Angry Toxicologist

Stupidity about cancer and meat

There’s a story in the WashPost today about how spicy marinades decrease the heterocyclic amine (HCA) content in grilled meat. They think you should care because HCAs are likely carcinogens. There are many things about this that get my back up so lets make a list:

1) Nobody knows how much cancer HCAs may be causing. As far as I can tell (I’d be glad to be e-mailed some reasearch that disputes this), there isn’t any study that directly links HCAs to human cancer, qualitatively or quantitatively. I’m not saying they’re not carcinogens, I’m pretty certian they are, but the only studies that I know of look at the link between cancer and how much well-done meant someone eats. Well-done meat has more HCAs, but heck, it’s also got a lot more polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, as well as a whole host of other baddies. So we can’t really pin this on HCAs alone.

2) If you’re eating enough meat for HCA risk to be a problem, you’ve got much bigger problems. Namely, risk of serious heart disease. Cut down on the meat.

3) If you’re eating meat that’s well-done, you’re also a bad cook. Beef should be cooked to 135 deg. (internal) for tastiness (that’s medium rare); 140 if you must. By the time you form enough HCAs to be a problem you’ve ruined your dinner. For people that worry about pathogens, consider this: Any bacteria should be on the outside, it’s toast. Also, when was the last time you heard about anyone getting sick from beef that wasn’t ground?

So, what have we learned here? You shouldn’t eat too much meat (we already knew that). You shouldn’t ruin your dinner by overcooking it (we alreday knew that, too). Marinades are good (with the exception of a T-bone/porterhouse/cuts contained therein, I’ll concede this).

Can we stop doing studies that tell us things we already know? I get sick everytime I see that our tax dollars fund these stupid things (like this gem that tells us that runners are healthier).

PS And for goodness sake, don’t follow the advice at the bottom of the article about nuking your meat before grilling. A crime against eaters! Do follow the advice about veggies; grilled portobellos are a wonder.

Comments

  1. #1 Epicanis
    August 25, 2008

    Heck, I object to the term “well done” to begin with – it makes it sound like a term of praise.

    Admittedly, this is coming from someone who for a while would order steak “purple” (these days I prefer “medium-rare”).

  2. #2 Emile
    August 25, 2008

    Quick question: I also found the “runner’s are healthier” study mostly silly (esp. since it was really “people getting aerobic exercise are healthier”) but there was one interesting thing in it…

    The article (haven’t actually read the research) seemed to indicate that they found no negative joint issues with long term running relative to the little-to-no-exercise group. That did surprise me a bit. Should it have?

    Thanks for the cool blog!

  3. #3 Anna
    August 25, 2008

    I take exception to your #2 – that eating meat causes heart disease and cutting down on eating meat lowers the risk. I know “everyone” thinks that, but I think there is a lot more evidence that excessive sugar and unsprouted grain consumption drives heart disease (and lots of other diseases). Meat (not to mention other nutritious parts of the animal like the fat, bones, cartilage, and the offal) are a big part of our dietary history – grain and sugar are not. I’d last a lot longer and healthier on a properly prepared all-meat diet than on an all-vegetable or all grain-diet (though I would prefer to have naturally raised (pastured/grassfed) or wild game meat instead of CAFO meat).

    Otherwise, I tend to agree with all your other points. And geeze, these “scientists” are bad steak shoppers as well as cooks. Round steak? I would either grind it into hamburger, make stew, or feed it to a dog. But never, ever, would I serve it as steak. It’s never tender and often tastes like liver when overcooked. Electric skillets to cook steaks? Maybe for pancakes, but not steak. Broil or grill steak, pan frying would usually be my last resort (unless done right, too many juices release and the meat steams).

    I’ve been doing more grilling and BBQing the past few years, and as I learn more about proper technique, I realize many people don’t even use their grill properly. Not only do they overcook the meat (too long on the grill), but they generally only cook over direct heat/the flame, instead of searing quickly and finishing with indirect heat, plus other no-nos, like smashing the meat with a spatula, cutting into the meat, etc. Indirect heat mostly sidesteps the issues of the fat dripping onto the hot coals and HCA formation (I also use a pan under the grill to collect the fat) no matter what the cut.

