Jonas Thread

By popular request, here is the Jonas thread. All comments by Jonas and replies to his comments belong in this thread.

Comments

  1. #1 Wow
    December 6, 2012

    ’90% certainty’

    So not ALL papers will conclude there has been a change.

    Right?

    Or are you too dumb to count too?

  2. #2 Wow
    December 6, 2012

    Oh, work started again, Olap?

    Yeah, you do engage a lot of bollocks.

    All sound and fury, signifying nothing.

  3. #3 Jonas N
    December 6, 2012

    So Wow-spambot:

    Where do you believe in those two papers, the core of that prominent AR4 claim is addressed? You know, the two quantified magnitudes of 1) warming and 2) certainty …

    Hint: Not anywhere in any part of the paper dealing with completely different things, like monsoons etc

  4. #4 Jonas N
    December 6, 2012

    Lionel, It seems that you too rather address me from another thread. Maybe (and I’m speculating here, assuming the best) you were too ashamed to argue alongside with that Über-stupid Wow-character who is illeterat beyoud belief.

    You can prove me wrong, and I’d correct my position.

  5. #5 Wow
    December 6, 2012

    “Where do you believe in those two papers, the core of that prominent AR4 claim is addressed?”

    Wow, you really ARE dumb!

    Dumber than a sack of spanners from the crazy pool.

    The AR4 claim was BASED ON papers. Several of them. You have two.

    Do you know the difference between data and conclusion from the data?

    Or do you REALLY think that one datapoint contains the entire conclusion?

    Too dumb to read, too thick to think, crazier than a psycho squirrel!

  6. #6 Wow
    December 6, 2012

    “Not anywhere in any part of the paper dealing with completely different things like monsoons”

    Really? So climate isn’t the average of weather?

    Thicker than a light year of lard…

  7. #7 Wow
    December 6, 2012

    “You can prove me wrong, and I’d correct my position.”

    Given your irrelevancy status, why the hell should anyone care about you changing your position?

    It’s just plain wrong.

    Hell, it’s so wrong it’s “not even wrong”.

  8. #8 Olaus Petri
    December 6, 2012

    Wow, claims “irrelevancy” staus on Jonas. :-D

    Can it get any better? Parts of the bunch even try to win from afar, in a protected zone, instead of coming here. :-D

  9. #9 Wow
    December 6, 2012

    “Wow, claims “irrelevancy” staus on Jonas”

    No, I pointed it out.

    There’s a difference.

  10. #10 Olaus Petri
    December 6, 2012

    What a riposte from the jonas-possessed punching bag. :-D Hilarious!

  11. #11 Lionel A
    December 6, 2012

    You can prove me wrong, and I’d correct my position.

    You could never correct your position being only capable of behaving like Caenorhabditis elegans. i.e. you are at an evolutionary dead end.

  12. #13 Wow
    December 6, 2012

    Joan, are you afraid of finding out how to get the data you’re demanding?

    Scared of a little work? Work-shy? Or just intimidated by facts?

  13. #14 Wow
    December 6, 2012

    “sea-level-rise-has-slowed-34-over-the-last-decade”

    snrk.

    Another idiot who doesn’t do maths. Olap dog, do you know what weather is?

  14. #15 Jonas N
    December 6, 2012

    Wow, you seem to be a total idiot. Sorry to have to say that. I pity real idiots. But in your case you’ve made yourself to be one! Just amazing!

    Lionel. Stupid insults just don’t work (other than for the Wows of this world)

  15. #16 Wow
    December 6, 2012

    Yup, another self-professed, completely wrong and unsupported claim from joan here. “you seem to be a total idiot.”

    I’d have to have to be his teacher at school. He’d be all “I don’t WANNA learn” and then, because he’s not learning anything, blaming the teacher.

    Don’t you want to know how to get the information you’ve been harping on for a self-confessed 18+ months?

    All this effort complaining about how SOMEONE ELSE must do all your work for you and you haven’t got the energy to ask “OK, where do I get the data I’ve been demanding?”.

    Too dumb to read, too thick to change and completely hatstand.

  16. #17 Wow
    December 6, 2012

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  17. #18 Lionel A
    December 6, 2012

    I leave the stupid insults to you JN, every time you ‘mouth off’ at climate scientists you are being stupidly insulting.

    Here is some pleasant music to help you chill and calm down . I can recommend L’ Arte del Violino too, especially that one shown performed by Elizabeth Wallfisch and the Raglan Baroque Players.

  18. #19 Lionel A
    December 6, 2012

    Here are some more to continue Wows list, do you know where this comes from JustNuts?

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    Shindell, D.T., and G.A. Schmidt, 2004: Southern Hemisphere climate response to ozone changes and greenhouse gas increases. Geophys. Res.Lett., 31, L18209, doi:10.1029/2004GL020724.
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    Lett., 32, L21714, doi:10.1029/2005GL023871.
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    Soden, B.J., R.T. Wetherald, G.L. Stenchikov, and A. Robock, 2002: Global cooling after the eruption of Mount Pinatubo: A test of climate feedback by water vapor. Science, 296(5568), 727–730.
    Soden, B.J., et al., 2005: The radiative signature of upper tropospheric moistening. Science, 310(5749), 841–844.
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    Spagnoli, B., et al., 2002: Detecting climate change at a regional scale: the case of France. Geophys. Res. Lett., 29, doi:10.1029/2001GL014619.
    Stanhill, G., and S. Cohen, 2001: Global dimming, a review of the evidence for a widespread and signifi cant reduction in global radiation with a discussion of its probable causes and possible agricultural consequences.
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    Stark, S., R.A. Wood, and H.T. Banks, 2006: Reevaluating the causes of observed changes in Indian Ocean water masses. J. Clim., 19, 4075– 4086.
    Stenchikov, G.L., et al., 2002: Arctic Oscillation response to the 1991 Mount Pinatubo eruption: Effects of volcanic aerosols and ozone depletion. J. Geophys. Res., 107, 4803.
    Stenchikov, G., et al., 2004: Arctic Oscillation response to the 1991 Pinatubo eruption in the SKYHI GCM with a realistic Quasi-Biennial Oscillation.
    J. Geophys. Res., 109, D03112, doi:10.1029/2003JD003699.
    Stenchikov, G., et al., 2006: Arctic Oscillation response to volcanic eruptions in the IPCC AR4 climate models. J. Geophys. Res., 111, D07107, doi:10.1029/2005JD006286.
    Stendel, M., I.A. Mogensen, and J.H. Christensen, 2006: Infl uence of various forcings on global climate in historical times using a coupled atmosphere–ocean general circulation model. Clim. Dyn., 26, 1–15.
    Stern, D.I., 2005: Global sulfur emissions from 1850 to 2000. Chemosphere, 58, 163–175.
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    Stone, D.A., and A.J. Weaver, 2003: Factors contributing to diurnal temperature trends in twentieth and twenty-fi rst century simulations of the CCCma coupled model. Clim. Dyn., 20, 435–445.
    Stone, D.A., and M.R. Allen, 2005a: The end-to-end attribution problem: From emissions to impacts. Clim. Change, 71, 303–318.
    Stone, D.A., and M.R. Allen, 2005b: Attribution of global surface warming without dynamical models. Geophys. Res. Lett., 32, L18711, doi:10.1029/2005GL023682.

