October 2013 Open Thread

Comments

  1. #1 Bernard J.
    October 21, 2013

    No, I hopefully haven’t. Tim told me that the imposter tried to use both of my email accounts to get access. How pathetic.

    Idiot.

    Jeff’s avatar is consistently lavendar, and your troll-associated one is brown. And we know the pattern.

    You’re not fooling anyone but yourself you sick git.

  2. #2 Bernard J.
    October 21, 2013

    …lavender…

  3. #3 bill
    October 21, 2013

    Um, BJ, ‘both my email accounts’? Jeff has 2 avatars…

  4. #4 rhwombat
    October 22, 2013

    Bernard, Frank & wow: I think we’re all a bit disturbed at the sheer intensity of the psychosis of the Insane Clown Troll and what it has done to a once great blog. I’m pretty sure that p3#98 was the real Jeff, despite the reappearance chocolate starfish avatar most recently abused by ICT – which is as it should be when Tim’s in charge. Sitting on the periphery of the NSW fires, I’m hopeful that the conversation can now return to sticking the resultant shit storm about climate change to Toady Rabbott’s invisible gas policy, Greg (“Don’t politicise it”) Hunt and their political masters, George & Rupert. Smoke sticks.

  5. #5 bill
    October 22, 2013

    Agreed!

    And what hypocrites – they were quite happy to try to pin the Brisbane floods on the Greens (*fraudulently), and talkback clowns will happily try to pin this on ‘not enough control burning’ and ‘too much nature generally’, but it’s somehow illegitimate to point out that AGW = hottest 12 month period in our history = raging firestorms? The hell it is!!

    Invisible Gas Man is patently failing in his duty to protect Australians.

    The AGW connection is so painfully obvious it takes a kind of genius not to see it…

  6. #6 Jeff Harvey
    October 22, 2013

    The real me is back and hopefully Kai/Boris/Berendaneke/Joe is gone for good. I was telling my colleages at NIOO about it and they were as bemused as me. Actually, as Bernard said the other day, its telling that none of the regular deniers who post in here made one critical comment about the behavior of the mega-troll.

    Essentially, they share a common pathology which explains their resounding silence. And that pathology is that ‘anything goes’ when it comes to smearing anyone who disagrees with them. They know fully well that science is not on their side and they will support anyone, no matter how obnoxious they are, who denies, denies, denies. Just look at the intellectual level of many (most) of the denier blogs. Climate Depot, Junk Science, Bishop’s Hill, Hockey Schtick, WUWT, CA, Nova, etc.. its primarily sandbox level stuff aimed at idiots. No wonder they get all wound up and end up spreading like q virus all over the blogosphere.

  7. #7 Bernard J.
    October 22, 2013

    Wasn’t that chocolate starfish avatar the one that Kai used to slag off at Jeff?!

    My head hurts…

  8. #8 bill
    October 22, 2013
  9. #9 Wow
    October 22, 2013

    “Bernard, Frank & wow: I think we’re all a bit disturbed at the sheer intensity of the psychosis of the Insane Clown Troll and what it has done to a once great blog.”

    Actually, the blog having nothing can be seen evidenced by the list of latest topics.

    June Open Thread
    July Open Thread
    August Open Thread
    September Open Thread
    October Open Thread

    That’s the entire recent list of topics.

    The blog has nothing on it. That is not a problem in and of itself because the reason for this could be that there’s no time for tim to do anything other than open another thread once a month.

    But it does mean that there’s nothing going on.

    Close it down and/or whitelist a few names until such time as the blog owner has time and topic to put something down on this blog. If it stops until then, all that is lost is

    November Open Thread
    December Open Thread
    January Open Thread
    ….

    I think the climate discussion will survive without that, don’t you?

    Whitelist a few names on and open the threads and they can be “miscellaneous” that may, when time permits, be genesis for a thread that isn’t $MONTH Open Thread. In the meantime there’s less time taken up chasing down the psychotic and dangerous nuts and deleting their criminal postings, therefore more time to end the stuff that is taking time away from doing anything on this blog.

  10. #10 FrankD
    October 22, 2013

    Or we could start talking about climate and such, instead of trolls.

    Which prompts me to ask something of our resident planty people that I’ve been wondering about for a little bit.

    We hear a lot about CO2 as “plant food”, and while I’m aware that there are other limits involved (water, nitrogen etc), it is, to a certain degree, true. There seems to be pretty good evidence that – so far – plants are bulking up a bit in response to elevated CO2, all other things being more or less equal. Not necessarily edible stuff for us like seeds or fruit, but more leaves and stems, which is good for some herbivores, I suppose

    But what I’m wondering about is the extent to which this is good for plant health. Is it axiomatic that more stems and leaves = a fitter plant? Or does the extra – possibly unnecessary biomass – simply take relatively more resources to support, to the detriment of the overall fitness? I’m wondering here if plants putting on weight in response to CO2 isn’t perhaps like humans putting on weight in response to excessive sugar…as we all know a 150 kg human is unlikely to be as healthy as a 75 kg. Is that another aspect in which the “CO2 is plant food” meme misses the point?

    This might have been thrown at some of the resident idiots previously, but I have a habit of skimming over long replies to their stupidosity, so your indulgence is appreciated.

  11. #11 FrankD
    October 22, 2013

    rhwombat – yes point taken, I forgot that Jeff had another real avatar, and probably skimmed over some of his comments during the crisis.

    But personally I doubt much will stick to Misterrabbit or Gre Ghunt. When the fingers are pointed, it will all be the fault of the urban greenies not allowing fuel reduction burns around their tree-change dachas. Its because allocating blame requires that self-righteousness most commonly found in “Outraged Tone-fan of Turramurra”

  12. #12 BBD
    October 22, 2013

    FrankD

    It’s Bernard J we need, but as a placeholder there’s a good overview at SkS – see sections headed “Chemical responses & nutrition” and “Interactions with other species”.

  13. #13 Wow
    October 22, 2013

    “Or we could start talking about climate and such, instead of trolls.”

    Which would be a lot easier if there were a whitelist. No trolls then. No time needed to crawl through the slime to find non-troll content. No bleach needed to remove trollshit. When normal operations can continue, retire the whitelist.

    And it’s not as if there’s nowhere else to discuss climate. SkS for example. Realclimate. FriendsofGinAndTonic if you want a giggle.