    Also, by cooking the less tender cuts (often roasts and stew meat), one can reduce HCAs, too, because they cook very slowly, often in liquid in a pot, and never should be over a direct heat source for more than a short time (to sear). These cuts are also more budget friendly and super easy. For instance, Saturday morning I slow roasted/smoked a pork shoulder for about 9 hours over low indirect heat (only needed to make minor temp adjustments a couple of times and add wood chips occasionally) and served Carolina-style pulled pork that night for 7 people, with leftovers. That left lots of time for housecleaning, making coleslaw, etc. and was far less expensive and more relaxed than grilling individual steaks to order.

    I don’t even want to get started on that silly runner study that is popping up everywhere. Sheesh! Glad to see you can see right through it.

  4. #4 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
    August 25, 2008

    Back in my ski-bum days I was a chef at a high end restaurant in Jackson, WY. When someone would order a steak well done it took everything in my power to not just put a top on it and cook it until it was a brick. I can never figure out why someone would do that to a prime cut of beef. Why not order something with actual flavor?

    Now that’s not to say that a slow braised cut that is essentially “well done” like a a roast for Beef in Barolo or beef cheeks or braised pork ribs or something equally mouth watering is bad. By no means.

    For instance, Saturday morning I slow roasted/smoked a pork shoulder for about 9 hours over low indirect heat (only needed to make minor temp adjustments a couple of times and add wood chips occasionally) and served Carolina-style pulled pork that night for 7 people, with leftovers.

    must try a smoker….. ;-)

    I have no comments on HCAs because I know next to nothing about them and worry even less.

  5. #5 John Lew
    August 26, 2008

    Dear AngryToxicologist,

    Great writings. Hope you don’t mind if I just share with you some other perspectives at:

    http://lews-info.blogspot.com/search/label/Diet

  6. #6 Anna
    August 26, 2008

    Rev,

    You don’t need a smoker (though I would LOVE to have one!). I use my ordinary Weber propane gas grill with one side of the grate removed for easy wood chip replenishing. Then hot smoke with only one burner turned on low to medium or coals to the side (adjust burner or coals to keep your temp gauge 170-250蚌 and you can see smoke leaking). Place the containers of water soaked wood chips directly over the lit burner (or coals).

    I place the dry rub-spiced shoulder roast on the remaining grate on the unheated side with an old shallow pan underneath the grate to catch any drippings (prevents flare-ups and messes, as well as saves a nice, rich meat juice when the fat is poured off).

    Then just leave it alone for long enough (my 4.5# chilled roast took 9 hours – less for room-temp meat), so that the meat is tender and ready to fall apart. It is a mistake to take it off too soon (though you can remove from the BBQ after 3.5 hours and continue slow cooking in a covered container in a 300-325蚌 oven for a few more hours or a Crock Pot). It will be “done” when it reaches the “done” temperature, but it won’t be “fork-tender”. That takes time and patience, but very little hands-on work.

    I highly recommend any of Bruce Aidell’s meat/pork books, Shannon Hayes’ Farmer and the Grill as well as The Grassfed Gourmet, and Jo Robinson’s Pasture Perfect books. The latter three are specifically geared toward the unique cooking requirements of pastured meats and poultry, but they’re great with conventional meats too.

  7. #7 Woodwose
    August 26, 2008

    I had assumed that ancestors who were prone to cancer from eating fire cooked meat had been removed from the gene pool in he interval of time from the invention of cooking fires until now. Isn’t that how evoltion works?

    Personally I prefer the cook to just cuddle up to my steaks while he BBQs everyone else’s. Natural cow temperature is the ideal end point. Cow sashimi … yahoo!

  8. #8 Phil Boncer
    August 27, 2008

    Actually no, that isn’t how evolution works if the disease or problem doesn’t usually hit until you’re past childbearing age. Until very recently, life expectancy for humans was in the 30′s on average — most people died of acute diseases, starvation, injury, or tribal warfare long before they were old enough to worry about dietary cancer or arthritis or Alzheimers or any number of other problems that most people now live long enough to worry about.

