sunspot thread

By popular request sunspot has his/her own thread. This is the only thread that sunspot can post to, and all replies to any comment to sunspot should go here.

Comments

  1. #1 Martin Vermeer
    December 11, 2010

    Bout time

  2. #3 P. Lewis
    December 11, 2010

    Let’s now hope for a Maunder minimum, or at worst a Dalton minimum…

  3. #4 shinsko
    December 11, 2010

    P. Lewis –

    >Let’s now hope for a Maunder minimum

    Very funny. I laughed out loud.

  4. #5 chek
    December 11, 2010

    … and in breaking news, markets were thrown into turmoil today as uptake of hits to tinyurls and crank websites nosedived this week.

    Analysts say this may just be a random trough, and that they’ll have a better understanding in 30 years time.

  5. #6 dhogaza
    December 11, 2010

    Enjoy the thread while you can … eventually, sunspot will show up!

  6. #7 barry
    December 11, 2010

    Sunspot:

    “Don’t you think there should be an independent peer review of the temp record?”

    There is peer review every time a paper is published on the temperature record. This goes for CRU, GISS, NOAA and UAH papers.

    The data passes through a series of quality controls, starting with the originating Met offices through to the institutes that produce the temp records.

    Different institutes use slightly different data for the surface records, but there is plenty of overlap. Can’t be helped. They all use different methodologies and they all come up with extremely similar results – virtually identical long-term trends for example. The biggest outlier is the satellite UAH record, which has a thirty year trend (1979 – present) that is 0.04C/dec different at most from the others. The satellite records use completely different data to the surface records (no overlap), and RSS 30-year global trend is right in the middle of the surface records.

    So how many institutes produce global temperature records?

    US – Goddard Institute for Space Studies
    US – National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration
    US – University of Alabama, Huntsville
    UK – University of East Anglia
    US – Remote Sensing Systems
    European Centre for Medium-Range Weather Forecasts
    Japan Meteorological Agency

    Russia also does one, but I’m not familiar with it, and other satellite-based temp records have been derived from the MSU data by other groups.

    There have also been numerous blog attempts by skeptics and others using a variety of data and methodologies. This is the result from a very skeptical blog. They say –

    “First the obvious, a skeptic, denialist, anti-science blog published a greater trend than Phil Climategate Jones. What IS up with that?

    … Several skeptics will dislike this post. They are wrong, in my humble opinion. While winning the public “policy” battle outright places pressure for a simple unified message [!], the data is the data and the math is the math. We”re stuck with it, and this result. In my opinion, it is a better method.”

    http://noconsensus.wordpress.com/2010/03/24/thermal-hammer/

    They also used raw (unadjusted data). Since late last year, there has been a slew of blog attempts, and they all come out closely matching the official records, whether raw or adjusted data is used. Some bloggers have even used a larger data set than GHCN.

    So sunspot, you’ve got peer review on published papers, analysis by different groups with different data and different methods, comparison with raw and adjusted data, and virtually the same result for long-term trends with all of them, the differences being a few hundredths of a degree C between them.

    And no UHI contamination in the satellite records.

    How can you hold that understanding of the global temperature record is not robust?

  7. #8 barry
    December 11, 2010

    Or that any more validation is necessary?

  8. #9 Mike
    December 11, 2010

    I would engage sunspot on this thread, but honestly, some of his comments just made my head hurt.

    Once a conspiracy theorist, always a conspiracy theorist. It just doesn’t matter what the data says at all.

  9. #10 spyder
    December 11, 2010

    “A lot of people in high places don’t believe the temp data”

    Hey man, howz it hanging.
    Dude, what’s up with this weather.
    I am too stoned to get up, could you check it out for me?
    Dude, oh wow man, it’s cold. Like snow is falling.

  10. #11 Chris W
    December 11, 2010

    Calling Mr Sun-Cretin …

  11. #12 Jeremy C
    December 12, 2010

    Barry,

    Why go to the effort of your post you know Maunder Minimum will just ignore you because he/she is not asking questions but ideological motivated.

    But thanks anyway

  12. #13 Bernard J.
    December 12, 2010

    I have a challenge for Foulspot.

    For his first post on his eponymous thread, can he follow up on his statement:

    A lot of people in high places don’t believe the temp data.

    by answering the question that I’ve put to him [twice](http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2010/12/rosegate_rose_does_to_data_wha_1.php#comment-2993631) [before](http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2010/12/rosegate_rose_does_to_data_wha_1.php#comment-2996398) – how were the biosphere and the hydrosphere pursuaded to join the conspiracy?

    If he truly believes that the global temperature record is falsely indicating anthropogenic (or otherwise) warming, then he should be able to give a properly referenced (without tinyurls) and logically argued counter to the slew of empirical evidence that reflects the many independent temperature records.

    I suggest that he will not be able to do so.

  13. #14 Bernard J.
    December 12, 2010

    I have a challenge for Foulspot.

    For his first post on his eponymous thread, can he follow up on his statement:

    A lot of people in high places don’t believe the temp data.

    by answering the question that I’ve put to him [twice](http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2010/12/rosegate_rose_does_to_data_wha_1.php#comment-2993631) [before](http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2010/12/rosegate_rose_does_to_data_wha_1.php#comment-2996398) – how were the biosphere and the hydrosphere pursuaded to join the conspiracy?

    If he truly believes that the global temperature record is falsely indicating anthropogenic (or otherwise) warming, then he should be able to give a properly referenced (without tinyurls) and logically argued counter to the slew of empirical evidence that reflects the many independent temperature records.

    I suggest that he will not be able to do so.

  14. #15 Marco
    December 12, 2010

    Do you guys really believe sunspot will show up here? His whole reason for posting on deltoid was to wreck threads. This hardly does that job, now, does it?

  15. #16 Dan L.
    December 12, 2010

    Do you guys really believe sunspot will show up here?

    If he doesn’t, good riddance, eh?

  16. #17 Dan L.
    December 12, 2010

    Do you guys really believe sunspot will show up here?

    If he doesn’t, good riddance, eh?

  17. #18 Dan L.
    December 12, 2010

    Do you guys really believe sunspot will show up here?

    If he doesn’t, good riddance, eh?

  18. #19 Dan L.
    December 12, 2010

    Do you guys really believe sunspot will show up here?

    If he doesn’t, good riddance, eh?

  19. #20 Dan L.
    December 12, 2010

    Do you guys really believe sunspot will show up here?

    If he doesn’t, good riddance, eh?

  20. #21 Dan L.
    December 12, 2010

    Do you guys really believe sunspot will show up here?

    If he doesn’t, good riddance, eh?

  21. #22 Dan L.
    December 12, 2010

    Do you guys really believe sunspot will show up here?

    If he doesn’t, good riddance, eh?

  22. #23 Dan L.
    December 12, 2010

    Do you guys really believe sunspot will show up here?

    If he doesn’t, good riddance, eh?

  23. #24 Dan L.
    December 12, 2010

    Do you guys really believe sunspot will show up here?

    If he doesn’t, good riddance, eh?

  24. #25 Starwatcher
    December 12, 2010

    So if we are talking about issues that appear where sunspots and climate intersect, I suppose we are talking about how galactic cosmic rays modulate low altitude clouds?

