August 2014 Open Thread

More thread.

Comments

  1. #1 David B. Benson
    August 9, 2014

    Here is a useful energy source, when ready:
    http://www.nuscalepower.com/

  2. #2 Lionel A
    August 10, 2014

    David, that looks like some of the solutions described and advocated by William J Nuttall in his book Nuclear Renaissance: Technologies and Policies for the Future of Nuclear Power.

    However any nuclear renaissance has been declared dead by IMHO out-of-touch critics, especially since ‘Fukushima’.

    William Nuttall has provided more context whilst pointing out that other power generation methods are in many ways more dangerous when the dangers of fuel sourcing and pollution of water and air are considered in this video:

    William Nuttall: Fukushima, Nuclear Renaissance, Energy Policy.

  3. #3 Olaus Petri
    August 10, 2014

    Dear Lionel, you seem to be the rat that doesn’t understand that the fishing boat is sinking fast. :-)

  4. #4 Lionel A
    August 10, 2014

    Did one of our twerps just break wind?

  5. #5 Olaus Petri
    August 10, 2014

    Sorry Lionel, should have known better than to disturb your talking to yourself. :-)

  6. #6 Russell
    August 10, 2014
  7. #7 Craig Thomas
    August 10, 2014

    I guess Olaus missed the following, which proves that it is *he* who is up the creek without a paddle:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/07/business/international/russia-may-be-losing-influence-over-european-energy-markets.html

    A few key phrases:

    The chiefs of big gas middlemen … would sit down with their counterparts at Gazprom or Sonatrach… and work out long-term contracts linked to the price of oil.

    big industrial customers are insisting on prices determined by the actual trading of gas

    he European gas market is beginning to resemble that of the United States, where gas is priced according to what buyers and sellers will pay, not linked to much more expensive oil.

    Europe’s much-criticized renewables push is also influencing energy markets. In the first half of this year, 28.5 percent of German electric power came from renewable energy sources like wind and solar power — a nearly 4 percent increase over a year earlier. Britain is also surging ahead, with almost 15 percent of electricity coming from renewable sources, an increase of almost one-third.

    Although the growth of electricity generated by offshore wind farms and vast solar arrays is a nasty headache for fossil-fuel utilities, these unconventional power installations are reducing demand for gas and coal in Europe.

    Russia’s influence over European energy markets is weakening rather than growing stronger.

    Prices for future delivery of gas have dropped more than 30 percent over the past year on the British market

    The European Union, which has been under pressure from industries to ease back on costly new emission-cutting requirements, is taking note of this unexpected strategic gain from renewables, which comes as the Union is formulating energy policies for the next 15 years.

    On July 23, Günther Oettinger, the top European energy official, told reporters that a higher-than-expected energy savings target would be recommended for 2030 because of “the need for energy security in gas because of the situation in Russia and Ukraine,” according to Reuters.

    Whatever domestic energy supplies Europe can tap will strengthen its hand and serve as insurance. In that sense, renewables are important cards to hold.

    “The Ukraine crisis could act as a wake-up call for European decision makers to increase the use of renewable energy,” said Marcus Ferdinand, an analyst at Point Carbon, a research firm based in Oslo.

  8. #8 Craig Thomas
    August 10, 2014

    Russell, it’s tragic to see a formerly respected scientists like Geoff Derrick getting sucked into the kooky world of science-denial and support for kook-bloggers like Watts.

  9. #9 Craig Thomas
    August 11, 2014

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-10/agricultural-giant-says-climate-change-absolutely-real/5659058

    Olam International chief executive Sunny Verghese has told Landline that agricultural producers and processors need to take action now.

    “It is absolutely a reality that climate change is going to significantly impact agriculture,” he said.

    “It impacts it both from the nexus it has with water, and the nexus it has with micro-climate as well, so it is probably the most important driver to future agricultural production, productivity and therefore price.”

    Mr Verghese was on the Gold Coast this week to address the 2014 Australian Cotton Conference.

    His Singapore-based company has operations in 65 countries, and is the world’s biggest trader in cashews, and the second biggest trader in coffee and cotton.

  10. #10 Jeff Harvey
    August 11, 2014

    Olaus is so prohibitively stupid that its almost impossible to get anything through to him.

    I attended and gave a keynote lecture last week at the European Congress of Entomology in York, England. One of the major themes of the Congress was the impact of climate change on insects and agriculture. I spoke with a colleague who is based in Sydney Australia and he told me that climate change is of profound concern in that country after two searing summers in a row. The main point is that, amongst scientists in just about every field, AGW is taken as a ‘given’. When I tell fellow scientists of the trolls I encounter on blogs, they can hardly believe it – that people who think like Olaus actually exist. Sadly, they do.

  11. #11 Lionel A
    August 11, 2014

    “…doesn’t understand that the fishing boat is sinking fast.”

    Oily Prat, I am glad that you mentioned fishing boats for before long fishing fleets will have little to do but scupper themselves and then claim on any insurance, as that will be the only way to generate income.

    Here is a learning opportunity for you:

    The Unnatural History of the Sea

    Roberts continues his theme in his later:

    Ocean of Life: How our Seas are Changing.

    Mark well.

  12. #12 FrankD
    August 12, 2014

    Russell, that made me laugh (out loud, no less). For all the typo’s and grammatical fails of that nastygram (you could almost hear the incensed pounding of keys as he ranted it off), Dr Derrick is to be complimented on getting at least one thing right (if only through some missing punctuation) – WUWT is indeed, as claimed, ” the best web science blog on the internet run by Anthony Watts”.

    Coming first in a one-man race may not seem much of an achievement, but Anthony’s talents are such that he has to take what he can get. :-)

  13. #13 Wow
    August 12, 2014

    Lionel, one of the claims of the Nuclear Utopians is that Nuclear is the ONLY option for baseload and renewables untenable because nuclear is reliable and available all the time,whilst “What happens when the wind stops, eh?”.

    Yet three locations in the UK have been turned off because of a potential fault in a nuclear reactor.

    What happens now?

    But I suspect you will not concede a jot here because you merely don’t like the idea that nuclear isn’t an option with the humans we have available here for the forseeable future.

  14. #14 Lionel A
    August 12, 2014

    Lionel, one of the claims of the Nuclear Utopians is that Nuclear is the ONLY option for baseload and renewables untenable because nuclear is reliable and available all the time,whilst “What happens when the wind stops, eh?”.

    That is not my position at all, as I have explained to you previously therefore your repeating this is tiresome and has a name being a tactic used by AGW deniers.

    Therefore I do not need to concede anything.

    Besides the potential fault is in nuclear power plants rather than the reactors per se. So it would help if you got YOUR facts straight:

    EDF closes four reactors to assess boiler fault.

  15. #15 FrankD
    August 12, 2014

    Weeell…it’s a little from column A and a little from column B. The fault is with the boiler spine which supports the tubes running through the heat exchangers. Now Lionel is correct that this is not part of the reactor per se.

    But in practical terms its a bit of a difference that makes no difference – if the boiler tubes are not adequately supported by the spine, there is a risk of cracking, and a and consequent potential for boiler water to penetrate the reactor, and for contaminated gases to leak at least as far as the generator turbines. Both of those things are bad, though I suspect the former is the worse problem.

