June 2012 Open Thread

More thread.

Comments

  1. #1 Richard Simons
    June 21, 2012

    I see Olaus attempted something in addition to insults and links to loony blogs; a link to an actual research paper.

    Speaking of which: [link to report that emperor penguin populations are likely to decline in the coming century]

    On the other hand: [link to a paper that describes a single census but includes the sentence 'Understanding the causes of penguin decline will however require additional effort.']

    Olaus: the ‘on the other hand’ suggests you never actually read the paper. Try again, but this time, if you can, find research that actually supports your views and try a little harder to keep your insults in check.

  2. #2 David Duff
    This Septic Isle
    June 21, 2012

    Just a quick one to say thank you for those two days of global warming you arranged for me. I really enjoyed them but today it’s pissing down again.

    Oh, by the way, when does ‘weather’ become ‘climate’ exactly? Only this is the fourth wet cool summer in a row.

  3. #3 bill
    June 21, 2012

    You know that dreary Uncle at the family Christmas party who considers himself quite the ‘character’ when he antagonises everyone with the same alleged ‘jokes’ each year? The one no-one likes?

    Meet David Duff. Boring old fart.

  4. #4 Bernard J.
    June 21, 2012

    Just as one can lead a horse to water, but not be able to make him drink, so can one lead a denialist to knowledge, but not be able to make him learn.

    David Duff slakes his thirst for ideological satiation from the hypersaline font of pseudoscientific idiocy. And Olaus Petri baths in it.

    As one of my friend’s mother always used to say, what God hasn’t put there, man cannot improve upon…

  5. #5 chek
    June 21, 2012

    What’s that, Skippyduff?
    You spend most of your time rolling around and wallowing in the ordurous Anthony’s site and then wonder why you still have no grasp of even simple concepts like ‘weather’ and ‘climate’?
    Well Skippyduff, I’d recommend a two month bracing, cleansing shower over at Real Climate where you might train yourself to recognise actual science as opposed to anthonyquackery.
    That is, I *would* do that, but we all know how you hoppity skippity little fellas just love caking yourselves thickly in sh!t and stupidity the whole live-long day.

  6. #6 Olaus Petri
    June 21, 2012

    Richard S, please read the second paper yourself. It says:

    “We estimated the breeding population of emperor penguins at each colony during 2009 and provide a population estimate of ~238,000 breeding pairs (compared with the last previously published count of 135,000–175,000 pairs).”

    An increase.

    The decline you want to understand is stil all about “may” or “will”, hence “polarbeared” seems appropriate. So the sentence “understanding the causes of penguin decline will however require additional effort” should be “understanding the causes of a possible penguin decline will however require additional effort”, at least when it comes to emperor penguins.

  7. #7 P. Lewis
    Welsh Marches, ~220 m amsl
    June 21, 2012

    Emperor penguins? There is no confusion.

    The Jenouvrier et al. study

    focuses on a much-observed colony of emperor penguins in Terre Adélie, Antarctica

    whereas Fretwell et al.

    examined the whole continental coastline of Antarctica

    .

    This is 1 colony versus 46 colonies.

    This is a modelling exercise of future population on one well-documented colony versus pinning down more accurate estimates of current population continent-wide.

    Both studies acknowledge an undoubted decline in Emperor penguin numbers.

    Indeed, between about 1950 and 2000, the Jenouvrier et al. study site is known to have witnessed a 50% drop in Emperor penguin numbers.

  8. #8 Mack
    June 21, 2012

    I’m feeling a little bit bad about calling you a brainless fuckwitt Jeff and wish to apologise.

  9. #9 Jeff Harvey
    June 21, 2012

    As usual, Putrid is out of his depth. The IUCN has recently revised the status of the Emperor Penguin from being a ‘species of least concern’ to ‘near threatened’. And of course penguins are of course not the only example of biodiversity being deleteriously affected by climate change and many other anthropogenic factors. The number of endangered or threatened species on the IUCN lists is larger now than ever, and of course still rapidly growing. We are into the planet’s sixth extinction event and the first to be generated by one of its evolved inhabitants – us. Hardly a advertisement for evolutionary success – or one that shows how intelligence can be ‘self-extinguishing’, as E.O. Wilson recently wrote.

  10. #10 Wow
    June 21, 2012

    So go ahead and apologise, Mack. Nobody here is stopping you.

  11. #11 Bernard J.
    June 21, 2012

    I’m sure you are reffering [sic] to the hiatus of the warming trend (of 10-15 years) that has “showed up” despite the record levels of Co2? [sic]

    Someone is so ignorant of the nature of data, and of their statistics, that he doesn’t understand that given the current rate of warming (a touch under 2 degrees celcius per century) and given the existing random noise in the Earth’s climate signal (that is, the weather), the planet could warm consistently and continuously for a thousand years, and reach an average global temperature 20 degrees warmer than the present, and always demonstrate a statistically defined hiatus “of the warming trend (of 10-15 years)”.

