September 2012 Open Thread

Time for more thread.


  1. #1 Lionel A
    September 11, 2012

    John Mashey

    I suppose that I should be old enough and ugly enough to not be surprised by the level of deception and corruption that is exposed by this excellent book, a must read for all those who have been smokers and still manage to live, just in many cases, or those who have smokers amongst family and friends.

    Having written that I am astonished at the fact that all the enablers of this dreadful trade – the PR firms, lawyers and media shills at the head of the queue have not been hounded by litigation. Until that is I have considered how the tendrils of this animal run through the ‘system’ like mycelium through cheese.

    Of course the tobacco growers were at the base of the industry and we all know about one of those.

    I am only just under half way through (I am reading titles on maritime history and nuclear power too at the moment) and have resisted the temptation to look ahead to the obviously interesting looking points that you raise in your September 10, 11:20 pm

  2. #2 bill
    September 11, 2012

    Is Jo Nova still all tied up about tungsten impregnation in gold bars? I mean, not that she’s conspiratorially minded, or anything… and the preservation of our vital bodily fluids is doubtlessly important…

    Goose Says ‘What?’ is not getting any smarter, it seems

  3. #3 Lionel A
    September 11, 2012

    How clever men can become silly old men is clear in this clip where David Bellamy talks nonsense about thickening Arctic sea ice and growing glaciers .

    What do you say now David? Bellamy that is not Duff but you are both silly old men.

  4. #4 Bernard J.
    September 11, 2012

    David Bellamy makes me sad.

    When I was a boy, he was one of my hero-Davids triumvirate, which these days has sadly devolved to a biumvirate.

    How the mighty good can fall…

    Oh, and Attenborough and Suzuki, in case anyone was wondering.

  5. #5 Lionel A
    September 11, 2012

    Oh, and Attenborough and Suzuki, in case anyone was wondering.

    I had guessed.

    Bellamy’s, ‘Measurements, show me where those measurements are…‘ (at 06:05 in clip) reminds me of Wendy Wright’s insistence that Dawkins shows her one evidence [sic]. Oh what depths for a one time scientist to plumb, try to measure those depths and you would lose your ‘lead’.

    Meanwhile the Stephan Lewandowsky show, sideshow though it is by distracting from the bigger story of Arctic ice, has become extremely illuminating but the ‘roaches still haven’t twigged.

  6. #6 Wow
    September 11, 2012

    David just doesn’t understand why he isn’t employed at the BBC any more.

    He *knows* it must be because he said something that “the man” doesn’t want said. Originally, this was told as his attacks on John Major (then PM). This garnered no attention. He then found out by retconning his statements against AGW as being *before* (as opposed to the real time line where it was *after*) he was given the boot as the reason for his lack of work.

    More depressing to me is Johnny “Think of a Number” Ball is apparently a denier.

    Nearly as bad is Patrick Moore (Astronomer) is a denier too. And that dude KNOWS that the saturated gas argument is incorrect, since otherwise you wouldn’t be able to see how much of an element stars or planets had without going there and taking a sample.

  7. #7 Turboblocke
    September 11, 2012

    Are you sure that Sir Patrick Moore, the astronomer, is a denier. There’s another Patrick Moore who seems to be.

  8. #8 John Mashey
    September 11, 2012

    Lionel A

    At the halfway point, you have much more to come, and I would suggest that, unlike many books, it is well worth skimming the notes, 55. 563-665, as quite interesting material is there, not just the references.
    For example, see p.565, note 16.
    or p.571 about cigarette placements, sometimes using fictional brands, like Llama, that happened to look like Camels.

  9. #9 Wow
    September 11, 2012

    Unfortunately so, Turbobloke.

    Sir Patrick Moore also is a member of Nigel Lawson’s clique.

  10. #10 Bernard J.
    September 11, 2012

    Somewhere in the past I did a little comparison of Patrick Moore signatures. Frustratingly I can’t find the posts, but it was quite interesting…

    Is anyone a cleverer searcherer than I?

  11. #11 Vince Whirlwind
    September 11, 2012

    Lionel – you’re wondering what the lunatics and liars are going to do to escape people’s wrath: I know what their plan is: Series 5 of Pop Idol with phone-in voting should distract them sufficiently. We share this planet with a large number of morons.

  12. #12 lord_sidcup
    September 12, 2012

    David Bellamy is also a supporter of homeopathy:

    There are 2 Patrick Moores – the astronomer and the former environmental activist – and both are deniers but the latter gets more exposure because of his environmental credentials.

    Patrick Moore the astronomer has stated:

    Now for global warming. Of course we are going through a period of warming, but so far as human culpability is concerned I am a total sceptic and I fear we are dealing with political manoeuvring. There was, for example, much greater marked warming at the end of the Maunder Minimum; what about the Mediaeval Maximum, when Britain was hotter than it is now? No doubt, the present period of warming will be followed by a period of cooling, as has happened in the past time and time again.
    After all, the Sun is to a mild extent a variable star and we cannot control it – though no doubt George W. Bush believes that he can.

    I may be right; I may be wrong. In a few
    decades we will know. If I do turn out to be
    wrong and rising sea-levels mean that
    waves come lapping up Selsey High Street
    and flooding our cricket ground, please
    accept my apologies in advance.

  13. #13 Wow
    September 12, 2012

    “If I do turn out to be wrong and rising sea-levels mean that
    waves come lapping up Selsey High Street and flooding our cricket ground, please accept my apologies in advance.”

    And how the hell is this supposed to be of help?

    “I really apologise if it turns out I actually AM too drunk to drive and run over your wife…”.

    I mean, really.

    “I may be wrong, in which case I’ve killed your grandchildren. Sorry about that”.