    So this particular boiler fault creates a risk of a reactor fault, meaning Wow’s characterisation of the problem as “a potential fault in the nuclear reactor” pretty much spot on for all practical purposes. If it was a fault that prevented effective generation but nothing more, it would be reasonable to call it just “a boiler fault”, but given the potential knock-on effects, using that label here would seem to be trying to avoid the real issue.

    EDF wouldn’t have a reason to minimise any concern about the situation, would they? (sarc). Fukushima wasn’t a problem with the reactor either. That worked fine. It was just the cooling systems that failed…

  16. #16 Lionel A
    August 12, 2014

    I get your drift Frank but my main bone of contention with Wow’s statement is the implication that I favour the nuclear power option over and above renewable energy sources. This is not the case.

    Further, what technological endeavour of humans is without risk or unintended consequences. Renewable technologies require materials for construction, materials often sourced from areas of the globe with unstable regimes and other issues.

  17. #17 turboblocke
    France
    August 12, 2014

    Renewable don’t require materials often sourced from areas of the globe with unstable regimes and other issues. It may be convenient to use them but they are not essential.

    BTW don’t forget that large power stations generally require a decent supply of cooling water, which is not necessarily always going to be available.

  18. #18 turboblocke
    August 12, 2014

    Bugger didn’t close the bold properly. Only “require” was supposed to be in bold.

  19. #19 Craig Thomas
    August 13, 2014

    As Nuclear power plant operators are unable to obtain insurance that covers their activities, then the decision has been made for us and we need not waste time considering the adoption of an uninsurable risk.

    One of the great benefits of the energy mix of the future is the creation of a decentralised grid of energy production where almost every citizen has the opportunity to generate and use or sell power.
    This democratisation of energy production is what is giving the multinationals the massive willies and explains their continued push for the obsolete and failed 1950s nuclear technology for boiling water.

  20. #20 Lionel A
    August 13, 2014

    Turbo WRT cooling water, indeed but there are other methods, particularly if one considers more recent nuclear power technologies.

    But then renewable technologies are not without environmental issues although the fact that the seas offshore have been trawled and dredged destroying much of any ecological system makes the impact of placing off-shore wind turbines less than it otherwise may be.

    I am not against offshore wind, or onshore wind or solar arrays. Another actor in these is that once again we see consortia with significant fiscal backing pushing for large scale installations which kinda spoils the ‘decentralised grid of energy production’ which Craig advocates. As do I for that matter.

    In a complex world one must not rule out more recent nuclear technology installations because of issues with Gen 1 types. The 1950s Magnox technologies were not all failed. I grew up in crow flying distance from both the Berkeley (pron’ Barkley and not Berkley) and Oldbury Magnox installations.

    It is the history of nuclear technology in UK that makes the handling of waste contentious and more difficult than it may otherwise have been. Also the large capital cost of newer installations became an issue with the deregulation (privatisation) of the electrical power industry in the UK.

    All these factors, waste treatment, fuel sourcing, nuclear weapons proliferation are discussed in William J Nuttall’s book along with GEN III and IV plants.

    David JC MacKay in his ‘Sustainable Energy: without the hot air’ slays some myths one of which is radiation. MacKay points out that ‘those living near coal-fired power stations are exposed to higher radiation doses than those living near nuclear power plants.’

    Ultimately it would be better to not have to use Nuclear as a part of the energy production mix

    BTW please note the function of the suspect part in these EDF installations, they are carrying cooling water by proxy through supporting the coils that do.

  21. #21 Wow
    August 13, 2014

    Lionel, no matter how much you deny and claim you’ve explained it before, I’m afraid as long as you’re trotting out the same old non-thinking rhetorical BS about the anti nuke position, I don’t feel the slightest need to change my non-thinking rhetorical BS about the Nuke Blind.

    When you begin to concern yourself with the nuances and thought behind the rational dismissal of nuclear power, then I’ll start giving a hoot.

    Fair?

  22. #22 Craig Thomas
    August 14, 2014

    “more recent nuclear power technologies”

    Vapourware. Nobody’s building any of this magic for the usual reasons that prevent nuclear from being a realistic option: cost, dishonesty, and danger.

    “MacKay points out that ‘those living near coal-fired power stations are exposed to higher radiation doses than those living near nuclear power plants.’”

    Similarly, in 1977, we could have sent all the Cambodian refugees back home with the comforting words, “Pol Pot? Don’t worry about *him*. Adolf Hitler was twice as murderous”.

  23. #23 turboblocke
    France
    August 14, 2014

    I have no objections to nukes per se, however under the present conditions they have too many issues to be a solution to climate change: lead time for construction, lack of skilled workforce for operation, cost, little prospect of being profitable (renewables are getting cheaper all the time), cooling water supplies, public distrust, liability insurance…

  24. #24 adelady
    city of wine and roses
    August 14, 2014

    Maurice Newman is at it again.

    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/aug/14/tony-abbott-adviser-warns-of-threat-of-global-cooling

    Makes me proud to be part of the clever country. Or was that the lucky country. I think we’ll be lucky to get to the next election without this crowd doing something completely and utterly devastating. Of course, there might be some miracle cure for terminal running-off-at-the-mouth in the meantime, but I think we have to sit it out.

  25. #25 Nick
    August 14, 2014

    #24 Newman presumably collects a fat fee for an hours work scraping denialist talking points out of the dim corners of the internet. The government would feel outraged if it had a clue or a science minister. Funny, that.

  26. #26 bill
    August 15, 2014

    Newman, the Oz, an adviser to Abbott – a perfect storm of The Stupid.

    This is very much the government Murdoch foisted on us. But when his empire has to create positive messages- particularly selling this gaggle of arrogant Hooray Henrys and anti-science loons – it’s just as f*cked as they are.

    All these idiots do ‘well’ is opposition: knock the people trying to get us somewhere and pander to the empty-headed narcissism of the electorate.

    And just look what happens if you’re daft enough to actually let them take over the reins… a Keystone Cops coup against the Australian way of life. Contemptible.

  27. #27 Craig Thomas
    August 15, 2014

    Maurice Newman is using David Archibald as his source.

    I think Murry Salby and Svensmark are somehow tied into it as well.

    Nothing but the best science advisors for Maurice Newman then.

    Joanne Codling has the details over at her kook-blog.

  28. #28 Wow
    August 15, 2014

    I would also like to point out that nowhere did I claim that this was a “dangerous nuclear accident”, however, that’s a common fear of Nuclear Utopians, hence is seen WHEREVER there is criticism or dismissal of nuclear power, even if it never appears.

    I merely pointed out that this power plant was unavailable, and NOT because of a planned outage, but a potential problem that wasn’t expected causing the power station to stop supplying.

    THAT WAS ALL OF IT.

    Nuclear power isn’t reliable, but never is this concorded as a problem of nuclear power generation (as it is for every power source we have).

    Why?

    Because there cannot be a discouraging word said about nuclear power.

