September 2013 Open Thread

The thread, there is more.


  1. #1 chek
    October 2, 2013

    Kinda reinforces what old delushioned Stevenson was muttering on about earlier.

    It kinda reinforces that you have no argument even more.

  2. #2 Lionel A
    October 2, 2013

    Craig @ #81

    Aaargh! As if recent BBC TV News bulletins were not bad enough leading up to the release of AR5. I had detected a pattern there with the GWPF right in the frame and this latest nonsense confirms it.

    Peter Lilley I marked the cards of in my #44 on this page above. Lilley is a disgrace and so is Patterson, Osborne and Cameron with their head in the sand (or full of sand) promotion of fracking.

    On the Monday Evening 6 o’clock News (18:00 BST) we were treated to a load of propaganda BS from a British gas field worker in the US explaining how fracked gas was going to be a GHG effect beater. I had to put down my tea and grit my teeth. My wife gets uppity when I start shouting at the box. I could not find that particular segment, indeed the BBC were rather coy about access to that whole report.

    Trouble is, as recognised, the BBC have been cowed into submission to government whims by various exposures of wrong doing (scandals in the idiom). I have a feeling that there were some sitting on these to roll out when best used.

    The indecent haste, and sneaky introduction just before the Summer Recess, of ‘The Transparency of Lobbying, non-Party Campaigning, and Trade Union Administration Bill is but one more element for an administration that has moved from Conservative to Regressive and now threatens to become The Repressive party.

  3. #3 Lionel A
    October 2, 2013


    There are more ways of judging temperature of the oceans than measuring with thermometers. Sea level is one indicator. Ecological developments are another and you may want to check out SOFAR.

    Whatever, it is know that the oceans must be warming because, cryosphere changes aside, there is a huge missing heat addition component from Earth’s budget. Ocean heat is the recognised major term in total heat build up of the Earth.

    The trouble is that you don’t understand the methodologies employed by scientists so you dismiss out of hand. It isn’t simple sums.

  4. #4 Jeff Harvey
    October 2, 2013

    “Deniers simply dominate because they are closer to the truth than alarmists. That’s logical”

    You forgot to say “That’s logical in an insane asylum”.

    And perchance, where exactly do ‘deniers dominate’? Aside from in your fantasies that is? Certainly not in academia, where they are few and far between. And certainly not in terms of scientific pedigree, since most of them have lousy publication and citation records. So where exactly?

    Joe’s heading for the penalty box soon for a game misconduct, that is clear.

  5. #5 BBD
    October 2, 2013


    FFS will you answer a simple question?

    1/ Are you alleging a scientific conspiracy to mislead the world, Rednoise?


    Answer it!

  6. #6 Jeff Harvey
    October 2, 2013

    Note how Rednose, Mack (Karen’s moved on to another old ‘handle’ since apparently being moderated out as well) and Joe try feebly to legitimize Stevenson, in Joe’s case by pasting up a summary of his career.

    That doesn’t mean diddly squat when Stevenson decides – or more likely is forced – to publish his garbage in a source as utterly appalling as 21st C S & T. That it ended up there says everything about its credibility (meaning it has NONE). Why didn’t he target a scientific audience by submitting it to any number of excellent journals in the field? But of course, it would have gone through an exhaustive peer-review process and been bounced. So Stevenson ends up getting it published in the scientific equivalent of Mad Magazine.

    All that’s left is for deniers like KarenMackSunspotand and Joe to suggest that Stevenson’s arguments are valid wherever they are published. And for Rednose to link the article. It is not worth debating the contents of an article published in a venue that is so utterly wretched.

    Really guys, you are so easy to debunk. Is this the limit of your debating skills? I’d find more of a challenge in a first grade elementary school class.

  7. #7 BBD
    October 2, 2013

    See Rednoise dodge!

    Hop! Skip! Jump!

    Watch the dishonest little shit refuse to answer the question now repeated eight times!

  8. #8 Rednose
    October 2, 2013

    Still waiting for the evidence, try and be a little more specific, that subtropical windspeeds are increasing.
    After all, your excuse that the ocean ate my global warming depends on it.

    And Jeff, I also quoted from AR5, perhaps you ought to read some of it instead of spouting off the usual crap.
    Readings at 2000 metres in the 50s and 60s. Very few.

    Ah the “missing heat”. Still looking by all accounts
    If I was bookish, like what like Leloin is, I could quote something apt from the Scarlet Pimpernel.

  9. #9 Lionel A
    October 2, 2013


    And Jeff, I also quoted from AR5,…

    Maybe you did, maybe you didn’t. As is usual for your type you are coy about precise citations. I wonder? Selective quoting without understanding context. Once again another marker for the devious.

    Now I could not find that quote in the officially released Summary for Policy Makers nor in the DRAFT ‘Climate Change 2013: The Physical Science Basis
    Technical Summary

    Now maybe it is in one of the other sections which I have yet to download, but then I prefer to wait for the official release. Not much value in speculation over something that bears this warning:

    Do Not Cite, Quote or Distribute

    So unless the status has changed since I last looked yesterday, and IIRC 2014 was a scheduled release date, then you have been a very naughty boy.

  10. #10 Bernard J.
    October 2, 2013

    I think that Joe is another Spotty sock. He doesn’t have much to say unless it’s copy-paste, and it’s rather coincidental that Mack suddenly reappears to support him just when the ‘karen’ sock has been put into the hamper.

  11. #11 St. Cyr
    October 2, 2013

    Props to the thousands of people who have donated over $960,000 in the space of a couple of days to support the reconstituted Australian Climate Council following its scrapping by the criminally short-sighted new Federal Government (talk about regulatory capture).