    I don’t follow climate change a great deal, so my apologies if this common knowledge; I’ve often heard of a possible link between low altitude cloud formation and galactic cosmic rays but rarely see numbers in these claims. What is the density of relevant CCN’s? How much is this density changed by GCR’s? How sensitive is cloud formation to the density of CCN’s? How sensitive is the formation of CCN’s to ultra fine ionized molecule clusters?

  25. #26 Hank Roberts
    December 12, 2010

    He has a new userid?

  26. #27 jakerman
    December 12, 2010
  27. #28 Steve L
    December 12, 2010

    I went to a sit-down birthday party yesterday. I told the guy beside me that I had a passion for climate. His first comment back to me was Al Gore (“trying to suppress dissent by calling deniers flat-earthers, etc”). Then to Great Global Warming Swindle (“why aren’t they showing that in schools, too?”). The climate has changed before. Then to the climategate emails(“how come nobody knows about this?”). Back to Al Gore (“he makes me mad because he’s making a fortune off of global warming”). He then talked about predictions of ice age in 1970’s. I tried to keep him on topic and just have him focus a little deeper on any of these things. But it carried on. My spouse was mad at me, but I really thought I could learn something if I remained engaged. We ended with a lot of stuff about how bad Obama is (57 states, “corpseman”), censorship of Ann Coulter, and how Mount St Helens demonstrates the Grand Canyon could have been caused by one massive flood. (Note neither he nor I is from the US, and the party wasn’t in the US.)

    I hadn’t really heard about any of that last stuff. He thought it made the point that the MSM doesn’t cover things fairly. It would be easy to dismiss him, but on everything besides politics he seemed okay.

    What did I learn? I think I learned that conflating issues with political personalities ruins the ability of some people to see clearly. I think I learned that it would be better to have a discussion like this if we had a computer so that he could show his sources (i.e. I could show him that nobody is being censored), and then we could both look into things a bit deeper from there. So, yeah, I guess I didn’t learn anything new.

  28. #29 Bernard J.
    December 12, 2010

    [Sunwatcher protests](http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2010/12/sunspot_thread.php#comment-2999484):

    I don’t follow climate change a great deal…

    which contrasts with the rest of his leading screed:

    So if we are talking about issues that appear where sunspots and climate intersect, I suppose we are talking about how galactic cosmic rays modulate low altitude clouds?

    and

    1. I’ve often heard of a possible link between low altitude cloud formation and galactic cosmic rays but rarely see numbers in these claims. What is the density of relevant CCN’s [sic]?
    2. How much is this density changed by GCR’s [sic]?
    3. How sensitive is cloud formation to the density of CCN’s [sic]?
    4. How sensitive is the formation of CCN’s [sic] to ultra fine ionized molecule clusters?

    For someone who doesn’t “follow climate change a great deal” Starspot seems to have some of the Denialati’ smore abstruse climatological tropes down pat.

    I wonder why?

  29. #30 Chris O'Neill
    December 12, 2010

    Steve L:

    and how Mount St Helens demonstrates the Grand Canyon could have been caused by one massive flood. (Note neither he nor I is from the US, and the party wasn’t in the US.)
    I hadn’t really heard about any of that last stuff. He thought it made the point that the MSM doesn’t cover things fairly.

    That’s a creationist meme. Did he give any other hint of creationist leaning?

  30. #31 Billy Bob Hall
    December 12, 2010

    Well Done Sun-Spot. Although, you have a little way yo go yet in order to get banned from this ‘open minded’ blog-site like me ! :-)

  31. #32 Steve L
    December 13, 2010

    Thanks Chris. He didn’t give me any impression that he was a biblical literalist or young earth creationist. Definitely a Christian, but he seemed to be okay with things being old. In fact, he didn’t say that quick formation of the Grand Canyon meant the Earth isn’t old; I thought he was trying to make a point about replication in science. You’re probably right, though — he may have been working around to springing Noah on me. I’m not used to people taking that route because I’m a biologist and creationists generally jump straight to evolution. Actually, I think they usually jump straight to Darwin….

  32. #34 Brent
    December 13, 2010

    None of which explains why it’s so darned cold.

  33. #35 sunspot
    December 13, 2010

    (hand jabbing in the air)

    SIR…SIR…..THHIRRRRRRR,

    yes zootie pootie,

    thun thpot has been wyting stuff about data in the Rose does to data thread, and lathst week thir, he posted a link that showed that the ice in Antarctica
    is still above average WAH WAH WAH

    There There zootie pootie, calm down little fella/girlie, I’ll fix that nasty thun thpot for posting stuph that made has made you think !!!

  34. #36 sunspot
    December 13, 2010

    Thanks Barry,

    Temperature data from the 71% of Planet Earth covered by oceans is even more sporadic. Today, buoys and satellites cover large expanses that previously were measured only by ships traveling different routes, during favorable times of the year, using a variety of methods to measure seawater and air temperatures. But even today only a small portion of Earth’s oceans are measured regularly or accurately.

    Compounding these problems, 55% of the 12,000 surface temperature stations operating in 1990 have been closed down – and many of the now missing stations were in Siberia and other cold regions. This alone has created a significant 20-year “warming” bias, notes former University of Winnipeg climatology professor Tim Ball.

    Today, nearly half of the world’s remaining stations are located in the United States, on 1.9% of the Earth’s surface. The vast majority are in the Lower 48 States. And as meteorologist Anthony Watts has documented, most of those stations are near parking lots, air conditioning exhaust ports, highways, airport tarmac and other artificial heat sources – all of which skew the recorded temperatures upward. His report, “Is the US surface temperature record reliable?” is a real eye-opener.

    However, none of this sobering reality deters climate chaos alarmists, who consistently show a penchant for distributing dire news releases on the eve of important global warming votes and conferences.

    2000-2010 was “the hottest decade ever,” and 2010 “is shaping up to be the hottest year on record,” NASA and NOAA breathlessly announced … on July 28, prior to hoped-for Senate votes and the Cancun summit. “World temperatures in 2010 may be the warmest on record. 2010 will be one of the two warmest years, going back to 1850,” Britain’s Meteorology Office intoned … in late November.

    “This year will be the third warmest year on record, since 1850,” the World Meteorological Organization declaimed … on December 3. Other organizations issued similar headline-grabbing alarums.

    But before you say kaddish or “requiescat in pace” for Mother Earth, keep the previous caveats in mind and note a few other realities. One, only a few hundredths of a degree separate the 2010 decade from the similarly very warm 1930s – and NASA and other researchers refuse to release their raw temperature data and analytical methods, so that independent researchers can examine their calculations and claims.

    http://www.tinyurl.com.au/zfd

  35. #37 sunspot
    December 13, 2010

    burnie, I see your stammering again.

    Chris O spiel, thanks for link to the giss temp anomaly cartoon.

    but did you know ?

    GISS Deletes Arctic And Southern Ocean Sea Surface Temperature Data

    http://www.tinyurl.com.au/zfe

  36. #38 chek
    December 13, 2010

    “Independent researchers” …. who don’t know how to research.

    Hilarious.

    But that’s sunsplat’s kinda people.