  14. #14 bill
    September 12, 2012

    It’s a sad testament to this celestial Patrick Moore that upon arrival I’d assumed you were responding to another faux-jovial inanity from Duffer…

  15. #15 Jeff Harvey
    September 12, 2012

    The last remark by Moore is utterly contemptible. Essentially, he does not understand the concept of collapsing ecosystems, fraying food webs, the loss of vital ecosystem services and the dire effects on human civilization. The problem is that Moore clearly understands nix about systems ecology so, like many of the deniers, he assumes that Homo sapiens is largely immune from our continued assault on natural systems. Bellamy ought to know better, but his embarrassing performance in his debate with George Monbiot two years ago suggests, in my humble opinion that he is ‘losing it’.

  16. #16 Bernard J.
    September 12, 2012

    Sadly, Astro-Moore’s commentary is genuine.

    Back when I first posted about it (I still can’t remember where), I compared the signature attached to an anti-warming item with a documented Moore signature. They were the same.

    If Carl was alive now he’d probably have quite a lot to say to Patrick.

  17. #17 Anthony David
    September 12, 2012

    Given his withering criticism of Plimer’s book Heaven and Earth, I find it very difficult to believe that
    Kurt Lambeck said what is being implied by “The Australian”. Has anyone sold their soul and bought the paper or subscribed to the paywall and is able to summarise the article?

  18. #18 Chris O'Neill
    September 12, 2012


    Nobody is interested in making bets with loons

    What do you care where easy money comes from?

  19. #19 Lionel A
    September 12, 2012

    Bernard J. on September 10, 2:33 pm wrote:

    Can’t someone provide the link to the Arctic sea ice graphic animation that’s been getting around recently? The rotated three-axis one…

    I appreciate that this one has already been answered but Joe Romm has a new article up at CP which provides more context.

    I particularly like this statement within a comment there by Andy Lee Robinson the creator of the video:

    Mining Canadian tarsands is just like a nicotine addict raiding ashtrays for butts.
    Leave it alone.

    Yes, this one should go viral along with the video.

  20. #20 Robert Murphy
    September 12, 2012

    Joe Bastardi, still claiming that the Arctic ice is “rapidly recovering”:

    He’s still showing the map for sea surface temps, not ice. I emailed someone at the DMI/COI and they (Jacob L. Hoyer) confirmed that the light grey areas that Bastardi thinks is ice is really SST below -1.7*C:

    “Hi Robert,
    I admit it can be difficult to see, but actually the light gray color is in the colorbar, in the triangle to the far left.
    This means that all temperatures (including sea ice) below -1.7 are marked light gray.
    Hope this helped.
    Best wishes,

    I’ve tweeted Bastardi that he is wrong, but no response. I assume he gets a lot of tweets and could have missed mine. He keeps digging his hole deeper and deeper the longer he makes his absurd claim. I think he’ll blame the people at DMI/COI for his mistake; he’s that kind of guy.

  21. #21 Karen
    September 12, 2012

    While you all have been cheering the loss of sea ice in the Arctic the Antarctic has been kicking goals, for warming to be Global the Antarctic would have to melting at a similar rate.

    Oooops sorry it’s gaining MASS you silly dumbcoffs.

    hahaha, hehe, barnturd wants a bet, hehe, what I want to know is where does a simple scientist, and I really do mean “SIMPLE”, get A$1,000,000 to fritter away on a long shot ?

    Spit it out barnturd, where are you getting the doe ? I think you have been gazing into your crystal ball and playing with your runes a bit to much.

    Melting of sea ice in the Arctic only confirms that long term weather patterns are in play, so I would suggest that any person thinking about taking a wager with the barnturd would also have to include the melting of the Antarctic in succession with the Arctic.

  22. #22 Wow
    September 12, 2012

    OK, spots, any examples of “use” cheering the loss of Arctic ice?

    I guess since the predictions of catastrophic loss of arctic sea ice has been too conservative, you’re unable to call it “alarmism” any more, huh?

    PS it’s “dummkopf” and in Germany, it’s rather a complement, rather on the lines of “Oh, you scamp, you!”.

    PPS you still have this problem with realising the earth is round rather than flat. You really need to work on that… Wasserkopf.

  23. #23 Jeff Harvey
    September 12, 2012

    Karen, you ignoramus,

    See if you can spell correctly, first:it is ‘dough’ not ‘doe’, you twerp;

    Second, I wouldn’t believe a shred of information from WUWT if my life depended on it. Essentially, the denial ship is spouting leak after leak as they desperately try and explain away every climate-related event that is a result of AGW. Heat waves, droughts, extreme rainfall events, rapid ice loss, these dolts have their work cut out for them.

    Given that the current changes are often exceeding even the worst predictions of the last IPCC report in magnitude, no wonder Watts and his right wing acolytes are gettng more and more shill. As the water laps up around their necks, expect them to be screaming, ‘Believe us!!!!!! ‘louder and louder… until they go under, vanquished by the sheer volume of empirical evidence. What a bunch of shits they are.

  24. #24 Lionel A
    September 12, 2012

    …the denial ship is spouting leak after leak …

    Indeed, it has now sustained more direct torpedo hits than HMS Royal Oak and only the sheer amount of cork being pumped in by the like of the Kochs (no note Cokes) are keeping this Enterprise

    And Karen you are one ignorant wazok and I doubt your ability to source a convincing article on Antarctic gaining mass. The Antarctic as a whole is not experiencing an ice mass gain trend.

    BTW Nadelkopf, we do not celebrate the rapid disintegration of Arctic sea ice for WE understand the implications.

  25. #25 Lionel A
    September 12, 2012

    Here you are Nadelkopf Karen:

    Is Antarctica losing or gaining ice?


    Antarctic Ice Melt .

  26. #26 chek
    September 12, 2012

    Just when you think deniers can’t be any more daft…

    Karenmackspot, the point of the polar ice isn’t to be able to say to some passing alien “woohoo we have x GTonnes of ice on our planet. Aren’t we great?”