    Olaus Petri is either a propagandist, or an idiot.

    And as I have noted in the past with similar juxtapositions, these conditions are not mutually exclusive.

  12. #12 Wow
    June 21, 2012

    “Olaus Petri is either a propagandist, or an idiot.”

    You give him too much credit. He’s both.

  13. #13 Bernard J.
    June 21, 2012

    Olaus Petri.

    If I was demonstrably wrong in calling you “either a propagandist, or an idiot” I would perhaps be “feeling a little bit bad” about it, as seems to be the affliction of some on this thread.

    As it stands though, I have no wish to apologise.

  14. #14 chek
    June 21, 2012

    As P Lewis clearly showed in his above response, scientists generally try to discover how the universe and its systems work. But to Petard and his ilk, they are either incompetent or unreconstructed Stalinists out to impose an agenda on freedom loving peoples. Either fantasy would fit with the example Petard singularly failed to show with his links above, or with his ongoing ‘attack the scientists’ vendetta.

    The rather more mundane reality that Petard himself is too uneducated in the relevant fields, too unintelligent , too politically motivated and lacks the necessary critical thinking skills to make head or tail of science in any rational way is an inconvenient truth best ignored for the sake of his puffed-up egotism.

    True to form, he will ignore being shown to be the idiot he is yet again, and as per the definition of insanity, will try the same tired means again and again and predictably, yet again. Like Duff, he’ll never learn.

  15. #15 Mack
    June 21, 2012

    You’re right WOW, Sorry Jeff.

  16. #16 Wow
    June 21, 2012

    I think any annoyance Jeff had was temporary, Mack.

    Now we’re calm, Nahle’s work is *presented* as if it’s scientific. But even if you do something as simple as dimensional analysis (something you should have been taught in High School physics), you find his work falls down.

    He has a citation list that LOOKS like the citation list you see at the end of a *real* physics paper, but you find that none (or only a small minority) actually cite any facts he states as if true (the reason why a citation is put in a paper. I.e. if they don’t calculate the specific heat capacity with temperature of CO2, then they’ll cite a paper that DOES).

    Just like a scam artist using official headed notepaper to make you believe just on casual inspection, that the invitation to a new conference is genuine, Nahle’s “papers” are constructed to *appear* like a science paper.

    But it’s no more a factual account than The Sunday Sport (The National Inquirer in the USA would be the equivalent) is a genuine news source.

    Judith’s crime is to pass them off as genuine because she has peddled the idea that she is competent and honest.

    That you fell for the scam is their fault. We’re trying to show you that you’ve been gulled.

    Which on an immediate emotional reaction level would make you angry: “you calling be stupid!!!”.

    PS my post was that you don’t have to put many words to an apology. “Sorry Jeff” was completely adequate. Abasement (or Notpology which requires more words to pull off) isn’t necessary. Just “Sorry”.

  17. #17 FrankD
    June 21, 2012

    >Only this is the fourth wet cool summer in a row.

    Shockingly, Duffer is wrong about that. There was above average rain in 2009, 2010 and 2011, but the average temperatures were 0.7 above average, 0.6 above average and 0.4 below average respectively. So that’s actually a whole one summer in a row that was below average.

    The ludicrousness of proclaiming 2012 wet and cool after the princely total of 21 days speaks for itself.

  18. #18 Mithrandir
    June 21, 2012

    @Jeff Harvey 10:01 AM:

    “We are into the planet’s sixth extinction event and the first to be generated by one of its evolved inhabitants – us.”

    Technically, I think “first” should go to the cyanobacteria and the oxygenating of the atmosphere. But we do come second.

  19. #19 Olaus Petri
    June 21, 2012

    Fellas, no need to please me with friedly words. The emperor penguins might take a nose dive due to climate change, or maybe not. And it might be an A involeved, or mabe not. The paper Richard S made such a fuzz about showed nothing of a “decline” besides a big If. If sure has incarserated your authoritarian minds. ;-)

    That’s why you guys can’t understand the meaning of words. Pay attention to the “may”:

    “An accurate assessment of the emperor penguin (Aptenodytes fosteri) population is urgently needed as recent research indicates that numbers may decrease significantly in coming decades [1], [2], [3]. These studies have highlighted the susceptibility of emperor penguins to changes in sea ice distribution.”

    Now pay attention to the worries of lesser ice, because that also is a concern in Lewis’ link (that ended up in an 12 year old paper, mind you). I hope he noticed that the authors blamed the decline of emperor penguins to the loss of ice:

    “We show that over the past 50 years, the population of emperor penguins (Aptenodytes forsteri) in Terre Adélie has declined by 50% because of a decrease in adult survival during the late 1970s. At this time there was a prolonged abnormally warm period with reduced sea-ice extent.”