  37. #39 Dave R
    December 13, 2010

    [tosspot](http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2010/12/sunspot_thread.php#comment-3001580), you’ve C&P’d an article by Paul Driessen of the right wing extremist “Committee For A Constructive Tomorrow”:

    >missing stations were in Siberia and other cold regions. This alone has created a significant 20-year “warming” bias

    [The 1990s station dropout does not have a warming effect](http://clearclimatecode.org/the-1990s-station-dropout-does-not-have-a-warming-effect/).

    >only a few hundredths of a degree separate the 2010 decade from the similarly very warm 1930s

    [The 2010 decade is about 0.5 degrees higher than the 1930s](http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/corporate/pressoffice/2009/pr20091208b.html).

    >NASA and other researchers refuse to release their raw temperature data and analytical methods

    The raw temperature data is [publicly available on the internet](http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/data-sources/#Climate_data_raw) and the analytical methods are [published in the scientific literature](http://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/abstracts/1999/Hansen_etal.html).

    __Paul Driessen is a liar who relies on idiots like you who do not understand the subject to spread his lies. Please stop doing it.__

  38. #40 mike
    December 13, 2010

    Deltoids, do you recall your earliest tyke-hood when you first felt those strange stirrings that would ineluctably lead you to a life of pocket-protectors, rubber nose-pieces, oats, tenure, and, even, a pony tail or two? Yes, Deltoids, I’m referring to that bio-diversity “happy spot” you discovered in your youth when you dropped a lizard, for the first time, into your ant-farm and watched for hours as the results of your “science” experiment unfolded (be honest, Deltoids, you know what I’m talking about)?

    Sunspot has come out fighting, I see, and isn’t doing half-bad. Especially given that he’s beset by a whole ant-colony of group-thinkers, deeply afflicted by the curse of that Brit class “thingie.”

  39. #41 Wow
    December 13, 2010

    > Sunspot has come out fighting, I see, and isn’t doing half-bad.

    Indeed, he’s doing completely bad.

    PS isn’t it odd that someone who posts up “1000 scientists say not” and “many high level people don’t believe” gets defended by a troll who talks of groupthink on deltoid.

  40. #42 Starwatcher
    December 13, 2010

    @24

    Thanks Dave. GCR modulating low altitude cloud cover is starting to remind me of Lindzen’s Iris hypothesis; A novel mechanism that has associated with it grandiose claims that are subsequently paired down into more plausible lower impact claims after several iterations of near falsifications.

  41. #43 Marion Delgado
    December 13, 2010

    Has anyone contacted Kristin Byrnes yet, and asked her to account for how we’re virtually in another Maunder Minimum yet warming? By now, she’s not a bare adolescent, and it’d be interesting to see if she sticks with her denialism, now that she’s presumably not just being manipulated by her elders.

  42. #44 mike
    December 13, 2010

    Wow,

    Yr comment #31

    Hey guy, you gotta read more carefully. I didn’t defend Sunspot, in my comment #30. I’m just enjoying the spectacle. That’s all. I mean, I don’t even have any problem with Deltoid’s lefty group-think (and yes, Deltoids, don’t be in denial, you are group-thinkers and BCT syndrome sufferers). That is, I have no problem as long as you Deltoids keep your ant-trails off my picnic basket.

  43. #45 luminous beauty
    December 13, 2010

    mike,

    I think you are projecting. Are you a member of that group that believes (against all evidence to the contrary) in some kind of pure individual thought process discrete and independent of social and cultural context?

    What is BCT?

  44. #46 mike
    December 13, 2010

    LB,

    BCT=Brit class “thingie”.

  45. #47 luminous beauty
    December 13, 2010

    mike,

    I’m a Californian. How am I suffering from BCT syndrome?

    Do you care to answer my other question?

    How do you define ‘lefty’?

  46. #48 Anna Haynes
    December 13, 2010

    SteveL, re your
    > “I tried to keep him on topic and just have him focus a little deeper on any of these things. But it carried on.”

    That’s something I’ve noticed; any effort to dig deeper is met by a change in subject, delivered with equal vehemence to the original assertion.

    The way I’m trying to deal with it, is to offer to bet on a single specific point. Another (probably less threatening to the male ego) thing to try would be to abstract the discussion – “if you were faced with someone who puts forth a whole lot of claims you disagree with, how would you check to see whether he was right?” or “what do you think a good scientist would do, when faced with someone who puts forth a claim that doesn’t match their understanding?”

    (my guess is that there might be an inability to think abstractly like this, & so it’ll go nowhere; but if so it’d be interesting to know this, & the only way to find out is to try it.)

  47. #49 mike
    December 13, 2010

    LB,

    The syndrome also afflicts Anglophile wannabes–California lefties are especially susceptible. Definition of “lefty?” I think it best to let you define yourself.

  48. #50 Anna Haynes
    December 13, 2010

    …and Luminous, I had a few Qs back here for you (link)

    sorry sunspot, I seem to be polluting your thread with off-topic remarks.

  49. #51 jakerman
    December 13, 2010

    The [Divided States of America](http://www.alternet.org/rights/122499) has a [class thingie](http://www.theblogofrecord.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/kkk-services-arlington-1925.jpg).

    Mike is pursuing a [long tradition](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_United_States) by of ignoring the log in ones own eye.

  50. #52 mike
    December 13, 2010

    So Jakerman, why do people from all over the world yearn to become Americans? You don’t see folks risking life and limb trying to sneak into the Gulag paradises you lefties love (but at a distance, of course)? Maybe those desperate immigrants just aren’t smart like you and your group-grokker pals. Or, more likely, they know what the score really is.

  51. #53 Chris O'Neill
    December 13, 2010

    I’ll fix that nasty thun thpot for posting stuph that made has made you think

    Ha ha, don’t know about making me think but certainly made me laugh.

  52. #54 luminous beauty
    December 13, 2010

    mike,

    >The syndrome also afflicts Anglophile wannabes–California lefties are especially susceptible. Definition of “lefty?” I think it best to let you define yourself.

    California lefties are Anglophile wannabes? Surely you jest.

    You might be enlightened by researching the psychological concept of ‘groupthink’ rather than using it, from a position of ignorance, as a cudgel to marginalize, in a stereotypical fashion, those with whom you disagree.

    I’d define my own understanding of ‘lefty’ as believing a more egalitarian society is a more just society, but I’m not so simple-minded as to believe that is the only consideration in acquiring a balanced view of political theory.

    Your turn.

    Anna,

    I’m sorry I haven’t responded to your questions. The ‘use small words’ condition threw me. Let’s just say the question posed in the title of Knutti’s paper is an over generalization and simplification of the particular questions he addresses in the abstract and introduction. What he concludes is that a semi-empirical examination of theoretically large uncertainties in net sulfate particulate forcings might suggest a limit on the upper bounds of those theoretical uncertainties. The opposite of what your correspondent seems to be claiming claiming.

  53. #55 luminous beauty
    December 13, 2010

    >So Jakerman, why do people from all over the world yearn to become Americans?

    They do? That sounds like some kind of groupthink consensus belief to me.

    >You don’t see folks risking life and limb trying to sneak into the Gulag paradises you lefties love (but at a distance, of course)?

    We love?

