May 2014 Open Thread

More thread.

Comments

  1. #1 Stu 2
    May 6, 2014

    A couple of links that are bound to get things rolling for May (albeit rather late)
    http://climateconference.heartland.org/

    http://climateconference.heartland.org/speakers/

  2. #2 Bernard J.
    May 6, 2014

    Ah, Stu-3.142…

    I see that you’ve finally realised that Heartland is a propaganda machine for fossil fuels corporations and right wings ideologues.

    Next time though you might want to explicitly emphasise this so that sensible people don’t mistake you for an idiot.

  3. #3 bill
    May 7, 2014

    Stu kicks off with a bunch of corporate stu-ges. Apt.

    And best ignored.

  4. #4 Marco
    May 7, 2014

    Oi, look at that Heartland line-up. We finally have the real name of Steve Goddard! It’s “Tony Heller”

    Which is interesting:
    http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/01/el-nino-global-warming-and-anomalous-winter-warmth/comment-page-4/
    (search for his name)
    I’m pretty sure that’s him. Trash talk and cherry picking.

  5. #5 bill
    May 7, 2014

    Seems so. And I note that Patrick Moore is listed as ‘Founder, Greenpeace’.

    Usual suspects. Meh.

  6. #6 Bernard J.
    May 7, 2014

    And I note that Patrick Moore is listed as ‘Founder, Greenpeace’.

    What, they have blatant lies and egregious inaccuracies on their web page, even after such have been refuted time and again?

    Quelle surprise

  7. #7 wmmbb
    Bulli NSW
    May 7, 2014

    Ian Pilmer’s new book, “Not the Greens” has been published just in time for Dick Warburton to read prior to his decision on the RET.

    I have only read the publishers summary, which is very funny. Pilmer argues that the greens are ignorant and extremist ideologues. Here is the punchline:

    This book argues that unless the greens live sustainably in caves in the forest and use no trappings of the modern world, then they should be regarded as hypocrites and treated with the disdain they deserve.

  8. #8 chek
    May 7, 2014

    I guess by similar logic one shouldn’t purport to be a geologist unless one lives under a rock.
    Oh wait – figuratively counts too, doesn’t it?

  9. #9 Lotharsson
    May 8, 2014

    It’s interesting that Plimer’s book is unable to distinguish “modern” from “sustainable”, or “sustainable” from “living in caves”.

    Someone who makes such a basic logic error probably isn’t going to do very well with the more complicated sciency stuff. But various and sundry useful idiots will be fooled by it.

  10. #10 Bernard J.
    May 8, 2014

    t’s interesting that Plimer’s book is unable to distinguish “modern” from “sustainable”, or “sustainable” from “living in caves”.

    Back in the day Plimer (that is, a quarter of a century ago) would have failed students who engaged in that sort of egregious confabulation of ideas. Even then he was regardeed by most of my contemporaries as an arrogant prat, but and least he had some scientific integrity.

    I’ve seen little sign of any integrity since he started his climatological denialism.

  11. #11 joni
    May 8, 2014

    I had Plimer as my 1st year Geology professor at Newcastle Uni. To think I respected him then. sigh.

  12. #12 Lionel A
    May 8, 2014

    Should have posted this here rather than in the April thread:

    Lest there is any doubt as to how the filthy rich undermine the welfare of others two strands emerging throw more spotlights on this issue:

    Barack Obama’s emissions plan comes under new line of attack

    and

    Show Me the Money: Meet the Multimillionaire Squeezing Missouri’s Schools..

    Do these selfish idiots, if they have offspring, not realise that no amount of ‘fortress’ mentality will be able to prepare those offspring for the upheaval that will result from the continuation of BAU aided by impoverished education?

    Voldemort, if he had been reality, was this evil and existed in much the same way – sucking the life force of others. Was JK more than a little prescient and perceptive?

    Plimer!! Somebody just cough? There is a pillory waiting to be used by the likes of he, he may have to join a queue though.

  13. #13 Stu 2
    May 9, 2014

    Lionel @#12.
    Has it occurred to you that well over half the world’s population would consider you as ‘filthy rich’ and would like nothing better than to have your lifestyle?

  14. #14 bill
    May 9, 2014

    2Pid @#13
    Has it occurred to you that your comment is utterly vacuous?

  15. #15 Stu 2
    May 9, 2014

    Bill@#14.
    Are you claiming that, along with you and me & everyone else who comments here, Lionel would NOT be considered enormously privileged and wealthy by well over half the world’s population?
    Or in other words – filthy rich.

  16. #16 BBD
    May 9, 2014

    Stu2

    Are you deliberately misrepresenting what Lionel said, or are you being stupid as per?

    What is the difference between a plutocratic elite and the rest of us?

  17. #17 FrankD
    May 9, 2014

    Premise 1: Equating “vacuous” with “false” requires either a weak grasp of the English language or weapons-grade stupidity.

    Premise 2: Stu2 has reasonably well-developed English language skills.

    Conclusion: I’ll pick door number 2, thanks BBD.

    That’s got to be the feeblest attempt at verballing I’ve read since…oh, probably the last time I read something by Stu2.

  18. #18 bill
    May 9, 2014

    I’m still unable to detect any actual content in his missives.

  19. #19 Lionel A
    May 9, 2014

    2stupid @ #13

    Go find a copy of The Little Earth Book by John Bruges and pay particular attention to pages 59-61. But then you could rearrange your cognitive framework, which is badly distorted, by studying the whole of that small book.

    There are plenty of other texts that could help with the specific issue here but I cited the above in the interests of simplicity. Your simplicity.

  20. #20 Lionel A
    May 9, 2014

    Expect the unexpectd such as this:

    Millions of Birds Terrorize Kentucky City

    The blackbirds and European starlings blacken the sky of Hopkinsville, Ky., before roosting at dusk, turn the landscape white with bird poop, and the disease they carry can kill a dog and sicken humans.

    Alfred is grinning in his grave.

  21. #21 David Duff
    This Septic Isle
    May 9, 2014

    Sorry to interrupt your service – the chanting is rather beautiful, er, in its own way – although there definitely don’t appear to be as many of you as there were! Anyway, alas and alack, I bring bad news. Another traitor to the Cause! Yes, I’m sorry but another “dirty yellow-bellied rat” has jumped the ‘Ship of Fools’ and I must ask you, Brothers and Sisters, to pray for his soul to fry in perpetual global warming, er, when it comes, that is!

