August 2012 Open Thread

Still here. It seems the carbon tax has not destroyed the Australian economy. Phew!


  1. #1 bill
    August 11, 2012

    The ‘it was only the Ice Storm’ farrago is clearly a pre-emptive strategy to enable dismissal of the imminent new record sea-ice low.

    The Wattsian hardcore and devout acolytes of the Sticky Bishop may well manage to whip themselves into a fervour over this, but it really only serves to both restrict and define the event horizon of Epistemic Closure.

    As their bubble seals-off forever we see a pitiable gaggle of strident and self-deluding numpties lost beyond the reach of mere evidence and reason on the inside, with the rest of us stuck looking on in wonder that they were ever listened to in the first place and wondering what the hell to do about the mess they’ve left behind…

  2. #2 FrankD
    August 11, 2012

    I haven’t predicted a minimum this year in any of the sea ice extent polls that various blogs are running, but I did predict (on day two of the storm, at Neven’s Arctic Sea Ice Blog) that the “reality reluctant” would use this storm as a get-out-of-jail-free card to handwave away a new record low area. Could have knocked me down with a feather when the obviously-insane (thanks for the correction) Karen made such a predictable ploy. Watts and the Bishop beaters do the same? Colour me unsurprised…

    In fact a new record was virtually guaranteed long before the storm coalesced, only needing 2012’s relatively uneventful but brutally warm conditions to continue – exactly the sort of in situ melting that Karens video link showed. Different groups measure ice at different concentrations, and while the storm caused some of those datasets to nosedive, for others (like the University of Illinois’ Cryosphere Today), the trajectory barely changed at all.

    2007 set a record in part because of persistant wind patterns that pushed a lot of ice out of the Arctic to melt in the North Atlantic. We saw no exceptional conditions this year, yet we are almost certain to smash 2007, such is the shitty state of what is left of the Arctic ice cap.

  3. #3 Sean
    August 11, 2012

    98 percent of the world was cool? Beyond the warmth in the USA, NOAA also said that this is the the 11th warmest year globally so far at 0.52 degrees Celsius above the 20th century average. Not sure how being above normal translates into cool.
    I’ll post this link again.

  4. #4 Lotharsson
    August 11, 2012

    Not sure how being above normal translates into cool.

    Your link also reports the NOAA says it was (globally) the 4th warmest June since records began in 1880.

    Muller seems to be trying to deceive on that point – or incompetent. Or perhaps Muller was using a post-normal relativistic definition of “cool” approved by denialists, that being cool = “not quite as warm as that place that’s really really hot right now”. (Which tends to suggest “trying to deceive”…)

  5. #5 Bernard J.
    August 11, 2012

    Muller, the BisHillers, the WWWTians, et al are all evidence in their own ways that one can lead the herd of asses to water, but one cannot make them drink, no matter how withered is their collective grasps on reason.

  6. #6 Lionel A
    August 11, 2012

    As ever a valuable contribution from Tamino on Arctic sea ice.

    Take home point near the end:

    At this point, I think my prediction that this year’s minimum would be close to, but wouldn’t break, the record will turn out wrong. I expect we’ll set a new record low for sea ice extent, area, and volume.

    If you believe that we can do this to the earth and not have consequences, you’re a fool.

    So there we have it KrakenMackDuffSpot fools all as are the cheerleaders at WUWT and Cardinal Puff. On which Tamino rounds out his article with this:

    I can’t help but wonder how Anthony Watts and other fake skeptics will spin this. I can’t wait to see his next “Sea Ice Update.” I wonder what WUWT reader “Smokey” will have to say.

    Indeed. interesting times ahead but I doubt any of us will be cheering as Watts sinks in his own hubris for we all will have more important concerns on our minds. The roller coaster of climate and weather is about to get very hairy indeed for ‘we ain’t seen nothing yet’.

  7. #7 GeoffBeacon
    York, England
    August 11, 2012

    Two questions …..


    Does anyone know how to get the rest of this into print? Listening and typing is hard for me.

    “But I do believe it’s important to keep some distance between the science and policy advice if you like because while certain types of damaging weather events may be getting more likely as a result of global warming other types of extreme weather events may be becoming less likely so it’s important not to jump to the conclusion that just because something’s changing it’s automatically bad.”

    Myles Allen talking to Richard Black on the BBC’s Science in Action:

    I have had it on good authority that Myles is someone the UK Government take seriously.

