August 2013 Open thread

More thread.

Comments

  1. #1 Lotharsson
    August 3, 2013

    I find it interesting that el gordo cites Hansen as an authority at #80, but doesn’t seem to realise that what Hansen says in that quote undermines el gordo’s interpretation of the recent surface temperature record and what it means for the future.

    It’s an interesting kind of cherry picking…either that, or not being smart enough/willing enough to understand the implications.

  2. #2 el gordo
    August 3, 2013

    In other nooze, they found the missing heat and it was in the ocean after all. Or at least it explains why the ice is thin in that area, with a ridge of active volcanoes underneath.

    http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/svalbard_volcanoes1.jpg?w=640&h=479

  3. #3 Lotharsson
    August 3, 2013

    You may not be aware that the Chinese are setting up agricultural enterprises in Africa and Australia…. this is their Plan B for climate change.

    Yes, I’m aware of it. It undermines your argument. Their plan is not to feed the globe, but to monopolise agricultural output in regions they hope will compensate for the insufficient levels of output from their own, in order to feed themselves.

    And none of those plans demonstrates how agriculture can increase global productivity by (say) 50% to feed 50% more people under climatic conditions that are much more unpredictable and hence introduce significant volatility into productivity levels, significantly more aggressive pests and diseases, and shift climatic zones without shifting the underlying soils.

    …do try and keep up.

    Remember folks, it’s always projection.

  4. #4 Lotharsson
    August 3, 2013

    Looking further down the track, with the help of the paleo team, we can see the MWP was slightly warmer than now.

    Is el gordo a pathological liar, or merely deeply gullible, completely unable to read a graph and simply cannot comprehend the concept of basic fact-checking?

    Firstly, that graph only goes up to 1935. Temperatures now are quite a lot higher now (Fig. 2). (That article also claims that Loehle recognises that his peak at ~850 A.D. is probably incorrect, and that’s the highest temperature in the reconstruction.) Alternatively, even if you use a 29 year average of the instrumental data, it’s still warmer now (see Fig. 3). And note comment #5:

    But even [Loehle] does comment on this at the end of his paper and states that current temps (being 1992 for the smoothed average) are 0.7C [corrected to 0.07C in comment #7] higher than his MWP temps.

    And Loehle’s reconstruction is one of the warmest out there around that period, and it’s quite a bit warmer now than 1992…

    So, yet another cited authority undermines your claims, el gordo. It’s quite a habit. Have you wondered why it keeps happening to you? (Let alone why you keep bringing up the MWP as if it’s somehow relevant to what will happen if we go about business as usual?)

  5. #5 Lotharsson
    August 3, 2013

    Keep in mind the amazing strides humanity has made over the past 200 years in technological advancement. The tyranny of distance will soon be a thing of the past.

    That’s idiotic. “The tyranny of distance” isn’t remotely the problem here. It’s the ecosystem issues that you’ve been given copious information on and have studiously ignored.

    Imagine the top end of Australia covered in agriculture…

    A utopian fantasy that experts think is unrealistic and deeply foolish.

    If all it takes is imagination, then imagine that I have a magic wand that could just magic away excess CO2. Much simpler solution, so give up on yours and start backing mine, please.

  6. #6 Lotharsson
    August 3, 2013

    …they found the missing heat … a ridge of active volcanoes underneath.

    In which el gordo proves his incompetence to discuss these topics, as he doesn’t even know what “the missing heat” referred to.

    Or at least it explains why the ice is thin in that area, with a ridge of active volcanoes underneath.

    It would only explain it if there was evidence that they had increased their heat output in the right quantity and timing to explain the ice changes, and the resulting heat output explains the geographical distribution of ice changes. I’m sure there’s a peer-reviewed paper somewhere that does all the hard work of attribution, right?

    Right?

  7. #7 Lotharsson
    August 3, 2013

    Sea ice back to average parameters.

    Your own link calls you a liar.

    Again.

    Didn’t fat Al say the Arctic would be ice free by now?

    Not as far as I’m aware, but I don’t follow his speeches.

    I suspect you’re lying via misrepresentation again. I’d bet good money if you bothered to check you’d find out your implied claim isn’t accurate. Let’s face it, you’ve got an excellent track record of inaccuracy…

  8. #8 el gordo
    August 3, 2013

    “These figures are fresh. Some of the models suggest to Dr [Wieslav] Maslowski that there is a 75 per cent chance that the entire north polar ice cap, during the summer months, could be completely ice-free within five to seven years.”

    Al Gore 2009

  9. #9 el gordo
    August 3, 2013

    ‘And none of those plans demonstrates how agriculture can increase global productivity…’

    Humanity is making progress in agricultural production, aided by science, so on a supply and demand basis it should work fine.

  10. #10 el gordo
    August 3, 2013

    ‘It’s the ecosystem issues that you’ve been given copious information on and have studiously ignored.’

    Because its pure nonsense, the cane toad is more a problem than any perceived man made disaster on the horizon.

  11. #11 el gordo
    August 3, 2013

    ‘And Loehle’s reconstruction is one of the warmest out there around that period, and it’s quite a bit warmer now than 1992…’

    Hockey Sticks

  12. #12 bill
    August 3, 2013

    For those suitably sick of the sofa-sized sophist, Tamino discusses the nature of ‘proof’, the latest canard that the bloated cynicosphere – hacks, if you will – pretends to believe connotes something, knowing all the while that the slaverers will slaver away…

    I look forward to the day that Heartland’s assets are seized to pay the fines and court costs.

  13. #13 el gordo
    August 3, 2013

    ‘It would only explain it if there was evidence that they had increased their heat output in the right quantity and timing to explain the ice changes, and the resulting heat output explains the geographical distribution of ice changes.’