    For most of our history, marriageable age was about 14, children soon thereafter. From a standpoint of evolutionary pressure, once you’ve lived ling enough to raise your kids and send them out, the primary mechanism of evolution is done and anything after that is by chance or by side effect. This latter one is significant; sometimes you’ll have an adaptation that helps survival when young but which creates a problem later in life — such an adaptation will be beneficial for propagating your genes, and thus will be selected for, even if it eventually is harmful to the individual.

    PhilB

  9. #9 Amar
    August 27, 2008

    Anna,
    As a veteran of the fine dining world, the ‘only’ way to properly cook a good steak is to pan fry it and then finish it either in a salamander or oven. the pan frying seals in the juice and then the salamander or oven provides the indirect heat to finish it off. now, if you like your prime cuts of meat to taste like burned, charred flesh, then by all means, fire up that bbq …

  10. #10 speedwell
    August 28, 2008

    Thank you, AT. I appreciate this post. I’m a vegetarian, partly because Mom died of hormone-dependent breast cancer and I’m not taking any chances with the hormones in meat. This is only one thing I’m doing… getting the rest of the way down to optimum weight would help even more, I’m aware. I don’t like the slipshod way most meat is processed in this country anyway, so if I was ever to eat meat again, I’d make friends with a good butcher, or maybe even an organic farmer.

    That said, the biggest reason I appreciate your post is that when I tell people I don’t eat meat, they nod sagaciously and tell me they understand perfectly. And then they tell me the latest trendy thing that they heard is wrong with meat, shake their heads and sigh, and say (unconvincingly) that they wish they too could cut back on their meat eating. For a while, the “latest trendy thing” has been this carcinogen thing from seared meat. Phooey. I needed something to tell people who assume I share their ignorance.

  11. #11 Anna
    August 28, 2008

    Amar,

    I’m sure you are right, but I don’t have a commercial kitchen with a salamander, high BTU range, and super efficient ventilation system to pan fry the way a chef can. Residential kitchens aren’t very well closed off from the rest of the house in most homes now, so even with a good range hood, the whole house is permeated with aerosolized meat aroma (I guess that could be a good thing). Living in So Cal, the gas grill is always ready, just outside the kitchen patio door, and weather is not usually a factor, so instead of stinking and splattering up the kitchen (& rest of the house) I most often cook steaks on the grill.

    But I think my grill technique is very similar to the commercial pan-fry/salamander method you describe. When I am preparing steaks, I heat the grill to high to burn off the grates (my thermometer goes to 600蚌 and the needle can’t go higher), sear 1-3 minutes on each side, adjust one burner to medium or medium-high and turn the other two off, move steaks to the “cold/off” side, close the lid and cook until rare or medium rare (4-6 minutes for smaller steaks, up to about 20-some minutes for a small roast, like London broil or tri-tip (sometimes I use a wireless temp probe on these). I use the “touch” method to determine doneness for steaks. Remove, cover loosely with foil and rest a few minutes. Not as good a method as a restaurant-prepared steak, perhaps, but it seems to work for us and I don’t think the steaks I cook taste burned or charred (smoking intentionally with slowly cooked meat is a different thing entirely). I rarely have flare-ups, but since so many people grill over flame all the time, I’m sure flare-ups and burned meat exteriors are more typical with grilled meat and produce more HCAs. So I can understand your disdain for BBQ’d steaks in that way.

    Speedwell, we eat quite a bit of meat because I think it is healthier (just as we don’t eat processed soy products because of the phyoestrogens (plant hormones), goitrogens, and mineral-binding phytates), but I avoid the conventionally-raised (CAFO) meat, too, probably for many of the same reasons you do. Have you thought about sourcing meat that doesn’t have added hormone or antibiotic residues, such as grass-fed from small producers? It’s available, but initially, takes a bit of sleuthing to make the connections with the right sources. Having freezer space helps, because it sometimes is necessary to buy in bulk when purchasing direct from the producer. But in the long run, that saves money and time, too.