    Mind you, this particular rat is not much of a scientist, not like you brainiac swots here. He is merely a climatologist, meteorologist, former director of the Max Planck Institute for Meteorology in Hamburg and winner, in 2006, of the 51st IMO Prize of the World Meteorological Organization for his pioneering work in numerical weather prediction, so, heh, what does he know? Anyway, he’s managed to get through the barbed wire and over the broken-glass topped wall which surrounds our beleaguered little Chapel and now he has joined – whisper who dares! – the GWPF!!!!!!!!!

    His name is Lennart Bengtsson and he used to be such an enthusiastic ‘Warmer’ that he actually believed in Mann’s hockey ‘schtick’! Well, I mean, let’s be honest, not many of us believed in that back in the day, did we?

  22. #22 Lionel A
    May 9, 2014

    …which surrounds our beleaguered little Chapel…

    Now here is the hypocrite who was crowing about how forlorn our ‘religion’ (a most inappropriate term as ours is from understanding and note raw belief) was because of e.g. Climategate.

    One more going emeritus joining up with the ever more shrill ranks of the GWPF amounts to nothing in the grand scheme of things where as extreme weather event after extreme weather event, in a pattern which yells ‘climate change’, the truth is dawning on more and more from the US to the UK and to Asia.

    The ‘emperors’ of the GWPF (no not the foot-soldiers like Peiser) are becoming accutely aware of their nakedness, hence the need to clutch at straws to clothe their shame.

  23. #23 Lionel A
    May 9, 2014

    Listen to the opening of this album to realise what we have lost:

    Johnny Cash – Ride This Train,

    had this on vinyl LP in 64 and my elder daughters wore it till daylight was showing through. Now listening to a CD on Linux box.

  24. #24 BBD
    May 9, 2014

    Quoth Lennart Bengtsson:

    I know some of the scientists in GWPF and they have made fine contributions to science.

    Who and what did he have in mind? Because as regards climate science I am at a loss to know. Here’s the GWPF academic advisory council. You tell me, Duffer. I’m all ears.

    Prof. Bengtsson continues:

    Based on observational data climate sensitivity is clearly rather small and much smaller that the majority of models.

    Ah. Well, for all his credentials in meteorology Prof. Bengtsson knows less about climate sensitivity than I do. I know (and real climate scientists know) that you cannot derive a robust estimate of TCR, let alone ECS, from a short period of “observational” data that is both uncertain and includes estimates of aerosol forcings and is highly sensitive to transient variability in the rate of ocean heat uptake.

    And that’s the charitable explanation for his mistake. The uncharitable one would be that he is claiming that the recent, transient slowdown in the rate of surface warming is indicative of low S.

    Now that would be a far more serious and fundamental error. Let’s hope that’s not what he meant.

    Either way, Prof. Bengtsson is clearly out of his depth.

    Duffers who don’t know what they are talking about are fooled. The rest of us are simply bored.

  25. #25 Lionel A
    May 9, 2014

    Its informative to note which blogs are pushing this Bengtsson puffery, the usual suspects.

    It is almost as if Bengtsson is Lindzen’s new mouth piece.

  26. #26 BBD
    May 9, 2014

    Is anyone else getting periodic audio off this page – which loops and if not stopped results in huge downloads?

  27. #27 BBD
    May 9, 2014

    Lionel

    Yes, all the political blogs pushing a man who claims:

    My interest in climate science is strictly scientific and I very much regret the politicisation that has taken place in climate research.

    Radiative physics is political. Who knew?

    Or perhaps we witness the usual firehose projection at work.

  28. #28 Lionel A
    May 9, 2014

    BBD my link at #23 may be suspect, it was to a YouTube page but now in it goes somewhere else with a ‘Firefox prevented this page from automatically redirecting to another page.’ message.

    Hum!

  29. #29 chek
    May 9, 2014

    Is anyone else getting periodic audio off this page

    Nope, not this page, But what I have noticed this week is that if I’m taking a break from, say, Guardian comments (who tolerate far more denial-stage-one-cretins per day than we do here) the page might reload and some gormless ad will start blaring or looping the first few seconds.

    It’s a fucking pain.

    As is El Duffo who cranks along with his decrepit, rank, public school wannabee version of decayed Moncktonfish humour while saying nothing except “please defer to the wrong authority like me ‘cos |I haven’t a fucking clue except rich people’s interests should be kow-towed to”.
    It’s like Monty Python never happened.
    God, imagine having to listen to that after a dinner. What’s his trading name – Queasy-Sycophant-on-Wheels?
    You Eat it, I’ll Make You Barf It?
    A loathsome creep who hasn’t yet realised that his projected ‘avuncular’ manner is to a 21st Century adult, a similar foul, creepy, exploitative imposition as Savillismm or Harrisism.
    Hopefully when Peak Oil bites hard, there’ll still be enough of the braver, non-turncoat Duffers to keep the boilers of the Peoples Community Warming Grid well fired up.

  30. #30 Stu 2
    May 10, 2014

    BBD @ # 16
    I think that some perspective is sorely missing here.
    Lionel has attempted to use an analogy from Harry Potter (of all things) and also used highly emotive terminology such as “filthy rich’, “impoverished education”, ‘sucking the life force of others’ etc. . .to paint a highly simplistic and melodramatic ‘black hat/white hat’ picture of the world.
    However, in answer to your specific question to me:
    What is the difference between a plutocratic elite and the rest of us?
    Considering that this would probably be an accepted definition of a ‘plutocratic elite’ -
    - an elite or ruling class whose power derives from their wealth:-
    I would argue, from the perspective of well over 50% of the world’s population who do not enjoy the privileges that Lionel, you me etc. . . enjoys (including the time or the means to construct emotive and melodramatic comments on blogs), that their answer to your question (assuming by the ‘rest of us’ you mean people like Lionel commenting on this blog) would be :
    “not much”.

  31. #31 BBD
    May 10, 2014

    2Stu

    I think that some perspective is sorely missing here.

    Couldn’t agree more, old chap.

  32. #32 chek
    May 10, 2014

    2 Stupids isn’t parsing the difference between ‘power’ and ‘wealth’ for some inexplicable reason, or comprehending that while the residents of a western project or arrondisement or sink social housing estate might be materially ‘richer’ than the inhabitants of a third world village, they’re powerlessness to direct their possible futures may be equally limited.
    Most social studies show that inequality within social groups regardless of circumstance or some imposed ‘universal scale’ are corrosive to the common good.
    Essentially, 2Stupid is re-iterating Plimer’s dumb and arrogant point again for him. Who’s surprised at that?.
    .

  33. #33 bill
    May 10, 2014

    Couldn’t agree more. All that 2Pid is contributing to is discussion on whether ‘Libertarian’ (US Corporate Variant) ideas can rightfully be placed somewhere on the autism spectrum.