    But since the ice extent in Antarctica is increasing, not decreasing (given the latest report), and the population of emperor penguins is improving, maybe we should worrie about an increase of penguins to unprecedented levels that, in the end, could harm the delicate ecology of the Antarctic region:

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/08/100816-global-warming-antarctica-sea-ice-paradox-science-environment/

    I’m just trying to follow your logic. ;-)

  20. #20 chek
    June 21, 2012

    I wonder if Duffer, Petard and the other sundry Watts’ crew might find Bill Chameides Congressional statement this week to be in terms simple enough for almost anyone to understand?

    And in case the clickable link doesn’t work…..
    http://republicans.energycommerce.house.gov/Media/file/Hearings/Energy/20120619/HHRG-112-IF03-WState-ChameidesW-20120619.pdf

  21. #21 David Duff
    This Septic Isle
    June 21, 2012

    So I wasn’t wrong, Frank, I was right, it has been four wet summers in a row. And as for your “average” temperatures, average of what, and who measured them? If your answer is the Met Office please excuse my giggles. And is it raw data or adjusted?

    And no-one has answered my question as to when weather becomes climate? Er, ‘when it suits us’ is not a very compelling answer.

  22. #22 Deep Climate
    deepclimate.org
    June 21, 2012

    Heartland’s James Taylor hits new low with defamatory false accusations

    The NOAA’s National Climate Data Center recently announced that the last 12 months were the warmest on record in the “contiguous” U.S., extending the 2011-12 hot streak that has now eclipsed the previous record in 1999-2000 by a half degree Fahrenheit. Apparently, that was just too much for the Heartland Institute’s James Taylor who used his regular column in Forbes magazine to accuse the NOAA of “doctoring real-world temperature data”. According to Taylor, the “alarmists” at NOAA “simply erase the actual readings and substitute their own desired readings in their place”.

    But it turns out that Taylor’s source is none other than hapless climate blogger Steven Goddard, who recently leveled incoherent and unsupported false accusations against James Hansen and NASA’s Gistemp record, as well as NOAA. Goddard also relies on the same reviled NOAA data in his botched attempt to buttress his case that NASA is “hiding” an 80 year cooling trend. Never mind that the U.S. “lower 48″ represents less than 2% of the Earth’s surface area in any event, or that past attempts to show U.S. cooling have been proven utterly wrong.

    If Forbes has a shred of integrity, this sorry episode will surely result in an abject retraction and apology to NOAA, along with the banishment of Heartland from the magazine’s pages. And it’s also high time reputable commentators in the mainstream media called out the irresponsible behaviour of Forbes and other right-wing media.

  23. #23 Chris O'Neill
    June 21, 2012

    “this is the fourth wet cool summer in a row”

    At least we all agree this was made up.

  24. #24 Richard Simons
    June 22, 2012

    Olaus claims that the paper on emperor penguins he cited documents an increase in their population. Not so. The authors used a completely new survey technique (including satellite imagery) that ‘found four new colonies and confirmed the location of three previously suspected sites’. They were attempting to establish a good, reliable baseline for future studies. Olaus: you need to read critically, understanding the experimental procedures and how they may affect the results.

    The paper Richard S made such a fuzz about

    In your imagination! It was you who brought it up and I merely pointed out that it does not show what you think it shows.

  25. #25 bill
    June 22, 2012

    Olaus, of curse, doesn’t ‘think’ anything.

    Much like the penguin in question, he simply regurgitates half-digested nuggets he’s found offshore.

    Notice it takes him a while to respond to points raised? That’s because he has to wait to see what it is he thinks…

  26. #26 Mack
    June 22, 2012

    We’re a funny old thing us humanz and we all have different perspectives. Perspective is essentially what moulds opinion and when it comes down to this AGW issue there can be only two opinions……whether or not man is changing the global climate.
    When I look at the arguement between Nasif Nahle and Neutrino over at Jennifer Marohasy’s from my perspective I can see a scientist with the cojones and maths capability to come out and challenge the establishment (what you guys represent). Would an American,Canadian,Uk, NZ, have done this?
    As for the climate scientists…. well…”Phyeeseks, we don’t need no steenkin’ physeeseks” :) :) :)

  27. #27 BPW
    June 22, 2012

    Really did want some input from people down that way. No takers? Too busy sparring with Duff and Olaus on the same ol’ tired topic?…

    Posted 6.7.12. Still there…

    This is a genuine and serious question. I am interested in real opinions. Since Tim often writes about shitty reporting in Oz, and I live in the US I have no perspective, I thought I would ask here.

    There were a bunch of articles written today, and others when it was released, about the Finkelstein Report…

    http://www.dbcde.gov.au/digital_economy/independent_media_inquiry

    …and its ramifications. Most of the stories I have read are from sites with which I am unfamiliar. I am trying to see if this is internet spin, or if this thing is really has the possibility of seeing the light of day. A journalist friend sent the original link to me which was this.

    http://afr.com/p/opinion/finkelstein_report_threatens_to_KuZ3KVqlRRBvxyUm4iEzbK

    I am very curious to the opinions on the report from those here who live there as I know there are many.