    On another note, Speedwell, with your BC worries, if you haven’t had your Vit D levels checked, you might look into it. The test is 25 (OHD) and increasing numbers of doctors are ordering it with routine lab work for annual physicals. Low Vit D levels are increasing showing to be associated with BC and colon cancer. Emerging Vit D research is very promising and exciting (let’s hope Big Pharma doesn’t notice and hone in on the act with Vit D analog development, though). Current dietary and supplement guidelines for Vit D RDA are woefully too low and are meant as a minimum level to prevent rickets in babies & infants (rickets incidence is up now that kids are eating low fat-low fat-soluble vitamin diets), indoors too much and “slathered” with Vit D-blocking sunscreen. A healthy body with strong bones, intact metabolism, and fully functional immune system (to be alert to cancer cells!) needs far more Vit D, which is not plentiful in food (though pastured, grassfed animals are a decent source, especially liver, but shaded, indoor CAFO animal foods are not). It’s either sun exposure and/or supplementation for most of us, if we want adequate Vit D status. And ability to synthesize Vit D precursors in the skin goes down around age 40, plus requires adequate cholesterol levels…oh my, I’ll stop now.

  12. #12 Amar
    August 28, 2008

    Anna,
    As a Southern Californian myself, my (charcoal) grill is also right outside my kitchen, and gets quite a bit of use (in exactly the way you described!). another tip that totally surprised me when i first saw it is to brush your nice steak with clarified butter when finishing it. if you do it right, you can get a really nice ‘toasted’ texture on the outside of the steak. but you are right, the smell of meat in the house is great until you smell your dinner on your clothes the next morning when getting ready for work! i used to get almost all of my meat from our restaurant sources (the best way to get prime cuts) but since i am no longer at the restaurant, i have been (passively) looking for a local butcher, and one just opened up in the town next door but i have yet to go, do you have any suggestions?

  13. #13 Anna
    August 29, 2008

    Amar,

    I buy most of my meat (pork, beef, lamb, & goat) from a local “hobby farm” in the rural section of my county. I can’t tell you who it is because basically they are a couple who raise some backyard animals for their own food (and the wife wants to work at home and enjoy a rural lifestyle), and they sell the extra to make the effort and expenses even out. Plus I know the animals are humanely cared for and not full of hormones or antibiotics and garbage rations, etc. Plus, I can get items that are harder to find these days, such as liver, oxtail, kidney, heart, etc. I especially wouldn’t want those items if they came from CAFO sources. I trust the “cleanness” of the offal at my local source.

    Technically, it’s not legal for me to buy their meat, though. The animals are slaughtered at the farm and processed at a state-licensed custom meat butcher (everything is beautifully wrapped and well frozen), which is legal for personal consumption of the animal owner, but not for retail sale to others (must be USDA inspected, which means shipping the stressed animals, larger orders, and all sorts of other problems). If you’ve ever read any of Joel Salatin’s books, particularly Everything I Want To Do Is Illegal: War Stories from the Local Food Front, then you’ll know why that barrier for small producers and discriminating consumers is asinine. But that’s another rant against excessive and counterproductive regulations.

    I also bought a pastured Wyoming bison (processed, wrapped and frozen) in May from http://www.glaciergrown.com. That *is* a legal transaction because technically I bought and paid for the bison before it was processed to my specifications, so the processor is working for me and all the wrapping is stamped with my name on it. The bison ranch owners have family connections to the county where I live, so they made a co-op offer to my local produce CSA box program, and delivered the orders to the buyers at a local pickup point. This is my first bulk purchase and I plan to do it again at the next opportunity.

    I’ve been pretty happy with the bison, though next time I would have the steaks cut thicker, more small roasts and fewer steaks, and more ground meat, with fat added in if possible (bison is very, very lean and I have to add some of my home-rendered lard to the ground meat). Bison steaks must be cooked quite rare and over lower heat, because it gets tough very fast due to it’s leanness. It also is much redder, so I don’t go by color for doneness – temp or touch only.

    As much as I love a good steak or burger (mixed with grated parmesan for flavor and moisture!), I really love braised meat both for the flavor and convenience (not much hands on time-great leftovers-crowd pleaser-budget and kid friendly-mineral rich juices if cooked with bone left in). Slow cooked meat really takes the pressure off dinner prep on busy days. And there are so many great tasting ethnic and regional recipes for variety: Jamaican Curried Goat, Osso Buco alla Milanese, Moroccan lamb tagine, Oxtail Soup, Carnitas, Ropa Vieja, Steak & Kidney Stew, as well as the classic Sunday Pot Roast. But that takes a different cooking schedule and mindset that seems to be lost on many rushed contemporary cooks, who can only think of steaks and boneless chicken breasts when cooking time is short.