    For those interested in an accessible (read layperson-friendly) summary of the IPCC’s 5th Assessment Report, the Climate Council’s report can be found here.

  12. #12 Stu
    October 2, 2013

    Why are you talking about heat, Rednose? You have no idea what it is.

    Hint: it’s not temperature.

  13. #13 Rednose
    October 2, 2013


    Why are you talking about heat,

    Thought I was mainly talking about the crap coverage of measurements in the 50s and 60s at 2000m,
    Hint, Thats temperature measurements.

    Try appendix 3 of the link from BBD on previous page

    A fool and his money!

  14. #14 BBD
    October 2, 2013

    #6 3.6.2

    Read the fucking words, conspiracy theorist nutter.

    Your refusal to answer the question is taken as a “yes”. You cannot complain because you have dodged and ducked and weaved quite astonishingly hard in an attempt to avoid answering a simple YES/NO.

    So you get to be written off as a paranoid nutter. A tinfoil case. What’s the fucking point even talking to you?

    – You cannot read a reference even when directed to the specific sub-heading

    – You cannot read a graph

    – You don’t understand basic physics

    – You know nothing about physical climatology and reject instruction

    – You know nothing about paleoclimate behaviour and reject instruction

    – You reject correction for your constant, often appalling errors

    – You repeat your errors ad nauseam, despite correction ad nauseam

    Seriously, what is the point engaging with an ignorant, dishonest fuckwit who is consumed by paranoid fantasies?

    You tell me, because at this stage in the game, I am fucked if I know.

  15. #15 Bernard J.
    October 2, 2013

    A fool and his money!

    As the Coalition voters will discover when the Abbott government starts to hand over tax-payer dollars to Big Industry for carbon reduction ‘actions’ that will do less than nothing to reduce carbon emissions, rather than letting proven market mechanisms put the impost direcltly onto the polluters.

    If a small business proprietor pulled this type of swiftie they’d do jail time.

  16. #16 BBD
    October 2, 2013

    Selective quoting without understanding context. Once again another marker for the devious.

    Oh my fucking sides. You utter, stinking hypocrite.

  17. #17 Jeff Harvey
    October 2, 2013

    Rednonsense, You also posted an article up here from 21 C Sci and Tech. That disqualifies you.

    Furthermore, I’d like to know how an utter layman like you can interpret conclusions of the IPCC documents better than the scientists who wrote them. Sounds like a bad case of Dunning-Kruger to me. But, then again, you aren’t the only scientific illiterate who does it. The other deniers I have encountered on Deltoid do it all the time. And not one of them has any formal training in climate science or any related field.

  18. #18 Lionel A
    October 2, 2013

    Selective quoting without understanding context. Once again another marker for the devious.

    Oops! It was I that wrote that. Well I think I did therefore I am.

  19. #19 Joe
    October 2, 2013

    Dr. Stevenson has explained, as a prime expert:

    Some Basics of Marine Climatology

    I wrote my first paper on the ocean’s influence on climate in 1958. The next year I was in England, working for the Navy to learn whether or not “micro- climates,” as we called them, along shores of the North Sea were determined by the adjacent coastal ocean. During the year, I visited all of the marine laboratories and research centers in western Europe.

    It was in Germany, at the Seewetteramt (Marine Branch of the German Meteorological Office), where I met and began to work with two outstanding marine climatologists, Martin Rodewald, and Hans Markgraf, and the director, Dr. Hans U. Roll, the premier marine meteorologist of the time. They were looking at much larger areas than I—namely, the North Atlantic and the polar seas—and how they influenced the climate and weather over northwest Europe. It was a great education for me. I learned the processes by which the ocean and atmosphere work together.

    The basics of these interactions start where oceans and atmosphere meet. More than 70 percent of the Earth’s surface is covered by oceans, seas, and lakes, and another 5 percent is covered by glaciers and ice caps. Just more than two thirds of this water area is in the Southern Hemisphere, and the oceans are 4 to 5 kilometers deep.

    The atmosphere cannot warm until the underlying surface warms first. The lower atmosphere is transparent to direct solar radiation, preventing it from being significantly warmed by sunlight alone. The surface atmosphere thus gets its warmth in three ways: from direct contact with the oceans; from infrared radiation off the ocean surface; and, from the removal of latent heat from the ocean by evaporation. Consequently, the temperature of the lower atmosphere is largely determined by the temperature of the ocean.
    Inland locations are less restrained by the oceans, so the surface air experiences a wider temperature range than it does over the oceans. Land cannot store heat for long, which is why hot days are quickly followed by cold nights in desert regions. For most of the Earth, however, the more dominant ocean temperatures fix the air temperature.

    This happens through several means:

    (1) The oceans transport heat around the globe via massive currents which sweep grandly through the various ocean basins. As a result, the tropics are cooler than they would be otherwise, and the lands of the high latitudes are warmer. The global circulation of heat in the oceans moderates the air temperatures around the whole world.

    (2) Because of the high density/specific heat of sea water, the entire heat in the overlying atmosphere can be contained in the top two meters of the oceans. This enormous storage capacity enables the oceans to “buffer” any major deviations in temperature, moderating both heat and cold waves alike.

    (3) Evaporation is constantly taking place at the surface of the seas. It is greatest in the tropics and weakest near the polar regions. The effect of evaporation is to cool the oceans and, thereby, the surface atmosphere.

    How the Oceans Get Warm

    Warming the ocean is not a simple matter, not like heating a small glass of water. The first thing to remember is that the ocean is not warmed by the overlying air.