    Honest question. Does anyone support this thinking, even if you believe The Australian spouts deception in science–another thing all together and an opinion I don’t disagree with from what I have read–keeping in mind that this thing appears to pertain to all discussions, not just scientific issues?

    Seems crazy to me.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Estate

  28. #28 Mack
    June 22, 2012

    Oh sorry…forgot about an Australian scientist . ;)

  29. #29 Olaus Petri
    June 22, 2012

    Dear Richard S, the census in question didn’t come up with a decrease. That’s the main thing. If anything it showed an increase. I’m sure the results and the methods used can be criticized, no problem with that.

    Nothing to add regarding the inverted ice problem that now threatens to make the number of emperor penguins to sky rocket? ;-)

  30. #30 Wow
    June 22, 2012

    “Perspective is essentially what moulds opinion and when it comes down to this AGW issue there can be only two opinions……whether or not man is changing the global climate.”

    You misspelt “options”.

    There are two options. AGW is essentially correct, AGW is essentially false.

    That you can have an opinion doesn’t change reality.

    You may opine that you can fly.

    The ground when it meets you at terminal velocity will have a different “opinion”.

  31. #31 Karen
    June 22, 2012

    BPW this subject has been brought up here before, if it is spoken about in here you are labled a whacko conspiracy theorist nutter.

    The reason is that if this Finkelstein Report was put into law it would stop information and reporting about the lie’s being spewed forth by the AGW minions in here, these idiots in here want it !!!!

    Mind you they only want it because of all the information about the IPCC and AGW that is being continuously uncovered is hugely embarrassing to them, and they all are looking more foolish by the day.

    If you scroll back up the thread you will see the other side of the coin, Barnturd J.
    June 19, 3:36 pm grizzle gutsing about Gina Rinehart who holds different views to him/it, never mind the fact that Barnturd supports the ABC, our government run propaganda machine.

    I doubt very much that the current government in this country will remain in power, good riddance to bad rubbish I say, and I have mostly always voted for them.

    The future prime minister has recently repeated that he will rescind the carbon tax here, no doubt if the Finkelstein Report, or part there of, is passed in parliament and bought into law it will remain, but what do those in here care ?

    They are too thick to understand :)

  32. #32 bill
    June 22, 2012

    if Nasif Nahle really has the alleged ‘cojones and maths capability to come out and challenge the establishment’ let’s see him publish something somewhere other than some inconsequential anti-environmentalist blog like Jennifer Marohasy’s.

    Simple.

    He won’t try, of course, because it’s rather more fun to be feted as a genius by the rowdies of the far Right than to watch your work shot down in flames by the merely competent.

    And, oh, the irony; the friends of the Koch Brothers and Exxon cast themselves as being up against ‘the Establishment’! You could not make it up…

  33. #33 bill
    June 22, 2012

    ‘Karen’, true to your identity, never let knowledge of an issue stand in the way of being an ignorant Tea Party loudmouth, will you?

    After all, it’s your raison d’etre.

    BPW needs to learn how to present him of herself upon arriving if he wants people to have a reasoned discussion of some matter. Better yet, find a blog where people are actually debating the Finkelstein Report, rather than playing tone/concern troll here with it.

    They probably have more to say on the matter at Crooked Timber, Crikey, or even over at John Quiggin’s – even the ABC MediaWatch comment threads, come to think of it – I suggest you try. If you’re sincere you will.

    Rinehart G may well have a different opinion to Bernard J, but Bernard hasn’t just demanded three seats on the Fairfax Board. What kind of infantile fantasist do you have to be to not grasp that in our Corporatised Media Landscape some animals are waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more equal than others? Servile Pollyannaish BS about Murdoch and Rinehart just having ‘opinions that they’re entitled to like eveyone else’ makes my flesh crawl…

  34. #34 chek
    June 22, 2012

    Peterd brayed: “Nothing to add regarding the inverted ice problem that now threatens to make the number of emperor penguins to sky rocket?”

    Antarctic sea ice is seasonally variable. The whole polar bear problem (which another of your earlier snide remarks alluded to) in tha arctic is because the extent of the arctic cryosphere is now becoming seasonal, which it wasn’t before.

    I strongly suspect that neither you nor I know enough about penguin lifestyles to know how the spectacular break up up the ice shelves around the West Antarctic peninsula will impact the region’s ecology.

    But then I’m not the one pretending to after twenty seconds of googling to make a point informed mainly by ignorance.

  35. #35 Karen
    June 22, 2012

    bill, please explain your reasoning in labeling me a Tea Party loudmouth, your presumptions are as shoddy as your CO2 conjecture and your other ramblings.

    Then explain to me why you are sitting at a monitor and keyboard somewhere “constantly” monitoring dumbtoid ?