    You see all the scientists that your insulting, both Curry and Lindzen is in their somewhere the latter with this: ‘Reconciling observations of global temperature change.‘ and he is still trying and failing. I don’t think he has heard of ‘equilibrium climate sensitivity‘.

  19. #20 Wow
    December 6, 2012

    Sheesh, look at it.

    All that whining and complaining over 18+ months and not even a “thank you” from joan.

    Anyone would think they’d not wanted an answer so they could continue whining.

  20. #21 Jonas N
    December 6, 2012

    Stuoid beyond belief … Absolutely amazing how stupid some people can make themselves …

  21. #22 Wow
    December 6, 2012

    Yeah, we noticed. Dumb as a sack of rubber spanners you are, joan.

    However, you seem unwilling to stop making an obvious idiot out of yourself.

    Probably because you’re too dumb to realise.

  22. #23 Jonas N
    December 6, 2012

    Again Wow, you demonstrate that you have no clue. You copy a long list of referneces that everybody can find. But you haven’t read them, and you don’t know where to look or what to look after.

    Same goes for Lionel. A long list which he hasn’t read. Just hopes contains something along the lines of his beliefs.

    Lionel, I did not have the impression that you were quite as stupid as signature ‘Wow’ who is so clueless it defies belief. But now you too seem to argue that the contents of the publications aren’t relevant. Just their existence!?

    And you too (like many others) want to imply that you speak for ‘the climate scientists’ when your not, when you post references you’ve never read or wouldn’t understand.

    And pretend to be ‘insulted’ on their behalf. Jeffie tried the same thing. But it is not the smartest trick when you don’t even know what they are saying, or what is argued or questioned. And linking unread reports just gives this away …

    You’re repeated linking and referring to cheap activism like Joe Romm, John Cook, Naomi Oreskes etc gives the impression you are more like a highschool kid ..

    Also the reference to your posession of some books. I think you could aim at seeming a little bit more mature than that.

  23. #24 chek
    December 6, 2012

    “cheap activism ”

    Ah the big giveaway from the Cubicle Kid.
    CorporateWorld don’t like activism, because it’s practiced by ‘activists’. ‘Activists’ is dirty word in CorporateWorld as it generally describes people trying to effect change, usually of a social nature.

    CorporateWorld much prefers ‘lobbyists’ because they’re then getting the kind of change that they’ve paid for. Jonarse never has a bad word to say about any fellow lobbyists for obvious reasons.

    Worth recalling next time the word ‘activism/activist’ is used as a derogatory by Cubicle Kid as yet another in his endless supply of avoidance mechanisms.

  24. #25 Wow
    December 6, 2012

    They don’t like activism they don’t involve themselves in.

  25. #26 Wow
    December 6, 2012

    “You copy a long list of referneces that everybody can find.”

    You didn’t.

  26. #27 Wow
    December 6, 2012

    So, joan, 18+ months whining and all for a list of stuff that you insist anyone could have found. Which you’d not managed for 18+ months despite all your insistence on getting it.

    Do you realise that they will now have to recalibrate the scale of how hard you can fail?

    You have broken the failometer.

  27. #28 Wow
    December 6, 2012

    “But you haven’t read them, and you don’t know where to look or what to look after. ”

    Well

    1) Wrong. I know what to look for.

    2) You, however, do not appear to, despite your protestations of how clever and smart and brilliant you are

    3) You demanded to see the science papers. Well there they are.

    Is the problem that you have spent 18+ months and you wasted all that time complaining and now you have the answer, you don’ t know what to do with it?

    You know, like Steve McIntyre with his CRU data.

  28. #29 Jonas N
    December 6, 2012

    chek

    I use ‘activism’ as a description for those who aren’t interested in finding out about reality, but rather who further a specific goal, belief or agenda.

    You seem obsessed with the ‘corperate world’, as does Jeff and Oreskes, and many more activits on your side.
    I couldn’t care less.

    I asked about the best arguments you believers (that’s in the most positve sense) had for believing the IPCCs most prominent AR4 claim.

    You all confirmed that you really believed it, but none of you had ever seen it, nor do you know anyone who has. It’s all grapewine hearsay. Which I pointed out, since no one I’ve ever asked has seen any such science. And beleive me, I have asked a bunch of pro IPCC climate scientists as well. And promoters of IPCC-style consensus. The simply hadn’t seen any such science.

    Now some of you almost managed to acknowledge that there really isn’t any proper science establishing those quantitative magnitudes. Just barely. Jeff at some point seemed to realize that. But couldn’t really handle the consequences of that insight.

