December 2013 Open thread

More thread.

Comments

  1. #1 Turboblocke
    December 30, 2013

    The research ship became trapped when ice pushed by strong winds surrounded the vessel, according to an Australian professor who helped organize the trip.

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/ship-trapped-antartica-icebreaker-fails-2969114

  2. #2 BBD
    December 30, 2013

    Good post by Sou on the pathological malice directed by Watts at scientists. Madness everywhere you look.

  3. #3 Betula
    December 30, 2013

    “Ah! So Betty joins the Ugly Bunch”

    Do you really think I would join up with the likes of Barney, who would like to watch people be beaten simply because he believes they may not share his vision of the future?

    Incomprehensible!

  4. #4 Stu 2
    December 30, 2013

    BBD @ # 96 previous page:
    ” What I wrote is not, by any stretch of the imagination, a conspiracy theory.”

    I disagree BBD.
    It fits on a number of levels especially in regard to secret plans to misdirect and suspicious, tainted funding.
    But please do explain why you don’t think your comments and Lionel’s comments could not possibly, by any stretch of the imagination, be considered as advancing a ‘conspiracy theory’ in a similar manner to your criticism of Betula’s comments.
    Incidentally, whether I choose to use HTML or not is totally irrelevant and indicates absolutely nothing at all about anything at all.

  5. #5 BBD
    December 31, 2013

    I disagree BBD.
    It fits on a number of levels especially in regard to secret plans to misdirect and suspicious, tainted funding.

    So, explain the purpose of Donors Trust to us. Bearing in mind that something demonstrated in evidence is not a conspiracy theory.

    Then read this carefully.

    When you have finished, explain where I veer into conspiracy theory.

  6. #6 Stu
    December 31, 2013

    whether I choose to use HTML or not is totally irrelevant and indicates absolutely nothing at all about anything at all.

    Au contraire, it shows you are lazy, incompetent and/or trolling.

    From your previous behavior, “all three” seems a safe bet.

  7. #7 ianam
    December 31, 2013

    ianam: I think that’s a poor example

    It’s a wise decision.

    it still allows for a “moderators are paid stooges” copout

    Stu, as I’ve observed before, you aren’t rational about these things. Deniers will always find copouts of all sorts. What matters is what decent human beings think, not what denier sludge claims. We would all be far better off if all media organizations immediately implemented a policy of banning demonstrable lies … the results from the organizations that have done so show this.

  8. #8 Stu 2
    December 31, 2013

    Yes that’s correct BBD:
    ” Bearing in mind that something demonstrated in evidence is not a conspiracy theory.”
    Well done!

  9. #9 adelady
    December 31, 2013

    Oh my giddy aunt! What a shame we don’t have The Australian’s War on Science going any more. Though I suppose this is really the new government’s war on science – now we know why they abolished the science ministry, couldn’t be seen to be attacking one of their own, could they.

    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/dec/31/tony-abbotts-top-business-adviser-accuses-ipcc-of-dishonesty-and-deceit

    I know Maurice Newman’s not a scientist but he’s supposed to be a business whizz kid. Surely he listens to technical experts – or at least risk management people – when important decisions are in question. Or does he read blogs that only tell him what he wants to hear even then?

  10. #10 Lotharsson
    December 31, 2013

    Deniers will always find copouts of all sorts.

    Indeed. Which is why the world would be better if news organisations refused to print demonstrable lies.

    FWIW, that’s precisely how various elements promoting the “Right” in the US have operated for the last couple of decades. They always found something to gin up conservative outrage over whether it had a factual basis or logic to it or not. A lot of energy and opportunity cost and over-generous “compromise” was spent by what passes for the “Left” and the “Centre” in the US in attempts to avoid becoming fodder for these kinds of attacks, but it’s essentially ALL wasted because the smearers simply make shit up or make crazy arguments if they think that will advance their goals.

  11. #11 rhwombat
    December 31, 2013

    Adelady. Newman is a tool, a useful idiot, a convenient way to inject the vicious ideas of the Minchinite Hard Right into the bear pit without having to defend the indefensible. They use Downer (that other reprehensible piece of inbred Old Adelaide Facist shit) for the same purpose. We need more tumbrels.

  12. #12 Jeff Harvey
    December 31, 2013

    Betty’s infantile comment was picked up on Media Lens in the UK:

    “You’d cringe with embarrassment if it came out of the mouth of an 8-year-old” captures the intellectual level of most of Betty’s musings, in particular his quip about the vessel trapped in ice in the Antarctic. There’s nothing whatsoever ironic about this event; its just that dopes like bark-brain try and wring every bit of irony out of any orifice that they can.

  13. #13 David Duff
    This Septic Isle
    December 31, 2013

    Sorry to interrupt your morning service here at the Chapel for True Believers but I just wanted to express my deep gratitude for providing me with a constant source of mirth during the year. In particular, I just love the way you saved the best for last. The sight of a ship full of ‘Warmers’ and their acolytes from the media frozen solid in the Antarctic and having to be airlifted to safety has me rolling on the floor, banging my heels against the carpet and howling with laughter. Who needs the return of Monty Python when year after year after year you and yours provide non-stop comedy of the highest order.

    Anyway, enough mirth, back to your daily service which I enjoy so much, so altogether now, and no giggling, “I BELIEEEVE! I BELIEEEVE!”

  14. #14 el gordo
    December 31, 2013

    I agree with David, its a hoot.

  15. #15 Wow
    December 31, 2013

    Dai, why you talk such smack to betty?