    Are you paid to do this ?

    Or…. are you just an impotent grumpy old fart with no friends ?

  36. #36 Olaus Petri
    June 22, 2012

    Chek, great of you to admit that the “mays” and “ifs” aren’t valid anymore because they were based on false premises.

    Good for you, bubble boy. Doesn’t it feel great when i enlightnen you? ;-)

  37. #37 Olaus Petri
    June 22, 2012

    Karen, the only thing deltoids are consistant with is their faiblesse for making stuff up, including political preferences of their opponents.

    They live in a world of conspiracies where the right wingers are all over the place, obstructing justice and promoting evil. Another common demonimator of the deltoids is of coures their hateful intolerance towards anything not like themselves.

  38. #38 Karen
    June 22, 2012

    Hi Olaus, yes there is some fantastic research material on this blog for a student of psychology.

  39. #39 bill
    June 22, 2012

    And what do you have to be, dear ‘Karen’, to devote your time to haunting the blogs of those you don’t agree with specifically in order to antagonise people and clog up any discussion with half-digested nuggets of chum? All the while deploying the Primary School Trump Card – ‘I know you are, but what am I?’

    Answer of course, is ‘Troll’.

    Watch out, if you keep at it too long you end up as Olaus. There’s no way back from there.

    (At least ‘faiblesse’ now gives us some clear idea what English is a second language to in this case…)

  40. #40 bill
    June 22, 2012

    A love match between Olaus and ‘Karen’. Ewwww.

  41. #41 Wow
    June 22, 2012

    Olaus and sunspot,
    sitting in a tree.
    K. I. S. S. I. N. G.

  42. #42 chek
    June 22, 2012

    Petard flaunts his blatant, easily discovered dishonesty as if it truly doesn’t bother him. I suppose that’s an almighty benefit in the circles he moves in away from here.

  43. #43 FrankD
    June 22, 2012

    BPW,

    The report you linked to is in another organ of the Murdoch stable. Bloviation about the end of free speech is entirely predictable. MRDA – “Well, they would say that, wouldn’t they?”

    Further to bill’s – http://blogs.crikey.com.au/purepoison/2012/03/16/finkelstein-scares/ has a nice summary of the brave defence of free speech put up by the mavericks opposing totalitarianism.

    I’m glad you raised this. I laughed so hard I peed myself a little when I read Karen’s: “I have mostly always voted for them…” Sure, she did. Until she became “concerned” with them…

  44. #44 joni
    June 22, 2012

    Just watched Dellingpole on Andrew Neil’s Political show on BBC and again he relied on the “statistical significant” meme, completely ignoring that in 2011 it became statistically significant. The guy made me scream at the TV.

  45. #45 Richard Simons
    June 22, 2012

    Olaus:

    the census in question didn’t come up with a decrease. That’s the main thing. If anything it showed an increase.

    A single data point can never show either an increase nor a decrease. I would have thought that would be obvious. The main point is either that you thought it could be quickly passed off as showing an increase, or that you were sufficiently unaware that you really thought it did show an increase.

    Nothing to add regarding the inverted [?] ice problem that now threatens to make the number of emperor penguins to sky rocket?

    I gather that in the near future (next 50 years), Antarctic ice is expected to advance in some areas (greater snowfall, don’t you know?) and retreat in others. Are you claiming that this won’t affect penguin numbers or are you claiming that biologists should not study them? If not, why not?

  46. #46 Mack
    June 22, 2012

    Hammer and Sickle head @ 9.10am
    “anti-environmentalist blog like Jennifer Marohasy’s”
    Go over there and tell that to Spangled Drongo.

  47. #47 Wow
    June 22, 2012

    Do you think he’d be at all interested? Why?

  48. #48 Bernard J.
    June 22, 2012

    If you scroll back up the thread you will see the other side of the coin, Barnturd J.
    June 19, 3:36 pm grizzle gutsing about Gina Rinehart who holds different views to him/it, never mind the fact that Barnturd supports the ABC, our government run propaganda machine.

    I support an Australian media where one of the largest companies is free from the complete control of all content by one very extreme and very rich individual, who is hell-bent on ensuring that the whole country’s political landscape is massaged to ensure that she becomes even more wealthy than the wealthiest woman on the planet.

    I make no apologies for this stance. You see, I actually believe in a non-propagandised democracy. If you have a different point of view, you’re past being right wing, and heading straight past Godwin territory to boot.

  49. #49 P. Lewis
    June 22, 2012

    I admit to a little chuckle when OP replied. It didn’t take him too long to reframe his lack of point.

    BTW guys: careful on the land ice/sea ice distinction.

  50. #50 chek
    June 22, 2012

    Don’t you realise Wow?

    All the right-wing neo-feudalist blogs are positively crawling with devoutly observant rabid environmentalists who only object to the infringement of billionaires’ rights to dump carbon into the atmosphere.