  34. #34 Stu 2
    May 10, 2014

    Chek @ # 32.
    Are you disagreeing with that definition of a ‘plutocratic elite’ that I supplied in order to help answer BBD’s question?
    -an elite or ruling class whose power derives from their wealth:-
    It is a simple but easily accessible and widely accepted definition of that term. It was neither my personally concocted definition of ‘plutocratic elite’ nor any attempt to parse differences between power and wealth.
    Please feel free to offer an alternate but equally accessible, accepted definition if you don’t like that one.
    Please also bear in mind that the discussion was prompted by Lionel’s comment @ # 12 which I still argue is overly melodramatic and attempts to use a rather laughable comparison with the Harry Potter series.
    Your comment here:
    ‘they’re powerlessness to direct their possible futures may be equally limited.’
    In reference to:
    residents of a western project or arrondisement or sink social housing estate :
    Is demonstrating a similarly narrow perspective IMHO.
    I of course agree that standards in our western democracies are not perfect, egalitarian or even particularly fair but I would still point out that well over 50% of the world’s population would very much envy your lifestyle Chek and very much envy the choices that you do have Chek (including having the time and the means to argue with people on a blog)
    In fact, they would probably consider your lifestyle not particularly dissimilar to that definition of a ‘plutocratic elite’.
    If you don’t think that’s true then can I suggest, with respect, that you consider travelling to some of those underprivileged countries, and if you have any daughters or female companions I would also suggest that you don’t take them with you to places like Nigeria, and start talking to them and honestly comparing your lifestyle choices and many other of your choices (such as what you might have for dinner tomorrow night or which university you will attend) that you can take for granted – with the choices they have available to them.
    Bill @ # 33.
    An leap from or a comparison of a definition of ‘plutocratic elite’ to :
    ‘Libertarian’ (US Corporate Variant) ideas ‘ ???
    As I mentioned at a previous thread, word usage and definitions can often be positively Orwellian by some of the commenters here.
    Here’s a fairly widely accepted definition of the term Libertarian:
    lib·er·tar·i·an n. 1. One who advocates maximizing individual rights and minimizing the role of the state. 2. One who believes in free will. [From liberty.] …
    I don’t know about you Bill, but I don’t think that bears much resemblance to a definition of ‘plutocratic elite’.
    I would however agree that heads of and/or owners of monopolies (including govt bureaucratic monopolies) and other large multinational corporate business leaders can often exhibit behaviour that would indeed fit the definition of ‘plutocratic elite’.

  35. #35 BBD
    May 10, 2014

    Stupid

    The plutocratic elite rules us and so the world. Read what chek wrote at # 32 again.

    What frightens me about your incomprehension is that I think it might be unfeigned.

  36. #36 Lionel A
    May 10, 2014

    Lionel has attempted to use an analogy from Harry Potter (of all things) and also used highly emotive terminology such as “filthy rich’, “impoverished education”, ‘sucking the life force of others’ etc. . .to paint a highly simplistic and melodramatic ‘black hat/white hat’ picture of the world.

    So another ignorant ‘interpreter of interpretations’ doesn’t like an analogy. Surprise, surprise for such is typical of dimensionally limited brains, even if that way from absorption of propaganda, i.e. inappropriate nurture, rather than nature, that is born with limits. That of course does not rule out both conditions in the effect.

    Maybe the righteous one could tell me what I meant by ‘impoverished education’ for I don’t that think there is coincidence here.

  37. #37 BBD
    May 10, 2014

    This blog has been hacked.

    Every fourth time (approx) that I come to the page, I get a bizarre audio stream and a massive unending download.

  38. #38 wmmbb
    May 10, 2014

    Professor Ian Pilmer as “an outspoken critic of stupidity” feels he is on a winner with his latest book. He expects the punters to buy it. He summarizes some of his argument in a friendly interview.

    Are his claims made in relation to the production of alternative energy accurate? In this interview, he makes no reference to climate change, although claiming to be an “environmentalist”, of the non-caving dwelling kind.

    Why is that the “right” have become so anti-science. Professor Pilmer is important, as a geologist and scientist, he is an important “ideologue”.

  39. #39 BBD
    May 10, 2014

    wmmbb asks:

    Why is that the “right” have become so anti-science.

    I refer you to Lord Stern:

    “The problem of climate change involves a fundamental failure of markets: those who damage others by emitting greenhouse gases generally do not pay,” said Sir Nicholas.

    “Climate change is a result of the greatest market failure the world has seen. The evidence on the seriousness of the risks from inaction or delayed action is now overwhelming. We risk damages on a scale larger than the two world wars of the last century. The problem is global and the response must be a collaboration on a global scale.”

    This is not the sort of thing free marketeers want to hear at all. So The Science Must Be Wrong – because the market could never be, could it?

  40. #40 BBD
    May 10, 2014

    Sodding html. Let’s try again:

    wmmbb asks:

    Why is that the “right” have become so anti-science.

    I refer you to Lord Stern:

    “The problem of climate change involves a fundamental failure of markets: those who damage others by emitting greenhouse gases generally do not pay,” said Sir Nicholas.

    “Climate change is a result of the greatest market failure the world has seen. The evidence on the seriousness of the risks from inaction or delayed action is now overwhelming. We risk damages on a scale larger than the two world wars of the last century. The problem is global and the response must be a collaboration on a global scale.”

    This is not the sort of thing free marketeers want to hear at all. So The Science Must Be Wrong – because the market could never be, could it?

  41. #41 Lionel A
    May 10, 2014

    BBD @#37

    Every so often I see this under the Firefox toolbar,

    ‘Firefox prevented this page from automatically redirecting to another page.’

    I have been looking at the page using Console, Inspector, but don’t know enough to pick out the fleas. Might be something to do with the GoogleSyndication add’s.

    Check your browser settings.

  42. #42 BBD
    May 10, 2014

    Lionel

    I’ve been through the page code this afternoon, and I have carried out a number of system scans with various adware and malware detection kits and the best I can come up with is *maybe* Adobe Shockwave is dumping audio intermittently when I access this page. Maybe. It is something of a mystery, but no doubt it will resolve. I have made some alterations to the browser page permissions which have resulted in the longest – so far – cessation of the problem in a week. But it is still far to early to say if the patching has achieved anything.

    Even as I write, the apparently fully loaded page has just spontaneously gone back into “connecting” mode, and it will stay that way until it is manually reloaded.

    Something *very* odd is going on.

  43. #43 wmmbb
    Bulli NSW
    May 10, 2014

    Thanks and thanks, BBD. for the quote and the reference.

    Seven years, perhaps more, is a long time for a scientist of the stature of Professor Pilmer to be in denial. If he is part of the 3% – and good luck to him – he needs to present compelling arguments that will persuade an expert audience, in relation to the measurement of atmospheric carbon dioxide, or whatever else is so unreliable as to be not useful. The distinction between an “ideologue” and a scientist is clear.

