Jonas Thread

By popular request, here is the Jonas thread. All comments by Jonas and replies to his comments belong in this thread.

Comments

  1. #1 Jonas N
    December 11, 2012

    Correction:

    or we have the nutters brigade claiming that the eating of the forrest is in the trees, or the high performance car is in blindly swallowning the scrap metal parts..

  2. #2 chek
    December 11, 2012

    “Either it’s in there. And everyone can look at it”

    To correct your fallacy, what you actually should say is “Everyone with the qualifications, experience and intelligence”.

    Without all three, the numbers are meaningless, and that’s where you’ve failed everytime on all three counts. Disappointing as it must be for a raging egotist like you, the fact is you’re not quaified Jonarse.

    Montford’s farm entertainment is the highpoint of your future, m’lad.

  3. #3 GSW
    December 11, 2012

    @All

    Reposting this from earlier in an attempt to arrive at a concensus, before we were side tracked on to puddings which I still maintain is a “non issue”.

    We’ve arrived at the conclusion that there is no empirical evidence behind the Sandy attribution claim.[At least as far as anybody here is aware]

    We’ve arrived at the conclusion that there is no empirical evidence behind the AR4 attribution claim.[At least as far as anybody here is aware]

    But you guys go around trumpeting these things as undeniable fact! The Science says etc… when it does no such thing!

    It’s “Faither’s” that believe without evidence. Read the 8 symptoms of Groupthink again – it’s you lot to a Tee.

  4. #4 chek
    December 11, 2012

    Purely an afterthought Jonarse (and this can include any of your plug-in support personalities) link me to one conversation anywhere on the internet you’ve had with an accredited scientist, or a publication presented, where you haven’t been dismissed as a crazy-cracker whang-bang within five hundred words.

    I’m betting someone with your obviously self-honed and highly self-regarded skillset and erudition has never managed it. Ever.

  5. #5 chek
    December 11, 2012

    Aww, c’mon Jonarse. There must be many occasions where you’ve had cause to point out to professional scientists where they’re getting it all wrong. Or is it just climate scientists that you conveniently (bearing in mind the proven well-funded campaign against them) have issues with, while woefully lacking in education or expertise yourself? Not like that’s ever deterred a crank!

    Come now Jonarse don’t be shy. Someone with your giant ego must have been raliing against poor professional standards for years now in a whole host of scientific fields… yes?

    No, I didn’t think so either.

  6. #6 Wow
    December 11, 2012

    Jesus, those two clowns take a hell of a lot of time to say bugger all.

    They don’t even manage bollocks any more, their posts are now completely content free.

    I guess they found that even the tiniest bit of actual information detracts from their religious mantras.

  7. #7 Vince Whirlwind
    December 12, 2012

    We can believe GSW, who’s never said anything sensible, or we can believe BoM:
    “Tropical cyclones derive their energy from the warm tropical oceans”
    And NASA:
    “extra-tropical cyclones are fueled by sharp temperature contrasts between masses of warm and cool air.”
    and NOAA
    http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/tafb/atl_anom.gif

    Or, as summarised by a respected professional:
    “The sea surface temperatures along the Atlantic coast have been running at over 3°C above normal for a region extending 800 km off shore all the way from Florida to Canada. Global warming contributes 0.6°C to this. With every degree C, the water holding of the atmosphere goes up 7%, and the moisture provides fuel for the tropical storm, increases its intensity, and magnifies the rainfall by double that amount compared with normal conditions. Global climate change has contributed to the higher sea surface and ocean temperatures, and a warmer and moister atmosphere, and its effects are in the range of 5 to 10%.”

    Where does that leave GSW and his ineffectual blathering?

  8. #8 Jonas N
    December 12, 2012

    chek, you’re not making any sense and you are changing your story (if there ever was a coherent one)

    Obviously I am right about:
    “Either it’s in there. And everyone can look at it”

    Your reply:
    “To correct your fallacy, what you actually should say is “Everyone with the qualifications, experience and intelligence”.

    would imply that all of you here (and everywhere else) who have tried identifying the science behind them AR4 claims lack those requirements.

    “Without all three, the numbers are meaningless”

    Oh certainly, numbers are meaninglsess to quite a lot of you. But you don’t even know what papers supposedly contain those numbers. You are still just guessing and hoping in blind faith (or rather desperation by now).

    To me, numbers matter. And that’s why I have been asking to see them. And as I said: “Either it’s in there. And everyone can look at it …”

    You still seem to be in denial about reality, chek … And in your latest attempt to get around it you disqualified all I’ve ever asked “on all three counts”

  9. #9 Jonas N
    December 12, 2012

    Wow, you were saying something about ‘content free comments’ and ‘religious mantras’!?

    Have you found the car yet? Among those random pieces? And what it’s capable off? Or was that just another content free guess conforming with your relgious beliefs?

    Don’t answer. It was a rhetorical quesstion ….

    :-)

  10. #10 Jonas N
    December 12, 2012

    PS Wow, that means that the answer is obvious

  11. #11 GSW
    December 12, 2012

    @Vince

    Thanks Vince, if you’d been paying attention you would have known we already did Trenberth. Your “Mystery” professional.

  12. #12 Vince Whirlwind
    December 12, 2012

    Another content-free contribution from GSW that doesn’t even attempt to grapple with anything substantive.

    Does warm water feed cyclones?
    Is the Atlantic warm?

    Are the BoM, NASA, and NOAA all completely ignorant and does the thoroughly unqualified GSW know way more than they do?

    These are the questions that your delusion prevents you from answering.

    Dumber than Bolt.

  13. #13 GSW
    December 12, 2012

    @Vince

    Quick catch up for your on attribution of Sandy; Trenberth’s view that it isn’t the right question – well, unfortunately it’s the one being asked. Trenberth’s musings on a different question are of no doubt of interest to him, but of no interest to those seeking a nod (or otherwise) on attribution.