    Objecting to that is what defines us as communists – in dickheadland.

  51. #51 Mack
    June 22, 2012

    Mind you ,you’re going to have to find time to do this between the wanking sessions you have with that picture of Lenin.

  52. #52 Wow
    June 22, 2012

    Sorry, that made no sense, Mack.

    The only thing it seems to supply is that you’re obsessed with thinking about people masturbating.

  53. #53 Bernard J.
    June 22, 2012

    Olaus Petri said on 21 June, at 9:03 pm:

    Fellas, no need to please me with friedly words. The emperor penguins might take a nose dive due to climate change, or maybe not. And it might be an A involeved, or mabe not. The paper Richard S made such a fuzz about showed nothing of a “decline” besides a big If. If sure has incarserated your authoritarian minds. ;-)

    That’s why you guys can’t understand the meaning of words. Pay attention to the “may”:

    “An accurate assessment of the emperor penguin (Aptenodytes fosteri) population is urgently needed as recent research indicates that numbers may decrease significantly in coming decades [1], [2], [3]. These studies have highlighted the susceptibility of emperor penguins to changes in sea ice distribution.”

    and in doing so demonstrates that he does not understand the language of science.

    In this context, “may” doesn’t mean the “slight possibility” that Petri wants it to mean, it means “it’s very likely so, but because we’re scientists we don’t make absolute statements, and therefore we’re going to frame our assertion conservatively”.

    The simple facts are:

    1) in the long term the warming of the planet will melt ice, even in Antartica, and

    2) without ice penguins are stuffed.

    Neither statement is controvertial; the former is likely to occur, and the latter is inevitable if and whe the former eventuates.

    Olaus Petri’s spin is just so much misrepresenting denialist propaganda.

  54. #54 luminous beauty
    nova albion
    June 22, 2012

    Hi Olaus, yes there is some fantastic research material on this blog for a student of psychology.

    Not so fantastic. It’s always projection for Karen and Olaus. A symptom of narcissistic personality disorder. Quite ordinary pathology, really.

  55. #55 Betula
    June 22, 2012

    luminous beauty..

    “Not so fantastic. It’s always projection for Karen and Olaus. A symptom of narcissistic personality disorder.”

    Once again, this come from someone who goes by the name luminous beauty.

    “Narcissistic personality disorder symptoms may include: Fantasizing about….attractiveness”

    How rich.

    http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/narcissistic-personality-disorder/DS00652/DSECTION=symptoms

  56. #56 Marlowe Johnson
    June 22, 2012

    Tim,

    You may want to update your McKitrick files if Mosher has it right .

  57. #57 chek
    June 22, 2012

    … while Betty defends a fifth rate troll adopting the handle ‘Olaus Petri’. Too funny.

  58. #58 Betula
    June 22, 2012

    Chek..

    I didn’t realize I was defending anyone, but thanks for the assumption.

  59. #59 chek
    June 22, 2012

    So your actions are totally clueless then Betty. Happy to oblige in helping clarify your motivations for you.

    But permit me to ask – doesn’t it bother you to always be defending wanton idiocy? Or maybe that’s just your natural reflex.

  60. #60 ianam
    June 22, 2012

    Indeed, the ultimate application of a tu quoque fallacy, “You do it too!” is to later deny the “too” part.

  61. #61 bill
    June 23, 2012

    Hey ‘Mack’ – that’s inconsequential anti-environmentalist blog. So Wow’s right; I don’t care.

    What’s with the onanistic fixation? Creepy…

  62. #62 Mack
    June 23, 2012

    ” Inconsequential” Tell that to Jennifer Marohasy, to Tim Lambert , to in fact every blog owner . Tell it to the internet Billbaby, but most of all tell it to yourself.

  63. #63 Betula
    June 23, 2012

    Chek attempts to defend lubies blatant hypocrisy by claiming
    I was defending wanton idiocy by pointing out the hypocrisy

    Hypocrisy begets idiocy begets irony….’

  64. #64 Bernard J.
    June 23, 2012

    It seems that no form of humour is too subtle for Betula.

  65. #65 bill
    June 23, 2012

    Gawd, you folks could be out-thunk with one hemisphere tied behind the back!

    Tim L’s blog can hardly be ‘inconsequential’ in your own opinion, can it? – you’re here all the time!

    WUWT might safely be called many things, but I wouldn’t label it ‘inconsequential’, sadly.

    In this context, ‘inconsequential’ means of only some interest and only to people like yourself.

    Betty draws a remarkably long bow on the basis of – wait for it – an adopted moniker, whereas LB has reams of raving to go by in making an assessment of Olaus and KarenMcSpot’s clearly dysfunctional personalities.

  66. #66 Bernard J.
    June 23, 2012

    Bill at 12:39 am 23 June.

    It’s appropriate though, given that most anything that KarenMackSunspot comes up with usually follows an Er

  67. #67 Mack
    June 23, 2012

    You’re blinded by ideology Billbaby. I think it’s your other picture of Karl Marks.