    As per Thomas Kuhn climate science seems to be within the existing scientific paradigm, unless system science and its’s tools represents in effect a changed paradigm.

  44. #44 BBD
    May 10, 2014

    wmmbb

    he [Plimer] needs to present compelling arguments that will persuade an expert audience

    He’s absolutely failed to do that with Heaven and Earth, which was nonsense from start to finish. And which was absolutely panned from start to finish, eg here. Ian Enting’s debunk is probably the most detailed.

    Yet Plimer is making a noise and some people are still listening to it. A sorry state of affairs.

  45. #45 chek
    May 10, 2014

    BBD, It might be an idea for you to uninstall Adobe Flash Player and Shockwave and reinstall those.

    And have you tried c*o*m*b*o*f*I*x (without the asterisks)?
    Available from Bleeping Computer

    Disclaimer – SUBS (the author) does not recommend using it without guidance from one of their malware experts on the forums, but I’ve used it dozens of times on infected systems to good effect.
    Check :
    1) reg (registry) loading files Windows startup files – Google anything you don’t recognise. A Hijack This scan will let you disable and delete anything suspicious.
    2) R flies – do the same. These load when your browser starts
    3) locked files in the report, do the same..
    And then do a follow up clean-up with Malwarebytes and you should be clear.

  46. #46 Stu 2
    May 10, 2014

    This looks a bit like some ‘conspiracist ideation’ might be occuring here :-)
    “The plutocratic elite rules us and so the world”
    “This blog has been hacked”

  47. #47 chek
    May 10, 2014

    Correction to #45
    The HiJack this scan comes AFTER checking through
    Step 2) R files

  48. #48 chek
    May 10, 2014

    Not sure anyone apart from you is ideating any connection, smileyface modified or not.

    And yes, hi-traffic sites (scienceblogs,as a whole, not necessarily Deltoid specifically) are frequently hacked.
    Bot armies don’t make themselves y’know (although after a certain point they actually do).

  49. #49 BBD
    May 11, 2014

    Chek

    Thanks and happily, we are working along the same lines of thought. And 8 hours now without bollocks… Might be nailed.

  50. #50 BBD
    May 11, 2014

    2Stu

    This looks a bit like some ‘conspiracist ideation’ might be occuring here :-)

    “The plutocratic elite rules us and so the world”

    Plutocratic elites *do* rule the world.

    * * *

    Isn’t it perennially amusing how spokespersons for libertarinanism never seem to recognise that they are apologists for the very thing they decry?

  51. #51 Stu 2
    May 11, 2014

    Spokesperson for libertarianism?
    Apologists for the very thing they decry?
    :-)
    That ‘conspiracist ideation’ looks like it’s still occurring.
    To use your own terminology BBD.
    Go back and read what was written.
    Then please demonstrate how my comments in your summation above have led you to conclude:
    a) I am a spokesperson for libertarianism &/or
    b) I am an apologist for plutocratic elitism.

  52. #52 chek
    May 11, 2014

    2Stupid, please understand that the purpose of trolling is to derail, using pedantry or other means.
    Also, please remember that your history precedes you.

  53. #53 bill
    May 11, 2014

    I think your problem, 2Pid, is that you are ‘debating’ with neurotypicals. YOU clearly think you’re making insightful, incisive points; WE see incoherent, barely-relevant vacuities.

    The very fact that we see you as a far-Right corporate apologist pseudo Libertarian is only an indicator of what a poor communicator you are if, in fact, you’re something else.

    You’ve already denied repeatedly that actual Libertarians™ * are corporate stooges, this denial being one of the key hallmarks of that very breed.

    As is claiming that any reference to their very-evident domination of the global polity is ‘conspiracy ideation’ (used in the conventional, pejorative ‘that’s just an unfounded persecution narrative’ sense, not the technical sense).

    The claim that the Murdochs, Kochs, Rineharts etc. of this world do not have a grotesquely disproportionate capacity to influence political agendas – particularly on the basis that some folks somewhere see all westerners as absurdly rich – is so dumb it’s not even worth unpacking.

    If that wasn’t what you were saying; well, again, your communication skills clearly don’t make the grade, but I’m also afraid your rationalization for posting what is otherwise a total irrelevance would equally be dull, dull, dull.

    *US patent pending

  54. #55 bill
    May 11, 2014

    And the tale gets more so

    Bob Ward is a legend, and a ‘Serengeti strategy’ deployed against him can only serve to further raise his prominence and influence à la Mike Mann.

  55. #56 Stu 2
    May 11, 2014

    Bill @#53 and Chek @#52
    I do not usually find that I have trouble communicating.
    In actual fact, as Frank D pointed out earlier, there is little amiss with my grasp of the language or my ability to employ the written language to communicate.
    However, very perversely, from your comments above, I could easily be forgiven for questioning your comprehension abilities.
    Let me be crystal clear.
    This is NOT and has NEVER BEEN anywhere close to anything I have ever argued at this blog:
    “The claim that the Murdochs, Kochs, Rineharts etc. of this world do not have a grotesquely disproportionate capacity to influence political agendas”
    They DO INDEED have some capacity to influence all sorts of agendas, including political agendas and it IS INDEED related to their personal wealth. Your attempt to imply that I have argued otherwise is nearly as laughable as Lionel’s attempt to explain the world with an analogy to JK Rowling’s invention of the magical world of witches and wizards in the Harry Potter series. While I don’t disagree that the story is somewhat allegorical, Lionel’s attempted analogy was lacking in perspective, overly simplistic and melodramatic (particularly his white hat/black hat portrayal)
    Let’s not forget, for those who are familiar with this highly successful series, that Voldemort was not the sole perpetrator of evil. Wasn’t he aided and abetted by numerous members of the Ministry of Magic and wasn’t the references to said ministry perhaps a damning portrayal of government and bureaucracy in our modern world? Even more particularly, couldn’t it be interpreted that JK Rowling was, through allegory, criticising Government and Bureaucracies and their tendency to stifle education, obstruct development and progress and curtail personal liberty (or maybe Lionel would prefer ‘impoverished education”) ?
    This next part of your comment is inappropriately juxtaposed with the first part, as my original comment was prompted by Lionel’s comments about the ‘filthy rich’.
    here:
    ” – particularly on the basis that some folks somewhere see all westerners as absurdly rich – ‘
    I will also draw to your attention to the fact that your flippant and dismissive comment about “some folks somewhere’ actually refers to well over 50% of the world’s population who would indeed very much envy your lifestyle Bill and Chek and your lifestyle choices and who would not see much difference between the lifestyle you enjoy Bill and Chek and your own personal perspectives of the ‘plutocratic elite’ or as Lionel originally commented the “filthy rich”.