    Myles on sea ice found here:


    Posted this on Neven’s excellent today. No problem with instant response. So I thought I’d try a couple more. Tamino allowed it. Revkin’s dot earth blog seemed to take it but I can’t find it. Joe Romm’s Climate Progress hasn’t let it through moderation but later one’s have been passed.

    Any explanations?

  8. #8 Bernard J.
    August 11, 2012

    I seem to recall that at 4:17 pm on 13 June I asked USKMS to give his best estimates for the 2012 minimum Arctic ice parameters, and that FrankD pre-empted even my questioning.

    I also have this nagging doubt that anything resembling a sensible reply was provided, but perhaps now the Scandinavian Troll Collective, USKMS, Betulant, Duff, and sundry other denialati might like to consider offering an eleventh hour estimate, supported with testable reasoning …

  9. #9 GeoffBeacon
    York, England
    August 11, 2012

    My posting (see above) is on the Dot Earth Blog but I find moderation fails for me on Joe Romms Cimate Progress quite often.

  10. #10 mk
    August 11, 2012

    Sierra Club Statement on Paul Ryan

    Washington, DC – Today, Republican Presidential candidate Mitt Romney announced that Wisconsin Congressman Paul Ryan would be his running mate in the 2012 election.

    Sierra Club Executive Director Michael Brune Released the Following Statement in Response:

    “There is a reason big polluters have given Paul Ryan hundreds of thousands of dollars and why the Koch Brothers are one of his top donors – he’s tried to turn their wildest fantasies into law. From rejecting the reality of climate disruption to attacking good-paying clean energy jobs to trying to gut the EPA’s ability to protect our air, our water, and the health of our families, Ryan operates out of the dirty energy playbook.

    Big polluters have been financing Mitt Romney’s campaign, calling the shots on his energy policy, and even serving as his debate surrogates. Of course, Mitt Romney could not add a Big Oil or Big Coal executive to his ticket, but by picking Paul Ryan, he’s done the next closest thing.”

  11. #11 Lotharsson
    August 12, 2012

    Charles Pierce on Paul Ryan’s nomination as VP candidate (although he tends to focus on political issues other than climate science and Big Carbon).

    Ryan has featured regularly on Pierce’s blog – it’s worth reading some of the older articles (e.g. see the list at the end of the link above, starting with the first one).

  12. #12 Karen
    August 12, 2012

    This puts a damper on the dodgy global warming theory,

    The warming was supposed to be the greatest at the pole”S” wasn’t it ?

    The CO2 greenhouse theory seems to be far from proven, a reoccurrence of melting in the Arctic is normal and the ice cores moraines ect tell you that.

    History repeats 🙂

  13. #13 bill
    August 12, 2012


    suddenly it does seem cooler…

  14. #14 bill
    August 12, 2012

    And, Karen, who do you imagine you’re impressing or convincing? Yourself, even? No amount of shouting ‘squirrel’ can save you from what’s going on in the arctic.

  15. #15 bill
    August 12, 2012

    Further, for the grown-ups.

  16. #16 Bernard J.
    August 12, 2012

    Sunspot in his guise as Karen is still burning rubber on the line where he started years ago. Some people just can’t learn.

    Heads up Spotty, even the Koch-sponsored denialist Muller concedes that the concensus science is bang on the money. Warming is happening, and it’s us. Saying otherwise only serves to cement your reputation for utter stupidity.

    You’re eating the world’s dust.

  17. #17 Lotharsson
    August 12, 2012

    The warming was supposed to be the greatest at the pole”S” wasn’t it ?

    Apart from the fact that the north and south poles are expected to respond quite differently to increased CO2 forcing initially, at least for a number of decades, for reasons far more complex than you appear to be capable of grasping…

    …your graph does not even show temperature, therefore it can’t demonstrate whether it is or is not warming as expected.

    Epic Evidence Fail.

  18. #18 Robert Murphy
    August 12, 2012

    Not only does the graph The Spot posted not show temps, it only shows SH sea ice. Overall, Antarctica is losing ice. Both poles are. Own goal, Spotty.

  19. #19 Lionel A
    August 12, 2012


    …your graph does not even show temperature, therefore it can’t demonstrate whether it is or is not warming as expected.

    Kraken is intellectually or morally bankrupt, probably both as the first can lead to the second.

    When spouting about, or ignoring temperatures, it (Kraken and ilk) has no clue about the concepts of heat capacity and latent heat.

    Here Kraken, given that a one degree rise in temperature of one gram of pure water at ISA conditions, is the result of the input of one calory of heat energy how much heat energy, in calories, is required to change one gram of ice at freezing point into water?