    True, I’ll leave you to look for that paper. In the meantime here’s a bit of light reading on the subject.

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/06/080626-arctic-volcano.html

  14. #14 Lotharsson
    August 3, 2013

    Some of the models suggest to Dr [Wieslav] Maslowski that there is a 75 per cent chance that the entire north polar ice cap, during the summer months, could be completely ice-free within five to seven years.

    Readers who understand (say) grade 10 level English will note this is a different claim from the one that el gordo tried to put in Gore’s mouth in his earlier comment.

    Since el gordo doesn’t seem to read at that level, here are a couple of points:

    1) The time period is wrong. 2014-2016 is not the same as 2013.

    2) The level of certainty is wrong – a 75% chance is not the same as “would be”.

    See? I was right – you were misrepresenting again.

    (And at a meta level, you were trying to distract from the negative impacts of the waning ice for your pet theories…)

  15. #15 Lotharsson
    August 3, 2013

    Humanity is making progress in agricultural production, aided by science, so on a supply and demand basis it should work fine.

    It’s making progress in some areas, and progress is slowing dramatically in others. And that’s happening already, without the full challenges of climate change being realised.

    You’re apparently choosing in this matter to extrapolate existing curves forward with no good reason to do so – research breakthroughs, and especially their timing, cannot be reliably predicted – but you choose not to apply the same methodology to other issues such as the effects of the ongoing radiative imbalance or the arctic ice volume decline or the worldwide species extinction rate or … (presumably because if you did you would undercut your happy fantasies).

    I’ll leave you to look for that paper.

    LOL! Of course you will!

    You’re not in the business of assessing the evidence and drawing robust conclusions from it, you’re in the business of promoting happy fantasies and at best cherry-picked data points that suggest that if one is really lucky, your fantasies will this time actually be justified by looking at the totality of evidence. So instead of conceding or attempting to justify your claim you’ll simply Gish Gallop to the next point.

    What I’m curious about is this: who do you think you are fooling (other than yourself)? You’ve been exposed here by several different commenters as a thoroughly reliable source of false claims and disingenuousness, so it’s not like you’ve much chance of fooling most of the regular readers.

  16. #16 el gordo
    August 3, 2013

    ‘You’ve been exposed here by several different commenters’

    Their thuggish behaviour is an indictment of their mental state and I’m not intimidated.

  17. #17 el gordo
    August 3, 2013

    Here is a little more on the area in question.

    http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/CET-NV.htm

  18. #18 el gordo
    August 3, 2013

    (AFP) – Jun 25, 2008

    PARIS (AFP) — ‘Recent massive volcanoes have risen from the ocean floor deep under the Arctic ice cap, spewing plumes of fragmented magma into the sea, scientists who filmed the aftermath reported Wednesday.

    ‘The eruptions — as big as the one that buried Pompei — took place in 1999 along the Gakkel Ridge, an underwater mountain chain snaking 1,800 kilometres (1,100 miles) from the northern tip of Greenland to Siberia.

    ‘Scientists suspected even at the time that a simultaneous series of earthquakes were linked to these volcanic spasms.
    But when a team led of scientists led by Robert Sohn of the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution in Massachusetts finally got a first-ever glimpse of the ocean floor 4,000 meters (13,000 feet) beneath the Arctic pack ice, they were astonished.

    ‘What they saw was unmistakable evidence of explosive eruptions rather than the gradual secretion of lava bubbling up from Earth’s mantle onto the ocean floor.

    ‘Previous research had concluded that this kind of so-called pyroclastic eruption could not happen at such depths due to the crushing pressure of the water.’

  19. #19 Lotharsson
    August 3, 2013

    Their thuggish behaviour …

    So they threatened to … what, beat you up? No? Oh, you mean they disagreed with you and justified their points with evidence and concluded that you were promulgating bullshit?

    So you didn’t actually mean “thuggish” – that was another misrepresentation?

    http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/CET-NV.htm</blockquote.

    Oh, please! Vukcevic is an even bigger crank than you appear to be. He sees pseudo-cycles everywhere and apparently hasn't met a crank theory he doesn't like. Once you start citing him it's time to go get professional help.

  20. #20 Lotharsson
    August 3, 2013

    Blockquote fail.

  21. #21 Lionel A
    August 3, 2013

    e g really needs to start paying attention to the reality of the problem if he thinks we can simply adapt, for he is wrong on so many levels. I figure that he is being paid to ‘not see the truth’ and to try to ‘ensure that others’ are confused.

  22. #22 Lionel A
    August 3, 2013

    More reality for the reality challenged el gordo, Sea Level Rise ‘Locking In’ Quickly, Cities Threatened now consider what I wrote in this post here which I’ll bet you didn’t bother reading. Now by reading I mean reading to understand and think more deeply than the standard of your recent posts history of posts suggests.

  23. #23 BBD
    August 3, 2013

    el gordo

    Arctic ice melt is nothing to do with submarine volcanism on Gakkel ridge so you can shelve this denier misrepresentation now and we can move on to the next one.

    When someone is forced to resort – time and time again – to misrepresentation, it demonstrates that they have no argument.

    You go even further by demonstrating that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Your errors on the previous thread were too fundamental for you ever to be taken seriously here.

    It’s slightly amazing that you need to have this pointed out to you, but here you are, still blethering nonsense, so it has to be said out loud.

  24. #24 Lionel A
    August 3, 2013

    And here is a reminder of how warmer conditions may not be beneficial. Have you been invaded already el gordo?

  25. #25 Ian Forrester
    August 3, 2013

    Lionel, el gordo is perfectly safe from these organisms. They only eat brains and e g has shown us over and over again that he is, in in fact, brainless. These organisms would starve to death if they got inside his head.

