be tested, and we largely take them at their word. So these studies you’re looking for use the same type of evidence you dismiss as:

    3 random anecdotal lab workers we know nothing about.

    –they’re just ramped up to collectively look at a hundred or a thousand “random” study subjects “we know nothing about” besides what they’ve told us–the same as the evidence about the lab workers which you dismiss. Why is one OK but not the other, cooler?

  333. #333 cooler
    November 13, 2007

    Im not saying hiv does not cause aids, just that it is a debatable issue, and people who dissent are not “kool aid drinkers”

    Im not aware of one study designed by independent scientists to see if hiv positive people with no risk factors I mentioned above even get aids, which is what you need when most every animal does not get aids. All the epidemilogical studies assumed hiv to be the cause of aids, which is the very question at issue, so they did little to control for confounding factors.

    I never wanted to enter into this debate, I was a happy kid with my whole life ahead of me when I became sick with strange infectious like symptoms that slowly worsened over years, they included memory loss diarrea etc. Try living for years without a diagnosis and see how much you trust the medical establishment.

    I find it totally disgusting that Fauci sabotaged shyh ching Lo’s research when he clearly proved that mycoplasma incognitus/penetrans was pathenogenic to humans. He inoculated mice /monkeys/chimps/embryos and they all sickened and died. He did not find it in one control, he ruled it to be the cause of death in 6 healthy people who died of mysterious infections within 1-7 weeks., he saw it by electron microscopy in sick patients tissues, what more can you do to prove pathenogenicity in humans? all references posted above.

    Why was I not made aware of this when I saw the doctors for years? Why? because its all about money and politics and not science. HPV, Hep c do zilch in animals but they make big money for drug companies. Garth nicolson is finding this horrible microbe in many cfs patients etc. by pcr, antibody testing is unrelaible, when are you scientists going to stop this genocide from occuring? Its about informed consent, and as a scientist you seem to be completely obesqious to the CDC for forming your scientific beleifs, if its not supported by the CDC or big Pharma it cant be true, and anyone that digresses from thier dogma and propaganda is a “kool aid drinker.” Thats not science.

  334. #334 Tara C. Smith
    November 13, 2007

    cooler, you didn’t answer my question. Why do you trust self reports in one type of study, but not another? Why do you lend weight to one over the other?

    Im not aware of one study designed by independent scientists to see if hiv positive people with no risk factors I mentioned above even get aids, which is what you need when most every animal does not get aids. All the epidemilogical studies assumed hiv to be the cause of aids, which is the very question at issue, so they did little to control for confounding factors.

    I don’t think you understand quite what you’re talking about here. The early studies–and even contemporary studies–do indeed control for just these confounders, and indeed, these things needed to be controlled for in order to bring the suggestion that HIV caused AIDS beyond more than just a speculation by one lab group. Additionally, while sure, it’s now common knowledge that HIV causes AIDS, the data are what they are, regardless of presumptions of the researchers. If, for example, AIDS cases sorted randomly amongst a population under study, rather than by HIV status, that would suggest something was wrong with the underlying assumption that HIV caused AIDS. That would have to be addressed by the researcher, regardless of his or her personal beliefs coming into the research. To believe that every AIDS researcher out there either is too stupid to recognize this or too incompetent to see such a gross anomaly in their data just strains the limits of my credulity, to put it mildly.

    Additionally, you claim:

    HPV, Hep c do zilch in animals but they make big money for drug companies.

    cooler, after posting about how miserable you were and how your own doctors failed you, isn’t that rather callous of you to then write off viruses that kill thousands every year? If your beef is with doctors, the CDC, and pharmaceutical companies, why minimize the suffering of other patients who, like yourself, simply want an accurate diagnosis, and treatment for their infection?

  335. #335 cooler
    November 13, 2007

    I’m not minimizing other people from recieving treatment, I want everybody to have informed consent, and that maybe young girls before they get knocked up with 3 hpv vaccines they hear from scientists like Duesberg and Maniotis to see how hpv flunks every one of kochs postulates.

    They then can hear the other side of the story and go to the CDC’s website and then proceed with informed consent. Why do you want them not to not hear certain info that might make merck lose some money? Information that many intelligent people would find compelling?

    Why do I trust self reports in some studies and not others, I really dont know what your talking about, its not that hard, in order to prove a species specific microbe is pathenogenic in humans, especially one with a decade long window period, you need a study that would read like this.

    “because of the long window period with hiv and the lack of a reliable animal model we are going to follow hiv positive people with no other possible risk factors such as azt, mycoplasmas drug abuse stress etc to confirm Gallo’s preliminary hypothesis”

    please send me the reference for this study if you claim it exists.

    Your claim that scientists would blow the whistle if their unproperly designed studies didnt pan out, I doubt they would want to end up like Duesberg, secondly they are so heavily brainwashed by the propaganda campaign its much easier for them to make ad hoc conclusions to subconciously save the hypothesis thats deeply embedded in thier psyches. ie LNTP’ers have special genes, Theres no direct cell killing bc not enough cells are infected so it must be an immune reponse. etc etc

    Its always been throughout history that free thinking scientific minorities have been the ones that were right, such as in nazi germany or Russia, where the majority of experts just went along with the governments propaganda, as they do now. Many experts have spoken out though like Margulis, Pollack, duesberg, strohman, rubin, Lo was a skeptic in 1990 who knows how many more there are who are on the verge of speaking out, who are getting tired of the intimidation. How many more experts are there that are not even aware of the dissidents arguments bc of the heavy censorship? Manufactured consent

    Its all about informed consent, once people heard all the sides of the arguments they’d stop all this madness and start demanding some real evidence, not drug company and CDC propaganda.

  336. #336 Jorg
    November 13, 2007

    ildi: yes, honesty does not seem to be the best of policies on occasion…;)

    Pat: re the lack of logic in (some) comments on this thread, do I have to point out some of the offenders? I am not used to screaming loudly while clapping my ears shut like some “rethinkers” (I still say “denialists”) appear to do. All the classic signs of pseudo-science are here: persecution mania, wilful ignorance, utter contempt for any evidence that does not fit in with their preconceived notions…and they tell us we don’t understand scientific method? My creationist aside may have been a bit too strong, but only a bit: the similarity between thought processes (and debating styles) of some of these people is precisely the same as that of creationist bozos.

    Oh well. It’s night time; I’ve got to get some work done…;)

  337. #337 jspreen
    November 13, 2007

    It’s curious, the comparison of Aids-denialism with creationism. The foundation of creationism is dogmatic reasoning like “The Bible is the Word of God thus everything written in the Bible is the Truth thus the Earth was created in six days.” Etc. Etc.
    Now, if one thumbs through the uncountable pages of Aids apologist vs. denialist discussion with this in mind, where do we find dogma? You got it! Of course, on the apologists side exclusively, “professor” John Pee Moore being a great example of reincarnated Holy Inquisition fanatism.

    *** HIV, the virus that causes Aids *** What does that phrase reflect? The result of years of scientific research? Not at all. Being formulated when it all began, some 25 years ago, this phrase is not a final result but an initial hypothesis. A hypothesis that has been promoted to absolute certainty through the years, not because of some scientific demonstration, but because the holy mantra has been recited 9876546546987654323213654654654 times.

    “HIV, the virus that causes Aids”

    – What are you talking about, it’s nonsense!

    – Repeat after me: “HIV, the virus that causes Aids”

    “HIV, the virus that causes Aids” … “HIV, the virus that causes Aids” … “HIV, the virus that causes Aids” … “HIV, the virus that causes Aids” …”HIV, the virus that causes Aids” … “HIV, the virus that causes Aids” …”HIV, the virus that causes Aids” … “HIV, the virus that causes Aids” …”HIV, the virus that causes Aids” … “HIV, the virus that causes Aids” …”HIV, the virus that causes Aids” … “HIV, the virus that causes Aids” … .. .. Hey! I see the light. It’s true: “HIV, the virus that causes Aids” !!!!!! Halleluja, Halleluja …..

    “HIV, the virus that causes Aids” … Hey, Mr Pee Moore, ever thought of composing a gospel song?

  338. #338 Braganza
    November 13, 2007

    Pat,

    Your answer on TAC as “an agent for the pharmaceutical industry” was a distraction. How can you maintain that when you reported that they struggled for access to cheap/ generics drugs ?

    You should be more balanced in your analysis, and dont figure the world only in black and white.

  339. #339 pat
    November 13, 2007

    “Pat,

    Your answer on TAC as “an agent for the pharmaceutical industry” was a distraction. How can you maintain that when you reported that they struggled for access to cheap/ generics drugs ?”

    I don’t remeber calling TAC an “agent” for the pharmaceuticals; that was maybe someone else?. I did say they formed a united front with SA until Mbeki started having doubts. Zachie achmat is a very militant character? I doesnt take much to get on his bad side and have him hanging from your ass.

    To whoever wrote this:

    “Unless christine/pat can prove that pharma and Western governments reserve a special form of racism and colonialism for South Africa (over, say, Uganda), it follows that Mbeki and other elements of HIV/AIDS denial in SA government have contributed to the relative lack of access to drugs.”

    You do know that Uganda, although it dispenses ARV’s for free and only sisnce 2004, certainly doesn’t get them for free. Uganda simply went further into debt to pay for the scheme. And all this while the world babbles on incoherently about “debt relief”.
    We attack one new disaster by exacerbating another very old one. Racist, colonialist? probably? Bullshit? most definitly.

  340. #340 pat
    November 13, 2007

    “My creationist aside may have been a bit too strong, but only a bit: the similarity between thought processes (and debating styles) of some of these people is precisely the same as that of creationist bozos.”

    I know what you are trying to say but it is not “the similarities with creationist arguments” that anoy you. What annoys you is the internet discussion. Go and see how egyptologists talk to eachother and you’ll find the same thing there.

  341. #341 pat
    November 13, 2007

    “You should be more balanced in your analysis, and dont figure the world only in black and white.”

    I don’t know whay you tell me that. That is advice for those who would like to pin it all on the “Mbeki boggeyman” theory. My world is plenty complex and this is what I wrote about it:

    “SA but when you consider the magnitude of the actual disaster in all of Africa, it becomes clear that Mbeki is just another fall guy, another distraction for the actual world bank’s and general foreign policy boondoggle of neglect and outright theft. Mbeki only satisfies the hunger of those obsessed with the “boggeyman theory” of human conflict. They fail to see that the boggeyman is a mechanism; not a particular dude or even a network of particular ”

    not as black and white as the “Mbeki/AIDS” theory.

  342. #342 Braganza
    November 13, 2007

    Pat,

    Sorry that I cannot understand you.

    Can you translate this to simple, easy to grasp concepts, and related them to the AIDS in Africa problem ?

    (..) actual world bank’s and general foreign policy boondoggle of neglect and outright theft. Mbeki only satisfies the hunger of those obsessed with the “boggeyman theory” of human conflict. They fail to see that the boggeyman is a mechanism; not a particular dude or even a network of particular (..) “.

    What should have been the WB policies ? what are the critical aspects of the “mechanism” ?

    Thanks for your time.

    P.S. On the Uganda question dont worry about the debt, Ugandese government know that they are not going to pay anyway, as these are the new rules of the game. Debt is to be forgiven in the future.

  343. #343 ildi
    November 13, 2007

    I have to think a lot of this behavior is due to the anonymity of the internet. Can you imagine jspreen going to Cornell and ranting in this bizarre fashion directly to Dr. Moore? Or, calling his phone and leaving a voice-mail like this? In any other venue it would be a sign of a fairly disturbed mind. Somehow in a comment thread this seems acceptable, however.

    If you go to jspreen’s web page, you see that the commonality with Noreen and cooler is that they all appear to be people with no prior medical or scientific training who have become ill or had family become ill and been let down by the medical community in various ways. From jspreen’s web page:

    “two dramatic events forced me to become aware of what badly ill people go through during classical cancer treatment. My confidence in the medical know-how used to be complete, but when things got worse for two very close family members, I started to ask the concerned specialists some basic questions like “What is cancer?” and “What are its causes?”. The bewildering answer was “We don’t really know, but it is not important. The only important thing is to strike fast.” It finally did not take long before the evidence hit me in the face: “They have really no idea of what they are doing!”

    I guess this is a way of gaining back some measure of control.

  344. #344 John Moore
    November 13, 2007

    Dear ildi. Re your comment:

    Can you imagine jspreen going to Cornell and ranting in this bizarre fashion directly to Dr. Moore? Or, calling his phone and leaving a voice-mail like this?

    Well, various AIDS denialists have indeed left rambling, disturbed and vaguely threatening voice mails on my phone, usually during the night when they know I won’t be there. I don’t think any of them are from jspreen as none of the speakers had a Dutch accent. Various denialists are also in the habit of sending abusive, almost invariably anonymous screeds (emails or letters) full of references to toilets, lavatory paper, monkey genitals and related irrelevancies to other scientists and administrators at the College, presumably in the belief that this sort of reasoned approach (sic) will cause me to be dismissed or disciplined. It’s the same kind of “thinking” that caused at least one AIDS denialist to write to the U of Iowa to try to get Tara fired for daring to operate this Aetiology site.

    All I can say is that it takes a lot more than the abuse I receive from these people, on this Blog or elsewhere, to intidimate me.

  345. #345 pat
    November 13, 2007

    Braganza,

    Africa as a whole is dealing with very complex problems and very little money. Alot of the reality on the field today is a direct result of European and American plunder and neglect over the centuries. These words are harsh but Africa IS harsh. To name a few:
    Hundreds of years of slavetrade-related social and cultural destruction. Over a hundred years of colonial goverment exploitation of resourses and neglect of the people. After the end of colonialism we see nothing but the same plunder. The only difference is that it is done today by proxy and not by direct occupaton. The World Bank under the auspices of western nations led by the USA are the direct offenders.
    These re-inforce poverty through unfair trade practices and the corruption of African governments to support them. The Blood that flowed (and still flows) is the red in the flag. The natural resources that were plundered (and are still plundered) is represented by the yellow in the flag. I am sorry if these sound commie or leftie or whatnot but this is what I see when I look closely. Look closely at the actions of the World Bank on the African continent and you will quickly see that something is going terribly wrong and you don’t need any kind of certification whatsoever to comprehend the sheer problem that Africa faces to this day.
    A quick example off the top of my head would be Cameroon I believe. WB cleans up the books and effectively put them under supervision (WB calls the shots). The new policy was a drastic attempt at social engineering led by nothing more than a bunch of bean counters and one of their first ideas was to streamline the workforce. The moto was that “they should do what they do best and import the rest”. So they did away with rice farmers for example and took away some of that land to make way for foreign owned open pit mines. The idea was that the newly dispossessed rice farmers (and all kinds of other farmers) would then be employed at the mines and the rice would come from an “efficient” rice producing country such as …Thailand. In the meantime hardly any locals work at the mines, most moved to the cities in search of jobs further exacerbating the infrastructure and to top it all off the rice is imported from…the USA. I cant recall the price. This is a few years back; search the BBC archives, it is amazing what you will find there.
    These are just a few examples of who is meddling in Africa nowadays, of the “mechanism”. The critical aspect of the mechanism is that although it has claimed the moral high ground, it does nothing to defend it, let alone promote it. So when I hear simplistic “lapdog” attacks on a single guy like Mbeki for causing a national health crises, I can’t help myself but to chuckle at the innocense of such a position. Of course it also enrages me because it is a good distraction from all those that are out there cashing in on African disarray. It also enrages me that people would usurp the moral high ground to launch cheap personal attacks based on half-truths and a reductionist revision of history. It is historical record that although the ability to deliver “life saving” drugs was always within the power and ability of western nations, the political will was never there to make it hapen and this well past that fatefull day in 2000 when Mbeki said “what the f..k?” It is clear though, as you say , that in the future debt relief will be a reality but not because of the generosity of the west but simply because of the sheer impossibility to ever recoup it. I do wonder what kind of obligations are going to be imposed on Uganda or Africa as a whole for the privilage of defaulting by reason of reality?

  346. #346 pat
    November 13, 2007

    “”Well, various AIDS denialists have indeed left rambling, disturbed and vaguely threatening voice mails on my phone, usually during…”

    Maggiore appears to have a very similar personal tale of crank phone calls, abusive anonymous e-mails
    and whatnot. You have more in common than you think.

  347. #347 pat
    November 13, 2007

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKjgCYRHhzk
    for example…as a starter.

  348. #348 Molecular Entry Claw
    November 13, 2007

    All I can say is that it takes a lot more than the abuse I receive from these people, on this Blog or elsewhere, to intidimate me.

    Dear John,

    you may not be “intidimated” by this, but you know very well you’re intimidated by everything from bad typing to your own shadow, which seems to be one and the same thing in this case. But I do appreciate your machismo in the face of such fearsome odds: grieving mothers old gay hippies, people living on other continents…

    Really Johnnie Who are you kidding? Nobody can be bothered calling you, night or day, because you’re a weirdo… one of those nerdy, unsexy weirdos. Nobody likes you, not even your pet macaque – you know the one out of the lot that survived all your vaginal challenges. But what the hell, since you have now shared your fantasies with us, I’ll help you with this as well as all your other shortcomings. Just publish your phone number and office hours, and I’ll arrange for some groaners to call you free of charge – yes I know you’re a cheap bugger too – and tell you how big and brave you are. State your preferences but please be advised we don’t do simians.

  349. #349 jspreen
    November 13, 2007

    Can you imagine jspreen going to Cornell and ranting in this bizarre fashion directly to Dr. Moore? Or, calling his phone and leaving a voice-mail like this?

    Why should I do that? I have nothing to say to Mr Pee Moore in private. If I send a contribution here every once in a while, it’s not to address naked assed Emperor Moore and his lackeys, but to attract some attention of people who are looking for a way to gain back some measure of control. Somebody gave me some new ideas a couple of years ago which set me on my way, now it is my duty to pass on the information.

    You went over to my site and came back with some phrases you quoted here. I have good hope that someone, somewhere, reads that quote, starts to dig deeper and finally also gets away from the deadly “scientific community” indoctrination.

  350. #350 franklin
    November 13, 2007

    Pat,

    If the deaths in South Africa are unrelated to the policies of the Mbeki government but, instead, are due to the exploitation of Africa by the West–exploitation that has occurred for centuries–why did the epidemic of AIDS only take off in South Africa in the 1990’s?

  351. #351 Mr. Natural
    November 13, 2007

    Tara, I appreciate your showing up at this stage of the thread.

    Seriously love, this is not a denialist trick; there are published EM’s of mycoplasma that are indistinguishable from the particles in the Gallo EMs of May, 1984.

    Gene

  352. #352 jspreen
    November 13, 2007

    why did the epidemic of AIDS only take off in South Africa in the 1990’s?

    Because that’s when the World Hype Organizations decided to count people who were ill (or sometimes not even) as Aids-patient according to all kinds of wild criteria.

  353. #353 carter
    November 13, 2007

    epidemic of AIDS only take off in South Africa in the 1990’s?

    Hows about looking into massive expanse of malnutrition, hunger and poverty to begin with?

    Mbeki wants something better than drug interventions based on a vague virus theroy. How about food?

  354. #354 pat
    November 13, 2007

    “If the deaths in South Africa are unrelated to the policies of the Mbeki government but, instead, are due to the exploitation of Africa by the West–exploitation that has occurred for centuries–why did the epidemic of AIDS only take off in South Africa in the 1990’s?”

    Not an easy question to answer. You are trying to force a pick between two extremes. It is not either or. Mbeki may not be very helpful in your fight against HIV but nor is the international community very helpfull either. The deaths in S. Africa are related to complex political manoeuverings happening in every corner of the planet. One of which is the very real reluctance of the west to deliver medicines (that we can well afford) with or without Mbeki in power. And, besides, the deaths are all due to disease. Policies may exacerbate a disease but it is never the cause of disease. The political smear campaign against Mbeki exacerbates the situation for all S Africans. He is the elected leader of SA, it is WITH him the world should work, not against.

    “why did the epidemic of AIDS only take off in South Africa in the 1990’s?”

    That is a very interesting question. Maybe it is a new disease that just popped up. It is notable though that HIV had the decency to wait until the end of apartheid to wreak havoc there. It really is hard to support or refute the HIV numbers in SA due to the disinterest white SA showed towards their black fellow countrymen during their rule. But many studies (one noted above by MEC) show that the theoretical death toll of the HIV/AIDS epidemic taking place there is at odds with many counter observations. Like MEC pointed out: the population growth model of SA “without AIDS” is closer to the latest SA population estimates than the population model “with AIDS”. This leads me to wonder how high off the ground this epidemic really got and if all the hype and all the hate is rational.

  355. #355 franklin
    November 13, 2007

    What study did MEC cite?

  356. #356 pat
    November 13, 2007

    Don’t get me wrong, I am not denying that people are dying faster there today than ever before but this increased mortality also corrolates with the decaying economic situation on the continent, and some people, in my humble opinion, underestimate the significance of this and too readily interpret any deaths as AIDS deaths. It use to be that poverty was the greatest sourse of human distress and ill health and somewhere along the line it became obfuscated by the phenomena of HIV causing poverty and wreaking economic destruction. HIV may worsen an already dire situation but all the ARV’s sold on credit in the world will not ever change anything for those suffering until there is a real and functioning health care system set up. it is a sad reality though that Aid funds are incompetently allocated. ARV’s are not pills really, politically they are a “bandaid”. Uganda has 1 health worker for every 22’000 citizens. The 70’000’000 credit they were given for their free ARV project, to last them until 2010 or so, already suffered its first set-back 4 months into the roll-out. The set back was a disruption on the supply side of the deal. There were no ARV’s ready for Uganda. A perfect opportunity for that TeennageMutantNinjaVirus to “morph” into something deadlier. The money the west spends in a week of war could build a nice little health system there but that does not happen; there is no political will. Mbeki or not, ARV’s distribution is always going to be adhoc there, just like the health care system, at least until we change our political will and identify the true threat to international security- Poverty.

  357. #357 franklin
    November 13, 2007

    And economic inequality justifies the president of South Africa ignoring the evidence that HIV infection is a serious health problem facing his nation?

  358. #358 pat
    November 13, 2007

    he quoted the US sensus bureau and statistics SA

    here’s the SA sensus 2007

    http://www.statssa.gov.za/Publications/CS2007Basic/CS2007Basic.pdf

    2007: 48’502’063

    the following is an obviously outdated and mistaken page opining about the opposite.
    http://www.prcdc.org/summaries/aidsinafrica/aidsinafrica.html

    “By 2003, there will be negative population growth in Botswana, South Africa and Zimbabwe. Negative population growth has never before been projected in a developing country; it is caused by a combination of high HIV prevalence and declining relatively low fertility.”

    It is 2007 and they have seen a population growth of 8% since the last cencus of 2001.

    ask MEC to dig out the US cencus bureau stuff..

  359. #359 pat
    November 13, 2007

    “And economic inequality justifies the president of South Africa ignoring the evidence that HIV infection is a serious health problem facing his nation?”

    not economic inequality, economic inability perhaps, coupled with doubts about the west’s true intentions. We didn’t give them ARV’s when they were screaming for them, do remember that.

  360. #360 pat
    November 13, 2007

    The CIA thinks S Africa has only 43,997,828 people as of 2007.
    But we all know the CIA couldn’t tell a WMD if it hit them in the face.
    They are off by 5’000’000 people. Maybe it is little wonder people think the country is being decimated.

  361. #361 Chris Noble
    November 13, 2007

    Mbeki wants something better than drug interventions based on a vague virus theroy. How about food?

    Over the last two decades the gross domestic product per capita has been steadily rising.

    If poverty is increasing it is only because there is a growing inequality in the distribution of wealth that occurred during the ANC government.

    Mbeki needs to find another scapegoat for the failure of their health system. Conspiracies involving the CIA and pharmaceutical companies are not credible.