    No, your wittering about antarctic sea ice only demonstrates that you don’t understand (and your handlers don’t want you to understand) that it’s ‘albedo’ (look it up) that’s affected.

    Because obviously the cold depths of space being reflected back into the cold depths of space space in winter isn’t what happens. It’s the ice during the summer months that reflects incoming radiation back out into space. Except now it doesn’t because it’s rapidly diminishing year on year. Your fancilful, nincompoop concept of some sort of ‘balance’ is idiotically ignorant.

    Stick to scratching your arse and voting for X-Factor Idol or whatever else it is you do, because it’s painfully and embarrassingly obvious you know nothing about climate or its drivers.

  27. #27 cRR Kampen
    September 12, 2012

    Karen: spam.
    Did you look at temperature changes around the Antarctic?


  28. #28 Lotharsson
    September 12, 2012

    …more and more shill

    I quite like that typo 😉

  29. #29 Lotharsson
    September 12, 2012

    I see that Karen won’t put his/her money where his/her mouth is and take up one of Bernard’s “long shot” bets, and I bet that no change of mind will be forthcoming either.

    Even Karen doesn’t appear to have the conviction of Karen’s claims.

  30. #30 Karen
    September 12, 2012
  31. #31 John
    September 12, 2012

    It was only two years ago Karenmackspot was heralding the new ice age and the “COLD CLIMATE” (his capitals).

    Now his argument is “it’s warming, so what?”

  32. #32 bill
    September 12, 2012

    That must be well away from those parts of the Antarctic Peninsula that µWatts claimed only the other day are being heated by a UHI effect then… 😉

    Seriously, ‘Karen’, it doesn’t seem that even you really believe this crap.

    Notice how few of you there are remaining, incidentally? It’s just the hard-core of absolute nutters lingering on…

  33. #33 John
    September 12, 2012

    your only seeing a bit of warm weather in up north, you all can stop your exuberant rejoicing about a bit of melted ice.

    Karenmackspot, you seem to mistake our concern at the unfolding catastrophe that you yourself ridiculed the very idea of not that long ago – that is, declining arctic sea ice – with your joy at a single cold winter where it snowed a bit and was allegedly “proof” of the collapsing scam etc etc. How’s all that working out for you?

    Why does ice keep melting?

    Why do temperatures keep rising?

    Even your tiny brain recognises deep down that you are wrong. But this isn’t about science, this is about your fringe extreme right-wing free market ideology.

    As I’ve pointed out before, the crux of your argument is climate is weather and cold disproves global warming. So, by that argument, hot weather proves global warming.

    We have won.

  34. #34 John
    September 12, 2012

    Come on Karenmackspot, you lightweight. Tell us all about the global cooling faith you so fervently devoted yourself to.

    Tell us about how the US drought wasn’t as bad as the 1930’s but leave out the bit where agricultural science improved exponentially. I mean, imagine handling this year’s drought with depression-era technology! That is what you believe farmers did.

  35. #35 Karen
    September 12, 2012

    birdbrain dill, this blog not so long ago was absolutely rampant with nutters like yourself, where have they gone ?

    Most of them have changed their tags and are now over at wattsies place.

    Have you noticed a change in the weather ?,4828249&dq=flood+china&hl=en

    check out that jeff, hehehe, he really shoooden talk about bad spaaling, anybody can go back and look at his atrocious mis mash posts.

    umm….while I’m at it dopey, doe is a vernacular for money in Australia, it most likely evolved out of the term “the bread winner”.

  36. #36 Karen
    September 12, 2012

    I see little Jonny is playing pocket billiards again,

  37. #37 Robert Murphy
    September 12, 2012

    “Have you noticed a change in the weather ? ”

    Huh? What does a flood in China in 1931 have to do with anything?

    “doe is a vernacular for money in Australia, it most likely evolved out of the term “the bread winner”.”

    It’s spelled “dough” you moron. A “doe” is a female deer.

  38. #38 Bernard J.
    September 12, 2012

    KarenMackSunspot (the below-averaged-IQ numpty with the recalcitrant punctuation problem) says at 10:57 am on 12 September 2012:

    barnturd wants a bet, hehe, what I want to know is where does a simple scientist, and I really do mean “SIMPLE”, get A$1,000,000 to fritter away on a long shot ?

    Oh dear. Here we go again – another graceless display of boundless innumeracy. One would think that USKMS would have learned from the debacle that was the Timezone Affair.

    KarenMackSunspot, go back to my post on this thread at 9:55 am on 11 September 2012. I said:

    I’ll put down two hundred grams of gold

    Pay attention to the link; it goes directly to, which indicates that the current spot gold price is about $56.05 per gram.

    I bet 200 grams.

    200 grams of gold at $56.05 per gram = $11 210. That’s eleven thousand two hundred and ten dollars. US dollars.

    That is AU$10 676. In case that escapes USKMS, that’s ten thousand six hundred and seventy-six dollars. Australian dollars. As of 12 September 2012.

    Seriously, Spotty works it out as a million bucks?! The unable-to-count bozo is exaggerating the size of my bet by two orders of magnitude – which is one hundred times for the innumerati such as he. Or, if one wants to be pedantic, by 93.666 times.

    Who’s the simple one, eh?

    Yes, for me that is an extremely large sum, but I’m happy to lay it on the line to prove a point.

    And if any of you climate change denying shits actually have the courage to stand by your claims and enter into a legally-binding wager with me, I will win AU$26 690 (500 grams of gold’s worth) in today’s terms (with all the tumult of future financial crises adjusting that figure) by 2020.

    Of course, if the denialists are correct and I am wrong, they will scoop up AU$10 676. But apparently they don’t trust their own propaganda enough to fleece me of this money.

