December 2015 Open Thread

Comments

  1. #1 Stu 2
    January 16, 2016

    Turboblocke @#96
    🙂
    I don’t think WOW realises that the southern hemisphere seasons are opposite to his but the calendar year is not?

  2. #2 Lionel A
    January 17, 2016

    I don’t think…

    Well that is your problem right there.

  3. #3 Wow
    January 17, 2016

    “WOW I note you objected to Stu2 writing In my part of the world and according to BoM we had our wettest winter on record in 2015.””

    And what was my objection? How did I word it?

  4. #4 Wow
    January 17, 2016

    “I don’t think WOW realises that the southern hemisphere seasons are opposite to his ”

    Really?

    Was this “to the best of your ability” because I said here:

    http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2015/12/04/december-2015-open-thread/comment-page-1/#comment-342025

    Australia? That would be your SUMMER, you haven’t had your WINTER yet. Dumbass.

    So you don’t know that Australia is known to be in the southern hemisphere and that when we have our winter you have your summer, but then project that onto me.

    Like a complete dumbass.

  5. #5 Wow
    January 17, 2016

    Turbo, JP also had a problem with Stupid’s claim. See #63 on Page1.
    YOU also had a problem with Stupid’s claim. See #68 on Page 1. And again at #73, same page.
    Chris O’Neil post 74, page 1 again, had a problem with stupid’s claim.
    Hell, post #76 on page 1 shows even STUPID had problems with stupid’s claim. As pointed out by JP on #77 and #88.

  6. #6 Chris O'Neill
    January 17, 2016

    According to the Great Stupid Wanker, “Climate Alarmism’s getting a bit of a pasting at the moment”.

    That’s a rather ironic claim coming after the year in which the “pause” died.

  7. #7 Wow
    January 17, 2016

    You didn’t expect reality to play a part in gitter’s tirade,did you Chris??

    😛

  8. #8 Lionel A
    January 17, 2016

    And more of those species in trouble:

    Thousands Of Starved Dead Birds Wash Up On Alaska’s Coasts, And Climate Change Could Be The Culprit

    and because the denial-o-pharts never follow up on links I’ll do it for them from the above linked article:

    Mass Death of Seabirds in Western U.S. Is ‘Unprecedented’.

    Cue some stupid claptrap from the usual suspects in 1….2….3….

  9. #9 Lionel A
    January 17, 2016

    Now GSW and his guru Crockford ain’t going to like this:

    Environmental Change Rate Unprecedented, Study Says

    I don’t like it either but not for the same reasons as they.

  10. #10 Stu 2
    January 17, 2016

    WOW.
    It’s not rocket science.
    We HAD our winter 2015 in June/July/August 2015.
    Consequently, Winter 2015 can be reported in my part of the world.
    In your part of the world, that was your Summer.
    Our Summer crosses over a calendar year like your Winter does.
    The Winter season in the section of Australia where I live was a good season for Agriculture.
    That was partly because the rains came at the right time.
    BoM reported it as one of the wettest on record for our area.
    The bulk of inland NSW, Vic and SA, did OK over 2015 even though it wasn’t necessarily as wet as here.
    Typically for Australia, that was not the case everywhere.
    NW Vic missed out on timely precipitation, for example.
    However, the yield totals for Vic as a whole were OK.

  11. #11 turboblocke
    January 17, 2016

    #1 WOW I interpreted “Australia? That would be your SUMMER, you haven’t had your WINTER yet. Dumbass as objecting to him stating “ In my part of the world and according to BoM we had our wettest winter on record in 2015.””

    It is clear that the BOM feels that there was a Winter in 2015 as the link to their Winter 2015 Report shows. Note that Stu2 didn’t call it Winter 2015, he just said,”… wettest winter on record in 2015.”

    I did doubt Stu’s claim that it was the wettest winter on record, but he has now clarified that he didn’t mean Australia, just his local area IIUC. Although I don’t recall him giving a link and the BOM report doesn’t talk of any records being broken: perhaps you could oblige with a link Stu2?

  12. #12 Craig Thomas
    January 18, 2016

    @ Stu2, on a recent excursion towards the most southerly of the 3 areas mentioned, I noted very green hills where usually they would be very brown at this time of year.
    It is good to see that I can put your observation and BoM’s published data together and successfully get the answer to 2 + 2 = ?

    As for Wow, farknose what he realises. Your statement was,
    “…we had our wettest winter on record in 2015”, to which he gave the rather bizarre response,
    “you haven’t had your WINTER yet”.
    Wow can admit he made a mistake, or he can claim his response was a 100% non-sequitur.
    What he can’t do is claim the exchange reflected on anybody else’s comprehension skills.

  13. #13 Stu 2
    January 18, 2016

    Craig.
    Correct.
    The landscape does tell the story.
    Everywhere I have been in the 3 areas mentioned, with the exception of NW Vic, has had a good season.
    There is healthy ground cover, healthy stubble, healthy stock, good yields, healthy trees, plenty of bird life & etc.
    Another exception is the depletion of water resources in the Menindee/Broken Hill/ Lower Darling, but that is mostly the result of mismanagement on the part of State and Federal NRM departments.
    The actual winter season in those areas was fine.
    BoM however has a ‘drier than average’ figure for Australia over Winter.
    My point remains that even though that is an interesting calculation, it doesn’t capture what really matters in our highly variable climate. That particularly applies to precipitation and agricultural/wetland/ecological productivity.
    2012 was reported by BoM as 30% wetter than average but because the bulk of the rain and the flooding occurred in late Summer, early Autumn those precipitation figures did not translate into good results right across the TBL.
    Our area was actually flooded in 2012, but because there wasn’t good rains in Winter/Spring agricultural/wetland/ecological productivity was not as good as 2015 has been.

  14. #14 Wow
    January 18, 2016

    “#1 WOW I interpreted ”

    That was your problem, then.

    “It is clear that the BOM feels that there was a Winter in 2015 ”

    And where did I say there wasn’t a winter in 2015? All I said they haven’t had their winter yet.

    You DO know that there’s another winter due in Australia in the next few months, right?

    “I did doubt Stu’s claim that it was the wettest winter on record”

    So I can assume that you think no water fell from the sky in that winter and make fun of your stupidity.

  15. #15 Wow
    January 18, 2016

    “It’s not rocket science.
    We HAD our winter 2015 in June/July/August 2015.”

    It isn’t. What it also isn’t is relevant. You never said “HAD”. And you now think that it isn’t the wettest winter. Or it is. Or something.