    Let’s begin with radiant energy from two sources: sunlight, and infrared radiation, the latter emitted from the “greenhouse” gases (water vapor, carbon dioxide, methane, and various others) in the lower atmosphere. Sunlight penetrates the water surface readily, and directly heats the ocean up to a certain depth. Around 3 percent of the radiation from the Sun reaches a depth of about 100 meters.

    The top layer of the ocean to that depth warms up easily under sunlight. Below 100 meters, however, little radiant energy remains. The ocean becomes progressively darker and colder as the depth increases. (It is typical for the ocean temperature in Hawaii to be 26°C (78°F) at the surface, and 15°C (59°F) at a depth of 150 meters.

    The infrared radiation penetrates but a few millimeters into the ocean. This means that the greenhouse radiation from the atmosphere affects only the top
    few millimeters of the ocean. Water just a few centimeters deep receives none of the direct effect of the infrared thermal energy from the atmosphere! Further, it is in those top few millimeters in which evaporation takes places. So whatever infrared energy may reach the ocean as a result of the greenhouse effect is soon dissipated.

    The concept proposed in some predictive models is that any anomalous heat in the mixed layer of the ocean (the upper 100 meters) might be lost to the deep ocean. There have been a number of studies in which this process has been addressed (Nakamura 1997; Tanimoto 1993; Trenberth 1994; Watanabi 1994; and White 1998). It is clear that solar-related variations in mixed-layer temperatures penetrate to between 80 to 160 meters, the average depth of the main pycnocline (density discontinuity) in the global ocean. Below these depths, temperature fluctuations become uncorrelated with solar signals, deeper penetration being restrained by the stratified barrier of the pycnocline.
    Consequently, anomalous heat associated with changing solar irradiance is stored in the upper 100 meters. The heat balance is maintained by heat loss to the atmosphere, not to the deep ocean.

    What about Thermohaline Circulation?

    The fact that the surface ocean can become denser than the underlying waters, thereby sinking to depths of “density equilibrium,” has been discussed since surveys of the physical ocean began in the second half of the 19th century. Certainly the concept was known before HMS Challenger sailed, in 1873, on its famous expedition. One of the multitude of suggestions made by members of the Royal Society at that time was to investigate the “over-turning of surface waters caused by density differences.”

    Thermohaline circulation is responsible for the formation of the bottom-water masses in the world’s oceans: the North Atlantic Deep Water (NADW) originates basically in the region of the Labrador Sea; the Weddell Sea is the source of the deep-water in the circumpolar Southern Ocean; and the Pacific Deep Water originates in the Ross Sea. In many other places in the oceans, and seas, as well, surface waters are carried into the depths by thermohaline circulation.

    So, it is not surprising that those modellers who “need” to get warm surface waters to move into the depths of the oceans, and remain sequestered there for long periods of time, would turn to the physical mechanism of this vertical circulation system. Their hope (claim) is that there can be occasions when salinity, rather than temperature, is the prime determining factor in the density of the surface waters. Then, warm water, made dense by an increase in the sea’s salt content, would sink.

    It does not happen!

  20. #20 chek
    October 2, 2013

    Readings at 2000 metres in the 50s and 60s. Very few.

    And how would you – a know-nothing conspiracy- mag punting crank, let’s remember – determine how many were ‘enough’? With references please.

  21. #21 Lionel A
    October 2, 2013

    More RedNoise:

    Thought I was mainly talking about the crap coverage of measurements in the 50s and 60s at 2000m…

    And you have got as much sodding idea as the insane or mendacious Nigel Lawson. Who doesn’t grok statistics. How the f*** did he become Chancellor of the Exchequer?

    But then government is still populated by shills and/or idiots.

    But of course Paterson has to suck up to his cabinet superior.

    But we already knew that this government were backing away from carbon targets by whipping up a storm of media frenzy about running out of Gas in 2015 so that Cameron comes over as entirely reasonable with his fracking push.

  22. #22 chek
    October 2, 2013

    … because at the moment Redarse you’re just trying to whip up unqualified doubt with no basis.

  23. #23 Stu
    October 2, 2013

    Rednose @6: Ah the “missing heat”. Still looking by all accounts

    Stu @10: Why are you talking about heat, Rednose? You have no idea what it is.

    Rednose @11: Thought I was mainly talking about the crap coverage of measurements in the 50s and 60s at 2000m, Hint, Thats temperature measurements.

    My God you’re a moron, Rednose. I double-dog-dare you to explain — in your own words — the difference between temperature and heat.

  24. #24 BBD
    October 2, 2013


    Can’t you read? I dealt with Stevenson’s being out of touch with developments in his field yesterday. He doesn’t present the full picture. He doesn’t *know* it. Or rather he didn’t some time last century, when this was written and just before he died, aged 80.

    Cutting and pasting vast screeds that you obviously have not understood is just tedious. Go back and read the thread again. You will see the final paragraph of your redundant mega-quote has been quoted already – by me. Read the words.

  25. #25 Lionel A
    October 2, 2013

    Joe, or is it Jo Nova hiding under the coverlet?

    2) Because of the high density/specific heat of sea water, the entire heat in the overlying atmosphere can be contained in the top two meters of the oceans. This enormous storage capacity enables the oceans to “buffer” any major deviations in temperature, moderating both heat and cold waves alike


    In that whole copy and paste have you actually read and taken on board what it all means? It isn’t as if we don’t know this stuff about ocean currents, after all some of us have studied oceanography and read Wally Broecker et. al.