  39. #39 cRR Kampen
    September 12, 2012

    So Karen 12:08 post two graphs depicting global temperature but will not have us look at temperature trens of the southern hemisphere or even more southerly regions.
    What is Karen hiding? No decline, I’d surmise.

  40. #40 Wow
    September 12, 2012

    “Tell us about how the US drought wasn’t as bad as the 1930′s but leave out the bit where agricultural science improved exponentially.”

    Obviously Spots believes that Agri Business is just a big scam. That they don’t increase yields despite the billions they rake in.

  41. #41 Lionel A
    September 12, 2012

    Karen wibbled:

    umm….while I’m at it dopey, doe is a vernacular for money in Australia, it most likely evolved out of the term “the bread winner”.

    Uh! What do they use to make bread you numbskull, it sure isn’t venison?

    As for We-Use-Wishful-Thinking post about Antarctic Sea ice – that isn’t the basis of calculations for Antarctic ice mass you dummy. Back to your meat-loaves you idiot.

    PS You still have not answered the question how much heat energy is required to raise the temperature of 1 gm of water through 1 degree C, and how much heat energy is required to melt 1 gm of ice?

    No go figure why temperature changes only inform on sensible heat and think of the implications.

    Tick, tick. tick.

  42. #42 FrankD
    September 12, 2012

    Fark, Bernard, that’s just about calculus you’re doing there! Karen has demonstrated repeatedly here that she has no idea of the significance of the sign of a number (her Svarlbard “argument” relies on two negatives summing to a positive), or of place value (the Antarctica area anomaly of +200,000 = Arcticarea anomaly of -2,000,000).

    She couldn’t have followed your gold calculations without reading aloud, pen and paper, and a numerate adult standing by to explain the workings….

  43. #43 zoot
    September 12, 2012

    umm….while I’m at it dopey, doe is a vernacular for money in Australia, it most likely evolved out of the term “the bread winner”.

    This is going straight to the pool room.

  44. #44 Jeff Harvey
    September 12, 2012

    Karen’s nothing more than a typical example of the kind of brainless idiot who feebly dabbles in science to support their far-right political views. Beats me why schmucks like Karen-Mack-Spotty hate government so much, but they do. So they see a leftie conspiracy behind every government regulation.

    Frankly, the Karen’s of this world are an embarrassment. They don’t do science, but they think they know a lot about various fields of science (we’ve been over this before, with the D-K discussions). And they clearly spend too much of their sad lives wallowing in the right wing blogs that tell them what they want to hear.

    Earth to Karen: Watts is not taken seriously by the scientific community. Neither is McIntyre. Or McKitrick. Or most of the others on the academic fringe who wear their ideaological views on their sleeves. Science has moved on. This year has been devastating to the deniers. Many of their arguments are being annihalated empirically. Like the Arctic ice, their numbers are shrinking. I am sure that the Flat Earthers went through this same process several hundred years ago. I for one, am sad that it is taking the planetary climate system to show the Karen’s of this world for what they are. I just hope that by the time the problem is fully acknowledged – and we are getting closer every day – it won’t be too late.

  45. #45 Lionel A
    September 12, 2012

    Karen meat-loaf cop a load of this and think, if you are capable that is:

    Arctic warning: As the system changes, we must adjust our science which was linked to by Gail at CP under ‘Arctic Death Spiral: The Video‘ by Joe Romm

  46. #46 Wow
    September 12, 2012

    “Beats me why schmucks like Karen-Mack-Spotty hate government so much”

    Because they failed to be as stupendously successful as the know themselves to deserve.

    Therefore there must be SOMEONE keeping them down.

    The GUBMINT!!!

    If it weren’t teh gubmint, they’d have to consider it was something wrong with them. And that’s unpossible.

  47. #47 Wow
    September 12, 2012

    “This is going straight to the pool room.”

    It’s also wrong again, doubling down on the dumb.

    Dough is slang for money. Doe isn’t. It is still a female dear.

    Spots is like a blind and crippled doe: still no idea.

  48. #48 Vince Whirlwind
    September 13, 2012

    @Anthony David: Just Google “Kurt Lambeck The Australian” and a link to the article will appear.

    It doesn’t appear Kurt Lambeck has said anything revolutionary and in this instance The Australian isn’t going beyond stressing the uncertainties. They’re not actually misquoting anybody or inserting editorial disguised as fact, as they usually do.

  49. #49 ianam
    September 13, 2012

    It is still a female dear.

    [bites lip]

  50. #50 Vince Whirlwind
    September 13, 2012

    Yes, Wow, punctuation fail.

    A doe is still a female, dear.

  51. #51 Marco
    September 13, 2012

    And while we’re having popcorn at shapingtomorrowsworld (one wonders how Steve McIntyre feels it appropriate to continue to make demands for information after failing to apologize and continuing to malign Lewandowsky on climateaudit, and, of course, trying to set up FoI requests to badger Lewandowsky), in Germany a working group that was supposed to look at adaptation to climate change had all its climate scientists leave the group.
    Information unfortunately only in German

    The short story: Acatech, notably the German Academy for Technical Sciences (warning: engineers) makes a workgroup, and in all its wisdom makes Fritz Vahrenholt one of the chairmen of that workgroup. Result: loads of talk about adaptation, but don’t even dare to suggest that CO2 is the main driving force for the observed climate changes. It’s equally likely the sun! Or volcanoes! Or something!

    Comment by von Storch on Klimazwiebel is of interest,
    as he deep down admits that building bridges with these (ideological) pseudoskeptics is not really possible – but he’ll continue trying anyway.

  52. #52 Wow
    September 13, 2012




  53. #53 P. Lewis
    September 13, 2012

    Though it’s clear from the context that he, “Karen”, meant the breadmix kind of “dough”, the “undoubted” fount of wisdom that is the Urban Dictionary does list “doe” in definition 11 as


    So, credit where it’s not due… maybe.