  26. #26 BBD
    August 3, 2013

    The surreal thing about blog “discussion” of climate science is that a participant can demonstrate, unequivocally, that they don’t understand the basics at all and then run away from that humiliation and just carry on on another thread as though nothing had happened.

    This is not how real life works. In real life, when you have made a terminal arse of yourself, that’s it. Party’s over. Time to go.

    Here in climate la-la land the clueless buffoons just keep on blabbering away as if they actually had some topic knowledge and an argument. There’s no acknowledgement of the gross errors, no apology for being a dickhead know-nothing time-wasting arsehole of a serial liar, and very definitely no fucking shame.

    Quite frankly, I’m getting a bit sick of it.

  27. #27 BBD
    August 3, 2013

    Their thuggish behaviour is an indictment of their mental state and I’m not intimidated.

    I mean just *look* at this prat. He lies and spouts the most unutterable nonsense despite incessant correction by everybody else here. After a while, we get irritated by this mix of intellectual dishonesty and refusal to acknowledge error. We call a spade a spade, or in this case, a lying toe rag.

    This isn’t thuggery. This is exasperation at serial and persistent dishonesty and complete lack of topic knowledge.

    Then el fatuous blares that he isn’t “intimidated”, completely missing the point that intimidation is not the intent.

    Education is the intent. What el fatuous *should* have said is “I’m not educated”. That, at least, would be true.

    The “indictment” of a mental state here is of yours, el fatuous. Yours. But as Lotharsson corrects out, with you lot it’s always projection. Always. It really is a fundamental part of the pathology of denial.

  28. #28 Lionel A
    August 3, 2013

    Ian @ #25. Yes. I had included some words to that effect but then deleted them on thinking that one should not be cruel to dumb animals.

  29. #29 adelady
    August 3, 2013

    Sea ice back to average parameters.

    http://www.ijis.iarc.uaf.edu/en/home/seaice_extent.htm

    Whaaaat. Did you actually look at that graphic? If you can’t see it clearly I suggest blowing up the image on screen and carefully tracing each line identified in the legend with a pointer of some sort. Or print it and do the same.

    It shows without any confusion or overlapping or careful reading that this year’s ice melt is proceeding, since the beginning of July, entirely below the decadal averages for the 10 years of the 2000s. And nowhere near the 80s or 90s decade graphs.

    Average parameters? The only “back to average” feature of this year’s ice melt is that it’s just like the last few years – huge melt regardless of weather.

  30. #30 BBD
    August 3, 2013

    The prolifically ignorant and invariably wrong el fatuous strikes again:

    Looking further down the track, with the help of the paleo team, we can see the MWP was slightly warmer than now.

    No, it wasn’t.

    Loehle is bollocks.

    – There never was a global, synchronous MWP that was warmer than the present. That’s a denier myth:

    During the last 30-year period in the reconstructions (1971-2000 CE), the average reconstructed temperature among all of the regions was likely higher than anytime in at least ~1400 years. Interestingly, temperatures did not fluctuate uniformly among all regions at multi-decadal to centennial scales. For example, there were no globally synchronous multi-decadal warm or cold intervals that define a worldwide Medieval Warm Period or Little Ice Age.

    Everything you say is wrong and demonstrates absolute ignorance of the topic.

    You know nothing.

  31. #31 Lionel A
    August 3, 2013

    Here is a chart for el ignoranti to play with. What does the grey area tell you oh blighted one?

    Try ‘Show All’.

    Now do you get it?

    Maybe we should revisit this when September is out. What do you think is likely to happen by then?

  32. #32 Lionel A
    August 3, 2013

    Craig Loehle is of course a dahling of the Heartland boondoggle and on the radar of ExxonSecrets and Sourcewatch which you will discover el gordo if you visit the link leading this post.

  33. #33 BBD
    August 3, 2013

    More astonishing bollocks from Teh Gordo (I missed this on first reading back):

    Over short time spans of a decade its important to concentrate on trends and its been flat.

    No, that is completely wrong. Statistically significant trends cannot be extracted from short time-series. Moreover, given that natural variability (in this case of ocean heat uptake) modulates GAT over the shorter term and the forced climate signal is evident only over the longer (multi-decadal) term, short time-series of tropospheric temperature data effectively tell us nothing at all. That’s the point of the SkS “escalator” graph that you are either too stupid or too dishonest (or both) to understand.

  34. #34 Lionel A
    August 3, 2013

    el gordo

    Hockey Sticks

    You really don’t get out much do you. Here try this The Montford Delusion and then watch McIntyre writhe here Yamal and Polar Urals: a research update.

    Then of course there is always the Wegman trail thanks to DeepClimate and John Mashey.

    Those with time to spare may have fun following ‘The Borehole’ at RealClimate described thus ‘A place for comments that would otherwise disrupt sensible conversations‘. I wonder how many of our numpty brigade turn up in there.

  35. #35 mike
    August 3, 2013

    hey bill!

    @the whole of your commentary on this post

    You wanna know what I like best about you, bill? Well, bill, ol’ sport, I’m gonna inform you anyway–asshole!

    What I like best about you, bill, is that your comments all derive from that noxious reservoir of pea-brain, useful-retard, hive-implanted, B. S., agit-prop “ideations” of yours that are, in turn, wholly contained within that mental Deltoid-space of yours that is your exclusive, Pavlovian, conditioned-reflex, servile-toady, party-line, fantasy habitat, that is, again, in turn, bounded by your three, equilateral, core competencies: a mouth-off, whiny-geek, tag-along pest, “me-too!”, suck-up, mummy’s-precious-pet, spoiled-brat, cry-baby, attention-seeking, obnoxious-jerk, spastic-dork, personal-hygiene challenged, creep-out repulsiveness; zit-popping; and a dextrous, virtuoso mastery of a certain filthy habit that’s gonna get your pee-pee slapped silly if momma ever catches you at it!