  362. #362 pat
    November 13, 2007

    “Over the last two decades the gross domestic product per capita has been steadily rising”

    this flies right in the face of economic predictors when computing for the HIV/AIDS epidemic. We are used to faulty HIV models in the meantime though.

    “If poverty is increasing it is only because there is a growing inequality in the distribution of wealth that occurred during the ANC government.”

    You have found a phenomena that is reproduced around the world and is not unique to ANC policies. We wont even mention the inequalities under apartheid, right.

    “Mbeki needs to find another scapegoat for the failure of their health system”

    No, you need to find another scapegoat for the failures of our AID programmes and lopsided trade rules.

    “Conspiracies involving the CIA and pharmaceutical companies are not credible.”

    Do you see that Jorg? I mention the CIA getting their data backwards and Chris Noble busts out with increadible CIA conspiracy theories. It is fascinating, Chris. You are like a pavlovian attack dog. I am starting to believe you are a spambot that reacts to specific letter combinations.

  363. #364 cooler
    November 13, 2007

    “If you go to jspreen’s web page, you see that the commonality with Noreen and cooler is that they all appear to be people with no prior medical or scientific training who have become ill or had family become ill and been let down by the medical community in various ways. From jspreen’s web page:”

    Ildi,
    Wrong, I cite experts all the time like Garth and nancy nicolson phd’s, Dr. joel baseman from the NIH and Dr. Shyh Ching Lo md phd from the Army, I mean I posted a long excerpt from Lo’s pathology study above thats more solid than anything Ive ever read proving a microbes pathenogenicity in humans.

    Even after Baseman said how impressed they were with Lo’s work, inducing disease in mice/monkeys, seeing the mycoplasma in the tissues with the EM, and reccomended further funding, Fauci the murderer refused to provide a penny. Baseman said it could be involved in many other diseases. This was 1990, god knows how many people have it now and are being misdiagnosed with depression etc.

    What about all the “deniers” that are not sick like math professsor and future noble laurete Darin Brown, Serge lange etc etc, your aims at psychoanylsis are pretty weak, stick to debating the science.

  364. #365 franklin
    November 13, 2007

    Pat,

    Are you arguing that there is no AIDS crisis in S. Africa (only 14,000 deaths in 2004) or that the AIDS crisis is due to pharmaceutical companies setting antiretroviral prices out of reach of S. Africa’s health care budget (“the failures of our AID programmes and lopsided trade rules”).

  365. #366 franklin
    November 13, 2007

    Cooler,

    You mostly cite Project Day Lily–a work of fiction.

  366. #367 cooler
    November 13, 2007

    its actually a true story thats slightly fictionilized to stay out of court, too bad so many scientists disagree with you, read the reviews, including a nobel laurete, its mostly based on Lo’s work that is far from fiction, the only microbe discovered to kill/sicken every animal injected

    PRESS RELEASE
    Huntington Beach, CA
    May 27, 2006 http://www.projectdaylily.com/

    The Institute for Molecular Medicine announces that its recently self-published book Project Day Lily, is already the No. 3 quarterly royalty earning book published by Xlibris Corporation, a subsidiary of Random House. Project Day Lily is based on the events surrounding “Gulf War Syndrome” suffered by over 150,000 veterans (and tens of thousands dead) without proper acknowledgment or treatment to keep secret the origin of their illnesses.

    This is the true story of the discovery of a biological agent in veterans’ blood by two American scientists as part of a massive testing program in the military and prisons and how various academic and government employees did everything in their power to keep this information secret, including murder.

    Their discovery has allowed patients with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Fibromyalgia Syndrome, Rheumatoid Arthritis, Multiple Sclerosis and other fatiguing and autoimmune diseases to finally find an effective treatment for their conditions.

    The events described are true, and the scientific principles discussed in the book and have been documented in the authors’ publications, reports and sworn testimony to Presidential Commissions and committees of the U. S. Congress.

    Some comments on the book:

    Being a health professional for 40 years, I have always held scientific research and discovery in respect. However, since personally experiencing the ravages of a chronic Mycoplasma infection, receiving help and guidance from the Nicolsons over the past 10 years and in turn helping others, I now have a slightly different perspective. The Nicolsons are great storytellers of intrigue and menace in the scientific research world. Breaking the mold of traditional suspense novels, Project Day Lily is based on fact–many facts of which I can attest. The book is simultaneously intelligent and believable. It is intricately layered with remarkable research and detail from the opening pages to the conclusion. It is a fascinating, absorbing, eye-opening page-turner. Project Day Lily has alerted me of the danger that public policy could easily become the captive of the scientific technologically elite. I suspect that it may be happening more than any of us would want to know. And God help those of us who are unsuspecting victims!
    Sharon Briggs, M.S.N., R.N., Mycoplasma Support, Shasta CFIDS

    In “Project Day Lily” the Nicolsons tell their personal saga that is intertwined with major events and forces in recent American history. This linear narrative testifies about the strength of authors’ perceptions and convictions. It is also a story of transformation of a couple of scientists into advocates for causes that they believe in so deeply.
    Stanimir Vuk-Pavlovic, Ph.D., Professor of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, Mayo Clinic Graduate School

    This book is very compelling – pointing out the corruption of the university–governmental complex coupled with Mafia money. Every conscientious physician and scientist needs to know that following the “green” is essential to know in order to develop information that is reliable to help their research and in helping their patients.
    William J. Rea, M.D., F.A.C.S., F.A.A.E.M., Environmental Health Center – Dallas

    A great read, complex and convoluted but compulsive. Science and politics are intricately intertwined in this chonologue. The world of scientific research is shown in its reality: academic altruism and isolation of the scientists on the one hand and the political gamesmanship, enterprise and exploitiveness that is often used to achieve the funding to allow the work to continue on the other.
    Tim Roberts, Ph.D., Acting ProVice-Chancellor, Assistant Dean International, Assistant Dean Postgraduate Coursework, Faculty of Science and Information Technology
    University of Newcastle (Australia)

    I received the very first draft and read it with increasing amazement as I was going along. I knew Garth Nicolson from his days at the Salk Institute and knew he was (is) of sound mind. The implications, medical and political, of what is revealed in “Project Day Lily” are major. If you are interested in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Fibromyalgia, or the problems of our Veterans with Gulf War Syndrome, you will want to read this book, think, and wonder.
    Roger Guillemin, M.D., Ph.D., Distinguished Professor, Nobel Laureate in Medicine, The Salk Institute

    This is a saga of two researchers in pursuit of the truth who were pulled into the black hole of treacherous global affairs and politics and their excruciating struggles for survival. How many more Galileos and Darwins will have to suffer? Their chronicle keeps a reader in suspense from the beginning to the end. I cannot wait for a film version of it.
    Tae H. Ji, Ph.D., Professor of Chemistry and Molecular Biology, University of Kentucky

    Project Day Lily shatters the composed façade of academic science, exposing societal turbulence as malevolent and violent as any time in the Cold War or since. The pages seem to turn themselves. This story illustrates a time of crisis and tragedy for individuals and country so thoroughly frightening despondency and despair seem the only refuge. Yet the evil is overshadowed by the transcendent courage and steadfast determination of the main characters to push forward. Their commitment to family and integrity is inspiring and makes the battle worth fighting.
    John Casey, President and Co-Founder, Nutritional Therapeutics, Inc.

    During the first Gulf Conflict, Operation Desert Storm, nearly every level of government, the military, and the American people assumed that Iraq had completely failed to deploy or initiate the use of biological weapons. Leading up to the war, I directed the military component of a joint biological detection project with scientists from Stanford Research Institute. At the conclusion of the combat, even after being presented with evidence that suggested biological agents had indeed found their way to the battlefield, I dismissed the reports of Gulf War Illness. That is, until soldiers in my command and their families developed illnesses that could only be attributed to their service in the Gulf or their association with people and material that had been returned from Iraq. In my search for the truth, I met Dr. Garth Nicolson. He was a lone, and much maligned, voice in the quest for a cure. Project Day Lily is a riveting and profound essay on what really happened. It’s time the public knew the truth.
    Gerald Schumacher, Colonel, U.S. Army Special Forces (ret)

    I received a draft of the book Project Day Lily, and I was deeply impressed by the courage of Professor Garth Nicolson and his wife Dr. Nancy Nicolson, who were determined to uncover the mystery of the “Gulf War Syndrome”. Professor Nicolson, who is a prominent scientist, provided evidence, that the “Syndrome”, was not due to psychological effects, which caused the suffering of more than 150,000 veterans, but was the result of infection with a Mycoplasma strain, which was apparently modified genetically. As this approach contradicted the official version, the two scientists were attacked mentally and physically and had to leave their positions and to establish a new Institute–The Institute for Molecular Medicine–where they could continue their studies without interference. This book provides an interesting insight into the relationship of science and politics in the United States. It describes the experience of two devoted scientists, who did not hesitate to tell the true story about the Gulf War Syndrome. I am sure that every reader will be deeply impressed.
    Uriel Bachrach, Ph.D., Professor Emeritus, Hebrew Hadassah University, Jerusalem

  367. #368 ildi
    November 13, 2007

    So you think you’ve been debating the science, cooler? I don’t think that phrase means what you think it does. Citing experts all the time does not the scientific dialog make.

    No, like I said in my first comment, I read all these fascinating threads to figure out what makes people like you tick. You get a lot of folk wasting quite a few brain cells on you on these threads (like poor franklin); that’s got to be a big motivation.

    jspreen even admits to this: “I have nothing to say to Mr Pee Moore in private. If I send a contribution here every once in a while, it’s not to address naked assed Emperor Moore and his lackeys, but to attract some attention of people…”

    [ok, ok, that was a spot of quote-mining. jspreen actually selflessly wants save others from the evil medical baby-killing cabal. Think of the children…!]

  368. #369 franklin
    November 13, 2007

    Pat,

    One factor contributing to the remarkably low number of deaths attributed to HIV in the Stats South Africa report is discussed on page 5 of the report, under the heading: “Classification of the Causes of Death.”

    In terms of the Stats SA coding procedures and guidelines, immunosuppression was not coded as HIV, but as immunodeficiency, which has a separate ICD-10 code. There is no code for immunosuppression in the ICD-10 manuals. However, certifying officials sometimes reported the underlying cause of death as ‘acquired immune suppression’. There is no code in the ICD-10 for ‘acquired immune suppression’. In terms of the Stats SA coding procedures, this term was interpreted as HIV disease and given an HIV code (group B20-B24). If HIV was written on the form this was also coded in the HIV group, as required by the ICD-10.

    So if “immune suppression” was listed as the cause of death the case was listed as a primary immune disorder. This category of diseases includes things like congenital immune deficiencies, etc., and turns out to be the 7th leading cause of death in 2004 and 2005.

    Hmmm, what do you think? An epidemic of Di George Syndrome or maybe Adenine Deaminase Deficiency?

    Well, I guess not, because on page 45 they break down the 16,171 deaths due to “Certain Disorders Involving the Immune Mechanism,” and 98.8% are classified as “Other Immunodeficiencies” (with an additional 0.3% classified as “Other Disorders Involving the Immune Mechanism; Not Elsewhere Classified”).

    Together, the categories of HIV plus “Certain Disorders Involving the Immune Mechanism” account for more than 30,000 deaths and would constitute the third leading cause of death in 2005.

    And that still wouldn’t take into account the cases of TB in AIDS patients coded simply as TB.

    The authors of the Statistics SA report recognize that HIV is under-reported on death registrations and in the Introduction (page 2) they state that:

    This release covers mortality and causes of death broadly, and hence does not focus specifically on HIV and AIDS. It does, however, provide indirect evidence that HIV may be contributing to the increase in the level of mortality for prime-aged adults, given the increase in the number of deaths due to associated diseases.

  369. #370 John Givens
    November 13, 2007

    November 13, 2007: U.S. Sets Record in Sexual Transmitted Diseases

    This can’t be good.

    ATLANTA (AP) – More than 1 million cases of chlamydia were reported in the United States last year – the most ever reported for a sexually transmitted disease, federal health officials said Tuesday.

    “A new U.S. record,” said Dr. John M. Douglas Jr. of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

    More bad news: Gonorrhea rates are jumping again after hitting a record low, and an increasing number of cases are caused by a “superbug” version resistant to common antibiotics, federal officials said Tuesday.

    Syphilis is rising, too. The rate of congenital syphilis – which can deform or kill babies – rose for the first time in 15 years.

    So, chlamydia is up
    So, Gonorrhea is up
    So, Syphilis is up

    Record levels — germs are everywhere — kids are humping like rabbits.

    And, yet, total, complete, deafening silence on ……HIV.

    Not a solitary word. As if it didn’t exist.

  370. #371 ildi
    November 13, 2007

    See, cooler, what franklin is doing is what debating the science looks like. Well organized, clearly makes the point, appears to be properly cited… in case you were wondering.

  371. #372 cooler
    November 13, 2007

    Really could have fooled me, scroll back and read Lo’s cited pathology studies and learn something, instead of being a crank. Learn from a real scientist, not a fraud like yourself.

  372. #373 ildi
    November 13, 2007

    Fraud? Now, that’s not nice, I’ve never said I was a real scientist, and I don’t even pretend to play one on TV, like you do. But back to franklin’s points; you don’t think that is debating the science? Pity, because I thought it was very cogent and made some excellent points.

  373. #374 Molecular Entry Claw
    November 13, 2007

    Mbeki needs to find another scapegoat for the failure of their health system. Conspiracies involving the CIA and pharmaceutical companies are not credible.

    Dr. Noble, you haven’t really answered the question, so one more time, Mr. Foreign Policy Expert: why would it be incredible that the CIA is/has been involved in undermining Thabo Mbeki? I’m not saying they are, but why would it be so incredible? If somebody were to say that Prof. Moore et al in concert with forces within South Africa are trying to undermine Mbeki is that also an incredible conspiracy theory? If so maybe you can explain why the good prof. himself believes he is part of covert activities that targets “framers and shapers of events”? Is it just the Thorazine kicking in you think?

    …You’re a lightweight in the denialists’ ranks, a mere gadfly, a commentator on events, not a framer and shaper of them. We take others seriously, but not you – you, we just laugh at in your “retirement” (…)
    … We don’t care; nobody who matters takes your site seriously. But note that the information flow is one way, we won’t be revealing our plans, targets and activities to you. You’ll find out after the fact. We don’t issue warnings……..
    (John M007e)

    http://barnesworld.blogs.com/barnes_world/2007/03/the_sad_song_of.html

  374. #375 Jim
    November 14, 2007

    Cooler,
    what exactly are your credentials and why would they lead us to believe you have any competency in “debating” scientific matters?

  375. #376 notsofast
    November 14, 2007

    The scientists supporting the HIV/AIDS paradigm have failed as scientists.
    Here’s how…

    The scientists supporting the paradigm have ignored their responsibility to
    explain and demonstrate the theory to the those who question it. From day one
    there were experts objecting to the theory. These issues were never settled.
    Today, with an increasing number of experts who are not convinced, the
    scientists still do not try to justify their theory.

    Another point.

    What is evidence? Data is not evidence. Evidence gives or suggests proof
    of something. If experts are not convinced that certain data constitute
    evidence then more work needs to be done. A scientist supporting a theory
    must explain how the data makes something evident to other scientists. If
    data is not evidence to other scientists and these scientists say so, they
    are not deniers of evidence, rather they are scientists for saying so.

    John MOORE-

    I don’t understand why you do not try to convince people that the theory is
    correct. Why not gather more data? For what reasons do you not gather data
    that would convince nonconvinced experts, and then the public. I do not see
    how you can claim that you care about people at large while you neglect this
    important responsibility. I do not understand, for example, why you do not
    continue to try to convince Duesberg or try to understand his reasoning
    better. Can you explain? Given what you know how could you write to Noreen as
    you did? There are people who are healthy, people who have not died, despite
    the predictions of the model. Noreen went from sick to healthy. Here you
    have an example that the model does not predict. So, how come then do you
    forecast her future health with the predictions of a model that has already
    failed to predict her current health? Rather than tell her that she is in
    grave danger of death how come you did not tell her that there are others
    who, inexplicably, too have become healthy and have remained so? You could
    have wished her well yet you forecast her death and then you say that your
    forecast is about saving a life. Do you realize the terrible psychological
    impact these words could have on Noreen? That those words alone could cause
    her health to go from good to bad? Please explain your thinking on these
    points.

  376. #377 franklin
    November 14, 2007

    John Givens quotes from an article on STD’s and says:

    So, chlamydia is up
    So, Gonorrhea is up
    So, Syphilis is up

    Record levels — germs are everywhere — kids are humping like rabbits.

    And, yet, total, complete, deafening silence on ……HIV.

    Not a solitary word. As if it didn’t exist.

    Let’s see, why doesn’t the aticle mention HIV?

    Oh, you fogot to quote this sentence:

    The CDC releases a report each year on chlamydia, gonorrhea and syphilis, three diseases caused by sexually transmitted bacteria.

    So the article doesn’t mention HIV because it’ based on a CDC report that covers chlamydia, gonorrhea and syphilis.

    HIV get its own report, John. All to itself:

    http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/resources/reports/2005report

  377. #378 franklin
    November 14, 2007

    Notsofast,

    Do you have any evidence that John Moore’s “words alone could cause
    her health to go from good to bad?”

  378. #379 cooler
    November 14, 2007

    jim, its because I’ve got the big balls and the big heart. Experts will say anything, they used to say smoking was good for you. Besides, the science is so simple, kochs postulates etc, nevermind that many experts agree with me because I’ve got the big balls and the big heart.

    How big are your balls?

  379. #380 Chris Noble
    November 14, 2007

    Dr. Noble, you haven’t really answered the question, so one more time, Mr. Foreign Policy Expert: why would it be incredible that the CIA is/has been involved in undermining Thabo Mbeki?

    The idea that not only do the pharmceutical companies have a stranglehold on the goverment sposored research in every single country in the world (apart from South Africa) but they also control the CIA is ridiculous. Unless your name is Matthias Rath!

    Why Sarkozy and Bush Need World War III

    Nope, no frothing at the mouth conspiracy theorists!

  380. #381 Jim
    November 14, 2007

    Cooler,
    your answer stating “none” is noted.

  381. #382 cooler
    November 14, 2007

    youve just admitted you dont have any balls.

  382. #383 Jim
    November 14, 2007

    “The scientists supporting the paradigm have ignored their responsibility to
    explain and demonstrate the theory to the those who question it.”

    No they haven’t, notsofast. Scientists have continued to research HIV and publish their results in the literature. They’ve continued to report their results at meetings and respond to criticisisms voices at said meetings and in said literature. It is not up to scientists to convince the few hold outs who cling to their own past glory. Once a person has proven themselves resistant to the conclusions reached through data collection without providing their own contradicting data, there is no longer an obligation to take those people seriously.

    “From day one
    there were experts objecting to the theory. These issues were never settled.
    Today, with an increasing number of experts who are not convinced, the
    scientists still do not try to justify their theory.”

    Every paper published justifies and supports the theory. The issues were settled a long time ago and doubts settled by real scientists doing real research. Refuting an accepted theory requires contradictory data from those questioning the supporting data, a point that seems to be lost on denialists. I’d also like to know who’s joining the denialist’s ranks to make them continually say things like “an increasing number of experts who are not convinced” because I only see the same tired, refuted washed up “experts” cited time after time.

  383. #384 Tara C. Smith
    November 14, 2007

    Ball size aside, cooler, the science is far from “simple.” Even Koch’s postulates aren’t as simple as you try to play them off as. Indeed, as I and others have pointed out to you multiple times, Koch himself realized his own examples couldn’t live up to his postulates 100% of the time, and cautioned that the totality of the evidence be considered, and not his postulates alone.

  384. #385 Molecular Entry Claw
    November 14, 2007

    And does Mbeki say the pharmaceuticals control the CIA?

    I don’t know why you feel you use such strong wording as “pharmceutical companies have a stranglehold on the goverment sposored research in every single country in the world”.

    Do you not believe industries like medicine, oil, weapons have a lot of power to influence governments all over the world? Do you not believe hat if a number of these global players should happen to have shared interests it would be very difficult for any country to oppose them?

    Do you not believe that foreign aid, including medical aid is tied to the donor country’s foreign policy aims?

    Could I get a real analysis Dr. Foreign Policy Expert?

    And would you like to explain why John Moore thinks he is part of something infinitely more powerful and influential than the so called denialists, or are you just going to keep dragging in more side issues you don’t understand? either?

  385. #386 Jim
    November 14, 2007

    How old are you Cooler, 15? I’m sure you giggled like a little girl the entire time it took you to typed that response. Again, your response stating “none” is noted.

  386. #387 Chris Noble
    November 14, 2007

    And does Mbeki say the pharmaceuticals control the CIA?

    He says the pharmacetical companies are behind the conspiracy and the CIA is involved. Maybe they are just subcontracted. Maybe both the CIA and the pharmaceutical companies are controlled by the Rockefellers and the Rothschilds as Matthias Rath thinks.

    I don’t know why you feel you use such strong wording as “pharmceutical companies have a stranglehold on the goverment sposored research in every single country in the world”.

    If HIV and AIDS is all just a plot by the pharmaceutical companies to sell drugs to poor Africans then they somehow managed to subvert government sponsored research in countries across the world including Russia and China.

    That’s the problem with these conspiracy theories. You have to explain why government funded scientists all across the world are all in on it, even in China. If HIV and AIDS aren’t real then why did China eventually confront the crisis? Why not just ignore it? If it isn’t real then it should go away. Maybe China is controlled by the pharmaceutical companies too!

  387. #388 Chris Noble
    November 14, 2007

    From day one there were experts objecting to the theory. These issues were never settled. Today, with an increasing number of experts who are not convinced, the scientists still do not try to justify their theory

    There isn’t an increasing number of experts who are not convinced. There is a inverse relationship between the number of people signing the denialist list and their relevant expertise in the field.

    The list is padded out with quacks like Hulda Clark and homeopaths, acupuncturists and orgone therapists etc.

  388. #389 Chris Noble
    November 14, 2007

    I’d also like to know who’s joining the denialist’s ranks to make them continually say things like “an increasing number of experts who are not convinced” because I only see the same tired, refuted washed up “experts” cited time after time.

    They have their own list just like the scientists that dissent from Darwin, the scientists that think 911 was a conspiracy by the Bush government, the scientists that think that vaccines are evil etc.

    Their latest addition is a videographer. Not exactly an expert! And by the sound of it he is a “wild-eyed conspiracy theorist” despite the claims on the website.

    Like I told Stephen, what other lies have we been dealt???

    9/11??? Probably. Apollo Moon Landings? Very possible. Hell even FDR knew that Japan was going to attack Pearl Harbor. But nothing was done. Now is our time to stand up and not only protect our future but protect our rights as a human being. We have the right to exist whenever, whenever and HOW EVER we choose.

  389. #390 cooler
    November 14, 2007

    the exceptions to Kochs postulates are quite easy to understand as well, some microbes can be species specific. I understand that, therefore the only way to make a distiction between a harmless passenger virus and a species specific pathenogenic microbe is a carefully controlled long term study that rules out confounding factors, for example with hepatitis C you would follow people with the virus with no other risk factors such as drugs and alcohol and see if this 1/1000 cell no animal model microbe can really do what Chiron said it could do, the drug company that gave us hepatitis C, or if it was just a money making scam they created, when the true cause of hep c is just drugs and alcohol.

    If there is that long term study with hep c that rules out these confounding factors please let me know.

    Another way to see if your species specific microbe is not a passenger virus is to see it in large quantities with the EM. etc etc.

    Jim you see you can learn alot from me and my sidekick dr. shyh ching lo md phd, the military’s most decorated infectious disease pathologist, we dont need to do all these things, because mycoplasma incognitus/penetrans induces disease/ death in every animal inoculated, is visible in dying patients tissues by EM, and is found in no healthy controls. So please bow your head to your scientific elder, how many people lives have been ruined because of this microbe because of people like you, people with no balls and heart, who are mesmerized and stupified by drug company propaganda. Bow your head once again!
    eternal hugs,
    cooler

  390. #391 cooler
    November 14, 2007

    noble,
    theres margulis, pollack, maniotis, over 200 architects and engineers that are questioning 9/11 and hiv, perhaps you need to start BOWING YOUR HEAD TO YOUR SCIENTIFIC ELDERS.