  29. #29 Wow
    August 15, 2014

    Whilst I’m here, apropos of the problems in Iraq, here’s a query for any religious people (or those who like to see religiosity in the world):

    The christians and so on can 100% acceptable return home if they change religion to Islam.

    Since the Christian faith and Islamic faith BOTH adhere to the exact same God, where’s the problem?

    Heck, just pretend to believe. After all, how many atheists have to pretend to be religious just to be allowed to stay in their home town in, for example, the civilised USA?

    Heck, how many homosexuals have to pretend to be straight merely to avoid persecution?

    And it’s not like they are changing their god.

    So why not change?

  30. #30 Lionel A
    August 15, 2014

    Because there cannot be a discouraging word said about nuclear power.

    Strawman AFAIAC!

    Now go read Nuttall and MacKay.

    Now where is your CANDU spirit?

    Heck, how many who can see the sense in new build nuclear have to keep quiet for fear of being demonised?

    BTW You don’t frighten me Wow, mere bow wow!

    Gen IV is future but GEN III, III+ or even selected Gen II would help whilst rolling out other options. Eggs and baskets and all that.

  31. #31 Lionel A
    August 15, 2014

    ‘Hiatus’! What ‘hiatus’, and there is a reason for the quote marks any twerps watching:

    ‘Hiatus’ in rise of Earth’s surface air temperature likely temporary.

    Oh boy now this does worry me, what is just around the corner as if things aren’t already looking grim. Maybe CAGW isn’t so far out after all, but most of us realised this if the climate criminals were allowed to continue unhindered, and Newman is certainly one such.

  32. #32 Craig Thomas
    August 16, 2014

    Wow – your question about religion misses the point: these people actually believe the crap that makes them get killed/kill people. So they can’t pretend.
    Don’t forget, though, that ISIS was kick-started by a Saudi/Israeli/US plot against Assad, with tacit support from Europe, accompanied by much provision of weapons.
    As usual, the West’s engagement with the middle east is completely – and predictably – beyond total failure to the point of being a massive own goal.
    When will they learn?
    Islam *has* to go. There is no point trying to buddy up with it or manipulate it. It cannot coexist with our civilisation.

  33. #33 Marco
    August 17, 2014

    Craig, you are wrong. The paradox here is that Assad possibly willingly left ISIS alone to do what it was doing, and rather focused on mainly squashing the democratic opposition, in order to reduce support for the opposition. There was no provision of weapons to ISIS by any Western country, but only to the (more) democratic groups.

  34. #34 BBD
    August 17, 2014

    #31 Lionel – and everyone else interested in cutting edge science

    Now we know why.

  35. #35 Craig Thomas
    August 17, 2014

    Marco,
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/cia-begins-weapons-delivery-to-syrian-rebels/2013/09/11/9fcf2ed8-1b0c-11e3-a628-7e6dde8f889d_story.html

    If you seriously believe the US had any control over the ultimate recipients of these arms, you are very trusting. And then there are the arms US-ally Saudi Arabia provided.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/25/us-syria-crisis-arms-idUSBRE97O04T20130825
    These definitely went to the nutters.

  36. #36 Craig Thomas
    August 17, 2014

    Saudi almost certinaly paid for these:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/13/world/africa/arms-shipments-seen-from-sudan-to-syria-rebels.html?pagewanted=all

    “In the last 48 hours, Europeans and NATO have delivered to the Syrian rebels shipments of the long-demanded anti-air and tank missiles as well as recoilless 120 mm cannons.They landed in Turkey and Jordan and were transferred to southern Syria and Aleppo, where Syrian rebels are poised to fend off a major Syrian army offensive backed by 2,000 Hizballah troops. ”
    http://www.debka.com/article/23054/First-European-NATO-heavy-arms-for-Syrian-rebels-Russian-reprisal-expected

    etc…

    The West’s response to Assad’s troubles was short-sighted and was led not by intelligent appraisals of future scenarios, but by rigid thinking guided by a long pattern of geo-politics using Syria in an anti-Russian context.

    Yes, we won the Cold War, and no, Russia is still not reformed, however we *really* need to develop new ways of thinking to form a tight alliance with Russia & China to start a coherent fight against a menace that is well beyond anything the German Nazis threatened us with.

  37. #37 Marco
    August 18, 2014

    Yes, Craig, I am pretty sure those weapons went to the intended people. You seem not to know that ISIS came in through the East, whereas the more normal rebel groups are primarily in the West (and North). There are also nutters among them, but they are not ISIS and several have, in fact, been actively fighting ISIS also.

  38. #38 Craig Thomas
    August 18, 2014

    Delivering hardware “to Aleppo” was never a guarantee that the nutters weren’t going to get hold of it. There were plenty of them in and around Aleppo and as time has gone by, they have far outgunned any non-nutter “Syrian opposition”.

    An analysis of some available imagery is here:
    http://brown-moses.blogspot.com.au/2014/03/isis-deploys-croatian-weapons-against.html

    This was written in December 2013:
    http://tiny.cc/hyyrkx
    “Although Western countries have
    discouraged countries in the region from providing
    the rebels with advanced arms capabilities,145
    there have been no similar efforts to reign in private
    donations. It may be no coincidence that Jabhat
    al-Nusra and other more-extreme rebel elements—
    those who benefit most from private financing—
    are often described as the most effective fighters in
    Syria.
    Unfortunately, it may be too late to undo the damage
    that private financing has done to the unity
    of the Syrian opposition. Armed groups such as
    Jabhat al-Nusra are increasingly independent from
    even their private backers in areas of Syria, for example
    in Deir Ez Zour where they control several
    oil wells.146 Meanwhile, more moderate brigades—
    which lack the same financing networks—have lost
    credibility and territory on the ground.”

    And then, of course, once again, US-supplied Stingers are in the wrong hands:
    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/06/16/us-made-stinger-missiles-have-likely-fallen-into-isis-hands-officials-say/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:%20foxnews/world%20(Internal%20-%20World%20Latest%20-%20Text)

  39. #39 Jeff Harvey
    August 18, 2014

    …”to start a coherent fight against a menace that is well beyond anything the German Nazis threatened us with”

    Oh, Craig, I suppose you are referring to unlimited and unregulated corporate power, nakedly predatory capitalism under the guise of the ‘Washington Consensus’. Forget extreme Islamists, there is no greater threat to the future of humanity than this rapacious lot.

    I am quite surprised that you equate this with Nazi Germany; what you should do now is examine the killing ratio of those killed by ‘us’ in the west in the Middle East and those of ‘us’ killed by ‘them’. My guess is that at present its about 10,000-100,000:1 in favor of us killing them. Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, all reveal carnage and slaughter instigated by the west in order to control (or attempt to control) a region rich in resources and, as pointed out by the likes of the US State Department (1950), and Brezinski more recently, vital to the global economy.

    Your argument presupposes that we in the west are a civilized bunch who want nothing more than to spread democracy and freedom to the region. Of course, that is utter bullshit, as there are clearly economic and political reasons why they hate us as they do. Your words hark back to those of vile criminals like Bush, Blair and Co. that they hate us for ‘our freedom’. Utter nonsense.