    I should add that definition 11 also lists “doe” as

    2-An endearing term for a stupid person or dumbass

    Now I do feel “endearing” would be overstretching that definition’s application to “Karen”, but I think perhaps an exception can be made.

    And I, like others here, suspect “Karen” is not a “doe” in any sense of the contents of definition 7:

    A young beautiful female; often with intriguing inviting eyes…

    Did you know? The counterfeit variety of the slang dough is definitionally duff. And duff can actually be a dough (flour mix). [SOED] Ain’t the English language peculiar?

    … Which leads me on to…

    Anyway, “Karen” has duff/dough for brains whichever way you look at it, and I ain’t talking money.

  54. #54 Bernard J.
    September 13, 2012

    Comment by von Storch on Klimazwiebel is of interest, as he deep down admits that building bridges with these (ideological) pseudoskeptics is not really possible – but he’ll continue trying anyway.

    At some point in the very near future scientists have to stop engaging with the denialati as if they (the denialists) have any point. We’re long past the point where there is even a pretend reason to ‘debate’.

    For mine, the line in the sand will be AR5. After that any scientist lending any legitimacy to the contrarian inactivists, by engaging them as if there is any doubt about the fact of human-caused global warming/climate change, is doing a disservice to humanity.

  55. #55 Lionel A
    September 13, 2012

    de Freitus strikes again and gets a few slaps in the comments.

    But don’t despair Karen there is a numpty by the name of Ross Nixon who speaks your language, which is not idiom but idiotum easily spotted by such as:

    I see many of NZ’s warmist evangelists…

    Par for the course this one, Ross may as well have a sign on his forehead ‘Bigoted Ignoramus’.

    We have had global cooling for the past 10 years…

    Oh so that is why all that Arctic ice is melting oh but wait

    And why mention the Arctic’s slight ice reduction without mentioning the Antarctic’s larger ice increase over the last 30 years?

    Another whack-a-mole job here, Ross should get out more a trip to the far south would be advised.

  56. #56 Wow
    September 13, 2012

    “We have had global cooling for the past 10 years…”

    So what stopped the UHI effect? Or are we knocking down cities now..?

  57. #57 Lotharsson
    September 13, 2012

    Lewandowsky and Oberauer

    make denialist heads spin with a discussion of models…of mind. This is in the context of their educational (and frequently snarky) series of posts about that paper.

    I’ve been waiting for them to take on the presumption by many of their detractors that their survey results hinge on a small number of responses faked by “scammers”, if only because (a) the presumption clearly needs more justification than has been provided by the “skeptics” thus far, and (b) faked responses could just as easily skew the results the opposite way.

    From the article:

    Further evidence for Mr Monckton’s warmist mission to pose as scammer is provided by his public claim that NASA blew up its own satellite to prevent the climate hoax from being uncovered. This seems likely, given that NASA has had ample opportunity to hone its skills with the so-called “moon landing.” … We conclude that there is clear evidence that Mr Monckton is a warmist scammer trying to make climate denial look nuts.


  58. #58 Lotharsson
    September 13, 2012

    I guess it would help if I remembered the link.

  59. #59 FrankD
    September 13, 2012


    As in “plum duff” – it had never struck me before, but its quite interesting if etymology is your thing. There are many ways to pronounce -ough, and if you pronounce the bread precursor like “tough”, then of course you get…

    Since “duff” is also mouldering leaf litter, I’m not sure which definition you are using with regard to Karen’s cerebral capacity, but it seems almost any will fit …

  60. #60 FrankD
    September 13, 2012

    From Lothersson’s olink:

    “… it must be noted that climate “skeptic” Ian Plimer relies on Manuel’s bizarre theory, that the sun is largely composed of iron, in his principal work of fiction Heaven and Earth.

    Bam! Lewandowsky FTW!

  61. #61 Bernard J.
    September 13, 2012

    I’ve been watching Lewendowsky’s ongoing and excellent postings with much interest and amusement. He’s let the detractors hang themselves from their own very long ropes, and he’s nowhere finished yet.

    But so far I’ve seen no-one who’s attacked Lewendowsky’s paper either land a hit, or apologise for their Dunning-Kruger affectation. And that goes for both sides of the fence…

    As a trivial aside, poster Brad Keyes, with his “sensu lato” and “passim”, is obviously an acolyte of Monckton, which makes the latest thread at Lewendowsky’s all the more delightful. Stephan must be delighted at the quality of the data that’s piling in on his site, and elsewhere.

  62. #62 Bernard J.
    September 13, 2012

    To be clear, by “And that goes for both sides of the fence…” I’m referring to Stephan’s detractors on both sides of the climate change kerfuffle, and not to denialists versus Stephan.

  63. #63 bluegrue
    September 13, 2012

    @ Bernard J.

    I saw you looking for a scene from Dune over at Lewandowsky’s site. I felt a reply over there would have been way off-topic. You’ll find the relevant excerpt at my blog.

  64. #64 bill
    September 13, 2012

    Some of the (limited) criticism coming from ‘our’ side over there is a bit rich. For a start, where are these masses of ‘skeptics of good-will’ who might stand on the brink of reformation were it not for the Prof’s unkind mockery? Certainly not on the blogs, which is what this is all about.

    And Lewandowsky has been putting an exemplary amount of effort into actually meeting the challenges of his detractors – rather than adopting the selective deafness strategies of the handful of skeptic ‘scientists’, or the hand-waving and moving-on-to-the-next item in the Gish Gallop maneuvers of the likes of Monckton.

    And he’s clearly winning. I don’t think I’ve ever seen so many people fall over themselves for the chance to look stupid. And to demonstrate that they didn’t really read the paper in the first place.