    Please visit the architects for truth site to get some real intelligence in your life, not eternal woo. Please start bowing your head to your elders, and stop believing in crazy conspiracies. Loony tune.

  391. #392 pat
    November 14, 2007

    “Pat,

    Are you arguing that there is no AIDS crisis in S. Africa (only 14,000 deaths in 2004)”

    No, 30’000 is still a far cry from 356’000 but I suppose 300’000 can still be squeezed in if I start making wilder assumptions too.

    “or that the AIDS crisis is due to pharmaceutical companies setting antiretroviral prices out of reach of S. Africa’s health care budget (“the failures of our AID programmes and lopsided trade rules”). ”

    Wether there is the crisis you are talking about or not, eitherway, yes. That has done more damage overall than Mbeki in his wildest dreams.

  392. #393 pat
    November 14, 2007

    “JOHANNESBURG, Oct 6 (UPI) — South Africa’s President Thabo Mbeki has accused the Central Intelligence Agency of being part of a “conspiracy to promote the view that HIV causes AIDS,” The Mail & Guardian reported Friday.”

    I didn’t know about this but I do find it odd that the CIA would NOT update its website and undeercount SA population by 5 million.

  393. #394 Jorg
    November 14, 2007

    cooler: I must say I am a bit surprised to see Lynn Margulis on that list, but, after all, nobody has a perfect record. The number of homeopaths and lawyers there is a bit bothersome; but I really enjoyed your reference to “architects and engineers”. Those are overrepresented on the dissent from Darwin lists, too. Back when I was an undergrad, architects were generally considered to be the second lowest form of life. Who were the lowest? Well….engineers! ;) (My apologies to architects and engineers reading this: we all know that stereotypes do not apply to individuals…or do we?)

    MEC: So far the only people I see screaming and insulting others here are the deniers. Perhaps the rest of us are holding on to a wrong opinion (I doubt it), but they haven’t provided any evidence for it and ignored any evidence undermining their views. That is precisely the behaviour of a quack.

    I am sure that by saying this I open myself to a stream of invective, but whatever.

    Pat: I am well familiar with the rules of internet debate (or lack of them), having cut my teeth in the various Usenet groups–what?–15 years ago or so. I hated the idiots then; I still do. I do not happen to believe that random insults are productive at all, and I do believe that politeness in a debate can carry you quite a long way. Besides which, the rude ones seldom provide any useful information; my humble opinion is that they disqualify themselves from the get-go: I have problems listening to somebody when they are shrilling incoherently, and that kind of behaviour does not inspire me with respect for them as individuals or their POVs.

    That said, I have been known to tell miscellaneous assholes to fuck off–both online and in real life; but I would not do this in an online discussion unless I was ready to do so in reality. It takes quite a bit to piss me off. Creationists did it. Moon-landing hoaxers did it. American Maoists, global warming deniers, etc did it. HIV deniers are well on their way after my first encounter with them.

  394. #395 Chris Noble
    November 14, 2007

    I must say I am a bit surprised to see Lynn Margulis on that list, but, after all, nobody has a perfect record. The number of homeopaths and lawyers there is a bit bothersome; but I really enjoyed your reference to “architects and engineers”. Those are overrepresented on the dissent from Darwin lists, too.

    Margulis is also on the fluoride “rethinkers” list.

    End Fluoridation

    There is an amazing degree of overlap between the names on these various lists. I recognised several HIV “rethinkers” on the antifluoridation list.

    Several people are on the HIV “rethinkers” and Dissent from Darwin list most notably Phillip Johnson, the father of ID, and Johnathon Wells.

    Is there a scientists that dissent from vaccination list out there?

  395. #396 Molecular Entry Claw
    November 14, 2007

    He says the pharmacetical companies are behind the conspiracy and the CIA is involved. Maybe they are just subcontracted. Maybe both the CIA and the pharmaceutical companies are controlled by the Rockefellers and the Rothschilds as Matthias Rath thinks

    Is that your sophisticated analysis, Dr. Noble, of how colonialism, “free” market capitalism, multinational corp. incessant war etc. arise, interact and influence things globally?

    If you’d rather want to talk about Matthias Rath than Mbeki, why don’t you ask Tara to do a Matthias Rath thread? I’m sure she’ll be happy to oblige since it’s well known that inspiration has a hard time striking her.

    In the meantime, can I just get a straight answer without your rather pathetic attempts at squeezing the word “conspiracy theory” into every sentence; why is it incredible that CIA would be working to undermine Mbeki?

    That’s the problem with these conspiracy theories. You have to explain why government funded scientists all across the world are all in on it, even in China.

    No you’re the conspiracy theorist, Dr. Noble, not me. You have to explain why I need anymore than a few basic undisputed facts such as drug companies want to sell drugs, they’re not in the business of telling people to stay off the meds or spend the resources on sanitation and food.

    likewise, since you’ve mentioned it, the Bush admin and its party is not in the business of telling us not to be afraid of terrorists and terroristic germs. Do you think every intelligence analyst, every member of congress, the media, the telecom industry, the weapons manufacturers, the vaccine producers, Halliburton and their ilk, the generals, the soldiers, the whole “coalition of the willing” have been working closely together on a conspiracy to lie about WMDs and make a mess of Iraq? – Did it happen anyway?

    Do the vaccine producers get special legal exemptions and guaranteed profits under the new bio-terror laws and the on and off H5N1 fright? Do the tele companies get equally sweet deals and legal amnesty for breaking the law because of the war on terror? etc. etc. etc. etc….

    Why would I need a “conspiracy theory” to explain what’s happening with HIV, when it’s plainly not needed to explain many similar and undisputed occurrences in the world of politics and business?

  396. #397 pat
    November 14, 2007

    What Chris noble calls conspiracy theories other know as “business as usual”. For an indepth look at the magnitude of “business as usual” I recommend “The Assault on Reason” as a startig point.

  397. #398 pat
    November 14, 2007

    “So far the only people I see screaming and insulting others here are the deniers.”

    funny, I see way more. Maybe my screen resolution is better than yours.

    “Perhaps the rest of us are holding on to a wrong opinion (I doubt it), but they haven’t provided any evidence for it and ignored any evidence undermining their views. That is precisely the behaviour of a quack.”

    You doubt? That is good but why are other doubters quacks. I doubt and I am a quack. How does that work? You are actually defining quacks as “people I disagree with”. If this is your first brush with “denialists”; how much do you actually think you KNOW?
    I venture you are picking sides by he arbitrary use of who’s a “denialist” and who isn’t. Like they even agree amongst themselves.

  398. #399 pat
    November 14, 2007

    “There is an amazing degree of overlap between the names on these various lists. I recognised several HIV “rethinkers” on the antifluoridation list.

    Several people are on the HIV “rethinkers” and Dissent from Darwin list most notably Phillip Johnson, the father of ID, and Johnathon Wells.

    Is there a scientists that dissent from vaccination list out there?”

    Chris has discovered “overlap”.

  399. #400 Chris Noble
    November 14, 2007

    In the meantime, can I just get a straight answer without your rather pathetic attempts at squeezing the word “conspiracy theory” into every sentence; why is it incredible that CIA would be working to undermine Mbeki?

    What is believable about the idea? Why would the CIA want to undermine Mbeki? To increase the profits of the pharmaceutical companies?

    What connection is there between the CIA and the pharmaceutical companies?

    Anthrax Attacks Linked to CIA and Drug Industry?

    What exactly was the CIA supposed to have done anyway? Infected ANC members with HIV via stealth darts? Put mind control drugs in the water at the presidential office?

    Mbeki never makes it clear exactly what the CIA was supposedly doing except that they were working together with the WTO, international financial organizations and the drug companies to undermine him. If this doesn’t sound like a classic paranoid conspiracy theory then I don’t know what does.

    On a side note Rasnick apparently thinks that SARS was a Bush invention to tackle the growing Chinese economy.

    SARS as economic warfare

    Bush is preoccupied with war, terrorism, and getting re-elected. I don’t think he has either the inclination or the talent to deal with economic issues. Lacking the energy and imagination to rebuild the US economy, I think the Bush administration invented SARS in order to cool down the rapidly growing Asian economies–especially China.

    But remember the HIV “rethinkers” are not wild-eyed conspiracy theorists!

  400. #401 Rezaf
    November 14, 2007

    Dr. Tara Smith,

    This particular thread caught my eye because in it I came to be aware of the so-called denialist movement. Until very recently, I never thought that such estabilished fact such as HIV being the cause of AIDS could be subject of so much dissent.
    Being a chemist, and thus, a scientist, and thus, with a natural curiosity over all things amazing, I also read what the denialist has to say about this. Though you consistently accuse them of cherry-picking and denialism, they do raise some valid points. One of which is the usefulness of the highly sensitive HIV ELISA tests.
    Being a layman in terms of medical science knowledge, say immunology, I don’t really know much about the technique of immunoassays, namely ELISA. So I used the quickest tool of readily-available source of knowledge: The WIKIPEDIA.
    I searched ELISA and antibody definitions. This is what I found on how to perform such test.

    “Performing an ELISA involves at least one antibody with specificity for a particular antigen. The sample with an unknown amount of antigen is immobilized on a solid support (usually a polystyrene microtiter plate) either non-specifically (via adsorption to the surface) or specifically (via capture by another antibody specific to the same antigen, in a “sandwich” ELISA). After the antigen is immobilized the detection antibody is added, forming a complex with the antigen. The detection antibody can be covalently linked to an enzyme, or can itself be detected by a secondary antibody which is linked to an enzyme through bioconjugation. Between each step the plate is typically washed with a mild detergent solution to remove any proteins or antibodies that are not specifically bound. After the final wash step the plate is developed by adding an enzymatic substrate to produce a visible signal, which indicates the quantity of antigen in the sample. Older ELISAs utilize chromogenic substrates, though newer assays employ fluorogenic substrates with much higher sensitivity.”
    “Because the ELISA can be performed to evaluate either the presence of antigen or the presence of antibody in a sample, it is a useful tool both for determining serum antibody concentrations (such as with the HIV test[1] or West Nile Virus) and also for detecting the presence of antigen. It has also found applications in the food industry in detecting potential food allergens such as milk, peanuts, walnuts, almonds, and eggs. The ELISA test, or the enzyme immunoassay (EIA), was the first screening test commonly employed for HIV. It has a high sensitivity.In an ELISA test, a person’s serum is diluted 400-fold and applied to a plate to which HIV antigens have been attached. If antibodies to HIV are present in the serum, they may bind to these HIV antigens. The plate is then washed to remove all other components of the serum. A specially prepared “secondary antibody” — an antibody that binds to human antibodies — is then applied to the plate, followed by another wash. This secondary antibody is chemically linked in advance to an enzyme. Thus the plate will contain enzyme in proportion to the amount of secondary antibody bound to the plate. A substrate for the enzyme is applied, and catalysis by the enzyme leads to a change in color or fluorescence. ELISA results are reported as a number; the most controversial aspect of this test is determining the “cut-off” point between a positive and negative result.”

    And now for the antibody definitions.

    “Antibodies (also known as immunoglobulins) are proteins that are found in blood or other bodily fluids of vertebrates, and are used by the immune system to identify and neutralize foreign objects, such as bacteria and viruses. They are made of a few basic structural units called chains; each antibody has two large heavy chains and two small light chains. Antibodies are produced by a kind of white blood cell called a B cell. There are several different types of antibody heavy chain, and several different kinds of antibodies, which are grouped into different isotypes based on which heavy chain they possess. Five different antibody isotypes are known in mammals, which perform different roles, and help direct the appropriate immune response for each different type of foreign object they encounter.”

    What I want is the composition of the binding section of the antibody:

    “Although the general structure of all antibodies is very similar, a small region at the tip of the protein is extremely variable, allowing millions of antibodies with slightly different tip structures to exist. Each of these variants can bind to a different target, known as an antigen.”
    “This region of the antibody is called the Fab (fragment, antigen binding) region. It is composed of one constant and one variable domain from each heavy and light chain of the antibody. The paratope is shaped at the amino terminal end of the antibody monomer by the variable domains from the heavy and light chains.”

    And finally I searched for antigen:

    “Antigens are usually proteins or polysaccharides. This includes parts (coats, capsules, cell walls, flagella, fimbrae, and toxins) of bacteria, viruses, and other microorganisms. Lipids and nucleic acids are antigenic only when combined with proteins and polysaccharides. Non-microbial exogenous (non-self) antigens can include pollen, egg white, and proteins from transplanted tissues and organs or on the surface of transfused blood cells.”

    This is where I ask you, Dr. Smith, the following:

    The technique:

    (1)-“Between each step the plate is typically washed with a mild detergent solution to remove any proteins or antibodies that are not specifically bound. After the final wash step the plate is developed by adding an enzymatic substrate to produce a visible signal, which indicates the quantity of antigen in the sample.”

    So this mild detergent recognizes the desired anti-hiv/hiv-antigen complex intact, and removes unwanted complexes like anti-flu/hiv-antigen for example? How is that possible?

    (2)-“In an ELISA test, a person’s serum is diluted 400-fold and applied to a plate to which HIV antigens have been attached.”

    To dilute 400-fold an already and naturally diluted sample is increasing the effect of associated error to any given reading. In such small concentrations, any contaminant can have a dramatic effect. And being a very sensitive technique doen’t help any further. It just just makes it a little too prone to erroneous readings, don’t you think? And who sets the limit for HIV-positive readings? Is it arbitrary? Or is there a single verified standard value?

    As for the chemical aspect of selectivity:

    (1)- “This region of the antibody is called the Fab (fragment, antigen binding) region. It is composed of one constant and one variable domain from each heavy and light chain of the antibody. The paratope is shaped at the amino terminal end of the antibody monomer by the variable domains from the heavy and light chains.”
    “Antigens are usually proteins or polysaccharides.”

    The amino terminal end is usually R-NH2. These can condense with terminal RCOOH of proteins, RCOH or RCOR’ of glycosides. Any organic chemist knows that primary and secondary amines react readily with aldehydes and ketones to yield schiff bases (RR’C=NR”R”’). In fact, this is why sugars are so damaging to diabetic people. Can you tell me then, how does an antibody tells the difference from flu or hiv antigen terminal ends? I know that there is some specificity to antibodies, this is why normal cells are safe. Mainly because they lack the terminal ends that react with home-made antibodies. But to which degree is there specificity to any given antigen?

    (2)- Few simple questions really. If HIV evades the immune system (mutates and changes envelope), why are people tested with the same constant viral glycoproteins?
    If HIV evades the immune system (mutates and changes envelope), shouldn’t all tests be negative in the first place (inability to recognize invader?).
    If HIV evades the immune system (mutates and changes envelope), and a positive test means that not does only the virus maintains certain glycoproteins constants and the body is able to recognize the invader, shouldn’t it be considered a sign of protection, as in any other disease?
    And being a recognizable invader ( thus disposable of) why does it still succeed in evading and destroying the immune system that can clearly see that hostile invader?

    I thank you in advance for for explaining me these set of doubts.

    Regards,
    Adão (Rezaf).

  401. #402 pat
    November 14, 2007

    “But remember the HIV “rethinkers” are not wild-eyed conspiracy theorists!”

    We know by now that you are a simpleton and your modus is to find a real nut and superimpose them over everyone else.

    “Mbeki never makes it clear exactly what the CIA was supposedly doing”

    Only the CIA knows exactly what they are doing. Do you know what they are doing? You scoff at Mbeki but bring no evidence whatsoever. The CIA believes the population of SA stands today at 43 million. That is 5 million bellow fact. Somebody ought to correct those denialists. The CIA have given us plenty of insanity in the past. For you to brush all off as “nutty conspiracy” with a flick ouf your wrist demonstrates extreme naivete…but then again you are paid to spread such nonsense.

    Do read “The Assault on Reason”. What you dismiss as unbelievable “conspiracy” theories is in fact business as usual. Read about Bush’s health plan and how the pharma industry designed it and then tell me they are not capable of wrongdoing in Africa and it is all unbelievable.

  402. #403 pat
    November 14, 2007

    “What exactly was the CIA supposed to have done anyway? Infected ANC members with HIV via stealth darts? Put mind control drugs in the water at the presidential office?”

    you read too much sci-fi. It takes much less to “undermine” Mbeki. All it takes is a few assholes like you and a propaganda machine and the rest is history. Sorry to bring this up but how do you think Nazis got the ball rolling? With mind control drugs or spiked umbrella tips? No, just one little lie after another. This is how easy a conspiracy is in Goerings own words

    “It is natural for the common people to not want war but, after all, it is a country’s leaders who determine policy and it is an easy matter to convince the people. Whether they have a voice or not, the people can always be made to do what their rulers wish. It’s easy. All you have to do is tell them they are under attack and condemn the pacifists for their lack of patriotism and for exposing their country to danger”

  403. #404 noreen
    November 14, 2007

    Unfortunately, the number one enemy to society is complaency. It is too easy to soak information in via our tv sets and newspapers without ever having to think for ourself. We listen to news organizations who are slanted to right and to the left, yet they skim over the real stories due to political correctness. I bet if a poll was taken about HIV, it would be sad what the average person on the street believes. They think that it is a boogyman dealing death at every turn. They invision the “look” of Rock Hudson and are scared of it, that’s why it has been so easy to sway people into believing HIV causes AIDS without one epidemiology study.

    P.S. You might want to look up the health effects of fluoride.

  404. #405 apy
    November 14, 2007

    I’m sure you can tell us all about how easy it is to soak up misinformation noreen. I do recall you pasting a whole ton of complete lies from denialist websites here under the assumption it was valid.

    Bill Clinton pardoned Gallo
    ARVs attack OIs

    off the top of my head

  405. #406 Jim
    November 14, 2007

    “that’s why it has been so easy to sway people into believing HIV causes AIDS without one epidemiology study.”

    This is blatantly untrue Noreen. Numerous studies have been posted here studying a variety of cohorts in a variety of locations. Do you read them? Do you even read other peoples posts? Or do you just come here, type something (usually the same refuted lies over and over) and ignore the rest?

  406. #407 Jorg
    November 14, 2007

    Pat wrote: ‘You are actually defining quacks as “people I disagree with”‘

    Huh? I said those that ignore the evidence thrown at them and do not provide any of their own besides wild assertions. I am sorry, but all the points raised *against* HIV as the causative agent have been dealt with and refuted; the number of studies supporting the HIV “hypothesis” is quite large; and all the opponents can say about them is either that this isn’t “real” evidence or mutter darkly about conspiracies, conflicts of interest and such. That is exactly quackery, anti-science and precisely the tactics of creationists (and moon-landing, 9/11 etc hoaxers).

    Granted, several of the “mainstream” people on this thread have not been exactly gracious. Is it because they have dealt with you before? As I have mentioned, eventually one gets tired of unrelenting illogic and lack of real argument. You may claim that that is exactly how you feel too, but I repeat, I haven’t seen anything that would support your point of view in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. And none of the “mainstreamers’ even approach the levels of rhetoric and insult of the likes of Geiger or MEC.

  407. #408 John Moore
    November 14, 2007

    Jorg, when you say re the denilaists “Is it because they (HIV/AIDS scientists) have dealt with you before? As I have mentioned, eventually one gets tired of unrelenting illogic and lack of real argument.” you summarize the situation very well.

    The denialists invariably have no understanding whatsoever of the science on which they attempt to comment and question (one has only to go back through some of the howlers on this string, errors and misconceptions that would shame a High School student to see how laughable their knowledge is: “TB is the recovery phase of lung cancer”; SIV is a much larger organism than HIV”; an E.M. of mycoplasma looks exactly the same as one of a retrovirus, etc, etc).

    Whenever properly scientists such as Chris Noble take the trouble to make informed postings on the underlying science, the denialists simply refuse to take what is said seriously. Instead, they dismiss the science as the product of a conspiracy, or they focus down and in on some trivial error in a paper, or a minor inconsistency with another study, and use their “discoveries” to assert that the entire peer-reviewed scientific literature on HIV/AIDS is flawed (and of course is part of a gigantic conspiracy). This is a tactic akin to saying that because Shakespeare made a spelling mistake in “As you like it”, the entire body of his collected works is meaningless rubbish that was paid for by Queen Elizabeth I as part of a system intended to control the peasantry and enrich her courtiers.

    The denialists then ask the same questions over and over again, or repeat the same lies ad nauseam, in a parody of the classic “American in Paris” approach to communication. If you don’t understand, just shout louder.

    The denialists are also absurdly over-simplistic. They invariably clog up strings like this with demands like: Tell me what single paper proves HIV causes AIDS. That would be akin to asking a NASA scientist for the “single paper that tells me how to make a space rocket that can fly me to the moon”.

    The denialists then resort to abuse and threats, libels and general nastiness whenever anyone stands up to them.

    Oh, and did I say they are all conspiracy theorists who believe that scientists and physicians are part of some gigantic governmental system aimed at controlling theor lives?

    This would all be laughable, except for one central point: AIDS denialism does actually kill real people in the real world (see http://www.AIDSTruth.org for just a few examples). The moon-landing nuts, the 9/11 conspiracy loonies, the ID/creationism zealots differ from the AIDS denialists in this critical regard. This is why some of us fight AIDS denialists, not on the Blogs, but in the real world, to destroy their ability to cause yet more deaths in South Africa and elsewhere. And it’s why we never “debate” them, because to do so would acknowledge that their position has any intellectual or moral merit. It doesn’t, it’s merely ‘Deadly Quackery’, as my colleague Nicoli Nattrass and I wrote in the New York Times last year (of course, the denialists took the publication of that article as yet more evidence of a massive conspiracy, this one involving the media as well).

  408. #409 John Moore
    November 14, 2007

    Franklin, re your question about whether “Notsofast” has any evidence for his comment: “Do you realize the terrible psychological impact these words could have on Noreen? That those words alone could cause her health to go from good to bad?”

    Note that this silly comment fits the denialists’ standard modus operandi of blaming every illness or death among them as being caused by something other than AIDS (see the dead denialists list on http://www.aidstruth.org for some classic examples of personal denial in practice). So I think we can expect to see the denialists ascribing any future decline in Noreen’s health to what was written on a Blog. In a similar vein, Celia Farber has written words to the effect that Christine Maggiore is now suffering from a voodoo hex put upon her by me and other AIDS professionals, so any future decline in her health will have that as its causation. This kind of nonsense is of course entirely consistent with Jan Spreen’s rejection of the germ theory of disease. There are no pathogenic organisms in the world of the AIDS denialists, disease and death is all down to AIDS scientists sticking pins in clay figurines and casting them into the stove.

    Is it any wonder that AIDS professionals don’t take these people seriously, other than in our attempts to stop them killing other people via dissemination of their pseudoscientific, conspiracy theory-riddled nonsense?

  409. #410 cooler
    November 14, 2007

    The turkey of the millenium is back,no evidence, just a pathetic attempt at psychoanaylisis as usual.

    He claims to prove a microbe patheongenicity in humans you cant do it in a serious original papers, koch did it, Shyh ching Lo did it, and if you claim you microbe is species specific, not visible by EM, and want to keep extending your window period to 12 years when no one gets sick, you NEED conduct a long term study looking at people that rules out confounding factors such as drugs, alcohol, mycoplasmas, severe mental illness, azt. to see if they get sick, or else any harmless passenger virus can be said to cause disease.

    Please send me these studies for hiv, hpv and heptitis c. I guess they dont exist, because I cant find it on AIDS truth.

    The people that do this shouldnt be conspiracy wackjobs that think the government can’t tell a lie, but by independent scientists not tied to the industry. So Moore’s “rocket ship” analogy makes no sense, but what else would you expect from a scientific quackjob?