  56. #57 chek
    May 11, 2014

    What is I about toy-town ibertariasauruses that they cannot comprehend collective action and the organisation required to achieve common goals?

    If x million kids need to be educated every year, y million sick people need to be medical treated and z million people need to be watered and seweraged then collective organisation is necessary. The alternatives are even more grossly inefficient than what we have

    The only basic requirement left for the ‘free market’ in most civilised countries is for food, and what a shit job they’re making of it. Basic foods adulterated with sugars and fats, colossal wastage, an obesity crisis and millions still starving.

    Not to mention the pressures caused by agribusiness – the favoured monocultures reducing our global ability to withstand blight, reliance on petrochemicals to induce fertility and devastation of natural habitats vital to other non-human organisms.

    And we haven’t even touched on industrial scale marine devastation from surface to seabed. All in the cause of ‘free-market’ food, run by companies mainly concerned with quarterly balances rather than prospects a quarter century from now.

    couldn’t it be interpreted that JK Rowling was, through allegory, criticising Government and Bureaucracies and their tendency to stifle education, obstruct development and progress and curtail personal liberty (or maybe Lionel would prefer ‘impoverished education”) ?

    It seems that ‘stifling and obstruction’ is exactly the approach of such fake libertarians as Heartland seeking to impose their free-market garbage and anti-scientific agenda on the education system as was exposed by the Gleick Affair.

    Stifling what children are allowed to lean in support of producing obedient consumers and obstructing science inconvenient to that end.

    You stick with your toy-town, university compiled dictionary definitions Cammy, because the real face of modern ‘libertarianism’ is to destroy democracy in favour of unchallenged corporate power. Corporate power being the last relic of feudalism in the western world.

  57. #58 Stu 2
    May 11, 2014

    Chek @ # 57,
    That would have to be one of the best constructs of a straw man argument that I have seen in quite some time.
    I am of course assuming, through context, that rant was directed at me even though you seem to have coined yet another name from Stu 2?
    It’s a bit too cryptic for me however.
    Perhaps you just made an error?

  58. #59 FrankD
    May 11, 2014

    couldn’t it be interpreted that JK Rowling was, through allegory, criticising Government and Bureaucracies and their tendency to stifle education, obstruct development and progress and curtail personal liberty

    Fuck Nell, in Stu2′s world Atlas Shrugged was a Harry Potter prequel.

    In actual fact, as Frank D pointed out earlier, there is little amiss with my grasp of the language or my ability to employ the written language to communicate.

    Stu2 agrees with my syllogism: that Stu2 was being stupid, as per.

    We’ve already established Stu2′s economic chops on previous threads, where he has owned up to thinking that things that contributed to problems are the solutions to those problems, and its okay to distort the market to make rich people richer, but not okay to correct market distortionsif that will stop them becoming richer still.

    Really he’s just GSW with a dictionary.

  59. #60 chek
    May 11, 2014

    2pid, let me put it this way, survival is not a consumer choice, and free market ideologies don’t have the conceptual framework for dealing with existential threats.

    The only large scale existential threats western democracies have had to deal wioth have been wars, and the response (for the majority, not the profiteers) was enforced socialism which was largely tolerated because most people believed that ‘we’re all in this together’.

    There is no individual-based ideology that can cope with the current perilous situation we’re in. Except of course, denial.

  60. #61 chek
    May 11, 2014

    Anyone remember the deniers’ favourite one about CO2 being plant food, and the more the better?

    Not so, according to a newly published paper in Nature.

    Dietary deficiencies of zinc and iron are a substantial global public health problem. An estimated two billion people suffer these deficiencies1, causing a loss of 63 million life-years annually2, 3. Most of these people depend on C3 grains and legumes as their primary dietary source of zinc and iron. Here we report that C3 grains and legumes have lower concentrations of zinc and iron when grown under field conditions at the elevated atmospheric CO2 concentration predicted for the middle of this century. C3 crops other than legumes also have lower concentrations of protein, whereas C4 crops seem to be less affected. Differences between cultivars of a single crop suggest that breeding for decreased sensitivity to atmospheric CO2 concentration could partly address these new challenges to global health.

  61. #62 David Duff
    This Septic Isle
    May 11, 2014

    I worry about Brother Chek. He actually mentioned “Peak Oil” [sic] and doesn’t seem to realise that we all agreed not to mention that particular red herring again seeing that we have already passed at least three ‘absolutely definite dates’ for it to occur and still the lovely stuff gushes forth in abundance.

    I mean, if he keeps reminding people of our, shall we say, little lapses, they might notice that it’s not getting any warmer – and then where would we be?

  62. #63 BBD
    May 11, 2014

    Duffer

    they might notice that it’s not getting any warmer – and then where would we be?

    Since OHC is increasing rapidly, “it” – correctly defined as the climate system IS getting warmer.

    You have had this pointed out to you innumerable times now, so you must be knowingly repeating misinformation.

    That makes you a liar.

  63. #64 chek
    May 11, 2014

    Y’know Duffer I despair thatanyone can ber sold and so stupid. I used to presume that the acquisition of wisdom was one trade off for loss of youth, but that’s obviously not so.

    If oil is so ‘abundant, then why have the prices of the oil we burn (red line) and the o0il we eat (black line, wheat prices)
    more than doubled since 2000?

    And if, as you parrot, it’s not getting any warmer, then who’s stealing all the polar ice?

  64. #65 BBD
    May 11, 2014

    #51

    Go back and read what was written.
    Then please demonstrate how my comments in your summation above have led you to conclude:
    a) I am a spokesperson for libertarianism &/or
    b) I am an apologist for plutocratic elitism.</blockquote

    Ah, more dishonest evasions from a liar. Ever heard of lying by omission, Pid?

    Why do you never comment to criticise the other vermin here like GSW who denies the fact that plutocratic elites have created and covertly funded a denial industry? Never. Not once. Ever.

    Answer me that.

    Sometimes it’s what you don’t say that identifies you as an apologist for libertarianism and plutocratic elitism. And a liar by omission.

    Why do you instead shit on to me about “conspiracist ideation” just like GSW and others have done? Don’t you understand that these childish attempts to delegitimise me place you firmly on the side of the scum who are subverting democracy for personal gain?

    You are a lackey, and apparently 2Stupid even to recognise the fact. Lick the boot until you can see your face in the shiny toecap and wake up.

  65. #66 BBD
    May 11, 2014

    Sodding html

    Go back and read what was written.
    Then please demonstrate how my comments in your summation above have led you to conclude:
    a) I am a spokesperson for libertarianism &/or
    b) I am an apologist for plutocratic elitism.