    Another way of posing this to you, if we can’t detect any increase in the intensity of hurricanes and we don’t get more of them, what difference does it make to anybody? The world is as it was! No matter what Trenberth’s answer to a different question says.

  14. #14 Wow
    December 12, 2012

    Quick catch-up, you insist that it is answered.

    How come you believe Trenberth here but nowhere else?

    Another content-free wibbling from the dumbest of the dumb.

  15. #15 Olaus Petri
    December 12, 2012

    NO holds barred among the portentologists I see. :-D The fired-faced and CV-waiving climate scare geezer is really hitting it off sticking to hos fantasies and infantile conspircies instead of adressing topics from the real world.

    And his arm candy follow suit trying to patch up their damages egos with insults and more fantasies. :-D

  16. #16 Jeff Harvey
    December 12, 2012

    Another illiterate cement-headed post from Olaus. No surprise there.

    If one hasn’t got a clue about something, then demean and ridicule it. Its what the unholy trinity have mastered on the asylum thread. None of them have read anything on the topic of lobbying, therefore it doesn’t exist.

    Talk about stupid.

  17. #17 Lionel A
    December 12, 2012

    More for The Wendy Club to take note of, I will ignore non sensible replies from their direction:

    Interview: ‘Chasing Ice’ Star James Balog Talks Art, Science, Rationality, And Climate Denial.

    You see it matters not how you try to distort the real message nature will always do what nature does, as Richard Feynman pointed out in his Challenger shuttle disaster report. And when you poke nature with a big stick (elevated GHG levels from human activities) the nature will, respond and is doing just that.

    I have been following the work of Balog and Extreme Ice Survey for some time now and their pictures are proof that it isn’t all about sensible heat.

    The Wendy Club can shout and scream all they like but their case is empty. And how many direct questions has the circus troop leader now evaded? I doubt he knows, not being able to count into two digits. What a shower of jerks!

  18. #18 Jonas N
    December 12, 2012

    VInce W

    You haven’t been paying attention, have your?

    You post som trivial facts about storms being driven by temperature differences and such, which nobody ever doubted, and which has been the reason as long as there has been weather .. You link to some colourful graphic purporting to show temperature anomalies, and regionally (already a reason to be wary. And further to copy (anonymously) to some text by Trenberth who firstly already is know for making unwarranted links to storms, but which secondly deals with something different:

    Even if the Trenberth-claims are highly speculative and not very accurate (about the numbers), he is speaking about global warming, very carfully avoiding to talk about any possible anthropogenic part of it. Same goes for his sealevel arguments (which is truly pathetic). Meaning that his hypothesized percentage claims would be barely detectable. But more specifically, he doesn’t even try to link Sandy or part of it to human CO2. He just does the usual handwaiving, underlining and omitting the relevant words to give the impression of something other than he can support.

    And still, these are his opinions, and the attribution of any of this, of numbers, is not established by opiniong about them. Not even ‘expert-opining’, and particularly not exrrets who have been playing fast and lose with the truth before on the very same subject, Vince …

    But had you been pying attention, you could have picked all this up already before. And as you might know (and I’ve been pointing out here, for 1½ years) in real science you have to pay attention to the details, all the details. If you can’t even read simpler statements (like yours) correctly, you will inevitably go astray .. especially if the purpose was to give you another impression than what can be supported.

  19. #19 Lionel A
    December 12, 2012

    VInce W

    You haven’t been paying attention, have your?

    Now I am not replying to you but at you. There is a subtle difference, one that you probably won’t grasp, but that’s your problem.

    When all one gets is ‘white noise’ one filters it out. You use so many, many words to say nothing of value and that is ‘white noise’.

  20. #20 Jonas N
    December 12, 2012

    And I notice that our friend Jeffie, in his padded zone, once again tries to defy the gravity of reality. First he thinks chek has come with som brilliant deadly (p”ure magic”) demolishing (while actually declaring all of you, including himself as incompetent for not being able to find the references) by “asking the right questions”. And of course Jeffie (in his patented style) directly goes on to declare ‘the truth’ about it, ie fabricating his own facts once more.

    Had he been paying attention here, he would have known that his ‘facts’ had been proven wrong at this fine site (where some people pretend to ‘defend science’ while a few actually discuss its contents). Even more funny is that our own Jeffie-troll was quick to comment even then (and actually partly quite sensibly).

    However, this of course was not the only one I’ve asked. And I would challenge you to find any one (climate sceintist) working on attribution to defend that AR4 claim based on science. Have agreeing opinions, yes. But that’s something very different, as all scientists among you should know from early on (but I fear that you don’t)

  21. #21 Wow
    December 12, 2012

    So, Olap, how would you determine whether there’s been any warming?

  22. #22 Jonas N
    December 12, 2012

    Lionel A

    I don’t think you should be talking about noise levels either. As I’ve told you before, you don’t seem to know that much about what is required in real science. Instead you seem to have been thrawling the net for support of your beliefs (and found such). But then gone on from there tho also believe, that everything you hear/read (from one side) also must be the truth. And that is a very fatal mistake.

    Wrt Trenberth here, you already lost the argument. Even an über-alarmist and activist like Trenberth, essentially confirms what I’ve been saying. Such attribution is essentially impossible (even if it were to exist to his assumed levels today).

    Sorry Lionel, but piling up childish insults will not change that fact.

  23. #23 Jeff Harvey
    December 12, 2012

    Padded zone? You really are a dork, Jonas. Look at the walls all around you, dumbass! This is the padded cell. Named in your honor. Its probably your biggest achievement yet in science. Congratulations!

    FYI, I am revising a paper we are going to submit to PLoS Biology. I co-authored on that went into the same journal three weeks ago. I’ve had 15 papers this year… what’s your tally, Jonas?