  410. #411 pat
    November 14, 2007

    “That is exactly quackery, anti-science and precisely the tactics of creationists (and moon-landing, 9/11 etc hoaxers).”

    I am none of these things

    “As I have mentioned, eventually one gets tired of unrelenting illogic and lack of real argument”

    That I can understand coming from people who are not in the business of education but I regret that trait in scientists who practically all double as university professors. I can understand that Chris doesn’t believe he can convince Maggiore of anything but that is NOT THE POINT (and that is my point). In all debates, wether you’re tired of it or not, there is an audience waiting and the audience is never the same. I have never seen a math teacher flip out at his students for asking questions about formula that was settled 2000 years ago. They still patiently teach day in day out. I fear that with this attitude of “been there been that” doesn’t help anyone who is new to the problem. Someone has to step up and do the education. Maybe it is my fault and thought that Tara and the likes would be more interested on maintaining informative sites instead of sites where the only postings that gather interest are “denialist” threads that attack the integrity of individuals instead of their faulty ideas. Tara is a professor for god’s sake! oh, no, she’s “only” an assistant. Well, whatever. In the meantime Maggiore is out there in the public organizing meetings and whatnotelse and no one is offering counter evidence…because they are tired.

    “Is it because they have dealt with you before? ”

    Oh, yes they have. They even have names for me:

    -Ueberpat (for saying “Schubladendenken”)
    -fucking moron (for mistaking one of my posts for medical advice)
    -scumbag (for supposedly murdering Noreen by thought infection)
    -Christine Maggiore (JP Moore,or someone just as immature it appears, planted that bit of misinformation while posting under MEC’s moniker in the hopes of provoking more disgust towards me than would otherwise be the case).
    -murderer (again for murdering Noreen by thought infection),
    etc..

    and finally the must have,

    -denialist

    “And none of the “mainstreamers’ even approach the levels of rhetoric and insult of the likes of Geiger or MEC.”

    Perhaps but nasty-stupid-immature is not a beauty contest I want to see scientists getting down with. It belittles the trust we MUST have in them. I am one that bases most of his doubts on the behavior of our leading HIV/AIDS public relations officers, you know, Moore-Bergman-Weinberg etc… I don’t need to know anything about what’s going on beyond my door to worry about the following statements these three stooges made:

    -Some AIDS denialists work in bona fide universities. Some even teach students. If this happens in your neighborhood ask the university authorities why they allow this and then write about it” (3).- Moore (chills questioning in all sciences)

    -“Science and health journalists should talk to the editorial desk and letters editors and vice versa to ensure that AIDS denialist letters are spotted on arrival and spiked, not published” (3).- Moore (censorship; that Moore is insulting this Moore’s intelligence and that of everyone else in the public)

    -“A few of the AIDS denialists are scientists whose careers fizzled out; but others are zealots with extreme political views (both on the far-right and the far-left) who find AIDS denialism politically convenient; and some are deeply troubled individuals with disturbing behavior patterns who deserve pity and professional help “-Moore (he means contempt. Again treating his audience as stupid goats).

    -“AIDS science is indeed in a war with the AIDS denialists, and the denialist leadership is indeed being targeted, not by violence or by threats of violence, but by legal and moral methods intended to destroy their ability to influence vulnerable people who have been persuaded to make choices that damage their health and the health of others. It will take time to defeat all the denialist leadership, but it’s being done (as some of them have already found out) and, in the end, science and morality will crush pseudoscience and evil.”-Moore (there is just no taking this seriously. People who have never heard of “HIV deniers” will be baffled by the absurdity of this statement, with the exception of the white House War Mongers Club perhaps. Seriously.)

    -“we shall fight on the beaches,
    we shall fight on the landing grounds,
    we shall fight in the fields and in the streets,
    we shall fight in the hills;
    we shall never surrender.” (this he knows not to do. This belittles a real war)

    -“Our lawmakers need to enact legislation to put appropriate limits on such irresponsible expression and to counter the ongoing damage perpetrated by denialists.”- Weinberg, Moore (again advocating vague but scary sensorship)

    -“As far as I’m concerned, and I hope this view is adequately
    represented, those who attempt to dispel the notion that HIV is the cause of AIDS
    are perpetrators of death. And I would very much for one like to see the
    Constitution of the United States and similar countries have some means in place
    that we can charge people who are responsible for endangering public health
    with charges of endangerment and bring them up on trial. I think that people like
    Peter Duesberg belong in jail.”-Wainberg (self-explaning no-no)

    -“This fact and all the other available evidence strongly indicate that Maggiore was never infected with HIV, and she herself emphasizes the term “positive” and avoids saying she is infected or has the virus, allowing others to draw that erroneous conclusion. Most people would be thrilled to learn they were uninfected, but Maggiore was unwilling to give up the spotlight. This HIV pretender twisted her good health and the marginal incidence of false positives into a lucrative new racket–selling HIV denialism and bragging about her good life “without pharmaceutical treatments or fear of AIDS.” But of course Maggiore has no “fear of AIDS”–she doesn’t have HIV.”
    – Bergmann (obviously gratuitous slander in light of recent developments).

    I don’t care how much venom, nonsense and out right fabrications come out of the mouths or off the keyboards of “trolls” or whatever they are called but I do very much mind when the people I should be differing to, make such obviously crazy, slanderous, and politically dangerous statements. My family comes from the craziest dictatorship the world has ever seen and I twitch in horror and anger when I hear people toss around such dangerous ideas so they can temporarily relieve their emotional imbalances and professional frustrations.

    The funny thing is they can’t figure out what I am in denial of; they just hope people ASS-U-ME I am denying HIV/AIDS, gravity, creationism, holocaust…and therefore AM by default all those things listed.

    Although I personally think it is lame, perhaps a disclaimer is in order.

    …naaah, fukkit. I don’t have to prove that I am not in denial of whatever it is people want me to be in denial of.

  411. #412 pat
    November 14, 2007

    “Oh, and did I say they are all conspiracy theorists who believe that scientists and physicians are part of some gigantic governmental system aimed at controlling theor lives?”- Moore

    Funny you’d say that, I was just writing about your side-kick Wainberg. Here it is again:

    “-“As far as I’m concerned, and I hope this view is adequately
    represented, those who attempt to dispel the notion that HIV is the cause of AIDS
    are perpetrators of death. And I would very much for one like to see the
    Constitution of the United States and similar countries have some means in place
    that we can charge people who are responsible for endangering public health
    with charges of endangerment and bring them up on trial. I think that people like
    Peter Duesberg belong in jail.”-Wainberg

  412. #413 pat
    November 14, 2007

    “And it’s why we never “debate” them, because to do so would acknowledge that their position has any intellectual or moral merit”

    No, no, no Mr Moore. All this does is deny the audience any intellectual or moral merit.

    And you teach…

  413. #414 cooler
    November 14, 2007

    Funny you idiots mock Margulis for opposing fluoride, theres another science blogger named the angrytoxicologist that wrote me a long message what a sham flouride is, of all the bloggers, hes the most qualified on the subject, and as usual all you quacks do is resort to name calling, this is what he wrote me on his blog
    Yes , I spent some time looking for the original scientific paper that said toothpaste w/ fluoride was much more effective than ordinary toothpaste w/o flouride, does this paper exist?

    the lack of of original papers proving some things that everyone believes to be true is strange. Its like when nobel prize winner Kary Mullis Kept asking people for a reference for the statement “hiv causes aids” and no one could give it to him. Where are the original scientific papers from the 30’s that showed it was ok to take thimerosol?

    Im not saying these things are not true, about hiv/fluoride/thimerosols safety but you have to wonder the reason everyone beleives something has much less to do with science and a lot more to do with groupthink and thought control.

    Posted by: cooler | July 26, 2007 11:58 PM

    Cooler, you hit upon a rather sensitive subject. The original trial is the Newburgh trial (1956 published in the Journal of the American Dental association). It has since been found to have many problems that largely make the trial invalid. More interesting about the history of that study was that many of the people involved with the study have some shady pasts (a lot of this was revealed in the 90s when a lot of DoD papers from the WWII period were released). A man largely behind it all Harold Hodge (generally considered the dean of toxicology in the US) was working with the Manhattan project to keep it going. A big problem with producing all the aluminum and the uranium that was needed for the war and the manhattan project was that it produced massive amounts of fluoride contamination. The first problems were in NJ where the peach crops starting dying and then the cows got crippled. The farmers starting getting sick and it turned out they had blood F levels about 31X what the average person has. They waited till the war was over (for patriotic reasons? I’m not sure), then they sued DuPont and the Manhattan project for the pollution. One of main things that they used as evidence was the mottling of their teeth (fluorosis). Hodge was dispatched by the Manhattan project to take care of it. He concluded that the mottleing could be due to natural fluoride in the water and therefore the farmers couldn’t say it was the war project. The FDA was about to ban food from NJ due to high fluoride content and DuPont and the DoD were very worried about the public realations problem this would cause (A manhattan project captian talked to the FDA food guy and nothing was banned). Not wrongly worried either, their ability to produce uranium would have been severly hampered if they had to make sure they weren’t spewing HF in the air (judge this how ever you like but during war time many decisions are made that may have seemed like good risk/benefit ratios that no longer applied once the war is over but it was too hard to back out and say this is no longer right). Hodge wrote a Colonel in the program “Would there be any use in making attempts to counter act the fear of fluoride…through lectures on F toxicology and perhaps the usefulness of F in tooth heath?” This is darkly funny in a way since one of they main complaints was tooth mottleing (still under debate as to whether this can be called an ‘adverse’ effect; the NRC does not consider it to be adverse, only cosmetic).

    The conference that thought up the study was supported by Manhattan Project (secretly at the time) money and concieved to see if there were non-dental health effects with the exposure to fluoride (participants were not told of the purpose). It has been suggested that they also censored the data but it’s hard to find out because a 1994 presidental commission couldn’t get the secret cold war documents (I know, crazy, huh?). Also interestingly, one of the Drs (Joe Howland) that drew the blood from the Rochester residents was a chief of Manhattan Project investigations for information on the health effects of bomb project materials. He had dosed at least one person with plutonium to see the effects (the guy was chosen at random in a Oak Ridge hospital – he had gotten in a car accident that landed him in the hospital and wasn’t told what was being done to him). This human experimentation also came out in the 90s papers.

    Not that this says much about the science of the safety of fluoride but it does leave an awful bad taste in ones mouth.

    How did Hodge get the idea to talk about the good effects of F on teeth? In 1948 a paper performed by the Manhattan project at the suggestion of Hodge was published in the Journal of the American Dental Association showing that workers who worked with fluoride had less cavaties. Original versions of the studies were found in the files of the Manhattan Project’s Medical Section concluded that fluoride did not prevent cavaties and in addition the “teeth seemed to be deteriorating”. A second study on workers in Cleveland (where two workers had died due to fluoride and the pollution was so bad the FBI was called in) was the one published. A look at the secret version shows how the paper could say there were less caries; the men exposed to fluoride hardly had any teeth. Almost sad enough to be funny.

    Posted by: angrytoxicologist | July 27, 2007 9:52 AM

  414. #415 Tara C. Smith
    November 14, 2007

    I have never seen a math teacher flip out at his students for asking questions about formula that was settled 2000 years ago. They still patiently teach day in day out.

    Not analagous. A better scene would be a student arguing with the teacher about a calculus problem that was settled years ago, when the student only has a 5th grade education in math and isn’t concerned about learning more–just asking for the “one paper” where this was all settled. Oh, and then telling the math teacher that there is a list of hundreds of others who disagree with him, even though many of those have no background in math either. And then calling the math teacher homophobic and racist because he teaches math the way he does. Oh, and then having that student call the principal and try to get the teacher fired.

    Yes, I can’t imagine why such a person would ever lose patience.

    I fear that with this attitude of “been there been that” doesn’t help anyone who is new to the problem. Someone has to step up and do the education.

    pat, that’s been done. Again, a difference with your scenario is that the math teacher has a small classroom of students he’s responsible for, whereas you’re asking HIV researchers to be responsible for answering every question from, well, everyone everywhere. It’s not possible. That’s why they’ve put together fact sheets such as this one to answer the most basic questions people have–yet you get responses like Geiger’s arguing that it’s “not peer-reviewed” and therefore dismissing it with a wave.

    As for me, I’m happy to discuss the issues with anyone, but I also wouldn’t take a stage with Maggiore (or Dembski, or Behe, etc.) to suggest to the audience there’s any “debate” about HIV science or evolutionary biology. If people really want answers, a debate format isn’t the way to get them.

  415. #416 pat
    November 14, 2007

    Tar,

    You run your blog the way you like and if readers here get their dose of crass commentary the need then fine. I just fear you end up insulting quite a few of your readers “in transit”.

    “Oh, and then having that student call the principal and try to get the teacher fired.”

    I know, Bialy tried that one with you and Moore tries that one on everyone as a matter of stated policy (see above). In the outside world we recognize that behavior as idiotic.

    “And then calling the math teacher homophobic and racist because he teaches math the way he does”

    I know what you mean, Moore was called a faggot and Moore wished Bialy a happy death.

    In the outside world we call that babbling old fruit.

    “That’s why they’ve put together fact sheets such as this one”

    In the outside world we call that a flier.

    “As for me, I’m happy to discuss the issues with anyone, but I also wouldn’t take a stage with Maggiore (or Dembski, or Behe, etc.) to suggest to the audience there’s any “debate” about HIV science or evolutionary biology. If people really want answers, a debate format isn’t the way to get them.”

    I am afraid you don’t get it either. Would you take a stage with Duesberg? I am sorry but if Duesberg showed up and no one elde did on the grounds that there is “nothing to debate”, I would take personal offense at that and I would stick around and listen to the one guy who had the decency to stay and not devalue my “intellectual and moral merits”.

    “If people really want answers, a debate format isn’t the way to get them.”

    Are you implying the format is the flyer? That is fine by me but in the meantime these people are out there spreading their “misinformation” unchallenged. “War on Denial” is your baby not mine and it is dead on arrival just like “War on Drugs” was. Ditto “War on Poverty”, “War on Obesity”, “War on Crime” and the mother of all still-births “War on Terror”.

  416. #417 pat
    November 14, 2007

    *TarA, typo…not stealth ad hominem

  417. #418 pat
    November 14, 2007

    “Yes, I can’t imagine why such a person would ever lose patience.”

    The math scenario is stil salvagable. I would be sitting in the back of the class somewhere and I would be observing it all. I would see the retarded pupil and then watch in utter amazement as my professor self destructs in uncontrolable rage, screaming for security and a noose. I would go home and say: “dad, I want to go to another school, these people freak me out!”

  418. #419 cooler
    November 14, 2007

    “Series of original papers”, mild correction to my brillaint post above

  419. #420 John Moore
    November 14, 2007

    Pat, as usual, has his facts wrong when he (or she) states: “Moore was called a faggot and Moore wished Bialy a happy death”. Neither sub-clause is true. Bialy never called me “a faggot” (at least I don’t think he did, he called me so many things that I may have forgotten some of the list of diatribes). What Bialy did do was call an HIV-infected gay man who disagreed with him on his Blog “a faggot” (inter alia). And I have never “wished Bialy a happy death”, I merely noted recently that his Blog went inactive soon after he announced to his fellow AIDS denialists that he had terminal kidney cancer (or words to that effect). Stating the facts is what scientists do; twisting them is what the denialists do.

  420. #421 Brian Foley
    November 14, 2007

    Pat,

    I don’t see Chris Noble, John Moore, or anyone else self destructing in uncontrollable rage at one innocent question. Quite the contrary, they display unusual patience at refuting the same tired lies over and over.

  421. #422 pat
    November 14, 2007

    Sorry to keep on and on but it keeps on giving and giving.

    “She [Maggiore] has since had two children, now three and seven years old, whom she boasted to Scheff “have never been tested. … They don’t take AIDS drugs. And they’re not in the least bit sick.” But of course Maggiore didn’t want them to be tested: she knows that they are not at risk and that their being uninfected would lead people to question her own status. And of course they don’t take “AIDS drugs”–they don’t have HIV or AIDS.
    Christine Maggiore isn’t living proof that HIV doesn’t cause AIDS; she’s just another lying AIDS profiteer, exploiting the real fears of those who actually are infected with HIV and the real suffering of those living with AIDS to get public attention, sell books and pick up well-paid speaking gigs. This might matter less if she wasn’t telling parents and caregivers of children who really are HIV-infected to take the kids off difficult but life-saving antivirals. Maggiore has never had to make agonizing treatment decisions for herself or for her children.” -Bergman

    Could a leading health advocate get it this ass-backwards and equally slanderous?

    YES! She is co- editor of…hold tight…aidsTHRUTH!
    Dr. Jeanne Bergman, The Center for HIV Law and Policy in New York City
    http://www.aidstruth.org/about.php

    It is insane the flip-flopping this Bergman gets away with and I am supposed to differ to this medical authority? I opt out. You can fight this insane denial war however you like. I for one won’t and cannot cover for it. Not at this cost. In the mean time I am only too happy supporting the individual rights of families like Maggiore’s against invasions orchestrated by such fanatical lunatics that would have us surrender our basic rights without a question allowed.

  422. #423 pat
    November 14, 2007

    Brian Foley

    You can keep bergman and moore and wainberg, they make you look real smart and “balanced”.

  423. #424 pat
    November 14, 2007

    John Moore

    It does NOT matter WHICH invectives are thrown about; you and your esteemed collegue Bialy, who blazed a similar professional trail online you have now embarked on, are “babbling old fruit”.

    “Stating the facts is what scientists do; twisting them is what the denialists do.”

    act your age

  424. #425 John Moore
    November 14, 2007

    Oh dear, oh dear, Pat has just displayed the classic “American in Paris” characteristic; i.e., if in doubt, shout the same thing only LOUDER. It’s already been stated on this and/or earlier threads that Jeanne Bergman made those comments at a time before Ms Maggiore’s daughter died of AIDS, thereby proving that Ms Maggiore is herself HIV-infected (unless Pat chooses to believe that the stork or the tooth fairy, and not the mother, infected the child). At the time of Jeanne’s comments, Ms Maggiore was in one of her periodic flip-flops in her public statements about her HIV-infection status, claiming (at that particular time) to be HIV-negative and a victim of the (allegedly) flawed HIV diagnostic assays (no doubt as a result of listening to her buddy, the technologically-challenged technologist Roberto Giraldo who has no understanding of how immunoassays work). The death of her daughter from AIDS provides the hard facts that reveal Ms Maggiore’s previous posturings for what they were; the politics of the AIDS denialist movement. Pat seems very keen to support the “rights” of Ms Maggiore’s family. Some might argue that the rights of her daughter to a prolonged and healthy life are also rather relevant here. Those basic human rights were taken away from her by her mother, who used AIDS denialist pseudoscience as a basis for her decisions to not protect her child from HIV-infection by using ARVs prophylactically, and to not have her daughter trtested and treated for HIV infection, actions that would have lengthened and improved her life substantially. This unnecessary death is yet another one that is attributable to the actions of the AIDS denialists en masse. It’s the need to protect other mothers from listening to Ms Maggiore and her AIDS denialist friends that underpins why AIDS scientists fight this fight. Pat will never understand this, he or she will merely now parrot what he or she has said before, only LOUDER.

  425. #426 pat
    November 14, 2007

    Brian,

    I just showed you how Jeanne Bergman self destructed her credibility with her overly-emotional editorial rubbish and to top it off she was basing her conclusions on scientific “evidence”.

    “False-negative HIV tests are extremely rare, while false positives are much more common, though infrequent. This fact and all the other available evidence strongly indicate that Maggiore was never infected with HIV, and she herself emphasizes the term “positive” and avoids saying she is infected or has the virus, allowing others to draw that erroneous conclusion”.

    I’ll start caring again once the real quacks, decievers and fabricators are done away with.

  426. #427 carter
    November 14, 2007

    John,
    Each and ever word spewed from your above post is a complete and utter fucking lie and you know it.

    Isn’t your time more valuable somewhere else. Why dont you make some more videos with you and Bergman saying HIV causes Aids. Those are always entertaining.

  427. #428 pat
    November 14, 2007

    “Maggiore’s daughter died of AIDS, thereby proving that Ms Maggiore is herself HIV-infected ”

    Apparently the relevant documents are still not available and it appears the authorities are working with fake or missing slides and no one here, including yourself cares to inform them”. Obstruction of justice? no, hardly but perhaps a hint of dishonesty in the claim.

    “At the time of Jeanne’s comments, Ms Maggiore was in one of her periodic flip-flops in her public statements about her HIV-infection status, claiming (at that particular time) to be HIV-negative and a victim of the (allegedly) flawed HIV diagnostic assays (no doubt as a result of listening to her buddy, the technologically-challenged technologist Roberto Giraldo who has no understanding of how immunoassays work).”

    If the tests are highly specific, why the inconsistancies. You need to establish that she DIDN’T have conflicting tests results. Your claim that she is lying about the inconsistancies in the tests rests entirely on your word and if you are going to play reporter and make wild allegations, it usually is a good idea to check your FACTS. Did Bergman ever call Maggiore for an interview for the article? Did she ask to see the results? I doesn’t look like it but that didn’t stop her from opining loudly in the press for all to read about how ugly a woman Maggiore is and how she profiteers from lying about her HIV status. I don’t know if she is or isn’t but I won’t take your deranged word for it.

    “The death of her daughter from AIDS provides the hard facts that reveal Ms Maggiore’s previous posturings for what they were; the politics of the AIDS denialist movement”

    When she was negative she was a profiteer and now that she is positive she remains a profiteer. Go figure? Your accusations against Maggiore rest on nothing but heresay and slander because the one thing you cannot put into words is HOW Moggiore profits from all this?

    Of course you are also the bottom feeder that would deny Maggiore any motherly instincts and claim that she would purposefully harm her kids for profit. You, the Gift from God, would have been a better parent to those kids. No “evidence” needed here. This is not science, this is politics and heresay is plenty fine for what you need her for , is that so? Is that your modus operandi. Don’t deny it John, you are one of those who would blame the victime. You do so very readily with Maggiore and have done the same now to Noreen. Both these people have been diagnosed with HIV…and not at times… If you can’t reach them, it is in my eyes a failure of medicine to persuade and that is all it ever will be. Stop dreaming of laws to pick up were you let off.

  428. #429 John Moore
    November 14, 2007

    Thank you, Carter, for so clearly proving the point that underlies Jorg’s comment below

    none of the “mainstreamers’ even approach the levels of rhetoric and insult of the likes of Geiger or MEC.

    Posted by: Jorg | November 14, 2007 12:41 PM

    to which I responded earlier.

  429. #430 carter
    November 14, 2007

    Doesn’t matter professor Moore, a lie, is a lie, is a lie.

  430. #431 nevere-a-peen
    November 14, 2007

    Brian, I just showed you how Jeanne Bergman self destructed her credibility with her overly-emotional editorial rubbish and to top it off she was basing her conclusions on scientific “evidence”. “False-negative HIV tests are extremely rare, while false positives are much more common, though infrequent. This fact and all the other available evidence strongly indicate that Maggiore was never infected with HIV, and she herself emphasizes the term “positive” and avoids saying she is infected or has the virus, allowing others to draw that erroneous conclusion”.I’ll start caring again once the real quacks, deceivers and fabricators are done away with. carter

    The really dangerous quacks are those, such as a well known cornel phd and his lawyer sidekick, who advocate deadly drugs based on a flawed hypothesis.

    People now know the truth. A “positive for HIV antibodies” test (whatever that means) is regarded very differently from the automatic death sentence of two decades ago. In retrospect we now know that this death sentence was death by AZT.

    People who know the adverse side effects of the toxic drug cocktails are avoiding them and living normal life spans.

    There are many message boards and web sites on the internet where notes can be shared and information gathered.

    The stranglehold of government censorship of the media has been broken by the free information of the internet. Our society will never be the same.

    Our society WILL NEVER AGAIN allow domination by the oppressive lies of the science establishment or the political establishment. We have entered a new age of hope, liberty and freedom unprecedented in the history of mankind.