  14. #14 Jeff Harvey
    October 22, 2013

    “We hear a lot about CO2 as “plant food”, and while I’m aware that there are other limits involved (water, nitrogen etc), it is, to a certain degree, true. There seems to be pretty good evidence that – so far – plants are bulking up a bit in response to elevated CO2, all other things being more or less equal. Not necessarily edible stuff for us like seeds or fruit, but more leaves and stems, which is good for some herbivores, I suppose”

    I disagree Frank. Its far more complicated than you suggest. Carbon is not generally a limiting nutrient for plants – nitrogen (and phosphorus) are. Herbivores have enough problems getting rid of excess carbon to acquire sufficient N without shunting more of the important limiting nutrients out of plant tissues. What many studies show is that in elevated C regimes herbivores compensate by feeding more. But of course, the ‘plant food’ nonsense also critically ignores other primary plant metabolites as well as secondary metabolites. Many plants that have C based allelochemistry will become more toxic as atmospheric C increases and vice-versa for plants with N-based allelochemistry.

    So the plant-food argument is essentially comic book level science, simplifying a complex array of complex eco-physiological processes down to the lowest common denominator. Its been debunked already many times on Deltoid. Why dredge it up again?

  15. #15 Harry
    October 22, 2013

    Wow

    how should the whitelist be defined?

  16. #16 Wow
    October 22, 2013

    However Tim wants, Harry.

    It’s his blog.

  17. #18 bill
    October 22, 2013

    Interesting article in a recent New Scientist on how extra CO2 was dramatically increasing the extent of vines in tropical and sub-tropical forests, with a cost to be – literally – borne by existing trees. Not likely to end happily.

    Also, a bit extra of something may be a boon, at least for som, whereas a lot extra of something will most likely be a blight all round…

  18. #19 peterd
    Melbourne
    October 23, 2013

    Re: #16 above
    Excellent story, Bernard. Thanks for the link. I have already forwarded it to friends. It makes sobering reading: we are trashing the planet at a scary rate.

  19. #21 FrankD
    October 23, 2013

    Jeff,

    Thanks for the reply – I’m not trying to “dredge it up again”, just to understand one particular aspect of plant physiology, not score a bullshit point. And while I tried to hedge the framing of the question with caveats, obviously I didn’t include enough.

    The point is this: Some of the science mags I read have referred to tropical plants bulking up in response to elevated carbon. My question is whether this additional bulk (to the extent that its even relevant with the complicating factors of changing temperature, humidity, eco-servicing organisms etc) is a generally “good” thing or a “bad” thing (to put it in ridiculously simple terms).

    My analogy is someone who is trying to lose weight will exercise more – this increases muscle bulk: result – more weight, but “healthier” weight. So is additional plant bulk automatically “healthy” or does it place unwanted strains on the plant as a whole, say reducing seed production, building weaker tissues or whatever.

    Clearly not all good news for herbivores, and as bill points out, for the ecosystem as a whole. But my knowledge of plants generally is pretty much limited to bad backyard gardening, so if this is simply too ludicrously simple to be worth addressing, just ignore it – as others have remarked, I can probably find the answers elsewhere. While the question was genuine, it was partly motivated by finding something to talk about other than trollfestations.

  20. #22 Wow
    October 23, 2013

    A problem for plants with merely bulking up is that the production of insecticides from their processes doesn’t increase to the same rate for most plants. Therefore per-unit-eaten by an insect, the plant is less toxic and therefore feeds the insect better.

    Of course, the nutrition may be worse, but they just eat more of it to compensate: they’re resistant to the toxin at higher doses.

    Brassicas often have this property.

  21. #23 Lionel A
    October 23, 2013

    Re Bernard J @ #17

    For those interested in the long, long history of human mining of natural resources these could be an eye opener:

    The Unnatural History of the Sea: The Past and Future of Humanity and Fishing

    and

    Ocean of Life

    will be eye openers.

    No catastrophe looming here folks, move along and go for that new iPhone or iPad – much more fun than reading about real world stuff.

  22. #24 Lionel A
    October 23, 2013

    So the plant-food argument is essentially comic book level science,…

    About the same level of thinking as Bill O’Reilly’s, ‘Tide goes in, tide goes out.’

  23. #25 Jeff Harvey
    October 23, 2013

    Sorry Frank. I guess I was a bit sensitive after having the mega-troll use my name to spread his disinformation.

    My point is that the C02 is plant-food argument is being endlessly used by those intent on a business-as-usual agenda with respect to the use of fossil fuels. Few of them have any pedigree where it counts – trophic interactions and population ecology. What few scientists endorse this crap are generally stuck in labs and have no idea how various processes work in natural systems which are inherently much more complex. They boil down ecology to the lowest common denominator and draw simple linear conclusions on what in reality are immensely complex non-linear processes. Species in nature do not function independently: they interact with others in a dizzying array of ways whose outcomes are difficult to predict. Many of these processes lead to unpredictable (and often nasty) outcomes that are hard to deal with once they have occurred. Essentially, humans are conducting a massive global experiment in the various ways we are assaulting and simplifying nature. Bolstering atmospheric concentrations of greenhouse gases is just another ingredient in the mix. For those intent on driving nature to hell in a hand basket I cringe when I read denier blogs and others forcefully argue – on the basis of limited knowledge – that burning fossil fuels is good for plants and therefore good for nature and people. It is not that simple.

  24. #26 Lionel A
    October 23, 2013

    Oh! My!

    Sou has stirred up the hornets nest, see especially comments whilst pointing out Watts sallying forth on the topic of name calling.

    A UK dendrochronology Robert Wilson has described Mann’s work as ‘a crock of shit’ and Tamsin Edwards (Bristol University) took issue with Mann’s response which included the word ‘denier’.

    I noted that Brad Keyes, although banned at Hot Whopper, tried to comment and via the link to a Richard Tol Tweet we see Tol revealed for exactly what we think him. Another familiar name shows up in that lists of Tweetings and he too reveals himself as not very nice, and to think he shares the same initials with me.

    BTW I have found a new way to lose weight.

    I had a big toe-nail removed on Monday. Hence my relative silence of late.

  25. #27 Lionel A
    October 23, 2013

    Oh! My!