  40. #40 BBD
    August 18, 2014

    So a warming Atlantic triggered the unprecedented recent Trade Winds acceleration and so the “hiatus” and the mixing of heat into deep Pacific water observed by ARGO. What great mysteries are being revealed.

    See McGregor et al. (2014) Recent Walker circulation strengthening and Pacific cooling amplified by Atlantic warming.

    An unprecedented strengthening of Pacific trade winds since the late 1990s has caused widespread climate perturbations, including rapid sea-level rise in the western tropical Pacific, strengthening of Indo-Pacific ocean currents, and an increased uptake of heat in the equatorial Pacific thermocline. The corresponding intensification of the atmospheric Walker circulation is also associated with sea surface cooling in the eastern Pacific, which has been identified as one of the contributors to the current pause in global surface warming. In spite of recent progress in determining the climatic impacts of the Pacific trade wind acceleration, the cause of this pronounced trend in atmospheric circulation remains unknown. Here we analyse a series of climate model experiments along with observational data to show that the recent warming trend in Atlantic sea surface temperature and the corresponding trans-basin displacements of the main atmospheric pressure centres were key drivers of the observed Walker circulation intensification, eastern Pacific cooling, North American rainfall trends and western Pacific sea-level rise. Our study suggests that global surface warming has been partly offset by the Pacific climate response to enhanced Atlantic warming since the early 1990s.

    This is important, people. NB.

  41. #41 Marco
    August 18, 2014

    Craig, you may want to check again what you wrote. That some of these arms end up in the hands of the wrong people is not the same as actively supporting them.

  42. #42 BBD
    August 18, 2014

    Come on chaps. It’s a war zone. Some shipments of small arms (and more besides) are always going to end up being appropriated by people other than the intended recipients.

  43. #43 Jeff Harvey
    August 18, 2014

    Marco, you ought to read British historian Mark Curtiis’s last book. In it he provides clear evidence that the UK and US governments have long supported extremist Islamic movements if they have seen it in their political and economic interests to do so. There’s nothing remotely honorable when you are promoting policies in support of out right expansion, subjugation of other countries assets and nullification of alternative (more humane) models. The US and UK have long done this.

  44. #44 BBD
    August 18, 2014

    Jeff

    To be clear I do not for an instant dispute what you say (or Curtis writes). All I caution is that the provenance of military kit can be deceptive. Fortunes of war, and all that.

    I’ll go back to physical climatology now.

    :-)

  45. #45 Lionel A
    August 18, 2014

    Jeff, would that Curtis book be ‘Secret Affairs’?

    Curtis writes well, I still have a copy of his ‘Web of Deceit’ here somewhere, probably close to the Pilger books wherein one can learn about Australia’s role in Indonesia.

    I have pointed out that my reading tastes are eclectic – developed during university courses, if only I could remember the details and key quotes without re-visiting the texts. My short term memory isn’t what it was, legacy of oxygen brain starvation during cardiacs – and age of course. But I still retain an ability to remember faces and put names to them – probably developed by being in an environment where there was a rapid turnover in work colleagues and having to learn many new names and faces fast from teaching.

  46. #46 Craig Thomas
    August 19, 2014

    Jeff – two different issues.
    We can try to deal with your issue via established political processes. Some countries have done so quite well. Other countries are making progress. Even the USA is probably making progress. We might be feeling a bit pessimistic here in Australia at the moment due to the regressive nature of our current political climate.

    Either way, Islam is very widespread, and as demonstrated in Egypt & Tunisia, standard civilised processes are no match for it.

  47. #47 Jeff Harvey
    August 19, 2014

    Craig, I don’t think Egypt is a good example at all. The country had been long governed by a US puppet regime which was more than happy to ensure that democracy was prevented. Moreover, many of the problems stemming from ‘extreme Islam’ have little or nothing to do with religion and everything to do with politics and economics. The fact is that a sizable majority of Muslims live in areas that the west covets on the basis that they contain a huge wealth in resources – especially oil and natural gas. The US State Department in 1950 called the region, “The greatest material prize in history and a source of stupendous strategic power”. This well explains UK and US (more recently Russian and Chinese) behavior in the region. And it also is a good foundation for the enmity that many of the inhabitants of the region hold for people in the west. I am an atheist, but I think its a bit rich to be told what a threat extreme Islam is to the world on the basis of the carnage inflicted by the west on people living in the region in order to control the vast wealth of resources there, as well as the record of Christianity in this regard more widely.

    The two issues are therefore not separate at all. The greatest threats to humanity right now are environmental, and many of these stem from the actions of the world’s sole superpower and the corporations that run it. I tend to agree with many of your arguments re: climate but when you veer into this area think you digress badly. Since when has the west used ‘standard civilized processes’ in pursuit of brazenly political agendas? Read the recent history of Latin America and you’ll see that the term civilized is absent with respect to USp power and attempt to control the region.

  48. #48 cRR Kampen
    August 19, 2014

    “Islam *has* to go. There is no point trying to buddy up with it or manipulate it. It cannot coexist with our civilisation.”

    In the 19thirties this was slightly different. Jews had to go, ‘they could not coexist with our civilisation’.
    Same crap over and over again.

    History of Dutch tolerance is history of Ottoman muslim tolerance, http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liever_Turks_dan_paaps . I know, this fact is taboo nowadays, but: tomorrow the Maoris. Or did we already genocide them away?

  49. #49 cRR Kampen
    August 19, 2014

    “… as demonstrated in Egypt & Tunisia, standard civilised processes are no match for it.” – that would mean slaughtering muslims by the thousands after couping a chosen president who, for a fucking change after e.g. Mubarak, did NOT kill any protesters. Fuck your ‘standard civilised cluster bombing processes’.

  50. #50 Nick
    August 20, 2014

    #40, very interesting, thanks.

  51. #51 bill
    August 20, 2014

    Loath as I am to interrupt the flow of overwrought ‘Clash of Civilizations’ rhetoric – personally I think we are simply compelled to eliminate the Justin Beiber fans and/or kids who refuse to remove themselves from decent citizens lawns – but back in the real world, and on our agreed topic of interest, this is rather entertaining.

  52. #52 Craig Thomas
    August 20, 2014

    Kampen, The Jews do not go around converting people by threats of death (they have an exclusive religion), and what’s more they seem to possess a vibrant and creative culture that helps drive civilisational progress. Science in particular has advanced through Jewish participation far in excess of their proportion of, or positions in Western society.
    Islam has had over 1,000 years to demonstrate its worth, and oh boy, the results are in.

    Whatever we think of Western interference in the middle east, their user of cluster munitions and DU rounds, none of it even begins to compare with a politico-religious movement that thinks it appropriate to round up a village-full of Yazidi women and children, push them into pits and bury them alive.
    (This is of course peanuts compared to the similar efforts used on 1,5million Armenians who were systematically exterminated in 1915 by the same politico-religious movement. Think the Rwanda massacre and almost double it. Then, up this by a factor of 10 and you will start to scratch the surface of the scale of what the Indian populations suffered at the hands of Islam until the British interfered)

    I am staggered Jeff thinks we could even make the comparison.

    Sorry to wander off-topic, but a religion that wants us all back in the dark ages is very much as much a threat to my environment as capitalism is.