    Sorry, AT, I guess I really went off on a tangent. I just have a lot more faith in the older cooking traditions. I just don’t think a contemporary boring boneless chicken breast recipe can hold a candle to good, hearty old fashioned regional meat dishes, no matter what the HCA count. And it’s nice to see that even the researchers in the HCA study couldn’t choose and cook a steak properly, at least some of your readers can.

  14. #14 snappir
    September 2, 2008

    Back in the late 70s I’ve read somewhere that BBQ meat,chicken..etc, anything on bbq with charcoal is causing Cancer. I never liked any meat, including chicken meat. Yes, chicken is a meat, isn’t it ? So, for me to eat something that was alive..?!…I was always disgusted. Back then the science clearly and with doubt proved, that anything burned is not good as food.
    Yes, I hate BBQ, its disgusting smell, and its pollution. Comes evening and the stupid neighbors start playing with their BBQs and spreading pollution all around, without any idea(I’m sure many by now know about dangers, but ignore it for the sake of enjoying the meat for a few moments).
    I’m sure many cancer victims today come from this environment, the BBQ eaters.
    People, learn one fact: BBQ is your path to cancer. FRYING is the same thing.
    FRYING in Teflon pans is an accelerated path to cancer.
    BTW, WALMART already realized that the sales of TEFLON products are very slow and they figured out the problem. So now, you can find in WALMART many frypans made with PORCELAIN. Excellent!
    They are expensive but WORTH it!
    STOP eating MEAT NOW!
    And start eating more vegetables and fruits, rice, an try to by everything ORGANIC. The good supermarkets now carry a lot of organic products and at almost same price as the ones with pesticides.
    Grapes organic, Bananas organic, PathWay Cereals are ALL Organic and they are the BEST, plus some are without WHEAT or GLUTEN.
    Eat spreads made from Almonds, Sunflower seeds, and others. Eat less Wheat, and more pure Rye Bread….etc.

  15. #15 Xerxes1729
    September 2, 2008

    So, for me to eat something that was alive..?!…I was always disgusted.
    Unless you subsist on water and salt, you eat things that were alive.

    I’m sure many cancer victims today come from this environment, the BBQ eaters.
    I’m sure many people with cancer eat grilled meat. Many people with cancer also eat steamed vegetables and watch “The Price Is Rights”, but it doesn’t mean that either causes cancer.

    Eat less Wheat, and more pure Rye Bread….etc.
    Why? Rye is closely related to wheat, and still contains gluten.

  16. #16 degustibus
    September 2, 2008

    Do follow the advice about veggies; grilled portobellos are a wonder.

    A shroom is a veggie! Dang, learn something new every day.

  17. #17 speedwell
    September 3, 2008

    “Yes, I hate BBQ, its disgusting smell, and its pollution.”

    Stick it in your ear. Last night I made a batch of grilled soy ribs with a side of grilled eggplant, okra, and tomatoes that would make your tongue jump up and slap you. I live in an apartment and my two next door neighbors were out there with their little grills too. By the way, I use a Cobb grill, the one so well insulated you can sit it on a tablecloth while cooking, and that takes six whole briquets to cook your whole meal. And the fumes kept allll the skeeters away! I love BBQ season.

    “….etc.”

    Yeah, it’s that fanatical, monomaniacal, religious devotion to micromanaging everyone else’s diet that really convinces people they need to become vegetarians, yup.

    Anna, I’m looking into that Vitamin D stuff. I’m 42 this year and work in IT in Texas… which means I rarely venture out in the sun. I had been drinking fortified soymilk, but lately I’ve been making my own which is of course not fortified. If there’s anything to this, you may well have saved my life by pointing it out. Much appreciated.

  18. #18 Interrobang
    September 3, 2008

    I’ve got to quibble about two things — first of all, if you have a cranky digestion, you may want to eat beef that’s more well done, albeit not charred. (I prefer my steak medium well; anything rarer than that gives me cramps.)