    Sou has stirred up the hornets nest, see especially comments whilst pointing out Watts sallying forth on the topic of name calling.

    A UK dendrochronology Robert Wilson has described Mann’s work as ‘a crock of shit’ and Tamsin Edwards (Bristol University) took issue with Mann’s response which included the word ‘denier’.

    I noted that Brad Keyes, although banned at Hot Whopper, tried to comment and via the link to a Richard Tol Tweet we see Tol revealed for exactly what we think him. Another familiar name shows up in that lists of Tweetings and he too reveals himself as not very nice, and to think he shares the same initials with me.

    BTW I have found a new way to lose weight.

    I had a big toe-nail removed on Monday. Hence my relative silence of late.

    Oh! And somebody is still messing with us.

  26. #28 Lionel A
    October 23, 2013

    Oh! My!

    Sou has stirred up the hornets nest, see especially comments whilst pointing out Watts sallying forth on the topic of name calling.

    A UK dendrochronology Robert Wilson has described Mann’s work as ‘a crock of shit’ and Tamsin Edwards (Bristol University) took issue with Mann’s response which included the word ‘denier’.

    I noted that Brad Keyes, although banned at Hot Whopper, tried to comment and via the link to a Richard Tol Tweet we see Tol revealed for exactly what we think him. Another familiar name shows up in that lists of Tweetings and he too reveals himself as not very nice, and to think he shares the same initials with me.

    BTW I have found a new way to lose weight.

    I had a big toe-nail removed on Monday. Hence my relative silence of late.

    Somebody is still playing with us.

  27. #29 bill
    October 23, 2013

    LA @#23 – you forgot ‘you can’t explain it!’ !

    What a maroon.

    And the BK/LA/DK tag-team is still in action? Who cares?

    No doubt they’ll all run with the Mann called what’s’isname a denier, therefore no AGW meme for years now. Because it’s all they’ve got…

  28. #30 bill
    October 23, 2013

    Speaking of Mann, or, in this case, a Mann’s man ( ;-) ) it may yet be that Kenny Kooky-nelly is fried, not least due to the recent wrecking ball swung randomly by his Tea Party buddies.

    We can but hope!

  29. #32 Sou
    October 24, 2013

    @Lionel A #24 – yeah. I didn’t expect it to generate much interest. I should have known that people like talking about people more than they do about science :)

    It was interesting in that it highlighted some of the factions within the climate science community and paleo community. As well as inter-continental differences – USA vs UK/Europe in regard to cosying up to “skeptics”.

    Now I’m hoping for some ideas on why people engage with contrarians in the first place and what sort of engagement has the biggest payoff.

    http://blog.hotwhopper.com/2013/10/talking-to-contrarians-why-do-you-do-it.html

  30. #33 Timmie
    October 24, 2013

    bill, I want you to express all due respect to the Prime Minister of Australia

  31. #34 bill
    October 24, 2013

    I do.

  32. #35 Timmie
    October 24, 2013

    Sou, you said: “Now I’m hoping for some ideas on why people engage with contrarians in the first place and what sort of engagement has the biggest payoff”

    I can tell you, why some alarmists, not that many, are intestested to engage with contrarians: simply because alarmists are desperate why their message is not liked and accepted by more and more people

  33. #36 bill
    October 24, 2013

    Gee, guess who’s back?

  34. #37 Jeff Harvey
    October 24, 2013

    Yes, Bill, the asylum has opened its doors again. Its never ending.

  35. #38 Bernard J.
    October 24, 2013

    Break out the Acyclovir.

  36. #39 Olaus Petri
    October 24, 2013

    Fellas, no need to worry, I’m ok. I am one of the lucky ones that escaped the lethal effects of global warming in Stockholm. ;-)

    Given the high scientific quality of the study I’m a bit surprised that Jeff’ isn’t a co-author.

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/10/24/claim-climate-change-caused-more-deaths-in-stockholm/#comments

  37. #40 Richard Simons
    October 24, 2013

    FrankD: The ‘bulking up’ of plants as a result of increased CO2 is probably not as great as is generally supposed. At least in many grasses, vegetative shoots typically have two fully-expanded leaves and a third leaf emerging. Old leaves die at the same rate as new leaves are produced. As I recall (and it’s been a long time since I looked at the literature), environmental factors affect the rate of turnover of leaves and also the size of individual leaves, but not the number of leaves on a shoot, limiting the increase in living plant mass. Other herbaceous plants probably respond similarly.

    I’ve been frequently looking at the comments here, but in the last two or three years the ‘arguments’ of the climate change deniers have become increasingly silly and ignorable.

  38. #41 Lionel A
    October 24, 2013

    Sou @ #30,

    What that pantomime with Tamsin Edwards tells me, but I could be wrong, is that many scientists, especially perhaps the younger ones in the UK, have little knowledge of how the denial machine works and who belongs to it.

    Perhaps Tamsin should have a word with Andrew Weaver, although I don’t think the poster of that clip sees that which we we do.

  39. #42 rhwombat
    October 24, 2013

    Bugger. Now is the summer of our discontent made malodorous by the prating of fools: The Invisible Gas Man licks his lizard lips in every photo op, Greg ‘wikipaedia is my guide’ Hunt bares his bum on BBC, the NPR herpes troll is back (as Timmeh!), and the OIly Rock is regurgitating WTFUWT crap. Oh well, back to pointing and laughing.

  40. #43 bill
    October 24, 2013

    Oily, no-one even mentioned the Scandinavian situation – in case you haven’t noticed, we have problems of our own – so your link to merry Willard Tony’s is just pure, gratuitous, pointless spamming, now isn’t it?

    And Jeff really does rile ALL you muppets up, doesn’t he? It’s because he’s a successful scientist, isn’t it? You hate them worse than anything, don’t you?

  41. #44 Bernard J.
    October 25, 2013

    On this afternoon’s episode of The World Today Will Stephen put the boot into Greg Hunt and Tony Abbott for trying to dissociate bushfire risk and severity from the fact of climate change. Hunt’s response was to concede that there was a link, but to effectively say that we shouldn’t do anything about it – and especially by putting a market price on the pollution that causes climate change. The audio for the story should be up within a day, so I’ll link to it soon.