  16. #16 Betula
    December 31, 2013
  17. #17 David Duff
    This Septic Isle
    December 31, 2013

    Please, Betula, mind your language and remember this a Chapel of True Belief! Yes, I realise that the congregation which used to overflow outside has now slowly but inexorably dwindled to a mere handful of True Believers and that even the High Priest in Residence who actually provides these premises has done a runner and has not been seen or heard of for years. (Just between the two of us, Betula, do you think he’s fallen from grace and is too shy to own up?!)

  18. #18 Lionel A
    December 31, 2013

    David Duff, late as ever with picking up on a story, you can believe what you like but we UNDERSTAND why you are wrong, and so wrong-headed you make GWB seem bright.

  19. #19 el gordo
    December 31, 2013

    Tim is around and I take this opportunity to wish him all the best and respectively request he unbans me… for the sake of free speech.

  20. #20 Wow
    December 31, 2013

    You so dumb betty.

    Ice? At the poles?

    So what?

  21. #21 Wow
    December 31, 2013

    Dai, do you have anything to say here, or have you merely got claims of how dumb you are to prattle on about?

  22. #22 Lionel A
    December 31, 2013

    Adelady,

    one would think that Abbott’s top business adviser would know about this,

    China’s pollution problems threaten Oz coal exports

    more here:

    China’s coal crackdown could leave Australian mines stranded Down Under

    which makes that Great Barrier Reef destroying port development even more insane.

    When will these tools learn that you cannot eat money and will soon come a time when a wheelbarrow load of high value notes will not even pay for a loaf of bread. Inflation, we ain’t seen nothing yet. I well remember those German ‘Adolf’ stamps I collected as a kid, the ones with ever larger numbers overprinted in black ink on nominal the same face value stamp.

    I’ll bet even old ‘Duffer the puffer’ is unaware of why that happened let alone the likes of Birch Bark and 2 Stupid, who have both doubled down on their idiocy in spite of being shown why they are wrong.

  23. #23 BBD
    December 31, 2013

    # 8 2Stupid

    This is not an answer to the question I asked you at # 5. Once again, when cornered by your own foolishness you turn evasive. I am fed up with your rank intellectual dishonesty so on this occasion will simplify the dance:

    Answer me or fuck off.

  24. #24 Jeff Harvey
    December 31, 2013

    After Britain has just had one of its warmest (and wettest) ever Decembers, I thought we’d seen the last of old Duffer. But no, like the ’8 year old child’ alluded to in the Media Lens post, he has to bring up the irrelevant story about the ship trapped in Antarctic ice.

    What a clown. But all deniers are.

  25. #25 Jeff Harvey
    December 31, 2013

    Of course, recall that Duffer once claimed that Obama was a Marxist….. this is the sub-benthic level of intellectual acumen we are dealing with here….

  26. #26 Lionel A
    December 31, 2013

    Betula, displaying signs of being worked over by the ‘bark beetle’:

    “Ah! So Betty joins the Ugly Bunch”

    Do you really think I would join up with the likes of Barney, who would like to watch people be beaten simply because he believes they may not share his vision of the future?

    Incomprehensible!

    Only incomprehensible to one who fails at following links or comprehending the message found there. Here is a reminder.

    Do you not understand how stupid your remark WRT BBD is? It is flippant idiocy.

  27. #27 David Duff
    This Septic Isle
    December 31, 2013

    Er, Lionel, given the, um, slight embarrassment, shall we say, of all those ‘Warmers’ and their Guardian hacks trapped in the ice, perhaps this isn’t the best time to be using phrases like “who have both doubled down on their idiocy in spite of being shown why they are wrong.” Please, please, just stick to the chorus – “WE BELIEEEVE, WE BELIEEEVE”

  28. #28 David Duff
    This Septic Isle
    December 31, 2013

    Oh, and Jeff, my apologies, I have been meaning to drop a line here to say thank you to all of you for providing a bit of warming this December. Of course, it’s not *global* warming, as any ‘damn Yankee’ will tell you, to say nothing of those suckers on the ship, but still, every little helps and I do so desperately want global warming to happen. Well, who wouldn’t, it’s much better than global cooling which I suspect (no more) might be about to happen.

  29. #29 Lionel A
    December 31, 2013

    El thicko continues:

    Er, Lionel, given the, um, slight embarrassment, shall we say, of all those ‘Warmers’ and their Guardian hacks trapped in the ice,…

    So you still do not understand why this incident came about, never let learning get in the way of a ‘flippant quip’ is your motto, No?

    Your posts will continue to be facile until you bother to delve deeper into the physics of climate change and the effects on the meteorology of the area of focus.

  30. #30 Betula
    December 31, 2013

    “After Britain has just had one of its warmest (and wettest) ever Decembers”

    Hardley, how many times do we have to teach you the difference between weather and climate and that “citing monthly temperature records are meaningless when looking at longer trends”

    It would be the equivalent of me stating “Madison, Wisconsin was breaking maximum temperature records by over 5 C in mid-January.”

    Of course, in terms of climate change, any senior scientist worth his weight in snow would consider such a statement to be irrelevant…

    http://www.ecoglobe.org/nz/biodiv/biod2211.htm

    By the way, speaking of timescales, it’s been 12 years since that Madison Wisconsin comment and it appears that the Koch brothers have now bought the state…

    http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20131230/GPG0101/312300134/

    .

  31. #31 David Duff
    This Septic Isle
    December 31, 2013

    No, no, no, Lionel, I *do* understand, really I do, it’s just those twerps on the boat who don’t! Please, do try and explain it to *them* and don’t waste your time with me because I already know that in Antarctica it gets jolly cold, I mean, ‘bits-dropping-off cold’ and that’s why there’s lots and lots of ice so no-one with more than three brain cells – so that includes us, eh, Lionel? – would dream of going anywhere near the wretched place in a boat, of all things!