    What you also don’t know is what the fuck you’re trying to say.

    Because you don’t do meaning. Only proclamation.

    “Our Summer crosses over a calendar year like your Winter does.”

    So you only just found out? I knew years and years ago. Hence my “this would be your summer”. Obviously you don’t know that summer exists in Australia.

  16. #16 Wow
    January 18, 2016

    “As for Wow, farknose what he realises. Your statement was,
    “…we had our wettest winter on record in 2015”, to which he gave the rather bizarre response,
    “you haven’t had your WINTER yet”.
    Wow can admit he made a mistake, or he can claim his response was a 100% non-sequitur.”

    No Craig “Stop the nig nogs dropping sprogs” McAsshole, when stupid made the stupid comment you adore so much and wish to promote for reasons best left between you and stupid’s dick cheese, that Australia were having their summer and their winter was yet to come.

    But you hate the idea that I tell you off for wanting to kill of the niggers who are the “elephant in the room” for climate change because they have children faster than the whiteys. You don’t WANT to know that it’s worse for a rich white kid like yourself than for a poor black family because you’re so damn profligate with your energy.

    But you don’t want to change, so it must be those darkies’ fault.

    So you want them to die off.

  17. #17 Wow
    January 18, 2016

    Hey, Craig McAsshat, is the response to Stupid’s ridiculous claim “So what?” ALSO a nonsequitur?

    I think you need to read up what the fucking word means.

  18. #18 cRR Kampen
    January 18, 2016

    Since not much happened here, just a repost.

    “polar bears seem more than capable of surviving ice free summers” – except they probably never experienced one.

    Given the acutely graying demography of Nanuk today, they may not even have experienced years with as little ice as past decade.
    So ‘it seems’ that the end of Arctic sea ice is indeed the end of Nanuk.

    Hastened thru the point Wow makes – ‘first we make them refugees, then we shoot the refugees’.

  19. #19 Turboblocke
    January 18, 2016

    Wow : when you’re in a hole, stop digging.

  20. #20 Stu 2
    January 18, 2016

    WOW.
    We most certainly have had our Winter 2015.
    As I previously commented, it’s not rocket science.
    Australia’s winter 2015 was June-August 2015.
    In my area it was a wet season. BoM says one of the wettest.
    At this juncture we don’t know how wet our winter 2016 will be.

  21. #21 Wow
    January 18, 2016

    You most certainly haven’t had the winter coming, Stupid.

    What? Do you think you’re a timetraveller???

  22. #22 Wow
    January 18, 2016

    Tudbo, when I want a hole, I’ll ask you. Advice isn’t going to be something you’re asked for when you think that the entire winter season had no rain…

  23. #23 Stu 2
    January 18, 2016

    WOW.
    Our next winter will be June – August 2016.
    We have most definitely had our 2015 winter here in Australia.
    In my area it was very wet. BoM reports it as one of the wettest.
    It resulted in a good season for ag production.
    It seriously isn’t rocket science.
    Your seasons are opposite to ours on the calendar year.
    You are having your 2015/16 winter now.
    It’s Summer here in Australia.
    Our winter 2015 has already happened.

  24. #24 Craig Thomas
    January 19, 2016

    Wow says,
    “You never said “HAD””

    But, Stu2 had said, in the post that has excited Wow well past the point of intellectual coherence,
    “we had our wettest winter on record in 2015”

    Turboblocke said,
    “Wow : when you’re in a hole, stop digging.”

    I’m going to go out on a limb here: Wow is trying to reach China.

    As for cRR Kampen,
    “first we make them refugees, then we shoot the refugees’”
    Paternalistic nonsense.
    Apparently the 3rd-world are not responsible for their situation – only Whiteman has the capacity to choose its destiny.
    I guess your Victorian attitudes towards the Races of Man give you some kind of comfort…

  25. #25 Wow
    January 19, 2016

    Hey, halfwits and other morons.

    What is your problem with “THIS IS AUSTRALIA’S SUMMER”???

    They are currently what? In their winter? No. In their spring? No. In their autumn? No.

    What do you think the season IS in Australia?

    What problem do you have with the statement I made:

    Australia? That would be your SUMMER, you haven’t had your WINTER yet. Dumbass.

    Or are you doing-a-GSW and reading only what you like to read? And I’m looking at you, you racist holocaust promoter, Craig.

  26. #26 cRR Kampen
    January 19, 2016

    Craig, those ‘refugees’ alluded to polar bears.

    As to human refugees, check out what Holland did in the 1930’s with the German refugee Jews. They were put in camps, ready to be taken to Bergen-Belsen or Sobibor a couple of years later.

    Don’t ever try me again on this subject. Don’t project your obsessions on me. Thanks.

  27. #27 Stu 2
    January 19, 2016

    That’s a deep hole you’re digging Wow.
    We most certainly have had our Winter 2015 in Australia.
    In my part of the world it was a wet Winter.
    BoM says one of the wettest.
    It resulted in a good season for Agriculture.

  28. #28 Wow
    January 19, 2016

    What hole? The one that isn’t saying what your problem is with the statement ” Australia? That would be your SUMMER, you haven’t had your WINTER yet. Dumbass.”?

    Despite being asked several times, your “problem” with it is still indeterminate, but “endemic” to whatever psychotic little alcove you’ve stuffed your ego into.

    But you won’t stop digging this wall of ignorance around you, and then pointing at everyone above you and going “Stop digging a hole!!!!”.

    Because you’re a retard, and you haven’t got a clue what you’re talking about.

    Maybe if you just admitted to your mistake and accepted that you’re currently in summer time where you are you could at least START on getting out of the corner you’ve painted yourself into…

    But you daren’t ever admit mistake. After all, once you’ve admitted one, you may be asked to admit all the other ones too. And then eventually you’d have to give up your fairytales about how AGW is a illuminati scam or whatever your fevered ego has latched itself onto.

  29. #29 Craig Thomas
    January 20, 2016

    Well, Stu2, you can see Wow has a fair point – after all, when you foolishly use words which indicate the past tense, such as “we had”, it is clearly *your* fault when somebody else confuses that past tense for the present.

    *Obviously* when you said “we had winter in 2015” you are being unacceptably ambiguous as a perfectly reasonable person would be excused for thinking you were talking about the present Summer.

    In other news:
    “your “problem” with it is still indeterminate, but “endemic” to whatever psychotic little alcove you’ve stuffed your ego into.”
    …it’s always projection….

