July 2012 Open Thread

Phew, looks the carbon tax has not returned Australia to the Stone Age.

Comments

  1. #1 Lionel A
    July 24, 2012

    For one thing, you end up paying higher per-unit prices for many goods and services because you never have enough spare cash to stump up for a larger bundle and have to buy the smallest offering each time.

    Absolutely right Lotharsson, and to add to that over here in the UK some of the poor can only access electricity through a premium rate meter. If the meter runs out in the middle of cooking a meal – tough. Either risk food poisoning or go without – and that includes, or in many cases absolutely means, the children.

    Then their is access to their own money. As many Post Offices have been closed that route for cheap cash access is denied as the nearest ‘hole in the wall’ may be an unaffordable bus ride away. Even then if it isn’t one of the poor friendly ones there will be a transaction charge for collecting their own money. The Sheriff of Nottingham would blush. But then he is now occupying Mitt’s shoes I guess.

    On his closing companies and making fast bucks, wasn’t Bachmann taking tax dollars whilst working people bellow the minimum wage in her companies of interest. Ah! Here we are , not the source I originally discovered this gem on but it is close.

    Two more pernicious moves will be the ‘cashless society’ and phasing out of cheques. Plastic or nought is not a good idea for the poor who would spend a fortune they have not got on trying to sort out bank caused account errors and as for their being subject to fraud – good look with fixing that.

    Now as for that ‘cheaper bundle’ the rash of ‘three for the price of two’ offers or ‘buy one get one free’ is an environmental disaster in the making – so much waste. Besides carrying all those offers any distance could be a problem without decent transport.

    Once every town and city over here had its collection of streets where you could find just about anything you wanted. In the old ‘ironmongers’ or ‘hardware store’ you could buy exactly how many of whatever it was you wanted, often with such as nails, screws, by the LB. Now you have to travel out of town, if you can, and buy a pack of 100 out of which you only want three. They call this progress. Not in my book.

    Batty Bet has just opened the floodgates, that is if it doesn’t change the subject again having been black knighted on this one now.

  2. #2 Lionel A
    July 24, 2012

    Ah! Here we are , not the source I originally discovered this gem on but it is close.

    Argh! Dreaded link fail again here we are, I hope:

    Taxpayers Should Stop Subsidizing Wal-Mart

    Drop a quote mark at your peril, link looks good but is dead!

  3. #3 Lotharsson
    July 24, 2012

    And speaking of those attempting to defend the low tax rates of the rich by cherry-picking some facts…

  4. #4 Wow
    July 24, 2012

    “As many Post Offices have been closed that route for cheap cash access is denied as the nearest ‘hole in the wall’ may be an unaffordable bus ride away”

    And banks want to charge for having a current account if your salary is less than £500 a month into the account (each month).

    Whilst the government insist that everyone must have a bank account so that they can “crack down on money laundering funding terrorism”.

  5. #5 Betula
    July 24, 2012

    From the look of the comments, I think we can conclude that the common denominators amongst the alarmists are:
    1. Capitalism sucks
    2. Climate change is a direct result of the rich
    3. The poor are the ones affected by climate change
    4. The rich need to pay the poor
    5. Climate change has nothing to do with redistributing wealth.

  6. #6 Betula
    July 24, 2012

    “Know anyone who actually made their money purely on their own?”

    How about…no, strike that..

    http://didntbuildthat.com/tagged/Shepard-Fairey

  7. #7 Betula
    July 24, 2012
  8. #8 Betula
    July 24, 2012

    “Whilst the government insist that everyone must have a bank account so that they can “crack down on money laundering funding terrorism”.

    C’mon alarmists, all together now….More Government!

  9. #9 Lionel A
    July 24, 2012

    Come on Batty with that Snfoil hat on shouldn’t you be writing ‘Gubmint’ or something?

  10. #10 luminous beauty
    July 24, 2012

    “If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

    “The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don’t do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.

    “So we say to ourselves, ever since the founding of this country, you know what, there are some things we do better together. That’s how we funded the GI Bill. That’s how we created the middle class. That’s how we built the Golden Gate Bridge or the Hoover Dam. That’s how we invented the Internet. That’s how we sent a man to the moon. We rise or fall together as one nation and as one people, and that’s the reason I’m running for President — because I still believe in that idea. You’re not on your own, we’re in this together.”

    —Barack Obama

    Cherry-picking selective quotations out of context, misrepresenting them and lying about it; a feature not a bug of the Republican Party.

    “You Olympians, however, know you didn’t get here solely on your own power. For most of you, loving parents, sisters or brothers encouraged your hopes, coaches guided, communities built venues in order to organize competitions. All Olympians stand on the shoulders of those who lifted them. We’ve already cheered the Olympians, let’s also cheer the parents, coaches, and communities. All right!”

    —Mitt Romney

    Romney knows he’s lying. Betty is too stupid to know it.

  11. #11 Wow
    July 24, 2012

    Nope, got it wrong again, betty.

    Some government.

    Not none, like you whinge about.

    People like you are why wall street had to produce a laughable piece trying to explsin that government didn’t do anything to create the internet: because idiots like you insist as a central facet of your faith, that government can’t do anything, only private companies can do anything good.

    Like a four year old’s fairy story. The ‘bad guy’ has absolutely nogood in them. Completely one-dimensional characters.

    Thing is, most kids grow out of needing such simple stories about the world.