  32. #32 Bernard J.
    December 31, 2013

    Happy arbitrary orbital milestone day.

    I wonder if the scientifically illiterate physics/ecology deniers will finally learn some of the basics in 2014…?

  33. #33 Wow
    December 31, 2013

    “No, no, no, Lionel, I *do* understand, really I do”

    So you’re deliberately talking shit, then, dai?

  34. #34 Wow
    December 31, 2013

    “how many times do we have to teach you the difference between weather and climate”

    You’ve never tried to do that once, betty.

    Indeed the most immobile refusal to know what the difference between the two is are you deniers. Hell, you’ve refused every attempt to either describe or define either climate, weather or the difference.

    Like with your “Look! It’s cooling!” whines.

    Weather, not climate, dear.

  35. #35 Wow
    December 31, 2013

    “Of course, it’s not *global* warming, as any ‘damn Yankee’ will tell you,”

    Yet your back yard, if snowing, is proof that GLOBAL warming is not happening???

  36. #36 Wow
    December 31, 2013

    “Er, Lionel, given the, um, slight embarrassment, shall we say, of all those ‘Warmers’ and their Guardian hacks trapped in the ice”

    What slight embarrassment?

  37. #37 Bernard J.
    December 31, 2013

    David Duff.

    I know that you’re forever mired by your inability to understand even basic physics, but the Antarctic expedition issue goes something like this:

    1) an icerberg the size of Luxembourg breaks off and crunches around the terminus of a glacier making sea ice soup

    2) winds pile this soup around a ship, locking it in.

    3) physics denialists think that the presence of such ice invalidates the fact of human carbon emissions, the greenhouse effect, global warming, and the triviality of continued ice presence at the South Pole of the planet.

    Apparently as soon as a freezer is turned off all the ice turns to water.

    Those rugger boys flushed your head three times and only brought it back up twice, eh what Duff?

  38. #38 Betula
    December 31, 2013

    “Only incomprehensible to one who fails at following links or comprehending the message found there.”

    Sorry Lionel, I don’t know what came over me, but when I read this….“Ah! So Betty joins the Ugly Bunch”….followed by chek’s posting of this….”are vermin incapable of comprehension”….I couldn’t help but be reminded how compassionate and caring you Deltoidians are.

    I couldn’t help but recall the compassion of Barney back in June when he stated….”If the public really thought about the matter, deniers would be beaten in the streets, and I for one would not lift a fucking finger to stop it”.

    Such a lovely bunch.

  39. #39 Wow
    December 31, 2013

    “I couldn’t help but be reminded how compassionate and caring you Deltoidians are.”

    Ah, rather ironic that you complain and whine about impolite, betty.

    Love to dish it out, hate to reap what you sow, eh?

  40. #40 BBD
    December 31, 2013

    Betty #28

    November was the warmest in the instrumental record…

    The climate system is warming because of increased radiative forcing by GHGs, mainly CO2. It will get much, much warmer by the end of the century if emissions continue unabated. This is well understood both from fundamental physics and from known paleoclimate behaviour. Denying this is infantile. QED.

  41. #41 Betula
    December 31, 2013

    “but the Antarctic expedition issue goes something like this:”

    A lot of time, money and resources expended, along with CO2 emitted, to discover ice in the Antarctic.

  42. #42 Wow
    December 31, 2013

    “A lot of time, money and resources expended, along with CO2 emitted, to discover ice in the Antarctic.”

    Ah, so that’s as far as what you know goes, is it, betty?

    Tell me, where did you read that the point of the expedition was to discover ice in the Antarctic?

  43. #43 Betula
    December 31, 2013

    “Tell me, where did you read that the point of the expedition was to discover ice in the Antarctic”

    The ice discovered them.

  44. #44 BBD
    December 31, 2013

    This November was the 345th consecutive month when global average temperature exceeded the C20th average.

    Weather or climate, Betty? Weather or climate?

  45. #45 Bernard J.
    December 31, 2013

    Wow, you need to give Betula a few furlongs headstart.

    He’s not the sharpest spade in the shed, and this is why he is either completely unaware:

    1) of the reason the expedition was there in the first place, or

    2) why his statement is simply nothing more than that the classic straw man logical fallacy.

    Or both. The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive, and he was obviously ring-barked as a sapling.

  46. #46 Wow
    December 31, 2013

    “The ice discovered them.”

    What part of “where did you read that the point of the expedition was to discover ice in the Antarctic” was unclear, betty?

    Your response has not answered my query.

  47. #47 BBD
    December 31, 2013

    Your response has not answered my query.

    Good luck with that, Wow. I’m still waiting for this ludicrous little man to acknowledge that his IPCC conspiracy theory is a conspiracy theory.

    Mind you, 2Stupid is just as bad. In fact refusal to answer questions seems to be endemic in denier-land. Must be something to do with the fact that what they peddle is a load of old bollocks.

  48. #48 Jeff Harvey
    December 31, 2013

    Betty chastises me over the record mild UK December (actually all of Europe has been near record warm, but why quibble) without understanding that warm weather records are exceeding cold weather records by a ratio in excess of 5:1 over the past decade. Now there’s climate for you. Moreover, I am not talking about one location (e.g. Madison WI) but a large continent.

    At the same time, birch brain makes a big fuss over a ship trapped in Antarctic ice which is not only a very local event, but has nothing whatsoever to do with AGW.