  53. #53 cRR Kampen
    August 20, 2014

    Yeah right, Craig, what kind of Überjudetheorie are you expounding?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_Jewish_culture_in_Spain

    You do understand why Jews habitually entered the liberal professions (arts, sciences, entrepreneurship and banking)?

    You are, like so many, very careful in not asking the first question that should come to mind when you look at groups like ISIS. The question is: how the fuck do they come to exist? Related questions: why do they originate in certain regions and not others? Why are comparable radical groups perchance not merely islamic, but christian (Central African regions), or outspokenly atheist (Khmer Rouge) or, well, of whatever ideology or religion happens to be their requisite?

    Do you think it is appropriate to kill kids playing soccer on damned beach in Gaza by means of repeated drone strikes? Do you really think it is appropriate to clusterbomb targets be they in Vietnam or Afghanistan from some sort of brave up close personal height of 12 km? Or do you only think these actions are appropriate for the simple reason you never see their results in our ‘free’ western media?

    http://pl.indymedia.org/images/2012/11/56238.jpg
    Pic fucking related, children burning in Gaza during Cast Lead: phosfor bombing by your civilised fucking military theocracy.

    “but a religion that wants us all back in the dark ages” – we (and Assad) bombed them into the dark ages first. You should cheer for the succes of this.

  54. #54 cRR Kampen
    August 20, 2014

    “Islam has had over 1,000 years to demonstrate its worth, and oh boy, the results are in.”

    Only a racist could sabotage history like that.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age#Science

    Guess what made the Renaissance into being. Like the return of classic literature by the Arabs, who kept those works, instead of burning them away like the christians of Europe did. You probably still calculate using roman numerals, don’t you.

  55. #55 Wow
    August 20, 2014

    Well, the main reasons why Jews were into banking is that Christian and Muslim faith made usury a sin, therefore nobody would lend out money, and the toffs couldn’t afford the lavish outlays on the weekly taxes, so had to borrow from SOMEONE.

    Of course, the ruination of the souls of Jews was already settled: they were *Jews*, Duh!, so it was fine for them to take money and move it around.

    Of course, nothing pissess off a toff more than owing favours to a non-toff, hence the continuation and inflamation of jews as “Christ killers”, eliding that if JC didn’t die, he couldn’t forgive our sins for us (according to their myth).

    Hey ho.

    People are dumb.

  56. #56 Wow
    August 20, 2014

    #39: Yes, but you only “tell” what you believe you want to see there, Lionel.

    PS What on earth makes you think I care whether you’re afraid of me or not? IT’S THE FREAKING INTERNET YOU BUFOON!!!

    But I guess you have to continue to find something to remove any validity from anyone against nuclear, and since you can’t play the ball, you have to make out that it’s a character defect leading to any argument against you being invalid.

    This IS ad hominem, dearie.

  57. #57 Wow
    August 20, 2014

    “Wow – your question about religion misses the point: these people actually believe the crap that makes them get killed/kill people. So they can’t pretend.”

    You miss the important point here, Craig: THEY ARE THE SAME FAITH IN GOD.

    They all agree that it is the same god, the ONLY difference is the articles of faith: NOT THE GOD.

    It appears that the believers believe in the articles of faith more than the god for which they are supposed to be about.

    I.e. their rate of importance here appears to be

    Articles of Faith
    Life
    Home
    God.

    God comes last.

    Hence my query was somewhat rhetorical.

    Maybe someone else later on the thread saw that they all believe in the same god, so therefore it’s no more change than from RCC to CofE.

  58. #58 cRR Kampen
    August 20, 2014

    “the main reasons why Jews were into banking ” – adresses only one of my examples of the kind of professions Jews often came into (though not incorrectly).

    What I meant was that Jews having been through cycles of persecution and tolerance for many centuries, never as a group becoming fully integrated in the countries they live in, is the cause.
    There are comparable ethnic groups where you can see the same phenomenon. As they come to a measure of wealth and power many a government has sought to eradicate such minorities and take the spoils. So with the Reconquista in Spain (genocides on muslims and Jews), so with the Armenians in Turkey, so with a number of Chinese minorities in parts of Asia and Africa.

  59. #59 cRR Kampen
    August 20, 2014

    #57 – right.

    Sometimes it looks as if the closer the religions are related the bloodier the (brother-)fight.

  60. #60 Lionel A
    August 20, 2014

    This IS ad hominem, dearie.

    Not at all, I was making an observation on your style of argument which is combative and intimidatory. That is obvious to anybody who reads you.

    As for my not playing the ball, WTF do you think my mention of stuff backed up by citing Nuttall and MacKay is all about?

    You are way off base on this too as you are with inventing a position for me as having to ‘find something to remove any validity from anyone against nuclear.’.

    That is pure invention, as I wrote it is a strawman.

  61. #61 Lionel A
    August 20, 2014

    Now WRT Israel v Palestine here is an across the religious divides plea which should be taken seriously:

    My plea to the people of Israel: Liberate yourselves by liberating Palestine, Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu.

    There are a number of primers on this topic now here is one of which I have the 2003 edition:

    ‘The Palestine-Israeli Conflict: A Beginner’s Guide’ by Dan Cohn-Sherbok & Dawoud Sudqi El Alami

    Now if you believe the stories of the Bible then the fate of Jericho is informative although the Joshua and trumpets parts are no longer credible with archaeological researchers.

  62. #62 BBD
    August 20, 2014

    Wow

    Lionel A has a point:

    Not at all, I was making an observation on your style of argument which is combative and intimidatory. That is obvious to anybody who reads you.

    You can be dry, astute and funny too, so all is not lost.

  63. #63 bill
    August 20, 2014

    I’m curious about what percentage of our 200 million Islamic northern neighbours constitute ‘a menace that is well beyond anything the German Nazis threatened us with’ and that ‘standard civilised processes are no match for’?

    So, of course, they ‘have to go’.

    Should we simply force them to see the error of their ways at gunpoint à la Ann Coulter and Christopher Hitchens (now, there’s an unholy alliance!), do you suppose?

    But perhaps they simply ‘cannot coexist with our civilisation’ to such an extent that we need to make our solutions a little more, um, complete? Because they’re ‘like Hitler’, don’tcha know?

    Or perhaps this historically precedented drift in rhetoric is all just a tad hyperbolic, and it’s really the nutters in Isis that have to go?

    Well, um, yes, but, you know, the funny thing is that the aforementioned Chris Hitchens – tag-teamed with his mate Wolfy – barracked for the (un)holy war in Iraq precisely in order to show them backward Islams what’s-what once and for all. Do you reckon that turned out well? Might it even have sort-of led to, oooh, I don’t know, maybe the rise of militant nutcases like Isis?

    And certainly more of the same is bound to turn out really well, ain’t it?

    Dealing roughly with nutters is one thing. Declaring a crusade against nearly a quarter of the global population, on the other hand, is so insane it’s ‘not even wrong’.

    What’s the saying? Never declare war on a noun?