    And the Challenger voyage I am familiar with, not least by reading, listening to and chatting with Dr. Richard Corfield.

    Now perhaps you can answer the questions I posed above at Page 25 #70″> and consider the implications of that part I have highlighted for us when the added heat to the oceans since pre-industrial times is released back into the atmosphere.

    The heat capacity of water is ….?

    The heat capacity of air is …..?

    The difference in mass between the oceans and the atmosphere is…..?

    Getting the picture yet?

  26. #26 Lionel A
    October 2, 2013

    Aargh! Blasted gouty fingers and html typos!

    Now perhaps you can answer the questions I posed above at Page 25 #70 and consider the implications of that part I have highlighted for us when the added heat to the oceans since pre-industrial times is released back into the atmosphere.

    The heat capacity of water is ….?

    The heat capacity of air is …..?

    The difference in mass between the oceans and the atmosphere is…..?

    Getting the picture yet?

  27. #27 BBD
    October 2, 2013

    The tedious yammering about OHC measurements back in the 1950s and 1960s can stop as well because that was also dealt with days ago

    You can start in 1970. It makes no odds. Here are the data, with error bars – repeated for at least the third time.

    Some people need to STFU and pay attention. Although this could be regarded as a test screening out those who cannot read and understand graphs. Some have apparently failed already.

    People that stupid have no business commenting on climate change anywhere, not even in the pub.

  28. #28 BBD
    October 2, 2013


    Think about it like this:

    Ask yourself “how does ENSO work?”

    Go and find out. Do some work.

    Then ask “what is the dominant ENSO state when the easterlies are strong?”

    Ask “what is the dominant ENSO state when the easterlies are weak?”

    Then ask “what is the dominant ENSO state now?” And “is this a given reason for the cool East Pacific and the slowdown in tropospheric warming?”

    Now join up the dots: ask “what does this tell us about the relative strength of the easterlies over the last decade or so?”

    Finally, ask: “what effect does strengthening of the easterlies have on the subtropical gyres, especially the largest two – the N.Pacific and S. Pacific gyres?”

    Now go and read AR5 WG1 3.6.2 and 3.6.6 *properly*.

    Then read some sensible discussion of Balmaseda et al. (2013) – eg this one at SkS and this one at RC.

  29. #29 Stu
    October 2, 2013

    Lionel, this assumes one knows what “heat capacity” and “mass” are. Rednose does not.

  30. #30 Lionel A
    October 2, 2013

    Seeing as RedNoise found IPCC AR5 DRAFT Chapter 3 before me isn’t it indicative that he ignores Box 3.1, Figure 1.

  31. #31 BBD
    October 2, 2013
  32. #32 Craig Thomas
    October 2, 2013

    [blockquote]On the Monday Evening 6 o’clock News (18:00 BST) we were treated to a load of propaganda BS from a British gas field worker in the US explaining how fracked gas was going to be a GHG effect beater. [/blockquote]

    Lionel, you should join Gen Z. and cease obtaining your information from TV. They have learnt that everything they need to see can be seen on the internet, or downloaded and watched at a time of their convenience. They are escaping the ability of the likes of Murdoch to dictate what they watch and when they watch it.
    Generations Y and X are grasping technology and hopefully they will soon follow suit and cease using print media or TV for any purpose whatsoever.

  33. #33 bill
    October 3, 2013

    You know you’ve reached the outer margin of your limited imagination when the best handle you can come up with for your latest sock is ‘Joe’.

    Fuck off, SunSpam.

    (I feel better everytime I say that!)

    And, RedNoise, you embody the word ‘hapless’, but you’re too stupid and arrogant to know it. C’mon, Buffoon, what’s the difference between temperature and heat? Do any of you clowns know it?

    Nice to go travelling for a few days and find the trolls on a hiding to nothing. Should I assume the idiot Kai has been bounced, too? Woohoo!

  34. #34 Jeff Harvey
    October 3, 2013

    More extremely worrying signs of a looming ecological calamity in the Arctic as a result of warming and ice loss:–more-room–thousands-of-walruses-cram-onto-beach-160933082.html

    No doubt prepare to watch the deniers try and put some ridiculous spin on this.

  35. #35 BBD
    October 3, 2013

    #32 Jeff Harvey

    No doubt prepare to watch the deniers try and put some ridiculous spin on this.

    Well they’ve certainly got form for that!

    Walrus surges first Wattied in 2009.

    And then Wattied again in 2010, although rather less enthusiastically.

    But in 2011 (from the link you post above):

    Incredibly, 10,000 walruses crammed onto a small beach is small potatoes compared with the scene in 2011. Then, scientists observed a staggering 30,000 walruses on the beach, according to the NOAA.

    Oddly, I couldn’t find a WTFUWT “It’s not AGW” spoiler story for the 2011 walrus surge.

    Let’s see if we get one this year. Or Perhaps the deniers have lost their appetite for this particular story.

    (WTFUWT links are “nofollowed”).

  36. #36 BBD
    October 3, 2013

    …and don’t work. I’ve been having trouble with links at this site so not sure what happened. Here are the ‘raw’ links again: rel=”nofollow” rel=”nofollow”

  37. #37 Bernard J.
    October 3, 2013
  38. #38 Jeff Harvey
    October 3, 2013


    Thanks for the links. Its interesting how Watts – with absolutely and utterly no basic education in population ecology – suddenly enters the fray with his brand of ‘wisdom’. But all of the deniers do it. They are instant experts on anything and everything, at least where climate change is concerned. No formal education required. If a scientist says something they don’t like, and that doesn’t fit in with their pre-determined views, they wade in with their opinions.