    Expecting some species of saintly, restrained perfection from a man who is actually taking the time to respond to the small number of actually substantive issues raised by his aggressive – and often libelous – detractors is f’ing ridiculous; the worst form of tone-trolling.

    Put simply: there’s nowt wrong with ridiculing the ridiculous. Get over it.

  65. #65 bill
    September 14, 2012

    Speaking of ridiculing the ridiculous – Stefan Rahmstorf on the world-shaking revelations of that expert-for-all-seasons Fritz Vahrenholt. (Auto-translation slightly ropey, but you’ll get the idea.)

  66. #66 MikeH
    Where is the ice?
    September 14, 2012
    “Here, possibly only 50% of the sea is covered in ice. Yet the data is telling the scientists that there is continuous ice cover at this latitude.
    That’s why Julienne Stroeve, ice expert from NSIDC the folk expected to flag the record minimum ice extent record in a few days’ time – has been filming the ice conditions every few hours.”

  67. #67 rubiginosa
    September 14, 2012

    “And he’s clearly winning. I don’t think I’ve ever seen so many people fall over themselves for the chance to look stupid.”

    It really is a spectacle to behold:

  68. #68 Robert Murphy
    September 14, 2012

    The “Climate Realists” website has republished Bastardi’s claims about the “rapid recovery” of Arctic sea ice this month, along with his picture. Even after I pointed out the picture was not what he claimed it is, the site moderator yelled “Squirrel!!” and changed the subject, but the picture still stands. They really don’t care if it’s correct or not, as long as it says what they want it to say.

  69. #69 Lionel A
    September 14, 2012

    I am having trouble with a page at Climate Progress:

    Decades Of Deception: The Coal Industry Has Advertised ‘Clean Coal’ Since At Least 1921

    All I see is a black blank pane and an tab indicator (Firefox):

    (GIF Image 1×1 pixels)

    There appears to have been two replies to this article. So what is afoot.

    I seem to have recent comments get held up in moderation for no apparent reason too and I am only being helpful to Mike Roddy with his ‘Frozen Planet’ planet problem.

    Ho! Hum!

  70. #70 Marco
    September 14, 2012

    Try Internet Explorer, Lionel.

  71. #71 Robert Murphy
    September 14, 2012

    I’ve been having a lot of trouble posting here; it says it’s posting then nothing happens. Firefox too; I’d hate to have to use IE. Let’s see if it works now…

  72. #72 Robert Murphy
    September 14, 2012

    OK, the above worked, but when I tried to post an earlier post that didn’t go through (with changes so it wouldn’t look like an exact duplicate), it didn’t work. I’ll try from scratch.
    “Climate Realists” is pushing Bastardi’s claims that Arctic sea ice has made a big recovery this month, and they don’t care that the picture he’s using is of sea surface temps not ice.

    {Edit: I tried posting the above with a link to the Climate Realists page and it didn’t go through. Let’s see if the link is what was stopping it…]

  73. #73 Robert Murphy
    September 14, 2012

    OK, I can’t post links. That sucks.

  74. #74 Wow
    September 14, 2012

    A 1×1 GIF is called a bug. Like a bug used by spies to track you.

    Marketers don’t like to stop abusing your trust and therefore try desperately to track you, else they lose any semblance of utility.

    (Robert, two links generally will not go through. Try one at a time).

  75. #75 FrankD
    September 14, 2012

    bill, thats a wheeze – Herr Doktor Rahmstorf is a lot sarkier in his native tongue.

    “Until now it was assumed that Venice is between 9 and 12 Century developed into a city-state and a major maritime power…”


  76. #76 Robert Murphy
    September 14, 2012

    “Robert, two links generally will not go through. Try one at a time”

    I was only posting one. I switched to IE but still no go. My knowledge of computers mostly ends with “Press button turns on machine, makes computer go.” Maybe I need to make a sacrifice to the Internet Gods to appease them.

  77. #77 bill
    September 14, 2012

    There are no less than 14 scripts running on Think Progress / Climate Progress(!), and I note I’ve had to allow all but 3 of them over time to get the bloody site to work!

    I’ve not had any recent problems here or anywhere else in FF. Is it all updated? I’m running NoScript and Adblock constantly – I’m also constantly alarmed if I do use IE to see all the crap I’m missing out on accordingly. But sometimes if a site really won’t load properly in FF…

  78. #78 Bernard J.
    September 14, 2012

    I’ve already done so on his blog, but I’d like to thank Bluegrue (September 13, 10:15 pm) for his posting of the quote I asked about at Lewendowsky’s.

    It’s an itch I’ve been trying to scratch for a while, and I’m so pleased to have the answer! It was the mid 80s when I read the book, so my recollection of the phrasing was sufficiently out that I couldn’t hit it with a search.

    And for those of you who’ve been hiding under a rock and haven’t read Dune, try it. It’s a bit of a paperweight (boom tish) but worth the effort. At least, I thought so.

    The movie, not so much. Although the director’s cut makes much more sense…

  79. #79 Lionel A
    September 14, 2012

    Try Internet Exploder – no way.

    As for 1×1 GIFs I used to use them as padding or something in the old days of mandraulic html creation. Not so bad once you have a set of templates that can be adjusted. But then that was all before CSS etc. I like the basic nuts & bolts approach because then you know that there isn’t anything else going on which was certainly not the case with MS FrontPage – always a good laugh to use the Tools>Web Devolper>Page Source feature and see who has used FP and note all the extra verbiage at the top of doc.

    My site was started in those good ol’ days and I see little reason to change as most of it still loads fast enough for a dial-up modem.

  80. #80 Wow
    September 14, 2012

    Oh dear, Lionel.

    You seem to have this internet thing and especially HTML all wrong.

    You are using the web page as if it were a poster. You’re defining the size, defining how it will be read and on what physical size too.