    That’s what I like best about you, bill. I mean, like, don’t change a thing, bill, you’re just perfect as you are. And, please, bill, don’t ever, even once, so much as think about entertaining an original thought, O. K.?–you little eco-shit!

  36. #36 Lionel A
    August 3, 2013

    Oh look. Somebody just seeded a ‘buzz-phrase generator’ for retards and look what flooded out!

  37. #37 el gordo
    August 3, 2013

    Lionel, from your link…

    ‘Over the next century, plants and animals on land might be in for a wild and ultimately devastating ride.’

    On the flimsy evidence available, I don’t believe its possible to make a prediction 100 years in advance.

  38. #38 el gordo
    August 3, 2013

    And the second link on SLR….

    ‘To begin with, it appears that the amount of carbon pollution to date has already locked in more than 4 feet of sea level rise past today’s levels.’

    In another five years, with ‘carbon pollution’ having reached the heights undreamt of in your vocabulary, temperatures will still be flat along with sea level.

    You are full of fear and loathing for something that may happen a long time after you have been beamed up. Stop spreading lies about a harmless trace gas.

  39. #39 el gordo
    August 3, 2013

    ‘Arctic ice melt is nothing to do with submarine volcanism on Gakkel ridge’

    Do you have a link to back that statement?

  40. #40 Turboblocke
    August 3, 2013

    The 50 million refugees was not a UN figure. See here http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/un_50million_11kap9climat.png and here http://www.grida.no/general/4700.aspx

    The Grida site is not part of the UNEP and produces its own reports.

  41. #41 el gordo
    August 3, 2013

    Oh, right. Sort of an attachment.

  42. #42 el gordo
    August 3, 2013

    ‘You really don’t get out much do you.’

    More than you and present a holistic version of delusion ….with which you will all agree.

    http://www.climateaccess.org/sites/default/files/Breakthrough_Climate%20Solutions%20for%20a%20stronger%20America.pdf

  43. #43 el gordo
    August 3, 2013

    “We have to offer up scary scenarios… each of us has to decide the right balance between being effective and being honest.”
    Steven Schneider 1989 (IPCC leading author)

    “Unless we announce disasters no one will listen.”
    Sir John Houghton, ex ipcc chair

    “The only way to get our society to truly change is to frighten people with the possibility of a catastrophe.”
    Daniel Botkin, UCSB

    “We’ve got to ride the global warming issue. Even if the theory of global warming is wrong, we will be doing the right thing.”
    Tim Wirth 1993

  44. #45 BBD
    August 3, 2013

    #39

    Do you have a link to back that statement?

    Of course:

    Beszczynska-Möller et al. (2011), A Synthesis of Exchanges Through the Main Oceanic Gateways to the Arctic Ocean:

    In recent decades, the Arctic Ocean has changed dramatically. Exchanges through the main oceanic gateways indicate two main processes of global climatic importance—poleward oceanic heat flux into the Arctic Ocean and export of freshwater toward the North Atlantic. Since the 1990s, in particular during the International Polar Year (2007–2009), extensive observational efforts were undertaken to monitor volume, heat, and freshwater fluxes between the Arctic Ocean and the subpolar seas on scales from daily to multiyear. This paper reviews present-day estimates of oceanic fluxes and reports on technological advances and existing challenges in measuring exchanges through the main oceanic gateways to the Arctic.

    There’s a good overview here for sceptical readers.

    Now, do you have a published reference for your claim that explosive volcanism on the Gakkel Ridge is responsible for the observed, extremely rapid decline in summer Arctic sea ice extent?

    Please provide the link.

  45. #46 BBD
    August 3, 2013

    n another five years, with ‘carbon pollution’ having reached the heights undreamt of in your vocabulary, temperatures will still be flat along with sea level.

    Stop repeating nonsense.

    The troposphere ≠ the climate system

    You are ignoring OHC.

    The energy accumulation is there. The data show it.

    Sea level rise is continuing apace. The data show it.

    Look at the evidence and stop lying.

  46. #47 chek
    August 3, 2013

    BBD, you’re trying to reason with idiots are have less sensibilities than intelligent children.

    El Fatty lives in a world he’s quite content to have defined by partial quotes and denialist nonsense because that’s the level he lives at. Think of any Murdoch rag reading moron and the inbuilt expectations they’ve been programmed with, and you’ll realise that critical thinking isn’t what they do.

    You’re attempting to talk to the shepherd, but the tabloid fed sheep don’t know what the fuck you’re on about. You’re just using a lot of big words and references beyond their understanding.

    You are full of fear and loathing for something that may happen a long time after you have been beamed up. Stop spreading lies about a harmless trace gas.

    Short of a machine gun, how do you deal with that kind of supercilious ignorance and irresponsibility? I don’t think it can be done other than to ignore the cretins who have no influence anyway. Nobody in Gordon’s social circle gives a fuck what he thinks about climate change anyway..

  47. #48 el gordo
    August 4, 2013

    ‘Now, do you have a published reference for your claim that explosive volcanism on the Gakkel Ridge is responsible for the observed, extremely rapid decline in summer Arctic sea ice extent?’

    No, it was only recently discovered so nobody was searching for the noise in the signal.

    Returning to that National Geographic article I linked earlier…

    ‘Seismic activity was previously detected in the same region in 1999, along the Gakkel Ridge—a 1,200-mile-long (2,000-kilometer-long) mid-ocean mountain range north of Greenland.