    Such a shame Wow isn’t a climate-change denying creationist – we really don’t need nutters pretending they are on the side of reason…

  30. #30 Billy the Mountain
    Melbourne
    January 20, 2016

    Wouldn’t mind seeing the rainfall data from BoM to support the “wettest winter on record in my area” claim Stu2. Overall Aust had a slightly dry year and many agricultural areas are experiencing very dry conditions and failed crops.

    BtM

  31. #31 Bernard J.
    January 20, 2016

    I’ll reiterate BtM’s point. There are many places in Australia suffering drought and even record dryness, and yet Stu 2 impliess that because his ankles are wet there is no global climate change.

    Can anyone spot Stu 2’s logical fallacy?

  32. #32 Stu 2
    January 20, 2016

    Yes Billy the Mountain.
    I have already commented that typically for Australia, that was not the case everywhere.
    I have also already commented that an average precipitation figure does not capture what really matters in terms of agricultural/wetland/ecological productivity in Australia.
    Any farmer can tell you it is possible to harvest a bumper crop in a below average precipitation year or vice versa and further variations.
    When it rains is just as important as how much.
    BoM reported 2012 as 30% wetter than average but because those rains mostly fell in late Summer/Early Autumn it did not translate into a particularly good season for Ag in my area, even though we were flooded in March 2012.
    Craig linked some of the rainfall data, for that Winter that Wow doesn’t think we have had yet on a previous page.
    He also tagged the area that I am talking about, along with other areas that had wet winter seasons.
    In our local media, BoM was quoted as saying that we had the wettest winter on record.
    That has translated into a pretty good season because the rains came at the right time.

  33. #33 Stu 2
    January 20, 2016

    Bernard J
    I have made no such claim.

  34. #34 Billy the Mountain
    Melbourne
    January 20, 2016

    2012! Keep up man. Just wanted to see which area in Australia during 2015 had record winter rainfall.
    BtM

  35. #35 Craig Thomas
    January 20, 2016

    I established that the BoM’s figures show that for the Winter of 2015 (not to be confused with the Summer of 2015/2016), there was a tiny minority of Australia’s inhabited land which saw very high rainfall, roughly, Cobargo, Nowra, and Griffith:
    http://www.bom.gov.au/jsp/awap/rain/index.jsp?colour=colour&time=history%2Fnat%2F2015050120150731&step=4&map=decile&period=3month&area=nat

    Given Stu2’s obsession with crop yields, we may be safe in assuming he is suggesting he lives in Griffith.

    Note from the map that overall, Australia’s trend for decreasing rainfall is continuing and that the Winter of 2015 was dry – critically it was very dry over much of Victoria, Adelaide, Sydney and the Brisbane/Gold Coast area – these are the areas that support most of our population.

  36. #36 Craig Thomas
    January 20, 2016

    …oops, I left out Perth. Very, very dry Winter there, too.

    Remember Tim Flannery warning that the trend for decreasing rainfall represented a risk for the water supplies of Perth, Adelaide and Brisbane that needs to be addressed?
    Remember the Denier-dopes castigating him for making “false predictions”?
    Turns out Flannery’s warnings are still correct……

    https://www.nccarf.edu.au/sites/default/files/attached_files_publications/WATER_070313_A4.pdf
    (graphic on p2)

  37. #37 Jp
    January 20, 2016

    A simple “oops, misread/misunderstood what Stu2 said” by Wow would have been quick and painless. No one would have given a stuff about it, and it would have avoided so many unnecessary insults to and fro. But I’m glad we’ve moved on (I hope) _ I won’t say any more on it.

    On the declining rainfall trend in Perth and the SouthWest of WA, from Craig’s link: “The average flow rate into Perth’s dams has declined steeply: the 2006-2010 average was 57.7 GL/year compared to an average of 177 GL/year for the period 1975-2010.”

    A two-third reduction in rainfall; quite alarming if I may say so. Unless you’re a denier, of course. Then cognitive dissonance and ideology will make sure that no inconvenient truths or facts will enter your conciousness and your shallow and intellectually dishonest thought processes _ which have a propensity for lying, distorting and cherry-picking _ will, not surprisingly, be incapable of comprehending the significance of the various trends, e.g. the steeply rising global warmth, the steeply declining Arctic ice, (in Perth) the steeply declining rainfall _ and envisioning any scenarios which run counter to the Pollyanaish simpleton’s mindset of blind faith in the capitalist dream of guilt-free and consequence-free limitless consumption.

    Thank Christ we spent a couple of billion dollars on two desalination plants in Perth otherwise we’d be up shit-creek…wouldn’t even need a paddle as we’d be stuck on the rocks. We’d have to adapt to drinking seawater. Well…why not? Look at polar bears, they might as well turn adaptation into a hobby. They haven’t just adapted throughout the eons _ they’ve adapted back and forth. Poor things are dizzy.

  38. #38 Wow
    January 20, 2016

    “Well, Stu2, you can see Wow has a fair point – after all, when you foolishly use words which indicate the past tense, such as “we had”,”

    Well, moron, I guess you just can’t bring yourself to say what issue you have with the statement:

    Australia? That would be your SUMMER, you haven’t had your WINTER yet. Dumbass

    i guess you really can’t admit that it IS summer in Australia at the moment and they haven’t had their winter yet, for reasons you really can’t describe, much like stupid here. After all, you’re invested in the idea that I must be wrong,but not able to work out why and unwilling to admit that failure of intellect on your part.

    So you talk to Stupid here rather than address the problem because you feel a kindred spirit in the lack of intelligence with that idiot, and want to get the reassurance of another clueless fuckwit who you agree with.

    Winter happens at the end of the year.
    Do you think the Aborigines thought “Fuck it, lets have winter in the middle of the year”?

    So what’s your problem with the statement

    Australia? That would be your SUMMER, you haven’t had your WINTER yet. Dumbass

  39. #39 Wow
    January 20, 2016

    Please also note that Stupid, as usual, doesn’t even agree with himself on what “we had” where he lives. It’s both been the wettest and also no extreme weather and also not been the wettest, but also been the wettest winter.

    Of course, Craig “Kill the Wogs” McAsshat here doesn’t know what he’s agreeing with Stupid here either, he’s just on an insane ranting against someone who doesn’t let him get away with palming off the problem of AGW on the third world.

  40. #40 Wow
    January 20, 2016

    “A simple “oops, misread/misunderstood what Stu2 said” by Wow would have been quick and painless”

    Except I didn’t, asshat.