    The death of the flawed “HIV causes AIDS hypothesis” after 20 years of lies, represents a giant step for one hiv man, and a giant leap for all mankind.

    The truth has become obvious to the beholder.

    HIV/AIDS is no longer recognized as science. It is, and always was, politics.

  431. #432 John Moore
    November 14, 2007

    What a sophisticated, analytical response that was from Carter, a well known and long standing AIDS denialist who epitomizes the entire, sad genre. Carter doesn’t like what he reads, so he simply states that the poster is “a liar”. This, of course, is precisely why scientists don’t “debate” or “discuss” science with AIDS denialists; the denialists don’t understand the science, and don’t like the facts, so they just say “you’re a liar” and go all pouty. It’s rather pathetic, but of course this Blog is full of such conduct, as Jorg and others have noticed.

  432. #433 John Moore
    November 14, 2007

    “Our society WILL NEVER AGAIN allow domination by the oppressive lies of the science establishment or the political establishment. We have entered a new age of hope, liberty and freedom unprecedented in the history of mankind.”

    That sounds rather like something Hitler might have said at a Nuremberg rally. Typical AIDS denialist rhetoric.

  433. #434 Chris Noble
    November 14, 2007

    Apparently the relevant documents are still not available and it appears the authorities are working with fake or missing slides and no one here, including yourself cares to inform them”. Obstruction of justice? no, hardly but perhaps a hint of dishonesty in the claim.

    What is it that you fail to explain. The authorities are not working with fake or missing slides. The coroner has GMS stained slides of Eliza Jane’s lung tissue showing PC organisms in foamy exudates characteristic and diagnostic for PCP. Christine Maggiore was shown these slides on Primetime by Ribe. The authorities do not need to be informed of anything.

    That Maggiore appears to believe that these slides are not important says more about her than the authorities.

  434. #435 Truthseeker
    November 14, 2007

    Incidentally, why is it that Anthony “Tony Baloney” Liversidge of the New AIDS Review is so ashamed of what he writes on this Blog that he has to do so only under the disguise of the pseudonym “Pat”? He makes ridiculous postings under his own name on the NAR, so what’s stopping him from putting his name under the same quality of material here? I guess there’s no fool like an old, gutless fool.

  435. #436 kyle
    November 14, 2007

    John,

    I see that you have posted a new article, written by Nicoli Nattrass ,on your Aidstruth website.
    In the article she states, Gallo was the discoverer of retroviruses.Even you can’t claim that to be true.
    So how many other blatant lies are in the article.

    .Robert Gallo, the discoverer of retroviruses, devoted ten pages of his book on discovering HIV to demolishing Deusberg’s speculations. (AFP Photo/Roland Magunia [Photo via Newscom])

  436. #437 franklin
    November 14, 2007

    Pat,

    When you claim that

    Apparently the relevant documents are still not available and it appears the authorities are working with fake or missing slides and no one here, including yourself cares to inform them

    you reveal just how full of it you really are.

    The “authorities”–the Coroner’s Office for Los Angeles–sampled the dead child’s lungs for histology and demonstrated Pneumocystis pneumonia. Maggiore was shown the diagnostic material as part of an interview that was televised nationally.

    She now claims that:

    From what I understand, her lungs show no pneumonia of any kind

    and supports this claim with photomicrographs posted on her web page.

    Hmmmm, I wonder why she doesn’t post the photomicrographs taken by the Coroner. You know, the the ones that demonstrate the Pneumocystis pneumonia? The ones she viewed as part of a national television broadcast?

    Do you really think that anyone has to inform the LA Coroner’s Office that they have slides demonstrating Pneumocystis and that the pictures Maggiore has posted on her web page are not representative of the lesions found in her daughter’s lungs?

    You think the Coroner doesn’t already know that?

  437. #438 Moleclar Entry Claw
    November 14, 2007

    Noble, Franklin and that other chickenshit who complains it’s unfair rethinkers write better than him – Moore or whatever his name is:

    Please board he plane, all expenses paid, and show Maagiore and Al-Bayati where they are wrong about the “fake lung slides”. What’s the matter with all you he-men, is meeting Maggiore and exposing her directly thereby saving countless lives too scary a prospect for you?

    Brave Sir John, how about it if we promise in advance we won’t use our superior rethoric against poor you? Wait I feel a song coming on. . .

    Brave Sir John ran away – No!
    Bravely ran away, away – I didn’t!
    When danger reared its ugly head
    He bravely turned his tail and fled – No!
    Yes, brave Sir John turned about
    And gallantly he chickened out
    Bravely taking to his feet
    He beat a very brave retreat
    Bravest of the brave, Sir John

    Btw, Harvey Bialy called you a “maricone”, which is very close to “faggot”, which in turn means means someone who is bitchy, cowardly and overly theatrical, so Pat is right you were called by that name you have earned so well many times over.

  438. #439 cooler
    November 14, 2007

    “(at least since Harvey Bialy wandered off the scene to die of his kidney cancer)” John moore

    Does sure sound like you got your jolly’s off a scientist who’s dying. But what else would you expect from someone that cant defend his views publicly and is losing more and more respect from the scientific community everyday.

    Moore is an enemy of free speech and informed consent, he does not want any intelligent person to hear an argument they’d find compelling, just like a corrupt prosecutor would do everything to keep a jury from hearing a solid defense. He has hinted that he wants to abolish the first amendment, he’s really losing it now, having delusions of grandeur comparing himself to Churchill!

    Rethinkers and real scientists want people to have informed consent when it comes to mercury, hiv, mycoplasma incognitus , fluoride etc.

    Stalinist drug company hacks like Moore only want you to hear their propaganda, and we know its all propaganda because real scientists with good arguments dont care if people are exposed other arguments that are fallacious, they very fact that Moore is so scared about people learning about Duesberg’s argument says it all.

    Imagine if a defense lawyer told a jury “you cant hear that argument because you might beleive it” You people are murderers and liars, start learning from real scientists like Shyh ching Lo, hacks like Moore are respsonsible for the spread of this microbe mycoplasma incognitus through the population, the only microbe that kills every animal inoculated. Good work John. Thanks for the genocide. Read Lo’s pathology studies above to really prove how a microbe is pathenogenic in humans, the militarys most distinguished infectious disease pathologist, shyh ching lo md phd, learn from a more competent and ethical scientist who doesnt name call and censor all day long.

  439. #440 Chris Noble
    November 14, 2007

    Please board he plane, all expenses paid, and show Maagiore and Al-Bayati where they are wrong about the “fake lung slides”.

    I really have troouble deciding whether you are being deliberately obtuse in an attempt to provoke an angry response or whether you are as dense and incapable of reading as you appear.

    The slides that Al-Bayati and Maggiore have been posting on the internet are not fake. However, they are not the GMS stained slides that provide incontrovertible evidence that Eliza Jane had PCP.

    The only remaining question is why Maggiore and Al-Bayati do not post the GMS stained slides on the internet for everybody to see or at least show them to an independent anatomical pathologist for evaluation.

  440. #441 pat
    November 14, 2007

    Chris,

    Then I wonder why the henchmen are repeatedly jumping the gun when the investigation isn’t wrapped up. I wonder what you were opining before EJ died. Did you speculate about her lying about her positive status to cash in on the AIDS scare as well? That was a dumb question, you always believed that.

    Nevere-a peen, you are quoting me not carter. These people are confused enough about who said what.

    Truthseeker,

    These people have dug themselves a hopelessly confusing hole here with who’s who. It started with a fake entry maliciously attributed to MEC. Since then I have been a few more things and reincarnations. J Moore thinks I am he/she/ Christine.

  441. #442 Chris Noble
    November 14, 2007

    Then I wonder why the henchmen are repeatedly jumping the gun when the investigation isn’t wrapped up.

    What do you mean the investigation isn’t wrapped up?
    Do you mean that Maggiore and Al-Bayati are yet to be convinced?
    In that case the investigation will never be wrapped up.

  442. #443 franklin
    November 14, 2007

    Sorry Pat,

    I missed your response.

    Do you really think we have a moral obligation to inform the Coroner about what his autopsy report says were found in the lung slides?

  443. #444 jen_m
    November 14, 2007

    This is the song that never ends
    It just goes on and on my friends
    Some people started singing it not knowing what it was
    And they’ll continue singing it forever just because –
    This is the song that never ends…

    (repeat ad nauseam, ad infinitum, forever and ever amen.)

    Pat, I think the entries confusingly attributed to Mountain Man were muddying the waters at about the same time that things went astray with MEC.

    Truthseeker, Pat is actually John Moore. Also, Chris Noble is bdkeller, franklin, and jspreen, cooler is Carter, I am Adele and Tara, and Christine Maggiore is Michael Geiger. We switch off who is Braganza on alternate Thursdays, and we rotate through different usernames like Molecular Entry Claw, kyle, and truthseeker to confuse matters further. Also, we are all Spartacus. Plus, Keyser Soze was Kane’s childhood sled and a symbol of innocence lost.

  444. #445 pat
    November 14, 2007

    “Hmmmm, I wonder why she doesn’t post the photomicrographs taken by the Coroner. You know, the the ones that demonstrate the Pneumocystis pneumonia? The ones she viewed as part of a national television broadcast?”

    I wonder why I can’t find them anywhere in cyberspace. Were the ones on TV authentic? Tell me, I am wide open; where is this stuff? I don’t watch TV.
    What was the result of Ribe’s latest trial? Is the verdict out yet?

  445. #446 Kyleresponder
    November 14, 2007

    Dr. Robert Gallo is the acknowledged discoverer of human retroviruses, not retroviruses per se. If Kyle had any understanding of the publishing process, he, she or it would realize that single word errors and omissions often creep into articles undetected. The existence of a minor typographical error in an article does not mean that the entire article is flawed, except of course to people like Kyle who choose to focus on minutiae as they lack the ability to see the bigger picture. This was a stupid post from a stupid person, but pretty typical of what gets onto this Blog.

  446. #447 kyle
    November 14, 2007

    Thank you Dr Moore for responding so quickly.
    That’s why Gallo won the Nobel prize or did he?
    He must really hate being the discoverer of
    the cause of the greatest plague known to man and not getting the Nobel prize for it.
    I wonder why he was never given it , such a prestigious scientist, he should have won the prize hands down.

  447. #448 pat
    November 14, 2007

    “Do you really think we have a moral obligation to inform the Coroner about what his autopsy report says were found in the lung slides?”

    Thats funny..though I do think we have a moral obligation, in respect to human decency and dignity , to presume innocence until proof of guilt. Ribe is being sued and investigated it appears, and I wouldn’t put too much weight on him for the moment. You are welcome to put all your money on him and your TV show. I will wait.

  448. #449 cooler
    November 14, 2007

    yep, the guy who said retroviruses cause cancer, well Gallo and levy, you idiots, Cancer isnt contagious, but then came AIDS, and a similar retrovirus jumped to be the cause of aids, jeez what a coincidence!

    Gallo announced a plaugue to the world with no animal model, a partial correlation where he only found hiv in 1 of 1000 cells, didnt even publish till a week later, and to this day there isnt one long term study to confirm his hypothesis, not one study that dared question his hypothesis, for you had to beleive it or youd end up like duesberg. They just kept on extending the window period when no one got sick.

    If there is a study that was designed to test his hypothesis, let me know, a long term study that controls for mycoplasmas, azt, drugs and severe stress by honest scientists, until then this hiv dissidency is going to get to be as big as the 9/11 conspiracy movement and you guys are going to have to debate the dissidents sooner or later, youve already lost South Africa.

    Maybe hiv does cause AIDS but the case is far from closed.

  449. #450 pat
    November 14, 2007

    “Pat, I think the entries confusingly attributed to Mountain Man were muddying the waters at about the same time that things went astray with MEC.”

    Well considering JP Moore re-wrote Bialy’s Wikipeadia entry once I think we both have our usual suspects. Those bloody old farts.

    “Truthseeker, Pat is actually John Moore. Also, Chris Noble is bdkeller, franklin, and jspreen, cooler is Carter, I am Adele and Tara, and Christine Maggiore is Michael Geiger. We switch off who is Braganza on alternate Thursdays, and we rotate through different usernames like Molecular Entry Claw, kyle, and truthseeker to confuse matters further. Also, we are all Spartacus. Plus, Keyser Soze was Kane’s childhood sled and a symbol of innocence lost.”

    I guess that means the fat lady is singing……….(no, not you)

  450. #451 cooler
    November 14, 2007

    Funny how not one chimpanzee has died of AIDS after hundereds were inoculated 20 years ago, another act of hiv woo?

  451. #452 franklin
    November 14, 2007

    Pat,

    Maggiore claims that her lawyers “ordered” the autopsy slides from the Coroner.

    If the Coroner was ordered to provide the autopsy slides as part of the discovery process in a legal action, all of the slides must be provided. They could probably also obtain any photomicrographs the Coroner has made of the slides, including the ones shown on PrimeTime.

    I do not know of any site on the web that has these photos freely available.

    You may be able to purchase a video of the PrimeTime episode from ABC.

  452. #453 Jorg
    November 14, 2007

    Tara wrote: “A better scene would be a student arguing with the teacher about a calculus problem that was settled years ago, when the student only has a 5th grade education in math and isn’t concerned about learning more–just asking for the “one paper” where this was all settled”

    Thank you, just about the words I was looking for. We do not debate creationists for the same reason, and “teaching the controversy” is an idiotic nonstarter for the same reason.

  453. #454 franklin
    November 14, 2007

    Pat Says:

    I do think we have a moral obligation, in respect to human decency and dignity , to presume innocence until proof of guilt. Ribe is being sued and investigated it appears, and I wouldn’t put too much weight on him for the moment.

    You do understand that “presuming innocence” applies to the defendant–the one being sued–in this case, Dr. Ribe.

    If you feel a moral obligation to presume innocence until proof of guilt, why does the lawsuit lead you to assume that the defendant’s word should carry little weight?

  454. #455 Molecular Spartacus Claw
    November 14, 2007

    As this string is clearly degenerating in the same way the previous one did, with claims and counter claims about who is what and why, it’s worth repeating the Spartacus post below.

    Incidentally, for those posters on this thread who don’t actually know who Pat/Anthony Liversidge/Tony Baloney is, and why would you, he’s an elderly Englishman living in New York who runs a puerile Blog, New AIDS Review, devoted to AIDS denialism and other related conspiracy theories. His deadly rival, a person he loathes more than he hates any AIDS scientist, is Harvey Bialy, whose own Blog was much more popular and better written then his own. Pat/Liversidge/Baloney likes to think of himself as some kind of civilized, Anglo aristo type, but in reality he’s just Bialy-lite, posting the same material only with less humor and even sillier scientific content. He reserves a special place of hatred in his heart for the AIDS Truthies, because they listed Bialy and not him on their “Who are the denialists page”. He took this to be a huge personal slight. Pathetic when you stop to think about it – the price of a big ego attached to a small brain I guess.

    I am Spartacus

    Refers to a scene in the movie “Spartacus” starring Kirk Douglas as Spartacus. After the army of former Roman slaves led by Spartacus is defeated in battle by legions of the Roman army, a Roman general stands before the captured surviving members of the slave army and demands that they turn over Spartacus, or else all of the former slaves will be executed. Upon hearing this and not wanting his friends to be executed, Spartacus stands up and says “I am Spartacus.” However, the loyalty of his friends is so great that each of them stands forward in succession, shouting “I am Spartacus!” until the shouts dissolve into a cacophony of thousands of former slaves each insisting “I am Spartacus!” Bewildered and still not knowing which of them is Spartacus, but impressed by the loyalty he inspires in his army, the Roman general has all of the slaves crucified in a miles-long display alongside the Appian Way leading back to Rome.

    Thus the phrase “I am Spartacus!” is often used to humorously start a chorus of responses of “No, I am Spartacus” among a group.

    Person enters chat room and types “I am Spartacus.”

    100 other people in the chat room then respond with “No, I am Spartacus!”, “I am Spartacus!”, etc.

  455. #456 Jorg
    November 14, 2007

    cooler wrote: “Cancer isnt contagious”

    Sorry to disappooint you, cooler, but there are indeed cancers that are quite contagious, even though that fact may have little to do with the conversation at hand.

  456. #457 Chris Noble
    November 14, 2007

    I wonder why I can’t find them anywhere in cyberspace. Were the ones on TV authentic? Tell me, I am wide open; where is this stuff? I don’t watch TV.

    well that proves it doesn’t it. If you can’t find it in cyberspace then it can’t be real!

    You’d better inform the authorities that the GMS stained slides in the coroner’s report are fake – your proof being that you don’t watch TV and you can’t find them in cyberspace.

  457. #458 pat
    November 14, 2007

    “You do understand that “presuming innocence” applies to the defendant–the one being sued–in this case, Dr. Ribe.”

    Yes, thank you for reminding me of the obvious. I will wait for his day in court too but until that day I see no obligation to “take his word on anything” in Maggiore’s case. He does have a track record that should even make you wonder about him.

    “If you feel a moral obligation to presume innocence until proof of guilt, why does the lawsuit lead you to assume that the defendant’s word should carry little weight?”

    I am not assuming his word carries little weight in HIS defense case and you know damn well I am talking about the entire case mounted against Maggiore and it is HIS trial for professional sloppiness that throws the entire report on EJ’s autopsy in doubt. That shouldn’t be too much to understand? Where can I find the slides Ribe showed on “primetime”?

  458. #459 Jorg
    November 14, 2007

    Pat: “I would see the retarded pupil and then watch in utter amazement as my professor self destructs in uncontrolable rage, screaming for security and a noose.”

    I love analogies!;)

    But seriously, in real world, a mentally challenged student would be attending special classes, with instructors trained to deal with her specific requirements (here, read introductory biology and basics of scientific method). The situation on this thread is more akin to retarded (you used the word first; do you think it bodes well for deniers?;)) students crashing a university class and yelling at the top of their lungs that the teacher is wrong about everything, disrupting the debate and refusing to shut up until removed by force!
    (Wait! Isn’t it what certain protesters did to E.O. Wilson back in the early ages of sociobiology?)

    Hmmm, it seems to me that this isn’t an analogy per se, but a rather close and proper reading of the situation obtaining on this thread…
    except for who is going to be the removing force? (In fact, I think Tara shows amazing restraint in not banning some people outright. Or was Geiger banned?) Of course I am sure that any attempt to disemvowel the more egregious idiots, PZ style, would result in howls decrying oppression and censorship.

  459. #460 Chris Noble
    November 14, 2007

    Where can I find the slides Ribe showed on “primetime”?

    Ask Christine.

    It’s been over two years since she was shown the slides on national TV. It beggars belief that she has shown no interest in this evidence.

    From what I understand, these are more or less close ups of what the regular slides show and don’t offer much in the way of new evidence to consider. Do you think these special stains might reveal something not found in the regular slides? If so, could you please explain?

  460. #461 Jorg
    November 14, 2007

    MSC wrote: “Thus the phrase “I am Spartacus!” is often used to humorously start a chorus of responses of “No, I am Spartacus” among a group”

    I am sorry, but I am most definitely *not* Spartacus. I am Brian!:)

  461. #462 pat
    November 14, 2007

    “Thank you, just about the words I was looking for. We do not debate creationists for the same reason, and “teaching the controversy” is an idiotic nonstarter for the same reason.”

    I guess then a hearty welcome to the “war” is in order jorg. You might as well dig a trench early and not budge either or maybe just stay home away from this truely idiotic “war”.

    Tell me, what is the point in starting a political thread about Mbeki and then say “we don’t debate”?

  462. #463 pat
    November 14, 2007

    “Ask Christine.

    It’s been over two years since she was shown the slides on national TV. It beggars belief that she has shown no interest in this evidence.”

    Let’s recap, we have been waiting for 2 years for Christine to provide copies of slides she was shown on prime time by the coroner who is under investigation for professional sloppiness in similar cases involving infant death resulting in wrongful convictions, that prove EJ died of AIDS-related pneumonia.

    Am I getting close?

  463. #464 pat
    November 14, 2007

    “Incidentally, for those posters on this thread who don’t actually know who Pat/Anthony Liversidge/Tony Baloney is, and why would you, he’s an elderly Englishman living in New York”

    Now I am an Englishman in New York

  464. #465 franklin
    November 14, 2007

    “Am I getting close?”

    No, you are not.

    It’s been almost 2 years since Ms. Maggiore appeared on national television reviewing the pathological slides that showed her daughter died of Pneumocystis pneumonia, but on August 10, 2007, she claimed the following:

    from what I understand, her lungs show no pneumonia of any kind

  465. #466 cooler
    November 14, 2007

    Sorry jorg, but it seems as though your lack of scientific pedigree is showing. HPV fails all of kochs postulates, but you have to make money for merck, your master.

    The real problem here is your lack you and your idols lack of balls, heart and scientific pedigree.

    You dont have Maniotis’s balls heart or Harvard pedigree

    you dont have shyh ching Lo’s md phd’s pedigree or balls either, he was considered a scientific genius in China, which is why he Army made him their lead pathologist to protect us in a war.

    He’s the only scientist to discover a microbe that killed every animal inoculated, mycoplasma incognitus, read his pathology study above to get some balls, the Read Project Day lily to find out how it was part of the bioweapons program.

    You dont have Duesbergs california scientist of the year national academy of science pedigree, or his balls and heart neither.

    You lack margulis’s big heart etc etc. I could go on and and on about the lack of pedigree and balls in your science.

    Instead of worshipping real scientists, you worship frauds like Gallo, gaduseck, and levy. Gaduseck was so desperate to have an animal model he drilled holes in monkeys head to make try and make them sick with his failed virus.

    These fools gave us viruses with no animal models, that were in 1 in a thousand cells and caused no symptoms for 10 years, aka they had no balls, heart or pedigree, like you john and jim.

  466. #467 Molecular Entry Claw
    November 14, 2007

    I really have troouble deciding whether you are being deliberately obtuse in an attempt to provoke an angry response or whether you are as dense and incapable of reading as you appear.
    The slides that Al-Bayati and Maggiore have been posting on the internet are not fake. However, they are not the GMS stained slides that provide incontrovertible evidence that Eliza Jane had PCP.
    The only remaining question is why Maggiore and Al-Bayati do not post the GMS stained slides on the internet for everybody to see or at least show them to an independent anatomical pathologist for evaluation.

    Ah, Dr. Noble at his very best, and this was just the beginning of his implosion.but The rest Pat has unravelled and summarized admirably just above.

    Forunately, Dr. Noble, I don’t have to wonder if you are dense or obtuse on purpose since we all know that’s the qualities you’re being paid for. The only remaining question is when you or some other cyber chickenshit will bring along an “independent pathologist” of your choice to go and sort out the mess: provide the right section of the right slides at the right resolution at the right magnification and get paid for it to boot.

  467. #468 cooler
    November 14, 2007

    he drilled holes in monkeys heads to try and make them sick with his failed virus.

    PS
    get some balls

  468. #469 John Moore
    November 14, 2007

    With all the silliness that now pervades this thread, I feel the need to presage this post with the statement “I am John Moore and I endorse this message – on the grounds that I wrote it”.

    Earlier today, in response to Jorg, I wrote that the denialists “focus down and in on some trivial error in a paper, or a minor inconsistency with another study, and use their “discoveries” to assert that the entire peer-reviewed scientific literature on HIV/AIDS is flawed”.

    Within hours, mere hours, “Kyle” posted a classic example of exactly this point, by highlighting a single word omission in Nicoli Nattrass’s outstanding “Skeptical Enquirer” article on denialism, and then extrapolating from this editing error to say that the entire article must therefore be full of “lies” (or words to that effect; the intent of Kyle’s post is clear enough).

    Wikipedia states “A lie is a type of deception in the form of an untruthful statement with the intention to deceive…”

    An error is not a lie.