    HTML and the internet do not work this way.

    You give meta information on the meaning of the content and the browser displays it AS THE VIEWER SEES FIT. If they want to view it as ASCII text (necessary for the blind who will use text-to-speech), if they want to view it with 20pt font (as the visually imparied will) or on a screen 2 inches wide (as someone on a mobile phone will), they will request the browser show the content and stuff your demands for pixel accuracy.

    If you want pixel accuracy, make a PDF.

    But if you think for one second you should be telling the viewer how they must view “your” content, get a different job.

    (abuse of web page and viewers really grabs my wagger, you may be able to tell)

  81. #81 Lionel A
    September 14, 2012

    Robert Murphey

    I’ve been having a lot of trouble posting here; it says it’s posting then nothing happens. Firefox too; I’d hate to have to use IE. Let’s see if it works now…

    Could it be your internet connectivity? If that is a possibility look out a bit of software called PingPlotter which is a kinda Traceroute with bells and whistles. It can be used to plot latency and drop outs across nodes and keep a record from which is displayed a graphical read out which looks like this one from a time when I was having trouble with my provider– I had the evidence to beat them with. The software runs in the background with an icon in the Tray from whence the graphic display – still active – can be called up at a click.

  82. #82 Lionel A
    September 14, 2012

    Maybe, maybe not.

    Practices change over time, if you pick up a book on HTML from about 14 years ago (I have one here 1996) you will discover a different world.

    I do know that things have moved on and frankly after a double heart attack 11 years ago I just carried on in the same vein. I am too old and tired to make sorting this a priority. Besides the OS that I used to start off (Hint not any form of Windows) is now moribund, that computer is kaput along with the HTML editors I used then.

    So WOW I don’t have it all wrong you just didn’t know the history.

  83. #83 Lionel A
    September 14, 2012

    PS Wow.

    As for getting a different job I am retired and have mobility issues. You need a new attitude.

  84. #84 Wow
    September 14, 2012

    No, if that 14 year old book is going on about absolute placement, they’re not talking Web. They’re talking old-school designers who had a poster and placed every single spot precisely.

    Since you do not control the viewer nor the device the page is being viewed on, if you are using HTML and web pages to replicate PRECISE placement, Ur Doin It Wrong.

    NEVER was HTML nor the Web intended to dictate the viewer’s interpretation. NEVER was it intended that the designer have pixel perfect placement. It is antitheical to the entire structure. It isn’t a damn book or poster. You don’t know of the page is going to be viewed in 640×680, 1024×768 or 1960×1080, nor on a screen 2″ across or 20ft across.

    The HTML is markup. It is ONLY a hint. the HTML renderer has final word about what it will do and it WILL disregard your requests.

    The same old-school printer designer that wanted to force the web to ape the poster world demanded pixel placement and, in being told to eff off, brought on the abomination that is Flash.

    HTML5 doesn’t change a thing. YOUR web page can ONLY hint at what you want. The renderer can display it however they want, because only the rendered can tell what your page is being rendered on.

  85. #85 Wow
    September 14, 2012

    *I* need a new attitude? WTF???

    So your demand that you get pixel perfect rendition on YOUR PC and “eff you” to the person you’re *supposed* to be informing who may have nothing like your system is because of ME???

    Jesus christ, you have a massive sense of entitlement there, and playing the gimp card there isn’t going to make you any less wrong.

  86. #86 Lionel A
    September 14, 2012

    Wow. You are not listening.

    In the bad old days no two browsers would display a page the same even if the html was perfect because of quirks in the systems and so techniques were developed to overcome this. And let us not go into the area of Javascript and J-Script – another can of worms thanks to the would be dominance of a certain outfit in the shadows of the Cascades.

    Sure things are different now with a plethora of devices that are web enabled and to be honest I have neither the time nor money, or need for that matter, to use these later devices.

    I have been exploring what tools are available to enable me to convert my site to later standards but one I had been using for years which started out as a vector graphic application and morphed into a very capable graphic creator which could handle both vector and raster (well you know what I mean – not strictly black and white) had web creation extensions built on. I tried this but all I could get was porridge.

    Now you have your view of this world but don’t fly at people for having other ideas based upon how the world works for them. This is where you need a new attitude.

    Now further discussion on this best be taken to email. I am sure a person of your calibre would know where to go next.

  87. #87 Wow
    September 14, 2012

    Lionel, YOU aren’t listening.

    If you’re tring to be a web designer but are being a poster artist, YOU SHOULD BE PRODUCING POSTERS, NOT WEBPAGES.

    Got it?

    HTML WAS NEVER to be displaying two web pages the exact same.

    A header for one person might be *bold*. Another might have it in BIGGER FONT.

    The Acid test isn’t to test your web page renders pixel perfect, it’s to show that the HTML renderer obeys the standard when told to.

    Really, you are the entire reason web pages spend 25 years being absolutely crap because you were treating them like they were the old technology of paper and ink you were used to using as designers.

    Everything, to you, was the same old nail you hammered in before.

  88. #88 joni
    September 14, 2012


    If what I have heard is true – so sorry.

  89. #89 Lionel A
    September 14, 2012

    No Wow, you are not listening.

    I do appreciate how things should now be done.

    Fini. On here anyway.

  90. #90 Wow
    September 14, 2012

    No, I listened. It was BS.

    “having other ideas based upon how the world works for them”

    Clue tip for you: if you’re a web designer, you are not supposed to write a web page designed for YOU, YOU are not the customer.

    And if you’re using HTML and demand pixel perfect positioning, ur doin it wrong. End of story.

    You can hammer a nail in with a spoon, but you’re doing it wrong there too.

    You can get splinters out of your finger with a stanley knife. Guess what: wrong again.

    Why is it wrong to do what you insist on doing? Because you do not and should not demand that someone looks at your web page on specific equipment.