    Others, some with PhDs, refused and tried the most stupid tricks to get around this embarrassing fact of lack of proper science. That the IPCC SPM essentially just pulled that claim out of their hat. Bernard J for instance. He wanted to talk about all the other references that didn’t include said science instead. Or make stupid wagers about future arctic ice which I never even addressed. And Lionel and Wow here, the don’t even know what the question is. Wow even tries first to link to a monsoon paper, showing that observations didn’t match GHG-based models, and later on to convince himself that it the question was about the mere existence of references. Lionel chirps in with a boatload more of references he hasn’t read, like a highschool kid.

    You just couldn’t make this up, chek. The funny thing though is that you all want to make this lack of substance my fault. And even some imagined corporate backing.

    While in reality, things are rather simple. Show me the proper science, or implicitly admit that you have no clue. I’m certainly not gonna blame Wow for not finding any, or Lionel, or bill, ianam and all the others. But those of you who have degrees or even positions and published reports, and who made these claims but never could deliver on your assertions, you I’m going to remind of your failures.

    I can’t claim to have 1st hand insight into how the activist’s brains function. But I’ve seen Jeff’s responses and handling himslef first hand for 1½ years, and several others to. And the extent of reckless reality defeating nonsense spouted to defend his boneheaded beliefs in a counterfactual world is truly astounding. I would have expected such behavior from late teenage leftist cells in the seventies. Not from grown men in their sixties.

    But the observations are real. Jeff Harvey has made these comments and (afaik) no imposter has written all the crazy things he has. Same goes for you. Not quite as mad, but just some comments ago you argued both that the was such science and that I was denying any A in AGW.

    I don’t know why you made such claims. But I assume that you thought this would serve your position somehow. I just don’t understand how. One is easily refuted, in this very thread, the other would be easily demonstrable if it were true. And soon six years have passed and nobody has managed ..

    Where does that leave you bunch? Well I guess you have to obsess about corporate lobbyists doing som shady stuff that causes the climatealarmism to underperfrom science- and opinionwise …

    And again counterfactual. Neither any monies or any campaigns are anywhere to be seen. But GreenPeace ExxonSecrets believs to have found som peanutcrumbs somwhere .. ‘linked to’ something they dislike.

    Well. As always, handling numbers and magnitudes just isn’t the thing for the activist side, is it chek?

  29. #30 Jonas N
    December 6, 2012

    Wow

    You say you “know what to look for” and link to a scepticism confirming paper about monsoon patterns.

    End of story!

    You just couldn’t look more stupid than that!

    I never demanded the list entire of references. And you are definitely not the first faither to try that. Instead I asked specifically for those references that estalished that AR4 claim with proper science. You even wrote that your first two references (yes, you got that number right, which is about the accuracies you’ve achieved), that they did confirm that claim. And they didn’t. They even showed something that more leans towards my side regarding the the bigger picture.

    So you made a fool out of yourself, and were caught with your trousers at your ankles. You then tried a much longer list of references which you had not read either. And again you look like the fool.

    I have no idea why you freel make such a fool out of yourself. But I will remind you of this. And that you earlier asked: What does it matter if there is science behind that AR4 claim.

    I don’t even need to add anything here. You are doing the job for me!

  30. #31 Wow
    December 6, 2012

    “You say you “know what to look for” and link to a scepticism confirming paper about monsoon patterns.”

    Yup.

    I know this is astronomically beyond your grasp, but if you’re going to attribute AGW to climate change, you have to know how the climate has changed first.

    You, on the other hand, cannot see why you need to know about monsoons.

    Apparently the failometer will need ANOTHER fix.

    Damn, you’re failing hard today.

  31. #32 Wow
    December 6, 2012

    “I never demanded the list entire of references.”

    Yes you did.

  32. #33 Wow
    December 6, 2012

    “I asked specifically for those references that estalished that AR4 claim with proper science.”

    And that is what you got.

  33. #34 Wow
    December 6, 2012

    Hey, has anyone else got a philips screwdriver so I can fix my effing failometer.

    This retard is breaking the damn thing faster than I can tighten the bloody thing..!

  34. #35 chek
    December 6, 2012

    “I use ‘activism’ as a description”

    Yes, and you use that description to dimiss great scientists of the calibre of for example James Hansen, for the gang of doublle-digit IQs you hang with as your security blanket.

    Watts and Montford do the same, but it only works on your unchallenged home turf. Don’t bring that shit here. You’ve got way too much reading to do before you have any valid questions regarding attribution first.

  35. #36 Lionel A
    December 6, 2012

    JustNuts

    Don’t you use allot of words to say nothing.

    ExxonSecrets – spider diagram of connections aside here is another side of the same coin:

    International Forum on Globalization: Kochtopus “Carbon Billionaires” Create “Climate Deadlock”

    But still you will rant (I could have used the words ‘flail around’ if you hadn’t been Black Knighted) at the moon about how this is all a part of some communist plot led by Al Gore. Why are you so fixated about him I guess it is because this idiot likes to use Gore as a punchbag:

    Monckton Banned From UN Climate Process For Offensive Stunt.

    ROTFL – at last the clown is treated like one, nice. He being someone else who’s credibility flushed down the toilet many moons ago. So keep spinning and digging.

    I’ll probably not bother you again here. I only commented on another thread about an item of which you should take notice not because I was scared or anything but because at some point one should stop wrestling with a pig as the pig likes getting dirty and thus discussing anything to do with science with you is literally a waste of time but that does not mean that the pig should be allowed to wallow in ignorance as well as *****.

  36. #37 Jonas N
    December 6, 2012

    chek, that ‘great scientist’ Jim Hansen promised meter of sea level rise the reminder of this century, because ‘he knows things other don’t’

    He ceased to be a scientist long before that.

    And he is not even part of the argument here.You are just rying to escape the inevitable. Montford or Watts aren’t part of this either. But your fantasies about them are a core part of your belief system.

    I have been asking for ‘the reading to do’ here since 1½ years. And you bozos have been deflecting for as long. For the most obvious reason there is … Because you don’t have anything better.