    This is one of the several reasons why AIDS scientists don’t get into interchanges (debates/discussions) with the denialists concerning the scientific literature. The denialists don’t care about understanding the science, they seek only to reinforce their preconceived personal and political agendas. The finding of an error, a missing semi-colon, a misplaced superscript, whatever, anything, is considered sufficient of a triumphant discovery as to negate the entire body of peer-reviewed literature on HIV/AIDS.

    How would it go in such a “debate”?

    “Mr Scientist, you just mis-spoke. You are therefore a liar. Everything you have ever said therefore cannot be believed. This means that HIV does not exist. QED. We win”.

    Sadly, this is not just an idle parody, it is how it goes with these people. There is no middle ground, there is science and pseudoscience, and ne’er the twain shall meet. The denialists believe what they believe as a quasi-religious dogma, akin to the Religious Right’s belief in creationism. And, as Tara has written, the AIDS denialists and the creationists use exactly the same anti-science tactics to promote their “arguments”.

    On another subject, “Molecular Spartacus Claw” speculated about why Anthony Liversidge is not listed on AIDS Truth’s “Who are the denialists page”. We never for a moment considering adding him. Although he resembles Bialy in running a conspiracy theory/AIDS denialist Blog, it’s not particularly influential even in denialist circles. Moreover, Liversidge has no scientific training (accounting for the asinine content of what he posts), unlike Bialy who was able to use his degrees to persuade a few gullible journalists that he knew what he was talking about. Recording the reality about Bialy on AIDS Truth was therefore useful to show journalists who in fact they were dealing with; that situation would never arise with Liversidge. After all, if we listed Liversidge, we’d pretty much also have to list Michael Geiger…… One has to draw a line somewhere!

  469. #470 cooler
    November 14, 2007

    john,
    you need to get some balls big time, you also need to get laid, have you ever considered hiring a prositute?

  470. #471 cooler
    November 15, 2007

    john,
    Would you buck a really hot girl that was a denialist? 100 bucks says you would.

  471. #472 jen_m
    November 15, 2007

    Oh, not again with the getting-laid thing. And now apparently only people with balls are real people. Nice.

  472. #473 Chris Noble
    November 15, 2007

    Let’s recap, we have been waiting for 2 years for Christine to provide copies of slides she was shown on prime time by the coroner who is under investigation for professional sloppiness in similar cases involving infant death resulting in wrongful convictions, that prove EJ died of AIDS-related pneumonia.

    You don’t find it the least bit strange that Maggiore isn’t even interested in looking at the evidence?

    from what I understand, her lungs show no pneumonia of any kind

    This may be technically correct – it just places upper bounds on her understanding, or perhaps her willingness to understand.

  473. #474 cooler
    November 15, 2007

    Jen,
    Balls are a metaphor for being a free thinker in a world of government run science gone out of control, For example Margulis has big balls for standing up for hiv and 9/11 truth.
    your welcome,
    cooler

    see hiv fact or fraud
    read project day lily

  474. #475 Christine Maggiore
    November 15, 2007

    Hey John Moore:

    You ducked out of the last debate when I asked you to come to Los Angeles on my dime for a public discussion on where you see evidence of pneumonia in my daughter’s lung tissue slides. Now here you are on a new thread spouting off the same charges you apparently can’t substantiate.

    Where do you see evidence of the AIDS-related pneumonia (or any kind of pneumonia) that supposedly took my daughter’s life in the photos of the slides from the coroner’s office?

    On what basis do you claim to know my daughter’s HIV status when our family and our attorneys still have not received laboratory evidence of her HIV status from the coroner’s office? Or are you now taking the indirect evidence that she must be HIV positive because I test that way?

    If that’s how you come to the conclusion about my daughter, using your same illogic, perhaps you can explain why my husband and partner of 11 years tests HIV negative, and why my son, conceived, born and raised in the exact same manner as Eliza Jane, tests HIV negative?

    And what’s up with this new spin on your tall tales, trying to cover Jean Bergmann’s assanine remarks about me being “an HIV pretender” by claiming I “was in one of [my] periodic flip-flops…claiming (at that particular time) to be HIV-negative and a victim of the (allegedly) flawed HIV diagnostic assays?” Where is evidence for that ridiculous charge? You got a quote for that from somewhere other than your wishful thinking file?

    You want to talk about me and my family? Come here to Los Angeles and let’s face off in public. Come here and show m the evidence for pneumonia other than in the claims of a mendacious coroner who, the year before my daughter died, falsely accused Jose and Rocio Gonzalez and another poor hispanic couple of starving their children to death only to admit he was wrong when confronted by outside medical experts.

    The same coroner who concluded that Destiny Jacobo was sexually abused by her parents when there is no physical evidence for this in her autopsy report.

    The same coroner who changed multiple autopsy conclusions to fit the forced murder confession of David Allen Jones, a mentally retarded black man found innocent on appeal after serving seven years of a life sentence for crimes he didn’t commit.

    If this unethical, unprofessional coroner was atypically correct in our case, how come the Medical Board of California failed to charge Dr. Fleiss with gross negligence for EJ’s death? How come the Medical Board of Colorado just dropped their investigation into the last pediatrician to see her, Dr. Incao? And how come the board is now investigating the coroner?

    Fulfill on your AIDS Truth superhero motto to do anything to stop denialism: Come here and show me the evidence for your claims.

    Unless you’re willing to face off with me and cough up some answers, I suggest you find someone else’s dead child to pick on.

    Awaiting you in Los Angeles,

    Christine Maggiore

  475. #476 Jorg
    November 15, 2007

    cooler; I was going to bypass your whole tirade as being so asinine as not to even be wrong…you didn’t miss me, you were shooting at yourself, methinks. One remark of yours, however, deserves a little bit of attention.

    You said, “Instead of worshipping real scientists, you worship
    frauds…”
    (etc).

    Sorry, bud. I do not worship anyone, scientists, actors, frauds, magicians, gods or politicians. I am a good atheist, and my area of training is not virology, but, rather, physical science and philosophy. As if that mattered…

    In any case, i do keep an open mind; but just as I am not ready to keep it open to flat-Earthers and Moon landing deniers, I am not going to keep it open to other ridiculous ignorance.

    “An open mind is a good thing, but if it is too open, your brains are going to fall out.”–was that Sagan? Memory fails right now…

  476. #477 franklin
    November 15, 2007

    On what basis do you claim to know my daughter’s HIV status when our family and our attorneys still have not received laboratory evidence of her HIV status from the coroner’s office?

    Ms. Maggiore,

    While being interviewed for a nationally broadcast television show you were shown photomicrographs demonstrating HIV infection of your daughter’s brain.

    Did your attorneys request those slides from the Coroner’s office?

    If so, have they been received?

  477. #478 Jorg
    November 15, 2007

    Pat: We can argue and talk past each other, when the fit is on us and when we have time. I’ve been known to spend evenings over pints of beer arguing evolutionary theory with creationist nitwits who were probably lobotomized at birth, and I was only mildly pissed off (beer makes me benevolent). When I say “no to debating” I mean a public debate, an affair that legitimizes both points of view. i will point my finger and laugh at flat-earthers, but if they ask me for proofs that the earth is not flat—in a private conversation—I’ll be glad to proivide those (at least once or twice; my patience does have limits, after all). What I *will* not do is appear on public access TV channel (prime time is probably beyond my means…;)) and publicly debate with them as if their beliefs were not a bad joke they really are.

    Of course, that said, I doubt I can have any real friends who are creationists or conspiracy theorists; just as I was never able to stay in a relationship with someone religious or, for lack of a better term, New-agey.

  478. #479 Molecular Entry Claw
    November 15, 2007

    Jorg, I’m intrigued and touched by your explanation for why you cannot be friends with a Flat Earther, although you don’t mind having a beer with him. I will therefore refrain from expressing my first impulse upon reading your composition – being “who gives a shit?” Suffice to say that we people from the Draft For The War On AIDS Resistance Movement have only friends and no enemies. To show that our hearts are in the right place, we’ll also dedicate the next song, originally an homage to Ronald Reagan, to John Moore, professor at Weill Medical College:

    Drug Store Truck Driving Man

    Chorus:
    He’s a drug store truck drivin’ man
    He’s the head of the Ku Klux Klan
    When summer comes rollin’ around
    We’ll be lucky to get out of town

    Verse 1:
    He’s been like a father to me
    He’s like the only DJ you can hear after three
    I’m an all night singer in a country band
    And if he don’t like me he don’t understand

    Chorus

    Verse 2:
    He’s got him a house on the hill
    And he can play country records till you’ve had your fill
    And he’s a law man’s friend he’s an all night DJ
    Sure don’t think much like the records he plays

    Chorus

    Verse 3:
    He don’t like resistance I know
    And he said it last night on a big TV show
    He’s got him a medal that he won in the war
    Weighs 500 pounds and it sleeps by the door

    Chorus e repete:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrI-HM
    iZO8

  479. #481 pat
    November 15, 2007

    “When I say “no to debating” I mean a public debate, an affair that legitimizes both points of view”

    This is our main disagreement. I think debate legitimizes the audience not the speakers, but thats just me. Do you think Moore’s OpEd piece about Maggiore legitimizes the science behind AIDS? Do you think Bergman’s cruel and misleading writing legitimizes the science of AIDS? Do you think promoting the virtues of sensorship legitimizes the science of AIDS?

    “(beer makes me benevolent)”.

    drink more beer.

    I have never met a flat earther.

  480. #482 pat
    November 15, 2007

    “It’s been almost 2 years since Ms. Maggiore appeared on national television reviewing the pathological slides that showed her daughter died of Pneumocystis pneumonia, but on August 10, 2007, she claimed the following:

    from what I understand, her lungs show no pneumonia of any kind”

    Slides from a pathologist facing accusations of being a pathological fudger. A TV show. The “evidence” is rock-solid.

  481. #483 Chris Noble
    November 15, 2007

    Slides from a pathologist facing accusations of being a pathological fudger. A TV show. The “evidence” is rock-solid.

    The major accusation against Ribe appears to be that he changes his opinion when new evidence is presented to him. I’m not sure whether this is a virtue or a fault. If he doesn’t obtain evidence when he should have then I would agree that it is a fault.

    In this case the evidence has been obtained. There are GMS stained slides showing PC. If you have objections then attack the evidence not the person holding the slides.

    Your jibe about a TV show is a red herring. The evidence doesn’t become tainted because it was shown on a TV show. The important thing is that we know Maggiore has been shown the evidence.

  482. #484 pat
    November 15, 2007

    “The major accusation against Ribe appears to be that he changes his opinion when new evidence is presented to him. I’m not sure whether this is a virtue or a fault.”- Chris.

    It is a fault. Either the coroner makes observations on a body or doesn’t.

    “During cross-examination, Ribe admitted that he revised his opinion based on the courtroom testimony of another prosecution witness”

    “Ribe disavowed his earlier testimony as “just ridiculous,” arguing “I had zero time to prepare.””

  483. #485 Molecular Entry Claw
    November 15, 2007

    I have never met a flat earther.

    Hehe… Pat, you obviously hang out with the wrong crowd. Perhaps Moore et al. can introduce you to a few of their drinking buddies.

    Dr. Noble we are waiting for you to show the rest of us the evidence. Who is “we” btw? Are you also fantasizing about working for the CIA?

    Your jibe about a TV show is a red herring. The evidence doesn’t become tainted because it was shown on a TV show. The important thing is that we know Maggiore has been shown the evidence. (Noble)

  484. #486 pat
    November 15, 2007

    “In this case the evidence has been obtained. There are GMS stained slides showing PC. If you have objections then attack the evidence not the person holding the slides.”

    the evidence you brag about is not available, I attack the evidence; you attack Maggiore. It was seen once on low rez television. Everyone, including Maggiore and yourself are waiting for the release of this “evidence”. The lawyers asked for it and are waiting to this day for it. Stop parading american TV as “evidence”. You sound like a clown saying that.

  485. #487 ranklin
    November 15, 2007

    the evidence you brag about is not available, I attack the evidence; you attack Maggiore. It was seen once on low rez television. Everyone, including Maggiore and yourself are waiting for the release of this “evidence”. The lawyers asked for it and are waiting to this day for it. Stop parading american TV as “evidence”. You sound like a clown saying that.

    On what basis do you assume that “the lawyers are waiting to this day” for the GMS-stained slides and the slides demonstrating the HIV infection of the brain?

    To my knowledge Ms. Maggiore has never claimed that the GMS-stained slides wren’t provided to her lawyers, she just claims ignorance of their significance.

    Ms. Maggiore claims that she wanted to get a second opinion on the cause of her daughter’s death, so to review the autopsy slides, she turns to a Toxicologist with no training, certification, or license to practice Anatomic Pathology–and you defend this approach.

    Who looks like a clown?

    If your car’s clutch was acting up, would you ask a Trek Mountain Bike Repairman to look under the hood?

  486. #488 pat
    November 15, 2007

    “On what basis do you assume that “the lawyers are waiting to this day” for the GMS-stained slides and the slides demonstrating the HIV infection of the brain?”

    That is her claim and that of her lawyers. The claim she has them, is yours. The hIV test is also something they are waiting for.

    Cosidering the lack of available evidence, the false reporting by Bergman, the threats of forced removal for the remaining child and documented testimonial flip-flopping by the coroner, I choose “in dubio pro reo”.

  487. #489 pat
    November 15, 2007

    “Ms. Maggiore claims that she wanted to get a second opinion on the cause of her daughter’s death, so to review the autopsy slides, she turns to a Toxicologist with no training, certification, or license to practice Anatomic Pathology–and you defend this approach.”

    apparently this man does review autopsy reports for a living and the courts in LA don’t seem to have a problem with his certification. Maybe you should point out to the courts that Al-Bayati is not qualified for what he has been retained for.

  488. #490 Molecular Entry Claw
    November 15, 2007

    Franklin, we are still waiting for the AIDStruth Cyber Chickenshit Crusaders to bring along their own independent trained, certified and licensed anatomic pathologist to expose the denialist lung slide conspiracy.

    All expenses will be paid.

  489. #491 Jorg
    November 15, 2007

    Pat wrote: “I think debate legitimizes the audience not the speakers”

    Firstly, I am not talking about legitimizing the speakers but their points of view. Your existence as an individual (not to mention as a speaker) is legitimate enough and needs no confirmation or approval from anyone.

    Second, if “the people” are interested in learning the subject at hand they can take some classes, read some research (and yes, even consensus!) papers and generally make an effort to educate themselves. (And I by that I emphatically do *not* mean surfing the internet looking for pages that support their preconceptions. But judging by the tone of the conversation here, asking certain individuals to abide by scientific method would be too much, since they would not be able to recognize said method if it ran them over).
    Debates are only fun if they are between two legitimate alternatives. Otherwise they are boring, misleading, and useless.

    BTW, the ability to change one’s mind is a *great* quality in a scientist, something a lot of non-scientists do not realize. In a coroner—I have to agree with Chris:mdash;I am not sure if it is a virtue or a fault. Perhaps a bit of both.

  490. #492 pat
    November 15, 2007

    Thank you Jorg,

    It appears as usual as though everyone has lost track of the original topic. The original topic here is Mbeki. This requires no medical degree or any capacity to understand the scientific method or the science behind HIV. This is the politics of AIDS and if you think it is frustrated by people misconcepions then the onus is on science to be more understandable. It a failure of communication when scientists must resort cohersion to get their views across.

    “BTW, the ability to change one’s mind is a *great* quality in a scientist, something a lot of non-scientists do not realize.”

    Are you refering to Jeanne Bergman? Her great qualities as a scientist are shown in her ability to change her mind? That may be true of, say …Duesberg but Jeanne Bergman did not change her mind. Her agenda is still to discredit Maggiore. What did change however was the scientific evidence in support of her personal attacks against the integrity of Maggiore. Bergman, it is clear, does not care one iota about the emotional roller coaster people like Maggiore are thrust through. As someone who has never had to make tough personal descisions with regards to a positive HIV diagnosis, Bergman shows complete contempt for the reality of Maggiore’s very real dilemas.

    “Maggiore has never had to make agonizing treatment decisions for herself or for her children.”

    This must rank as one of the most pathetic attempts at assumption in the anals of AIDS politics.

  491. #493 pat
    November 15, 2007

    oops…annals

  492. #494 pat
    November 15, 2007

    I have an idea on how JP Moore can win his “war” on denialism over night and it requires only one or two small redefinitions in the strategy.

    He should stop defining “enemies” and stop defining “war” and the truth will be unmistakeable. Let the rock solid evidence speak for itself. Rock solid evidence does not need a guy with a paper hat on his head crusading around the world, playing Churchill and crushing the evil enemies of science. No truth and no righteous science ever needed to be delivered at gun point or with a threat of sanctions by a naked guy with a paper hat. JP Moore is a proponent of undemocratic tools and even a smuck like me knows where the moral highground truely lies. His behavior along with that of his buddies in ideology throw the entire integrity of science itself into disrepute. You need to back off or be replaced. You are a political menace.

    My humble opinion.

  493. #495 Jorg
    November 15, 2007

    One’s opinion on Mbeki’s actions is inextricably bound with one’s stance on HIV. If the scientific consensus is correct (and I, for one, am convinced of that), then Mbeki’s actions are simply criminal.

    There is a problem with “making science more understandable”. Some aspects of it just do not lend themselves to an easy understanding. I am not saying that virology is necessarily one of them (although I think that biochemistry makes my inflationary cosmology seminars look like a piece of cake, but that’s just me), but there is only so much simplification a subject can take before losing all useful content. I firmly believe that in order to appreciate and understand a particular literature one must learn at least the rudiments of the language that literature is written in. Demanding easy, abriged translations just doesn’t work, and in order to appreciate the beauty of say, a Hamiltonian, and understanding how it applies to the world at large you must suffer through a bit of calculus…

  494. #496 pat
    November 15, 2007

    “One’s opinion on Mbeki’s actions is inextricably bound with one’s stance on HIV. If the scientific consensus is correct (and I, for one, am convinced of that), then Mbeki’s actions are simply criminal.”

    You guys can keep that opinion in your very exclusive club if that is where you wish to keep it and I pray Moore, Wainberg and Co never make legislation. I can’t imagine them getting very far with their antics though; their ideology is not very popular.

  495. #497 Jorg
    November 15, 2007

    Why? If a leader of a country denied antibiotics to her people for some ill-specified reason, and said people were dying because they did not have access to medicine, would that leader’s actions not be considered criminal? You may disagree with the premisses, but I see no logical way to disagree with the conclusions, given the premisses are correct. And that is what I mean by “inextricably bound”

  496. #498 jspreen
    November 15, 2007

    Just like other potentially terminal diseases (including TB and cancer)

    I know that very few people today can listen to this, but one day it will be common knowledge that TB does not exist without a preceding cancer. That day the “potentially terminal” adjective will cease to be cast upon the millions by the armies of almighty yet totally ignorant medical doctors. Which day might that be? Easy! It will be the day when Dr Ryke Geerd Hamer’s New Medicine has finally reached the masses.

    Oh come on Jan, cut it out! Don’t you understand that you’re becoming one of the topmost trolls on the Internet?

    Yeah, I know. So what? Some people very much appreciate what I write and I have good hope that others will become curious little by little, start to read here and there and finally come to understand what Hamer’s New Medicine has to offer.

    You’re an incurable optimist! Nobody ever changed his mind on those Web logs and Internet forums. Just look at the everlasting discussions raging here.

    I don’t care a shit about big mouthed empty headed scientists and their yahoo lackeys who have nothing to do but do some herd-keeping on the Internet. I address the silent readers, the ones who are big enough to make up their own mind about what they read.

    (sigh)

  497. #499 cooler
    November 15, 2007

    Hamer was a quack,I read up on a little, please in a few sentances if you can convince me otherwise, you like some of the other posters on this site need some shyh ching lo, duesberg, nicolsons, baseman in your life with some Project Day lily to boot, the greatest book and most shocking of all time, on the mycoplamsa incognitus biowarfare program, the only microbe to kill every animal inoculated as Lo showed, when is Tara going to do a blog on Lo’s and Nicolsons work?…………….waiting………Read Lo’s pathology above to see how to prove a microbe is pathenogenic in humans.

    Afterall she does blogs on some pretty dumb topics, like chocolate and the gut, people are slowly dying, thank god Dr. maniotis is mentioning it in his new book, cares about humanity and wants people to have informed consent. After all its the only microbe out of hiv, hpv, hep c to cause death and disease in monkeys/mice, shouldnt people with mysterious infection like symptoms be tested and made aware of this?

  498. #500 Truthseeker
    November 15, 2007

    Looks like this thread has now completely degenerated into the random warblings of the crazy, sex-obsessed, conspiracy theorist, Lo-life cooler, the mad “there’s no such thing as a pathogen” Jan Spreen and Anthony (“call me Pat”) Liversidge, with only Jorg now posting as a voice of sanity and reason. What a waste of time it’s all become.

    By the way, anyone doubting that Pat is Tony Baloney Liversidge should read what he posts on his own Blog, NAR, where he admits to posting on this Aetiology string using multiple pseudonyms. Gee, what a surprise.

  499. #501 cooler
    November 15, 2007

    too bad ive got the facts on my side, and the university of California pedigree, youre probably a janitor, or an online degree recipient, lol loser.

  500. #502 jspreen
    November 15, 2007

    the mad “there’s no such thing as a pathogen” Jan Spreen

    Ha, Ha, Ha!!!! Show me where I wrote that! Pathogen simply means A disease producer. Nothing else. Disease exist, I wouldn’t deny that one can feel very “dis-eased” thus disease producers must also exist. So many things can produce disease!

    What? That’s not what you meant? Ah, you were talking about germs! Okay then, true enough, the germ theory of diseases, of course, that all nonsense to me….

  501. #503 jspreen
    November 15, 2007

    Hamer was a quack, I read up on a little, please in a few sentances if you can convince me otherwise,

    The core of Hamer’s New Medicine holds on half a page A4. But to grab it’s meaning, it takes a lot of time and unless you can see through the hate propaganda against Hamer, I think his findings are completely out of reach for you. For you and so many others who, when it comes to a different approach of something about which they already made up their mind, firmly stick to their ideas and try to beat the heretic with the stick of main stream propaganda.

  502. #504 cooler
    November 15, 2007

    hamer beleives that all illneses are caused by a very stressful event in childhood, and that all illnesses like cancer, aids are the result?

  503. #505 pat
    November 15, 2007

    “Why? If a leader of a country denied antibiotics to her people for some ill-specified reason, and said people were dying because they did not have access to medicine, would that leader’s actions not be considered criminal? You may disagree with the premisses, but I see no logical way to disagree with the conclusions, given the premisses are correct. And that is what I mean by “inextricably bound”

    Why do you use an antibiotic analogy when you can say ARV’s? Again. I thank the stars that scientists aren’t the only ones with a right to vote. Misguided? perhaps but criminal is to take the extrem position and most won’t follow you there. We can agree to disagree however.

  504. #506 pat
    November 15, 2007

    “Looks like this thread has now completely degenerated into the random warblings of the crazy, sex-obsessed, conspiracy theorist, Lo-life cooler, the mad “there’s no such thing as a pathogen” Jan Spreen and Anthony (“call me Pat”) Liversidge, with only Jorg now posting as a voice of sanity and reason. What a waste of time it’s all become.

    By the way, anyone doubting that Pat is Tony Baloney Liversidge should read what he posts on his own Blog, NAR, where he admits to posting on this Aetiology string using multiple pseudonyms. Gee, what a surprise.

    Posted by: Truthseeker | November 15, 2007 3:53 PM”

    Now I know this is not from Anthony Liversidge AKA “truthseeker”. Who could this well be…mmm

  505. #507 pat
    November 15, 2007

    “By the way, anyone doubting that Pat is Tony Baloney Liversidge should read what he posts on his own Blog, NAR, where he admits to posting on this Aetiology string using multiple pseudonyms. Gee, what a surprise.”

    you are welcome to advertise your arch enemy.