    I smell more than a whiff of hypocrisy….

  49. #49 Lionel A
    December 31, 2013

    I smell more than a whiff of hypocrisy….

    More like the stench of insanity with Bark Brain.

  50. #50 ianam
    December 31, 2013

    Of course, it’s not *global* warming

    Duff remains so stupid as to not even understand what “global warming” means … he thinks it implies that every spot on the globe is warm. I’ve suggested before “planetary warming”, but I think he’s too stupid to understand even that.

  51. #51 Lionel A
    December 31, 2013

    Sou tells us that Willard Anthony has taken his nutery to a new level with this one Vessel trapped off Antarctica – it’s a conspiracy, sez anti-science campaigner Anthony Watts not that the gang of idiots that includes Duff and Birch Bark will realise how silly they have been even now.

  52. #52 Stu
    January 1, 2014

    @Stu2:

    Since you’re running from #6 like a jackrabbit with a cherrybomb suppository, you have conceded you are lazy, incompetent and a troll.

    Just FYI.

    @All:

    WHAT THE FARK is with the new troll fixation on “conspiracy theory or not”? It is beyond pathetic. Betula has been trying to play short-bus gotcha with this for what, four pages now? What a sad little muppet.

    FACT:

    There is money in green energy. Some policy makers have glaring COIs that are apparent to anyone. Millions of dollars percolate through this nefarious web.

    FACT:

    There is money in denialism. Energy companies and their owners go to great lengths to hide their involvement in this wingnut welfare scheme and put money in effort into changing the subject whenever they are exposed. Billions of dollars percolate through this nefarious scheme.

    FACT:

    AGW is real and a scientific certainty.

    Oh, and I would like to introduce Stu’s Law: “If you think that a scientific expedition getting caught in the ice is a valid argument in the discussion whether AGW is happening, you are a fetid, trolling moron and will be laughed out of the room.”

  53. #53 Stu
    January 1, 2014

    (Random analogy time)

    Crime statistics in the US have been steadily declining since tracking started in the 70s. This is not open for debate.

    Deniers, essentially, are now standing over a random mugging and gleefully saying “look! look! statistics! ha! look!”.

    Bonus points to be awarded if the person mugged is one of the scientists compiling crime data. The Watts troll contingent would essentially stand over the victim cackling in ecstasy braying about how this one incident proves all that stupid sciency data totally wrong.

    What do you mean, what? That’s EXACTLY what is happening over at WUWT with a scientific research vessel getting stranded in Antarctica. Some proudly wish for them to die. For being right.

    Now scroll back through this thread and watch Betula do Extreme Pretzel Reasoning to make this equivalent to some of us wishing denialist liars getting kicked in the nuts. Or being beat up. It was something like that, wasn’t it Betula? I don’t seem to recall the WISHING YOU WOULD DIE OF HYPOTHERMIA FOR BEING RIGHT.

    Scum. Sub-standard, insensate, sociopathic pond scum. That’s what you are. DIAFF.

  54. #54 Lotharsson
    January 1, 2014

    Hardley, how many times do we have to teach you the difference between weather and climate and that “citing monthly temperature records are meaningless when looking at longer trends”

    Ah, in addition the other comments addressing this above, note that Betula has reliably failed to appreciate the point and attempted a clumsy sleight of hand in his own inimitable fashion.

    Duffer is, as Duffer is wont to do, citing some regional conditions which he appears to think invalidates the scientific understanding that the climate system is warming. (Never mind that he’s too stubborn to acknowledge that a warming world will still have regions that are below freezing for long periods of time, and sea ice will form on seas in those regions…)

    It is entirely appropriate to skewer Duffer’s idiocy by pointing out not only some other regional conditions that, if the same logic were applied, would lead to the opposite conclusion.

    Now pay attention, as this concept is a bit tricky for most people until they reach early high school.

    Skewering someone else’s illogic does not mean that the one doing the skewering subscribes to that illogic, any more than my earlier mockery of your conspiracy theory means that I subscribe to it as you implied I did.

    And finally it is even more appropriate to skewer Duff’s logic based on Duff’s own regional conditions. This points out that he’s ignoring the lessons his own region would teach him if his logic were valid, so he has apparently worked hard to cherry pick a region that can “support” his preferred conclusions via his chain of illogic.

  55. #55 Betula
    January 1, 2014

    Stu…
    “Now scroll back through this thread and watch Betula do Extreme Pretzel Reasoning to make this equivalent to some of us wishing denialist liars getting kicked in the nuts. Or being beat up. It was something like that, wasn’t it Betula? I don’t seem to recall the WISHING YOU WOULD DIE OF HYPOTHERMIA FOR BEING RIGHT.”

    Try to follow along Stu…I know it’s tough for you:

    1. I state “oh the irony”

    2. Lionel links this to WUWT with this comment…”Ah! So Betty joins the Ugly Bunch”

    Are you still with me?

    3. Chek also thinks “oh the irony” is similar to WUWT with this statement…”Williwatts displayed similar derision”, and then takes it a step further by saying they “are vermin incapable of comprehension”

    Is this going too fast for you?

    4. I figured if “oh the irony” is similar to “vermin incapable of comprehension”, surely this statement…”If the public really thought about the matter, deniers would be beaten in the streets, and I for one would not lift a fucking finger to stop it”…must be incomprehensible.

    Almost done Stu, I know this is tough for you, but this is your big part.

    5. You, being the genius that you are, take it new a whole new level. The comparison of “oh the irony” to WUWT vermin is reasonable, whereas the comparison of wanting someone beaten to vermin is unreasonable. In fact, if you can follow the order of events above, what you are saying is that the statement “oh the irony” ends up being equivalent to wishing people die of hypothermia.