    On the same subject, the Climate Council sent this today:

    Dear Bernard J,

    We’ve been busy this week explaining the relationship between climate change and bushfires in the media. Today, analysis from Climate Councillors Lesley Hughes and Will Steffen was reported on the front page of The Age.

    Many of you emailed us with questions about the bushfires, and the impacts of climate change on extreme weather events. So, we’re holding a live video briefing and Q&A on bushfires with Climate Councillor Prof. Lesley Hughes this Monday at 6.30pm.

    You can submit your questions by simply replying to this emailinfo@climatecouncil.org.au. Please don’t hesitate to invite friends or family to join too.

    Over the last three decades, extreme bushfire weather has increased in southern parts of Australia, especially in the southeast. As the conditions of our climate system change, we are experiencing more hot, dry days that increase the risk of bushfires.

    Climate Councillors Prof Hughes and Prof Will Steffen are currently developing a report on the link between bushfires and extreme weathers. It will be released early November and you will be the first to get a copy.

    Until then, read and share the bushfire information section on our website: http://www.climatecouncil.org.au/bushfire-information/

    Our thoughts are with families and communities affected by the fires.

    Yours,

    Tim Flannery – for the Climate Council team

    PS – We know many of you will have friends, colleagues and family who also have questions about the fires.

    Please, share this email with them and invite them to go to http://www.climatecouncil.org.au to tune in to our live Q&A this Monday Oct 28th, 6.30pm.

  42. #45 Bernard J.
    October 25, 2013

    Lionel:

    For those interested in the long, long history of human mining of natural resources these could be an eye opener:

    The Unnatural History of the Sea: The Past and Future of Humanity and Fishing

    and

    Ocean of Life

    will be eye openers.

    BBD and I mentioned those very same volumes last month:

    http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2013/09/08/september-2013-open-thread/#comment-169572

    They’re not easy reading – a “gird-the-loins” warning is advised…

  43. #46 bill
    October 25, 2013

    Well, I’ve got ‘Unnatural History’ as an audiobook, and it’s not easy listening, either!

  44. #47 bill
    October 25, 2013

    Oh, and BJ, I wonder how many founder-members of the CC – such as you and I – asked them to kick-back at Abbott and Hunt’s embarrassingly ignorant assertions in the Council’s recent survey?

  45. #48 Bernard J.
    October 25, 2013

    Bill:

    I wonder how many founder-members of the CC – such as you and I – asked them to kick-back at Abbott and Hunt’s embarrassingly ignorant assertions in the Council’s recent survey?

    I certainly did – it seems that they were listening.

    And on matters political, this is up on the ABC’s Vote Compass:

    http://votecompass.com/images/au-2013/auspol-twitterverse.jpg

    It’s very interesting to see that the left is far more technology-savvy, and it’s also interesting to trawl through and see from where the noise is coming in each sector. It seems to reflect the Australian body politic more generally – there are many more smart and engaged progressives than there are conservatives, but the conservatives influence a huge herd of silent dimwits who swallow their right-wing ideological propaganda and vote accordingly.

    In Australia one doesn’t need substantive policy and intelligence, one needs simply to be able to pipe to the lemmings.

  46. #49 rhwombat
    October 25, 2013

    Dear Kai/Freddy/Berandaneke/Boris/Joe/ClownSockTroll/ Underpants Gnome of Montreaux /Insane Clown Troll/ NPD Troll/ Herpes Troll / Timmeh!
    Fuck off.

  47. #50 bill
    October 25, 2013

    While ‘Timmie’ is giving an outstanding example of intelligence, of course. Not to mention ethics.

    (Well, representative, certainly…)

  48. #51 Bernard J.
    October 25, 2013

    Sock Puppeteer.

    By your very postings here you make me seem a veritable genius by comparison.

    Faint self-praise, no doubt, as your would make a pithed and pickled cane toad seem intelligent by comparison with yourself, but nevertheless true praise for that.

    Let’s just chalk up your reply as a big quod erat demonstrandum

  49. #52 Lionel A
    October 25, 2013

    I see that John Mashey has dropped by the comments at Sou’s Anthony Watts is finally back to his field of expertise, with help with some meat on Salby which throws ill light on WUWT and BH.

    Thank you again John.

    The promotion of a forthcoming talk by Murray Salby by one
    ScottishSceptic (our old friend Latimer Alder perhaps?) sheds similar bad light on the whole sorry circus of those in de Nile.

    The tale of Salby changing the subject of his talk at a conference without warning is another marker for how devious some of those in denial can be.

  50. #53 Stu
    October 25, 2013

    Okay, that’s it. Not only are my comments being moderated, they’re not even making it out. Consider this my GBCW. If anyone can suggest a more actively and properly moderated blog to continue the discussion, I’ll monitor this thread for a few more days.

  51. #54 BBD
    October 25, 2013

    As per, the “sceptics” will grab anything in their desperate quest for sciencey-sounding legitimacy. Who cares that Salby’s arguments are incorrect so long as they keep the congregation happy? And perhaps confuse the public a little into the bargain.

    Clearly the Scottish Sceptic is misnomered and Andrew Montford has no understanding of the material he is promoting. Which is, or should be, very damaging to his credibility.

    The BBC should ask him about this next time he’s on.

  52. #55 Ian Forrester
    October 25, 2013

    Lionel, the Scottish “skeptic” is a loon named Mike Haseler. The talk in Scotland is supported by an organization called “Science, Climate and Energy Forum”. They have been touted by O’Sullivan of Sky Dragon fame.

    They recently hosted another talk given by someone called Emil Royrvik. His “paper” has been circulated on Tall Bloke’s site, it has been Curried and it also appears on O’Sullivan’s PSI site. It is well known that AGW deniers deny many things including the effects of ozone, HIV/AIDS etc. However, Royrvik denies a couple of interesting things (at least interesting to me since I am Scottish).

    He denies the Highland Clearances and he denies that the Celts were ever in Scotland. His “paper” is entitled “Consensus and Controversy” and was paid for by Det Norske, a Norwegian oil company.

  53. #56 chek
    October 25, 2013

    Good intelligence Ian.
    Let’s hope he’s blessed with the proverbial one man and his dog for an audience.

  54. #57 Bernard J.
    October 26, 2013

    KFBBJT…

    Face it, you’re the least intelligent person to post on Deltoid, although for that dubious honour it’s a close race with the various incarnations of Sunspot.