    Similarly how much heat energy is required to turn one gram of pure water into one gram of vapour?

    A man walks 5 miles due South, turns and walks 5 miles due East, turns again and walks 5 miles due North arriving back at the place where he started. What colour was the bear that he spied on the way?

  20. #20 Lionel A
    August 12, 2012

    Lotharsson on Ryan

    Brad Johnson has a piece about this enemy of the people here

  21. #21 Chris O'Neill
    August 12, 2012

    “The warming was supposed to be the greatest at the pole”S” wasn’t it ?”

    Er, no.

  22. #22 Wow
    August 12, 2012

    “The warming was supposed to be the greatest at the pole”S” wasn’t it ?”

    Where did you hear that from?

    From a denier? They were lying to you.

  23. #23 Lotharsson
    August 12, 2012

    …has no clue about the concepts of heat capacity and latent heat.

    Indeed, but I didn’t want to confuse them with slightly more advanced concepts.

    (Speaking of which, Muller doesn’t seem to have noticed the research on ocean heat content trends when he claims that the rest of the planet is cool whilst the US broils.)

  24. #24 FrankD
    August 12, 2012

    Indeed, increased energy in the atmosphere means that the circumpolar westerlies, which only occur in Antarctica, are expected to increase in speed. This further isolates Antarctica from the rest of the planet and a local decrease in temperatures in the Arntarctic interior might be expected.

    The increased winds are also expected to spread out sea ice more widely, thus contributing to a temporary increase sea ice extent.

    Meanwhile, warmer water underneath glacier tongues and ice shelves is increasing the rate of iceberg calving, which would also contribute to increased sea ice extent (at the expense of mass loss from the Antarctic icecap).

    Even if Arctic and Antarctic Sea ice were related (ie that SH ice gain counterbalances NH ice loss), Karen neglects to note the order of magnitude of that scale. A 1% per decade increase of Antarctic Sea Ice cannot counterbalance a 10% per decade loss of Arctic Sea Ice.

    And even if all those things were set aside, how can the environmental impact of ice free conditions in the Arctic Ocean, which will happen on a years to decades timescale, be balanced out by ANY amount of sea ice gain in Antarctica.

    We don’t need to worry about droughts here, because we are getting floods there is “logical” only to the insane…

    Triple fail with two-and-a-half twists…

  25. #25 Lotharsson
    August 12, 2012

    And speaking earlier of Charles Pierce’s blog, he has a daily (US) drought report post (e.g. this) during the week discussing the Great Climate Change Hoax invented by Lamborghini-driving scientists of various descriptions and its relation to various concerning observations. (Snark alert!)

    In addition John H. Richardson has been guest posting a series about Keystone XL (e.g. part 3):

    Disaster is our only hope for a cool planet, says [former President of Shell Oil] John Hofmeister.

    He also wants to rebrand “global warming” and “…get more practical and talk about waste management…” (via some sort of powerful fairly independent regulatory agency) in order to “…provide for a sustainable planet”.

  26. #26 Lotharsson
    August 12, 2012

    And from the magazine (rather than the blog), John H. Richardson’s feature report on Keystone.

  27. #27 Lotharsson
    August 12, 2012

    Brad Johnson has a piece about this enemy of the people here

    More permanent link to the article.

  28. #28 Lionel A
    August 12, 2012

    Oops yes, I thought I had selected the exact topic at CP/TP, thanks for the correction, you got there first.

  29. #29 Lionel A
    August 12, 2012
  30. #30 Betula
    August 14, 2012

    It’s all there…. the tin foil, the conspiracies, the hatred, the intolerance, the violent thoughts.

    I’ll just call it “Typical” and post it for your enjoyment:

  31. #31 Lotharsson
    August 14, 2012

    It’s all there…. the tin foil, the conspiracies, the hatred, the intolerance, the violent thoughts.

    Yeah, does have a reputation for most of that, doesn’t it…

  32. #32 John Mashey
    August 14, 2012

    For your amusement:

    Anybody know this guy Michael Kile?

  33. #33 Lotharsson
    August 14, 2012

    On a side note, if anyone is further interested in the current media fluffing of the aforementioned US Republican VP candidate Paul Ryan, Charles Pierce is currently pointing out a few things that don’t mesh with the carefully constructed media narrative – or Ryan’s own political positions. (And peruse the blog for even more…)

  34. #34 Karen
    August 14, 2012

    Thank you for the link to that wonderful article John, yes Oreskes really is amusing 🙂

  35. #35 Bernard J.
    August 14, 2012

    John Mashey.