    Lastly, did you even watch any of the video? Or, in true Jonas fashion, do you just ignore it and claim that the presenter isn’t a ‘real’ scientist? Of all the idiotic things you’ve said, Jonas (and we could write an encyclopedia on that) your claim to be able to summarily dismiss scientists with years of research, hundreds of publications and pedigree in their fields is quite remarkable.

    What facts have been proven wrong, you clown? The polar bear arguments? I was correct. GSWs feeble foray into discussing the factors underlying amphibian declines? Ditto. I was correct again. The prevailing view amongst the scientific community on the human component underpinning the recent and current warming? Unless you think a few pseudos on the academic fringe and a bevvy of right wing think tanks are correct, then you lose again.

    I have explained the basis of the 90% attribution figure. You appear to be the only sad git on the planet who obsesses over it. As Chek said, a one riff man, and the only man (along with your few acolytes here) who obsesses over it.

  24. #24 Jeff Harvey
    December 12, 2012

    “Even an über-alarmist and activist like Trenberth”

    Lionel, Chek, Wow, Vince, Frank: why are we even responding to this grade A idiot? Statements like this alone underpin the fact that he is as biased and dishonest as they come.

  25. #25 Jonas N
    December 12, 2012

    Ah Jeff … once more you try labelling me ab ‘idiot’ even a ‘ grade A idiot’.. While none of you can come up with proper answers, or just deal with the facts and issues on the table.

    I have explained to you before why Trenberth shouldn’t be viewed as a neutral arbiter of facts and science. He very very much has a dog in this fight, and has been (scientifically) hurt over his activism. You may deny that, Jeff, but your opinons will not change that fact. Neither will your childish attempts at insults.

    But I appreciate that you once more lean towards, and appeal to some of the lower commenters here, who are (sometimes) even worse than you. Like spambot-emulator Wow, or ‘errorbar-demander’ Frank. You belong with these guys, and I appreciate both you and them, holding and hiding behind each others skirts, when unable to debate (well almost) anything ..

    And Jeff, you are the dishonest one here. Fabricating all kinds of thins out of the emptiness between your ears, sometimes (quite regularly) even in direct contradiction what was said just a few comments earlier. Or you are a compulsive mythomaniac unable tocontrol your urges.

    You want to call me a grade A idiot, but the idiocy in your own and many other’s comments you are either totally unaware of, or it doesn’t bother you because they are puking in your preferred direction!?

  26. #26 Jonas N
    December 12, 2012

    BTW Jeff, I missed commenting on your latest update of your CV-polishing again. Consider it noticed … :-)

    But yes, It is your padded zone. You’ve been screaming here for 1½ years, that I should be banned, even from this thread. You are so afraid of dealing with even the simpler facts, that having people silenced (even ‘swatted out’) is what your hope for. Unfortunately, quite a few on your side harbour equally fascist dreams. And say so openly. But additionally don’t want to be openly opposed in public …

    And regarding the climate hysteria, your mega billion buck industry often tries its damndest to silence dissent.

    Well Jeff, I think (don’t know, but think and hope) that your side has peaked, that it culminated with the 2006/2007 Peace Priece and Gore-mockumentary … and that better science slowly is entering the field, that those loony green policies (windmill parks, solar subsidies) will dwindle and go bankrupt. Unfortunaltey, a lot of damage has already been done, and will cost decent people a lot for a long time to come. But hopfully the stupdities this time will be exposed before the lead to full blown human disasters as in last centurey …

    I can’t be certain, but fascism, communism and other socialism gone berserk is hopefully a thing of the past.

  27. #27 GSW
    December 12, 2012

    @Jeff

    “What facts have been proven wrong, you clown? The polar bear arguments? I was correct. GSWs feeble foray into discussing the factors underlying amphibian declines? Ditto. I was correct again.”

    Wha? Ah, that’s how you spend your twilight years on St Helena, fantasizing about past glories that never happened, at least not in the world outside your head anyway. Bit sad really.
    ;)

  28. #28 FrankD
    December 12, 2012

    Lionel, Chek, Wow, Vince, Frank: why are we even responding to this grade A idiot?

    I can’t speak for you Jeff, but I’m here because he’s become hilarious. I’m betting that he could prattle on here for another 18 months without ever twigging why his 100 times comment was so funny.

    More projection than a multiplex cinema. Self-delusion to rival Monty Python’s Black Knight. And each just a little more shrill than the last. I predict cockroaches by Christmas. :-)

  29. #29 Jonas N
    December 12, 2012

    Jeff .. I just opened that video with Kevin Anderson. And he starts out pomising some 3.5 degrees C rise by 2040, ie in 27 year ( 4.2 C over ‘preindustrial’ and 6 C by the end of the century)

    That is close to 10 times the rate we have been seeing so far (and allowing the most alarmistic interpretations of the record).

    You call this ‘sobering’ … Well, insobriety is a better description, both for the contents and those who actually swallow this.

    It seems as if you (who are dangerously unaware of how proper science needs to be done) put a very large part of your faith in ‘future experts’ who promise disaster. And of course, such and similar cults have always attracted a certain membership …

    But their leaders usually live quite comfortable lives and continue to do so …

  30. #30 Jonas N
    December 12, 2012

    FrankD

    Usually I expect people to bring on the best arguments they have …

  31. #31 Jeff Harvey
    December 12, 2012

    “You’ve been screaming here for 1½ years”

    Not THAT number again. Sigh.

    And I don’t scream at intelletual wannabes. At least get THAT straight. You aren’t worth it.

    See Frank’s last posting. I think that pretty well sums up my attitude towards you and your joker pack as well.