    ‘Hundreds of earthquakes were observed over a nine-month period, with magnitudes between 4 and 6.

    ‘This earthquake swarm was the largest in recorded history along a spreading mid-ocean ridge and prompted researchers to return to the area for further investigation.’

    It might just be a coincidence that 1999 was about the time the alarmists started ranting the pole is melting.

  48. #49 chek
    August 4, 2013

    Unfortunately for your sub-Plimer conjecture, Arctic melting doesn’t correspond with your hare-brained Gakkal Ridge red herring.

    But no doubt you’ll continue in your customary believe-any-old-crap-no-matter-how-puerile fashion as you always have.
    Have you ever looked up the definition of autism, Gordon?

  49. #50 mike
    August 4, 2013

    Hey chek!

    Yr. no. 47–“Short of a machine gun…”

    Ah, yes, chek–machine guns, the hive’s trite, reflexive solution to disagreement (curious how you lefties are all for “gun control”, isn’t it, chek?).

    But for a party-line hack, slavishly-disciplined, hive-bozo good-comrade, like you, chek, you seem surprisingly uninformed with respect to the historical alternatives to the “machine gun”. Poison gas?–see the “Tambov Rebellion”. Mass starvation?–see the “Holodomor” and the “Great Leap Forward”. Blokhin and his trusty Tokarev?–see Lubyanka, “oldies-but-goodies” re-runs. Boat-people? Killing-fields? Kolyma? Re-education camps of various stripes? The list goes on and on.

    Jeez, chek, the alternative to “machine guns” is very nearly infinite–sounds like the hive is neglecting its “Young Pioneer” education duties. I mean, like, chek, there’s lots of ways to kill off class enemies, slackers, cosmopolitans, Bonapartists, kulaks, technocrats, adventurists, right-oppositionists, wreckers, left-oppositionists, bourgeois sentimentalists, decadent intellectuals, Jewish doctors etc.

    I mean, like, get with the program, chek!–you’re embarrassing your youth-masters (not to mention putting them at “show-trial” risk). Be a good sport. Act like you know what I’m talking about, chek.

  50. #51 Anthony David
    August 4, 2013

    “It might just be a coincidence that 1999 was about the time the alarmists started ranting the pole is melting.”

    Questions: In which principal direction does the the ocean currents move under the Arctic Ocean? In which season does the arctic melt happen? Answer them and you will take significant steps to resolving your conjecture.

  51. #52 chek
    August 4, 2013

    And when you’ve finished absorbing that, Gordon, perhaps your next half-baked mission can be explain how your ridge affects affects all that Antactic ablation 12.000 miles away,

  52. #53 el gordo
    August 4, 2013
  53. #54 el gordo
    August 4, 2013

    http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=7545&tid=3622&cid=69134

    Check out the map, the North Atlantic Current is having an immediate impact on East Greenland glacial melt. In the early 1940s the same melt was happening, so it looks like natural variability and has nothing to do with AGW.

    No signal, but plenty of noise for academics to sort.

  54. #55 Lotharsson
    August 4, 2013

    On the flimsy evidence available, I don’t believe its possible to make a prediction 100 years in advance.

    Ah, yes, the fallacy of argument from personal incredulity, apparently combined with the argument from personal ignorance and from personal incompetence. Triple bonus!

  55. #56 Bernard J.
    August 4, 2013

    I’ve been otherwise engaged and therefore late to this thread, but it wasn’t surprising to see that Fatso is still in the starting block when it comes to even pre-teen level comprehension.

    At #5 of page 1 he said:

    As I said, life on this planet is precarious. You are clutching at straws Craig

    in response to Craig saying:

    ‘How would our GDP like a 96% extinction of marine species, as has happened in the past?

    Fatso, you are confusing two very different concepts. As I have already told you life on Earth is generally not precarious. It takes a profoundly global catastrophe to affect the progress of life, and what we are seeing with global warming is an impact on the scale of a major stochastic event that causes a major extinction.

    Life for individuals is often precarious, but this is different from arguing about the precarious nature of life as a species, or as the life of an ecosystem. An average species lifetime is around a million years or more, and longer still for ecosystems. This is hardly representative of something that should make way for a new kid on the block just at that kid’s say-so. When humans affect the biosphere to the extent that entire ecosystems are suffering as a consequence of actions, rather than just individuals suffering in the red-in-tooth-and-claw drama, then something different to the usual drama of an individual’s (or even a species’) life is occurring.

    There is no direct scalar relationship betwen the life of an individual and that of a species. You are once again engaging in the logical fallacy of faulty generalisation – valid induction is not your thing, is it? What is showing through is your political inclination to look after yourself and damned be those who you have to step on to get your way.

    Then there’s the silliness at #7 of page 1:

    I remember seeing a terrific moving graph at SS which showed the break points where there is a pause in temperatures for around 30 years.

    No, Fatso. What you saw was the way in which denialists such as yourself use the noise around a signal to find a way to imagine flatness where none actually exists. It’s telling that even with the instruction inherent in the escalator graph you still don’t understand the point.

    Sorting out the ‘signal’ from the ‘noise’ is going to be tricky.

    Only for purveyors of your brand of pseudoscience who are trying to ignore the objective truth.

    The main thing to understand is that nothing unusual is happening with our climate and the warm weather of last century has been beneficial for the growth of humanity.

    “[N]othing unusual”?! When was the last time that the planet warmed from a mean global temperature of 14°C to around 20°C more more over the space of several centuries?

    And again, the logical fallacy. The growth of human society since the Industrial Revolution was based on the energy obtained from the use of fossil fuels, and not from the warmth that occurred as a result of the atmospheric impact of the carbon dioxide by-product.