    Ah, more dishonest evasions from a liar. Ever heard of lying by omission, Pid?

    Why do you never comment to criticise the other vermin here like GSW who denies the fact that plutocratic elites have created and covertly funded a denial industry? Never. Not once. Ever.

    Answer me that.

    Sometimes it’s what you don’t say that identifies you as an apologist for libertarianism and plutocratic elitism. And a liar by omission.

    Why do you instead shit on to me about “conspiracist ideation” just like GSW and others have done? Don’t you understand that these childish attempts to delegitimise me place you firmly on the side of the scum who are subverting democracy for personal gain?

    You are a lackey, and apparently 2Stupid even to recognise the fact. Lick the boot until you can see your face in the shiny toecap and wake up.

  66. #67 chek
    May 11, 2014

    Try that again with working links

    Y’know Duffer I despair that anyone can be so old and so stupid. I used to presume that the acquisition of wisdom was one trade off for loss of youth, but that’;s obviously not so.

    If oil is so abundant, then why have the prices of the oil we burn (red line) and the oil we eat (black line, wheat prices)
    more than doubled since 2000?
    And if, as you parrot, it’s not getting any warmer, then who’s stealing all the polar ice?

  67. #68 Lionel A
    May 11, 2014

    …they might notice that it’s not getting any warmer – and then where would we be?

    In ‘cloud [initial mistype as 'clod' - prescient or not?] cuckoo land, like you. Talking of cuckoos when was the last time you saw or heard one in this country of ours – England?

    Just so happens this evening’s BBC edition of ‘Countryfile’ included a section on the way that nature is already responding to ‘climate change’, also an interview with Richard Betts at the Met’ Office who explained clearly what is really happening and at an increasing rate with a truly frightening look ahead to projections out to the end of the century where global temperatures are concerned.

    But we have already been there and explained this to the likes of you using many examples from the scientific community. Only the ideologically deranged can keep banging on like the Duffers of the world. Use that Daily Fail instead of Andrex and preferably before reading it as it pollutes your brain cell.

  68. #69 chek
    May 11, 2014

    On a stick … 3rd time lucky.

    Y’know Duffer I despair that anyone can be so old and so stupid. I used to presume that the acquisition of wisdom was one trade off for loss of youth, but that’;s obviously not so.

    If oil is so abundant, then why have the prices of the oil we burn (red line) and the oil we eat (black line, wheat prices)
    more than doubled since 2000?
    And if, as you parrot, it’s not getting any warmer, then who’s stealing all the polar ice?

  69. #70 Lionel A
    May 11, 2014

    …and still the lovely stuff gushes forth in abundance.

    Doh! You just cannot grasp multidimensional realities can you.
    Why do you think they are converting Alberta into a form of Mordor and fracking for tight oil and adopting crazy schemes such as coal bed methane extraction?

    Get a frigging clue you clod!

  70. #71 David Duff
    This Septic Isle
    May 11, 2014

    You know, Brothers, for ‘brainiac swots’ you do seem to have a lot of trouble writing English and publishing it. I worry for you.

    However, so-called ‘peak oil’, this is from 2011:

    “This is actually the fifth time in modern history that we’ve seen widespread fear that the world was running out of oil. The first was in the 1880s, when production was concentrated in Pennsylvania and it was said that no oil would be found west of the Mississippi. Then oil was found in Texas and Oklahoma. Similar fears emerged after the two world wars. And in the 1970s, it was said that the world was going to fall off the “oil mountain.” But since 1978, world oil output has increased by 30%.

    Just in the years 2007 to 2009, for every barrel of oil produced in the world, 1.6 barrels of new reserves were added. And other developments—from more efficient cars and advances in batteries, to shale gas and wind power—have provided reasons for greater confidence in our energy resiliency. Yet the fear of peak oil maintains its powerful grip.”

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424053111904060604576572552998674340

    The more the price goes up, the harder those pesky oilmen search for new ways to extract more of the stuff. Equally, the more the oil producing nations engage in warfare the less of the stuff is around – but of course, it’s still there, it still exists, it’s just waiting for better times.

    Unlike Pte. Fraser’s gloomy prognostication, ‘we are not all doomed’!

  71. #72 chek
    May 11, 2014

    Duffer you fail to grasp that ‘peak oil’ means that demand outstrips supply, therefore the price increases. It’s quite straightforward. However much is found, it’s not enough to meet demand, hence the doubling in price in 12 years. You might (though I doubt it) ponder that.
    And this is happening when geological exploration is far more sophisticated than the 1970s. Finite resources are by definition finite.

  72. #73 chek
    May 11, 2014

    Equally, the more the oil producing nations engage in warfare the less of the stuff is around – but of course, it’s still there, it still exists, it’s just waiting for better times.

    I missed this classic of head-in-the-sand denialism.

    Duffer you seem to assumer it’s some sort of coincidence that nations situated on oil lakes ‘engage in warfare’. Don’t you think that there may be a reason related to scarcity behind the aggression? Just as in Central Africa, the sole source of certain rare earth metals vital to the electronics industry, conflict is caused by the presence of their resources.

    How can you not know this?

  73. #74 BBD
    May 11, 2014

    No massive new and cheaply accessible oil fields to scale with the ones found during the second half of the C20th have been discovered for a while now. Hence, ultimately, the interest in Alberta’s tar sands and other “unconventional” sources.

    Economically recoverable oil reserves are finite and depleting and the cost of extraction is rising as the process becomes more challenging. This partly explains the price signal and demand vs supply completes the picture.

    One must face the facts. Argument over the The era of cheap oil is over and costs can only rise during the course of this century. Commenters concerned by the plight of the developing world and the disadvantaged citizens of the developed economies should ponder this.

  74. #75 chek
    May 11, 2014

    As the fatuous ignorance of Duffer is still fresh, let’s burst his ill-informed fuckwitted ignorance, even though it’s been done so many times already, one wonders why the punch-drunk stupid fuck keeps coming back for more.
    The main discoveries in recent history have been
    1)Kashagan field, discovered in 2000s is believed to hold 38 billion barrels
    2)Prudhoe Bay field in Alaska was about 13 billion barrels.
    3)Ferdows, Iran is almost always discussed in combination with Mound and Zagheh, and together they represent reserves of 31 billion barrels of oil
    4)Santos/Campos, Brazilan oil field containing about 123 billion barrels of oil
    8)Ghawar, Saudi Arabia Ghawar’s size has been estimated at 162 billion barrels of oil, but there has been no independent verification since 1975.

    Meanwhile, 32 billion barrels a year are used globally.