    >Maybe those desperate immigrants just aren’t smart like you and your group-grokker pals. Or, more likely, they know what the score really is.

    US immigrants are usually very proud of their ethnic traditions and progressive Americans are quite generous in absorbing elements of non-Anglo indigenous and foreign cultures into the general cultural milieu. You might have heard of jazz/rock & roll/hip-hop, surfing, pizza, bagels, etc. Cinco de Mayo is a big deal here, but then, Hispanic culture predates Anglo culture in Cali by about a hundred years.

  54. #56 jakerman
    December 13, 2010

    >*So Jakerman, why do people from all over the world yearn to become Americans?*

    You mean the Mexican’s who had their lands stolen? That would be related to the [FTA wrecking](http://www.helium.com/items/140623-the-devastating-effects-of-free-trade-policy-in-mexico-and-china) their employment opportunity.

    Or do you mean the South American’s comming through Mexico? That would be related to [American interference](http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2003/US-Interventions-1823.htm) in their homestates that stole their resources on be half of big corporations and undermined their democracy.

    >*You don’t see folks risking life and limb trying to sneak into the Gulag paradises you lefties love (but at a distance, of course)?*

    Which Gulag’s do I love (even at a distance)? Or do just prefer arguing with strawmen?

  55. #57 mike
    December 13, 2010

    LB,

    Yr comments 44 & 45

    Great G-ia, LB! Please, I’m beggin’ you, no more pop psychology! That sort of clap-trap drove me screaming from California many years ago.

    Seriously, LB, as an emigre Californian and a lapsed lefty, myself, I think I can spot you as one of those types with a good heart and idealistic intentions. If lefties were all like you, I’d probably still be one myself. Even your comments are reasonable and courteous (so what are you doing on this blog?), which is a refreshing contrast to the jerk-off comments that typically appear here. But, honestly, JB, do you really think you will be able to get Al Gore to re-distribute any of his extravagant, high carbon life-style accessories to the “little” people? Or get any other members of the “Big Green” nomenklatura to do likewise, for that matter. Don’t fall for the left’s “noble language”–it’s good language, but pure humbug when employed by the lefties that count. And the left elite does not hesitate to cynically use good people like you (useful fools, they call them).

    Jakerman,

    Yr comment 46

    Great G-ia, Jakerman! Such an anthropogenic, GHG blast of anti-American invective! Nothing like poking a little fun at your guy’s BCT syndrome to get you to reveal your true feelings. Works every time.

    And despite America’s many supposed imperfections, still they come, Jakerman. And not just from Mexico. From everywhere. From all over the world. And in large part, they come because America is a land blessedly free from Gulags and the curse of that Brit class “thingie.” Proud to be an American. Ooh Rah!

  56. #58 jakerman
    December 13, 2010

    >* Jakerman! Such an anthropogenic, GHG blast of anti-American invective!

    Not anti-American, anti-imperialist, but trust you to fight a strawman.

    American’s can be as great as anyone. I look up to heros like those in the civil rights movement, and the [Abolitionist movement](http://americanabolitionist.liberalarts.iupui.edu/brief.htm) and global justice movement.

    You don’t own the American identity Mike. It is contested. Just like you can’t paint me as loving Gulags or favouring a class system.

    >*And despite America’s many supposed imperfections, still they come*

    Yes, and the ugly American side (KKK and [OOh Raa!](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0)) beat up on the vulnerable and steal from them, forcing them to look for better options. Fortunately the [Nobel Americans](http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&safe=off&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-au&q=howard+zinn&aq=0&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=Howard+Zinn&gs_rfai=) shine a light on the injustice and work to aid people around the world from imperialsit oppression at the point of an [Ooh Raa gun](http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/US_Interventions_WBlumZ.html).

  57. #59 luminous beauty
    December 13, 2010

    mike,

    >Great G-ia, LB! Please, I’m beggin’ you, no more pop psychology! That sort of clap-trap drove me screaming from California many years ago.

    Pardon me, are you saying ‘groupthink’ is pop-psych clap-trap? Then why did you bring it up?

    I think that as one of his offset schemes is providing low interest loans to rural (Asian)Indians to buy small solar electric systems would be about as much redistributive ‘accessories’ as might be expected from a right of center moderate liberal like Al Gore.

    I’d appreciate if you could expand on the term ‘Anglophile wannabes’. Are these people who wish to be attracted to British culture, but can’t for some reason? What is it, in your sublime wisdom, that is stopping them?

  58. #60 P. Lewis
    December 13, 2010

    why do people from all over the world yearn to become Americans?

    People like Faisal Shahzad, Najibullah Zazi,…?

    You don’t see folks risking life and limb trying to sneak into the Gulag paradises you lefties love

    Apart from the (in)famous ones like Philby, Burgess, Maclean, Blake, …

    The list of countries by foreign-born population in 2005 lists a few countries that might be described as of the pink persuasion or redder, compared with the democratic politically central USA. Granted, no. 2 in that list probably contains immigrants from former Soviet republics, but one might think that they might want to escape the clutches of their former political masters, rather than return to them. Seems not.

    And from those figures, 80% of the world’s migrants as of 2005 had chosen a country other than the USA as their destination.

  59. #62 mike
    December 13, 2010

    So what’s your point, guys? British troops in Iraq caused birth defects? Tony Blair and his successors are war criminals? Pictures of kids with horrific birth defects can be used for lefty agit-prop purposes, just like photo-shopped pictures of polar bears on ice floes? I know, before British troops invaded Iraq, the country never had a birth defect. But now there are all these Iraqi birth defects, caused by the invading British troops. I guess the lesson-learned is Brits are really bad people. Thanks for providing the photographic proof. A further reason I’m proud to be an American. Ooh-Rah!

  60. #63 Chris O'Neill
    December 13, 2010
    The Divided States of America has a class thingie.
    Mike is pursuing a long tradition by of ignoring the log in ones own eye.

    mike:

    So Jakerman, why do people from all over the world yearn to become Americans?

    mike lost the first argument so moved the goal-posts. Boring.

  61. #64 zoot
    December 13, 2010

    Who’d a thought it? Thread dedicated to notorious thread hijacker sunspot has been hijacked.

    Oh the irony.

  62. #65 jakerman
    December 13, 2010

    >*So what’s your point, guys? British troops in Iraq caused birth defects? Tony Blair and his successors are war criminals? [...]But now there are all these Iraqi birth defects, caused by the invading British troops. I guess the lesson-learned is Brits are really bad people.*

    Mike so in addition to your lost argument tactic of fighting strawmen, you also need a lesson in [recent history](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Fallujah).

    >*The Second Battle of Fallujah — code-names Operation Al-Fajr (Arabic, “the dawn”) and Operation Phantom Fury — was a joint U.S.-Iraqi -British offensive in November and December 2004. It was led by the U.S. Marine Corps against the Iraqi insurgency stronghold in the city of Fallujah and was authorized by the U.S.-appointed Iraqi Interim Government. The U.S. military called it “some of the heaviest urban combat U.S. Marines have been involved in since the Battle of Huế City in Vietnam in 1968.”[14][15]*

    Even [admission of use](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/2860759.stm) by the US Military.