    Go back to page 1 and read what you and turbo and others said.

    If we wanted “quick and painless” a “So what” that was proffered by one poster would have been it.

    Tell me, JP, why don’t you admit that you have made a mistake and misunderstood what I was saying?

    “_ I won’t say any more on it.”

    Why the fuck did you say that? Is this going to be a method by which you can assuage your guilt of not saying what you find wrong with the statement that Australia is in its summer and winter is yet to come? Or avoid having to admit you misunderstood me?

  41. #41 Jp
    January 20, 2016

    Oh, FFS Wow, are you for real? Now you’ve goaded me into saying more.

    I might have misunderstood what you’re saying, but that means YOU’VE misunderstood what Stu2 was saying because I’m confident _ 100% certainty _ that I understood Stu2.

    Ok, read carefully.

    WE’RE TALKING ABOUT 2015, REPEAT 2015, WINTER.

    2015 IS GONE. REPEAT, 2015 IS GONE.

    OUR NEXT WINTER IS 2016. REPEAT, OUR NEXT WINTER IS 2016.

    MORE PRECISELY, JUNE-JULY-AUGUST 2016.

    Phew! That was hard work.

    THIS TIME for sure I’m not going to say any more on that topic.

  42. #42 Wow
    January 20, 2016

    “Oh, FFS Wow, are you for real? Now you’ve goaded me into saying more. ”

    Oh FFS, JP, you really only wanted to blame me for not letting you have the last word.

    “WE’RE TALKING ABOUT 2015, REPEAT 2015, WINTER. ”

    READ CAREFULLY
    WE ARE TALKING ABOUT WHAT YOUR PROBLEM IS WITH AUSTRALIA BEING IN ITS SUMMER

    Refusing to say that you know what the hell I said and don’t want to know, just want to rant and rave is really not going to make you sane or rational.

    What, again, is your problem with ” Australia? That would be your SUMMER, you haven’t had your WINTER yet. Dumbass”?

    Do you have no problem with that statement? If so, what the fuck IS your problem?

  43. #43 Turboblocke
    France
    January 20, 2016

    Wow: #12 I’m intrigued… How can you interpret what I said about the wettest winter on record to mean that I think that “… no water fell from the sky…”?

  44. #44 Turboblocke
    January 20, 2016

    Wow:Perhaps a timely reminder: Stu2 said,”..according to BoM we had our wettest winter on record in 2015.”

    To me that means the winter that occurred in the calendar year 2015, i.e. between January and December 2015. It appears that you interpret it otherwise.

  45. #45 Turboblocke
    January 20, 2016

    BTW back to #12, I’m really intrigued as to how you can interpret anything that I said as implying that no water fell last winter. Care to enlighten me?

  46. #46 Wow
    January 20, 2016

    And another timely reminder, this one for you, turbo, is that I said “Australia? That would be your SUMMER, you haven’t had your WINTER yet. Dumbass”.

    To me, this means that Australia is currently having its summer and therefore their winter is yet to come, being the future seasonal change that comes after the autumn, which is likewise in the future, though less in the future than its winter.

    It appears you interpret this otherwise.

    Care to say as what?

  47. #47 Stu 2
    January 20, 2016

    WOW.
    It’s not rocket science.
    In that sentence I used HAD & 2015.
    We have indeed HAD our winter 2015 in Australia.
    BoM has even had time to report on Australia’s Winter 2015.
    It is indeed Summer NOW in Australia.
    It’s also 2016.
    Australia’s most recent Winter was June-August 2015.
    Our next Winter will be June-August 2016.
    I was commenting on Winter 2015 and absolutely, most definitely we have already had that winter season here.
    It was very wet in my part of the world.
    BoM reports it as a ‘wettest’.

  48. #48 Bernard J.
    January 20, 2016

    Bernard J
    I have made no such claim.

    You know something, I knew that you would say that. It’s why I didn’t use “claims” or “says” but instead used “implies” – typo notwithstanding. Because that’s what you’re doing – trying to minimise the fact of global warming.

    Stu 2, face it. The planet is warming, we’re responsible, it’s scewing with our climate, and it’s not good.

    Any denial of these points is wishful thinking and contrary to the best science.

  49. #49 Stu 2
    January 21, 2016

    Bernard J
    I have implied(d) no such thing.

  50. #50 Craig Thomas
    January 21, 2016

    Therefore the question that is begging here, Stu2, is,
    in the context of a discussion about the irrefutable facts that are global warming and changing rainfall patterns,
    why is,
    your part of the world (in the sense of a very strictly limited part of the world) having had its wettest winter on record,
    relevant?

    The inescapable conclusion is that you are denying the facts of global warming, in this case your method is Diversion through Cherry Picking.

    Because most of Australia had a dry winter, which is a problem.

  51. #51 Stu 2
    January 21, 2016

    Craig.
    Some of Australia had a dry winter, some of Australia had a wet winter, some small pockets had a ‘wettest’ figure and other places had a drought.
    A whole of country average gives a drier than average.
    It’s an interesting figure but commenting like that on Australian precipitation figures is neither a confirmation nor a denial of global warming.
    Those figures do not capture what really matters in terms of agricultural/wetland/ecological productivity in Australia.
    The landscape or the environment tells the story, not the BoM whole of country averages.

  52. #52 Bernard J.
    January 21, 2016

    As Craig Thomas indicates Stu 2, your previous behaviour on this blog begs the question in realtio to your last comment.

    So, Stu 2, here’s your chance to shine.

    1) Do you acknowledge that humans have increased the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere from a pre-Industrial Revolution value of 280 ppm to 400 ppm today?

    2) Do you accept that CO2 is a ‘greenhouse’ gas?

    3) Do you acknowledge that the increase in global temperature from just before the beginning of the Industrial Revolution through to today is 1.25 °C?

    4) Do you accept that the science indicates that on the balance of all forcings, both natural and anthropogenic, the observed net contemporary warming is all a consequence of human CO2 emissions, and

    5) indeed, that some of the warming caused by antropogenic emission has been masked by anthropogenic aerols?

    6) Do you acknowledge that on the basis of the numbers above, the aggregate climate sensitivity as defined by the realised current amount warming resulting from the emissions to date, is equivalent to 2.43 °C per doubling of CO2?

    7) Within the constraints* of the climate sensitivity as derived in the previous point, do you nevertheless accept that such a value is entirely consistent with an equilibrium climate sensitivity of around 3 °C (or higher…)?