    It’s official. Quadrant makes Mein Kampf look like Dialogues with the Dalai Lama.

  36. #36 Karen
    August 14, 2012

    Daily Mean Temperatures in the Arctic 1958 – 2012

    Amazing, the charts go back to 1958 and every summer the the temperature follows exactly smack on the same curve, amazing.

    So if the summer temperature in the Arctic is the same every year, including this year, then one could easily conclude that storms smash the ice to bits.

  37. #37 Marco
    August 14, 2012

    So, Karen, we must then conclude that storms have been increasing in the arctic? Right? How else explain that the ice extent is getting less and less and less?

    (don’t worry, guys, I do not expect a coherent answer from Karen)

  38. #38 Wow
    August 14, 2012

    I had wondered whether you were merely playing a retard.

    But no, it seems it is genuine.

    The link given shows one year. It shows that that one year was areond 7C warmer. And there’s no sun to cause that warming over thst period in the year.

    You have proven AGW in your haste to say it isn’t.

  39. #39 FrankD
    August 14, 2012

    What is it with deniers and their inability to understand the simplest aspects of thermodynamics? Anyone who thinks Karen has raised any sort of point should consider the meaning of the terms “latent heat” and “sensible heat”.

    Here’s the Cliff notes – As long as there is ice to melt at 80N even at summer minimum, the temperature there cannot rise substantially above freezing. That is a fundamental principle of thermodynamics, and Karens failure to understand it shows the towering heights of ignorance.

    Once the ice around 80N is gone – which is likely within the next few years, summer temps at that location will be unconstrained by latent heat issues.

    And as Wow mentions – the winter temperature – well above average – is more revealing. Unlike Karen, that’s all sensible.

    Most revealing is Karen’s continued (insane) belief that she can disprove AGW by talking about the Arctic.

  40. #40 MikeH
    August 14, 2012

    Here is the “basic” explanation from SKS for Karen who as others have noted continues to score own goals.

    “If we look at the entire official daily DMI data set, we can quickly see that the Summer temperatures do not vary much over the entire record but the Winter temperatures have significantly increased…”

     “As each summer advances, the ice surface temperature rises, until the melting point of ice is reached. At this point any further thermal energy is used to melt the ice, and the surface temperature (and the air just above it) can not increase while any significant amount of ice remains.  At present there are still significant amounts of sea ice above 80 degrees North through the Summer melt season.”

    And this is from the front page of the DMI web site that Karen linked to.
    “Since the 1970s the extent of sea ice has been measured from satellites. From these measurements we know that the sea ice extent today is significantly smaller than 30 years ago. During the past 10 years the melting of sea ice has accelerated, and especially during the ice extent minimum in September large changes are observed. The sea ice in the northern hemisphere have never been thinner and more vulnerable. “

  41. #41 zoot
    August 14, 2012

    Gee Karen, that went well.
    Maybe you should now show us the evidence that proves the carbon price has ruined Australia’s economy.

  42. #42 Bernard J.
    August 14, 2012


    Check the time stamp “August 11, 2:31 pm” above.

    There’s questioning awaiting answering, and the ice is still melting

  43. #43 John Mashey
    August 15, 2012

    Readers of Merchants of Doubt or Robert Proctor’s Golden Holocaust have learned about some the weird connections between tobacco and climate anti-science, but they just scratched the surface. I was up at UC San Francisco last month (home if the Legacy Tobacco Documents Library) to give a tobacco/climate talk and got to compare notes with some if their researchers.

    But , I see plain-packaging law was upheld! Good on Australia!

  44. #44 ianam
    August 15, 2012

    I’ll just call it “Typical”

    Of course you will; nothing less dishonest is expected of you (or Breitbart, who died of misdirected anger, or any of his followers).

  45. #45 MikeH
    August 16, 2012

    @John Mashey

    We have our own climate/tobacco deniers. These zombies were featured on last night’s ABC news report on the High Court judgment as “the other point of view”.

  46. #46 John Mashey
    August 16, 2012

    MikeH: yep, IPA is on my usual lists.
    Still, credit is due Oz for the plain-paper.
    You’re doing better than most of the US.

  47. #47 Karen
    August 16, 2012

    hahaha you don’t smoke so no one should ?