    Being the scholar that you are, here’s a test question for you:

    Choose the two that are most similar:

    A. ”If the public really thought about the matter, deniers would be beaten in the streets, and I for one would not lift a fucking finger to stop it”.

    B. “WISHING YOU WOULD DIE OF HYPOTHERMIA”

    C. Oh the irony.

    Take your time, you can retake the test as many times as you like until you get it right.

  56. #56 ianam
    January 1, 2014

    It is entirely appropriate to skewer Duffer’s idiocy by pointing out not only some other regional conditions that, if the same logic were applied, would lead to the opposite conclusion.

    I don’t think so. By Duff’s moronic misunderstanding of “global warming”, it implies that every point on the globe is warm. Thus, looking out his window and seeing that it’s cold serves as a counterexample. But counterexamples to “the globe is not warm everywhere” are not possible. Jeff’s “Britain has just had one of its warmest (and wettest) ever Decembers” is irrelevant and the virus’s observation that it’s just another example of weather is correct. Jeff gets some things right, but he gets a lot wrong, and intellectually honest people should recognize that.

  57. #57 ianam
    January 1, 2014

    And finally it is even more appropriate to skewer Duff’s logic based on Duff’s own regional conditions. This points out that he’s ignoring the lessons his own region would teach him if his logic were valid, so he has apparently worked hard to cherry pick a region that can “support” his preferred conclusions via his chain of illogic.

    Let me explain again why this is incorrect.

    Duff’s position is that there’s no global warming, there are just natural cycles and variation. So of course he does not deny that it is warm in places, and sometimes warm in his own region. Examples of warmth in his own region are thus no challenge to his chain of reasoning at all and there’s nothing to be learned from them.

    OTOH, when Duff looks out his window and sees snow, he validly (but unsoundly) reasons that there is no global warming. It’s valid because he’s a cretin who thinks that “global warming” implies that it’s warm everywhere, and if it isn’t warm where he is then it isn’t warm everywhere and so there is no global warming. This is entirely valid (a technical term of logic) reasoning, but unsound (another technical term of logic), because his premise (that global warming implies that it is warm everywhere) is false. From a false premise, any proposition, true or false, can be derived through valid logic (this is a theorem of logic — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_explosion#The_proof-theoretic_argument).

  58. #58 ianam
    January 1, 2014

    Oops, I gave the proof that any proposition can be proven from a contradiction. Actually, in predicate logic, material implication is defined such that it is true whenever the antecedent is false. See, e.g., http://www.nku.edu/~longa/classes/mat385_resources/docs/russellpope.html

  59. #59 ianam
    January 1, 2014

    Duffer is, as Duffer is wont to do, citing some regional conditions which he appears to think invalidates the scientific understanding that the climate system is warming.

    No, really, he’s too stupid to understand that that’s what “global warming” is about … he thinks it means that it’s warm everywhere (and getting warmer). The notion of a “climate system” that is warming is far beyond the grasp of his peabrain.

  60. #60 ianam
    January 1, 2014

    Duffer is, as Duffer is wont to do, citing some regional conditions which he appears to think invalidates the scientific understanding that the climate system is warming.

    This is a bit like saying that an ape flinging shit at scientists appears to think that it invalidates their understanding of animal experiment protocols. But of course the ape doesn’t think that because the notion of animal experiment protocols isn’t part of its cognitive framework and so it can’t think anything of it. Likewise, the notion of a climate system as something that can warm isn’t part of Duff’s cognitive framework and so he can’t think anything of it. Rather, his thoughts are limited to “Me cold! So not everyone warm!”.

  61. #61 Wow
    January 1, 2014

    “1. I state “oh the irony””

    What irony?

    “2. Lionel links this to WUWT with this comment…”Ah! So Betty joins the Ugly Bunch””

    Yes, two events can happen in a universe, betty. why does this confuse you so?

    “4. I figured if “oh the irony” is similar to “vermin incapable of comprehension””

    Ah, well, betty, this is where your problem arises: your figuring is wrong. Hope this helps.

    “The comparison of “oh the irony” to WUWT vermin is reasonable, whereas the comparison of wanting someone beaten to vermin is unreasonable. ”

    Where were you when Glen Beck claimed that climate scientists should commit suicide? False tone trolling, dear. Damn obvious.

    “Being the scholar that you are, here’s a test question for you:

    Choose the two that are most similar:”

    Ah, you don’t seem to understand what “question” means, dear.

    What you put was not a question, it was a request.

    Please choose one of the following:

    a) You’re a moron who doesn’t know what question is

    b) You’re a fatuous shithead who doesn’t CARE what they demand is rational

    c) you’re paid to troll this site.

    Take your time, you can retake the test as many times as you like until you get it right.

  62. #62 Jeff Harvey
    January 1, 2014

    Ianam, I brought the weather up as a direct intention of using Betula’s inane logic against him. Note that I pointed out the word hypocrisy. Batty kept on about a totally irrelevant example (the ship trapped in the Antarctic) and I followed suit. Moreover, as I later pointed out, warm weather records are breaking cold weather records by a hefty margin. The incredibly warm winter so far over most of Europe is part of the pattern, just as the heat waves that hit the US in 2012 and Russia in 2010 were. So you are incorrect.

    As for getting a lot of things wrong, please enlighten me sir. Methinks you are a little too self-confident for your own good. I suggest that you tone it down a little. You write in here as if you alone are gifted with wisdom that escape most of us ‘mortals’. I don’t want to quibble but some of the stuff you write is also wrong. Your take on Obama, for example, is miles from anywhere being hear reality.