    8) Do you understand that an increase of anything more than 2 °C has profoundly serious ecological and social consequences for the planet, and that the damage increases exponentially (and more…) with each additional degree of warming over 2 °C?

    [*This aggregate value includes some increase from earlier natural feedings-back, but it also includes the negative forcing of aerosols which are effectively a temporary input into the system. This makes the aggregate likely to be a fairly good approximation of transient climate sensitivity. I hope that it’s still a high estimation though, once historic feedings-back are properly accounted for, but given the length of time required to realise most such feedings-back, and the fact that most of the CO2 forcing is relatively recent, I have reservations. Especially worrying because such a high TCS may presage a higher ECS…

    I think that some fancy mathematical footwork might be able to pick both the actual transient and (at least some of the) equilibrium sensitivites from the current trajectory, but my first year university calculus is rusty… Still, a few years ago I estimated ECS at 3.4 °C, and I’m seeing no indication that I should resile from that.

    Of course, if one argues that the aggregate value that I derived is not reflective of the transient climate sensitivity, and that it actually already incoorporates a fair degree of feedback as well, then one is effectively saying that the feedback sensitivity is high, and therefore that the final equilibrium sensitivity will still be high. Whichever way one looks at it, there is no get-out-of-jail card…]

  53. #53 Stu 2
    January 21, 2016

    Bernard J.
    I question the practicalities of the policies and the politics.
    In most cases and from all sides science has been hijacked.
    I particularly question an underlying belief in some type of benevolent global dictatorship that uses ‘the climate’ and/or ‘the environment’ as justification.
    I care about and care for landscapes and environment.
    I don’t care for environmental politics.
    Because I live and work in rural/regional Australia I get to see the miserable failure of current environmental politics.
    It is peopled by far too many like WOW who would die in a ditch that they’re digging to China rather than admit that they may have got something wrong. They’re also completely unwilling to undo what has proved to be poor policy.
    In particular that type of behaviour from the environmental political machine has alienated the demographic that should be working with government to formulate sensible and practical policy.
    I was raised to respect ‘experts’ and those in authority.
    Sadly, since the rapid rise of ‘environmentalism’ in politics and academia, experience has taught me to withdraw some of that respect and trust.
    I have often commented here that of course this world would be different if there was no such species as homo- sapiens.
    Of course human behaviour, both good and bad has an impact on climate and environment, both good and bad.
    I would like to see policies that build on what’s good and what works as well as practical policies that repair the many stuff ups.

  54. #54 Craig Thomas
    January 21, 2016

    In that case, Stu 2, you and I are not too many pages apart.

    I, also, have ever-diminishing respect for the hijackers of “environmentalism” who are frittering away their “Green” political capital pushing crypto-Marxist lies, fantasies and policies designed to destabilize society.

    *My* page, however, includes respect for facts, logic and honesty.

    A Stalin-apologist using a “Green” cloak to push her ridiculous ideologies is, you see, far less damaging in practical effect (except to the Green movement) than is the loose alliance of fossil-fuel lobbyists, transnational corporations and media empires, and dishonest right-wing lobby groups such as the IPA (not to mention all their myriad fellow-travelling clowns and useful idiots) who have all successfully so far,
    – maintained a political dialogue whereby science facts are continually irrationally questioned if not downright rejected,
    – maintained massive taxpayer-funded subsidies for industries which continue to externalize what we now know are enormous future costs onto the public
    – blocked meaningful expenditure on the very necessary energy revolution we urgently need to provide energy security and an end to our reliance on last century’s polluting technologies.

    A rational personal appreciation of reality should transcend the resulting opprobrium from irrational ideologues – whether it is your opposition to the influx of 3rd-world no-hopers or opposition to the even more damaging and costly fossil-fuel interests.

  55. #55 Stu 2
    January 21, 2016

    I see we are largely on the same page Craig.
    My page however sees little to no difference in ‘right wing’ ‘left wing’ behavior.
    Neither wing is particularly interested in honestly appraising good policy and/or undoing poor policy.
    Much damage has been done and continued to be done right accross the triple bottom line .
    I find it interesting that you label organizations such as IPA as ‘right wing’.
    Isn’t ‘right wing’ part of socialism’s terminology?
    I would accuse IPA of being ‘socialists’.

  56. #56 Stu 2
    January 21, 2016

    Sorry.
    WOULDN’T accuse…”

  57. #57 Jp
    January 21, 2016

    What a litany of intellectually dishonest justifications, displaying the all-too-familiar lack of self-awareness common to all deniers. And confirming that denial is all about the politics. But we already knew that.

    “In most cases and from all sides science has been hijacked.”

    There’s plenty of evidence to show that the hijacking or attempts at hijacking have been coming from the conservative, denier side of politics. Just a couple of examples are the Abbott government cutting CSIRO funding and disbanding the Climate Commission and Lamar Smith’s inquisition of NOAA in the US.

    To say that governments who listen to consensus scientific advice and act on it amounts to a politicization of the science is absurd nonsense. Does that apply to medical science? Has medical science been hijacked by politics because governments frame their health policies around the advice from medical experts?

    “I question the practicalities of the policies and the politics.”

    Most economists say that putting a price on carbon, whether a straight tax or letting the market establish a price through an ETS, is the most efficient way of reducing our CO2 emissions. It’s disingenuous of deniers to question policies to reduce CO2 while denying that CO2 is a problem. And those who genuinely question the effectiveness of carbon pricing haven’t proposed anything better. No, Direct Action, which is voluntary and imposes no penalties for not adhering to polution limits is just a pig dressed up in a tutu.

    Stu2 talks about the politics of the whole thing; how about the politics of pretending to do something when you don’t even believe that anything NEEDS to be done. I’m talking about the Abbott government, the ones who created the dressed-up pig. Turnbull is our side and is a “warmist” but is constrained by promises to the Nats not to dismantle their current sham Direct Action policy. So I think he’ll try the best he can to tweak it without breaking those promises.

    “I particularly question an underlying belief in some type of benevolent global dictatorship that uses ‘the climate’ and/or ‘the environment’ as justification.”

    We live in a global village, and global problems require global action, so live with it. I mean, how else could it be. Simple-minded fuckwits like GSW are probably in a bit of a panic after the Paris agreements and are deluding themselves that nobody cares about the issue anymore. But he’ll get swept away by the tide of history… like a piece of garbage, like a used condom on the pavement outside a brothel on a busy Saturday night, he’ll be swept away by the street cleaners in the early hours of the morning… and all will be clean and new again. Sorry, I digress.