    Perhaps that explains why maths are not the strongpoint of the British elite and their fawning, cringing, Daily Fail reading supporters.

  75. #76 bill
    May 11, 2014

    Re#56

    You see, what we must remember is that because of the circles 2Pid moves in, he’s not really talking about our world.

    In his world JK’s not-well-known-here sister Ayn published a series of novels that became a huge hit among the Breitbart/IPA set; Harry Potter and the Torch of Liberty, Harry Potter and the Rent Seekers of Doom, etc. that culiminate in his final spectacular showdown with the forces of darkness – the despised and fearsome Regulators.

    Same planet, different worlds, eh, 2Pid?

    This cultural divide also explains other behaviours. Among the IPA set it’s completely normal, when confronted with comprehensive refutations of your ‘arguments’, to simply repeat them ad nauseam, because anyone who might dispute what you’ve said clearly simply hasn’t heard you, otherwise they’d believe what you believe, and can only stand to benefit from hearing your original claim for the umpteenth time…

  76. #77 Stu 2
    May 11, 2014

    BBD @ # 65 & 66.
    I am surprised that you have not noticed that I generally don’t engage on this blog using personal comments or calling people names like liar, stupid, delusional, intellectually dishonest etc.
    Despite your assertions otherwise, I was not attempting to engage in some sort of conspiracy to delegitimise you personally over your interpretation of ‘conspiracist ideation’. I was questioning the interpretation as it did not appear to be correct.
    It’s OK BBD, people make mistakes all the time, it doesn’t mean that you are being personally attacked, personally victimised or ‘delegitimised’ when those errors are pointed out.
    I do not regard you or GSW or anyone else as some sort of personal enemy. What would be the point of that?
    One of your concluding remarks:
    “Don’t you understand that these childish attempts to delegitimise me place you firmly on the side of the scum who are subverting democracy for personal gain?”
    Is just simply nonsense.
    Just because you get questioned does not therefore automatically mean that I am on some nefarious ‘side’ that subverts democracy and/ or that I deny that humans impact environments and/or that I don’t care about these things.
    That’s pure nonsense BBD and likely reveals more about you than anyone else.
    Can I suggest, with respect, that your oft demonstrated tendency to pass character judgement based on your own personal judgement of what you personally imagine you can read between the lines, actually bears a remarkable resemblance to your original misinterpretation of the term ‘conspiracist ideation’ ?
    As a further note BBD, can I also suggest that you look back over your comments, thread after thread after open thread and consider who may be one of the more obvious suspects when it comes to making unjustified personal accusations, personal abuse and launching attempts to ‘delegitimise’ others?

  77. #78 chek
    May 11, 2014

    Cammy, instead of your endless dialogue about dialogue, why not try something next time of interest to others, outside of your own preening self-regard which seems to be top of your list?

  78. #79 Stu 2
    May 12, 2014

    Chek,
    Once again, only from context, I will assume that little piece of personal abuse was directed at me? I don’t know why you have now used ‘Cammy’ twice to refer to me.
    You may have noticed that BBD asked me a question.
    Are you claiming that I have no right to answer direct questions?

  79. #80 BBD
    May 12, 2014

    Stu2

    Answer the question:

    Why do you never comment to criticise the other vermin here like GSW who denies the fact that plutocratic elites have created and covertly funded a denial industry? Never. Not once. Ever.

    Answer me that.

    Why do you instead repeatedly invoke the “conspirasist ideation” rhetoric as an avoidance tactic?

    Of course this is a rhetorical question, but let’s see: can you think?

  80. #81 Stu 2
    May 12, 2014

    BBD.
    I answered your question @ # 77.
    Perhaps the issue you might be having is that my answer to your direct question to me was not what you believe my answer should be? (rhetorical or otherwise)
    Let me try again.
    In summary.
    I don’t automatically assume that you or GSW or anyone else who comments here are vermin or liars or in denial or- to quote you- “firmly on the side” of any real or imagined conspiracies from whatever ‘side’ that may be real or imaginary.
    Neither am I even slightly interested in ‘delegitimising’ anybody in particular, including you.
    Therefore BBD, I don’t see any intrinsic value in encouraging personal abuse and personal comments or in fuelling overly emotional, exaggerated, melodramatic behaviour based on a concept of ‘sides’.
    Or perhaps even more simply.
    I don’t consider you or GSW or anyone else as my enemy.
    I hope that helps?

  81. #82 David Duff
    This Septic Isle
    May 12, 2014

    Chek, my little Deltoid Brother, do calm down, dear!

    If you scaremongers have been wrong five times in recent decades, why should we believe you now?

    “Just in the years 2007 to 2009, for every barrel of oil produced in the world, 1.6 barrels of new reserves were added. [...]
    Overall U.S. oil production has increased more than 10% since 2008. Net oil imports reached a high point of 60% in 2005, but today, thanks to increased production and greater energy efficiency (plus the use of ethanol), imports are down to 47%.
    Things don’t stand still in the energy industry. With the passage of time, unconventional sources of oil, in all their variety, become a familiar part of the world’s petroleum supply. They help to explain why the plateau continues to recede into the horizon—and why, on a global view, Hubbert’s Peak is still not in sight.”

    Hubbert, by the way, was one of the first scaremongers and almost everything he predicted was wrong!

  82. #83 chek
    May 12, 2014

    That’s how you do it in denierland folks – not one supported fact, and an invitation to ‘have faith’. Oh, and then accuse your questioner of being the one belonging to a faith cult.
    Projection all the way down the line.

  83. #84 bill
    May 12, 2014

    Try 0.5 barrels, dork. And try not channeling Daniel Yergin.

    Oil as we knew it peaked in 2006. Get over it. All the rest is ‘unconventional’ (i.e. Mordor), cornucopian absurdity, and/or creative accounting.

  84. #85 Lionel A
    May 12, 2014

    If you scaremongers have been wrong five times in recent decades, why should we believe you now?

    Only to somebody who has his head up his fundament and cannot understand multiply faceted problems.

    Ever heard of ‘the law of diminishing returns’?

    This is kicking in across many aspects of resource supply and to the expense of the environment.

    Ask yourself why BP felt it necessary to drill in deep water offshore, cut corners with cost and then persist in refusing to acknowledge the extent of the damage that they caused with that Deepwater Horizon sea bed gusher. Just as Exxon have still to fully fess up and pay up after Exxon Valdez. These two are just at the head of a long list of disasters here’s another and recent one, one of many just over the past twelve months.:

    Fracking Well Leak Spills 1,600 Gallons Of Oil Drilling Lubricant Into An Ohio Tributary,

    now look around over there and you will find reports on fracturing oil and gas pipelines, derailing oil-trains most leading to loss of life for some, reduction in quality of life for others due to damage or pollution. Then there is the slow ticking time bombs of peoples health affected by the ‘nasties’ in the spillages.