    Finallky this gem: ” I have explained to you before why Trenberth shouldn’t be viewed as a neutral arbiter of facts and science. He very very much has a dog in this fight, and has been (scientifically) hurt over his activism”

    And Watts, McIntyre, Morano, the Heartland Institute et al. are ‘neutral’ arbiters?!?!

    Your posts get funnier by the minute.

  32. #32 Jonas N
    December 12, 2012

    You just don’t get it Jeff!? lindly swinging at fabricated strawmen again!

    Neither of those you name are neutral arbiters, or should be viewed as original sources for anything (apart the actual work theydo).

    However, they in various ways inform us of various things you and the alarmist side would rather have hidden and never discussed … That’s also why you are so obsessed with them and try to smear them in al (un-)thinkable ways. Like the incessant conspiracy theories that they are front for a big oil lobby etc ..

    Peter Gleick just went further down that nutter alley than many of you. But DeSmogBlog etc theu’re all in there with him, and Lionel gets his ‘fact’ from them.

  33. #33 Jonas N
    December 12, 2012

    And oh, Jeffie ..

    You don’t scream at people, you say. You called me an grade A idiot, in a matter-of-fact kind of level tone,as a statement of fact and (in accordance with FrankD’s demands) attached error margins and explained how you ‘derived’ that fact.

    Sure, Jeff. Here’s the question for you:

    Do you then scream at your intellectual superiors?

  34. #34 chek
    December 12, 2012

    Jonarse really does cherish a fantasy version of his ‘reality’ that is almost good enough to be a spoof! The actual everyday word is of course ‘delusional’.
    And if “(apart the actual work they do)”( isn’t arse covering denialism of the most personality-as-celeb-culture-obviousness …
    Hint Jonarse – it’s the work they do that gives them their status. That must be hard to swallow when you yourself have nothing whatsoever to offer apart from lo-rent innuendo backed up by even less of nothing than you usually have.

  35. #35 Jonas N
    December 12, 2012

    chek, you have been delusional as long as I have seen you here. No content what so ever. Jonarse this, Jonarse that … denialist and what else.

    and your fantasies that the magic tree is somwhere in the middle of the forrest. But only the selected would be able to recognize it.

    Delusional nutter stuff … But you’re not alone, if that is of any comfort. Jeff thought your demolishing denial was ‘pure magic’! FrankD thinks he finally found some leverage. Wow … well, lets not mention him. And Lionel desperately hopes that Sandy is attrubuted to human CO2.

    And among you, you reinforce how right you are. Brilliant …

    ;-)

  36. #36 chek
    December 12, 2012

    “and your fantasies that the magic tree is somwhere in the middle of the forrest. But only the selected “qualified” would be able to recognize it.”

    Quite a difference in meaning there Jonarse. No doubt jealousy at exclusion is also at root part of your little ideological jihad. But if you were born thick and can’t make the grade no matter how much you wish and wish and stamp your foot, too bad. That’s life

  37. #37 Lionel A
    December 12, 2012

    That’s life

    That’s right chek ‘but not as we know it’, I think Jonas ‘Wendy’ N is a Klingon. Klingingon to his fantasies.

  38. #38 Jeff Harvey
    December 12, 2012

    Jonas,

    I am very calm when I call you a grade A idiot. No screaming necessary. And certainly not over some low grade web inhabiting denier pundit. Heck, its not like you are famous or anything. You are an anonymous little blip.

    You are loathe to admit that you don’t know much about political advocacy, which you clearly know nothing about. You have said several times how brilliant you are, that you have a fantastic education et al. ad nauseum, but you never provide any proof of it. Its your word, and we are supposed to swallow it. At least I have provided evidence, a word you through about flippantly with respect to evidence for AGW.

    As for Kevin Anderson’s quite outstanding lecture, it is also clear that you hardly looked at it. He uses as his basis for projected temeprature increases the conclusions of a think tank, the International Energy Agency (hardly left wing loonies there). The fact is that even many on the political right are waking up to the reality of AGW. Your rank hatred of climate blogs like DeSmog, this one and related sites, whilst giving sites like WUWT and Bishop’s Hill a free pass, is further evidnece of your libertarian bias. You don’t hesitate to smear the names of scientists you don’t like, either. I’d love to see you give a performance at an international conference some time. That would be a real hoot, seeing you shouting at delegates you don’t like how much they aren’t ‘real’ scientists like your heroes Lindzen, Michaels, Balling, Idso, Baliunas, Singer and the other think tank brigadiers.

    But you don’t do conferences, do you Jonas? You don’t do peer-reviewed papers either, or lectures. So what is it exactly that you do? OH. YES. Of course! Stand by on the sidelines and snipe away. Pass judgment as if your view is the bottom line. You and GSW have that art mastered. And your trained monkey (Olaus) is there to provide support.

  39. #39 Jonas N
    December 12, 2012

    Jeff, the video Anderson video kept getting hung around 10 minutes .. but his startout was nuttery ..

    And I wonder why som many on your side must hinge on the nuttiest prophecies … a tenfold warming rate compared to hiterto observed, and sustained over decades.

    Sure, you want to believe this stuff, your call. But nuttery neverthe less (even if its from non-leftwing-loonies).

    And no, hardly anything you written to me has ever been calm or balanced. You just aren’t calm and balanced. You are angry, impulsive, compulsive and emotional … almost everytime you post here.

    And you need to fabricate your own ‘truths’ as you have for 1½ years. Why do you think this is so necessary for you?

  40. #40 Lionel A
    December 12, 2012

    Jonas’s spin becomes flat – the outlook is thus terminal.

    That’s a figure of speech based upon an aviation phenomenon.

    Just as dog-watch was a figure of speech based on common RN idiom.

    Just because you don’t know ought about those also does not invalidate their use.

    Once again this is at you not to you.