    >Colonel James Naughton of US Army Materiel Command said Iraqi complaints about depleted uranium (DU) shells had no medical basis.

    >>*”They want it to go away because we kicked the crap out of them,” he told a Pentagon briefing.*

    After denying the US’s role in the Falluja, mike proudly anounces Ooh Raa! again.

    We’ll [again](http://www.woolamaloo.org.uk/nick%20ut%20Kim%20Phuc%20vietnam%20war.jpg) is apt. There is a long history of this [Ooh Raa!](http://www.comayala.es/Articulos/guerrabush/colaterales/Ali%20Ismail%20Abbas.jpg)

  63. #66 jakerman
    December 13, 2010

    >*Pictures of kids with horrific birth defects can be used for lefty agit-prop purposes, just like photo-shopped pictures of polar bears on ice floes?*

    Are you denying the ligitimacy of all these photo’s? Do you claim they are all photoshoped. What is your point?

    Now go back to the [scienfic study](http://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/7/7/2828/pdf) which blamed:

    >*the use of novel weapons (possibly ncluding depleted uranium) in heavy fighting which occurred in that town between **US led forces** and local elements in 2004.*

    [Emphasis added}

    Go and calcualte the rate of rise in childhood pathology and calculate how many have not been documented in the photographs I presented? Do you want to censor all these images? Do you want [these images](http://web.tiscali.it/venceremos/iraq/uranio.htm) exculed from debate?

  64. #67 mike
    December 13, 2010

    It appears that I’ve kicked over the Deltoid anti-hill sufficiently so that my picnic basket is safe, at least until you lefties cease milling around and manage to re-group. In the meantime:

    O’Neill’s idiot comment # 53, is unworthy of my valuable time except to dismiss it out of hand.

    P. Lewis’ post #50 is, rare for this blog, an intelligent and courteous comment. But for purposes of my point, P. Lewis, I think the more telling statistic would be the number of those immigrants who locate to somewhere other than the U. S., but would choose the U. S. if that option was open to them. One might even consider those who are not immigrants at all but would jump at the chance to come to America if they had the opportunity. Do you have those stats? Regardless, P. Lewis, you don’t dispute that America is the favored destination of people all over the world, do you?

    LB, let’s just agree to disagree.

    And, finally, just so there’s no question, my remarks about Brits and Brit troops in my comment #52, above, are entirely ironic and in no way represent my true views of the British (except for some low-life lefties) and, most certainly, not of British troops, especially those serving in Iraq and/or Afghanistan. Brit troops are everything that a scumbag like Jakerman is not. And that’s a good thing. Proud that Brit troops are comrades in arms with America’s finest! Ooh Rah!

    With that, I’m taking a break, guys, so you can now get on with the repair of your ant-hill.

  65. #68 jakerman
    December 13, 2010

    Mike thanks for exposing yourself, comeback when you’ve [regained sufficient](http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2010/12/sunspot_thread.php#comment-3003782) dignity to enable your to address the facts rather than fighting strawmen.

  66. #69 luminous beauty
    December 13, 2010

    mike bugs out, claiming victory.

    Ooh Rah!(entirely ironic)

  67. #70 jakerman
    December 13, 2010

    >*O’Neill’s idiot comment # 53, is unworthy of my valuable time except to dismiss it out of hand.*

    Said like and elitist and titled Earl.

    >*And, finally, just so there’s no question, my remarks about Brits and Brit troops in my comment #52, above, are entirely ironic…*

    So mike’s response to [this issue](http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2010/12/sunspot_thread.php#comment-3003677) is an unfunny attempt at humor? Witless fool.

  68. #71 jakerman
    December 13, 2010

    >>*O’Neill’s idiot comment # 53, is unworthy of my valuable time except to dismiss it out of hand.*

    >Said like and elitist and titled Earl.

    I should add that Chris was correct, which is why mike had nothing to say.

    I’d suspect Bluster is mike’s bread and butter, that is if it were not for that problem that Mike’s responses are so dominated by strawman assults.

    I can concluded that fallacious argument is mike’s bread and butter.

  69. #72 mike
    December 13, 2010

    Jakerman,

    Yr comment #57.

    Jakerman, I’m not a lefty. I don’t want to censor anything. That’s a lefty trick.

    Those are horrific pictures you’ve posted. Some of the defects may even be due to the effects of the weapons used in the war. But then, we might find pictures of horribly mutilated and dead kids from any war and from any side. Dresden? Hamburg? Sound familiar? Let me ask you, Jakerman, when everyone else in your country wears a red poppy on their lapel, do you go against the grain, and carry a placard picturing dead German children horribly killed by British bombs? Or, for that matter, a placard with pictures of Iraqi kids with birth defects born in the British zone of operation? We can be sure you do not, Jakerman.

    Yeah, war is hell. But no war has been fought with greater solicitude for non-combatants and with greater effort to limit non-combatant casualties than the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Join up and check it out for yourself, if you don’t believe me.

    Jakerman, you know all this. But your twisted hatred for America compels you to use any low-life trick to further your nasty left-wing bigotry. The only good thing about you, Jakerman, is your forthrightness. It’s not much, but it’s the only thing keeping you from being a complete scumbag.

    Man, I’ve wasted much too much of my time and energy on you, Jakerman. You’re not worth it. Bye.

  70. #73 mike
    December 13, 2010

    Jakerman,

    My comment #62 is in reply to your comment #56, not to comment #57.

  71. #74 jakerman
    December 13, 2010

    >*I don’t want to censor anything. That’s a lefty trick*

    Tell that Assange. Or your military boys who are censoring the release of more Abugrabe pictures.

    >*Some of the defects may even be due to the effects of the weapons used in the war*

    Read the study mike, its about the dramatic rise in infant pathology. Its about all the **extra** lives wrecked on top of regular occurances.

    >*But then, we might find pictures of horribly mutilated and dead kids from any war and from any side. Dresden? Hamburg? Sound familiar?*

    Yes, Put these sorts pictures up during the debate for war. And change your politics and media olligarchy that lie about the necessity for war.

    >*But no war has been fought with greater solicitude for non-combatants and with greater effort to limit non-combatant casualties than the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.*

    The US forces used DU despite documented risks factors. Killing civilians. [Here is](http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2010/12/sunspot_thread.php#comment-3003763) your “effort to limit non-combatant casualties”:

    >*Colonel James Naughton of US Army Materiel Command said Iraqi complaints about depleted uranium (DU) shells had no medical basis.

    >>*”They want it to go away because we kicked the crap out of them,”* he told a Pentagon briefing.

    >*Jakerman, you know all this. But your twisted hatred for America compels you to use any low-life trick to further your nasty left-wing bigotry*

    Back to [your strawman attacks again](http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2010/12/sunspot_thread.php#comment-3003572) mike. That is your white flag of surrending the ground of factual argument.

  72. #75 jakerman
    December 13, 2010

    [Here is](http://book.democracynow.org/) an audio book from another fine American freedom fighter. I recommended it strongly to those who care about how the USA’s rulers manage the populous.

  73. #76 mike
    December 14, 2010

    Jakerman,

    Yr comment #64

    Late in the game, you’ve provided an thought-provoking comment.