    Your are being either stupidly ignorant or dishonest on this question, you chose!

  85. #86 BBD
    May 12, 2014

    2Stupid the Liar

    I answered your question @ # 77.

    No you didn’t. You engaged in some self-justificatory and utterly dishonest twaddle.

    GFY.

  86. #87 BBD
    May 12, 2014

    Let’s try again.

    Ever heard of lying by omission, Pid?

    Why do you never comment to criticise the other vermin here like GSW who denies the fact that plutocratic elites have created and covertly funded a denial industry? Never. Not once. Ever.

    Answer me that.

    Sometimes it’s what you don’t say that identifies you as an apologist for libertarianism and plutocratic elitism. And a liar by omission.

    Answer the fucking question this time.

  87. #88 BBD
    May 12, 2014

    chek

    2Stu’s whiny, tone-trollish style is very reminiscent of “chameleon”. And the “dunno what you mean” denial stank of dishonesty. I think you might be on the money there.

  88. #89 Lotharsson
    May 12, 2014

    2Stu’s whiny, tone-trollish style is very reminiscent of “chameleon”.

    IIRC I made that observation months ago, but the reference I used went over Stu 2′s head. Come to think of it, an awful lot went over chameleon’s head too ;-)

  89. #90 BBD
    May 12, 2014

    Odd how the deniers and climate liars are so fond of their sock puppets. Or perhaps not so odd. Running a sock is just another manifestation of a dishonest personality.

  90. #91 Lionel A
    May 12, 2014

    Ice sheets melting rate underestimated, although many have realised this possibility the realities:

    Scientists’ Concerns Challenge Conservative Sea-Level Rise Projections.

    Those of us who have studied recent papers, or read e.g. Cronin 2010 know where some of those paleo’ comparisons are coming from.

  91. #92 Stu 2
    May 12, 2014

    BBD.
    Your question was answered.
    It was a direct question to me about why I don’t personally attack others.That was my answer to that particular question.
    If you don’t like the answer – there’s nothing I can do to help you.
    If you want a different answer – consider asking a different question.
    But thanks for sort of explaining why Chek was referring to me
    as Cammy.
    I now realise why it made no sense.
    I guess it must be yet another one of those imagined conspiracies that what you would possibly call ‘both sides’ seem to be enamoured with?

  92. #93 bill
    May 12, 2014

    Being Chebbie would explain the lack of content in the posts. Also fits with being so galactically smug about their own incomprehension.

    And with being dull indeed. So here’s something more interesting.

  93. #94 Stu 2
    May 13, 2014

    Bill @ # 93.
    Here’s some content just for you :-)
    http://www.nature.com/nclimate/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nclimate2235.html
    Yet paradoxically:
    Rainfall data Southern Australia:
    http://www.bom.gov.au/cgi-bin/climate/change/timeseries.cgi?graph=rain&area=saus&season=0112&ave_yr=0
    A BoM report on decreasing winds/storminess:
    http://www.bom.gov.au/amm/docs/2011/alexander_hres.pdf
    And look what this person has done!
    Lennart Bengtsson – a Swedish climatologist, meteorologist, former director of the Max Planck Institute for Meteorology in Hamburg and winner, in 2006, of the 51st IMO Prize of the World Meteorological Organization.
    http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/05/08/Leading-climate-scientist-defects-no-longer-believes-in-the-consensus

  94. #95 Lotharsson
    May 13, 2014

    I don’t believe Stu 2 is Chameleon, but I wouldn’t rule out that they hang out at the same places at times.

    Mind you, the dodgy sources that Stu 2 uses could be responsible for that impression.

  95. #96 Stu 2
    May 13, 2014

    Lotharsson @# 95.
    Other than the link to the story about Bengtsson, what do you find dodgy about those sources @ # 94 L?
    2 were from BoM & 1 from Nature.

  96. #97 Marco
    May 13, 2014

    Stu 2, Bengtsson has given an interesting and rather revealing interview on Der Klimazwiebel (I’ll let you find it yourself). In it he expresses concern about the politicization (his word) of climate science, and then expresses his own opinion on various policy decisions, including his own preference for adaptation against climate change. Interesting, no? Being worried about politicization and then come with political opinions and joining an obviously political thinktank.

    Sadly I don’t think Bengtsson even realizes the cognitive dissonance of his own decision, and the fact that he is just concerned that *his* political opinion isn’t heard loud enough. He also doesn’t realize that he’s just aligned himself with serially wrong people like Ian Plimer and Bob Carter.

  97. #98 BBD
    May 13, 2014

    BBD.
    Your question was answered.

    Liar.

    Why do you never comment to criticise the other vermin here like GSW who denies the fact that plutocratic elites have created and covertly funded a denial industry? Never. Not once. Ever.

    Answer me that.

    Sometimes it’s what you don’t say that identifies you as an apologist for libertarianism and plutocratic elitism. And a liar by omission.

    Answer the fucking question this time.

    Stop lying and stop being evasive.

    * * *

    And look what this person has done!
    Lennart Bengtsson

    Who cares what he has done? He is clueless. Why don’t you read the thread before posting redundant inanities like this?

  98. #99 BBD
    May 13, 2014

    Here’s another question for you to evade.

    You refused to criticise GSW’s frantic evasiveness on the April thread when I repeatedly asked him a simple question. He, like you, had much to say about imaginary conspiracies by way of avoiding answering a direct question, so you had better make your own position clear.

    Do you deny that it is a matter of fact that corporate vested interests created and now covertly fund a denial industry?

    Yes or no.

    Answer.

    To assist your obviously woeful powers of recall, let’s briefly review the April thread. Remember this? And this? You are still playing that game. Still. And you wonder why you are treated with contempt.

    Now, following on, watch GSW wriggle and dodge and act like the vermin he is and never answer the question. Be sure and read to the end. Notice how you said not one fucking word? Spot that too?

    Now, let’s see if you sink lower than GSW did in desperately trying not to admit the truth about the denial industry.

    You’ve been wriggling desperately over the thorny question of why you never, ever criticise the other vermin here, and now this too.

    Oooh. Pressure.

    It will intensify.

  99. #100 BBD
    May 13, 2014

    Sodding html.

    Let’s briefly review the April thread. Remember this? And this? You are still playing that game. Still. And you wonder why you are treated with contempt.

    Now, follwing on, watch GSW wriggle and dodge and act like the vermin he is and never answer the question. Be sure and read to the end. Notice how you said not one fucking word? Spot that too?