  506. #508 jspreen
    November 15, 2007

    hamer beleives that all illneses are caused by a very stressful event in childhood, and that all illnesses like cancer, aids are the result?

    No, that’s not the right way to put it. Stressful event, yes, childhood, no. BTW, the actual concept of Aids is about the worst possible explanation of what really happens and as such Aids is merely the result of scientific nonsense thinking.

    The major discovery of Hamer is not only the idea of a stressfull event provoking a biological conflict, but also the revolutionary notion that all diseases come by the pair. To which we must add the fabulous ontogenetic system of diseases and germs.

  507. #509 Jorg
    November 15, 2007

    I couldn’t very well use ARVs as an analogy to themselves, could I? Again, a leader that knowingly slaughters her people is criminal. i think we agree on that. A leader that is misguided may not be strictly speaking a criminal, but a.as we all know, ignorance of the law is no excuse, and b.when many have attempted to point out exactly where the leader’s point of view is wrong and s/he still ignores the evidence, her actions are beginning to cross the border of criminal behaviour.

    We can only censure a (hypothetical?) leader like that; nobody is advocating invasion, war, assassination and/or prison. Unless the people of the country abused choose to do so, of course.

  508. #510 Jorg
    November 15, 2007

    Truthseeker:

    Thanks for the kind words. :-)

    However, your comment made me realize that actually posting on this thread goes beyond the most liberal definition of sanity and reason, and I am doing that probably just to get the last word in…Screw it. I stop. Now!

  509. #511 Chris Noble
    November 15, 2007

    By the way, anyone doubting that Pat is Tony Baloney Liversidge should read what he posts on his own Blog, NAR, where he admits to posting on this Aetiology string using multiple pseudonyms. Gee, what a surprise.

    I suspect that Pat really is Pat. Some of the Denialists do use multiple pseudonyms but not all.

    Liversidge posted under the pseudonym “Truthseeker” above in the thread. I don’t know if he has used other pseudonyms.

    I gave up trying to guess who was who after making mistakes. In the end it doesn’t matter much.

  510. #512 franklin
    November 15, 2007

    “On what basis do you assume that “the lawyers are waiting to this day” for the GMS-stained slides and the slides demonstrating the HIV infection of the brain?”

    That is her claim and that of her lawyers. The claim she has them, is yours. The hIV test is also something they are waiting for.

    When did Ms. Maggiore claim that neither she nor her lawyers have received the GMS-stained slides or the brain slides from the Coroner’s Office?

  511. #513 Chris Noble
    November 15, 2007

    the evidence you brag about is not available, I attack the evidence; you attack Maggiore. It was seen once on low rez television. Everyone, including Maggiore and yourself are waiting for the release of this “evidence”. The lawyers asked for it and are waiting to this day for it. Stop parading american TV as “evidence”. You sound like a clown saying that.

    Why do you claim it is not available?
    It was in the Coroner’s report. It was shown personally to Maggiore.
    Are you telling me that Maggiore has requested the slides and has not received them?
    That isn’t what she says.

    From what I understand, these are more or less close ups of what the regular slides show and don’t offer much in the way of new evidence to consider. Do you think these special stains might reveal something not found in the regular slides? If so, could you please explain?

    Maggiore has been shown the evidence. We know this because it was broadcast on national television.

    The television show is not the evidence. You are being deliberately obtuse by suggesting that this is the case. The slides are the evidence.

    If you think the slides that Maggiore was shown are fakes then you had better inform the authorities.

  512. #514 no_new_moan_yeah
    November 15, 2007

    “It’s been almost 2 years since Ms. Maggiore appeared on national television reviewing the pathological slides that showed her daughter died of Pneumocystis pneumonia, but on August 10, 2007, she claimed the following:from what I understand, her lungs show no pneumonia of any kind” Slides from a pathologist facing accusations of being a pathological fudger. A TV show. The “evidence” is rock-solid.

    Take a look at the slides yourself. There is no pneumonia. The lung alveoli are clear.

    Fig 1A page 6 Photograph of Eliza Jane Scovill’s H & E stained lung section shows normal structures of the lung. Note that the alveolar spaces are free of exudates and the alveolar walls are free of inflammation and fibrosis.

  513. #515 franklin
    November 15, 2007

    Hey no_new_moan_yeah,

    What makes you think that photomicrograph is representative of the pathological changes in Eliza Jane Scovill’s lungs?

  514. #516 pat
    November 15, 2007

    “I couldn’t very well use ARVs as an analogy to themselves, could I?”

    no, that is contrary to the rules of the english language but you didn’t need an analogy.

  515. #517 pat
    November 15, 2007

    “Again, a leader that knowingly slaughters her people is criminal.”

    This is precisely the crux of it all. You cannot argue he is “slaughtering” his people without being histerical. You use the language of hysteria when you yourself, believably are not. Visit Rwanda or Theresienstadt and educate yourself as to the meaning of the word “slaughter”.
    Mbeki is not a “slaughterer”. Orac calls it the Hitler Zombie. Making a wrong and hateful comparison in order to discredit. It is a weak intellectual fart.

  516. #518 pat
    November 15, 2007

    Tara,
    All Things aside, perhaps it is time for a web programme that limits Usernames to one per verifyiable e-mail address.
    This would greatly reduce the mischievous activities of the less mature trolls on this and future threads.

  517. #519 pat
    November 15, 2007

    “I suspect that Pat really is Pat. Some of the Denialists do use multiple pseudonyms but not all.

    Thank you and I take you at noble value too but stop being so lop-sided in your views. You know damn well old farts across science extend to this day their stupid fraternity jokes like the one JP Moore pulled off on Bialy’s wiki entry and all the dumb shit Bialy pulled too.

    Your world is so simple. I envy you.

  518. #520 Carter
    November 15, 2007

    Hey but Carter is Carter.

    And Hilary mixes AIDS CHURCH religion and politics quite nicely. So now it’s not enough to spend the gazillions of taxpayers dollars – lets raid the church coiffeurs too.

    click on carter —->

  519. #521 Chris Noble
    November 15, 2007

    You know damn well old farts across science extend to this day their stupid fraternity jokes like the one JP Moore pulled off on Bialy’s wiki entry and all the dumb shit Bialy pulled too.

    How do you know it was John that altered Bialy’s wiki entry. He’s hardly the only person in the world that Bialy has pissed off. From what I have seen John always uses his real name.

  520. #522 jen_m
    November 15, 2007

    Pat, I suspect ScienceBlogs doesn’t want to require registration to comment, which is required to do the one-on-one mapping of username to e-mail. That decision might be the purview of the individual blogger, but I suspect not. Besides, it’s a hassle to have to register just because a few people are irritating, not to mention what the reaction would be from certain paranoids around here who think they’re being censored every time Dr. Smith takes a few hours to review the held-for-moderation queue.

  521. #523 Rob Schwartz
    November 15, 2007

    Excuse me,

    I am the Rob you are referring to and for the record, I am Jewish. My last name is Schwartz which is a Jewish last name and if you had any sense of humor whatsoever or knew anything about being Jewish, you would realize that I was joking about that. In fact, I was the creator of the group exposing experimentation on children. The remark I made was in response to a joke my friend Seth had made on the wall of the group and playing along with the joke I made an antisemitic joke, knowing that anyone with half a brain knows that Schwartz is a Jewish last and therefore it was a joke. Sometimes people use humor to deal with tragedy, get over yourself.

  522. #524 pat
    November 15, 2007

    “When did Ms. Maggiore claim that neither she nor her lawyers have received the GMS-stained slides or the brain slides from the Coroner’s Office?”

    She claims to have all the slides and the TV slides were not among them. She asks in her letters Chris links to what the significance of those slides are and there is no evidence that she recieved a reply. http://www.rethinkingaids.com/challenges/Maggiore-Flegg.html

    I have no evidence of the existance of those slides outside the broadcast TV report Chris harps on about.

  523. #525 pat
    November 15, 2007

    “Besides, it’s a hassle to have to register just because a few people are irritating, not to mention what the reaction would be from certain paranoids around here who think they’re being censored every time Dr. Smith takes a few hours to review the held-for-moderation queue.”

    I understand the hassle but the reality is no one knows who’s who anymore and all those “fake” posts went unfiltered. Screw the paranoids, something needs tweaking to ensure at least a moderately meaningless flame “war”.

  524. #526 pat
    November 15, 2007

    “From what I have seen John always uses his real name.”

    Maybe…we won’t as long as people can post as “whatever”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xz7_3n7xyDg

  525. #527 jen_m
    November 15, 2007

    Rob, that was a week ago. It would have made your point more effectively if you’d actually linked to the relevant comment – most people around here have NO idea what you’re talking about. (It’s here: http://scienceblogs.com/aetiology/2007/11/mbeki_still_in_denial.php#comment-630748 )

    Pat, sure it would make things more comprehensible, but if Dr. Smith was going to require registration, I think she would have done it around the time that people were threatening each other with bodily harm. Merely being unable to tell what the hell is going on in the comments is par for the course. For me, anyway. I don’t even try to guess who’s who, because it doesn’t really matter.

  526. #528 Tara C. Smith
    November 15, 2007

    Pat, I suspect ScienceBlogs doesn’t want to require registration to comment, which is required to do the one-on-one mapping of username to e-mail. That decision might be the purview of the individual blogger, but I suspect not.

    It’s not. I could force everyone to use TypeKey, but that’s a real pain in the ass, and all anyone would have to do to get around it is register twice anyway as it doesn’t limit by IP address. I’ve asked people before to stick to one pseudonym but you can see how well they follow that.

  527. #529 cooler
    November 15, 2007

    Hey rob,
    its me from facebook, im the one that sent you that message, its a girl named Adele that accuses us and that whole group of being anti semitic, she usualy posts here everyday, she nuts! all she does is call people anti jewish all day, without any evidence

  528. #530 pat
    November 15, 2007

    I’m no authority on compoooters but I’ve seen plenty of websites with username reservation and it wasn’t a hassle to register

    “I think she would have done it around the time that people were threatening each other with bodily harm.”

    relax. It’s hysterical. But the verdict is in. These threads are not worth following for anyone and I concur.

    “For me, anyway. I don’t even try to guess who’s who, because it doesn’t really matter.”.-jen_m

    “I’ve asked people before to stick to one pseudonym but you can see how well they follow that.”-Tara

    Chris,

    “How do you know it was John that altered Bialy’s wiki entry. He’s hardly the only person in the world that Bialy has pissed off. From what I have seen John always uses his real name.”

    How do you know that multiple-pseudonym syndrom is specific to “denialist” infection of thought?

  529. #531 Jorg
    November 15, 2007

    pat: (breaking my own word to myself! obviously, you cannot trust a scientist!)

    Having grown up in the USSR, I am quite familiar with the meaning of the word “slaughter”, even though I am too young to have witnessed it myself. Memories run deep (or at least they used to; nowadays many of the school-kids do not know anything about the War or Stalin’s purges, etc…but I digress).

    I used a hypothetical conditional, and therefore the word slaughter. The word “if” was very important in that context. However, if anybody even *contributes* to the deaths of thousands of people, is that person not responsible? I use criminal not in the legal sense of the word but rather in an ethical sense. In any case, as I have said above, the culpability depends on whether or not you accept the premisses. I happen to do so; I assume that you do not, hence charges of negligence contributing to (many) wrongful deaths do not apply and you can talk about the complexities of political settings.

    I have no marshmallows in this fire in any case (besides thinking that denying the connection between HIV and AIDS is rather silly while not at all being funny), and originally posted only to comment on the particular behaviours of particular people in this particular thread, I am afraid.

  530. #532 franklin
    November 15, 2007

    I have no evidence of the existance of those slides outside the broadcast TV report Chris harps on about.

    Try reading the autopsy report (page 16 has the histology results).

  531. #534 cooler
    November 15, 2007

    Look at you losers, weve got the best scientists on our side

    World Renowned Scientist, Lynn Margulis, Ph.D.
    National Academy of Sciences Member
    Calls for New 9/11 Investigation
    Official Explanation a Fraud
    27aug2007

    World renowned scientist, Lynn Margulis, Ph.D., today severely criticized the official account of 9/11 and called for a new investigation, “I suggest that those of us aware and concerned demand that the glaringly erroneous official account of 9/11 be dismissed as a fraud and a new, thorough, and impartial investigation be undertaken.”

    One of America’s most prominent scientists, Dr. Margulis is Distinguished University Professor in the Department of Geosciences, University of Massachusetts – Amherst. She was elected to the National Academy of Sciences in 1983 and served as Chairman of the Academy’s Space Science Board Committee on Planetary Biology and Chemical Evolution. In 1999, President Bill Clinton presented Dr. Margulis with the National Medal of Science, America’s highest honor for scientific achievement, “for her outstanding contributions to understanding of the development, structure, and evolution of living things, for inspiring new research in the biological, climatological, geological and planetary sciences, and for her extraordinary abilities as a teacher and communicator of science to the public.”

    In her statement on PatriotsQuestion911.com [Below], Dr. Margulis referred to 9/11 as “this new false-flag operation, which has been used to justify the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq as well as unprecedented assaults on research, education, and civil liberties”. She compared 9/11 to several self-inflicted attacks that had been used in the past to arouse people’s fear and hatred and justify war, including the sinking of the USS Maine in Havana Harbor, the Reichstag Fire, and Operation Himmler, which Germany used to justify the invasion of Poland, the trigger for World War II.

    Dr. Margulis credited “the research and clear writing by David Ray Griffin in his fabulous books about 9/11″ for providing much of the information that formed her opinion about 9/11. She specifically lauded The New Pearl Harbor and The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions, “which provides overwhelming evidence that the official story is contradictory, incomplete, and unbelievable.”

    Internationally acclaimed for her ground-breaking scientific work, Dr. Margulis is an elected member of The World Academy of Art and Science, an organization of 500 of the world¹s leading thinkers, chosen for eminence in art, the natural and social sciences, and the humanities. And in 2006, she was selected as one of “The 20th Century’s 100 Most Important Inspirational Leaders” by the editors of Resurgence magazine.

    source: email 26aug2007

    ——————————————————————————–

    BIO

  532. #535 franklin
    November 15, 2007

    Cooler says:

    Hamer was a quack,I read up on a little, please in a few sentances if you can convince me otherwise, you like some of the other posters on this site need some shyh ching lo, duesberg, nicolsons, baseman in your life with some Project Day lily to boot, the greatest book and most shocking of all time, on the mycoplamsa incognitus biowarfare program

    I tried to tell you back on October 10th that you were missing an opportunity to plug your favorite work of fiction:

    I’m just letting you know that jspeen, who you totally agree with, doesn’t beleive that Mycoplasma fermentans (incognitius strain) causes disease.
    There may be a work of fiction that you might be interested in recommending to him.

  533. #536 cooler
    November 15, 2007

    Franklin, did you buy your degree at wal mart or target? damn loser barely passed high school, probably went to a ghetto college and flunked out, now hes a full time science blogger. I hate stupid uneducated people!

  534. #537 Chris Noble
    November 15, 2007

    She claims to have all the slides and the TV slides were not among them. She asks in her letters Chris links to what the significance of those slides are and there is no evidence that she recieved a reply.

    http://www.rethinkingaids.com/challenges/Maggiore-Flegg.html

    No. She specifically states that she does not have the special [GMS] stained slides. Maggiore has been advised by Al-Bayati so I find it strange that she is still ignorant about the importance of the GMS stained slides. It’s a diagnostic test for PCP. How could they not be relevant to the issue.

    I have no evidence of the existance of those slides outside the broadcast TV report Chris harps on about.

    They are directly referred to in the Coroner’s report. If you think they don’t exist then you had better inform the authorities. Maggore has seen the slides. Does she claim they are fake?

  535. #538 Molecular Entry Claw
    November 15, 2007

    “What makes you think that photomicrograph is representative of the pathological changes in Eliza Jane Scovill’s lungs?”

    Posted by: franklin

    Franklin, what’s wrong with you, apart from being a chickenshit who is scared to go directly to Christine Maggiore? How would Pat know all these things? He is not sitting with the slides in front of him; neither is he sitting inside Maggiore’s head in spite of what the idiots here who can’t recognize very characteristic writing styles may think.

    The notion that you can show select sections of select slides to a lay person during a TV show and use this as proof that she has had a chance to examine the evidence is beyond desperate even for you guys.

    Here’s what Maggiore has to say about that TV show and the presentation of the slides – and yes the top bozo of all you bozos in the war on Christine Maggiore, the one Niccoli Nattras references in his FINE Sceptical Enquirer article advertized by brave Sir John up above, DID declare the Maggiore slides fake. But they weren’t fake, which means that you guys’ hero paediatrican, molecular biologist, PhD, MD, was unable to make anything but the most moronic of statements on background of that TV show, and yet you keep referencing it as if it were the paper that proves HIV causes AIDS.

    Nick Bennett complains the slides aren’t real because they don’t look like what he thinks he saw on the TV show. Boo hoo. What he saw on TV was an enlarged area of a slide and a mendacious coroner pointing to some black dots and making unsupportable claims.
    If you and Bennet and all those who hopped on the Ribe bandwagon had seen the full Ribe interview for PrimeTime (the stuff they played for us on a monitor that we commented on), you’d be running as far as you could from this guy. He makes stuff up and gets caught doing it ALL THE TIME but thus far, has picked on poor Latinos, homeless black people, drug addicts and prostitutes–people who are unable to hold him accountable for his acts. He strayed outside the usual group in our case, hopefully to his severe detriment.

    There you bave it chickenshits. Now take Bennett and whoever else makes you feels safe and brave with you, go to LA and explain to Christine Maggiore how those “black dots” in the “enlarged area” is so obviously PCP that Bennett was able to diagnose it from his intellectual jerk off couch with such certainty that he can even spot “fake” slides on this background.

  536. #539 Chris Noble
    November 15, 2007

    How do you know that multiple-pseudonym syndrom is specific to “denialist” infection of thought?

    I never said it was. I just missed the leap of logic where John Moore was identified as the person who altered Bialy’s wiki page. The only evidence appears to be Bialy’s paranoia.

  537. #540 Chris Noble
    November 16, 2007

    Nick Bennett complains the slides aren’t real because they don’t look like what he thinks he saw on the TV show.

    Nick has never claimed that any slides are fake. There is a very simple point. The slides that Maggiore was shown were the GMS stained slides. These are not the same slides that Al-Bayati used in his “report”.

    The GMS stains are in the Coroner’s report. If you or anyone thinks that the GMS stains are fake or that they don’t really show PC organisms then you had better inform the authorities of these crimes.

    All this blather about fake slides and television shows appears to be a pathetic attempt to avoid dealing with the evidence which is the GMS stained slides.

  538. #541 John Moore
    November 16, 2007

    MEC writes in his or her post above:

    “…. the one Niccoli Nattras references in his FINE Sceptical Enquirer article”

    Nicoli Nattrass (not Niccoli Nattras) is in fact a woman. This is hardly a state secret, because the article in the Sceptical Enquirer contains a rather charming photograph of its author, the unquestionably female Dr. Nattrass.

    It couldn’t possibly be the case that an AIDS denialist like MEC is commenting on an article’s contents without actually reading it, could it? Surely not, perish the thought, nobody would actually do anything like that, would they? Well, no scientist would, but of course the standards are rather different for the likes of MEC, hiding away under his pseudonym, along with “pat”.

    This thread would indeed be easier to follow if everyone did what I’m doing by posting under my own name. But of course the standards are rather different for the likes of MEC, hiding away under his pseudonym, along with “pat” (oh, did I already say that….).

  539. #542 John Moore
    November 16, 2007

    Chris Noble is quite correct on two counts:

    1) “I just missed the leap of logic where John Moore was identified as the person who altered Bialy’s wiki page. The only evidence appears to be Bialy’s paranoia.”

    Bialy is indeed paranoid, amongst other things.

    2) “Nick (Bennett) has never claimed that any slides are fake.”

    To my knowledge, that is true. I have never heard or read Nick making that claim.

    This issue of the pathology slides and what they allegedly do and do not show will not be settled by internet gossip. If Ms. Maggiore is foolish enough to continue with her legal action against the LA Coroner’s office, the truth will be revealed in a court of law (actually, it already has been, in the official Coroner’s report). Believing that Coroners fake documents like this report is akin to believing that the moon landings were filmed in New Mexico, or that 9/11 was an inside-job by the CIA (oh, hang on, a lot of the AIDS denialists do have those beliefs, silly me for forgetting!)

  540. #543 Chris Noble
    November 16, 2007

    I’m pretty sure that Pat really is Pat.

    Claus Jensen referred to him in his rant email: SOME GUYS LIKE MICHAEL GEIGER AND PAT MANAGE THAT YOU KNOW, JUST BEING BROTHERS IN ARMS ,BROTHERS! WITHOUT LETTING THEIR ASSES TAKE OVER THEIR PERSONALITY.

    Geiger and a couple of others appear to be behind most of the sock-puppetry.

  541. #544 cooler
    November 16, 2007

    John,
    read lynn murgulis’s pedigree above, and compare it to yours………….(just collapsed in complete laughter)

  542. #545 cooler
    November 16, 2007

    Margulis that is………………(just collapsed in complete laughter again)

    Whats johns greatest scientific acomplishment,taking grants from drug company hacks, failed microbicides, maybe hell get the nobel prize for trying to get professors fired all day?

  543. #546 Truthsseker
    November 16, 2007

    “By the way, anyone doubting that Pat is Tony Baloney Liversidge should read what he posts on his own Blog, NAR, where he admits to posting on this Aetiology string using multiple pseudonyms. Gee, what a surprise.”

    Tara, this witless inanity is entirely false, if anyone cares. I have only posted once on this exciting thread.

  544. #547 cooler
    November 16, 2007

    You guys need to listen to your scientific elder DR. richard Strohman, professor emeritus of MCB from Cal. Bow your head and learn moore.

    “The last four pages of this review were devoted to HIV and its role in AIDS. It appeared to Peter that many of the same contradictions that appeared in the retrovirus/cancer hypothesis also appeared in the HIV/AIDS hypothesis. He systematically began to discuss the weaknesses in HIV as a retrovirus causing immunodeficiency. Included in his criticism back in 1987 were the following crucial points that stand against the hypothesis and that remain completely unanswered by the scientific orthodoxy in charge of AIDS research:

    There is HIV infection and low or no risk of AIDS; therefore, something other than HIV must be involved.
    The long latent period between infection and clinical disease is inconsistent with the short generation time of retroviruses which is only 24­48 hours and with everything known about experimental retroviral disease. AIDS remains as the only claimed retroviral disease outside of the laboratory!
    The levels of actual HIV found in the blood of AIDS patients is too low to account for observed loss of immune function.
    There is no animal model for AIDS.
    HIV is not directly cytocidal; it does not kill T cells.
    All of these points were then, and are now, defended by a close analysis of available data, as you will see. As the reader goes through this collection, it will become clear how steady are these points and how they remain critical and unanswered. The last point is of special interest since, in 1995, eight years later, we find in Nature, arguably the leading science weekly journal in the world, the commentary that, at the same time (a) confirms Peter Duesbereg’s contention (point number 5, above) that the evidence could never have supported direct viral killing; and (b) shifts the standard hypothesis around 180 degrees. The Nature commentary, in an article dealing with HIV, said that: “… an intrinsic cytopathic effect of the virus is no longer credible.” (Wain-Hobson, S. Nature, 373: 102, 1995).

    What very few people realize, including most professors of molecular biology that I know, is that this shift has occurred: that the orthodox view of HIV as a direct killer of human immune cells has been thrown out. This is a crucial issue since the experiments surrounding this new view, while they have received wide acclaim by the AIDS orthodoxy, are seen to be flawed by many other experts (see Nature, Scientific Correspondence 375: 193­198, 1995).