    And Wow makes the most stupid claims imaginable. Even Jeffie wasn’t ever this idiotic! He is insane in many other ways, primarily his imaginations about his ‘opposition’. But he stayed away from such displays of stupidity!

  37. #38 Wow
    December 6, 2012

    “chek, that ‘great scientist’ Jim Hansen promised meter of sea level rise the reminder of this century, because ‘he knows things other don’t’”

    Yers.

    Can you do us a favour?

    Go look at the year on your calendar. Ask a grown-up for help in translating it.

  38. #39 Wow
    December 6, 2012

    “You are just rying to escape the inevitable. Montford or Watts aren’t part of this either.”

    Yes they are.

  39. #40 Wow
    December 6, 2012

    “I have been asking for ‘the reading to do’ here since 1½ years.”

    And apparently you insist that anyone could have found the answer in no time at all.

    Anyone buy you apparently.

    Too dumb to remember to breathe in.

  40. #41 Wow
    December 6, 2012

    “And Wow makes the most stupid claims imaginable.”

    What claims would those be, joan?

    You’re exhibiting exactly the same signs as dementia, you know.

    But that isn’t the case.

    You’re just too dumb to read. Too thick to think. Too lost for words.

  41. #42 Jonas N
    December 6, 2012

    Lionel

    I have seen ExxonSecrets. There is no beef there. I know of the obsesssion with the Koch brothers. There is no beef there either. Neither is there any with that two decade old Lancaster story.

    Now you bring up Monckton as an argument for what? He is Al Gores counterpart, and about 100 times as knowledgable. And nothing I need to rely on.

    Look Lionel, the stupidity abounds on your side. Al Gore is just one of them. Most politicians, churnolists, activists and NGOs are in there.

    None of this proves the climate scare hypothesis wrong. But it seems that you heavily rely on stupid narratives as presented by Oreskes and others. While totally avoiding the relevant topics.

    Look. I could number all the idiots arguing on your side and I would outnumber the cranks you can imagine (mostly wrongly) on the sceptical side by several orders of magnitudes.

    But they are not an argument for why your side is wrong. They just illustrate the number of cooks lining up with your belief system hoping that it’d further their agenda.

    Can’t you try to argue a bit above that sandbox level? Or is Wow really the standard here?

    Monsoon patters that disagree with GHGs forcing models?

  42. #43 chek
    December 6, 2012

    This game is getting beyond your pay grade, Jonarse. You’re making nonsensical non-sequiturs now because you’re disassociated from the meaning of what you’ve previously just said. Which is what happens to most liars and charlatans.

    I’m pretty sure Jim would have felt a certain degree of schadenfreude at seeing New York’s West Side Highway under water last month.

  43. #44 Jonas N
    December 6, 2012

    chek

    If you had any beef here, you’d put it forward by now. Instead you talk about nonsens like ‘pay grade’ ‘corporate world’ to evade the substance.

    Hansen has been spectacularly wrong. Even if you guys would like to move the goal posts. Forget him. Let him torture GISS data as best as he can get away with. He is essentially irrelvant. Why do you want to bring him up when the IPCC cannot even support its own claims? Jim Hansen if he could would probably has done his best to reinforce it …

    But it’s still not in there, chek. You are almost at Wow level in your beliefs …

    ;-)

  44. #45 chek
    December 6, 2012

    Deflection is all you have left, Jonarse. You sure as hell can’t deal with that list of papers or the meaning contained therein. Or the predictions of the likes of Jim Hansen.

    Luckily for you, your double digit IQ gang still fall for the ‘look over there! A squirrel! ruse. For the moment.

  45. #46 Wow
    December 6, 2012

    Well, it’s got to be hard for an old doddering drooling idiot to find out that 18 or more months of hard work was all for naught and if he’d gotten off his fat arse rather than demand aid of others (what a bloody leech!), he’d have had his demand answered within days at most.

    Too dumb to read, too thick to think. And angry at the world not doing what he wants. Proper princess, him.

  46. #47 Wow
    December 6, 2012

    “Let him torture GISS data as best as he can get away with.”

    Another two-faced demand from the dimmest of the dim.

    Apparently he’s the only one allowed to move goalposts.

    Really, joan? Got any proof of that or is this one of the (literally!) countless number of unsupported that are almost entirely wrong?

  47. #48 Jonas N
    December 6, 2012

    BS chek

    I have been asking for those references since almost day one here. And nobody could provide them. The deflection attempts have been on your side!

    The stupid list of papers dealing with (sometimes completely) different things are what have been attempted deflections.

    Now sign Wow is so increadibly stupid, he probably doesn’t know that a skeptic publication about monsson patters does not affirm that AR4 claim anyhow. But the not quite as stupid characters here know and understand this of course. But are too activist too acknowlwge the obvious.

    And Jim Hansen still is no part of this discussion. Maybe one of your ‘heroes’ but I don’t even see any need for ripping his stupidities to shreads.

    Before you faithers realize that your are faithers wrt tp IPCC claims …

  48. #49 chek
    December 7, 2012

    “Another two-faced demand from the dimmest of the dim.
    Apparently he’s the only one allowed to move goalposts.
    Really, joan? Got any proof of that or is this one of the (literally!) countless number of unsupported [claims of yours] that are almost entirely wrong?”

    And you’ve hit the nail smack bang on the head there, Wow.

    Jonarse is allowed to make wild, unsupported claims, and the accompanying clown troupe is meant to go “um yuh, that might be possible .. and probaly is true”. But put peer reviewed science from an arbitrarily assigned ‘activist’ scientist before them and they knee-jerkrejection in response.

    It’s the MO used by Watts, Montford, Mcintyre and Cubicle Kid here. What are the chances they’re using it independently?

    The sheer number of washed up, low-grade management retirees at Montford’s who feel enabled by the Bish to look down on for instance, tthe Head of the R.S. as some sort of moron are an indicator of the intellectual subversion being practised there and elsewhere.