    This is why so much blog ‘science’ is bullshit. CA, WUWT, Climate Depot, Bishop’s Hill, Nova, etc. Its also why the internet has become the haven for the denial industry. They’d be booted out of academia, so they end up on blogs.

  39. #39 Joe
    October 3, 2013


    To my knowledge population ecology is not a respected and generally accepted discipline of science, it is rather a hobby of green activists.

  40. #40 BBD
    October 3, 2013


  41. #41 rhwombat
    October 3, 2013

    Waaall, thaaars yer problem “Joe” – your “knowledge”.

    Funded chairs (and nature editorships) are available for eminent scientists in population ecology, like Jeff Harvey (BTW that’s Professor Jeff Harvey to illiterate scum like you). Blog “scientists” of the Denialati (like Watts, Codling, McIntyre & Monckton) their PR prostitutes (like Morano & the Idsos and all the denialist economists) and their tenured, paid & perjuring (and sometimes dead) beards (like Singer, Lindzen, Curry & Pielke Snr (P Jnr is a Political “Scientist”) – and your precious Stevenson) are “respected or generally accepted” by precisely no academic institution or scientific organisation anywhere on the planet – and there are statements to that effect from all such organisations.

    From his parsing (and the obsession with green activists), I think that “Joe” is the Kai/Freddy/Eurofascist/NPD Socktroll, not one of SunSpam’s rancid socks, and we all know what the Socktroll’s credibility on things scientific is (“I’m a senior, published climate scientist”).

    Rednoise is thicker than both the Socktroll & SunSpam, and shows such a dog-like devotion to the Daily Fail/Thatcher Tory bullshit that he cannot but be from the UK. Now that Betty Birch has fallen off his twig, and Fluke has fucked off, I suspect the sum total of Denier trolls here is no more than three (the Eurofascist, the Tory Git and the creepy local moron SunSpam. Perhaps we can play troll bingo.

  42. #42 Lionel A
    October 3, 2013


    Lionel, you should join Gen Z. and cease obtaining your information from TV.

    Any information I may get from TV is filtered via my cognitive framework built over many decades by the study of credible sources across a number of scientific and other fields (socio-political through lenses such as Pilger). The sources are text books and journal articles, many used in conjunction with structured courses up to and including university level in Maths and Science and also Humanities, technology (including computer architecture and programming) and a smattering of the arts. Then there was the great university of life which included a long spell in aviation engineering in the RN FAA.

    However I do like to know what the others are up to, know thine enemy and all that, which helps in the push back against them.

  43. #43 Lionel A
    October 3, 2013

    Joe jerks again:


    To my knowledge population ecology is not a respected

    That says more about your knowledge (non-existent) than the validity of population ecology which I suspect you think is about only humans.

  44. #44 bill
    October 3, 2013

    Yep, ‘to my knowledge’ was the key…

    Ah, the Ignorati!

  45. #45 Nick
    October 3, 2013

    #37,well your knowledge sucks,Joe…and you cannot be told,either! It’s a dead-end for you unless you can learn. What you gonna do?

  46. #46 Joe
    October 3, 2013

    I do not answer comments written in arrogant hostility and total ignorance of facts. Everybody of you who behaves and expresses himself as if he would be something better or know more than others does not deserve my attention.

  47. #47 Jeff Harvey
    October 3, 2013

    Joe, see rhowmbats comment above (thanks rh!).

    Your pitiful and pathetic comment sums up many in denier ranks: mindless trolls who think they can separate real science from the fictional kind.

    And then Joe has the audacity to argue that he doesn’t answer comments written in ‘arrogant hostility’after he writes an arrogantly hostile and stupid remark (that population ecology is not a well respected and generally accepted discipline of science et al ad nauseum).

    So Joe, who told you that? Or is it simply another made-up-on-the-spot view of a sad moron like you?

  48. #48 bill
    October 3, 2013

    Ah, right, it’s Kai, not the other idiot. Who want to write to Tim to get this sock blocked?

  49. #49 bill
    October 3, 2013

    Incidentally, Kai, a lot of people now come to Deltoid to see Ignorati mouthbreathers – such as yourself, SunSpam, RedRump etc. – get the shit kicked out of them, because so many honest, intelligent people are sooooooo heartily fucking sick of Denier morons and the endless stream of ordure that torrents forth from you all.

    It’s a kind of cruel Roman spectacle where the muppets are on a hiding to nothing – being both naturally, if not preternaturally, stupid, and having nurtured this innate disposition to a species of obtuse perfection – and where the educated who bother to actually read the reports and the papers aren’t tied to being tediously polite to the half-witted, such constraint being, when you think about it, a type of the very political correctness you lot are so passionately opposed to when you think anyone else stands to benefit from it.

    (Except not imaginary, as is so usually the case when you decry unearned privilege. Being as you all are mean-spirited shits, as well as dull ones.)

    So, in a way, and despite your best efforts, you’re actually performing a kind of community service here… rest easy, though; it’ll be the only one you ever do.

  50. #50 BBD
    October 3, 2013


    Fuck off and die!


  51. #51 Bernard J.
    October 3, 2013

    Still reckon that it’s Sunspot!


  52. #52 FrankD
    October 3, 2013

    Bernard, no, it’s definitely another from Kai’s TARDIS-like sock drawer.

    expresses himself as if he would be something better

    From memory, the Boris sock was on the hand when it used this exact, and quite distinctive, phrasing some months back. From memory again (sorry, but I’m soooo not wasting the time to ferret it out) I think it was in wibbling about him being the Grand Poobah of all things scientific and BBD not being worthy to pass a retort*.