    The new view is that the source of trouble is not direct killing by HIV but rather a cell-mediated killing of HIV-infected cells by the immune system itself (Wei, et al., and Ho, et al. Nature 373: 117­126, 1995). This turn-around was necessitated by the fact that Duesberg’s third point (above) was also true. How could HIV kill so many T cells if one could not detect significant numbers of free HIV in a patient’s blood? This question has remained unanswered until these recent reports. Using new amplification methods to detect HIV, Wei and Ho conclude that, indeed, free virus is found after all. However, as Duesberg and Bialy, have pointed out (see Chapter Twelve), the new method (PCR) does not measure free virus but only highly amplified amounts of viral RNA. This method amplifies an original HIV-RNA signal by many thousand times so that error becomes a major problem in quantitation. That is, it is extremely difficult to know with any precision exactly what the level of starting material might have been. It is one of the problems in HIV/AIDS and other disease research that highly sophisticated molecular measurements are used as surrogate markers for infectious virus units, the only significant units in biological measurements of this kind.

    Kary Mullis, the inventor of PCR, takes a dim view of using PCR in the above manner indicating that it is a very poor substitute for identifying “live” virus (replicating virus) in the blood of an AIDS patient. Most people, including most biologists, do not know that it is almost impossible to isolate live virus from AIDS patients; a crucial point that Duesberg has been making for almost ten years.

    A careful reading of Dr. Duesberg’s criticisms, and the papers themselves, reveals that when one establishes standards to convert PCR results to actual viral numbers, those numbers reflect the same old low levels of infectious HIV (Duesberg and Bialy, see above). That is, there are still no valid measurements that lead one to the conclusion that AIDS patients have high levels even of infectious HIV. But let us suppose the PCR studies are correct and that AIDS patients actually harbor high levels of infectious HIV and that a war of attrition against the immune system, after ten years, finally takes its toll. But it is precisely because of the fact of latency-Duesberg’s second point, above-that such a war is so unlikely. With the high (PCR) viral numbers reported (100,000 HIV per ml blood) every cell in the body would soon be infected. But with this level of infection it becomes impossible to explain the lag period; such an infected person would surely be dead within days or weeks if HIV truly caused AIDS. This is just one of many contradictions present in the latest claims from Nature that the critics of the HIV hypothesis have finally been silenced. In fact, the editor of Nature has, in a flagrant act of censorship, called for Peter Duesberg to quit his role as critic, and he has stealthily used his power as editor to enforce Duesberg’s silence in the journal (“Has Duesberg a right of reply?,” Nature 363: 109, 1993)

    This new research, together with its contradictions and false claims, are just surfacing as the Duesberg collection goes to press. But the reader will get some accurate sense of the state of confusion generated by this research from the recent “Scientific Correspondence” in Nature (375: 193­198, 1995) and from a full discussion of the HIV numbers game by Duesberg and Bialy in Genetica (Supplement, in press,1995), reprinted in Chapter Twelve in this volume.

    This change of purported mechanism of AIDS causality is just the latest example of flip-flopping by the HIV/AIDS research orthodoxy where the emphasis on direct HIV killing needs to be modified in order to accommodate the reality of AIDS natural history. The other most recent “shift” in emphasis involved discarding what was the earliest and most telling characteristic of AIDS, Kaposi’s sarcoma. Kaposi’s sarcoma is no longer considered to be caused by HIV (see Chapter Ten). But very few people take note. Few have the time to follow even the highlights of this enormous literature. Of course, we also are reminded by Dr. Duesberg that the definition of AIDS is completely circular and makes a mockery of its scientific pursuit. If you had Kaposi’s sarcoma, or any other AIDS disease, but no HIV, then you would not receive a diagnosis of AIDS. You would simply enter the hospital record book as a patient with Kaposi’s sarcoma, or with whatever other disease you actually had. No HIV, no AIDS … very simple, but also impossibly irrational since causality is built into the definition”

  545. #548 cooler
    November 16, 2007

    The last four pages of this review were devoted to HIV and its role in AIDS. It appeared to Peter that many of the same contradictions that appeared in the retrovirus/cancer hypothesis also appeared in the HIV/AIDS hypothesis. He systematically began to discuss the weaknesses in HIV as a retrovirus causing immunodeficiency. Included in his criticism back in 1987 were the following crucial points that stand against the hypothesis and that remain completely unanswered by the scientific orthodoxy in charge of AIDS research:

    There is HIV infection and low or no risk of AIDS; therefore, something other than HIV must be involved.
    The long latent period between infection and clinical disease is inconsistent with the short generation time of retroviruses which is only 24­48 hours and with everything known about experimental retroviral disease. AIDS remains as the only claimed retroviral disease outside of the laboratory!
    The levels of actual HIV found in the blood of AIDS patients is too low to account for observed loss of immune function.
    There is no animal model for AIDS.
    HIV is not directly cytocidal; it does not kill T cells.
    All of these points were then, and are now, defended by a close analysis of available data, as you will see. As the reader goes through this collection, it will become clear how steady are these points and how they remain critical and unanswered. The last point is of special interest since, in 1995, eight years later, we find in Nature, arguably the leading science weekly journal in the world, the commentary that, at the same time (a) confirms Peter Duesbereg’s contention (point number 5, above) that the evidence could never have supported direct viral killing; and (b) shifts the standard hypothesis around 180 degrees. The Nature commentary, in an article dealing with HIV, said that: “… an intrinsic cytopathic effect of the virus is no longer credible.” (Wain-Hobson, S. Nature, 373: 102, 1995).

    What very few people realize, including most professors of molecular biology that I know, is that this shift has occurred: that the orthodox view of HIV as a direct killer of human immune cells has been thrown out. This is a crucial issue since the experiments surrounding this new view, while they have received wide acclaim by the AIDS orthodoxy, are seen to be flawed by many other experts (see Nature, Scientific Correspondence 375: 193­198, 1995).

    The new view is that the source of trouble is not direct killing by HIV but rather a cell-mediated killing of HIV-infected cells by the immune system itself (Wei, et al., and Ho, et al. Nature 373: 117­126, 1995). This turn-around was necessitated by the fact that Duesberg’s third point (above) was also true. How could HIV kill so many T cells if one could not detect significant numbers of free HIV in a patient’s blood? This question has remained unanswered until these recent reports. Using new amplification methods to detect HIV, Wei and Ho conclude that, indeed, free virus is found after all. However, as Duesberg and Bialy, have pointed out (see Chapter Twelve), the new method (PCR) does not measure free virus but only highly amplified amounts of viral RNA. This method amplifies an original HIV-RNA signal by many thousand times so that error becomes a major problem in quantitation. That is, it is extremely difficult to know with any precision exactly what the level of starting material might have been. It is one of the problems in HIV/AIDS and other disease research that highly sophisticated molecular measurements are used as surrogate markers for infectious virus units, the only significant units in biological measurements of this kind.

    Kary Mullis, the inventor of PCR, takes a dim view of using PCR in the above manner indicating that it is a very poor substitute for identifying “live” virus (replicating virus) in the blood of an AIDS patient. Most people, including most biologists, do not know that it is almost impossible to isolate live virus from AIDS patients; a crucial point that Duesberg has been making for almost ten years.

    A careful reading of Dr. Duesberg’s criticisms, and the papers themselves, reveals that when one establishes standards to convert PCR results to actual viral numbers, those numbers reflect the same old low levels of infectious HIV (Duesberg and Bialy, see above). That is, there are still no valid measurements that lead one to the conclusion that AIDS patients have high levels even of infectious HIV. But let us suppose the PCR studies are correct and that AIDS patients actually harbor high levels of infectious HIV and that a war of attrition against the immune system, after ten years, finally takes its toll. But it is precisely because of the fact of latency-Duesberg’s second point, above-that such a war is so unlikely. With the high (PCR) viral numbers reported (100,000 HIV per ml blood) every cell in the body would soon be infected. But with this level of infection it becomes impossible to explain the lag period; such an infected person would surely be dead within days or weeks if HIV truly caused AIDS. This is just one of many contradictions present in the latest claims from Nature that the critics of the HIV hypothesis have finally been silenced. In fact, the editor of Nature has, in a flagrant act of censorship, called for Peter Duesberg to quit his role as critic, and he has stealthily used his power as editor to enforce Duesberg’s silence in the journal (“Has Duesberg a right of reply?,” Nature 363: 109, 1993)

    This new research, together with its contradictions and false claims, are just surfacing as the Duesberg collection goes to press. But the reader will get some accurate sense of the state of confusion generated by this research from the recent “Scientific Correspondence” in Nature (375: 193­198, 1995) and from a full discussion of the HIV numbers game by Duesberg and Bialy in Genetica (Supplement, in press,1995), reprinted in Chapter Twelve in this volume.

    This change of purported mechanism of AIDS causality is just the latest example of flip-flopping by the HIV/AIDS research orthodoxy where the emphasis on direct HIV killing needs to be modified in order to accommodate the reality of AIDS natural history. The other most recent “shift” in emphasis involved discarding what was the earliest and most telling characteristic of AIDS, Kaposi’s sarcoma. Kaposi’s sarcoma is no longer considered to be caused by HIV (see Chapter Ten). But very few people take note. Few have the time to follow even the highlights of this enormous literature. Of course, we also are reminded by Dr. Duesberg that the definition of AIDS is completely circular and makes a mockery of its scientific pursuit. If you had Kaposi’s sarcoma, or any other AIDS disease, but no HIV, then you would not receive a diagnosis of AIDS. You would simply enter the hospital record book as a patient with Kaposi’s sarcoma, or with whatever other disease you actually had. No HIV, no AIDS … very simple, but also impossibly irrational since causality is built into the definition

    Richard Strohman PHD UCB MCB professor emeritus, your scientific father

  546. #549 Molecular Entry Claw
    November 16, 2007

    Gramercy Sir John, you’re killing me!!

    One thing can be said for you, when you do post, it is only the strongest and most pertinent arguments you select for publication.

    If you’d care to scroll back to the last “denialist” thread in which you made such an illustrious appearance, you’ll see I have read that Nattrass article so well that I was the first to point out several errors and peculiarities in it and offer to edit it for you in the interest of AIDS Truth. I even tried to engage you in a chitchat about HIV specific reverse
    transcriptase/transcription and Gallo’s Parenzee testimony on background of the Nattrass article, but that was apparently too scientific a topic for your taste.

    When somebody else here repated one of the mistakes I had pointed out about Gallo being the discoverer of retroviruses, your answer, at great length and repetition, was that it was unscientifc to dismiss an article because of trivial errors in the text. You have now chosen to dodge my last post because you suspect I have omitted to look at the attached picture of the author of an article I refer to tangentially?! Well argued, Sir John. Well argued as always. Maybe Harvey, like yourself, is a bit of a looney, but he is still able to manage two consecutive arguments that don’t contradict each other.

    Ok Dr. Noble, let me see you do what you do best, tell us in the face of direct evidence that this from Bennett is not either incoherent nonsense or a suggestion that the slides Al-Bayati “IS CLAIMING COME FROM EJ” aren’t from EJ. My interpretation is that it is an incoherent nonsensical suggestion that Bayati’s slides aren’t from EJ:

    It’s ludicrous – on the Primetime live program with Ms Maggiore they showed the slides that Al-Bayati is claiming to have possession of, and they looked nothing like the slides he is claiming come from EJ. He is simply a brazen deluded fool for trying to convince anyone otherwise.

    http://www.rethinkingaids.com/challenges/bennett-cohen-ejreport.html

  547. #550 Molecular Entry Claw
    November 16, 2007

    This issue of the pathology slides and what they allegedly do and do not show will not be settled by internet gossip (Moore)

    Brave Sir Moore, you are killing me once again! That is a particularly rich coming from YOU of all people. can I have a buck for every time you’ve peddled internet gossip about Christine Maggiore?

    Let me repeat,

    “There you have it chickenshits. Now take Bennett and whoever else makes you feel safe and brave with you, go to LA and explain to Christine Maggiore how those “black dots” in the “enlarged area” is so obviously PCP”

  548. #551 Chris Noble
    November 16, 2007

    Ok Dr. Noble, let me see you do what you do best, tell us in the face of direct evidence that this from Bennett is not either incoherent nonsense or a suggestion that the slides Al-Bayati “IS CLAIMING COME FROM EJ” aren’t from EJ. My interpretation is that it is an incoherent nonsensical suggestion that Bayati’s slides aren’t from EJ.

    Nick Bennett was naturally very skeptical because for some reason that is still beyond comprehension Al-Bayati chose not to use the GMS stained slides. Nick is entirely correct. The slides that were shown to Maggiore on Primetime were not the same ones that appear in Al-Bayati’s reports.

  549. #552 Chris Noble
    November 16, 2007

    Now take Bennett and whoever else makes you feel safe and brave with you, go to LA and explain to Christine Maggiore how those “black dots” in the “enlarged area” is so obviously PCP

    If Maggiore were actually interested in the truth she would have shown the GMS stained slides to an independent certified human pathologist and asked for an opinion as to what they mean.

    Al-Bayati and Maniotis are neither certified pathologists nor independent.

  550. #553 Molecular Entry Claw
    November 16, 2007

    Dr. Noble, “Nick” is suggesting the slides are not from EJ at all. Is he entirely correct?

  551. #554 pat
    November 16, 2007

    “This thread would indeed be easier to follow if everyone did what I’m doing by posting under my own name. But of course the standards are rather different for the likes of MEC, hiding away under his pseudonym, along with “pat” (oh, did I already say that….).”

    It applies only to MEC and pat. All others excepted.

  552. #555 pat
    November 16, 2007

    ” I use criminal not in the legal sense of the word but rather in an ethical sense. In any case, as I have said above, the culpability depends on whether or not you accept the premisses.”

    Obfuscation of language is very much part of the problem. If you want to use the word “criminal” in the ethical sense than the word you are looking for in UNETHICAL.

    People are welcome to use any language they deem necessary but when people start making contrived connections with slaughter, murder and whatnot they loose a sizable chunk of their credibility.

  553. #556 pat
    November 16, 2007

    Franklin,
    which one of the slides listed in the autopsy report are the slides that were shown on prime time?

  554. #557 franklin
    November 16, 2007

    From the autopsy report (page 16):

    Slides RUL, RML, RLL , LUL, LLL show the formalin-inflated lungs sectioned lobe by lobe. All lobes show pink foamy casts in the alveoli with no inflammatory response. GMS stains show teacup-shaped microorganisms in the foamy material in the alveoli.

    A GMS-stained slide of the lung was shown on PrimeTime.

  555. #558 Redeye
    November 16, 2007

    The slide issue is analagous to this:
    I have agonizing pain in my left leg following a fall.
    X-rays are taken of both lower legs.
    One X-ray, of the left lower leg, clearly shows a spiral break in the tibia (that’s the shin bone, Cooler).
    The other X-ray, of the right lower leg, shows perfectly intact tibia and fibula–no break.
    My mom loves me and doesn’t want me to have a broken leg, so she hires a pathologist who looks at the X-rays and says the X-ray of the right leg proves I don’t have a broken leg.
    My mom goes on TV and is shown the X-ray of the left lower leg with the clearly visible fracture, but she still insists that I don’t have a broken leg.
    Both X-rays are really of my legs.
    I am still really hurt and in need of treatment.

  556. #559 cooler
    November 16, 2007

    Read the above post by duesberg and strohman, two UCB MCB professors to see the flaws in the hiv hypothesis, learn from your scientific masters.

  557. #560 franklin
    November 16, 2007

    Hey MEC,

    It seems that an another Anatomic Pathologist has reviewed the autopsy slides, although apparently not at the request of Ms. Maggiore.

    On her web page, Ms. Maggiore quotes Benjamin Ryan as telling her:

    Benjamin Ryan: “Dr Harry Vinters reviewed the autopsy and he told me that he found the pathological finding ‘very well described’ and that it was ‘a very thorough report.’ He also said ‘the HIV encephalitis was extremely severe and the PCP was extremely severe as well.'”

    So according to MEC, Maggiore characterizes the histological evidence for Pneumocystis pneumonia as nothing more than “a mendacious coroner pointing to some black dots and making unsupportable claims,” but a well-respected Anatomic Pathologist characterizes the autopsy slides as showing that the Pneumocystis pneumonia “was extremely severe.”

    If Maggiore is right, why doesn’t she seek the opinion of a licensed physician who is certified in Anatomic Pathology?

  558. #561 Molecular Entry Claw
    November 16, 2007

    But dearest Frankie, what IS wrong with you?! If you would but read on you will see that Christine Maggiore was very interested in the opinion of Dr. Harry Vinters. Unfortunately Dr. Harry Vinters was not the least bit interested in accounting for, expanding on, or explaining his opinion. For some reason his interest in a grieving mother’s search for answers seems to have vanished as soon as the interview with Benjamin Ryan was concluded:

    “Dear Dr. Vinters,

    I am contacting you with regard to an interview you gave to Benjamin Ryan of Gay.com this past December on the subject of the death of my daughter Eliza Jane Scovill.

    I would very much appreciate clarification of some remarks attributed to you in that interview in order to better understand your interpretation of my daughter’s autopsy report.

    Currently, a transcript of the interview is posted online and contains a note that I called your office back in December seeking clarification but to date have received no response. I’m hoping email is a more effective way to reach you and that you will take a moment to reply to the three questions below. The answers are of interest to me personally, and I would also like to post them online. Below please find your quotes and my questions.

    Benjamin Ryan: “Dr Harry Vinters reviewed the autopsy and he told me that he found the pathological finding ‘very well described’ and that it was ‘a very thorough report.’ He also said ‘the HIV encephalitis was extremely severe and the PCP was extremely severe as well.'”

    Approximately how much time did you spent reviewing my daughter’s autopsy report?
    To what do you refer as evidence of “extremely severe” PCP? My understanding of the autopsy report is that there was no inflammation of the lungs and there is only microscopic evidence of PC rather than evidence of a fulminate case of PC pneumonia, and no evidence of death by asphyxiation.
    On the same topic, Benjamin Ryan states: “Vinters said it’s possible to have a low amount of inflammation but still have PCP.” In my daughter’s case, however there was *no* inflammation noted in the autopsy report. Were you correctly quoted by Ryan?

    To what evidence do you refer in your statement that “the HIV encephalitis was extremely severe?” My daughter’s spinal fluid was clear at the ER and remained clear after many weeks of attempts to grow any microbe in culture. A CAT scan performed at the ER shows no swelling of her brain and medical records show no symptoms that would correspond with “extremely severe” encephalitis such as high fever, head pain, or loss of mental acuity.
    I look forward to receiving your reply.

    With appreciation for your time and cooperation,

    Christine Maggiore

    As of today, no reply has been received”

  559. #562 franklin
    November 16, 2007

    Perhaps Vinters was listening that day in Medical School when they tuaght that it is impossible to talk someone out of a delusion by using logic

  560. #563 pat
    November 16, 2007

    “the autopsy slides as showing that the Pneumocystis pneumonia “was extremely severe.”

    How could all the docs at the time have missed severed PCP? Why did it take Ribe 4 month to detect something “severe”

    Flegg thinks it is not a “classical” case of PCP:

    “EJs acute deterioration was not particularly typical of PCP and may have been caused by some other factor or intercurrent infection”.

    this doesn’t sound like he is considering it “extremely severe”

    How common is “severe PCP” with no inflamation?

    Quick quote by JP Moore:

    “I agree completely with Mark Wainberg, an outstanding scientist for whom I have immense personal respect for his stand against AIDS denialists. As you’re obviously one yourself, I have nothing further to say to you, other than to note that I very much hope that Maggiore is prosecuted, convicted and punished for her conduct over the death of her daughter.
    John Moore”

    Needless to say NO charges were ever filed.

  561. #564 pat
    November 16, 2007

    “Perhaps Vinters was listening that day in Medical School when they tuaght that it is impossible to talk someone out of a delusion by using logic”

    I doubt very much that that they teach “impossible”.

    what logic are you referring to? The one which allows Maggiore to be HIV- poseur for profit one day and then an HIV+ profiteer and murderer of her daughter the next? The one that allows a highly specific test to contradict itself repeatedly? The one that allows a failed journalist and HIV authority, who never had to make agonizing treatment decisions for herself or her kids, to write the following tasteless lie: “Maggiore has never had to make agonizing treatment decisions for herself or for her children.”

    What logic were you taught in medical school?

  562. #565 franklin
    November 16, 2007

    How common is “severe PCP” with no inflamation?

    As I’ve already explained on the Intro to HIV Denial Thread, although Al-Bayati and Ms. Maggiore interpret the Coroner’s report as indicating that no inflammation was present in the lungs, from the brief description of the lung histology in the report it seems that the lack of inflammation may refer to the foamy casts within the alveoli and not necessarily to the entire lung:

    Slides RUL, RML, RLL , LUL, LLL show the formalin-inflated lungs sectioned lobe by lobe. All lobes show pink foamy casts in the alveoli with no inflammatory response. GMS stains show teacup-shaped microorganisms in the foamy material in the alveoli.

    So is it the “foamy casts in the alveoli” that have no inflammatory response or is it “all lobes” that have no inflammaotry response?

    Perhaps we will find out if the case ever comes to court, but the significance of noting that the casts found in the alveoli lack an inflammatory response is that it is a “pertinent negative”–the lack of intra-alveolar inflammation argues against the working clinical diagnosis at the time of death, namely of sepsis caused by a community-acquired pneumonia.

    Such a pneumonia leading to sepsis would almost certainly be a bacterial pneumonia and the intra-alveolar exudates would be expected to contain numerous acute inflammatory cells.

    Noting that those acute inflammatory cells are not present within the alveoli is what physicians do as part of a “differential diagnosis,” when they are showing that the initial diagnosis is not surported by the histolgical findings.

    Instead the foamy casts that lack inflammation are typical for Pneumosystis pneumonia and the GMS stains confirm the diagnosis.

    It sounds very straightforward.

  563. #566 Molecular Entry Claw
    November 16, 2007

    Perhaps Vinters was listening that day in Medical School when they tuaght that it is impossible to talk someone out of a delusion by using logic

    Sometimes when you’re running out of things to say it’s better not to say anything Frankie. There is only one school that teaches its students to avoid any personal contact with the people it smears; that teaches its students not to answer any questions from the people it smears; that teaches its students to wish death and eternal hell on the people it smears rather than answer a few simple questions. That school is run by John Moore to disseminate the moral Truth of AIDS.

    Christine Maggiore asked a few questions for the record. If Dr. Vinter’s felt confident, he could simply have answered her and let the people reading her website decide for themselves.

    He turned out to be an irresponsible, heartless chickenshit like the rest of you.

  564. #567 Molecular Entry Claw
    November 16, 2007

    “Dr Harry Vinters reviewed the autopsy and he told me that he found the pathological finding ‘very well described’ and that it was ‘a very thorough report” (Vinters)

    “So is it the “foamy casts in the alveoli” that have no inflammatory response or is it “all lobes” that have no inflammaotry response?

    Perhaps we will find out if the case ever comes to court”
    (Franklin)

    If it was so well described why do we have to wait for a court hearing to find out? If it was so well described, why didn’t it describe the inflamation elsewhere that would have supported the PCP diagnosis?

  565. #568 John Moore
    November 16, 2007

    To MEC: My point was that “Kyle” made a post in which he or she stated that because the Nicoli Nattrass Skeptical Enquirer article contained a photograph caption from which a sub-editor had omitted the word “human” before “retroviruses”, then this meant that:

    1) Nicoli Nattrass was “a liar”;
    2) The entire article was “a lie”.

    Yet when you made an error by stating that the author was a male, when the photographic evidence in the article shows her to be female, you say it’s just an error (or words to that effect).

    By “Kyle’s” logic, then you are “a liar” and everything you have ever posted is “a lie”.

    Of course I don’t personally agree with Kyle’s “logic”, but then I’m not an AIDS denialist.

    And of course I won’t respond to any questions you pose. That would involve debating or discussing science with an AIDS denialist, and our policies on never doing that are widely known.

  566. #569 Lee
    November 16, 2007

    Oh please. Can you guys get out of the mid 90s, yet?
    cooler posts yet another old rant with info that was known wrong even then

    “T