    “Best viewed at 800×600” or “Designed for Internet Explorer” held back the web for abled and disabled alike for well over 10 years.

    Because web designers thought they saw a nail.

  91. #91 bill
    September 14, 2012

    I have to say it: I also used ‘1×1 GIFs …as padding or something in the old days of mandraulic html creation.’

    I don’t believe this is because of any inherent fascism in my approach to design, but it’s because it’s how the world used to work back in the days I was running a site aimed at chucking mining company number one out of a National Park. Tables – and it was all tables pre-CSS and flash – used to collapse without them; in fact, the old Macromedia Dreamweaver used to insert them by default. Which was a relief.

    (And Frontpage – my first theoretical WYSIWYG editor – was, indeed, a dog’s breakfast that wrote awful code!)

    Therefore I find this lecture directed at Lionel, who was merely recounting his own – not atypical – experiences, to be totally misplaced. I cannot imagine how the leap was made to concluding Lionel’s worldview – late alone such a negative one – and attitude to ‘customers’ from this short passage.

    I also find this tendency to stridently defensive outbursts to be totally misplaced. It’s bad enough that it doesn’t seem, unfortunately, that we can hope to have Tim actively here anymore to supervise; this is the kind of thing that will turn people off from the site. In fact, it probably is doing so.

  92. #92 el gordo
    September 15, 2012

    ‘There are no less than 14 scripts running on Think Progress / Climate Progress(!), and I note I’ve had to allow all but 3 of them over time to get the bloody site to work!’

    Could you elaborate?

  93. #93 Wow
    September 15, 2012

    “I don’t believe this is because of any inherent fascism in my approach to design”

    Its valid design.

    It’s INVALID in HTML. Unless you are going to go round everyone’s home and buy them the same monitor you have, you CANNOT make it pixel perfect. Heck, even then, you won’t manage with those with disabilities.

    Those design paradigms are useful for non-web print work and intranet (where you have bought the kit for everyone, though it’s still damn pointless since you shouldn’t be demanding pixel perfect positioning anyway. If your work requires it, you need to redesign).

    But your fixation on THE WRONG METHOD merely because you thought in old-school ways is why you don’t like the lecture.

    Web isn’t print.

    You’re like the steampunk people putting paddle steamer paddles on the back of flying boats because it makes it look victoriana. An engineer would look at it and go “Are you frigging MAD!!!”.

  94. #94 bill
    September 15, 2012

    el gordo – i have NoScript. It tells me how many sites are running processes on any given page. Only 5 on this one – 17 scripts – but I’m rather wary of doubleclick and I see no need to allow addthis. TP is 14 sites (including the host) to be more accurate, all but 3 of which I’ve had to allow to get video etc. to work over time, and 52 scripts.

    wow – i’m not talking about web design, i’m talking about inappropriate assumptions and an even more inappropriate manner

  95. #95 Wow
    September 15, 2012

    bill, that’s what I’ve been complaining about!

    Inappropriate assumptions (pixel perfect placement) and an inappropriate manner (“how it works for me”).

    Graphic designers becoming web designers but NOT throwing away the inappropriate “lets treat this as a poster” meme is why web for the disabled has been held back for 15 years at least.

  96. #96 Lionel A
    September 15, 2012

    Unless you are going to go round everyone’s home and buy them the same monitor you have,..

    That is the very point my dear chap.

    When I started back in about 1994-95 the only way of viewing web pages was using a desktop computer with a CRT monitor. The LCD (lowest common denominator) portables would not have had the wherewithal to use a dial-up connection. Heck I still have one like that here that runs MSDos and Wordstar etc in text only modes.

    And those CRT monitors were generally small with 800 x 600 resolutions, thus web browsers such as they were kept pages to be displayed in totto at those resolutions and didn’t even support Tables let alone frames and CSS.

    Also constructing web pages for many using such monitors and connecting via dial-up modems necessitated lean code and small file sizes for any images. I was lucky enough to be using a Sportster 28k8 modem when many were using 14k4 or slower – particularly in schools. Oh and BTW I was using a computer system which was the first to be based on the ARM chipset.

    Furthermore mobile devices and Brail readers were way in the future, and the former were as rare as rocking horse droppings for a long time. Besides my website was intended as a vehicle for images, where Brail is less useful, with the barest of explanatory text.

    I am sorry that I had a life changing experience which has created for me issues in keeping up with the times and caused you so much angst.

    I am fully aware of shortcomings under today’s conditions and have been taking steps to try to rectify this. But I have yet to find a satisfactory path for re-designing my existing site, created under very different conditions and for a very different technological playing field, considering the constrictions of my life where I am unsure that I will be able to wake up the next day.

    Now if you still cannot grasp this the sadly there is little more I can do.

  97. #97 Lotharsson
    September 15, 2012

    Wow might wish to ponder the concept that padding != pixel-perfect placement, and hence that on occasion (at least in the past if not the present) valid reasons may exist to use the former whilst not seeking to achieve the latter.

  98. #98 FrankD
    September 15, 2012

    “I am sorry that I had a life changing experience which has created for me issues in keeping up with the times and caused you so much angst.”

    Don’t be sorry, Lionel. These days it seems a thread isn’t complete unless Wow’s gone all ALLCAPS!!1!! at someone. Last month was Ianam, this month its you*. Personally, I usually find it impossible to discern a point through the quantity of bile vented…

    *Oh, yeah..3…2…1…

  99. #99 Wow
    September 15, 2012

    Yeah frank. ALLCAPS. Bollocks.

  100. #100 Wow
    September 15, 2012

    “padding != pixel-perfect placement”

    1x1Gif. That’s one pixel, right? Now, either you wanted pixel perfect positioning or you’re using it as a web bug. Neither of which make you anything other than a stain on web development.

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