    It eats away at your soul, doesn’t it?

  55. #58 bill
    October 26, 2013

    It’s multiplying!

  56. #59 Bernard J.
    October 26, 2013

    He’s (more than) a little lame with a lot to learn…

  57. #60 Bernard J.
    October 26, 2013

    For those without small children, and who may have missed the reference

  58. #61 Bernard J.
    October 26, 2013

    Who else than tofal idiots like you believe in all this eco dirt

    97%+ of the world’s professional climatologists.

    And I say “+” because at least some of the “sceptical” scientists know in their hearts that human-caused global warming is a fact of physics, but money and/or ideology prevent them from admitting it to themselves and to others.

  59. #62 Bernard J.
    October 26, 2013

    Tell me KFBBJT, why do you feel the need to use so many poorly-disguised sock puppets?

  60. #63 Bernard J.
    October 26, 2013

    to more than blah blah blah your senile brain is apparently not able

    Why, it’s Master Yada.

    To meet you, a pleasure it’s not.

  61. #64 rhwombat
    October 26, 2013

    The herpes troll syndrome is in the process of defining itself. It fulfils Koch’s postulates and should be considered as a virtual pathogen. This outbreak will follow will follow a predictable course of the overt demonstration of early adolescent aversive behaviour, empty abuse and verbal masturbation. The dysfunctionality will escalate until banning, then reinfect with a new identity but no more insight into it’s pathetic lack of identification with human feeling. It has nothing else, so it sits in the corner and screams abuse in the desperate attempt to connect with anything that gives a damn about it. Its assessment of itself as intelligent is hampered by the fact that it inhabits a world of its own, with no one else to care. Poor troll.

  62. #65 Marco
    October 26, 2013

    Ian, Røyrvik also has some interesting opinions on 9/11. Let me just say that he isn’t quite convinced it was Al Qaeda that was responsible…

  63. #66 Lionel A
    October 26, 2013

    RHW

    Poor troll.

    Indeed, what a sad comment on the ability of humans to breed such stupid pointless life. Life that thinks it is clever to continue ‘DOS’ (Service Unavailable…) attacks and using smelly socks.

    This one has elements of The Lambton Worm, or maybe given all the socks The Hydra.

    I doubt that Climate Desperate, Cardinal Puff or the Bast*** would stoop to using such a creature as this, one who thinks its smart to use the foulest of language and plaster posts with emoticons, too much negative publicity if a connection were proven. Although the last mentioned above does not seem to know where to draw the line with that sort of stuff.

  64. #67 Lionel A
    October 26, 2013

    Ian,

    He denies the Highland Clearances…

    Amazing that, for a Scot, unless of course his ancestor’s were allied to the Duke & Duchess of Sutherland.

    In my treks across Scotland during the 1960s [1] I came across many a tumbled settlement. Maybe Royrvik is ignorant about those too.

    [1[, Cairngorms (Ryvoan Lodge, Ben MacDui etc.), Glen Esk, Glen Clova (old Fairey Albacore crashed there), Glen Quiche (Ogilvy Land), Glen Nevis (walked from Dalwhinnie along Loch Ericht, staying overnight at Ben Alder Cottage and via Loch Ossian, Loch Treig into Glen Nevis down to Polldubh another bothy. This latter in those days was adjacent to the road-bridge then known as Thunderclap Bridge due to the noise made by traffic disturbing the timber beams of the road bed, the bridge has since been demolished and another built about 3/4 mile upstream. Also Glen Coe a num,ber of times (took a tumble down the north slope of the Buachaille Etive Mòr when a glissade went wrong). The Clachaig Inn has changed out of all recognition since those days too.

  65. #68 Lionel A
    October 26, 2013

    News of a new report ‘Extreme Weather Events in Europe: preparing for climate change adaptation‘ at Real Climate.

    What a bummer that all those deniers and delayers have held up mitigation such that we have to try to adapt to the shit that is coming our way, and more especially the way of our grandchildren. This as we prepare to batten the hatches as a storm approaches from the Atlantic.

  66. #69 Timmie
    October 26, 2013

    1

    THE ESA GLOBALBEDO PROJECT FOR MAPPING THE EARTH’S LAND SURFACE ALBEDO FOR 15 YEARS FROM EUROPEAN SENSORS.

    Jan-Peter Muller, Gerardo López, Gill Watson, Neville Shane, Tom Kennedy, Peter Yuen (1)
    P. Lewis (2), Jürgen Fischer, Luis Guanter, Carlos Domench, Réné Preusker (3) Peter North, Andreas Heckel (4); Olaf Danne, Uwe Krämer, Marco Zühlke, Carsten Brockmann (5), Simon Pinnock (6)

    (1) Mullard Space Science Laboratory, Dept. of Space & Climate Physics; (2) Dept. of Geography, University College London, UK
    (3) Institut für Weltraumwissenschaften, Freie Universität Berlin, Germany (4) Department of Geography, Swansea University, UK
    (5) Brockmann Consult, Geesthacht, Germany
    (6) ESA-ESRIN, Frascati, Italy

    1. GLOBALBEDO PROCESSING AND SAMPLES

    A land surface broadband albedo map of the entire Earth’s land surface (snow and snow-free) is required for use in Global Climate Model initialisation and verification. A group of 10 users have been selected to work with the GlobAlbedo* Implementation team to define requirements and drive the project towards practical applications of the product. These requirements defined the need to generate a final product on 8-daily at spatial resolutions of 1km in sinusoidal projection using the MODIS 10o x 10o tiling scheme and 0.05o and 0.5o on monthly time-steps.