    But anyway, you either believe that something NEEDS to be done or you don’t. If you DO believe then you accept the best policies for achieving that and since we’re talking about a global problem then obviously it has to be tackled within a global framework. How are national, fragmented, individual policies where countries can opt in or out going to achieve anything?

    “It is peopled by far too many like WOW who would die in a ditch that they’re digging to China rather than admit that they may have got something wrong.”

    A good start would be to look in the mirror. How many deniers have ever admitted to being wrong about anything, ever. Deniers just go around in circles; when they can’t substiate one denier meme they just move on the next and when they’ve run out of them they start from number 1 again. How many of your dumb talking points have you admitted to being wrong, Stu2? For example, you were pushing the “BOM are making fraudulent adjustments” thing for quite a while. Have you demonstrated that those adjustments are wrong, unjustified, or fraudulent in any way? All over the net your ilk are still accusing NOAA of “adjusting” the temperatures but there’s very little if any scientific analysis by them to demonstrate that those adjustments were done incompetently or were unjustified. Just conspiracy ideation… while at the same time protesting that the Lewandowski paper was unfairly and wrongly labelling them as conspiratorial idiots.

    “I was raised to respect ‘experts’ and those in authority.”

    Lol. Again that lack of self-awareness. Back to BOM _ BOM are the experts, not Moronhassy or any of the other “experts” on your side who wouldn’t know their arse from their elbow. And when you look at climate science as a whole the ratio of denier science vs established science is ridiculous. You’ve got less than a handful of scientists with any qualifications in climate related science disciplines and you keep trotting out those same people just to give your side some air of scientific credibility. Sure, Galileo was also in the minority, so the argument is not that we’re right because we’ve got more scientists; we’re right because our scientists produce science, just like Galileo, and your scientists have produced fuck-all of any substance. The only data that’s produced by your guys, Spencer and Christie’s satellite data, seems to be highly problematic and questionable; a lot of algorithmic manipulations and adjustments to turn microwave data into temperature data. And you guys, being the critically thinking, highly objective type of people you are just swooped on it and hung on to it for dear life in preference to the other data sets. Because….it showed the least warming? No?

    Pathetic, Stu2. Please “contribute” something better.

  58. #58 Wow
    January 21, 2016

    OK, so skimmed all the moron responses, NONE OF YOU have said what your problem is with my statement, but none of you are willing to accept it in any case.

    NONE OF YOU.

    Why is that? It’s not rocket science.

    I said it’s Australia, that they are experiencing summer, that their winter is not yet there and that stupid is a dumbass.

    However I now appear to have to include not only Stupid in the dumbass category, but JP, Craig McAsshat in there too. This is not a good thing.

  59. #59 Jeff Harvey
    January 21, 2016

    Stu writes some clap-trap about environmentalis, then Craig follows it up with this stinker, “I also, have ever-diminishing respect for the hijackers of “environmentalism” who are frittering away their “Green” political capital pushing crypto-Marxist lies, fantasies and policies designed to destabilize society”

    The Stu2 throws in a snide remark about socialists. What this shows is that he is as thick as two planks.

    What fantasies are those? That capitalism and free market absolutism are incompatible with a sustainable future? That our dominant economic and political systems are destroying nature with remarkable efficiency? Chris Hedges would eat Craig’s comment and spit it out. I would too, but I don’t want to waste my time on these two simpletons. I have better things to do.

  60. #60 Wow
    January 21, 2016

    It’s because of all that “trickle down” we’re getting here outside the elite and powerful.

    The mantra is that this is money, but it fells like something completely different…

    But if we had less regulation or gave the rich even more money, THEN they’d be spending it and we’d all be wealthy (as long as we “deserve” it), so their hoarding is because “socialists” are soaking the rich, and they’re only doing the rational thing “all of us” would do too.

  61. #61 Stu 2
    January 21, 2016

    JP & Jeff Harvey.
    You have clearly demonstrated exactly what I was trying to say by launching into a litany about sides.
    Thank you.
    WOW.
    In answer to your question.
    It’s because you doubled down, then tripled down, then quadrupled down & etc.

  62. #62 Wow
    January 21, 2016

    So you still refuse to acknowledge that Australia really IS in its summer, stupid.

    As to your “what I was trying to say ” how does your mis-remembererance of whether or not australia had an extreme weather event,whether it was or was not wettest, and whether that was or was not an extreme event indicate ANYTHING about “sides”????

    Full wootard, stupid. Full woo tard.

  63. #63 Wow
    January 21, 2016

    “It’s because you doubled down”

    On Australia being in its summer? Well only because you kept whining about me saying it was summer there. Does repeating it somehow cause you to believe it wrong? In which case you need to look at how you nontillion-downed on AGW being false.

  64. #64 Craig Thomas
    January 21, 2016

    ” our dominant economic and political systems are destroying nature”

    Our dominant economic and political systems have *also* identified the problem AND determined the necessary actions to address it, PLUS have developed the requisite technology to do it with.

    Anybody who travelled behind the Iron Curtain would know that the alternative to capitalism not only stifled intellectual and economic growth, it also produced some of the most stunningly destructive pollution the Globe has seen.

    Environmentalism is about *conservation* and respecting the value of rational enquiry and knowledge, but it is being hijacked by people pushing irrelevant progressive ideas (dressed-up in post-modern irrational claptrap) that alienate the likes of Stu 2 (and me) and reduce the value of Green political capital.

    I long ago stopped volunteering at my local Greens branch when it became clear the organization was happy to act as a refuge for Stalin-apologists and as a conduit for their nasty ideas.

  65. #65 Craig Thomas
    January 21, 2016

    Wow:
    “It’s because of all that “trickle down” we’re getting here outside the elite and powerful.”

    Gosh, get with the 21st Century.
    It is now obvious to anybody with a brain that unequal distribution of wealth is a function of human nature and not something you can blame on a political system you’ve been trained to dislike.
    Even more obvious is the fact that wealth is generated and poverty minimized by the political system you decry. The alternatives produce far less wealth resulting in far worse poverty.
    Of course the IPA turns this into a false dichotomy whereby the word “sustainable” becomes a dirty word. They are as ideologically blinkered as you are.

  66. #66 Wow
    January 21, 2016

    “Our dominant economic and political systems have *also* identified the problem ”

    Only by the efforts of people that include many who think the cause is our industrialisation and capitalist system that you proclaim are poisoning “Green”.