    I remember it because it was such an obvious tell that I went off looking for mittel/eastern Eurolanguages that used such distinctive subjunctives. Sunspot couldn’t fake this – even if he were in the mood** to, he still wouldn’t be able to pick a subjunctive, regardless of the imperative***

    *see what I did there?
    ** oh, snap!
    *** my work here is done… 🙂

  53. #53 Joe
    October 3, 2013

    I am embarassed about the foul language adopted of the “commenters” here.

  54. #54 BBD
    October 3, 2013


    I’m embarrassed that you should think you could get your sockpuppetry past our noses, Kai.

    Now fuck off and die!


  55. #55 BBD
    October 3, 2013

    #49 Bernard J

    I’m sure FrankD is correct and it’s Kai/Freddy/Boris/Berendwanker – although it was Jeff H’s super-sensitive antennae (appropriately enough) that twitched first!

    Just smell the phraseology.


  56. #56 BBD
    October 3, 2013

    There’s a sausage on the barbecue!

    🙂 🙂 🙂

  57. #57 Joe
    October 3, 2013

    Why are you guyz so nervouz. Listen to more intelligent people than you:

    “The determinant of weather is mainly water in all its forms,” said Dr. Herzberg, “as vapor in the atmosphere, in its heat transport by evaporation and condensation, as the enormous circulating mass of liquid ocean whose heat capacity and mass/energy transport dominate the motions of our atmosphere and the precipitation from it, and finally as cloud, snow, and ice cover which influence the radiative balance between the Sun, the Earth, and free Space.”

  58. #58 Stu
    October 3, 2013

    Seriously — fuck off and take your meds, Freddy.

  59. #59 Lionel A
    October 3, 2013

    OK Joe, what other special qualities has water got that make it ‘Familiar, Abundant and Odd‘?

    A free virtual lollipop if you can tell me where that description comes from.

  60. #60 Joe
    October 3, 2013


  61. #61 Lionel A
    October 3, 2013


    Note, ‘qualities‘, plural.

    Besides many substances are fluid, including rock and glass. So fluid was not an answer I was looking for.

  62. #62 BBD
    October 3, 2013

    Freddy, you really, really need to read Lacis et al. (2010). Your conception of the way the climate system actually works is such a mess.

    There’s a good discussion of the paper here for the curious.

    You’ve got the natural order of things muddled up. Non-condensing GHGs (mainly CO2) set up the atmospheric “temperature framework” which determines the atmospheric fraction of water vapour.

  63. #63 Lionel A
    October 3, 2013

    Good luck with those links in #60 with the US Govmint shutdown. Those Repuglicans strike again. The whole lot should be booted out. Some are even bragging about shutting down the EPA. They are shameless.

  64. #64 Jeff Harvey
    October 3, 2013

    Joe (Sunspot) is embarassed about the stupidity of his comments here…

    … as well he should be. Bill’s correct; one of us has to get him booted off, although its inevitable that he will don another sock puppet and return…

  65. #65 BBD
    October 3, 2013

    #61 Oh FFS. Of course. Stupid of me. Funnily enough, I was only thinking the same thing yesterday about the more fundamentalist Republicans – the American public needs to get rid of them before their lunatic ideology wrecks the country.

  66. #66 Lionel A
    October 3, 2013

    Here is another pointer to the way things are moving Private Firefighter Crews Save Wealthy Homes From Wildfires As It Becomes Harder To Save The Poor’s.

    This at a time when there are moves afoot in the UK to use private contract firemen. Already there are private firm run ambulances causing issues in some authorities (local councils to others abroad maybe) and plans to use private security firms for some Police assignments like guarding crime scenes. G4S in the frame for some of these latter so I heard – they did us proud with the Olympics didn’t they – NOT!

    Navy, Army and Air Force before long too.

    Another era of the society of Garrow’s Law arrives. The well off can have their Duck Houses but the rest will have to earn a crust if they are lucky.

    We are a bit short of lands for penal colonies now though.

  67. #67 Stu
    October 3, 2013

    Ah, good old Crassus times.

  68. #68 BBD
    October 3, 2013

    For a few sesterces more!

  69. #69 Lionel A
    October 3, 2013

    Many Army roles have been taken over by mercenary organisations and the Americans know much about that too, think Blackwater – who were the faces behind many an atrocity in Iraq, actions which also got more regular US grunts killed and maimed.

  70. #70 Stu 2
    October 3, 2013

    Just dropped in to see what was happening in Deltoid for October and whether there might be a new post that was being discussed.
    Apparently it’s still September here?

  71. #71 chek
    October 3, 2013

    ‘Strewth and fair dinkum on the calendar update mate, but isn’t your prime area of interest on whether Marohasy’s knickers are overflowing or not, at least until such time as she dries up?

    Don’t remember too much about anything else from you. Did yer get a squint at AR5 at all while boiling your billy over at the sheepdip, mate?

  72. #72 bill
    October 4, 2013

    If some lunatic went on a rampage in Ohio tomorrow and machine-gunned every frickin’ child in an elementary school the chances of getting anything done about gun control – i.e. bring the US on par with the rest of the civilized world – would actually lessen, precisely because these freakin’ lunatics are prepared to sacrifice anything and anyone to their ideology.

    GOP / Tea Party wreckers close down gubmint, science, rationality and the future itself, and fall about congratulating themselves in the process. The disease has infected angry white men across the globe. These are the idiots we’re confronting.

    Reasoning with them is not working, because they have no commitment to reason. (And as we know from this site they have limited capacity to reason in the first place!)