    To generate such a global map by temporal compositing requires both sufficient directional looks and the very precise correction of top-of-atmosphere radiances to “at surface” directional reflectances (SDRs). In addition, such a map requires precise radiometric calibration and inter-calibration of different sensors [1] and the computation of radiative transfer coefficients to derive broadband SDRs from different input narrowband SDRs and given sufficient angular sampling from all the directional looks within a given temporal window, derive a suitable BRDF. This BRDF can be integrated to produce DHR (Direct Hemispherical Reflectance known as “black-sky”) and BHR (BiHemispherical Reflectance, known as “white-sky”) [2]. The final albedo product has been integrated in three spectral broadband ranges, namely the solar spectrum shortwave (400-3000nm), the visible PAR region (400-700nm) and the near- and shortwave-infrared (700-3000nm). In addition, maps of normalized difference vegetation index (NDVI) and the fraction of absorbed photosynthetically active radiation (fAPAR) will be generated consistent with the albedo product to complement the Globalbedo data set for analysis of vegetation-related processes [3].
    To achieve the aim of deriving independent estimates using European only assets, GlobAlbedo set out to create a 15 year time series by employing SPOT4-VEGETATION and SPOT5-VEGETATION2 as well as MERIS. Legacy algorithms for deriving SDRs using an optimal estimation approach are outlined [2] as well as a novel system for gap-filling using ten year mean estimates derived from equivalent BRDFs from MODIS [2]. Each and every output pixel albedo value has an estimated uncertainty associated with it and the corresponding BRDF a full uncertainty matrix for each pixel. Separate BRDFs are computed for snow and snow-free pixels and combined together to yield a gap-free dataset. An example of a sample output product browse in Figure 1 shows the BHR and the coefficient of variation derived from the uncertainty divided by the expectation value (loc.cit.)

    Animations of 8-daily and monthly browse products including the full-resolution 1km tiles are available on the website for the products available to date (2005, 2009, 2010 and the first 6 months of 2011). An OGC-compliant server based on OpenLayers also allows display of global data and inter-comparison by flickering from one date with another. Global data at 0.05o and 0.5o, as well as individual tiles at 1km, can be downloaded using wget and scripts can be easily written by the user to harvest the data they require. A novel facility is the ability to extract a single pixel or a group of 3 x 3 or 5 x 5 pixels in CSV format through time for immediate plotting locally.

    2. GLOBALBEDO VALIDATION

    Extensive validation has been performed on final GlobAlbedo product for each and every year that correlative data is available. Shown here from [4], in Figure 2 is an example of a time series plot of Blue-Sky albedo from GlobAlbedo, MODIS priors, MODIS Collection 5 and MISR measurements. Uncertainties calculated from within the product [2] are shown for GlobAlbedo and MISR. For a desert bare rock site (upper panel), the GlobAlbedo product shows reasonable agreement with the other EO datasets and with the tower measurements. The differences shown at the year start may be related to spatial variability of the site (loc.cit.). The Toravere site like most BSRN sites is not chosen for its spatial homogeneity but rather it’s location close to a suitable laboratory. It has a high degree of spatial variability and almost all BSRN are in this category. In addition, unlike the SURFRAD tower albedometer at 30m with a 100m footprint, Toravere albedometers are at 5m above the surface with a 5m footprint so rendering them unhelpful for the purpose of validating spaceborne-derived land surface albedo. The time series shown for Travere shows a common phenomenon for the more than 80 sites worldwide which have been employed to date, related to the effect of snow in winter. Due to very different fields of view of the local albedometer and the 1km EO-derived equivalent values, snow albedo values from EO are typically 50% of the ones retrieved from local albedometers. In this case, GlobAlbedo appears to be slightly more sensitive to the snow values but this is not necessarily typical.

    3. GLOBALBEDO PROSPECTS

    The GlobAlbedo data production at UCL-MSSL takes around 3 weeks per output year and produces around 1.5Tb (uncompressed) output. This is running flat-out on a 10-blade (160-core) linux cluster with 48gb of RAM and 1Tb local disk. The processing requires 100Tb of scratch-space to keep all input and output products online. An extensive Product User Manual is available from the website. Currently the production is expect to be completed for the Envisat time period by October 2012 with products being loaded after visual inspection of the browse products and validation using extensive tower-based data and similar EO datasets, including METEOSAT. In the next phase, a variety of different users will assess the impact of the product, and the use of the estimated uncertainties on their particular application.

    4. REFERENCES CITED

    [1] D. Potts, S. Mackin, J-P. Muller, N. Fox (2012). Satellite Sensor Intercalibration over Dome C: Application of QA4EO principles to the ESA GlobAlbedo Project. IGARSS 2012 (this conference)

    [2] GlobAlbedo_ATBD_V3.0 (2011). GlobAlbedo: Algorithm Theoretical Basis Document. Authors: P. Lewis, C. Brockmann, O. Danne, J. Fischer, L. Guanter, A. Heckel, O. Krueger, G. López, J-P. Muller, P. North, D. Potts, R. Preusker. Available from http://www.GlobAlbedo.org/

    [3] Pinty, B., Jung, M., Kaminski, T., Lavergne, T., Mund, M., Plummer, S., Thomas, E., Widlowski, J.L., 2011. Evaluation of the JRC-TIP 0.01° products over a mid-latitude deciduous forest site. Remote Sens. Environ. 115, 3567-3581.

    [4] Muller, J.-P., Lopez, G., Shane, N.S., Danne, O., Brockmann, C., Krämer, U., Zühlke, M., Heckel, A., North, P.R., Domench, C., Guanter, L., Fischer, J., Wang, Z., Schaapman-Strub, G., Cescatti, A., 2012. GlobAlbedo Test Product Validation Report, available from http://www.globalbedo.org/docs/GlobAlbedo_TPVR_V2_2.pdf . UCL- MSSL, 92pp.

  67. #70 Stu
    October 27, 2013

    Seems I’m out of the dungeon for now. Did my theory on the troll’s Berend* puppet ever make it out of moderation in time for anyone to notice?

    Oh, and I can’t resist…

    Koch’s postulates

    Would those be the Koch brother’s postulates? (Tee hee, etc)

  68. #71 rhwombat
    October 27, 2013

    Chuckle. Welcome back Stu – & no, the identifier of tuberculosis, cholera and anthrax may have been a strange bloke, but to tar him with the sins of Cheney’s choke chain holders is too mean for poor old Robert.

    A better analogy would be John Hunter – who inoculated several people (including himself) with gonorrhoeal pus to try to prove that it caused the symptoms of syphilis – unfortunately the inoculum was from a patient who had both gonorrhoea & syphilis. Such was his personal authority, that this confused the issue of what agent caused which disease for several decades in anglophone medicine – though the French worked it out correctly, by careful clinical observation over time. I wonder whether the Francophone denialist industry is as potent as the Anglophone one?.

  69. #72 ianam
    October 27, 2013

    Is that another aspect in which the “CO2 is plant food” meme misses the point?