  49. #50 GSW
    December 7, 2012

    @chek,
    ,
    For goodness sake chek, if you don’t know about and have never seen, the empirical evidence for the AR4 “attribution” claim, just say!

    What’s the point of keep bringing non related issues into the discussion? Watts, Montford, McIntyre – Nothing to do with the point at hand, but OK, we get it, you don’t like them.

    We know the reason you keep harping on about “them” is you just don’t understand the attribution claims and use a social ideology for detemining scientific truth -which is definitely the worst possible way of doing so.

    I don’t suppose that after months of prevarication there is any chance you will at this stage reach into your back pocket and say “Oh here’s the evidence, I had it all along”, if you could you would have done that by now, wouldn’t you?

    If you don’t know, just “say” I don’t know” and we can move on. Maybe some of the others will have more of a clue.

  50. #51 Jonas N
    December 7, 2012

    chek,

    Your repeated failings are quite boring. And you still get it wrong.

    I am the one asking for those published papers affirming that AR4 claim. And you are the ones not having seen them.

    I have not commented upon papers I haven’t read. Thats your department. And Wow’s of course. Jeff is making other stuff up.

    And what’s that thing with blind faith in authority. Nothing has to accepted blindly just because Paul Nurs says so. Insterad it is evaluated on its merits. And Nurse has said numerous pretty stupid things about climate change and science.

    You still believe only beacuas you want to believe

  51. #52 FrankD
    December 7, 2012

    I’ve watched this thread on-and-off for the year+ its been running, and by and large thought Jonas had done a pretty fair job of sticking to the most trivial argument I’ve ever seen. But now…
    [Monckton] is Al Gores counterpart, and about 100 times as knowledgable…

    Bwahahahahaha!

    I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone fail so hard. You just made even GSW look smart, and he’s the rube who fell for John’s “ice-age denial” comedy shtick…

    That was almost worth the time I’ve spent down here.

  52. #53 GSW
    December 7, 2012

    @Frank

    Thanks for stopping by Frank. You going to hang around to argue the point? Regulars, don’t seem to have handle on the relationship between claims and evidence, maybe you’re different?

    You could just scuttle off of course.
    ;)

  53. #54 Wow
    December 7, 2012

    ” I have been asking for those references since almost day one here. ”

    And apparently they are something that anyone (but not you) could find easily.

    You had been given them before, but because that required “clicking on a link and reading”, you refused to acknowledge it.

    Too dumb to read, too thick to think and ignorant of everything.

  54. #55 Wow
    December 7, 2012

    “he probably doesn’t know that a skeptic publication about monsson patters does not affirm that AR4 claim anyhow”

    So you’re saying that paper wasn’t science???

    And since I’d already explained this to you: you need to know what’s changed before you can assign reason for that change on AGW, it seems you are far too dumb to read.

  55. #56 Wow
    December 7, 2012

    “What’s the point of keep bringing non related issues into the discussion?”

    You mean like Al Gore and completely made-up allegations against Hansen?

    Yeah, what WAS the point of Joanarse doing that?

  56. #57 chek
    December 7, 2012

    So to summarise, Jonas hasn’t read any of the research papers that AR4 Chapter 9 is synthesised from, but complains there’s no research backing up the Chapter’s conclusions. And it took him this long to get there.

    That really is one for The Global Annals of Idiotic Idiocy by Idiots.

  57. #58 Lionel A
    December 7, 2012

    That really is one for The Global Annals of Idiotic Idiocy by Idiots.

    Yep. And these twits JN, GSW OP are beginning to make Curtin look rational and knowledgeable.

    Cue wailings and nashings of teeth along the lines of ‘what’s that got to do with anything?

    Monty Python has a treasure trove of material for a new farce from these twits. Who will be ‘The Climate Change Twit of the Year’? Curtin was in the running but now …!

  58. #59 Jonas N
    December 7, 2012

    Frank

    You say that the fact that nobody ever seems to have seen the most prominent IPCC AR4 claim, is a trivial argument?

    Well, I wouldn’t put it like that. But it is one where the crowd here at least could come up with a counterargument. Or prove me wrong. And they can’t. Instead we hear all kinds of nonsens and staming of angry little feet about … well whatever flies through their heads.

    There have been better discussions and arguments, but those have been extremeley few and rare. One of the (former) regulars, at least tried and tried hard to invent totally new physics but failed of course.

    But it seems that even the regulars here shun away fron using Al Gore as a source of authority. (But bring up Romm, Cook, Gelbspan and Oreskes). And many of them seem to have some obsession about Monckton. Who of course is not a primary source of any argument either.

    But I stick to what I said. Monckton actually debates those on the other side. Gore is manically afraid of that. even demands that journalists be screened before allowed to his venues. Mann is equally afraid of debating anything or anyone other than sympathetic adulation interviews with softball ‘questions’.

    I think you are the first defender of Al Gore here …

  59. #60 Jonas N
    December 7, 2012

    Wow, you are still not with the program (after 1½ years). But repetition is the key to learning something. So I’ll repeat.

    The most prominent AR4 claim was presented in the SPM and stated:

    “Most of the observed increase in global average temperatures since the mid-20th century is very likely due to the observed increase in anthropogenic greenhouse gas concentrations”

    where this ‘very likely’ is translated to 90% certainty.

    There are two quantified claims there, and I have asked for the science establishing thos claims. And nobody has seen any such science. Nobody has read and can point me to any publications even purporting to establish these numbers.

    And you, chek, Bernard and more, hope to divert from this fact with the most stupid deflections and strawmen imaginable.

    I wonder why that is? (Well, not really. It’s quite easy to imagine why you guys so desperately want to switch the topic. Especially, as Frank D says, since it is on the absolutely most basic and trivial level: Can you show the science behind it?)

  60. #61 Jonas N
    December 7, 2012

    Lionel A

    I’m sorry to have neglected you for some comments. What was your latest point? You after all still believe that Sandy somehow can be shown to have been cause or aggravated by human emissions?