    They are committed only to winning. We cannot let them, and we’ve been pussy-footing around with them for too long.

  73. #73 Stu 2
    October 4, 2013

    Check @#69.
    What a remarkably strange and unnecessarily rude response.
    Concern about Marohasy?
    Hardly mate.
    I tried to point out to Nick that he was giving her way too much kudos which she did not deserve.
    Your comments about billies and sheep dips are most peculiar. Do you think that everyone who lives out in the MDB is some type of country yokel and or uneducated redneck who suffers from a lack of knowledge?
    Seemingly Check, old mate, we at least recognise that this September thread is days out of date and has apparently been abandoned by its owner.

  74. #75 Stu 2
    October 4, 2013

    Sorry Lotharsson.
    There is nothing wrong with my memory. I actually noticed that Tim must have found other places to spend his time.
    It becomes very noticeable when one returns to see if there is something new and interesting happening at Deltoid at the start of a new month.
    There isn’t and there hasn’t been for many months.
    Sad but true and very easy to observe by a quick perusal of the blog.
    I am aware you answered a similar question in early September when this blog was still operating under an August thread.

  75. #76 Lotharsson
    October 4, 2013

    Oops, forgot to blockquote the first paragraph of my previous comment.

  76. #77 Joe
    October 4, 2013

    @61 “Good luck with those links in #60 with the US Govmint shutdown. Those Repuglicans strike again. The whole lot should be booted out. Some are even bragging about shutting down the EPA. They are shameless.”

    Why don’t you accept democratic decisions by the elected majority?

    Closing the EPA is not shameless but reasonable!

  77. #78 Nick
    October 4, 2013

    #75 “Closing the EPA is….reasonable”. Then show us your reasoning, ‘Joe’. Will it be built on your Blithering Ignorance Model, the one you applied to population ecology back at #37?

  78. #79 Jeff Harvey
    October 4, 2013

    Joe writes, “Why don’t you accept democratic decisions by the elected majority?”

    This guy gets dumber by the minute. The electorate in the US don’t matter to those and power and never has. The public in general is miles to the left of its government but that is irrelevant. The US is a plutocracy pure and simple – top down rule and aimed at ensuring the interests of the privileged few are the priority. The two main parties represent the same vested corporate interests.

    Plugging the leaks on Deltoid in terms of discussion on climate and other issues is virtually impossible. Just when idiots like Karen, Berendaneke-Freddy, Luke and Sunspot get booted out in comes Joe. The procession of morons never ends. As I pointed out earlier, if this is the general intellectual level of those on the ‘other side’, then no wonder our species is in such deep, deep trouble.

  79. #80 BBD
    October 4, 2013

    Agreed wrt the US being a plutocracy. Everywhere is, really. The sickening thing is how many lackeys there are. We see some here. The ironic thing is that the lackeys actually think *they* are the independent-minded types. Which is enough to make a cat laugh.

    * * *

    BTW “Joe” is Kai/Freddy/Boris/Berendwanker etc. Trust me on this.

  80. #81 Nick
    October 4, 2013

    #78 My cat isn’t laughing. She says the combination of aggression, pride and stupidity makes these Teabaggers very unlikely to shift to realistic world views.

  81. #82 rhwombat
    October 4, 2013

    Bingo! “Stu2” has completed my card. BTW, I think chek’s University of Wooloomaloo comment on Marohasy wins the thread.

  82. #83 bill
    October 4, 2013

    Joe is indeed Kai. The stilted language alone is sufficient proof. Both are idiots.

    The idea that the Republicans have a ‘democratic mandate’ to close the US Government down is laughable. But this is precisely the kind of Radical Reaction that appeals to Deniers, what with their being the kind of Radical Reactionaries that imagine themselves to be Libertarians and all.

    The Liberty they seek is purely their own, of course, but like good lickspittles everywhere they also want to see rich men freed from the chains of Tyrannical and Oppressive Regulation that bind the poor loves, in the hope that the great men may yet toss them a few bits of silver when next they tug a grateful forelock in the presence of such magnificent opulence.

  83. #84 Wow
    October 4, 2013

    ” The disease has infected angry white men across the globe. ”

    Not really.

    It’s only the idiots in the USA who hate the “uppity nigger” in the whitehouse.

    Who knew “Blazing Saddles” was based on a future real life scenario…

  84. #85 BBD
    October 4, 2013


    I take your point, but there are stupid white men in the UK and Australia who – though not in the exact Republican mould – nonetheless fit the general pattern.

    Just while you are here, have you noticed that Tim has been in and house-cleaned? Various of the more flagrant sock-trolls have been removed.

  85. #86 Joe
    October 4, 2013


    any idea why the POTUS is not willing to cooperate with the democratically elected majority in Congress??

    The POTUS can quickly resolve his impairment if he wants. But he is too stubborn.

  86. #87 chek
    October 4, 2013

    Cheers RHW!
    Although I fear Python references may be gradually disappearing into the mists of the past.

  87. #88 Joe
    October 4, 2013

    The following honorable and distinguished US personalities, mostly scientists, are strictly against the IPCC global warming hoaxes and lies:

    Earl M. Aagaard, PhD,
    Charles W. Aami,
    Roger L. Aamodt, PhD,
    Wilbur A. Aanes,
    M. Robert Aaron,
    Ralph F. Abate,
    Hamed K. Abbas, PhD,
    Wyatt E. Abbitt II,
    Bernaard J. Abbott, PhD,
    David J. Abbott, MD,
    David M. Abbott Jr.,
    Donald W. Abbott,
    Douglas R. Abbott,
    Eugene Abbott,
    Frank D. Abbott,
    Paul Abbott,
    Ursula K. Abbott, PhD,
    Refaat A. Abdel-Malek, PhD,
    Albert S. Abdullah, DVM,
    Alan E. Abel, MD,
    Jason Abel,
    Janis I. Abele

  88. #89 Wow
    October 4, 2013

    “Just while you are here, have you noticed that Tim has been in and house-cleaned?”