    You haven’t.

  12. #12 luminous beauty
    July 24, 2012

    Betty,

    1. Capitalism sucks (as it is currently organized, yes. That doesn’t mean eliminating, privately owned capital property, entrepreneurship or allowing market dynamics to function within reasonable ethical parameters.)
    2. Climate change is a direct result of the rich (of wealth creation as it is currently pursued through the means of burning fossil fuel and rape of the natural environment, yes.)
    3. The poor are the ones affected by climate change (negatively affected, yes. The wealthy, as the system is currently constructed, will always make a profit off the suffering of others.)
    4. The rich need to pay the poor (a guaranteed living wage for meaningful work, yes.)
    5. Climate change has nothing to do with redistributing wealth. (No, but an equitable distribution of wealth has a great deal to do with both mitigation and adaption concerning climate change.)

    Not more government … better government.

  13. #13 Lionel A
    July 24, 2012

    Batty,

    Here you go, look at how oil companies cream of billions in tax dollars whilst paying their CEOs huge sums along with the wealthy, and powerful share holders and see what they spend huge sums on. Hint, fooling idiots, or mendacious twerps, like you.

    You want to be seen as aiding and abetting these crimes against the US and larger humanity? Your choice.

  14. #14 Mack
    July 25, 2012

    Lionel et al,
    The moment any of you here railing against oil companies roll up to the petrol station and pour that precious liquid into your tank immediately makes you a mouthing hypocrite.

  15. #15 ianam
    July 25, 2012

    @Mack

    Complete and utter logic fail, you wretched dishonest garbage. Only an extremely stupid person would think that is so, and only a very dishonest one would use that argument. And even if we all truly were hypocrites … that wouldn’t change the fact that AGW is occurring.

  16. #16 ianam
    July 25, 2012

    The world according to…

    The thing about mentally deranged right wing garbage like Betula is that no matter how hyperbolic or stupid their contrived caricatures are, they will act just as if they were entirely factual.

  17. #17 ianam
    July 25, 2012

    I think we can conclude

    We can always conclude that you are stupid, wrong, and dishonest.

  18. #18 Bernard J.
    July 25, 2012

    Luminous Beauty said on 24 July, at 7:44 pm:

    1. Capitalism sucks (as it is currently organized, yes. That doesn’t mean eliminating, privately owned capital property, entrepreneurship or allowing market dynamics to function within reasonable ethical parameters.)

    LB is absolutely correct about the problems of the organisation of contemporary Western capitalism… and specifically about its inequitable and unsustainable aspect.

    At its most fundamental, the issue is that capitalism by its very nature is based on the systemic expectation of growth in wealth/profit, and as Australia’s very successful and rational businessman Dick Smith noted, this is not a sustainable paradigm over the long term, nor is it one that business or government wants to discuss.
    .
    Whole books have been written on why this is so, but implicit in all considerations is the fact that at some point in an economy’s expansion* the resource limits of the system put the brakes on further growth, after which the wheels begin to fall off the wagon. This senescence is one of the factors driving the present state of many Western economies: in Europe it has been exacerbated in countries where government/business corruption has tried to pile more wealth on the already-rich side of town, and in the USA it will be hastened by the nationally-characterising propensity (amongst others) to tax the poor disproportionately compared to the rich.

    In most of the big Asian ‘tiger’ countries the current economies started from very low bases, so the growth momentum of the last few decades is still there, although even in these tiger economies the signs of impending senescence are clear to anyone with the vision to see. And then there is Australia: a First World economy that has the blessing of having comparatively huge primary (largely quarry) resource industries compared to its overall GDP, and which are being sucked up by the Asian tiger momentum, which has in turn helped to buffer Australia from the senescence that will inevitably visit a growth model of economy.

    However, as many have noted, societies from the wide-ranging and sophisticated Roman Empire through to the relatively simple community of Easter Island all eventually outgrow their resources. It’s the inevitable fate of a growth economy and, as noted above, captialism as we practise it is all about perpetual growth…

    There is only one, inevitable outcome.

    If Betula or any of his compadrés beg to differ, all they need to do is to explain how the laws of thermodynamics contradicts what I’ve said above.

    [*Nota bene, in an expanding economy it's still trivially simple for a rich minority to become richer, and for a poor majority to become poorer, which rather invalidates the necessity for a growth-model economy in the first place.]

  19. #19 Lionel A
    July 25, 2012

    Lionel et al,
    The moment any of you here railing against oil companies roll up to the petrol station and pour that precious liquid into your tank immediately makes you a mouthing hypocrite.

    I don’t drive, and even if I did over here in the UK we pay a price more commensurate with its true cost. Perhaps you should try that some time. Besides as a UK citizen I would probably drive something more fuel efficient than the still average US gas guzzler, drive only when necessary and take up cleaner technologies as they become available.

    But then your small mind would not be able to comprehend all that now would it.

    Another dead fish lands at our feet.

  20. #20 Lionel A
    July 25, 2012

    And WRT that Greenland Ice cap things suddenly look a whole lot more dangerous.

    Question for you deniers.

    If that surface melt proceeds at a pace out-striping any isostatic rebound (probable) why would melt continue more rapidly? Hint what happens to the ablation zone?

    This may already be a factor.

    Another feature of summer ice melt is

    …Iken et. al. found that the summer increase in sub-glacial water pressure actually raised the glacier by as much as 0.6m and partially decoupled the ice from the bed[rock].