  63. #63 BBD
    January 1, 2014

    Now, now peeps. Goodwill to all and similar seasonal cobblers.

    And a Happy New Year…

    ;-)

  64. #64 Jeff Harvey
    January 1, 2014

    One final point: I never said that the world warms uniformly. Where Ianam gleaned this from me is anyone’s guess. Certainly polar regions have warned much faster than regions in lower latitudes, as predicted by global circulation models going back to the times of Revelle and Keeling. I’ve got more than enough experience as a practicing scientist to know what is going on. But certainly some events are exceptional. Right now, in the Netherlands, many wild plants are in flower – especially species in the Asteraceae – and Rumex species are actually growing and seeding. This is virtually unprecedented at this time of the year. There’s plenty of evidence for a lot of primary production taking place in a season when everything should be pretty well dormant. Many of the lower elevations of the continent have been frost free for a month. This is exceptional at whatever temporal or spatial scale one views it.

    Essentially, if we combine data sets over decades, then we see in much of Europe a clear pattern of more frost free days, warmer onsets to spring and longer growing seasons in central and western Europe. What’s happening in the past two months is part of a longer term trend. I have lived in Europe for 30 years and this is the mildest start I have yet experienced here – and this is not restricted to Benelux or the UK. It covers a vast swath of the continent as far as Russia. If it continues, it will certainly exacerbate a range of ecological problems that can occur at short scales, such as the phenology of species interactions (e.g. the mistiming of food peaks for migratory songbirds) as well as enhance the populations of species moving up from the south, such as oak processionary caterpillars which are becoming a major health hazard in areas from which they were either once rare or not present. Several other invasive insects are heading towards northern Europe, such as the pine processionary caterpillar, which will pose a similar health hazard as its congener. Cold winters kill the egg masses of these insects, but as I said, the trend towards warmer winters is enhancing their survival to the north. The diamondback moth, perhaps the biggest pest of cabbage crops worldwide, now overwinters in Holland, something only began about 10 years ago. Winter is a major biological control agent, and warm winters like the current one are increasing the likelihood of pest outbreaks.

  65. #65 Jeff Harvey
    January 1, 2014

    Happy new year to you too, BBD. I am sorry for the little outburst above, but Ianam oversteps the mark from time to time. His criticism of me was unfounded, and gives the impression that I don’t understand the difference between climate and weather. I sure as hell do…. but I use weather examples to counter the hypocritical crap spun by the likes of Duff and Betula… on the one hand, Betula derides any link between GW and regional short term effects, then on the other he brings up the pathetically incorrect example of the ship trapped in the Antarctic as an example of irony, meaning in his puny lexicon that in warming world there should be less ice, not more. Pretty appalling really, given the fact that (1) its bloody cold in the Antarctic anyway, well below freezing most of the time even under warming, (2) as Bernard said: ice breaks off the main continental block, and creates an ice ‘soup’that closes even and consolidates because, as I said, it is cold, and (3) that under warming, precipitation may increase, leading to a transient or local increase in the amount of ice, given that its cold there anyway.

    I don’t mind legitimate criticism, but to try and suggest I don’t know the difference between weather and climate is beyond the pale.

    Anyway, happy new year to you and other Deltoiders including Ianam. I like most of his posts, but for some reason he tends to occasionally snipe at those with whom he should see as allies.

  66. #66 Betula
    January 1, 2014

    I figured if “oh the irony” is similar to “vermin incapable of comprehension….

    Wow: “your figuring is wrong”

    So there is no comparison. Whew, I’m glad we set the record straight on that one.

  67. #67 Betula
    January 1, 2014

    Uh oh….trouble in Deltoidia. Infighting amongst the locals and the deputy needs to step in to keep order…

  68. #68 Betula
    January 1, 2014

    “You write in here as if you alone are gifted with wisdom that escape most of us ‘mortals”

    Don’t feel threatened Hardley, as long as you believe nobody is a gifted as you are, you will have your own little oak processionary cocoon to protect you.

  69. #69 BBD
    January 1, 2014

    Betty

    This November was the 345th consecutive month when global average temperature exceeded the C20th average.

    Weather or climate?

    You didn’t respond the first time so I am asking you again. Or are you going to give us another masterclass in evasiveness and intellectual dishonesty as you did with your hilarious refusal to admit that your conspiracy theory was in fact a conspiracy theory?

    I hope you realise just how badly damaging that little episode was for you, Betty. I think you do, actually, which is gratifying.

  70. #70 Wow
    January 1, 2014

    “So there is no comparison.”

    No, you made one, but it’s wrong.

    Is “being wrong” something you cannot comprehend, betty?

  71. #71 BBD
    January 1, 2014

    Let’s look at Novembers past and present.

    Woo! Now that’s climate.

    Undeniably!

  72. #72 BBD
    January 1, 2014

    I wonder if our star turn at intellectual dishonesty is going to try a variant of the “it’s not a conspiracy” lie and stand in front of that graph insisting that what it shows is weather.

    Or perhaps Betty will go into full-evasion mode and just pretend that the awful smell isn’t really there and he isn’t kneeling before us, grotesque and bare (as Leonard Cohen so memorably puts it).

    We will just have to wait and see!

  73. #73 Betula
    January 1, 2014
  74. #74 Lionel A
    January 1, 2014

    Don’t feel threatened Hardley, as long as you believe nobody is a gifted as you are, you will have your own little oak processionary cocoon to protect you.

    Oh! Dear!

    The petulance of the long running ignoramus shows again.