  64. #64 Mack
    August 21, 2014

    Here’s a bit of of Hot Whopping for you to read Tim, It might be a bit more refreshing than the blathering of the idiots here…
    http://blog.hotwhopper.com/2014/08/sack-australias-biggest-laughing-stock.html?showComment=1408182051991#c8686407071562919858
    I don’t know why you don’t just shut these clowns down.
    Tamino has done it by just removing the ability to post…but maybe you’ve got a contract with National Geographic or something. In which case …my sympathies.

  65. #65 FrankD
    August 21, 2014

    Wow, Mack actually linked to that discussion himself? It’s like he’s proud of being that stupid.

    But then, I never did think he came here for the hunting…

  66. #66 Lionel A
    August 21, 2014

    But then, I never did think he came here for the hunting…

    Mack is more here for the shunting, shunting denier memes around the fiddle yard, which ones going to be pushed out next?

  67. #67 Lionel A
    August 21, 2014

    The ideological and humanitarian sensibilities touched upon earlier maybe the following words found in ‘Razor’s Edge: The Unofficial History of the Falklands War” by Hugh Bicheno where he is considering the right of the Falkland Islanders to continue living in the manner they wish, can offer a saner rationale:

    In trying to correct the deficiency and relate to the deep background to the conduct of the war, my eyes were fully opened to how dangerously misleading the old ideological labels have become. The true dividing line is between those prepared to work with humanity as it is, in all its chaotic and exasperating diversity, and those possessed of intrinsically genocidal conceit that there should be – and that they can create – a ‘New Man”.

    If only.

  68. #68 Lionel A
    August 21, 2014

    The above quote was found on page 344 of the 2006 hardback edition. This is an excellent book with the best set of clearly labelled maps I have seen on what was otherwise known as ‘Operation Corporate’. What’s in a name? Who thought that suitable?

    BTW Check out the role of the arrogant and detached Nicholas Ridley in precipitating that madness.

  69. #69 Ian Forrester
    August 21, 2014

    Lionel said:

    BTW Check out the role of the arrogant and detached Nicholas Ridley in precipitating that madness.

    This just confirms the old saying “the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree” since Nicholas Ridley is the uncle of Matt Ridley.

  70. #70 Jeff Harvey
    August 22, 2014

    Craig, John Pilger summed it up when he said, “Terrorism, barbarism and mass murder are standard practices on our side; only the technology is different”. Or, as Ward Churchill said, “US history has been characterized by 200 plus years of carnage, slaughter, and democracy deterred”.

    I concur. You appear to think we are somehow civilized compared to the barbarian Islamists – when indeed, the historical record suggests otherwise, We profess civility when indeed we are killing in industrial numbers for profit and power.

  71. #71 turboblocke
    France
    August 22, 2014

    Mack: just in case you are uninformed rather than trolling… You have to differentiate between insolation on a plane perpendicular to the sun and insolation on the curved surface of the Earth. At the tropics the incoming radiation per square metre is spread out over about one square metre of the Earth at noon. At other times and latitudes, because the Earth is a sphere, this radiation is spread out over a larger area. Think of the polar regions, the incoming radiation is almost parallel to the Earth’s surface so is spread out over a very large area until at some point it becomes zero. Hence why average insolation is so much lower than maximum.

  72. #72 Lotharsson
    August 22, 2014

    Ah, that was a epically glorious flat earth moment (as Marco put it) from Mack over at Hot Whopper, with his very basic error explained here by turboblocke.

    And Mack proudly linked to his ever so strident assertion of flatness which he asserted (along with the earth not being a perfect black body) undermines pretty much the whole AGW theory thing, implying that not a single damn climate scientist out of tens and tens of thousands of them has ever figured out this fatal flaw in their work.

    You couldn’t make this up – and truly, he’s not here for the hunting!

  73. #73 Wow
    August 22, 2014

    “never as a group becoming fully integrated in the countries they live in, is the cause.”

    Oh, aye, their refusal (on purely religious grounds) to integrate (to the extent that marriages outside the faith were forbidden: the RCC let that happen as long as the children are brought up as catholics) ensured that the jews could always be counted on as a safe “other” to create a causus belli when you need a scapegoat or distraction.

  74. #74 Wow
    August 22, 2014

    “Lionel A has a point:

    Not at all, I was making an observation on your style of argument which is combative and intimidatory. That is obvious to anybody who reads you.”

    He’d have a point if he’d claimed I was from the UK, too, but it too has nothing to do with nuclear power stations or power generation reliability.

    “You can be dry, astute and funny too, so all is not lost.”

    Thanks, though I usually ignore compliments like this, since in my opinion, it’s expected that, even without being right, opinions expressed on discussion boards should be at least in some way thought provoking (otherwise it is just a shouting match without the high sound pressure volume).

    My point wrt Lionel is that if those pimping out for nuclear power don’t themselves point out problems in their preferred solution leave it up to those against it to pound on these forgotten facts, hence his rage against “anti nuke luddites” are a product of his own (and others) partisan ignorance of the problems of the situation they wish to promote.

    It’s a very similar problem to GMOs and the like: those liking the idea refuse to say themselves the problems or fears, promoting only Good Fact on the procedure, leaving these for others to say, hence making these appear, to the lights of the promotionalists, luddites.

    Lionel leapt to a conclusion of what wasn’t said and attacked that (“THERE WAS NO NUCLEAR DISASTER!!” Well duh, never said it was, only that it wasn’t generating).

    Then because of his mental image of what was “probably said”, arrogantly saying “I see nothing to confess to here” comes across as complete asshatery.

    Then doubling down on the prickishness with “I’m not afraid of you! HERE’S AN INSULT! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!”.

    Any wonder why I beat the stupid little twit with a cluebat with apparent glee?

  75. #75 Wow
    August 22, 2014

    How much difference is there between ISIS and the bible thumpers gleefully going on about how when they get to power in the USA (which was always a christian country, right?) they will shoot dead abortion doctors, atheists, liberals, gays and so on?

    Only difference I see is that ISIS are doing it with the power of the state officially behind them.

    To me, that’s not a big enough difference.

  76. #76 Lionel A
    August 22, 2014

    Wow,

    My point wrt Lionel is that if those pimping out for nuclear power don’t themselves point out problems in their preferred solution leave it up to those against it to pound on these forgotten facts, …

    So my having pointed to an article where problems where a few reactors of disparate type failed means nothing. Also if you had bothered to consult Nuttall and MacKay you would realise that other issues are not ignored. Go read some words Wow, don’t expect me to lay it out on a plate for you – it is a complex and nuanced issue.

  77. #77 Lionel A
    August 22, 2014

    Uh! Oh! RedNoise/Duffer alert for when he reads this badly headlined and put together article which all but ignores the fact that a hiatus in surface temperatures is not the total picture:

    Global warming slowdown ‘could last another decade’.

    Message for McGrath, who seems to have turned his hand to comedy like his namesake: There is not a slowdown in global warming, only in some surface temperatures but even then temperature records continue to be broken and the cryosphere depletes.

  78. #78 Lionel A
    August 22, 2014

    Curious about the ‘Related Stories’ (which looked very selective to me) at side links in the above from the BBC I followed one:

    ‘Growth drives UK flooding problems’ where our old ‘friend’ Roger Harrabin quotes an author of a report, which Harrabin fails to link to or even name BTW:

    “We have categorically not ruled out a link between climate change and flooding,” he told BBC News. “We just can’t demonstrate that there is a link.