    The protection of military and diplomatic secrets is a requirement of every nation, I think we both agree. On the other hand, you won’t find me defending the use of the classified system to hide wrong-doing by civilian or military authorities (some rare exceptions based only on operational or force protection considerations). And it’s not “your military boys” who are censoring anything except to the extent they do so on the basis of the lawful orders and regulations established for the armed forces by the U. S. civilian government. So your complaint is misdirected. Take it up with the Obama administration, if you think there has been unjustified censorship.

    The DU business is a complex one. DU is used in armor and rounds because it is unequaled in its protective qualities, as armor, and ability to penetrate enemy armor, when formed into projectiles. Iraq, you will recall had quite an inventory of tanks and other armored vehicles opposing U. S. and other coalition forces. On the other hand, health problems may well be associated with DU (but maybe not–my limited understanding is that such DU risk claims are based on studies showing correlations and, as we all know, correlation does not prove causation). Regardless, the use of DU rounds, or any other type of weapon, involves trade-off considerations. Putting the matter in perspective, the carpet-bombing of German cities, in WW II, was associated with well-defined and understood “risk factors” for the health of the German residents of those cities. But carpet bombing of German cities was nevertheless conducted despite those known risks and with the certain knowledge that thousands of non-combatant lives would be destroyed, both physically and psychologically, with scars that lingered for decades. Of course, those “carpet” bombs were mainly British–Americans favored “precision” bombing.

    On the other hand, there are many, many weapons and devices used in war that hurt people, and hurt them badly. DU is just one of them. So targeting DU in isolation for criticism seems strangely unbalanced. Iraqi Jihadists regularly set off car-bombs in market places at mid-day so as to intentionally inflict hundreds of casualties on non-combatant shoppers, consisting in the main of grocery shopping moms accompanied by their babes and toddlers. But car-bombs don’t seem to be on your radar, Jakerman. Or pictures of those devastated Iraqi market places. Why not? DU is used by American forces, car bombs are not. Could that have anything to do with your preoccupation with DU, Jakerman, to the exclusion of other weapons, such as car bombs? That is, one lends itself to anti-American propaganda and the other does not. Right?

    Finally, Jakerman, I note that the armed forces of most nations, and certainly those of the U. S. and Great Britain, are subject to civilian control. It’s hardly the military’s fault if an ill-judged war is legally launched by our civilian governments. It is not the place of the U. S. or British military to refuse legal orders–even those which might appear ill-judged to some in the ranks. Juntas are not the tradition of our countries, thankfully. And I might add, it is not much of test of one’s convictions and courage to be a pacifist, if that is what you are, Jakerman, when you practice your pacifism in a well-protected country like America or Great Britain.

    Although I’ve offered you a forthcoming discussion of the issues you’ve raised, Jakerman, I’m under no illusions that the issues you’ve raised are anything but pretexts for your lefty anti-American propaganda. And I note your care to never criticize the British government or British military personnel, when your critisms of the U. S. would naturally seem to extend to your own country and countrymen, as well (after all, the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan was a joint effort by America and Great Britain). Your anti-American potshots may score points with your Deltoid soul-mates, Jakerman, but your lefty bias and animus is transparent to the larger audience–that is, to humanity, whose one shining hope is the United States of America, the bane of lefty collectivists and their gulag brave-new-worlds. Proud to be an American. Ooh Rah! (Yes, there have been quite a few “Ooh Rahs” in my comments, but then, that’s the sound of freedom.)

    An overly long post which may, very well, not survive moderation, I understand. Whatever, it’s time for me to hit the rack.

  74. #77 jakerman
    December 14, 2010

    Reply to mike part 1:

    >*The protection of military and diplomatic secrets is a requirement of every nation*

    Secrets [like this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0)?

    >* And it’s not “your military boys” who are censoring anything except to the extent they do so on the basis of the lawful orders and regulations established for the armed forces by the U. S. civilian government. *

    The US has and undemocratic military industrial congressional complex. You erroneous claimed that its only the left that censor.

    >* Jakerman, I’m not a lefty. I don’t want to censor anything. That’s a lefty trick. *

    To make this false claim requires that you ignore that the [Bush Admin suppressed the images](http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2009/09/200992112214934570.html) and that the lefter than Obama American Civil Liberties Union fought for their release.

    >*The court rejected as too speculative an argument by the administration of George Bush, the former US president, that the pictures should be suppressed in order to prevent anti-US sentiment and protect US soldiers from any violence that might be inflamed by their release.*

    >*Now, a year later, and despite the court’s ruling, – and much to our profound disappointment at the American Civil Liberties Union – Barack Obama, the US president, has vowed to continue to suppress the photos.*

  75. #78 jakerman
    December 14, 2010

    >* my limited understanding is that such DU risk claims are based on studies showing correlations and, as we all know, correlation does not prove causation*

    Wrong again, in addition to correlation, we also [know about](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TC0-44JYKFP-1&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F31%2F2001&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1578310330&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=a0579f2448dd3234f77519ee2fa60e51&searchtype=a) the “reproductive toxicity, maternal toxicity, embryo/fetal toxicity, and postnatal effects of uranium” . And we have [demonstrated that](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TGG-45BCSM7-1&_user=10&_coverDate=07%2F25%2F2002&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1578312086&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=122b2875c94d67c9caebd9dd954e989d&searchtype=a) “DU can generate oxidative DNA damage and can also catalyze reactions that induce hydroxyl radicals”

    >* On the other hand, there are many, many weapons and devices used in war that hurt people, and hurt them badly. DU is just one of them. So targeting DU in isolation for criticism seems strangely unbalanced.*

    Your complaint that I have not criticized a broad enough range of weapon and device used in war is an nonsense argument. I’m as unbalance as this in not corrected every one of a denials errors.

    >* Iraqi Jihadists regularly set off car-bombs in market places at mid-day so as to intentionally inflict hundreds of casualties on non-combatant shoppers, consisting in the main of grocery shopping moms accompanied by their babes and toddlers.*

    Your war created the Jihadist bombers. Just like US support aided Saddam, and trained the Afghan war lords.

    >* It’s hardly the military’s fault if an ill-judged war is legally launched by our civilian governments.*

    You mean the military-industrial-congressional-media-complex. And rather than blame shifting you need to take responsiblity for your own part: Its your fault to cry Ooh Raa! When presented with [these atrocities](http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2010/12/sunspot_thread.php#comment-3003677).

  76. #79 rhwombat
    December 14, 2010

    Mike. You might like to examine the differences between the UK and Australia before honking so loudly. Sure we were once grovelling colonials, but we can recognise Jingoistic bullshit when it’s fed to us. Rupert is one of yours now. You sound like a “Company” Republican: Bay of Pigs to Gitmo, you don’t learn much do you? How’s your health care? Slainte

  77. #80 jakerman
    December 14, 2010

    >*I’m under no illusions that the issues you’ve raised are anything but pretexts for your lefty anti-American propaganda.*

    Once more mike runs up his white flag and [surrenders the groud of factual debate](http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2010/12/sunspot_thread.php#comment-3003572).

    Sorry mike you don’t represent at monolith called America. My American friends have as much right to their claims on the USA, and they don’t surrender the gound of factual argument as readily as you.