    You share the beliefs of Justin Lancaster, who was Gore’s go-between in dirty politics?

    You believe what Oreskes, Gelbspan and the others say?

    Well, I can’t change your faith (by definition) but I have not seen any arguments from you why such faith would be supportable. You merely linked to mor individuals who share similar beliefs. Which I already knew.

    And your petty attempts at insults are still pathetic and don’t bite ..

  61. #62 Wow
    December 7, 2012

    You’re flailing more than usual, joan.

  62. #63 Wow
    December 7, 2012

    “where this ‘very likely’ is translated to 90% certainty.

    There are two quantified claims there, and I have asked for the science establishing thos claims.”

    And that is the list of papers you’ve been given.

    Since you say that repetition is key to learning, obviously you’re incapable of it.

    I mean, we (and your poor teachers: say hi to your mom and pop for me!) already knew you couldn’t learn, which is why they gave up.

    But in the 40-odd years since you finished “homeschooling” you may have grown up.

    Apparently you’re still stuck at pre-shcool and unwilling to move forward.

  63. #64 Lionel A
    December 7, 2012

    My point:

    Cue wailings and nashings of teeth along the lines of ‘what’s that got to do with anything?

    proven:

    Lionel A

    I’m sorry to have neglected you for some comments. What was your latest point?

    You just cannot help yourself can you.

    The fact that you are still raking over attribution of Sandy, and making up stuff about Lancaster and throwing out Gore’s name as if he was the fulcrum of climate science amply demonstrates your stubborn refusal to educate yourself.

  64. #65 Jonas N
    December 7, 2012

    Wow, well if it was in that list, someone would know in which reference (or references) this has been established. But nobody knows. They just, exactly like you, repeat their idiotic: ‘It’s in there somwhere’ in blind and stupid faith!

    Look, guys, you claim to have the science, the scientists, and facts on your side. But still, almost six years after the release, none of you has a clue!

    It’s no wonder you’re being ridiculed for how poorly you argue. Especially if you pull out a monsoon paper and hope it would be it.

    Lionel, re: Sandy, you confuse general opining with actual science. I know what Lancaster said, he does not convince, but the point is moot anyway!

  65. #66 Wow
    December 7, 2012

    “Wow, well if it was in that list”

    The list IS the science that confirms the claims in AR4 you are asking for.

    Not one of it because, you feckless moron, that is only one data point that is used to determine the effects of AGW and the changes seen in the climate.

    “Most of the warming is due to AGW” requires that you at least list the drivers of climate, ascertain the warming, and assess the contributions of each of those drivers TO that warming.

    Which is why there is no one paper because no one paper is written with all of that information in.

    But then again, you’re too dumb to read. You’re probably crapping yourself transparent at having to read more than one paper.

  66. #67 Wow
    December 7, 2012

    “someone would know in which reference (or references) this has been established.”

    Yes, the list of those papers ARE the references used to make the statement.

    Fuck you’re dumb.

  67. #68 Wow
    December 7, 2012

    “re: Sandy, you confuse general opining with actual science.”

    Just because you think “science” is “anything that says AGW is fake” doesn’t mean that actual science that isn’t saying AGW is fake is not science.

    You are the tweedledumbest.

  68. #69 Olaus Petri
    December 7, 2012

    Poor, poor Wow is in bad need of comfort. He does a full monty rain-dance and calims that a paper on monsoons support his case when it actually contradict his silly claims. Can it get any better? :-D

    Yet he yells “IT IS IN THE LIST”. :-D

    Like Jonas has proven over and over again in these 4000 and counting posts: Deltoid is a climate threat shaking tent full och hot air and brimstone. Nothing else, with exception for stupidity and delusions. ;-)

    Thank god its deflating. The more reasonable readers of this blog have come to thier senses when reading the “Real Science thread”.

    Well done Jonas!

  69. #70 Wow
    December 7, 2012

    “He does a full monty rain-dance and calims that a paper on monsoons support his case when it actually contradict his silly claims.”

    Since my claim was that that paper was one science paper used to come to the conclusion of the AR4 summary claim Jonearse has been whining on about for 18+ months AND IT IS, you seem to be in la-la land.

    This, seemingly, is your permanent abode.

  70. #71 Wow
    December 7, 2012

    Olap dog: proof my claim is right and your assertion wrong:

    Go to the IPCC AR4 Chapter 9 document and go to the references.

    That paper is listed there.

    Since that is the attribution chapter and the claim is about attributing AGW to the change in climate, I win.

  71. #72 Wow
    December 7, 2012

    Maybe the slug hoard could answer questions.

    (yeah, I know, ever the optimist).

    Does humanity’s production of CO2 and agriculture have ZERO effect on the climate.

    Yes or no.

  72. #73 Olaus Petri
    December 7, 2012

    Oh, the “list-argument” again! What a surprise! ;-)

    What does the paper matter Wow, when it contains statements that make you look like first class ass?

    Don’t bother to answer. :-D

  73. #74 Wow
    December 7, 2012

    “Oh, the “list-argument” again! What a surprise!”

    I guess you;re surprised when your check-out lady tells you that the total for your $1.25 bread and $2.60 margerine is $3.85 as well, huh?

    “Don’t bother to answer.”

    This would be because you’re too ignorant to understand, right?

  74. #75 Olaus Petri
    December 7, 2012

    Wow, how thick can one (Wow) be? I have answered Wow’s Q many times already:

    “Does humanity’s production of CO2 and agriculture have ZERO effect on the climate.”

    Answer: No! (Get it this time?)

    My turn. Do you realy think that a paper that contradicts your beliefs strengthen your case? ;-)

  75. #76 Wow
    December 7, 2012

    ““Does humanity’s production of CO2 and agriculture have ZERO effect on the climate.”

    Answer: No! (Get it this time?)”

    OK, so what is the effect?

  76. #77 Wow
    December 7, 2012

    I.e. out of the warming seen so far, how much is due to humanity’s activities.