    For context search out ‘Surface Melt-Induced Acceleration of Greenland Ice-Sheet Flow’, Zwally et. al. (2002) Science, or in ‘The Warming Papers’ edited by David Archer & Ray Pierrehumbert.

  21. #21 John
    July 25, 2012

    Betula, thank you for showing us that your denial of science is based on your political ideology, not on facts, evidence or logic.

    It’s telling that nutters like Betula find it easier convincing themselves of grand conspiracies involving the UN (who can’t force nobody to do nuthin’) than accepting the evidence.

    What’s so ball-bouncingly amusing about this effort is Betula believes he’s exposed the real purpose of the global warming scam – to raise the third world out of poverty!

    Shock!

    What next? Eradicating AIDS?

    Nope! That’s there too! This conspiracy goes all the way to the middle!

    What a sad, hateful little man Betula is.

  22. #22 Wow
    July 25, 2012

    “the issue is that capitalism by its very nature is based on the systemic expectation of growth in wealth/profit”

    I would say the problem is far more endemic.

    In capitalism, money is power and the single allowed source of it. Therefore if you’re rich, you’re not wealthy, you’re powerful.

    The difference being that with wealth you buy things. And that is how trickle-down economics is supposed to happen.

    Except in a capitalist system, that money is power, therefore if you spend it, you lose power. And it becomes a losers game: someone richer than you can impose their will on you. So therefore it’s only your wealth relative to those near you that counts, not what you can spend it on.

    And that’s why the wealthy hoards.

    Because if someone loses (e.g. spends) money and you don’t, you have gained power compared to them.

    As long as you keep the wealth, you can express power again and again, it’s an inexhaustible resource.

  23. #23 Betula
    July 25, 2012

    Lumy…

    You need Obama to tell you how bridges and roads are built? How fire Departments work? Are you smarter now for it?
    Gee, I never would have thought that people worked together to build things, this changes my whole attitude about success. If I work 6 days a week and pay my bills, I should also pay the bills of my lazy neighbor who sits on his porch drinking beer while he lives on welfare….because I didn’t become successful from my hard work, I became successful because there’s a road to get me to work.

    My neighbor will drink to that.

    But wait, don’t my taxes pay for the roads? Don’t my taxes pay for the Fire department? Don’t my taxes pay for the police deparment?

    The money line from Obama’s little lecture is this…
    “If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen.”

    Who is the somebody else? Me and people like me, who work and pay taxes? Who takes the risk on starting a business? Who takes the risk on hiring and buying equiptment?

    Where does the “somebody else made that happen” logic stop? I guess a lot of people with businesses need to thank James Madison for supervising the Louisiana Purchase, yet James Madison never would have “made it happen” if his mother didn’t wipe his ass as a child…

    Thank you Mrs. Madison for my success, I owe you everything.

    Are you enlightened Lumy?

  24. #24 Betula
    July 25, 2012

    “Nope, got it wrong again, betty. Some government. Not none, like you whinge about.”

    Wow, you have a selective reading disability. Show me where I ever said No Government. I was in the Marine Corps for crying out loud…you putz.

    Now, show me where I said No Government.

    Waiting…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Wi8Fv0AJA4

    Waiting…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj0ChLVTpaA

  25. #25 Betula
    July 25, 2012
  26. #26 Betula
    July 25, 2012

    John..

    “It’s telling that nutters like Betula find it easier convincing themselves of grand conspiracies involving the UN (who can’t force nobody to do nuthin’) than accepting the evidence”

    Um, John, The IPCC is the U.N.

    Carry on…

  27. #27 bill
    July 25, 2012

    Well, Batty, you’re certainly afflicted with the hysteria characteristic of your nation… yep, you are John Galt.

  28. #28 Lotharsson
    July 25, 2012

    The money line from Obama’s little lecture is this…
    “If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen.”

    Er, no, it’s not.

    The context makes it clear when he says “you didn’t build that” he’s talking about roads, bridges and all sorts of other things that are used by business.

    But you already know this as it has been explained to you before.

    And still you repeat the lie.

  29. #29 Bernard J.
    July 25, 2012

    Um, John, The IPCC is the U.N.

    Um, no.

    The IPCC was set up by two UN organisations, but it is not the UN. It’s science is conducted and compiled by professional scientists, completely independent of the IPCC.

    Further, each participating country can input as it sees fit to ‘dumbing-down’ the text of the IPCC reports, in the face of the import of the science, separate from any UN consensus, and according to the conservatism of their own national policies. Hardly a UN-sponsored process, that…

    The only conspiracy here is that individual nations can (and do) scuttle the effectiveness of response to global warming by inculcating their own agendas into the way that climate science is reported via the IPCC.

  30. #30 luminous beauty
    July 25, 2012

    Betty,

    “I should also pay the bills of my lazy neighbor who sits on his porch drinking beer while he lives on welfare…”

    This neighbor you fantasize. He only exists as a projection of the dissatisfaction produced by clinging to the illusion of a distinct and separate self.

    Letting go of that illusion is the beginning of enlightenment.

    “We’re all in this together” is the money quote.

  31. #31 Lotharsson
    July 25, 2012

    …because I didn’t become successful from my hard work, I became successful because there’s a road to get me to work…

    There you go again – lying that your detractors are engaging in all-or-nothing thinking.