    Yes. It would be an incredible fluke of nature if a rapid global change in environment for plants or any other organism had a net beneficial effect by any measure, since evolution is a recording, of sorts, of environmental history, and organisms are adapted to that set of environments. And the only reason to even hope for such a beneficial effect is to use it as a denier talking point … that is, even if there were such a coincidental net beneficial consequence to plants and their ecologies from increased CO2, it wouldn’t nearly compensate for the numerous severe negative consequences of the increase.

  70. #73 ianam
    October 27, 2013

    John Hunter – who inoculated several people (including himself) with gonorrhoeal pus to try to prove that it caused the symptoms of syphilis – unfortunately the inoculum was from a patient who had both gonorrhoea & syphilis.

    Or not:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hunter_(surgeon)#Self-experimentation

  71. #74 rhwombat
    King Coal's Sphincter, NSW
    October 27, 2013

    ianam@#72:
    Following Greg Hunt’s example (http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/greg-hunt-uses-wikipedia-research-to-dismiss-links-between-climate-change-and-bushfires-20131023-2w1w5.html ) is seldom a good idea:
    http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/41/1/128.2.full.pdf+html

    I’m an Infectious Diseases physician. I was raised on the cautionary tale of Hunter’s deeply flawed experimentalism – including the point that germ theory was as contentious as climate change when Hunter was publishing. Even today, the observational ‘science’ of medical practice is orders of magnitude less well founded than climate science, yet most view medicine as beyond reproach. Thank Dog the antivaxers & HIV deniers are not still funded by Big Energy, even if the whole denial industry cut its teeth on tobacco.

  72. #75 Lionel A
    October 27, 2013

    Bernard J #45 on books by Prof. Callum Roberts:

    BBD and I mentioned those very same volumes last month:…

    Indeed, sorry, it was from your citation that I picked up on these two, and very glad, or saddened because it confirms other knowledge, to have done so.

    For anybody with doubts as to how serious things are getting with climate change being a multiplier of such problems then you really need some serious study sessions.

    Meanwhile, as a diversion, some of those little Maltese boats called ‘Strong>dghajjes‘, pronounced dice-ohs, three of which I captured whilst they were sculling around Ark Royal waiting for trade in Valletta harbour in late 1970. Clearly, the owner of the nearest one was yet to feel the Dom Mintoff, anti-colonial and pro Gaddafi, effect.

    Those Photoshop filters don’t always end up with a reasonable end effect but this pleases me. I have not aired this one in public before.

  73. #76 ianam
    October 27, 2013

    Following Greg Hunt’s example

    Don’t be stupid. I gave that Wikipedia link because it cites the very link you gave as reference #18 … a link that calls your assertion into question.

  74. #77 ianam
    October 27, 2013

    I was raised on …

    Perhaps that is why you didn’t even bother to read your own link:

    SIR—I thank Dr. Gladstein [1] for his kind words. His point is well taken. Although informed speculation in the writing of history is unavoidable, I should have more carefully distinguished between fact and conjecture.

    You could learn to do the same … a good way to start is to read the rest of that exchange. As I said, “or perhaps not”. Unlike the links between climate change and bush fires, your claims about Hunter are not well established from the evidence.

  75. #78 ianam
    October 27, 2013

    And to be clear, I am referring specifically to this assertion in all its details:

    John Hunter – who inoculated several people (including himself) with gonorrhoeal pus to try to prove that it caused the symptoms of syphilis – unfortunately the inoculum was from a patient who had both gonorrhoea & syphilis

    I am not responding to the general charge that Hunter engaged in “deeply flawed experimentalism”.

  76. #79 ianam
    October 27, 2013

    BTW, the notion that using Wikipedia “is seldom a good idea” is stupid and ignorant. Hunt’s problem is not that he used Wikipedia, but that he made the idiotic strawman “there have always been bush fires/storms/high and low temperatures/etc.” argument that is a staple of deniers.

  77. #80 rhwombat
    October 28, 2013

    Um, ianam – WTF?

    I will cop to be trying too hard to establish a conversation after recurrent troll strike, but I was attempting to be flippant, even if it was about a Scots secular saint. You did not post “or perhaps not”, you said “Or not:”.

    I was attempting to riff on Stu’s neat pun about Koch/Kochs, then (perhaps, over-) extending a metaphor about a subject that I am reasonably familiar with, independent of the rather confusing & poorly edited wikipedia entry.

    Hunter’s work in the 18th century is regarded by those of us who practice, research and teach medicine as both seminal and deeply flawed. Hunter & his contemporaries (eg Jenner) did some very disturbing things which are popularly cited as being breakthroughs, but when examined through the retrospectoscope of both current medicine and/or science (and the historiography of available primary documents) are textbook examples (literally) of how not to do science on humans – and are taught as such. I actually took part in some of the debate after the original paper and correspondence in CID (and other journals) in the mid 2005, and have reviewed as much of the primary material as I can find, and I have no doubt that Hunter did experiments which even he was ashamed of in the service of his own prejudices and standing. This is something not even Lindzen can be accused of, despite the overtness of his denial.

    Please be careful with the terms stupid & ignorant: even in Blog science they should probably reserved for overt trolls (like Timmeh!), as evidenced by the Wilson /Mann brouhaha.

  78. #81 bill
    October 28, 2013

    Agreed.

    Given that he’s not known for being conciliatory, this is where I pop in and remind Ianam that IIRC he’s not supposed to be here on health grounds.

  79. #82 Bernard J.
    October 28, 2013

    Following up on my post last week, this is the Will Steffen interview:

    http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2013/s3876936.htm

    Note the little addendum from Greg Hunt. History will not judge him kindly at all, and his kids and grandkids will be embarrassed to have the internet archiving his stupidity so remorselessly…

  80. #83 ianam
    October 28, 2013

    You did not post “or perhaps not”, you said “Or not:”.

    Oh gee, what a critical difference. So “A or not A” differs exactly how from “A or perhaps not A”?

    Please be careful with the terms stupid

    Look, jackass, you practically called me a denier by stupidly likening my use of Wikipedia to that of Greg Hunt. Your response was completely and utterly stupid. Have you even read your link yet? The correspondents there pretty much agreed that there is no evidentiary basis to think that Hunter inoculated himself. Why are you stupidly blathering on about his work being “deeply flawed” when I just said that I wasn’t challenging that, only your specific claim? That, and your “wtf” shows that you’re too busy blabbering to bother to read carefully … that’s pretty stupid, as is your intellectually dishonest notion that words like “stupid” should be “reserved” for only certain persons, rather than being applied whenever they fit.