    Why not have a look around and see what else kills people and ban those things as well, eg doctors, pharmaceuticals (they kill more people than illicit drugs) , breast X rays, cars, the armed forces, cops, some scientists,
    ticks, mosquitoes, GMO’s, sunscreen, fluoride, religion, USA, ect……………..

    What happened to freedom of choice ?

    Why are dangerous chemicals added to tobacco ? And why is it that these chemicals are not banned ?

    Trying to connect the tobacco industry and climate science skepticism is a specious argument, trying to connect the two demonstrates that the CO2 hypothesis is extremely week.

    Your a bunch of control freaks.

  48. #48 Lotharsson
    August 16, 2012

    hahaha you don’t smoke so no one should ?

    Another ECF (Epic Comprehension Fail) from Karen et al. followed by an epically misguided detour based on the faulty premises derived from miscomprehension.

    Trying to connect the tobacco industry and climate science skepticism is a specious argument…

    More epic. Denying the well-established connections doesn’t make them go away.

    …trying to connect the two demonstrates that the CO2 hypothesis is extremely week.

    There is no universe in which this “logic” holds, even allowing for spelling corrections. Methinks you need to look at your own arguments to find the weakness – but history demonstrates that you won’t.

  49. #49 bill
    August 16, 2012

    ‘Karen’, your arguments are so ‘week’ they’re virtually ‘month’, and ‘your’ the fool for being unaware of the well-established links / overlapping of the various facets of science denial. Tobacco lies at its core, and we use the word advisedly.

    Seriously, anybody reading this who’s on the same side as this sub-literate serial buffoon – don’t you feel degraded?

    PS: ‘ect……’ you should probably receive some! 😉 And by all means, smoke – but take out private health cover first, eh? We wouldn’t want the Gubmint to be forking-out for the consequences of your chosen ‘liberties’, would we?…

  50. #50 bill
    August 16, 2012

    Also, John M – a quick visit to John Q’s gives a bit more background on the court case – and the fact that the Legalised Drug Industry has already embarked on another court action, with the help of some compliant small nations and our friends at the WTO.

  51. #51 Karen
    August 16, 2012

    birdbrain bill, I don’t smoke and never have.

    Four of my friends have been killed by cancer, 2 smoked and 2 never smoked.

    My neighbor is 92 and has been smoking now for 80yrs, he always smoked roll your own.

    I don’t think there has been a study into effects of naturally grown tobacco vs chemically modified tobacco ?

    Anyway I’m not one to tell people what they can or can’t do with their lives, I’ll leave that up to the control freak nerds in here.

    ps Lothy, hahaha, jeez your a good teezer !!! Got a word wong did eye. LOL

  52. #52 zoot
    August 16, 2012

    I don’t think there has been a study into effects of naturally grown tobacco vs chemically modified tobacco ?

    I believe it’s all grown naturally. There have been studies on the health consequences of the various methods of curing the tobacco. (Hint: tobacco is always bad for your health)
    I’m sure a genius like you could find these studies without our help. And besides, I’m too busy working towards world domination.

  53. #53 Karen
    August 16, 2012

    hi zoot,

    I was just having a bit of a look around with the help of goog’s re natural vs chemical tobacco and was reading this when I seen your post.

    You obviously know nothing about tobacco to think that it is grown naturally, I suppose that you also think that GM corn is natural and Mc Donalds fry’s are healthy because they are made from potatoe’s.

    How old are you zoot ? You seem very naive and may learn something from that link.

  54. #54 Mack
    August 16, 2012

    According to Ms Oreske we are all just chain-smoking denialists who should know better.and then with some brilliant,deductive,insightful thinking the stupid cow provides us with the climate science spectre of the atmosphere huffing away on smokestack fags.
    According to Slothy 11.46am there’s “well established connections” Yeah but your synaptic connections are not so hot eh Slothy.

  55. #55 Lotharsson
    August 16, 2012

    Mack shows up right after Karen with a very similar style of “argument” – all hat assertion and redirection, no cattle evidence or logic.

  56. #56 Marco
    August 16, 2012

    Wow, Karen, you do know how to find your information.

    Let’s take some of the popular stories on naturalnews:
    On number 1, and by a fair margin “Colorado Batman shooting shows obvious signs of being staged”.
    Yup, it really says what the title says.

    Number 2, trailing significantly behind number 1, but still: “Obama seizes control over all food, farms, livestock, farm equipment, fertilizer and food production across America”
    Waaaaaaaaa! Waaaaaaaaa! Put on your aluminum hats now! The government is coming!