    Or maybe you’re just not smart enough to grok the difference between all-or-nothing thinking and a discussion about the appropriate point on a continuum.

    Or more likely, you can’t make your case without blatant dishonesty.

  32. #32 Lotharsson
    July 25, 2012

    Meanwhile, speaking of the Romney campaign to dishonestly quote-mine Obama’s riff about roads, bridges and businesses and get useful idiots to repeat it as gospel (see above)…seems like their poster boy business was built with the aid of a good chunk of government assistance.

    Reminds me of the Tea Party protesters complaining about other people on government welfare…whilst accessing Social Security payments, benefiting from Medicare programs and riding on government-supplied disability scooters.

  33. #33 Lionel A
    July 25, 2012

    Reminds me of the Tea Party protesters complaining about other people on government welfare…whilst accessing Social Security payments, benefiting from Medicare programs and riding on government-supplied disability scooters

    Not to mention their idolised Ayn Rand. Now anybody who names a child , male or female, after her like with Rand Paul deserves to be taken with a big pinch of salt..

  34. #34 Lionel A
    July 25, 2012

    Wow, you have a selective reading disability. Show me where I ever said No Government. I was in the Marine Corps for crying out loud…you putz.

    OK Batty, look where some of your tax dollars are going .

    You served to enable this, now who is the putz (whatever that is)?

  35. #35 Wow
    July 25, 2012

    “Show me where I ever said No Government.”

    Show us where the UN have said it’s all a scam, betty.

  36. #36 Wow
    July 25, 2012

    “I was in the Marine Corps for crying out loud”

    Rather explains why the last war you won was when you were part of the UK…

  37. #37 luminous beauty
    July 25, 2012

    Shorter Betty;

    Taxes to protect international business interests by keeping the world’s poor subservient … GOOD!

    Taxes to lead the world’s poor out of poverty … BAD!

  38. #38 Lionel A
    July 25, 2012

    Here is an idea Batty, dig out a copy of Noam Chomski’s How the World Works as you don’t seem to appreciate much of the history in which you took part.

  39. #39 Betula
    July 26, 2012

    If Wow were honest….

    Betula, I realize you were talking about less government, but I assumed you meant no government because I’m angry and I let my ideologies get in the way of reality. Don’t take it personally, I do this all the time…

    For example, when someone is talking about illegal immigration, i take it that they hate all immigrants, and when someone is talking about muslim extremists, I take it that they hate all Muslims. I assume a lot of things and assign labels to the people i’m making assumtions about because.it makes me feel smart. In other words, I need to mask reality, it helps me get through the day.

    Sure, I assume a lot about the future, climate change and funding…. and I label people that point out that I am just assuming, but never let it be said, when it comes to my assumptions, that I’m not honest about admitting they are just assumptions and not based on facts. This letter is proof of that.

    Respectfully,

    Wow.

    And now, back to reality….

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO_YErq1M-M

  40. #40 Betula
    July 26, 2012

    Lionel A.

    How the world works…

    Noam Chomsky: Obama is a man of absolutely no principles. He has two constituencies. One of them is the popular constituency, the people who voted for him. For them he is doing essentially nothing. He has another constituency: the people who financed his campaign, the financial institutions. And they are getting rewarded.

    http://europeancourier.org/test/2011/03/13/noam-chomsky-on-obamas-presidency/

  41. #41 bill
    July 26, 2012

    Gee, Batty, what does Chomsky have to say about the Tea Party, Romney and the COP, contemporary Capitalism, or the global role of your beloved US Military?

    That Obama is not a man of the calibre of FDR – or even Johnson or Carter – is obvious. That Chomsky’s opinion of his cynical opportunism should somehow ‘prove’ your claim that he’s a quasi-Socialist anti-Capitalist ideologue is, on the other hand, merely hilarious.

    You. Are. An. Idiot.

  42. #42 bill
    July 26, 2012

    Bah – GOP.

  43. #43 Lotharsson
    July 26, 2012

    If Wow were honest….

    Now I see the genius behind Betula’s repeated dishonest re-interpretation of other people’s words – it’s all been an elaborate setup for this piece of comedy gold in the Pot. Kettle. Black. tradition!

    Well played, sir/madam, well played!

  44. #44 Lotharsson
    July 26, 2012

    Speaking about dishonest misrepresentations of Obama’s words, here’s a story about someone else doing the very same thing. (And read the last substantive paragraph and see if you can figure out which person it means when it points out that they accessed the publicly financed benefits that helped them get where they are today.)

  45. #45 Lotharsson
    July 26, 2012

    If you’re organising a campaign based on false interpretations of Obama’s words about how businesses generally benefit from publicly financed resources, it’s not a particularly good look to showcase examples of businesses that benefited from taxpayer-funded expenditure.

    Unless, of course, you don’t care if you’re lying and are seeking to recruit people to uncritically repeat the lies.

    (And this doesn’t even start to analyse the benefits of publicly financed roads and bridges and other infrastructure to those businesses – you know, what Obama was actually talking about.)

  46. #46 bill
    July 26, 2012

    From Loth’s link –

    That he said it on Fox and Friends, the morning show that parents let their toddlers watch when they find Fanboy and Chum Chum too intellectually challenging, is just a bonus.

    Gold!

    I also thoroughly recommend Pierce’s Idiot America, particularly to Batty. (‘America’s always been a great place to be crazy. It just used to be harder to make a living that way.’)