    Well try picking up from here Roger:

    Jet Stream Changes Driving Extreme Weather Linked Again To Global Warming, Arctic Ice Loss.

    Another post anticipating the Duff effect.

    Hum! Having issues connecting with Deltoid ATM, Stoat too so it must be scienceblogs.

  79. #79 cRR Kampen
    August 22, 2014

    #60, I’m should plead guilty to your first charge at Wow, see what I attempted with Craig (no regrets).

  80. #80 adelady
    city of wine and roses
    August 22, 2014

    What I meant was that Jews having been through cycles of persecution and tolerance for many centuries, never as a group becoming fully integrated in the countries they live in, is the cause.

    I think it might run deeper than that. Get hold of a copy of Black Rednecks and White Liberals by Thomas Sowell if you can. (Yes, I know. As a political and economic commentator he’s absolutely dire. As a social historian? He’s pretty good, at least on the particular topics of these essays.)

    There’s one essay on how people who function as “middlemen” are reviled in every circumstance you can imagine – even in POW camps, the blokes who organised trading tins of jam for packets of smokes for writing materials were looked down on by the people who benefited from their skills. The outstanding example he points to is the Indians in Uganda. Amin exploited everyone pointing the finger at them as exploiters and profiteers in much the same way as Europeans used to point at Jews. He expelled them all from Uganda and the whole country more or less ground to a halt without all those traders, importers, exporters and financiers. You can see similar processes with the Chinese in Malaysia and other countries, Koreans in US cities, and several other examples. Sowell’s view is that the role of middleman is essential to economic activity but that the people who occupy that role are almost always disliked by larger populations.

    The book’s an easy read. Even if you disagree with some of his startling-at-first-glance pictures of various cultures, he provides good food for thought to clarify your own reasons why you think he’s off base.

  81. #81 Wow
    August 22, 2014

    Yeahm right, such “pointings out of the problems” like this, yes?

    However any nuclear renaissance has been declared dead by IMHO out-of-touch critics, especially since ‘Fukushima’.

    Hrm….

  82. #82 Craig Thomas
    August 23, 2014

    And here is exactly why GM crops are evil:

    “The USDA’s Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service (APHIS) says that expected planting of new 2,4D-resistant seeds could prompt a nearly 300 to 700 percent increase in use of 2,4D by 2020. This is not a hyperbolic projection. According to the USDA, Between 1997 and 2014, the acreage planted in glyphosate-resistant soybeans rose from about 10 to 94 percent; glyphosate-resistant corn from about 10 to 89 percent; and cotton from about 10 to 91 percent of all such crops planted in the US. At the same time, glyphosate use climbed at a similarly steep rate.”

    http://scienceblogs.com/thepumphandle/2014/08/20/new-herbicide-and-ge-seeds-epa-and-usda-poised-to-approve-herbicide-with-insufficiently-unexamined-cumulative-and-long-term-health-effects/?utm_source=widgets

  83. #83 Craig Thomas
    August 23, 2014

    “cRR Kampen

    August 20, 2014
    “Islam has had over 1,000 years to demonstrate its worth, and oh boy, the results are in.”

    Only a racist could sabotage history like that.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age#Science

    Roman numerals were superseded by Hindu maths. We got it via various cultures that used to exist between us and the Hindus – all cultures systematically obliterated by Islam.

    This idea that Islam was somehow associated with any progress is revisionism of the first order – any progress that occurred in a country that had been colonised by Islam occurred *despite* the evil theology, not because of it. Islam is a political philosophy that is implacably destructive. It can’t be anything else, if you examine the life of its inspiration.

    Human progress is massively concentrated in time and place: Europe after 1400. Islam had no hand in this.

  84. #84 Lionel A
    August 23, 2014

    Wow wrt #81

    What part of Fukushima being a special case because of the location in a seismically sensitive area and of a 1960s design and thus unlikely to be a prototype for any nuclear renaissance do you not understand?

    Heck steam locomotives suffered, a few, catastrophic boiler failures over early decades but as technology and materials knowledge improved, along with tighter operational safety regulation particularly WRT safety valve design – anti-tamper – the such incidents became rare.

    But then yes steam traction ran on dirty coal but that is another issue.

    As I wrote read some words, Nuttall will help.

  85. #85 Rednose
    August 23, 2014

    #77 Lenoil

    Wash your mouth out with soap and water for even mentioning the hiatus and the 38th or so excuse to try and explain it.

    Bye the way
    How is the arctic death spiral doing this year?

  86. #86 Lionel A
    August 23, 2014

    Rednoise, #85

    As expected, did you not understand my pre-emptive points?
    Shame on you.

  87. #87 Lionel A
    August 23, 2014

    Craig you may be interested in this attempted rise of Islam and Sharia Law:

    Sharia law in bid to conquer London.

    Now where is there an otherwise unoccupied island where these dangerous fanatics can be quarantined – without outside communication?

    Rednoise and Duff could police it.

  88. #88 Rednose
    August 23, 2014

    #86 lenoil

    Peculiar how those 38 or so explanations for the “Hiatus” (the 18 year plateau in surface temperature, now predicted to last at least another 10 years) were not made pre-emptively

  89. #89 Lionel A
    August 23, 2014

    Rednoise,

    my post pre-empted any remarks about the non-hiatus you may make, that was the intent of my ‘pre-empt’ allusion not to any explanations.

    What are these 38 (or so) explanations?

  90. #90 BBD
    August 23, 2014

    Rednoise

    Peculiar how those 38 or so explanations for the “Hiatus” (the 18 year plateau in surface temperature, now predicted to last at least another 10 years) were not made pre-emptively

    They were. The problem is, you know nothing.
    From the “Charney Report” aka Carbon Dioxide and Climate waaaay back in 1979 we find this on the climatological effect of the rate of ocean heat uptake:

    One of the major uncertainties has to do with the transfer of the increased heat into the oceans. It is well known that the oceans are a thermal regulator, warming the air in winter and cooling it in summer. The standard assumption has been that, while heat is transferred rapidly into a relatively thin, well-mixed surface layer of the ocean (averaging about 70 m in depth), the transfer into the deeper waters is so slow that the atmospheric temperature reaches effective equilibrium with the mixed layer in a decade or so. It seems to us quite possible that the capacity of the deeper oceans to absorb heat has been seriously underestimated, especially that of the intermediate waters of the subtropical gyres lying below the mixed layer and above the main thermocline. If this is so, warming will proceed at a slower rate until these intermediate waters are brought to a temperature at which they can no longer absorb heat.

    Our estimates of the rates of vertical exchange of mass between the mixed and intermediate layers and the volumes of water involved give a delay of the order of decades in the time at which thermal equilibrium will be reached. This delay implies that the actual warming at any given time will be appreciably less than that calculated on the assumption that thermal equilibrium is reached quickly. One consequence may be that perceptible temperature changes may not become apparent nearly so soon as has been anticipated. We may not be given a warning until the CO2 loading is such that an appreciable climate change is inevitable. The equilibrium warming will eventually occur; it will merely have been postponed.