    Also quite popular: “Vaccines have been based on medical fraud for over a hundred years”.
    and another story on vaccine and supposed links to autism.

    Karen really knows how to pick her supporting evidence: yet another conspiracy nutwebsite!

  57. #57 adelady
    city of wine and roses
    August 16, 2012

    Vaccination! Huh?! Fluoride? Really? X-rays? Double huh! Along with doctors and Big Pharma! Yah boo hiss.

    My bingo card is full. What’s today’s prize?

    Who said there was no such thing as crank magnetism.

  58. #58 John Mashey
    August 16, 2012

    bill, thanks for the reminder to visit JQ.
    As noted in Fake science,…, Appendices F and G, there is lots of documentation of the climate/tobacco connection.

    More importantly, p.38, 30 years ago, the typical starting age for smoking was 15-16. By now, it’s down to 13-14. Very few people start after 18, and if they do, they find it much easier to stop. Setting nicotine addiction properly requires it to happen while brains are developing.

    Cigarette company business model =
    a) Addict children by 18
    b) Kill them as slowly as possible.

    As usual, I strongly recommend Bob Proctor’s book, Golden Holocaust … The cigarette companies hate this book so much they try to stop its name from even being mentioned in court.

  59. #59 zoot
    August 16, 2012

    Karen you really should sign up for a remedial reading course. Your comprehension skills are abysmal.

  60. #60 Lionel A
    August 16, 2012

    On ‘Golden Holocaust‘ shame the cover price is over £30 UK.

    I don’t do Kindle, I fear for when we no longer have a choice on this. But I suppose how many dead trees am I consuming with my library. The way I look at it this is a carbon store. Maybe I am wrong about that, maybe the ‘KarenMackSpotBetDuff’ club can help here. 😉

  61. #61 Turboblocke
    August 16, 2012

    Cigarettes are the only mass-produced product that will probably kill you or harm your health if you use it the way the manufacturer intends.

  62. #62 John Mashey
    August 16, 2012

    Lionel: yes, it’s expensive, but it is long, with huge amount of information and I’m not really sure how well it work on Kindle.
    First approach would be to see if accessible library has one or can be urged to get one. Taht’s probably good enouhg unless one is actively researching this turf, i.e., my copy has dozens of stickies and many highlights.

  63. #63 Mack
    August 16, 2012

    Meanwhile back to the paranoid ravings of Ms Oreske with smoking Lindzens under her bed?

  64. #64 chek
    August 16, 2012

    No, “Mack” – ‘paranoid ravings’ are what you and your fellow zoo inmates do – it being all you have. Dr. Oreskes on the other hand presents evidenced research, which is a concept you can’t seem to grasp nor dare to.

  65. #65 bill
    August 17, 2012

    The links between tobacco science denial and climate science denial – and, for that matter ozone science denial and acid-rain science denial, etc. – are extensively documented and irrefutable.

    These mutts not only don’t have a counter argument beyond ‘it’s not truuuueee!’ but ‘both’ ‘Karen’ and ‘Mack’ are both inadvertently proving the point by spouting the tobaccos arm of science denial’s very own memes and rationalizations.

    The reason why you’re vacantly mouthing this is the same reason the ventriloquists with their hands up your backsides do. Tobacco realised that it had lost the debate to science, and so it set out to discredit the scientific method itself. I’m no great believer in ‘evil’ as a phenomenon, but this is as close to it as you’re ever likely to get.

    They also found an audience of far-too-many self-deluding rubes only-too-willing to slowly kill themselves – and others – for the sake of the corporate bottom-line. Just like climate science denial. Can’t win the science debate? Attack science itself! And get a pack of jackasses to bray along with you…

    (This you dignify as ‘liberty’?! Phhhhttt!)

    And ‘Natural News’? Where the venal Hippoisie meets the bug-eyed Tin-Foil-Hatters? Give me a break…

  66. #66 bill
    August 17, 2012

    Also, for a broad overview of the science denial industry – there is one – and it’s too-many successes, you can’t go past David Michaels’ ‘Doubt is Their Product.’ He’s a former Clinton-era DoE Assistant Secretary and is currently an Assistant Secretary for Labor in the OSHA.