    No, though it’s a good sign.

    Something is needed to reset conversation, though. Ethan did an excellent one that, though not perfect, has worked better than my cynical soul had considered, if only because Ethan actually used it to continue to clean up, after which several permatrolls fucked off for (very nearly) good.

    The link to Ethan’s post is here:

    (PS I look over in disgust every week or two. You lucked out in catching me on a decent work day. On a normal or bad day, the extra display of human shitheads is just too bloody depressing and annoying and my customers don’t need the fallout from that)

  89. #90 Wow
    October 4, 2013

    “any idea why the POTUS is not willing to cooperate with the democratically elected majority in Congress??”

    Because the elected majority in Congress are not willing to accept the will of the people who democratically voted, nor the house of the senate, nor the duly elected and reaffirmed president of the united states.

  90. #91 BBD
    October 4, 2013


    The Republicans aren’t acting as representatives of the American electorate. They are engaging in the worst kind of party politics at the expense of the American electorate, who will, I suspect, not thank them for it when all is said and done.

    * * *

    Please stop copy/pasting lists of non-climate scientists who don’t understand what they are denying. It serves no purpose at all, so you might as well type original content into the little box above the “submit” button.


    Barbecue sausage fuck!

    Or something like that. At least try to be amusing. It’s the least you can do while we wait for Tim to gets around to blocking your latest sock.

  91. #92 Joe
    October 4, 2013


    you need to found your assertion “are not willing to accept the will of the people” on facts.

    From where do you know what the “will of the people” is? The “will of the people” is democratically expressed by the elected representatives of the people. This is democracy. You should try to learn this.

  92. #93 BBD
    October 4, 2013


    As you’ve been away for a bit, a little background. You may well have come across something called “Kai” elsewhere, but here Kai has many, many names, the latest of which is “Joe”.

    He is Freddy.

    He is Boris.

    He is Berendanke (aka Berendwanker).

    Tim has been playing whack-a-sock with Kai, but Kai is a very persistent troll indeed.

  93. #94 Joe
    October 4, 2013


    you appear to suffer from paranoia. Stick to factz and not to superztition or suspicion. This is highly incivil and dishonest.

  94. #95 bill
    October 4, 2013

    Oh, sod off you tedious freak. Tim, if you’re around, this clown just will not accept that he’s not wanted.

  95. #96 Joe
    October 4, 2013

    bill, maybe YOU don’t want me here, but I did not behave incivil, undecent, offending or directly violating like you, BBD or chek. I just want to express my personal opinion like anybody else and am disappointed to be treated as pariah among extremely authoritative people here, like you or BBD, who constantly appeal to authority.

    My opinion on “global warming” is, that I am deeply convinced that the factual basis of the hypothesized anthropogenic warming is by far too small to draw the conclusions taken by the IPCC. This is not a political statement but a scientific one.

    Why can’t you live with the free expression of an opinion? Why?

  96. #97 BBD
    October 4, 2013


    “Joe” we all know you are Kai, Freddy, Boris and Berendwanker. We know. Your silly pretence is unnecessary. Why not revert back to “Kai” and have done with it?

  97. #98 Nick
    October 4, 2013

    Obamas health bill was passed by Congress and tested in the Supreme Court, ‘Joe’ some time ago…now the minority teabag rump has decided to f**k with democracy by trying to defund it in exchange for passing vital funding bills. So much for your honesty and grasp of factz. Since you know squat about anything you turn your attention to, you can indeed sod off.

  98. #99 BBD
    October 4, 2013

    # 94

    Ha ha.

    Why can’t you accept that you have been banned from this blog for abusive trolling and serial sock puppetry? Why?


  99. #100 Lionel A
    October 4, 2013

    Those in other lands may be unaware of how the latest stirring by the the Sunday Mail has blown up into a shit-storm, of their own making I must add.

    It started with an article aimed at Ed Milliband, opposition leader, by accusing his father of ‘hating Britain’, on the flimsiest of evidence, well none as a matter of fact.

    Now it isn’t hard to work out the purpose of that little exercise in character blackening.

    More on the developments here:

    Mail on Sunday apologises to Miliband after reporter turns up at memorial, but they refuse to apologise for the original slight against Milliband’s father and by extension Milliband himself.

    I have just seen some Daily Mail editor, Alex Brummer, on BBC TV complaining that Ed Milliband has turned this into a political point scoring exercise against the Mail and that they the Mail are owed an apology by Milliband. One cannot make this stuff up:

    Daily Mail exec demands apology over anti-semitism claims.

    The lady doth protest too much

    It has been noted that Paul Dacre current Daily Mail editor’s father avoided the WW2 draft thus not serving alongside Ed Milliband’s father in the Normandy landings, or serving in the Far East.

    As that BBC article writes:

    The row comes days before a crucial meeting of MPs next Wednesday on press regulation.

    Clearly the Mail has not heard of the old saying, ‘when in a hole stop digging’.

    Maybe David Rose will soon need to find somewhere else to hang his hat, I doubt it will come to that, but if it did then I am sure The Telegraph would welcome him with open arms.

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