  41. #41 Jeff Harvey
    December 12, 2012

    “You are angry, impulsive, compulsive and emotional … almost everytime you post here”

    No, I only get like that when Dallas Cowboys lose… or I can’t find my Overkill or Testament CDs… or if my latest paper is bounced from Animal Behaviour…

    Here? You? No.

  42. #42 Jeff Harvey
    December 12, 2012

    Jonas, Since you’ve said 1½ years about a million times now, I can’t wait for the 2 year target to pass… just to see a new number….

  43. #43 Wow
    December 12, 2012

    Trenberth (2012) “All weather events are affected by climate change because the environment in which they occur is warmer and moister than it used to be.”

    I guess GSW will now, because he cites Trenberth as such a source of correct knowledge, that Sandy is attributable to AGW.

  44. #44 Wow
    December 12, 2012

    “You’ve been screaming here for 1½ years”

    Typing doesn’t scream, Joan.

    Any screaming you hear is in your own head.

  45. #45 Wow
    December 12, 2012

    Frank, you’ll notice that Olap is reticent now about pursuit of the scientific method.

    He was all gung-ho about how he doesn’t deny it’s warming, but he caught himself having to explain that he doesn’t know why he thinks it warming.

    And refuses to work out how you’d go about finding out if the weather is getting warmer.

  46. #46 Jonas N
    December 12, 2012

    Jeff ..

    For 1½ years you’ve been:

    1) Waiving your CV as it it was some kind of an argument for anything

    2) Trying to label others as idiots, deniers, DK-afflicties, mentally ill, and much more

    3) Invented (fabricated) all kind of your own ‘fact’ about your opponents

    4) Attacked whole brigades strawmen errected by your own fantasy

    5) Been largely unable to address any of the relevant topics and questions about them, even re: your own statements

    6) Displayed absolutely terrible logic in almost any kind of
    argument or reasoning

    7) Have made gross factual errors, and counterfactual claims about what others stated. And of course:

    8) Been exceedingly rude, while at the same time whining about much not receiving enough reverence from those responding

    (9) Possibly you have been dishonest about more than one thing. Your claimed calmness while displaying all of the above, is very hard to believe)

    But all of these things have been of your own choice, and I will gladly remind you of them again when we hit the 2-year mark.

  47. #47 Wow
    December 12, 2012

    “1) Waiving”

    Read a dictionary.

    It’s you who keep demanding to see his CV.

  48. #48 Wow
    December 12, 2012

    “2) Trying to label others as idiots, deniers, DK-afflicties, mentally ill, and much more”

    No, accurately labelling people who are idiots, deniers, DK-sufferers, mentally deficient and so on.

    I.e. you.

    “3) Invented (fabricated) …”

    Nope, that’d be you again. You only have invented statements as of fact.

    “Attacked whole brigades strawmen errected by your own fantasy”

    Still you.

    “Been largely unable to address any of the relevant topics and questions about them, even re: your own statements”

    You again.

    “Displayed absolutely terrible logic in almost any kind of
    argument or reasoning”

    Yup, you again.

    “Have made gross factual errors, and counterfactual claims about what others stated.”

    And this is yet again you.

    “Been exceedingly rude, while at the same time whining about much not receiving enough reverence from those responding”

    Hey, these are all YOU!

    “Possibly you have been dishonest about more than one thing. Your claimed calmness while displaying all of the above, is very hard to believe)”

    So definitely you.

    But all of these things have been of your own choice.

  49. #49 Jonas N
    December 12, 2012

    Lionel A

    You have informed me of your beliefs wrt to Sandy and that (some part of) it can be attributed to human CO2. You even gave a lot of links which you hoped demonstrated such attribution.

    Well Lionel, they did not. They weren’t even close or only attempting that. They repeated the belief that there can have been som influence. But that is something completely different.

    I am sorry that you are unable to distinguish the two, but thats your problem. And I think you have more urgen difficulties than that which you should tackle before.

    For starters, you should try to learn what the deabte actually is about. CLinging to blind beliefs of how incompetent your opposition must be, lands you right there with the Jeffies, Bernards, checks and others. And your arguments look like those of a fool …

    This becaomes even more obvious if you feel that terms like ‘denier’ and ‘moron’ somehow strengten your position.

    And please don’t pretend to know about science or the scientific method ..

  50. #50 Jonas N
    December 12, 2012

    Jeff, I forgot one important point above.

    9) Albeit having being helped on several of the simpler aspects of ‘the scientific method’ you are unbelievably ignorant of what it requiers and why it is important to adhere to it. (You seem to think that ‘publication’ is the highest pinnacle of science. It most definitely is not)

  51. #51 Jonas N
    December 12, 2012

    chek

    What you are saying is that absolutely no one here, nor elsewhere in the entire world has been ‘qualified’ to identify your gem tree in the forrest.

    That’s what I’ve been saying the entire time: You are taking its existence in blind faith …

  52. #52 Lionel A
    December 12, 2012

    Jonas ‘Wendy’ N, another for you to listen and learn something, and note in the 2012 Cryosphere Investigator Award presentation we heard these words:

    …Dual approach of using theory AND climate models

    , think about the significance of that.

    Nye Lecture: C24A. ‘Hot Ice and Wondrous Strange Snow': Three-Phase Mixtures or…

  53. #53 Wow
    December 12, 2012

    “Well Lionel, they did not.”

    Well, Joan, actually they did. They were pretty much dead on the money. YOU didn’t understand them, though. It would have helped if you’d read them, but that isn’t actually possible for you.

    “They repeated the belief that there can have been som influence.”

    Even you admitted high SSTs are the creator of hurricanes.

    Are you denying that now?

  54. #54 Wow
    December 12, 2012

    “9) Albeit having being helped on several of the simpler aspects of ‘the scientific method’ you are unbelievably ignorant of what it requiers and why it is important to adhere to it”

    Nope, you again.

    PS you seem to think that publishing is proof of error. It is not.