  68. #68 bill
    June 23, 2012

    Hey, just caught up on that Marlowe Johnson link re McK – what’s the population density of the Pacific Ocean? What happens if you take the population of the entire US, average it across its area, and then claim that’s the population density – and indicative temp-driving affluence – of, say, Cottonwood Falls, Kansas? Kake Alaska? the Mojave Desert?

    Oh, and 56 million people in Antarctica? Fun and games if correct!…

  69. #69 bill
    June 23, 2012

    Oh, disappearing posts! Anyway, read Marlowe Johnson’s McK link – it’s rather entertaining. What is the population of Antactica? Or the population-density of Kake, Alaska?

    Oh, and Mack – rest assured, I’ll cry myself to sleep tonight at the thought of your disdain…

  70. #70 Bernard J.
    June 23, 2012

    I think it’s your other picture of Karl Marks.

    So, who’s that guy when he’s at home?

    And yes, Mosher’s pants-ed Ol’ Ross good and proper – which should get KarenMackSunspot’s blood boiling…

    Sometimes I think that there might even be some hope for Steve…

  71. #71 GSW
    June 23, 2012

    Just came across a link to an article on WUWT.

    [Delusion is a big problem with the green crowd](http://www.theprovince.com/technology/Delusion+problem+with+green+crowd/6823927/story.html)

    (hope the formatting hasn’t changed, but no preview, so who knows). It’s about the RIO+20 conference and written by someone with a background in pyschology. Like many others, he looks on with some bemusement at this “believer” pantomime.

    Anyone here care to champion the event?

  72. #72 John
    June 23, 2012

    Delusion? Like insisting that the world’s scientific bodies are fraudulently fabrcating scientific evidence to form a one world government at the behest of the UN?

  73. #73 John
    June 23, 2012

    Good news everyone, Christopher Monckton has been ousted from the UKIP for being a “loose cannon” and “17th century pamphleteer”.

    The UKIP are the least credible party in England and even they want nothing to do with Monckton. Oh, snap.

  74. #74 karen
    June 23, 2012

    poor little johny, so confused he is.

    The word ousted does not appear on the entire page so I don’t how even a down’s syndrome could assume that.

    This is interesting, as always :)

    http://joannenova.com.au/2012/06/rio-the-political-freeloaders-hide-but-is-it-their-failure-or-their-plans-they-dont-want-you-to-see/

  75. #75 karen
    June 23, 2012

    barnturd J. 5:41 am

    I can’t speak for Mack or Sunspot but I would say that I am very disappointed that you, a Phd Fartologist, can’t enable your own olfactory system to sniff out and bring to the fore the stench that is disguised as climate science, maybe you need to clean your teeth and gargle with some Harpic, the verbal diarrhea that you spew forth is mere flatus.

  76. #76 John
    June 23, 2012

    Read in between the lines, Karenmackspot. He’s quite deliebrately been cut out of the party. You have no problem arguing that a cold day is proof global warming is a UN scam, so I don’t know how you fail to make this connection.

  77. #77 Wow
    June 23, 2012

    Wow, isn’t sunspot so mature? So eloquent. So full of crap.

  78. #78 karen
    June 23, 2012

    little johny try to read the words dear, not the spaces, lol

    maybe you can read pictures ?
    http://www.ukip.org/page/key-party-roles

  79. #79 Wow
    June 23, 2012

    Mack, just because you’re a credulous incompetent moron, it doesn’t make you a bad person.

    Your personality does that.

  80. #80 John
    June 23, 2012

    “lol”

  81. #81 Bernard J.
    June 23, 2012

    I am very disappointed that you, a Phd Fartologist, can’t enable your own olfactory system to sniff out and bring to the fore the stench that is disguised as climate science

    Don’t fret, KarenMackSunspot. I can smell the pong of nonsense “disguised as climate science” quite well, and the stink coming from you would make the Great Sphinx gag.

  82. #82 Wow
    June 23, 2012

    sunspot, you don’t read pictures. You read words.

  83. #83 Bernard J.
    June 23, 2012

    In case it (likely) needs to be explained to you KarenMackSunspot, the Great Sphinx is a pile of rocks with no nose.

    And no thought processes…

  84. #84 karen
    June 23, 2012

    oh deary me (blush) the big barnturd j has just wafted in. Where are those gumoots ?
    I have them on now jj, shall we start with this

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-22/rainfall-south-australia-flooding/4086100?section=sa

    your gods and visionary’s told us this was never to be seen again !!

    Flatulate forth an explaination please !!

  85. #85 Wow
    June 23, 2012

    Ok, so you’re agreeing that you’re a moron, sunspot, since the only person telling us “this was never supposed to be seen again” is you.

    Why are you bringing evidence that proves you wrong in the same post as you say that?