    Also, whoever came up with the idea of butter-finishing a steak needs to be drug out into the street and shot. Why in hell anyone thinks that steaks need more grease, and/or that butter and beef are compatible flavours (don’t blame me, I musta been Jewish in a past life) is obviously a) a lactase-persistent freak, and b) carrying their taste buds in their toes.

  19. #19 Anna
    September 3, 2008

    Speedwell,

    At the risk of micromanaging your diet :-), why are you drinking soy juice, I mean soy pseudo-milk, and soy ribs (who knew soybeans had a rib cage?)? Aside from soy “pretend” foods being industrially processed beyond recognition (in ways and amounts that soy traditionally would never be consumed in Asian diets), your homemade soy juice aside, have you looked into soy beyond the marketing hype?

    I can’t tell if you are male or female, but one of the many reasons I don’t serve industrial soy (most soy consumed in the US is GMO) to my family (only traditionally fermented soy sauce and cooked edamame now and then) is that my middle aged husband and growing son certainly don’t need a lot of exposure to phyto-estrogens. As a perimenopausal female, I’m finding phyto-estrogens just exacerbate the imbalance with my low progesterone levels.

    Soy, especially industrial soy, has characteristics that few seem to be aware of, with a lot of phytates (prevents nutrient absorption), high omega 6 FA load, etc. Soy is well known for goitrogen properties (interferes in thyroid function – I’m hypothyroid, so yet another reason to steer clear). And it has a relatively short history as a food for humans, only a few thousand years.

    A fascinating look at soy (the good, the bad, and the so-so) is found in Kaayla Daniels book, The Whole Soy Story: The Dark Side of America’s Favorite Health Food.

    Ok, unsolicited micromanaging mode off. Good luck with the Vit D, too. I’m sure you were joking about saving your life, but if my comment was useful, I’m happy.

  20. #20 Phil Boncer
    September 4, 2008

    interrobang wrote: “… I prefer my steak medium well; anything rarer than that gives me cramps. … Why in hell anyone thinks that steaks need more grease, and/or that butter and beef are compatible flavours (don’t blame me, I musta been Jewish in a past life) is obviously a) a lactase-persistent freak, and b) carrying their taste buds in their toes.”

    One of my favorite dishes is something you’d not be compatible with. It’s a traditional Ethiopian dish called “kitfo”, which is basically ground steak simmered in butter just to body temperature and served warm and raw, on a buckwheat pancake called “injera”. They’ve been doing this for hundreds of years (if not thousands), so some people must find it compatible. :)

    (Although perhaps not many, or at least not many Westerners. As white guy, I had to eat there several times and essentially prove my culinary adventurousness to them before the waitress would let me actually order it.)

    PhilB

  21. #21 Anna
    September 7, 2008

    Kitfo sounds great to me, Phil. I love to top a good rare ribeye with a generous pat of grassfed butter. Very complementary, in fact.

    Find a recipe for fitfo for me and I’ll attempt it with ground bison for you and Kristine sometime.

    When we were in Rome this summer we sought out a recommended restaurant in the old stockyard part of the city (not a touristy part of town, for sure). The house specialty is offal, for which I am developing a nutritional appreciation (the flavor appreciation is a bit slower, admittedly, but I’m working on it when I have good opportunities). The dish I wanted to order was, I think, lungs (the menu wasn’t translated), but the waiter wouldn’t let me order it. Instead he suggested my second choice, an assortment of offal (kidney, liver, heart, as far as I could tell) in a red wine reduction gravy.

    The wait service was a bit chilly early on in the dinner (I think it is more of a neighborhood “joint”), but by the time I had finished my entree, they had really warmed up and after our espressos were finished (even my 10 yo old had an unsweetened cappuccino!) they sent us off with a couple of pieces of their logo-ed pottery, smiles and waves. Wasn’t the dish I most savored on the trip, but it was the most satisfying on a number of levels.

  22. #22 Phil Boncer
    September 8, 2008

    I usually find that before making something unfamiliar, it’s nice if possible to try it made by someone who already knows how to do it. We should get together and go eat at the Red Sea sometime.