  78. #81 Jeff Harvey
    December 14, 2010

    Mike,

    You lost in when you wrote, “It’s hardly the military’s fault if an ill-judged war is legally launched by our civilian governments”.

    What is your defintiion of ‘legal’? Its clearly been plucked out of thin air. The Germans argued at Nurenmberg that, under German law, the invasions of Poland and Czechoslovakia were ‘legal’. So US law means nothing here. And, as for international law, the Iraq invasion trampled all over it.

    So of course the war was NOT legal. According to the UN Charter, the Nuremberg Code, as well as the US Constitution, it was ILLEGAL. International law attorney Michael Mandel shreds the legality issue in his book, “How America Gets Away With Murder”. Fabulous read.

    For the record, Ward Churchill, in his quite outstanding book “On the Justice of Roosting Chickens” chronicles 200 years of US history in what he calls “Senseless butchery and democracy deterred.” The ledger is an ugly one. Far from promoting democracy and freedom in its foreign policy, the US has repeatedly attempted to suppress it whenever and wherever it threatened to break out, at least if ‘democracy’ countered US economic anmd political agendas. This might explain why Edward Herman found that there was a strong correlation between US investment, humans rights violations and torture in developing countries. Its not because the US condones torure; as Herman explains its because countries that routinely torture or murder trade unionists, priests, and those pushing for progressive change just happen to be good countries in terms of business investment.

    You also ought to read up on quotes by famous American planners and politicians over the years – the likes of Kennan, Nitze, LeMay, Meachling, Brezinski, Carrothers, Kissinger and more. They pretty much lay bare the myth of a benevolent US foreign policy agenda.

    As for Wikileaks, all its done is strip the emperor of his clothes. The major humuliation has been reserved for the corporate-state media apparatus, which rotuinely channels lies and distortions coming from our politicians as ‘facts’ without challenging them. Basically the WL documents reveal how spot-on commentators like Chomsky, Herman, Johnson, Street, Engelhardt, and many others are in their assessments of our ‘democracies’. Little coming out of WL is that shocking, at least for those who know how the political-corporate establishment function. But the revelations are a shock for those who believe in the crap peddled daily by the MSM that masquerades as ‘news’ or ‘informed discussion’. And I believe that I have the right to know if my government is planning to wage another illegal war in Iran that could lead to similar levels of carnage as has been wrought in Iraq and Afganistan. I also have the right to know that these wars are not about ‘democracy promotion’ but about outright expansionism and control of vital resources elsewhere.

  79. #82 mike
    December 14, 2010

    Deltoids,

    I’m back from my beauty sleep, but only for the moment. Jeez, the ant-hill is aboil, I see. A few good points.
    Yes, censorship is not only a reflex of the left, but also of the right. Though you won’t find me defending censorship from any source except in those cases where safety, privacy, or security concerns are paramount considerations. Also, taking one of the comments at face value, it appears that DU is a verifiable health risk. However, my prior discussion of trade-off considerations in the employment of weapons emerges in tact. For sure, DU was not used with the intention of deliberately targeting civilians.

    Sorry, most of the rest was either trivial or typical lefty BS. Not quite at the “Baby Killer!” level yet but getting there. And, of course, always the anti-American theme. Remember, Deltoids, it was a coalition that invaded Iraq. Including Her Majesty’s troops. Remember Tony Blair? Some Australians too. Any criticism of those countries and their militaries, Deltoids? Even jihadists deliberately blowing up hundreds of their co-religionists is America’s fault. Ah, you lefties. Seen all this before.

    Jeff Harvey’s comment #71 was rather intriguing. It appears that the Iraq war violated international law according to a gent by the name of Michael Mandel. And, of course, like all the commentary on this blog only the United States was singled out as a violator, including its military. Deltoids, Deltoids, do I have to keep reminding you that Great Britain was also a part of the Iraq war? And Australia. And Tonga, Moldova, Mongolia, and a bunch of other places. Too bad the heads-of-state of all these countries didn’t read Mr. Mandel’s book before their embarked on their “illegal” war. You’d think those dummies might have had a few lawyers of their own. Can hardly wait to see half of the world’s leaders doing a perp walk at the estimable Mr. Mandel’s say so.

    Now, I’ve got a real life to attend to. See you later, Deltoids. And you guessed it. Proud to be an American! Ooh Rah!

  80. #83 Wow
    December 14, 2010

    > Thread dedicated to notorious thread hijacker sunspot has been hijacked.

    Unless spots and mike are the same person.

  81. #84 Wow
    December 14, 2010

    > I didn’t defend Sunspot, in my comment #30.

    I thin you need to read your OWN posts more carefully.

    Yes you were.

    > I’m just enjoying the spectacle.

    Aye, troll.

  82. #85 Wow
    December 14, 2010

    > I’m back from my beauty sleep…

    > Posted by: mike | December 14, 2010 4:44 AM

    Hmm. That would make your morning get up time (8am-ish local) the middle of the atlantic…

  83. #86 Jeff Harvey
    December 14, 2010

    Mike,

    I never singled out the United States. Britain, Spain, and Italy all deserve to be in the dock. I recommend reading Mark Curtis’ ‘Web of Deceit’ in which he examines the rather horrific foreign policy agenda of the UK over the past 60 years.

    Basically, every UK government since WWII has supinely followed (e.g. supported) the foreign policy agenda of the US. This is because the UKs role in world affairs declined sharply after the war, and UK planners realized that the US was now in the front seat. With this in mind, they felt that the best way to maintain some influence in the world was to become a ‘junior partner’ to the US, and they have done that without exception for 6 decades now.

    As for Mandel, you can be snide and dismissive all you want, but international law means nothing when pursued by rogue and powerful states. Its been known for some time that the US violates international law at will, but that’s because, when you are the world’s sole superpower, you can do what you like. As Noam Chomsky states, ‘What we say goes’ is the US maxim, and its been that way for a generation, and its well indoctrinated into imperial mentality. Little details like ‘international law’ don’t matter. It was actually quite comical watching US lawyers conjuring up every means possible to justify the invasion. All were farcical, of course, and fell well into the realms of Nazi Germany’s similar attempts to justify their aggressions in 1938-9.

    Given how little Mike appears to know about the history of his own country both in terms of domestic and foreign policy (hardly surprising, given the vacuity of the US MSM apparatus) I find it amusing for him to even try and suggest that the Iraq war was even remotely legal. According to who? The US Constitution states that all international treaties signed are the “Supreme law of the land”, and this would include the UN Charter, which was shat all over by the US/UK War party in their decision to invade Iraq.

    Basically, given his hollow arguments, Mike descends into the primordial ooze by claiming that the counter-arguments here are all ‘lefty rhetoric’ that is ‘anti-American’. This is an insult to the views of millions of Americans who love their country but are disgusted at what their country is doing in their name around the world.

  84. #87 jakerman
    December 14, 2010

    >*DU was not used with the intention of deliberately targeting civilians*

    And the drunk driver didn’t mean to kills those kids. Neither is an appropriate defense.

    >*However, my prior discussion of trade-off considerations in the employment of weapons emerges in tact.*

    What? You mean this claim:

    >*DU is used in armor and rounds because it is unequaled in its protective qualities*

    Have you heard of 1984 by George Orwell. Claiming DU shells have “unequalled…protective qualities “ reads like something straight out of the Ministry for Joy.