  77. #78 Olaus Petri
    December 7, 2012

    Wow, I totally understand that you need to ask me what the effect is since you have no clue what the articles you referr to states. :-D

    We don’t know, especially Deltoids and other activist driven portentologists. With 100% certainty! ;-)

  78. #79 Wow
    December 7, 2012

    “We don’t know”

    How would you find out, then?

  79. #80 Wow
    December 7, 2012

    E.g. how much warming has there been since 1850? Where would you find that.

  80. #81 Olaus Petri
    December 7, 2012

    How we would find out you ask me Wow. Well for starters we need to admit that we don’t know. How’s that?

  81. #83 Wow
    December 7, 2012

    “Well for starters we need to admit that we don’t know. How’s that?”

    Ignorant.

    You’re admitting YOU do not know how.

    Do you want to know?

  82. #84 Wow
    December 7, 2012

    Come on, Olap, or is that your only step? “I don’t know”?

  83. #85 Wow
    December 7, 2012

    Come on, you have already said it’s not ZERO effect.

    So you must know SOMETHING about the temperature change since 1850.

    Or do you always make statements you can’t support?

  84. #86 chek
    December 7, 2012

    Careful Wow, you’re getting dangerously close to getting Olouse to try to use his own brain to make his own thoughts, you naughty activist you.

  85. #87 Jonas N
    December 7, 2012

    Lionel

    DeSmogBlog … are you kidding me?

    Wow, you (and others) have informed us that the IPCC has a list of references. You even pretended that this was a big revalation. (It wasn’t of course). The question is whether or not any of these references contains proper science establishing that famous claim.

    None of you knows. But many of you do hope so. And do so in blind faith. You are one of the blind faithers. Which we more sciency types know from early on.

    Unfortunately, you are worse than many of your faither-friends

  86. #88 chek
    December 7, 2012

    “The question is whether or not any of these references contains proper science establishing that famous claim.”

    No Jonarse the question is, how can you have a valid objection when you admit you haven’t read the papers?

    It doesn’t get any simpler than that.

  87. #89 Wow
    December 7, 2012

    “The question is whether or not any of these references contains proper science establishing that famous claim.”

    They do.

    Each plays their part in the claim.

    You’re sitting there looking at a car and whining “Well, which bit of metal is the car?!?!?!?”.

  88. #90 Jonas N
    December 7, 2012

    Sorry chek ..

    But no! This is not how references are referenced. If there is a scientific claim, allegedly based on science, this publication(s)cience is/are referenced together with that claim.

    One doesn’t hide the supporting science from all the whole ‘consensus-agreeing’ scientists so that they cannot find it, and that they all need to take that claim on faith!

    You! Every single one of you, who believe in that (now six year old claim) have done so in blind faith!
    I on the other hand, who know about science, and who’d never accept such claims on hearsay, especially not if it is claimed to be science, have asked for those specific references.

    You haven’t. You wouldn’t. You try at all costs to remain ignorant. You claim it is in there. But you haven’t read, haven’t checked them, you don’t know. You just hope desperately! And the same goes for all others who cannot find and produce any such science.

    Six years later (almost) and regarding ‘the most important issue of our time’, and not one single one of all your ‘the science and scientist on our side’-types can find it anywhere, neither in those references, nor anywhere on the world wide web.

    What is your argument here, chek? That I sould believe you because you blindly believe it? Because everybody else who believes it is equally clueless?

    Jeff here has boasted that he befriends so many scientists and even gets to ‘mingle with big guys’ and non of his friends have seen or find it either?

    You guys have no clue. It really is as simple as that! And on top of it, you actively want to remain both ignorant and mislead.

  89. #91 Wow
    December 7, 2012

    “But no! This is not how references are referenced.”

    Yeah, they’re reerenced like this:

    AchutaRao, K.M., et al., 2006: Variability of ocean heat uptake: Reconciling observations and models. J. Geophys. Res., 111, C05019.

    Ackerman, A.S., et al., 2000: Reduction of tropical cloudiness by soot. Science, 288, 1042–1047.

    Adams, J.B., M.E. Mann, and C.M. Ammann, 2003: Proxy evidence for an El Nino-like response to volcanic forcing. Nature, 426(6964), 274–278.

    Alexander, L.V., et al., 2006: Global observed changes in daily climate extremes of temperature and precipitation. J. Geophys. Res., 111, D05109, doi:10.1029/2005JD006290.

    Allan, R.J., and T.J. Ansell, 2006: A new globally-complete monthly historical gridded mean sea level pressure data set (HadSLP2): 1850-2004. J. Clim., 19, 5816–5842.

    Allen, M.R., 2003: Liability for climate change. Nature, 421, 891–892.

    Allen, M.R., and S.F.B. Tett, 1999: Checking for model consistency in optimal fingerprinting. Clim. Dyn., 15, 419–434.

    Allen, M.R., and W.J. Ingram, 2002: Constraints on future changes in climate and the hydrologic cycle. Nature, 419, 224–232.

    Allen, M.R., and D.A. Stainforth, 2002: Towards objective probabilistic climate forecasting. Nature, 419, 228–228.

    Allen, M.R., and P.A. Stott, 2003: Estimating signal amplitudes in optimal fingerprinting, Part I: Theory. Clim. Dyn., 21, 477–491.

    Allen, M.R., J.A. Kettleborough, and D.A. Stainforth, 2002: Model error in weather and climate forecasting. In: ECMWF Predictability of Weather and Climate Seminar [Palmer, T.N. (ed.)]. European Centre for Medium Range Weather Forecasts, Reading, UK, http://www.ecmwf.int/publications/library/do/references/list/209.

    Allen, M.R., et al., 2000: Quantifying the uncertainty in forecasts of anthropogenic climate change. Nature, 407, 617–620.

    Ammann, C.M., G.A. Meehl, W.M. Washington, and C. Zender, 2003: A monthly and latitudinally varying volcanic forcing dataset in simulations of 20th century climate. Geophys. Res. Lett., 30(12), 1657.