    My hard-copy of his book has several dings in it from being hurled across the room in disgust. It’s almost as infuriating as Bolt’s blog. This is not Michaels’ fault: he’s just telling an awful tale no-one should have to hear…

  67. #67 FrankD
    August 17, 2012


    For mine, you missed the best of the frootloopery Karen linked to: “Fukushima reactor No. 4 vulnerable to catastrophic collapse; could unleash 85 times Cesium-137 radiation of Chernobyl; human civilization on the brink

    Human civilisation on the brink? Why, anyone would think Karen was going all alarmist on us… 😉

  68. #68 Marco
    August 17, 2012

    Sorry I missed that one, Frank!

    Not surprised that stuff is there, too, though…

  69. #69 bill
    August 17, 2012

    Actually, folks, it gets better. If you look at Peter Sinclair’s last piece for the Yale Forum ‘This is Not Cool‘ series, at 1′ 31″ and 3’14” you’ll see Mr. Natural News himself – Mike Adams – appear in his role as ‘The Health Ranger’ for the egregious Infowars.

    He’s rambling about the Gubmint bringing about ‘weather-radicalization’ and ‘chem-trails’ and ‘ionization’ being responsible for the US’ extreme weather. Certainly not AGW. Oh, and he’s not impressed by Al Gore. Methinks this guy’s position is absolutely invulnerable to satire.

    (And please do note the absolutely extraordinary graphic he chooses to stand in front of!)

    And if you check out the link our ‘learned’ friend provided, you’ll see several more examples of the explicit link between this hippie/alternative/new age conspiracy-peddling and the nominally ‘conservative’ Tea-Partyite conspiracy-nuttery of Alex Jones.

    In the main far-Rightist hippies appears to have been chiefly a US phenomenon, though I suppose we have to consider David Icke!

  70. #70 bill
    August 17, 2012

    Bugger: wrong link above due to uncleared clip-board – This is the link to Sinclair’s video – the other was for Gareth R’s new book!

  71. #71 Lionel A
    August 17, 2012

    Pointing to another blog where a post of mine may have some resonance here.

    Also, this may be of interest:

    Earthquakes, Volcanoes and Climate Change. The pdfs behind the two ‘Source’ links can be readily downloaded.

  72. #72 ianam
    August 17, 2012

    the stupid cow

    Along with all the other negative traits that garbage like Mack displays is misogyny.

  73. #73 Donald Oats
    August 18, 2012

    Tim, where are you?

  74. #74 Karen
    August 18, 2012

    Oh yeah, hahahaha

    This is from birdbrain bill’s link at August 17, 6:17 am ,

    “Flying around a world battered by rapid climate change and struggling with economic collapse in a hi-tech airship, Lemmy encounters the remnants of our civilisation – the artificial intelligences searching for the singularity, a rocking bishop in his flying cathedral, the last climate sceptics, the technovegans and deep green terrorists, billionaire libertarians in their bubble, and much, much more. Not to mention the goats, the girlfriend with bots in her head and the elixir of life (which is cheese).

    “Part dystopian tome a la ‘Mad Max’ meets ‘Waterworld’, part stinging indictment of the mendacious ongoing campaign to deny the threats of human-caused climate change, The Aviator delivers a winning combination of wit and insight as it depicts the perils we may bestow upon future generations if we choose not to act on the greatest threat human civilization has ever faced.”

    No wonder you are so twisted bill 🙂

    You should submit that to the IPCC, I’m sure that they would like to use it in their next CO2 canard.

  75. #75 Tim Lambert
    August 18, 2012

    I’m here, but cubital tunnel is limiting my computer usage.

  76. #76 bill
    August 18, 2012

    It’s called a ‘novel’, ‘Karen’. I know you find it hard to distinguish between stories and real life – not to mention between blog drivel and scientific papers – but for some of us they’re considered a pleasure.

  77. #77 Karen
    August 18, 2012

    That really is an eye opening insight into the pee brain of an alarmist, lol

    Lemmy Bill, climate crusader, hahaha, once again demonstrates his gullible addiction to climate conspiracies. DOUBLE ROFL, tehehe

  78. #78 Mack
    August 18, 2012

    ….”Mack displays is misogyny” yeah ianam that is a bit of misogyny for you…my heart bleeds.. “paranoid ravings of a stupid cow” read it again…and as Chopper Reid says “harden the fuck up” 🙂

  79. #79 Marco
    August 18, 2012

    Karen, you are the one who cites, in evidence, websites that are filled with conspiracy nuttery. You must be projecting when you accuse others of a conspiracy.