    Also, the Linkery, which if you’re not familiar with it is a restaurant near us that specializes in slow and locally sourced foods, is wrking up an offal menu, and has some dishes already.

    PhilB

  23. #23 Anna
    September 10, 2008

    Love the Linkery! but haven’t been to their new location yet. Wish it wasn’t so far away (you and Kristine, too, but then again if the Linkery was closer, I’d be lazy and eat out too much instead of cooking.

    Red Sea sounds good, too.

  24. #24 Msn Nickleri
    October 16, 2008

    Kitfo sounds great to me, Phil. I love to top a good rare ribeye with a generous pat of grassfed butter. Very complementary, in fact.

    Find a recipe for fitfo for me and I’ll attempt it with ground bison for you and Kristine sometime.

    When we were

  25. #25 msn nickleri
    November 3, 2008

    The wait service was a bit chilly early on in the dinner (I think it is more of a neighborhood “joint”), but by the time I had finished my entree, msn nickleri they had really warmed up and after our espressos were finished (even my 10 yo old had an unsweetened cappuccino!) they sent us off with a couple of pieces of their logo-ed pottery, smiles and waves. Wasn’t the dish I most savored on the trip, but it was the most satisfying on a number of levels.

  26. #26 neyazsak
    November 5, 2008

    I usually find that before making something unfamiliar, it’s nice if possible to try it made by someone who already knows how to do it. We should get together and go eat at the Red Sea sometime.

    Also, the Linkery, which if you’re not familiar with it is a restaurant near us that specializes in slow and locally sourced foods, is wrking up an offal menu, and has some dishes already.

  27. #27 msn ?ifre 蓷lma
    November 11, 2008

    Love the Linkery! but haven’t been to their new location yet. Wish it wasn’t so far away (you and Kristine, too, but then again if the Linkery was closer, I’d be lazy and eat out too much instead of cooking.

    Red Sea sounds good, too.

  28. #28 spor haberleri
    January 1, 2009

    thanks..best regards..

  29. #29 seks shop
    January 5, 2009

    seks shop

  30. #30 zay覺flama
    January 17, 2009
  31. #31 erotik shop
    January 17, 2009
  32. #32 muhabbet
    March 22, 2009

    Thx

  33. #33 mIRC
    March 24, 2009

    Thanks you

  34. #34 Sohbet
    March 28, 2009

    thanks

  35. #35 OUtdoor Gas Grills
    September 11, 2009

    Ya, maybe its bad for you, but its so good. I like my steaks charred on the outside and red in the center.

  36. #36 China Wholesale
    December 1, 2009

    Love the Linkery! but haven’t been to their new location yet. Wish it wasn’t so far away (you and Kristine, too, but then again if the Linkery was closer, I’d be lazy and eat out too much instead of cooking.

  37. #37 links of london
    January 25, 2010

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  38. #38 Rochester NY Real Estate
    September 28, 2011

    I think it’s pretty silly that all of these studies are coming out. It won’t me long before we’re told it’s not safe to eat anything, lol. Me, I like my steaks nice and rare. Guess I’m safe ;)

  39. #39 tayfun
    April 17, 2012

    Ben grassfed tereya覺 c繹mert bir pat ile iyi bir nadir ribeye Baa seviyorum. ok tamamlay覺c覺, asl覺nda.

    Benim i癟in fitfo i癟in bir re癟ete bulun ve ben bazen sizin ve Kristine i癟in zemin bison ile deneriz.

  40. #40 Vaiilant servisi
    April 17, 2012

    Ben genellikle m羹mk羹nse al覺覺lmad覺k bir ey yapmadan 繹nce, zaten nas覺l yapaca覺n覺 bilen birisi taraf覺ndan yap覺lan denemek g羹zel buluyorum. Biz bir araya gelip bazen K覺z覺l Deniz ile yemek gitmek gerekir.

    Ayr覺ca, aina deilseniz Linkery, yava ve yerel kaynakl覺 g覺dalar konusunda uzmanlam覺 bize yak覺n bir restoran olan bir sakatat men羹 wrking, ve zaten baz覺 yemekler vard覺r.

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