    Anderson, T.L., et al., 2003: Climate forcing by aerosols: A hazy picture. Science, 300, 1103–1104.

    Andronova, N.G., and M.E. Schlesinger, 2000: Causes of global temperature changes during the 19th and 20th centuries. Geophys. Res. Lett., 27(14), 2137–2140.

    Andronova, N.G., and M.E. Schlesinger, 2001: Objective estimation of the probability density function for climate sensitivity. J. Geophys. Res., 106(D19), 22605–22611.

    Andronova, N.G., M.E. Schlesinger, and M.E. Mann, 2004: Are reconstructed pre-instrumental hemispheric temperatures consistent with instrumental hemispheric temperatures? Geophys. Res. Lett., 31, L12202, doi:10.1029/2004GL019658.

    Andronova, N.G., et al., 1999: Radiative forcing by volcanic aerosols from 1850 to 1994. J. Geophys. Res., 104, 16807–16826.

    Andronova, N.G., et al., 2007: The concept of climate sensitivity: History and development. In: Human-Induced Climate Change: An Interdisciplinary Assessment [Schlesinger, M., et al. (eds.)]. Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, UK, in press.

    Annan, J.D., and J.C. Hargreaves, 2006: Using multiple observationally-based constraints to estimate climate sensitivity. Geophys. Res. Lett., 33, L06704, doi:10.1029/2005GL025259.

    Annan, J.D., et al., 2005: Efficiently constraining climate sensitivity with paleoclimate simulations. Scientific Online Letters on the Atmosphere, 1, 181–184.

    Arblaster, J.M., and G.A. Meehl, 2006: Contributions of external forcing to Southern Annular Mode trends. J. Clim., 19, 2896–2905.

    Bader, J., and M. Latif, 2003: The impact of decadal-scale Indian Ocean sea surface temperature anomalies on Sahelian rainfall and the North Atlantic Oscillation. Geophys. Res. Lett., 30(22), 2169.

    Banks, H.T., et al., 2000: Are observed decadal changes in intermediate water masses a signature of anthropogenic climate change? Geophys. Res. Lett., 27, 2961–2964.

    Barnett, T.P., D.W. Pierce, and R. Schnur, 2001: Detection of anthropogenic climate change in the world’s oceans. Science, 292, 270–274.

    Barnett, T.P., et al., 1999: Detection and attribution of recent climate change. Bull. Am. Meteorol. Soc., 80, 2631–2659.

    Barnett, T.P., et al., 2005: Penetration of a warming signal in the world’s oceans: human impacts. Science, 309, 284–287.

    Bauer, E., M. Claussen, V. Brovkin, and A. Huenerbein, 2003: Assessing climate forcings of the Earth system for the past millennium. Geophys. Res. Lett., 30(6), 1276.

    Beltrami, H., J.E. Smerdon, H.N. Pollack, and S. Huang, 2002: Continental heat gain in the global climate system. Geophys. Res. Lett., 29, 1167.

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  90. #92 Wow
    December 7, 2012

    “One doesn’t hide the supporting science from all the whole ‘consensus-agreeing’ scientists so that they cannot find it,”

    The scientists CAN find it.

    You can’t but that’s not notworthy since you’re not a scientist.

  91. #93 Wow
    December 7, 2012

    “I on the other hand, … have asked for those specific references. ”

    And you’ve been given them.

  92. #94 Jonas N
    December 7, 2012

    chek, listen to your buddy Wow ..

    He has found a pile of scrap metal parts, and they are numbered. And Wow asserts: Each of these is part of the whole. Together they form a car. Not only that, a car with specified performans. Nobody can se the car, find that car, even less so establish any possible performance.

    But Wow is certain. It’s in there, all parts of the car, and it’s really really powerful! ‘Trust me’ he says! And trust me on the performance too. I know nothing about any of those parts. Haven’t seen them, don’t know their function, what they are for. Just know that they are numbered. So trust me! I am looking at and can clearly the entire car!

    says Wow.

  93. #95 chek
    December 7, 2012

    “What is your argument here, chek? That I sould believe you because you blindly believe it?”

    No Jonarse, the point has always been that if you wanted to know, you’d read the papers. But you don’t. Instead you make stupid claims about ‘faith’ and ‘hiding’, like the dumb conspiracist you are.

    If you wanted to know you’d read. But instead you’d rather make political claims about ‘activism’ and your own ‘brilliance’, like the vain little tosser you are.

  94. #96 Wow
    December 7, 2012

    “Nobody can se the car”

    Gosh, did you really hear that?

    It’s psychosis, old man.

    Mind you, if you put “Joanarse can’t see the car”, you’d be closer.

  95. #97 Wow
    December 7, 2012

    “But Wow is certain. It’s in there, all parts of the car, and it’s really really powerful! ‘Trust me’ ”

    No, don’t trust me. Read for yourself.

    Oh, I forgot: you’re too dumb to read.

  96. #98 Jonas N
    December 7, 2012

    chek, as I said, this not how science is references. The point is that neither you, nor anybody in the entire world can produce science that properly establishes those two specified and quantified levels. Not even six years later! Although everybody has heard those claims many times!

    Only über-morons like Wow even claim that such science exists at all. In hos case so obviously in blind faith. But the same is true for you. If you believe that claim, you do so in blind faith. As does every single body who believes it!

    Look kids, you say you have all the science and scientists on your side (which you don’t) but still a fair number. And nowhere in the entire world is any such science to be found or even its foundations or details discussed. Nowhere!

    That’s why you (and many others) try to list long lists of irrelevant references to run away from the obvious …

  97. #99 Wow
    December 7, 2012

    “chek, as I said, this not how science is references.”

    Can you stop pretending to be yoda.

  98. #100 Jonas N
    December 7, 2012

    Wow, we all know that imagining things is the preferred method for you and many more here. Now you have imagined a ‘car with outstanding performanc’ in a heap of random pieces of scrap metal parts. Jeffie thinks he can see ‘a higher truth’ by looing inwards into the big emptiness filld to the brim with fantasies ..