  47. #47 ianam
    July 26, 2012

    But wait, don’t my taxes pay for the roads? Don’t my taxes pay for the Fire department? Don’t my taxes pay for the police deparment?

    No, our taxes pay for those things, moron … which was exactly Obama’s point.

  48. #48 ianam
    July 26, 2012

    So Betula quotes Chomsky complaining that Obama is as pro-capitalism as Betula is? As I’ve said before, there is no bottom to Betula’s stupidity.

  49. #49 zoot
    July 26, 2012

    I think we need a companion to the Gish Gallop:
    The Betula Boogie?

  50. #50 Wow
    July 26, 2012

    Betty, you’ve never BEEN to reality. Heck, you haben’t even got directions.

  51. #51 Wow
    July 26, 2012

    What are you waiting for, betty?

  52. #52 ianam
    July 26, 2012

    Today I learned a new word for the fools: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisegesis

  53. #53 bill
    July 26, 2012

    Zoot – the Batty Boop?

  54. #54 Wow
    July 26, 2012

    Well, it was a point you seem to have missed for decades, Betty.

  55. #55 Betula
    July 26, 2012

    “No, our taxes pay for those things, moron … which was exactly Obama’s point”

    That’s a fascinating point by Obama, our taxes pay for things. Pure genius.
    Of course, the exception to this would be anyone with a business, their taxes don’t pay for these things…isn’t that right ianumb?

  56. #57 Wow
    July 26, 2012

    You’re a sad, deluded little toy, aren’t you, Buzz, I mean, Betty.

  57. #58 Lotharsson
    July 26, 2012

    Of course, the exception to this would be anyone with a business, their taxes don’t pay for these things…

    Er, no.

    And no-one argued otherwise. Except maybe the phantoms in your head.

    Interesting that you can’t seem to dispatch anything but strawmen.

  58. #59 joni
    July 26, 2012

    Betty – the international man of sophistry

  59. #60 Wow
    July 26, 2012

    ‘course Betty’s “go-to” answer for people who demonstrate what his ravings mean that demonstrate how illogical and nutty they are will be to demand “Where did I say these exact words”, where the words

    a) aren’t ones he’s accused of saying
    b) are ones that have the same meaning as the ones he says

    But, like all good little deniers, will never bother to show where some exact words were said. For him, meanings that he’s extracted are fine.

    But not for the “lesser people” who don’t believe in his nutcase theories.

  60. #61 Marco
    July 26, 2012

    Funny, people here are talking about Betula and his conspiracy nuttery, and out he goes proving that by referring us to a website run by Alex Jones…

  61. #62 Bernard J.
    July 26, 2012

    I think that Betula has Frightophthora taxmannii.

  62. #63 Wow
    July 26, 2012

    he can’t be frightened, Bernard, he’s been in the Marines! Honest! He wouldn’t tell porkies!

    How come these nutcases were all in the marines?

    And I can’t help wondering if they “left” because they didn’t want to work for a black man…

  63. #64 Lionel A
    July 26, 2012

    Ah yes. Alex Jones, wing–nutt or agent provacateur which I wonder. Of course we all know about that other wing-nutt that Jones talked up James Delingpole on Alex Jones Tv 1/5: After Climategate, Pachaurigate, Glaciergate, Amazongate with more here .

    Batty just has not understood the depth of the garbage coming from such sources.

  64. #65 Lionel A
    July 26, 2012

    Jones in flood, ‘…Delingpole…has a blog in The Daily Telegraph [not any more it seems] which he uses to disprove man made climate change…’

    Oh! The stupid, it hurts, ’nuff said.

  65. #66 Betula
    July 26, 2012

    Of course, the exception to this would be anyone with a business, their taxes don’t pay for these things…

    Slotherson….”Er, no. And no-one argued otherwise. Except maybe the phantoms in your head”

    Well, apparently they don’t pay enough taxes for these things…. these things that they benefit from and Elizabeth Warren states “the rest of us paid for”.

    “She follows with a list of the things that society did to facilitate this accomplishment: the factory owner moved his goods on roads the rest of us paid for, he hires workers the rest of us paid to educate, he was safe because of the police and firefighters the rest of us paid for, and he didn’t have to worry about marauding bands seizing his factory because of the work that the rest of us did.”

    “By her reasoning, a successful factory owner owes more to society because he, apparently, derives more benefit from the contract”

    “However, even if we were to embrace without reservation the notion of the social contract and that taxes are part of the contract, then Warren still failed to make an argument to support higher taxes for the factory owner. In her example, the factory owner received the benefit of roads and police and stable government. However, what she failed to note or to realize is that everyone in the society enjoys these benefits. They were not put into place to benefit only people who build factories. Each and every one of us enjoys the protection of the police and our military and a (crumbling) road system”.

    “Warren also failed to point out that the factory, once built, will provide significant revenue to the community that it inhabits. It will pay property taxes; it will pay for electricity (a big revenue-generator); it will pay the salaries of a large number of workers, from whose salaries will be deducted more taxes. These employees will also spend the money that they earn, and this will be reflected in higher sales tax revenues and greater prosperity for the merchants of the town. These people will also be able to purchase nicer homes, which will be reflected in higher property tax revenues.”

    “In short, not only is the factory owner a contributor to the society, but he is actually a super-contributor — and, if we were truly to follow the social contract theory, he would be entitled to significantly more consideration from the government.”

    Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/09/elizabeth_warren_a_harsh_mistress.html#ixzz21k2tY3zL

  66. #67 Lotharsson
    July 26, 2012

    Well, apparently they don’t pay enough taxes for these things…. these things that they benefit from and Elizabeth Warren states “the rest of us paid for”.

    Indeed. See the marked difference in your earlier caricature, and this more accurate interpretation?

  67. #68 Lotharsson
    July 26, 2012

    However, what she failed to note or to realize is that everyone in the society enjoys these benefits.

    Perhaps she failed to do so, because it is (a) already understood by everyone with a few brain cells to rub together, and (b) not especially relevant to the argument. (The same applies to the “she failed to point out the revenue” line.)

    The argument is a response to Republican claims that (a) the rich should be taxed less, preferably a lot less, and (b) doing so is good for everyone who is not rich. And that argument response is based on the observation that those who are advantaged much more by these benefits should generally pay much more, but instead generally manage to pay a lot less. Heck, “user pays” used to be a favourite conservative meme – but generally only when it was wheeled out to suggest people of low to moderate incomes pay much more for services. Apparently it does not apply to those people with large incomes (much like subsidies for highly profitable oil companies are just dandy, but are entirely immoral for other sectors of society…)

    The “less tax, especially for the rich” zealots are remarkable for attempting to avoid the debate on the distribution of the total tax take across various sectors of US society, and that distribution’s fairly remarkable change over the last few decades. They will pull all sorts of rhetorical tricks to achieve this. They will pretend that the only tax that counts is federal income tax. They will assert claims that have been roundly refuted by evidence (e.g. “trickle-down economics”, the implication that poor/rich people all deserve to be poor/rich, the claim that lower taxes on the rich will lead the economy to boom and the total tax take to increase, and the like). And they will cover their ears and shout “La, la, la, la” rather than have to face the fact that most rich people pay a lower total percentage of income in taxes than the poor people they employ. The shouting just gets louder when one points out the ways that the very rich have bought influence in order to skew the system even more in their favour.

    In the end they are fairly sophisticated apologists serving the rich by filling the media with justifications for the rich being rich, up to and including faux moral arguments that rely on bullshit premises. It is astonishing that a lot of non-rich people have bought their bullshit…

  68. #69 Lionel A
    July 26, 2012

    Here is an idea Batty, dig out a copy of Noam Chomski’s How the World Works as you don’t seem to appreciate much of the history in which you took part.

    While you are at it have a look at Greg Palast’s Vultures’ Picnic: In Pursuit of Petroleum Pigs, Power Pirates, and High-Finance Carnivores

    Now don’t come back until you have broadened your horizons. Serving in uniform, as I have too, can restrict your vision and stunt your cognitive growth unless you grow out of all that bull afterwards.

  69. #70 Betula
    July 26, 2012

    Sloth…

    “the fact that most rich people pay a lower total percentage of income in taxes than the poor people they employ”

    “faux moral arguments that rely on bullshit premises”

    Seems you have been buying some bullshit slothy..

    http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/09/fact-check-the-richtheir-secretaries-and-taxes/

  70. #71 Betula
    July 26, 2012

    CONTEST:

    How many assumptions can you find in the following statement regarding former Marines…

    “And I can’t help wondering if they “left” because they didn’t want to work for a black man”…

    Winner gets to assume what the prize is.

  71. #72 Wow
    July 26, 2012

    None.

    It was wondering about those who PRETEND to be ex-Marines.

    Because you never find an internet troll rightwingnut who was merely part of the normal standing army, or navy or airforce. Always Marines.

  72. #73 Wow
    July 26, 2012

    And for it to have been assumptions about marines, you would have to say you assume all marines have resigned from their employment.

  73. #74 ianam
    July 26, 2012

    That’s a fascinating point by Obama, our taxes pay for things. Pure genius.
    Of course, the exception to this would be anyone with a business, their taxes don’t pay for these things…isn’t that right

    Again, no bottom to Betula’s stupidity. He cannot comprehend the difference between “I paid for this” and “we paid for this”, and thinks that pointing it out means that I’m saying “you aren’t among those that paid for this”.

  74. #75 Betula
    July 26, 2012

    “It was wondering about those who PRETEND to be ex-Marines”

    That’s one. So far Wow is in the lead.

  75. #76 ianam
    July 26, 2012

    “No, our taxes pay for those things, moron … which was exactly Obama’s point”

    That’s a fascinating point by Obama, our taxes pay for things. Pure genius.

    Pure stupidity on your part, Betula. The point is the part of it you omitted: “No”. As in, “No, you didn’t pay for these things, we (including you) paid for these things”. The point was that no one becomes successful alone. But you knew that, which makes it clear to everyone what a cowardly piece of shit you are because you don’t dare attempt any sort of honest argument, knowing you will lose.

  76. #77 Betula
    July 26, 2012

    “And for it to have been assumptions about marines, you would have to say you assume all marines have resigned from their employment.”

    Thats three for Wow. Wow, I gave you two assumptions for this one since you were the one who used the words “these” and “they” at 1:51 pm. This means you are assuming about your own assumption, so it’s worth two. Very clever.

  77. #78 Betula
    July 26, 2012

    That’s a fascinating point by Obama, our taxes pay for things. Pure genius

    “Pure stupidity on your part, Betula. The point is the part of it you omitted: “No”. As in, “No, you didn’t pay for these things, we (including you) paid for these things”.”