  81. #84 ianam
    October 28, 2013

    Given that he’s not known for being conciliatory, this is where I pop in and remind Ianam that IIRC he’s not supposed to be here on health grounds.

    I have no idea wtf you’re on about, and even if I did I wouldn’t be interested in your condescending “reminder”. I do think I’ve mentioned several times what a wasted effort it is to argue with the Deltoid trolls, who are among the most stupid people on the planet, but that’s not what I’m doing, now am I?

  82. #85 ianam
    October 28, 2013

    P.S.

    Please be careful with the terms stupid & ignorant: even in Blog science they should probably reserved for overt trolls (like Timmeh!), as evidenced by the Wilson /Mann brouhaha.

    Do you seriously think that anything that goes on here has anything like the import and reach of the Mann/Wilson/Edwards/Betts/WUWT/BH/practically everybody brouhaha? When you reach the stature and importance of Mann and I start posting about you, or my tweets about you are featured, at WUWT (http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/10/21/paleoscientist-manns-recent-work-was-a-crock-of-xxxx/), then I can begin to remotely take that seriously.

  83. #86 bill
    October 28, 2013

    [sigh]

  84. #87 ianam
    October 28, 2013

    Yes, sigh away, Bill. You already knew what to expect from me, so why would did you expect something different? Now try refuting me on substance, eh?

  85. #88 rhwombat
    October 28, 2013

    OK ianam. I fully concede that I lack your substantiveness, comprehension skills and sense of humour, and am truly stupid and ignorant in my own field, not to mention overly sarcastic and not a little too fond of litotes. I most humbly apologise for my sins, and prostrate myself at the feet of the master . Can we go troll baiting again?

  86. #89 Wow
    October 28, 2013

    inane really likes to strut, rhwombat.

  87. #90 BBD
    October 28, 2013

    It does seem to me as though we’re all a tad frayed after the enforced encounter with a diseased mind. It’s not exactly surprising. Being raved at incessantly for weeks by a an ocean-going, copper-bottomed nutter is going to leave its mark. Hopefully it will wear off soon.

    * * *

    I trust my fellow Poms survived the crazy weather last night? Chek? Lionel A? You must have got it fairly bad Lionel.

  88. #91 Lionel A
    October 28, 2013

    You must have got it fairly bad Lionel….

    Aye it blew a bit, but for this ‘once copper-bottomed ocean going nutter’ (joke) worse was experience at sea. Try a Force 12 whilst steaming through the Pentland Firth as on the old Ark Royal (one with cats and traps), for one. Even a big ship like that was bouncing around enough to train astronauts in weightlessness. But the old Ark took a more severe pounding whilst off the US Eastern Seaboard in early 1972, with decks bent up crushing ships boats and long splits in the hull from a huge swell on the for’ard port quarter.

    But then I was here in Southern England for that October 87 – the Michael Fish – Hurricane. I was working into the early hours on school work, marking and preparations whilst hearing the garden being progressively torn to bits.

    Then there was the one in early 1990. I was working in Southampton, doing a spell at contract software development. I was in the process of building an expansion for my home computer and walked across The Avenue in Southampton on my way to Maplin to get components, assorted resistors, capacitors, diodes and ICs etc. There were numerous chestnuts along the avenue, as there were in the grounds of the college where my office was in the computer section, numbers of which had come down as well as loads of branches whilst I was over in Maplin.

    Our house suffered more during that 1990 storm with a hole in the roof.

    We escaped this time but many didn’t it would seem, sadly.

  89. #92 rhwombat
    October 28, 2013

    Um… #88 has been altered from what I posted. Are we being hacked?

  90. #93 Turboblocke
    October 28, 2013

    Strangely enough Dungerness nuclear power station has had to shut down 2 reactors thanks to the storm… and I thought that nuke’s were supposed to be reliable and predictable…

  91. #94 Olaus Petri
    October 28, 2013

    Ianam:

    “I do think I’ve mentioned several times what a wasted effort it is to argue with the Deltoid trolls, who are among the most stupid people on the planet, but that’s not what I’m doing, now am I?”

    Yes it is Ianam. :-)

  92. #95 BBD
    October 28, 2013

    #92 RHW

    Your comment has been altered? Then yes, hackery seems likely. Someone better tell Tim. Straight away.

  93. #96 Lionel A
    October 28, 2013

    and I thought that nuke’s were supposed to be reliable and predictable…
    They are, like any other source of power when redundancy is built into the wider system.

    This is is why I am not too enamoured with the UK’s projected Hinckley Point C, one on its own is goping to solve zilch. Also other nuclear should be built using other formats. There are some mature candidates one of which was initially explored by a joint UK-US/Canadian effort but which the UK had to divest from when UK Energy policy – NETA – made it uneconomical. That is not a detailed examination of the issues that raised themselves, suffice it to say it was from a lack of joined up thinking by our leaders.

  94. #97 Lionel A
    October 28, 2013

    B…..!

    and I thought that nuke’s were supposed to be reliable and predictable…

    They are, like any other source of power when redundancy is built into the wider system.

    Whilst making corrections, one to my #75 above:

    Maltese boats called‘dghajjes‘,

  95. #98 bill
    October 28, 2013

    Don’t mention the war!…

    Um, regarding a hack, it wouldn’t appear to have been perpetrated by the most likely suspect, because the resulting text is rather too literate and coherent.

    How substantial was the alteration?

    Speaking of substance… [sigh] if I’m not arguing with you – rather I’m challenging characteristic behaviours – then there’s no ‘subtance’ I’m obliged to address, is there? Oh Logical One.

  96. #99 bill
    October 28, 2013

    I’ve got Tim’s email at home, but I’m not there. Is Jeff around?

  97. #100 Bernard J.
    October 29, 2013

    Here’s a site I haven’t seen previously:

    http://treealerts.org/australia/

    Found it whilst doing some background searching about political conflict-of-interest:

    http://treealerts.org/type/alerts/2013/10/vested-interests-complicate-carbon-price-repeal/