  80. #80 bill
    August 18, 2012

    Talk about dreck and drecker…

  81. #81 Bernard J.
    August 18, 2012


    I asked a psychologist friend of mine to spend a few minutes to read your posts, to see what he thought about your state of mind. I won’t bother with the rather colourful commentary, but others reading this thread might be unsurprised to hear that he estimated your IQ to lie somewhere between 85 and 95, and likely not much over 90 at best.

    Rather says it all, really.

  82. #82 Mack
    August 18, 2012

    You stick with your psychologist friend in the meantime Bernie baby but for your sake I recommend moving in higher social circles and get really friendly with a lot of psychiatrists.

  83. #83 Wow
    August 18, 2012

    Mack, do you habe no thoughts of your own?

  84. #84 Karen
    August 18, 2012

    barnturd I doubt that you have any friends, I would assume that your therapist felt that you needed some sort of ego boost, I do hope it helps to alleviate your melancholia and dysphoria,

    I have a question for you barnturd, how much firewood do you burn through the winter and have you worked out your carbon footprint ?

  85. #85 Bernard J.
    August 18, 2012

    It hardly bears commenting on…

  86. #86 chek
    August 18, 2012

    “Karen” said: “how much firewood do you burn ”

    We can also add the carbon cycle and the impact of fossil fuels on it to the list of things “Karen” doesn’t understand before spouting off..

  87. #87 Turboblocke
    August 18, 2012

    how much firewood do you burn through the winter…

    Firewood is a renewable energy source.

  88. #88 Lionel A
    August 18, 2012

    Kraken bubkas:

    …how much firewood do you burn through the winter…

    That depends on how many splinters fly out of your head when you scratch it.

  89. #89 Lionel A
    August 18, 2012

    Cubital tunnel – ouch, been there and carpal tunnel too (all those screws on Phantom F4k panels with one outer wing panel having 948 screws with each aircraft having two such panels one to port and another to starboard).

  90. #90 StevoR
    August 19, 2012

    Article on the Drum of possible interest here :

    My apologies if I’m too late with this and been beaten to it.

  91. #91 Jeff Harvey
    August 20, 2012

    *he estimated your [Karen, Mack et al] IQ to lie somewhere between 85 and 95, and likely not much over 90 at best.*

    That high? For these twits that’s Mensa level… My estimation is that their arguments are generally at kindergarten level. I browse here now and again these days and frankly I can’t understand why these clowns persist. This summer has been intellectually devastating to the climate change deniers at it so happens anyway, what with events unfolding in North American and the Arctic. As their arguments continue to melt, their voices become increasingly shrill.

  92. #92 ianam
    August 20, 2012

    Sorry to hear about the cubital tunnel, Tim … get well soon, mate!

  93. #93 John Mashey
    August 20, 2012

    See See No Evil, Speak Little Truth, Break Rules, Blame Others.

    The GMU mess was even worse than we thought.

  94. #94 Bernard J.
    August 20, 2012

    USKMS, Betula, Duff, et al.

    Where’s the cooling that you each seem to be anticipating?

  95. #95 Lionel A
    August 20, 2012


    I have just returned here after reading through that Desmog article to give others the heads up. No need as I see. I have downloaded the PDF (something of a collection building here) to study – take some time that will.

    Well done for all that work.

    However, I feel powerless despite having all this info by not being in the US. Although I could probably do an Assange and get extradited extraordinarily rendered, and I used to think that had something to do with meat processing (well I suppose it does in a macabre way).

    It is clear that across the world democracy, or what passes for democracy and Noam Chomsky can put people straight on that score, also John Pilger, is under attack from all quarters.

  96. #96 Lionel A
    August 20, 2012

    Bernard and One Down,

    its a waste of time for the troll collective is in this body politic.

  97. #97 Lionel A
    August 20, 2012

    Argh! it should have been this body politic, although not much to choose between.

  98. #98 bill
    August 21, 2012

    The Deniosphere has never been so sullen and silent.

    All but the most strident idiots have retreated to huddle their confirmation enclaves in the face of the extraordinary melt events in the Northern Hemisphere.

    God knows what they’re jabbering to each other about – Climategate, probably. But, seriously; who cares?

    I don’t doubt that no small number are, like formerly ardent fans when the once-triumphant team is now just wooden-spooning, slipping quietly away. Soon they’ll deny Denial…

    The Most Stupid People in History. Who’d be ’em?

  99. #99 Bernard J.
    August 21, 2012

    Australians here might be very interested to hear that John Ralston Saul is conducting a speaking tour here over the next few weeks:

    Hop to it, ladies and gentlemen – he’s a very good speaker.

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