    Although this will probably go over the head of a flat-earther such as yourself.

    * * *

    the 18 year plateau in surface temperature

    And stop lying. We’ve been through this dozens of times. Here are the data. There is no plateau lasting 18 years:

    HadCRUT4, GISTEMP, UAH TLT 1996 – present; annual means; trend

    Click the link. Look at the graph.

  91. #91 BBD
    August 23, 2014

    Lionel

    I doubt Rednoise really understands that the various factors that caused a slowdown in the rate of surface warming aren’t mutually exclusive. So when he sees mention of SC24 *and* aerosols *and* enhanced ocean heat uptake driven by increased zonal windspeeds *and* the predominance of La Nina over the last decade, he thinks there’s a plethora of contradictory hypotheses in play. This is because he is absolutely clueless about physical climatology (as we know all too well), which enables his denialism. If he actually understood the basics (eg. the Earth is not flat) then he wouldn’t be capable of maintaining a denialist stance.

    For some, ignorance is bliss. For the rest of us, it’s just ignorance.

  92. #92 Wow
    August 23, 2014

    What part of Fukushima being a special case because of the location in a seismically sensitive area and of a 1960s design and thus unlikely to be a prototype for any nuclear renaissance do you not understand?

    None of it: it’s nothing I ever mentioned, dearie, hence I have absolutely nothing to attempt to understand it.

    Your statement is like me asking rhetorically:

    What is it about profit being the difference between revenue and costs do you not understand?

    What is it about the UK NOT BEING JAPAN do you not understand, pumpkin?

  93. #93 BBD
    August 23, 2014

    Wow

    Some people believe that nuclear can play a part – geopolitically limited – in the evolution of decarbonisation of the electricity supply. Let’s ignore the unpleasant smell left by right-wing anti-renewables nuke-boosters and consider only the holists acting in good faith.

    From that position, all low carbon generation technologies have to stay on the table. It’s easy to spot the bad actors because they try and push renewables off the table. White hats keep their options open.

  94. #94 Lionel A
    August 24, 2014

    Wow:

    What is it about the UK NOT BEING JAPAN do you not understand, pumpkin?

    Wow! Just wow, and what an apt moniker. That was one of the points I was making and also in the words you quoted back at me.

    And what BBD says about holists acting in good faith, whenever did you see anything from me decrying renewables?

  95. #95 Wow
    August 24, 2014

    “Some people believe that nuclear can play a part ”

    Indeed it can.

    However, we can’t run it in a way that can play a sensible part with the political and social structures we currently have. As you admit to inherently with your:

    geopolitically limited

    proviso. The only problem being that you think that there’s any geopolitical area that can be safely allowed to use our nuclear technology.

    There isn’t.

    However, there are designs much safer but unprofitable. R&D into nuclear technology will uncover either design changes economically acceptable or new designs safe and cheap.

    So I’m,100% behind R&D into nuclear power technology.

    However, nuclear is just far too expensive, far too slow to roll out, far too limited in its allowed application (ISIS getting to run their electricity grid on nuclear? No? Then we can’t use it as a solution) and just plain dangerous when those making decisions absolve themselves of all consequences.

    And it’s FAR cheaper to roll out renewables to cover what we need to have now.

    When we’ve sorted out our power needs with carbon neutral renewables, we will have time to roll out nuclear. Doing a nuke rollout takes money that would be more productive and therefore more effective in reducing our carbon footprint spent on wind/solar/etc. And without a 10-30 year lag for positive generation either.

    Nuke power is rather like ordering the paint and wallpaper for your new house when you’ve just noticed that your current house is current;y on fire.

    It’s a *little* bit early at the moment!

  96. #96 Wow
    August 24, 2014
    What is it about the UK NOT BEING JAPAN do you not understand, pumpkin?

    Wow! Just wow,

    So you can’t tell me what it is you don’t understand about it, ducky?

    Figures.

    Here’s a clue that has ALSO eternally evaded you, dearie:

    EVERY accident with nuclear has been “completely different” from any other.

    This has never stopped any accident before, has it.

    So why is it in ANY FORM WHATSOEVER relevant that Fukushima is different from the UK plants?

    HINT: It isn’t.

    Ergo: irrelevant.

    When I talked about UK plants, YOU BROUGHT UP JAPAN.

    Then when I say that the UK is not Japan, you go “EXACTLY!”

    EXACTLY WHAT?!?!?!

  97. #97 Lionel A
    August 24, 2014

    If you had read Nuttall you would realise that it need not take 10-30 years to role out new nuclear. You would also appreciate that modularity is possible and a policy of rolling out a number based upon similar designs, as is mooted and possible, rapidly builds a pool of expertise. This on top of the expertise that is still around,

    You go on about nuclear being

    …just far too expensive, far too slow to roll out, far too limited in its allowed application (ISIS getting to run their electricity grid on nuclear? No? Then we can’t use it as a solution) and just plain dangerous when those making decisions absolve themselves of all consequences.

    Other than the opening statements are demonstrably untrue you then write this:

    So I’m,100% behind R&D into nuclear power technology.

    Why bother with backing R&D if you don’t want to use the end result? Your logic escapes me.

    I am getting close to done arguing with ‘The Red Queen’!

    Oh! And BTW if, as we could have had, an extensive and reliable source of electrical power avoiding much of the need to import oil from the ME then ISIS may not have evolved.

  98. #98 turboblocke
    France
    August 24, 2014

    In my opinion nuclear is a no- go for solving climate change. Nothing in principle against it but the leadtime is too long. Not only construction, but also planning permission.

    We’re already seeing conventional plant being mothballed soon after it’s been commissioned. Who’s going to invest in nukes when renewables are steadily dropping in price?

  99. #99 BBD
    August 24, 2014

    turboblocke

    In my opinion nuclear is a no- go for solving climate change. Nothing in principle against it but the leadtime is too long. Not only construction, but also planning permission.

    It will be interesting to see how this plays out. If the build-out of renewable generation infrastructure is rapid enough to keep pace with demand and the ongoing decommissioning of existing FF and nuclear plant, then you may be proved correct.

    If it is not, then perhaps we will see rapid expansion of nuclear within the energy mix of developed nations, spurred by the increasing severity of CC impacts over the coming decades and the imperatives of supply and demand.

  100. #100 Wow
    August 24, 2014

    If you had read Nuttall you would realise that it need not take 10-30 years to role out new nuclear.

    So far nobody’s managed to get it under the time budget so far. So either that’s wrong or you two think that the engineers are a load of incompetent boobs.

    You would also appreciate that modularity is possible and a policy of rolling out a number based upon similar designs

    Nothing about the running of the designs in your ramblings here, is there.

    Because, as you’ve never bothered to realise, the immutable problem is that the problem isn’t the design but the society that doesn’t give a shit about safety if it doesn’t make profits.

    And hence every nuclear disaster, every single one touted by every Utopian as “Completely impossible to happen with the newer designs!”.

    The designs NOW being touted as safe and effective either have proven to be far more expensive, far less safe, or completely not ready for rolling out even as a testbed.

    Ask the Scandanavians.

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