    And it is only the first day of a new year. Can Betty get any worse. We shall will see.

    And a good new year to you BBD, did the red coated fellow with a bushy white beard throw you a copy of Falconer?

    I fear wishing a happy new year would be to miss all the extra human misery that will come about as a result of the world being unable to shake off the dead hand of an economic system that loads the dice in favour of the few at the expense of the wider ecology and those who depend upon it.

    Here is just one data point to support that last statement:

    China Says 8 Million Acres Of Farmland Now Too Polluted For Food

    with tar sands and fracking (and its deadly twin CBME – coal bed methane extraction [1] – look this one up, it is even more frightening than fracking) threatening to become rampant we are all in the firing line for altered lives – never mind weather on steroids due to climatic shifts and food web collapses.

    [1] Will those Brit’s who successfully ‘bring home the bacon’ using CBME be in line for future CBM awards?

  75. #75 Stu
    January 1, 2014

    Oh Betty. Wow already took care of your latest flailing gotcha attempt, but I’d just like to add that you really, really, really suck at this. I’m sorry, you’re simply too damned stupid.

  76. #76 BBD
    January 1, 2014

    Happy New Year to you too, Lionel. I got King (3rd ed but this is fine – it is specifically what I asked for. Just something to throw in a bag when off to Cornwall etc.

    Here’s a little choon just for Betty while we wait for him to decide what to do next…

    ;-)

  77. #77 BBD
    January 1, 2014

    Hmmm. So is it weather or climate Betty?

    Weather or climate?

    Which do you think it is?

    :-)

  78. #78 BBD
    January 1, 2014

    I’ve just realised that it’s possible that Betty doesn’t actually understand what that graph is showing but is ashamed to ask. And I really should have said at the outset – it is of course all November global average temperatures from 1880 to 2013. Just Novembers.

  79. #79 Wow
    January 1, 2014

    “PARTY ON!”

    Is this similar to the nonexistent “irony” you claimed earlier?

  80. #80 Lionel A
    January 1, 2014

    BBD

    Lionel. I got King…

    I have been meaning for some time, like the last 17 years, to create an O’Brian space on my web but the sheer quantity of material available at some sites kinda put me off. What I now intend to do is to create a space for short reviews and content descriptions of those text books that I have collected over the years there are more than a few. I made a start before the silly season by photographing the covers (using a macro lens it being rectilinear) as an aid to identification. I am not sure about adding Amazon (.com or .co.uk) links as I am wary of aiding and abetting further death in the high street.

  81. #81 BBD
    January 1, 2014

    Lionel A

    That sounds like a good idea – then such as I will not have to hassle you about book recommendations in comments on climate blogs.

    ;-)

    Betty’s gone very quiet all of a sudden, hasn’t he?

    :-)

  82. #82 Lionel A
    January 1, 2014

    Now let me pre-empt ‘its darned’ cold here nonsense from Bet-of-Bark-Hall (and Duff too when the JS twists like this over the UK er long) Bundle Up for New Year as Door to Arctic Is Wide Open.

    I do wish Americains would start learning to think in degrees Celsius for use of Fahrenheit confuses many with an IQ that allows their brains to be messed with by the likes of Willard Anthony or TVMOB.

  83. #83 Betula
    January 1, 2014

    Wow…”you’re paid to troll this site.”

    You propose an Interesting conspiracy theory.

    Now, it would seem that if anyone were being paid to spend time on this site, they would spend a lot of time here. Hmm, who is spending almost every waking moment on this site?

    And it seems that if someone were being paid to comment on this site, they would have a purpose, sort of like a deputy of deltoid, to make sure the message is guided in a certain direction…but who?

    Yes Wow, as a conspiracy theorist, you may be onto something here…

  84. #84 Betula
    January 1, 2014

    Barney,

    For someone who has failed to answer my questions posed to you long ago, I find it interesting that you demand I answer yours..
    Apart from the fact that it’s obvious your questions are used to deflect, I find it interesting that you can’t seem to poke holes in what you believe to be a conspiracy theory, other than to call it a conspiracy theory. I would think it would be easy for a deputy of your stature…

    Since it’s a new year, let me start fresh by asking the questions again:

    How do we justify taxing carbon? And how do we make it so the rich nations pay the carbon tax and the poor nations receive it?

    We need some sort of official organization that is the sole authority, a world authority if you will, that we can point to and say…..”Look! The debate is over! This group of experts, made up of some scientists and other people lobbying for representing their countries, but all with the same ideological mindset, have proven beyond any doubt, that hypothetical future catastrophic scenarios will most likely definitely occur if the rich don’t pay what are they are morally obligated to pay!”

    But where can we find such an organization?

  85. #85 Betula
    January 1, 2014

    And while we are starting fresh, let me ask you a few more questions:

    1. Do you see climate change as a global justice issue?

    2. Do you believe the Millennium Development goals can provide a pathway to social justice?

  86. #86 Betula
    January 1, 2014

    In regards to your weather/climate question… you’re too obvious. Why would you pose a question to me for pointing out a distinction to Hardley?

    We all know Hardley has been conflating weather and climate for years:

    1. Here from 13 years ago…“Madison, Wisconsin was breaking maximum temperature records by over 5 C in mid-January”
    http://www.ecoglobe.org/nz/biodiv/biod2211.htm

    2. A few years ago when he claimed to witness climate change first hand while on a 23 day trip (time scale) that involved frostbite.
    http://www.nioo.knaw.nl/en/node/2137

    3. And just recently at #22 on this page….”After Britain has just had one of its warmest (and wettest) ever Decembers”

    Yet, as the self appointed deputy of Deltoid, you feel the need to question me for questioning the nutty professor. Like I said…you’re too obvious.