  55. #55 Wow
    December 12, 2012

    Let me tell you how it will be
    There’s CV for you, no CV for me
    ‘Cause I’m the twat man, yeah, I’m the twatman

    Should two per cent appear too small
    Be thankful we have any at all
    ‘Cause I’m the twatman, yeah I’m the twatman

    If you give me proofs, I just won’t see
    If you insist, I’ll talk just shit
    If you get too close I’ll run away
    If you go away I’ll say “I beat!”

    Don’t ask me what I want it for
    Give me stuff I just whine more
    ‘Cause I’m the twatman, yeah, I’m the twatman

    Now my advice for those who die
    I’ve had mine, you’re gonna fry
    ‘Cause I’m the twatman, yeah, I’m the twatman
    And they’re working to enslave me, I am sure.

  56. #56 chek
    December 12, 2012

    “What you are saying is that absolutely no one here, nor elsewhere in the entire world has been ‘qualified’ to identify your gem tree in the forrest”.

    No that’s specifically NOT it. My point is that those qualified see past the single tree that you’re fixated on and can see the forest. Hence the reference to Birnam (Burnham) Wood coming to burn down your castle earlier. Try reading Macbeth to understand that analogy

    Incidentally that neatly encapsualtes two items you accuse Jeff of in one single short post from you: viz. “Displayed absolutely terrible logic in almost any kind of
    argument or reasoning” and: “Have made gross factual errors, and counterfactual claims about what others stated.”

    Perhaps you’ll also now understand the psychological phenomenom of ‘projection’ you’ve often been accused of too.

  57. #57 GSW
    December 12, 2012

    @All

    This just keeps getting derailed, it would be good if we could arrive at a concensus position on the following;

    We’ve arrived at the conclusion that there is no empirical evidence behind the Sandy attribution claim.[At least as far as anybody here is aware]

    We’ve arrived at the conclusion that there is no empirical evidence behind the AR4 attribution claim.[At least as far as anybody here is aware]

    I think that by default we all agree these are true; no empirical evidence forthcoming after some considerable period of time.

    It’s time for honesty here I think.

  58. #58 Wow
    December 12, 2012

    No, you’re just talking pish, GSW.

  59. #59 chek
    December 12, 2012

    … and ignorant, uninformed pish at that.

    Come back when you’ve had a few relevant papers published, Griselda. Your two-bit layman’s wishful thinking is only good for helping fluff up your Jonarse fantasies of an evening.

  60. #60 GSW
    December 12, 2012

    @chek,

    That’s ok chek, I don’t even expect you to understand what is being asked- So out pops your bland comment, hoping it will all go away and someone else changes the subject.

  61. #61 chek
    December 12, 2012

    Oh and Griselda, you see that trail of dismembered limbs and viscera leading to that head somehow still managing to say his nonsense catchphrase but nothing else apart from other random disjointed nonsense and now exposed self-recrimination?

    That’s your ‘hero’ Jonarse, that is.

  62. #62 Lionel A
    December 12, 2012

    That’s your ‘hero’ Jonarse, that is.

    Which by now is that eyeball rolling along the ground saying to itself ‘eye should have looked, eye should have read’. SAD.

    BTW It may surprise the Wendy Club to learn that the retina etc is classed as a part of the brain, an extension of.

  63. #63 chek
    December 12, 2012

    That’s ok Griselda, I don’t even expect you to understand even the most minute aspect of planetary climate.

    You keep on playing support plug-in for your distressed ‘hero’, and who knows, one day he may return on a white charger wraithed in silver clouds to sweep you off your feet to a land where the IPCC are never heard of, because you’re all too illiterate.

  64. #64 GSW
    December 12, 2012

    @Lionel,chek

    “hoping it will all go away and someone else changes the subject.”

    Which Lionel just bizarrely attempted with,

    “to learn that the retina etc is classed as a part of the brain, an extension of.”

    Dear me, you just can’t face the truth can you, but we knew that already. How sad.

  65. #65 Wow
    December 12, 2012

    “I don’t even expect you to understand what is being asked-”

    No, we understand what you’re asking. That, however, is the problem: you’re asking us to lie.

    Unless you’re affirming the “Royal We”, you are alone with Joan in your assertion that there’s no science behind the AR4 claims.

  66. #66 GSW
    December 12, 2012

    @All

    Ok, so far we have two (Lionel,chek) that choose to “opt out” of reality, anymore?

  67. #67 GSW
    December 12, 2012

    @wow

    Don’t worry wow, I’m not counting you – you were never truly “in reality” in the first place. Be unfair to say you had “opted out” of something you weren’t even aware of.

  68. #68 chek
    December 12, 2012

    Griselda, are you familiar with the phrase ‘whistling in the dark?’
    Because that’s what you’re doing.
    It’s what morons do when they’ve got nothing, not even nerve.

  69. #69 GSW
    December 12, 2012

    @chek

    It’s alright chek, I’ve counted you already.

  70. #70 Wow
    December 12, 2012

    Hey, GSW, you weren’t counting me because you can’t count.

  71. #71 Wow
    December 12, 2012

    And what “reality” are you talking about?

    It certainly isn’t one where “there is no science behind the AR4 claims”.

    Do you want the list of papers again?

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  72. #72 Jonas N
    December 12, 2012

    chek, your problem is that I can read such science, I can see both if that claim is addressed and how it is tackled, and if they actually manage to domonstrate those levels.

    I am fully aware that you can’t (and th

    at many others here can’t either).

    But your stupid analogy with a forrest of trees at best beating around some little bush, but all these trees and bushes together form some higher truth .. is just plain ridiculous. It shows (once more) that you have no clue about how real science is done.

    It’s the Jeffie-style version, ‘if sufficiently many talk about it often, repeat it, believe and agree, than it somehow strengthens the belief and the hypothesis.