    >*always the anti-American theme.*

    Not anti-American, rather anti imperialist. But [you already knew that]( http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2010/12/sunspot_thread.php#comment-3004234), you just need to pretend.

    I’m going to have to spell this out aren’t I. You’re actually attacking America, if I am. Your error is to conflate attacking imperialism as attacking America. If you’re not lazily abusing straw-men, then you’ve been misled ; fine Americans attack imperialism. It’s a fine American thing to do.

    I gained my awareness of the injustice of US military interventions in a large part from great Americans. You are attacking critics of the war and lefties, in doing so you are attacking the noble side of America who speak truth to power.

    Perhaps you can’t appreciate that many fine American’s and I reject imperialism. Perhaps you can’t accept that many fine Americans are lefties. Perhaps your definition of American is different to theirs. I don’t accept your definition, I accept their definition of who counts in America.

    BTW which do you think is more damaging to your politics, the images of deformed children or your response to them? I note you failed to address this:

    >*[Mike] you need to take responsiblity for your own part: Its your fault to cry Ooh Raa! When presented with [these atrocities](http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2010/12/sunspot_thread.php#comment-3003677).*

  85. #88 jakerman
    December 14, 2010

    Jeff writes:

    >*Mike, I never singled out the United States.*

    Jeff Its part of Mikes thing. Mike wants to accuse others of a British class thing (especially Anglophile wanna bes and Californian lefties).

    But when shown that that class thing was also a blight on his country, Mike needed to change the argument. So mike said people from around the world yern to become American. (Perhaps it was beyond mikes imagination that they want to be like californian lefties?)

    When mike was shown the problems caused around the world by US intervention, over throw of democracies etc (and linked that to the pressure to move to a stable countries like the USA, which benefit from the resource of others). Mike responded with “Ooh Raa!”

    So I showed him some more of the consequences of his attitude.

    Mike has a chip on his shoulder. He makes fallacious arguments, and he is providing a disservice to his country.

  86. #89 elspi
    December 14, 2010

    So the the roach motel designated for sunspot has instead been occupied by mike.
    Tim just needs to rename this thread the mike thread and then seal the exits.

  87. #90 Dominion
    December 14, 2010

    I want to apologize for Mike…and…well all American righties. I don’t know what happened, used to you could talk to a righty and at least agree on reality. Nowadays they are so wedded to their ideology that anything, even reality, that may prove their ideology wrong must be ruthlessly destroyed.

    Oh and they went bat shit crazy too!

  88. #91 Wow
    December 14, 2010

    > and he is providing a disservice to his country.

    Unless he gets up earlier than 7am and posts on newsgroups, he isn’t from the USA.

  89. #92 Chris O'Neill
    December 14, 2010

    DU was not used with the intention of deliberately targeting civilians

    This is the same argument that runs through the whole defense of starting the war. The war was not started with the intention of deliberately targeting civilians. If they got killed, well, tough. DU highlights the complete indifference to the harm caused by setting the war machine on an opponent. Weapons designers might say to themselves, “do we need to be careful about how we’re damaging the enemy? Of course not, this is war and the more damage and harm to the enemy, the better.”

  90. #93 Marion Delgado
    December 15, 2010

    mike is clearly a sunspot proxy. According to the denialists, they’re experts at working with proxies, so this should be no problem.

  91. #94 Marion Delgado
    December 15, 2010

    Albeit a weak, scattered, low information proxy of dubious utility :)

  92. #95 zoot
    December 15, 2010

    @84: That would be a poxy proxy?

  93. #96 sunspot
    December 16, 2010

    Is “Ooh Raa!” some sort of gay mating call ?

    Ihe Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change boldly predicted in 2007 that Europe and most other regions were “likely” to “very likely” to have milder winters with fewer and shorter cold spells and cold extremes. (see page 862 table 11.2)

    “Fewer cold outbreaks; fewer, shorter, intense cold spells / cold extremes in winter” are Very Likely (VL) consistent across all model projections for Northern Europe, South Asia, and East Asia and Likely (L) for most other regions:”

    (http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar4/wg1/ar4-wg1-chapter11.pdf)

    I can see another snowmaggedongate coming up !!

    The IPCC is being proven wrong by the cold “CLIMATE” almost everywhere !!!!

  94. #97 jakerman
    December 16, 2010

    >*The IPCC is being proven wrong by the cold “CLIMATE” almost everywhere !!!!*

    Please show how the IPPC is wrong. The IPCC [are correct](http://www.skepticalscience.com/Record-high-temperatures-versus-record-lows.html).

    http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/wti/plot/wti/trend

  95. #98 Wow
    December 16, 2010

    > the cold “CLIMATE”^W “WEATHER” almost everywhere^W^W in some areas !!!!

    fixed that for you, kid.

    No charge.

  96. #99 sunspot
    December 16, 2010

    akerz, don’t you read the world news,
    here’s some headlines for you. I could find quite a few for the Southern Hemisphere for you if you like.

    Monster Storm to Strike U.S.

    Germany Brought To Near Standstill By Snow, Cold

    UK Big Freeze Could Last Until Mid-February

    European Deep Freeze – 2 Dec 10 – Thousands of homes lose electricity and heat.

    Will it be even colder than the winter of 1962-3?

    Near emergency-level snowfall in Ontario Shatters previous record

    Record-setting snowfall brings Paris to a standstill

    Scotland braced for three feet of snow

    Coldest in central England since 1659

    Hundreds Of New Cold And Snow Records In US

    Worst storm this century traps 300 motorists in Ontario

    Six straight days of record low temps in Cancun – more coming

    Freezing temps expected most of South Florida – 13 Dec 10

    Record cold tonight for FL, GA, SC and AL –

    Snow and storms cause chaos US midwest

    Helicopters Used To Warm Florida Crops

    Hard freeze in Tampa Bay area forecast for next two nights

    The Bitter Bite of Winter, Food Shortages Coming

    Cold snap hits Turkey with a vengeance

    Cold kills 8 in Poland – 1 Dec 10

    delayed flights across Europe, forced thousands of passengers in Germany to spend the night in trains, and left thousands of motorists stranded overnight in freezing temperatures.

    In Poland, the cold claimed 10 more lives, bringing the overall death toll to 18, and thousands of homes lost electricity and heat as temperatures hovered around -10C (14F).

    Several Romanian villages suffered a similar fate.

    In Denmark, the Danish army used tracked armored personnel carriers to help ambulances and other emergency vehicles cut their way through mounds of snow.

    In Lillhardal, Sweden, the mercury plunged to -29.6C (-13F).

    The Longest & Quietest Solar Magnetic Minimum in Recorded History

    http://www.tinyurl.com.au/7on

    http://www.tinyurl.com.au/zpq

    http://www.tinyurl.com.au/fdq

  97. #100 Jeff Harvey
    December 16, 2010

    Sunspot,

    Weather, weather, and more weather. You hypocrite. And heavy snowfalls are not correlated whatsoever with temperature. Guess what – heavier snowfalls may actually be a symptom of climate change. And this has been known for some time.

    You are an embarrassment.

1 2 3 6

Current ye@r *