    Obviously we have to wait 30 years to see a definite trend, but in the meantime it does appear to be flat.

    [Followed by:]

    Don’t know where they get the 16 years from, its closer to 13 years.

    Once more I will direct you to some pertinent questions and links, which would help to clear your ignorance if only you could understand them.

    And Fatso, you still haven’t told us where the heat is coming from that warmed the planet over the last 100 years. I’m especially interested to know given that in my corner of the world we’ve just had record daily maximum July temperatures, and our hottest overall July ever.

    You may not be aware that the Chinese are setting up agricultural enterprises in Africa and Australia…. this is their Plan B for climate change.

    [Followed by:]

    Keep in mind the amazing strides humanity has made over the past 200 years in technological advancement. The tyranny of distance will soon be a thing of the past.

    Imagine the top end of Australia covered in agriculture and feeding a world disrupted by climate change. Large satellite towns running on renewables and connected to anywhere in the country ….. very, very fast.

    How will this be fueled? Not with oil. With coal? How’s that going to affect the African and Australian climates? And aside from the issue of other, concurrent limitations, what of the geopolitical consequences?

    Have you actually thought this through?

    Sea ice back to average parameters.

    Idiot. Fool. Buffoon.

    Arctic sea ice volume is currently around 7 thousand cubic kilometres. Back in the 80s the August volume was a tad under 28 thousand cubic kilometres. A reduction to (at least) only 25% of pre-human melting is not “back to average parameters”.

    You are an ignoramus.

    And/or a lying propagandist.

    Pure and simple.

    You know, I’m bored now Fatso. I can’t be bothered to continue pointing out your errors. You’re (deliberately or otherwise) so scientifically inept that cleaning up after you is more onerous that mucking out a pig factory, and less useful. I suspect the only people here who actually swallow your shit are KarenMackSunspot and Olaus Petri, and they’re hardly stalwarts of intelligent comprehension.

  56. #57 Lotharsson
    August 4, 2013

    In another five years, with ‘carbon pollution’ having reached the heights undreamt of in your vocabulary, temperatures will still be flat along with sea level. … Stop spreading lies about a harmless trace gas.

    Well, well, what have we here then? El gordo has now abandoned any pretence at merely being merely unconvinced by the scientific case, and is now sure of his predictions (after having shifted the goalposts, despite being called on it several times) and sure that CO2 can’t possibly have any harmful effects, and is thus teetering on the edge of expressing full blown conspiratorial ideation.

    Hands up who saw that coming? ;-)

    And what is this “heights undreamt of” crap? Is it merely that he still can’t read a graph, like the ones in the most recent IPCC report with projections to way beyond the levels we will see in five years time, is it complete pig-ignorance, or does his denial now extend to even plain facts on paper?

    (I’d say the last few weeks have given us a very good picture of why he was sent to his own thread last time around.)

  57. #58 Karen
    August 4, 2013

    An obvious point that should be brought to the attention of the dumbtoids.

    Is the FACT that in all of the years that you all have been trying (and losing) to convince yourselves that CO2 is causing the planet to warm, IT HASN’T :) for SEVENTEEN YEARS lol

  58. #59 Lotharsson
    August 4, 2013

    Karen shills for attention in the Who’s The Dumbest Contrarian Here stakes.

    News at 11.

  59. #60 bill
    August 4, 2013

    SpamKan’s comment is not only a pointless restatement of a boring shibboleth, it lacks even internal logic. (HINT: who is it that is unconvinced, Spam Kan?)

    She is the Dumbest Contrarian Here, but competition is fierce…

  60. #61 Lotharsson
    August 4, 2013

    I would point out that a recent paper find that there’s been more warming in the last 15 years than the 15 years before that when you account for warming of the oceans, but that would blow Karen and el gordo’s tiny little minds (especially since both of them are absolutely determined not to notice the oceans).

    Aw, heck, they’re already blown so here it is.

  61. #62 Vince Whirlwind
    August 4, 2013

    that CO2 is causing the planet to warm, IT HASN’T :) for SEVENTEEN YEARS

    Where do you get that idea? Of course it has.

  62. #63 Vince Whirlwind
    August 4, 2013

    “Unless we announce disasters no one will listen.”
    Sir John Houghton, ex ipcc chair

    Fake quote. Repeated here by a credulous fool.

  63. #64 Karen
    August 4, 2013

    #60 Lotharsson

    so the greenhouse effect is now bypassing the troposphere and the sea surface ? Sure :)

    and……..the dubious OHC data tells us what? That the water temperature at 700 mtrs depth has risen by 0.0000002 o C ?
    Great stufffffffffff :)

    Sooo…..if this is true deary, how is 0.0000002 o C going to morph into a 2 or 4 deg C rise of the surface temperature ?

    You do realise that the Skeptical Science website is just satire, yes it owned and operated by a failed cartoonist sweety, lol

  64. #65 el gordo
    August 4, 2013

    And when they say the deep ocean temperature rise is ‘unprecedented’ you would have to ask how long this research has been going on?

  65. #66 el gordo
    August 4, 2013

    ‘Fake quote. Repeated here by a credulous fool.’

    Please yourself, the man is a fkn godbotherer and has apocalyptic visions.

    http://www.john-adams.co.uk/2010/02/15/is-god-trying-to-tell-us-something/

  66. #67 el gordo
    August 4, 2013

    On a lighter note, Fairfax has a story on climate change in its Entertainment section.

    Where it naturally belongs.

    http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/books/one-side-of-a-hot-issue-20130802-2r4ey.html

  67. #68 Marco
    August 4, 2013

    el gordo, that doesn’t change it was a fake quote. Can you for once admit you have been duped by your preferred sources?