    No!

    It doens’t work that way! Never did!

    It’s nonsense: “Those qualified to see” can see the forrest, and from that view determine things no one managed to see and claim and demonstrate individually. Its sheer and utter nonsense, chek. Nothing else! And it’s what you and quite a few more here have been spouting since I raised the question.

    Lionel is getting utterly pathetic, thinking that presentations and reports about other things somehow make Sandy attributable to human CO2. by lining up people who also would like it to be so. He too is completely unaware of what real science is. Its once more the handwaving stuff: ‘But the proper experts can feel the connection’. Sheer nonsense!

  73. #73 Wow
    December 12, 2012

    Also, what about the reality where you failed to answer the question “How do you find out how the climate has changed”?

    Are you still not visiting that reality?

  74. #74 Wow
    December 12, 2012

    “chek, your problem is that I can read such science,”

    If you can, the problem must therefore be that you won’t.

  75. #75 chek
    December 12, 2012

    You have to be numerate to count, Griselda. But luckily for you the nothing that you possess might be just within your grasp.

  76. #76 Wow
    December 12, 2012

    ” ‘if sufficiently many talk about it often, repeat it, believe and agree, than it somehow strengthens the belief and the hypothesis.

    No!

    It doens’t work that way! Never did! ”

    Yes it does.

    When nobody apart from two people thought that cold fusion happened, it wasn’t sciemce fact.

    When a few people failed to reproduce the work, it wasn’t refuted yet.

    When scores of attempts had been tried and scores more looked at the data and scores more looked at the theory, and all those agreed it was bunkum, then it was a scientific fact that cold fusion wasn’t seen.

  77. #77 Wow
    December 12, 2012

    “It’s nonsense: “Those qualified to see” can see the forrest”

    How are you qualified to see?

  78. #78 Jonas N
    December 12, 2012

    Wow, I still chuckle at the time you listed two papers, claimed them to be it, and one of them was about monsoon patterns, and on top of that showing that those didn’t agree with GHG model simulation trends.

    Just amazing what nonsense you people can come up with, in order to avoid reality for som more time.

    I don’t remember who it was, but one of you was very hopeful that AR5 would make even stronger statements.

    Albeit nothing really is going you guys’ way. The hysteria about arctic ice and extreme wether, both are diversions from the fact that the temperature just isn’t doing what you guys need it to do … and for 1½ decades now, various post hoc amendments have been required to keep your hypthesis upright … but increasingly more wobbly and sick …

    You guys will proably be oamong the last to understand what happened.

  79. #79 Wow
    December 12, 2012

    “Wow, I still chuckle at the time you listed two papers, claimed them to be it,”

    Yes, false memories are all you seem to have.

    Drugs?

  80. #80 Wow
    December 12, 2012

    “showing that those didn’t agree with GHG model simulation trends.”

    Why are you going off at tangents?

    The request was for science supporting AR4’s claim. Not showing a demanded inerrancy of models.

  81. #81 Wow
    December 12, 2012

    So, you’re not qualified to see.

  82. #82 Jonas N
    December 12, 2012

    Wow … there is no science establishing those AR4 claim levels. None!

    And the absence of any such science does not need to be refuted.

    That you clowns here, who obviously aren’t qualified to handle anything responsibly, take these claims in blind faith is understandable. But that the two of you, on top of your impotence, claim that what you cannot see, have never found, arent qualified to read, that you two bozos assert that it’s in there, allthough nobody else, not even on your side, dares to make these specific claims is just hilarious.

    And you’ve had 1½ years to move a little little bit forward. But it seem’s you’d rather go the opposite way.

    It’s just marvelous.

    :-)

  83. #83 chek
    December 12, 2012

    And now for an encore Jonarse is reduced to hoping that focussing on ever shorter periods will validate his skewed ‘reasoning’ wrt global temperature. Yes, he’s just going down on the up escalator.

    No wonder Grant Foster cut him off at the knees within three posts last year. Good times, good times.

  84. #84 Wow
    December 12, 2012

    “Wow … there is no science establishing those AR4 claim levels. None! ”

    Wrong.

    Again.

  85. #85 Wow
    December 12, 2012

    “And the absence of any such science does not need to be refuted.”

    The existence of all those science papers need to be explained away though, if you’re going to claim “No science”.

    Never have done.

    Just denied it all exists.

  86. #86 Wow
    December 12, 2012

    And still nothing on how you happen to be “qualified to see”.

    Is this because that would require you to actually have a CV?

  87. #87 Wow
    December 12, 2012

    “that you two bozos assert that it’s in there”

    It’s here:

    AchutaRao, K.M., et al., 2006: Variability of ocean heat uptake: Reconciling observations and models. J. Geophys. Res., 111, C05019.

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  88. #88 chek
    December 12, 2012

    Well timed Wow.

    Now keep focussing on that ‘magic tree’ Jonarse – why, it’s not changing at all. But Birnam Wood is coming for you..

  89. #89 Jonas N
    December 12, 2012

    chek .. your desperate hope of the pudding is in the forrest and can only be seen by the qualified and selected … is such a joke.

    For once, I can say that your crank-buddy Jeff is far closer regarding this. He still want’s to portray it very differently, and make this lack of science (in 2007) somhow my fault in 2011/12, but at least he doesn’t blindly believe in the fairy in the forrest which only can be seen by the dedicated believers ..

    And even in your next attempt you get it wrong. The hiatius doesn’t valdiate anything for me. I am merely pointing out that the gap between projections (belief, and models with large built feedbacks) and observed reality increases steadily as the years go by, and very much faster diminish the likelihood of the hypothesis still being correct.

    Incidentally, it is a little like the reverse of those ‘attribution studies’ that after all exist. Those look for patterns that the models ‘preddict’ and hope that resemblence of pattern is attribution (they call it ‘fingerprinting’). But if you use the same models and techniques for more and more years with poorer and poorer agreement, the ‘attribution’ shrinks again.