    And it is currently running 20-40 years on holding doing anything substantively close to doing anything about it, but has made it actually worse.

    “Anybody who travelled behind the Iron Curtain would know that the alternative to capitalism ”

    Anybody who wasn’t an indoctrinated nincompoop would know that Stalinism isn’t the only alternative to capitalism. And capitalism has done absolutely no better than communism here.

    Not to mention China, a communist country, is doing far more in real terms right here and right now and planning hard for the future *and following those plans* than most of the capitalist world.

    Cherry picking at its finest.

    “Environmentalism is about *conservation* ”

    If it were, then it wouldn’t need the other word.

    “people pushing irrelevant progressive ideas ”

    You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

    “when it became clear the organization was happy to act as a refuge for Stalin-apologists”

    IOW when you weren’t agreed with and your political bigotries were espoused to the exhaustion of the patience of those around you to put up with your drivel.

    “Gosh, get with the 21st Century.”

    Non sequitur and poisoning the well fallacy.

    “unequal distribution of wealth is a function of human nature and not something you can blame on a political system”

    yes you can. capitalism. unless you’re going to define it as a non-political system, but since we’ve been TALKING about capitalism, your accusation there, is as well as being unsupported conjecture but also a non sequitur.

    “Even more obvious is the fact that wealth is generated and poverty minimized by the political system you decry”

    Nope, under this system ther may be more wealth but it is fitting into fewer and fewer pockets and there are more and more poor people.

    5 years ago the top 138 people owned as much as the bottom 50%. Since then it’s dropped to 62 people.

    And poverty rates have increased.

    So not a fallacy.

    Just false.

  67. #67 Stu 2
    January 21, 2016

    Craig.
    I think political environmentalism should have been about conservation.
    I strongly support conservation.
    You are correct that environmental politics has alienated the likes of me.
    Even more disappointing is that it has alienated the demographic (ie the people who actually live & work outside the major centres) who should be encouraged to work with policy makers to build on the good stuff that actually works and get rid of the nonsense stuff that is creating further damage right accross the TBL.

  68. #68 Stu 2
    January 21, 2016

    To further clarify.
    Yes there are already many technical solutions to address identified issues but those ‘hijackers’ hate all that stuff.

  69. #69 Wow
    January 21, 2016

    Clarify what? You’ve not said anything substantive.Again.

  70. #70 Stu 2
    January 21, 2016

    WOW.
    Look at your comment @#60.
    And then look how you landed there.
    You are demonstrating exactly why so many are completely disenchanted with what you would call ‘your side’.

  71. #71 turboblocke
    January 21, 2016

    #43 Wow: in December 2015 Australia had Summer, prior to that it had Spring and before that it had Winter. Therefore it is not wrong of Stu 2 to say ”..according to BoM we had our wettest winter on record in 2015.”

  72. #72 Craig Thomas
    January 21, 2016

    Lol!
    Turboblocke is dedicated. The rest of us have given up hope that the increasingly insane WoW will ever admit he stuffed up.

    Meanwhile, Stu2’s local “2015 was the wettest winter ever” doesn’t seem to be particularly significant in the grand scheme of trying to grow stuff in Australia, as reported today:

    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jan/21/victorian-farmers-call-for-pipelines-to-save-their-region-from-climate-change

  73. #73 Stu 2
    January 22, 2016

    Craig
    Yet if you look up Victoria’s 2015 harvest results we see a different story.
    There are indeed however pockets in Vic that had a shocker season. NW Vic is the standout for a shocker.
    To me however, the story you linked has more to do with mismanagement of the water resources, particularly groundwater.
    Ironically, that is one the areas IMHO that the ‘hijackers’ from all sides have managed to exacerbate rather than work with people like those farmers to seek sensible, practical solutions.

  74. #74 Jeff Harvey
    January 22, 2016

    “Our dominant economic and political systems have *also* identified the problem AND determined the necessary actions to address it, PLUS have developed the requisite technology to do it with”

    In a pig’s eye. We’ve known that humanity and nature have been on a collision course for several decades now and have done bugger all to rectify it. Unregulated capitalism is driving our planetary ecological life support systems to hell in a hand basket and right wing political parties dominate the political landscape in the west as populations cower under the manufactured threat of Islam. Moreover, this threat would not exist were we not killing people in these countries in industrial numbers.

    Technologies are controlled by the rich for profit, and they are not being freely shared with the poor lands of the south. Moreover, as I say in my lectures, many technologies are increasing our ability as a species to destroy nature, and placing faith in other technologies is severely misplaced. We do not, for example, have the technologies to replace many critical ecological services that we are destroying. And, as I said, I see no indication whatsoever that the plutocracies care about anything other than short-term profits.

    As for Craig’s Marxist comment, its a strawman. I never said anything about Marxism. I was talking about nakedly predatory capitalism. We are all aboard the Pequod. Tainter, Redman, Wright and other historians have chronicled the collapse of past civilizations are we are headed the same way, except that we intend on taking much of the planet down with us. The evidence is all around us, but dreamers like Craig and Stu2 believe that wishful thinking and crossing their fingers will suffice. Both of them are clueless.

  75. #75 Wow
    January 22, 2016

    “#43 Wow: in December 2015 Australia had Summer”

    OK, so what was your problem with me saying it,rather than you?

    “Therefore it is not wrong of Stu 2 to say”

    This is irrelevant. *I SAID” that it was having its summer. Why am I wrong to say it????

  76. #76 Wow
    January 22, 2016

    “Look at your comment @#60.”

    I did.

    You look at your comment @#67, and then look how you landed there.

    You are demonstrating exactly why so many are completely disenchanted with what you would call ‘your side’.

  77. #77 Turboblocke
    January 22, 2016

    #43 Wow: in December 2015 Australia had Summer, prior to that it had Spring and before that it had Winter. Therefore it is not wrong of Stu 2 to say ”..according to BoM we had our wettest winter on record in 2015.”

  78. #78 Turboblocke
    January 22, 2016

    #76 wasn’t me. It was the echo from the bottom of the pit that wow’s been digging.

  79. #79 Wow
    January 22, 2016

    “#43 Wow: in December 2015 Australia had Summer,”

    Which is what I said.

    Why is it wrong when I say it, not when you say it?

    “#76 wasn’t me.”

    Yeah, I know you haven’t said why it’s wrong when I say it, not when you say it.

    Care to actually say something, or are you going to ape stupid in this method too?

    Care to excavate and use mining explosives at the bottom of that pit you’re standing on your head in?