  68. #69 chek
    August 4, 2013

    SpamKrank @ # 57.
    Nobody cares what you ‘believe’.

    On every monthly thread you do this same tired routine.
    You’re given the data and every month it goes over your head because you’re just too dumb to understand it as it conflicts with your preferred crankblog fairy stories.

    However that’s your problem alone, not anyone else’s.

  69. #70 Karen
    August 4, 2013

    “And when they say the deep ocean temperature rise is ‘unprecedented’ you would have to ask how long this research has been going on?”

    Hi el :)

    The ocean is a great place to hide the booooogie man….. lol

  70. #71 Karen
    August 4, 2013

    Hi chek, and every day/month you sound like a soggy franga, lol

  71. #72 Lotharsson
    August 4, 2013

    …so the greenhouse effect is now bypassing the troposphere and the sea surface…

    So desperate for attention she will post rank stupidity to get it.

    News at 11.

  72. #73 Lotharsson
    August 4, 2013

    Can you for once admit you have been duped by your preferred sources?

    To give him full credit – and I do mean full – he once admitted that his claim that there was no lake at the North Pole this year unlike last year was wrong, but only after being confronted with the live webcam feed (and much laughter).

    (But IIRC he didn’t admit that his sources were wrong, just the claim.)

  73. #74 chek
    August 4, 2013

    how is 0.0000002 o C going to morph into a 2 or 4 deg C rise of the surface temperature ?

    [citation needed]

  74. #75 bill
    August 4, 2013

    ‘soggy franga’? A new low…

    It’s like being taunted by yeast.

  75. #76 el gordo
    August 4, 2013

    Hello Karen… the old men’s shed is robust tonight.

  76. #77 chek
    August 4, 2013

    It’s like being taunted by yeast.

    I expect SpamKrank knows about that too.

  77. #78 el gordo
    August 4, 2013

    ‘but only after being confronted with the live webcam feed (and much laughter).’

    Yeah it was pretty funny picking the wrong camera, but I’m sure I’ll get over it.

  78. #79 adelady
    August 4, 2013

    so the greenhouse effect is now bypassing the troposphere and the sea surface ? Sure

    For the benefit of those who’ve not before seen this argument, it’s inside out and upside down.

    Radiation into the ocean is directly from the sun – that’s why all those divers and documentary makers can see and film corals and pretty fish so many metres under the surface. (And that’s why oceans absorb more heat – sunlight (radiation) doesn’t get past the surface of the soil whereas it penetrates 10s of metres into the ocean in many places.

    The greenhouse effect comes into play only when the surface radiates outwards – longwave invisible radiation, not at all like the visible radiation from the sun. Unsurprisingly, just like soil and buildings and everything else we’re familiar with, when the surroundings are warmer than before, soil, buildings and oceans stay warmer than they otherwise would have.

    Perhaps we should draw up a roster for who gets to do each new month’s version of each of the. same. old. answers.

  79. #80 bill
    August 4, 2013

    There’s an SkS page devoted to each of their old saws anyway.

  80. #81 FrankD
    August 4, 2013

    @Karen: “0.0000002 o C”

    Its preety simple maths, but she still manages to be out by about 5 orders of magnitude. About par for the Dumbest Contrarian on the Thread.

    Is it time to recite (again!) all the maths crimes committed by Karen?

  81. #82 Lotharsson
    August 4, 2013

    …she still manages to be out by about 5 orders of magnitude.

    Perhaps it’s SIMISS: the “Saying It Makes It So Syndrome” that many denialists suffer from. They say what they wish were true for whatever purpose they have at the time, and then proceed as if they can rely on it in their “argument” merely because they said it.

  82. #83 BBD
    August 4, 2013

    Stupid non-argument by unreferenced assertion. Not worth shit:

    No, it was only recently discovered so nobody was searching for the noise in the signal.

    Returning to that National Geographic article I linked earlier…

    ‘Seismic activity was previously detected in the same region in 1999, along the Gakkel Ridge—a 1,200-mile-long (2,000-kilometer-long) mid-ocean mountain range north of Greenland.

    ‘Hundreds of earthquakes were observed over a nine-month period, with magnitudes between 4 and 6.

    ‘This earthquake swarm was the largest in recorded history along a spreading mid-ocean ridge and prompted researchers to return to the area for further investigation.’

    It might just be a coincidence that 1999 was about the time the alarmists started ranting the pole is melting.

    Read the fucking references you tool and stop lying.

    #45

    #46

    Read. Learn. Understand. Grow up.

  83. #84 BBD
    August 4, 2013

    You are right chek and others. The yeast on this thread is effectively beyond the reach of reason.

    Since non of the fuckwits here actually understands *anything* about the topic, they aren’t capable of understanding referenced responses to their nonsense.

    Not that they ever bother actually reading a word of the science they profess to understand better than the actual scientists themselves. Oh no. Too much like hard work.

    Just look at that tool gordy. He asks me for a reference then utterly ignores it when provided and continues to repeat the same fucking nonsense as before.

    The very definition of total fucking prat.

    GFY, gordy.

  84. #85 Lionel A
    August 4, 2013

    el gordo wrt species loss

    On the flimsy evidence available, I don’t believe its possible to make a prediction 100 years in advance.

    We do not need to make predictions for there is ample evidence that a new geological age is on us with the anthropocene as another mass extinction is underway with our activities being the major culprit a part of which being rising temperatures.

    Now if you had bothered reading instead of making this flippant remark:

    @ #85 here where you you ducked answering the question.

    Once you have caught up with Jared Diamond’s three books here is another reading suggestion:

    The Future Of Life. I suggest that you take advantage of the ‘Frequently bought together’ offer.