    I notice you ignored the “our” part of the comment which is beyond stupidity on your part.

    But I have to be honest, I think each individual in the United
    States believed they were the only ones paying taxes for these things until Obama set them straight. He is truly a wonder.

  78. #79 Betula
    July 26, 2012

    Obama…
    “If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive.”

    An unbelievable American system we have that allows people to thrive? Hey, I have an idea, let’s change it!

  79. #80 luminous beauty
    July 26, 2012

    I have an idea. Let’s change it back to when the highest tax rate was 75% and 35% of the workforce was represented by collective bargaining agreements. That’s when the American people were really thriving. That’s when an expanding middle class was the wonder of the world.

    Now, thanks to 30 years of trickle-down Reaganomics and the evisceration of Labor, the US is rapidly turning to shit.

  80. #81 Wow
    July 26, 2012

    Anyway, if betty was in the KP corps of the marines, his pay wastaxpayer pay. Anything he paid for was taxpayer paid.

    He didn’t pay a damn thing!

  81. #82 chek
    July 26, 2012

    Betty said:“An unbelievable American system we have that allows people to thrive? Hey, I have an idea, let’s change it!” – which is presumably exactly what Betty’s referenced intellectual big guns (American Wanker and Alex Jones) are trying to do.
    Tell me, my fierce, hedge-trimming marine: what’s your story on the moon landings? Another NASA hoax like AGW?

  82. #83 Betula
    July 27, 2012

    “Hey, I have an idea, let’s change it!” – “which is presumably exactly what Betty’s referenced intellectual big guns (American Wanker and Alex Jones) are trying to do”.

    Hope and Change Nelson, Hope and Change….

  83. #84 Betula
    July 27, 2012

    Wow…

    Seriously, have you ever been right about anything? Is every waking thought a guess?

  84. #85 Betula
    July 27, 2012

    “the US is rapidly turning to shit.’

    On this we agree. How’s that Hopey Changey working out?

  85. #86 bill
    July 27, 2012

    From the outside the bizarre and characteristic zealotry so many of you indulge in regarding your ever-more-grotesquely-unequal and dysfunctional society is equal parts mystifying, disturbing, and pathetic.

    To make a religion of your State, while simultaneously undermining its validity in all arenas except making endless War, funneling largesse to the already rich, and punishing the poor is truly a recipe for collapse in the medium to long term.

    I used to be genuinely puzzled as to why Empires collapse, but observing you lot since Reagan has been an object lesson.

    Rule one: don’t start believing your own BS…

  86. #87 DarylD
    William Lamb's Town Down Under
    July 27, 2012

    Good News Week!

    Ignorant denialati clowns, who have finally crossed the “Rubicon Demarcation Bridge” This bridge, is the one that defines the actual limits of “Free Speech” and moved directly into the land of denial, lies, deformation, libel and slander.

    Professor Michael Mann sends out legal notice of a pending Deformation action, against the National Review, for knowingly and maliciously publishing lies, in the State of New York.

    link : http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/07/22/1112727/-Climatologist-Michael-Mann-sics-the-boys-in-the-shark-tank-on-National-Review

    It goes without saying, a wise man, would review the State of New Yorks Defamation Laws, including the US Supreme Court rulings as well too on the subject, before making ignorant comments, all driven by one’s head in the sand of denial and cognitive dissonance on the subject!

    In other news, Professor Michael Mann’s Canadian Defamation case against Dr Tim Ball, which has been off the “Internet Radar” since March, 2011, has produced some surprising new results.

    link: http://climatecrocks.com/2012/07/25/mike-mann-defamation-update-the-unbearable-weirdness-of-denial/

    Ouch, a truly sad case of a very few simple fools being fleeced of their money by charlatans!

    Who’d have thought the denialati, all of whom, like KBMSOD, deeply mired in their own pool of self created horse hockey, just can’t help themselves, in heaping the same old, same old, amongst themselves.

    “Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities. Truth isn’t.” – Mark Twain

  87. #88 Lotharsson
    July 27, 2012

    Seems you have been buying some bullshit slothy..

    And there you have an absolutely beautiful example of what I said earlier – the “taxes always need to be lower, especially for the rich” zealots pretend that only federal taxes count.

    (Mind you, the very article Betula links to points out the “carried interest” exception which allows a bunch of rich people to pay much lower rates than most on a large amount of income.)

    An unbelievable American system we have that allows people to thrive?

    And yet earlier you posted a link claiming more than 100 million people in the US are below the poverty line?

    Make your mind up!

    (Feel free to go look up the research on how it is getting harder in the US for people to move from the lower class to the middle class, and how it’s become a lot easier to move the other way. A system that allows some to thrive is not necessarily a system that gives everyone that opportunity. I’m still betting you haven’t read Nickel and Dimed.)

    And what luminous beauty and bill said.

  88. #89 zoot
    July 27, 2012

    Jeez Betty, you’re getting creamed.
    Must be time to change the subject.

  89. #90 Wow
    July 27, 2012

    Betty, unlike Bush, the dems wpn’t abuse the rights of the presidency, therefore reps (the party of NO!) have fillibustered every hope of change because they dare not let a black guy have any success in care the rest of them get ideas above their station.