  86. #86 karen
    June 23, 2012

    and johny seeing that you have a reading disability you can have some fun and watch this

    http://media.brisbanetimes.com.au/selections/the-snow-is-coming-in-sideways-3392012.html

    hahaha, I know it’s not really snow, it’s frozen CO2

  87. #87 Wow
    June 23, 2012

    Hmm. Seems sunspot thinks that snow in winter is a miracle.

  88. #88 karen
    June 23, 2012

    snow in summer is a miracle

    Victoria’s white Christmas December 25, 2006 http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/victorias-white-christmas/2006/12/25/1166895228377.html

    Snow falls across NSW and Victoria Dec 20 2010 http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/8186165/snow-falls-across-nsw-and-victoria

    Flaky forecasts as state readies for summer snow http://www.theage.com.au/environment/weather/flaky-forecasts-as-state-readies-for-summer-snow-20120109-1pr76.html January 9, 2012

    lol, wait till you here barnterds excuse

  89. #89 Wow
    June 23, 2012

    Thanks for confirming that you think snow in summer is a miracle too.

    Hint: Everest.

  90. #90 bill
    June 23, 2012

    Hey, Geniuses – if precipitation has increased with the intensified hydrological cycle due to AGW, but it’s, um, winter, or you’re at a high altitude, what form might that precipitation be likely to take? (Hint, like yourselves, it’s flaky.)

    Yep, Monckton joining the Birthers in earnest really finished him, at least with everyone who isn’t crazy enough to be a troll on Deltoid…

  91. #91 Bernard J.
    June 23, 2012

    The word ousted does not appear on the entire page so I don’t how even a down’s syndrome could assume that.

    Except that Monckton is out..

    Semantics are the last refuge of the dissembler.

  92. #92 lord_sidcup
    June 23, 2012

    In other developments on the Monckton front, the potty Lord seems to be shifting his business plan from AGW denial into Obama birther claims. More notoriety and money to be made on that front in a US election year it seems. A ‘member of the House of Lords’ who isn’t a member of the House of Lords claiming the President isn’t the President should backfire nicely.

  93. #93 lord_sidcup
    June 23, 2012

    Karen 8.29 am

    I’m guessing you aren’t too familiar with UK politics. Being leader of UKIP in Scotland is about as minor a political role as it is possible to have. UKIP polled 0.28% of first preference votes in the 2012 Scottish council elections. Call it a banishment rather than an ousting if you prefer.

  94. #94 Mack
    June 23, 2012

    This bill genius is trying to tell us that global-warming is causing more snow. or maybe even that snow is not equal to cold.
    Aaaahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
    what a fuckwit.

  95. #95 Bernard J.
    June 23, 2012

    This bill genius is trying to tell us that global-warming is causing more snow. or maybe even that snow is not equal to cold.
    Aaaahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
    what a fuckwit.

    Spoken like a true – and clueless – projectionist.

    1) Increased temperatures increase evaporation.

    2) Atmospheric humidity is moved around the planet by atmospheric circulation, including from the evaporating tropical regions to the poles.

    3) Atmospheric humidity can precipitate out of the gaseous phase when temperatures cool – as they do at the poles.

    4) When more-warm-and-humid-than-usual air moves from the poles to the more-warm-than-usual-but-still-colder-than-naught-degrees-celcius, there will be more snow than usual.

    If you have a solid grasp of the physics that contradicts this scenario, KarenMackSunspot, please share it with the world.

  96. #96 Bernard J.
    June 23, 2012

    Argh.

    When more-warm-and-humid-than-usual air moves to the more-warm-than-usual-but-still-colder-than-naught-degrees-celcius poles, there will be more snow than usual.

    Please, bring back preview.

  97. #97 Chris O'Neill
    June 23, 2012

    “snow in summer is a miracle”

    Perhaps “Karen” is from one of those redneck states in the north of Australia where they’ve never heard of cold weather in summer. Heck, even I’ve been skiing at Mount Buller in April. Bushwalkers in Victoria have complained about white things falling on them in February for a long time, and then there’s Tasmania’s weather.

  98. #98 karen
    June 23, 2012

    “lol, wait till you here barnterds excuse”

    bumbling barnturd lol

    talk about pulling an old turd outta the thunderbox, hehe

  99. #99 chek
    June 23, 2012

    Karenmackspottroll exhibit 1: “This bill genius is trying to tell us that global-warming is causing more snow. or maybe even that snow is not equal to cold.”

    Karenmackspottroll exhibit 2: “talk about pulling an old turd outta the thunderbox”

    Is everything uttered by Karenmackspottroll unwitting (unwitted?) projection?

  100. #100 Mack
    June 23, 2012

    @ Bernerd 11.50am.
    Your “scenerio” is not physics but unsubstantiated theoretical AGW constructed climatology. Your 1,2,3,4 fabrication is in reality is just circumlocutious crap .
    Very much like everything else you say.

Current ye@r *