    Note this under product description

    Our world is far richer than previously conceived, yet so ravaged by human activity that half its species could be gone by the end of the present century. These two contrasting themes–unexpected magnificence and underestimated peril–have originated during the past two decades of research. In this timely and important new book, one of our greatest living scientists describes exactly what treasures of the natural world we are about to lose forever and what we can do right now to save them. Destruction of natural habitats, the rampant spread of invasive species, pollution, uncontrolled population growth and overharvesting are the main threats to our natural world. Wilson explains how each of these elements works to undo the web of life that supports us, and why it is in our best interests to stop it.

    Now educate yourself and stop wasting time with idiotic posts that reveal your deep, blinkered, ignorance.

  85. #86 BBD
    August 4, 2013

    Lionel A

    Remember that this is the buffoon who admonished me to:

    Stop spreading lies about a harmless trace gas.

    So this clown is a fully-fledged physics denier. Not much hope for people who are that detached from reality.

    He’s also one of the breed that sets human life and suffering at nothing:

    You are full of fear and loathing for something that may happen a long time after you have been beamed up.

    This is somewhat similar to the argument that if I poison a reservoir and in a few weeks kill millions, but know I won’t be caught, then it’s not a problem for me. I can live with it.

    These insights into the mindset of denialist scum are as interesting as they are unpleasant.

    A pattern definitely emerges. An ugly one.

  86. #87 Olaus Petri
    August 4, 2013

    Fellas, especially Bernie dear, remember when I informed you guys that the Emperor penguines could be in trouble if the ice kept on growing in Antarctica? ;-)

    “They have a high survival rate compared to other penguins, with an average of 95% surviving the year. However, if it is a harsh sea-ice year, many chicks will die of starvation. Emperors are the least common Antarctic penguin, with only about 200,000 breeding pairs.”

    http://www.antarctica.ac.uk/about_antarctica/wildlife/birds/penguins/emperor.php

  87. #88 Lionel A
    August 4, 2013

    Remember that this is the buffoon who admonished me to:

    Stop spreading lies about a harmless trace gas.

    Yes I noticed that egregious statement given the times that he has been appraised of the science from Fourier, through Tyndall, Arrhenius, Callander, Keelin and Revelle.

    So Gordo, you are the liar here.

    Why do we keep responding?

    Simple, the lurkers here can see for themselves that the deniers are ‘Emperors without clothes’ and that the really ugly are the likes of el gordo. Each post he makes he digs his pit of lying filth deeper.

  88. #89 Lionel A
    August 4, 2013

    And another one falls on his face whilst holding his hand uppermost.

    OP ask yourself why the sea ice in some areas of the Antarctic is growing, and other areas shrinking.. You will almost certainly need to do some HONEST research to find the answer for it is not a simple one.

  89. #90 Olaus Petri
    August 4, 2013

    Ah..Lionel! I see, the impressive sea ice extent in Antarctica must be due to Global warming?

    Did I get it right? ;-)

  90. #91 BBD
    August 4, 2013

    #89

    Quite probably yes.

    Inform yourself.

  91. #92 BBD
    August 4, 2013
  92. #93 chek
    August 4, 2013

    Be a good sport. Act like you know what I’m talking about,

    I certainly do li’ll mike. You’re clutching your pearls in one hand and having a big bad greenies victim wank with the other.

    So, you go and froth yourself off about hives and whatever other airy-fairy, needlessly-hyphenated, piss-arse, pissant concerns that really concern you, and leave dealing with the nonsense of unthinking moron repeaters to those who can recognise and expose the moronic.

  93. #94 BBD
    August 4, 2013

    Try to remember Olaus that argument from ignorance and argument from incredulity are logical fallacies.

    You do know what a logical fallacy is, I presume?

    They are best avoided if you want to engage in a rational discussion.

  94. #95 BBD
    August 4, 2013

    It’s ironic, isn’t it, chek, that Mike thinks it’s all reds-under-the bed when the distortion of public policy is actually being done by vested corporate interest and its enablers on the political right.

    I sometimes wonder if Mike has really thought this through.

  95. #96 chek
    August 4, 2013

    I sometimes wonder if Mike has really thought this through.

    I think already we know the answer to that one. Plus as Lotharsson reminds us, it’s all projection with that crowd. Very like a hive mind in their constantly repeated similarities from supposedly different entities.

  96. #97 BBD
    August 4, 2013

    It’s so true. Projection is everything with this lot. It’s all self-description, really.

    Paranoid, frightened, dishonest, mean-spirited and desperate.

  97. #98 Olaus Petri
    August 4, 2013

    BBD, educate this instead:

    http://nsidc.org/data/seaice_index/index.html

    Your link, a summary: Frist they couldn’t find the accelarting global warming in the atmosphere, then they found it deep down in the seas, where they can’t measure.

    Very solid BBD! ;-) Like the Yetis, the creatures that lives where you just can’t find them, but believers like yourself know they exist anyway. ;-)

    What about the Emperor penguines? Can they take more heat? Or do they need new clothings? ;-)

  98. #99 chek
    August 4, 2013

    OP, your problem is that you have no competent scientists to give you reasoned arguments. And that’s why you’re like a little child pulling faces at the window, because you’ve got nothing except blogstupid from stupid bloggers to inform you.

  99. #100 BBD
    August 4, 2013

    Your link, a summary: Frist they couldn’t find the accelarting global warming in the atmosphere, then they found it deep down in the seas, where they can’t measure.

    Rubbish. OHC 0 – 2000m layer.

    Data denial. AKA argument from incredulity and from ignorance.

    RTFL.

    You aren’t saying anything.