  90. #91 ianam
    July 27, 2012

    I notice you ignored the “our” part of the comment which is beyond stupidity on your part.

    The “our” was MY word, MY point. There is NO BOTTOM to your stupidity.

  91. #92 ianam
    July 27, 2012

    But I have to be honest

    Followed immediately by a falsehood, of course.

    I think each individual in the United
    States believed they were the only ones paying taxes for these things until Obama set them straight.

    It’s not what you assholes believe, it’s what you argue. Pointing out that it’s a societal effort is a rebuttal, a concept you’re too stupid to understand. The rebuttal only works if it is accepted, which is why you assholes repeatedly deny the obvious.

    But why do I even bother? Betula is slime, garbage, a genuinely evil person, and not even a banal evil like Eichmann who was “just doing his job”. A truly sickening diseased organism that I should just let stew in its own juices.

  92. #93 Wow
    July 27, 2012

    Juices which have no bottom…

    Unlike Betty who’s a complete arse.

  93. #94 Lotharsson
    July 27, 2012

    And here’s a story of another deeply dishonest quote-mine of Obama by the Republicans re: tax rates and the like.

  94. #95 Lotharsson
    July 27, 2012

    … the dems wpn’t abuse the rights of the presidency…

    I wouldn’t go that far. Obama has expanded presidential power in apparent conflict with the rule of law just about as aggressively as the W administration did, courtesy of (e.g.) still further support for warrantless wiretapping, aggressive campaigns against whistleblowers, etc., and by arrogating the right to play judge, jury and executioner by declaring certain people terrorists through secret deliberations and dispatching drones to kill them.

    Ironically the furore in the US (to the extent that there was one, and very few Democrats have been part of it) has been about this being done to US citizens without due process – no-one much complained about it being done to foreigners.

  95. #96 Lotharsson
    July 27, 2012

    … therefore reps (the party of NO!) have fillibustered every hope of change because they dare not let a black guy have any success in care the rest of them get ideas above their station.

    This, however, I think is spot on.

    Republicans run a scam worthy of the Mafiosi. When they’re not in the majority they do their utmost to obstruct the practice of actual governance. (They’ve successfully destroyed the collegial norms that meant that “filibusters” used to be reserved for a small number of key issues and actual filibustering was required, to the point where “filibustering” is treated as (a) a formality that doesn’t require actual filibustering, and (b) happens way way way more frequently than any time in the past.)

    After doing this they go out to their constituencies and – without any apparent embarassment – argue either of both that (a) Democrats are useless in government, and (b) government itself is inefficient and ineffective so there should be “less” of it.

    It’s astonishing how many people fall for this simple little con. But fall they do. And how passionately!

  96. #97 Wow
    July 27, 2012

    “Obama has expanded presidential power in apparent conflict with the rule of law just about as aggressively as the W administration did”

    Not really.

    Only where progressive policy was the only casualty. I.e. the pushing through of more draconian copyright laws. Ones, basically, where he would not get called out for exercising executive privilege either by the media or the rightwing.

    Just look at how the Dems freely vilify any progressive in their ranks or media, and how s*t scared they are off the rightwingnuts in the media (to the extent of firing a highly competent politician because of a faked up edited slam at them for being “racist”).

  97. #98 Betula
    July 27, 2012

    Once again Sloth….
    You stated: “the fact that most rich people pay a lower total percentage of income in taxes than the poor people they employ”

    Just because you buy bullshit by the truckload, doesn’t mean we have to buy it from you…

    The link states:
    “For the most part, the wealthy pay a significantly higher percentage of their income in taxes than middle-income workers.”

    Your response:

    “Mind you, the very article Betula links to points out the “carried interest” exception which allows a bunch of rich people to pay much lower rates than most on a large amount of income.)”

    So here’s the question Sloth…is it “most” rich people or a “bunch” of rich people? And how many in a bunch?

    You were wrong and can’t admit it….yet it’s all right in front of everyone to see, barring the ideological blinders handed out by Deltoid.

    And who’s handing out the blinders? Why it’s no other than Zoot….”Jeez Betty, you’re getting creamed.Must be time to change the subject”

    What’s the matter zoot…running low on blinders?

  98. #99 Wow
    July 27, 2012

    “For the most part, the wealthy pay a significantly higher percentage of their income in taxes than middle-income workers.”

    This is absolutely incorrect.

    Because taxes include income tax, capital gains tax, sales tax and many, many more.

    But your link only counts one small segment as taxes.

    You’re wrong and you dare not admit it.

  99. #100 Lionel A
    July 27, 2012

    Here you go Batty start your mind expanding here:

    What Uncle Sam Really Wants

    The Prosperous Few and the Restless Many

    I”ll leave you to find the texts under the part headings of ‘Secrets, Lies and Democracy’ and ‘The Common Good’.

    Will you feel so sure of your cognitive framework after exposure to the acid of reality? I doubt it, if you have any humanity that is.

    Is the average American prospering? Do those at the top care? Discover the truth if you dare about the Third World America, we have similar in UK and doubtless Gina Rinehart will help provide for Australia in due course. Ironic that Rinehart has ‘Hope’ as a second Christian name.

    And for an Australian’s perspective then John Pilger is worth reading. In other Pilger works you will discover more about the US led, and Australian assisted, atrocities in East Timor.

    I feel anger that Diego Garcia was enabled with British connivance, a disgrace, but then the US had an economic gun to our heads.