    But hey, you know by now that those attributions in he AR4 were qualified expert guesses at best, and motivated by what deemed to be reasonable curve fits. You do know this, don’t you?

    It has (previously) been discussed at some length here.

    :-)

  90. #90 Jonas N
    December 12, 2012

    Look … Wow presents a heap of various metal parts, chek sees the forrest again .. and they both are certain that what the don’t see and cannot point out ..

    .. must be in there and have wonderfully, rumored properties and features ..

    .. but only to be seen by the tru believers who accepted the faith. And sworn never to speak about it in front of the faithless.

    Just marvelous!

  91. #91 Jonas N
    December 12, 2012

    Wow .. this doesn’t come lightly to me … but you seem to be a complete idiot .. your many postings are so incoherent and so unrelated, and so confused that it is very hard to even imagine that there is a (somewhat) rational human being behind that keybord .. Sorry, I cannot imagine anybody actually making as stupid comments as you have been consistently over years ..

    But I appreciate your presence here. Occasionally your buddies here, count you in as support for their cause, even as pasrt of the argument. I find this truly endearing when you gang up and in unison proclaim that you must be right …

  92. #92 chek
    December 12, 2012

    Too dumb to understand, and too vain to admit it.

    My gran had a saying – show me your friends, and I’ll show you who you are. You really ought to take time to revise all the posts – allegedly in supportof you – by Griselda, Olouse and PantieZ until you fully appreciatethe rarified vacuum between their collectivist ears. Only then will you recognise yourself and your pointless mission here, Jonarse.

  93. #93 Wow
    December 12, 2012

    “belief, and models with large built feedbacks”

    No, they aren’t using “Jonarse” science, they’re using REAL science.

    In real science of climate, there are no “large built feedbacks”. The feedbacks come out naturally from the science.

    65% of the warming of the earth by all greenhouse gasses are from H2O.

    CO2 manages a little under 25%.

    That’s a natural large feedback of about 2.5:1. The IPCC and the REAL climate science models get a feedback of somewhat under this (around 2:1).

    Reality, unfortunately for you, Joan, doesn’t agree with your phantasy depiction.

  94. #94 Wow
    December 12, 2012

    “your many postings are so incoherent and so unrelated”

    What? Like the one asking “How are you qualified to see”?

    I note that you’ve wriggled away and ignored it time and time again, much like Olap’s mindbender: “How would you go about finding out the temperature change?”.

    It comes very easily for me to say this: the idiot in the room is you.

  95. #95 Wow
    December 12, 2012

    “Look … Wow presents a heap of various metal parts”

    I’m sorry, your assertion makes no sense.

  96. #96 Wow
    December 12, 2012

    Well, Tim, is this thread of any use any more?

    Ban the silly fucker and close this thread.

  97. #97 chek
    December 12, 2012

    “but only to be seen by the tru believers who accepted the faith”.

    You seem to be driven by your religious programming to frame everything within that context Jonarse. Another young victim of the Catholic Church perhaps?

    At any rate, apart from your specious little self-invented tenet (that complex science must be accessible to morons to be valid) you haven’t had one single scientific point to make in your time here. Not a single one, apart from the occasional fruit loopy denier top-ten ones like your recent …er… ‘understanding’ of the direction global temperature is going in.

    Just so you understand that the perjorative ‘moron’ as applied to you has basis in factual observation.

  98. #98 Jonas N
    December 12, 2012

    Well chek, it certainly is a slow mission. But by now, essentially everybody knows that those AR4 claims where pulled out of a hat, not based on any presented science. Not even poor or questionable science. But none!

    Jeff has realized that (partly and grudgingly), many others have done so too. And even you are fully aware of that you have no clue at all (hence the stupid scrap parts trees car forrest analogies).

    But probably too immature to deal with his, albeit implicitly admitting that it is the ‘greater truth’ is not science but som more ‘holisitc understanding of the ways of Gaia’ contained not in published science, but hovering above the entirety of ‘climate science’. Or the fact that you need to change the ‘story’ and the reason for not being able to come up with something, and constantly trying to make it my fault somehow that the IPCC made claims it cannot substantiate, not even how it made them ..

    Deep down, you know too (you’re not that stupid) And it probably agonizes the lot of you, that’s why you are all so desperately trying to get around it, constructing reasons why it shouldn’t matter, that somebody else should have informed you (and it therefore shouldn’t be valid) and other contortions ..

    It’s quite fun to watch

    In reality, this thing is settled long ago. And no scientist on your side worth his salt even makes any such claims … it is only repeated by those who have no clue and have never questioned it. Ie not any real scientists ..

  99. #99 chek
    December 12, 2012

    What’s fun to watch Jonarse is your excruciating logic trying to justify your not having any answer whatsoever to any of those listed papers establishing the probability of human attribution at >90% (really >95%).

    You have no answer at all except blithe dismissal, which doesn’t work except on the level of moron that denialism seeks to cultivate. But that ain’t here.

  100. #100 Jonas N
    December 12, 2012

    chek, there have been a few commenters here who have had valid points, interesting view, who made reasonable challenges of what I said, and were capable of discussing topics where the answers are still not settled (ie climate science in genera).

    You definitely weren’t among them. Your ranting has been essentially brainless (with few interspersed speckles of reasonable fragments, quickly abandoned again).

    I can’t remember any time you contributed nything of substance. Your mouthing off against me has mostly been completely brainless, which is easily checked by just reading your claims. Utter nonsens almost all of the time. Another small minded ignorant activist keybord warrior. With no clout at all .. None!

    But probably representative for quite a few in those circles you frequent (but probably a bit dumber than average, since you display this so well)

    And wow is your buddy … Priceless! ;-)