    Put the bullet back in your pocket Barney.

  87. #87 chek
    January 1, 2014

    but all with the same ideological mindset, have proven beyond any doubt, that hypothetical future catastrophic scenarios will most likely definitely occur if the rich don’t pay what are they are morally obligated to pay!”

    … and that Betty, encapsulates why you’re an illiterate, illogical floon driven by whatever it is that fools you into thinking yourself informed.
    Williwatts should be proud of his work in dumbing down, although in your case, you likely – or should that be definitely – had a head start..

  88. #88 BBD
    January 1, 2014

    Apart from the fact that it’s obvious your questions are used to deflect

    Oh Betty. The smell of cooking irony meters is choking.

    How do we justify taxing carbon?

    Because it is a logical policy response to AGW.

    And how do we make it so the rich nations pay the carbon tax and the poor nations receive it?

    So developing economies with low per-capita wealth and low per-capita emissions should pay the developed economies? Be serious, Betty.

    Now, back to that much-avoided question: does the graph show weather or climate?

  89. #89 BBD
    January 1, 2014

    I find it interesting that you can’t seem to poke holes in what you believe to be a conspiracy theory, other than to call it a conspiracy theory.

    You have provided exactly zero evidence that the IPCC is being used as a tool to promote global wealth redistribution. You simply assert it, and that is a conspiracy theory:

    ..because that is what this is really all about, the redistribution of the worlds wealth….compensation that is due, not for faux futuristic catastrophic scenarios, but for plundering the poor.

    Trying to shift the onus of proof onto me when you have provided nothing in support of your conspiracy theory yourself is just silly.

  90. #90 chek
    January 1, 2014

    On second thoughts, attempting to explain their insanity to the insane is in itself insane.
    Scrub the last comment, it’s pointless.

  91. #91 Wow
    January 1, 2014

    “How do we justify taxing carbon?”

    By giving the justification for taxing it, dear. Did you really miss it, despite all the whining about how it’s being taxed from you?

    “We all know Hardley has been conflating weather and climate for years:”

    We know that you’ve been getting it confused for hears. Dai. Stu pid. Et al.

    Nobody knows what you claim for the same reason nobody knows that Santa prefers jockey shorts over Y-fronts.

    “Yet, as the self appointed deputy of Deltoid, you feel the need to question me for questioning the nutty professor.”

    No, questioning your reason for querying it.

    Hell, asking what the hell your question is based on.

  92. #92 chek
    January 1, 2014

    #88 should read: scrub my last comment.

  93. #93 Wow
    January 1, 2014

    “And while we are starting fresh, let me ask you a few more questions:”

    And feel free to ask them.

    However, what point is there answering them? You’ve consistently shown that you do not think that answering them is of any utility at all.

  94. #94 Wow
    January 1, 2014

    “You propose an Interesting conspiracy theory.”

    No, I proposed a question for you.

    Apparently you are insisting that you really don’t understand what question means.

    Oh dear.

  95. #95 Wow
    January 1, 2014

    Betty whines:

    “For someone who has failed to answer my questions posed to you long ago”

    Ah, so you will answer the questions you’ve left unanswered, yes, betty?

    Or is complaining only something you’re allowed to do?

  96. #96 BBD
    January 1, 2014

    Sorry – I should have reposted the link to the November temperature round-up graph.

    And it seems that if someone were being paid to comment on this site, they would have a purpose, sort of like a deputy of deltoid, to make sure the message is guided in a certain direction…but who?

    You think I guide Lotharsson, Jeff, Lionel, Stu, ianam, RHW, chek etc in delivering a “message”? Seriously? I bet they’d have something to say about that. This whole BBD-is-deputy framing is absurd. Since it isn’t doing you any good, I suggest quietly dropping it for 2014…

  97. #97 BBD
    January 1, 2014

    In regards to your weather/climate question… you’re too obvious.

    Eh? I’m simply curious, especially now you have started being highly evasive on the point:

    November-only global monthly average temperature 1880 – 2013

    Weather or climate?

    * * *

    1. Do you see climate change as a global justice issue?

    2. Do you believe the Millennium Development goals can provide a pathway to social justice?

    1/ Yes, obviously it is. How could it not be? Bizarre question.

    2/ You tell me. Here they are again:

    1/. Eradicate extreme poverty and hunger

    2/. Achieve universal primary education

    3/. Promote gender equality and empower women

    4/. Reduce child mortality

    5/. Improve maternal health

    6/. Combat HIV/AIDS, malaria and other diseases

    7/. Ensure environmental sustainability

    8/. Global partnership for development

  98. #98 chek
    January 1, 2014

    The insane have no concept of enlightened self interest, BBD, let alone philanthropy.
    Maybe the history of the US Republican right has been an experiment in reaching a critical mass of ignorant misanthropy until their perceived and filtered self-interest extinguishes them .

  99. #99 BBD
    January 1, 2014

    chek

    Let’s hope they are extinguished before their bony grip on the throat of the world takes the rest of us down with them. I’m not especially confident on this point. Which brings us to the point: I sense that Betty has never understood why I described him as an enemy of the species or why I said that if people realised what was being done to them and futurity by the grasping self-interest of corporate behaviour and its political enablers and the horde of useful idiots chanting the scripts then their rage would know no bounds. And I won’t be trying to stop it.

  100. #100 BBD
    January 2, 2014

    Since it’s New Year, let’s put some music on. Eno and Byrne, from long ago.

    It’s the thought that counts.