  80. #80 Wow
    January 22, 2016

    Turbo, you DO know that you have posted 77, 70, and others, and others have posted other “echoes” in this chamber you think I’m in.

    You DO know what echoes are, don’t you?

    ech·o/ˈekō/
    noun
    a sound or series of sounds caused by the reflection of sound waves from a surface back to the listener.
    a close parallel or repetition of an idea, feeling, style, or event.
    a person who slavishly repeats the words or opinions of another.
    a play by a defender of a higher card in a suit followed by a lower one in a subsequent trick, used as a signal to request a further lead of that suit by their partner.
    a code word representing the letter E, used in radio communication.

    verb

    (of a sound) be repeated or reverberate after the original sound has stopped.
    (of an object, movement, or event) be reminiscent of or have shared characteristics with.
    send a copy of (an input signal or character) back to its source or to a screen for display.
    (of a defender) play a higher card followed by a lower one in the same suit, as a signal to request one’s partner to lead that suit.

  81. #81 Stu 2
    January 22, 2016

    None the less WOW.
    In my part of the world (which is situated in Australia) our Winter 2015 has indeed already happened.
    Our Winter 2016 will be June-August 2016.
    Even BoM has had time to report on our Winter 2015.
    In my area, BoM reports it as a wettest.

  82. #82 Wow
    January 22, 2016

    Nonetheless, stupid, you’re still in your summer.

    That you refuse to acknowledge this is why denial is only left to the retards, the deluded and the corrupt.

    That you don’t think wettest means an extreme is indication you’re not corrupt, but the options of retard or deluded are still both wide open.

  83. #83 cRR Kampen
    January 22, 2016

    “Anybody who travelled behind the Iron Curtain would know that the alternative to capitalism not only stifled intellectual and economic growth, it also produced some of the most stunningly destructive pollution the Globe has seen.” #63.

    Very true indeed. But is the middle road taboo again? Is there ONLY ideology of plunder vs communism?

  84. #84 cRR Kampen
    January 22, 2016

    “To me, this means that Australia is currently having its summer and therefore their winter is yet to come” and winter 2015 lies a couple of months behind us. Winter 2015 were the months of June, July and August 2015. I take Stu 2 to mean this and whatever I have with climate revisionism I see no problems with that statement.
    Unless, of course, northern hemisphericentricity or so.

  85. #85 Wow
    January 22, 2016

    “and winter 2015 lies a couple of months behind us.”

    Irrelevant. You all apparently have a problem when I say that you’re having your summer.

    Except that you say it with no problem.

    So what is your problem with it when I say it?

    And how does a winter being in your past mean anything? You had a winter in 1653 too. Is that somehow evidence you are wrong? Or is it irrelevant?

    If it’s irrelevant, then please look to your “response” I quoted above. And understand it is irrelevant. Then please explain why you did it, what you thought would be changed by telling me?

  86. #86 turboblocke
    January 22, 2016

    Just to remind you what you said Wow: Wow

    January 6, 2016
    “In my part of the world and according to BoM we had our wettest winter on record in 2015.”

    Australia? That would be your SUMMER, you haven’t had your WINTER yet. Dumbass.

    In mine, we’ve had the wettest, according to the UKMO.

    The USA have also been told they’ve had one of the wettest too.

    Your point? Avoiding answering BBDs question

    Apparently everyone but you, Wow, thinks that you’re telling Stu 2 that he hasn’t had a winter in 2015 when you write “Australia? That would be your SUMMER, you haven’t had your WINTER yet. Dumbass.

    Could you please explain how we’ve got it wrong?

  87. #87 Wow
    January 22, 2016

    “Just to remind you what you said Wow: ”

    Just to remind you of what you’re supposed to remind me of, turbo:

    OK, so skimmed all the moron responses, NONE OF YOU have said what your problem is with my statement, but none of you are willing to accept it in any case.

    NONE OF YOU.

    Why is that? It’s not rocket science.

    I said it’s Australia, that they are experiencing summer, that their winter is not yet there and that stupid is a dumbass.

    Could you please answer the question.

    What do you find wrong about the claim that Australia is in its summer time and that winter is yet to come?

    ESPECIALLY since you yourself say it is summer there, and have no problems when you, or anyone else other than me, says it.

    Have I discovered the naughty secret, turbo?

  88. #88 Stu 2
    January 22, 2016

    WOW.
    We most certainly have had our Winter 2015.
    It was June-August 2015.
    I used the word HAD (past tense) and the calendar year 2015 in the sentence.
    We all know it’s Summer here in Australia NOW. It’s also 2016.
    There was nothing at all incorrect about you pointing out that it’s Summer in Australia NOW.
    Nobody disagrees with that.
    The problem lies in the rest of your comment.
    It’s quite amusing to watch you attempting to prove that even though you’re ‘not right’ you are somehow ‘not wrong’.
    That type of behaviour is one of the main reasons why ‘environmental politics’ has alienated people.
    It’s amusing here and does no particular damage.
    Not so amusing in the real world.

  89. #89 Li D
    January 23, 2016

    JP #37
    This post got me wondering…
    What do polar bears drink?

  90. #90 Wow
    January 23, 2016

    STU-PID,

    You most definitely are having your summer now. It is currently January 2016. This is the SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE SUMMER.

    Nobody disagrees with that. But you CANNOT accept me saying, and I have NO IDEA why.

    That type of behaviour is one of the main reasons why your ‘environmental politics’ has alienated people and has left you labelled deniers and morons and idiots, WITH GOOD CAUSE. It is also why you’re retreating into the gaps of your remaining ignorance as everywhere else the facts are against you, but you WILL NOT change your position.

    Because you’re the opposite of a skeptic.

  91. #91 Li D
    January 23, 2016

    #88.
    Just looked it up.
    They dont drink much it seems.
    Get water from a chemical reaction
    involving fats.
    How clever is that!
    Life in all forms is wonderfully complex.
    And so perfectly adapted.
    Unless you are an extreme generalist,
    its pretty hard to cope with the rapid changes
    going on.
    One year your home is comfy Australian scrub,
    and the next its a monocultured paddock.
    Damn hard for plants and animals.

  92. #92 Jp
    Australia
    January 23, 2016

    That’s interesting Li D. I never even thought about what polar bears drink. If that question arose I would have assumed that they got their water requirements from munching on snow or ice… in winter anyway. In summer there’s probably enough meltwater around. My comment was just a facetious remark on the question of adaptation, in reference to some paper linked by our resident wanker GSW purporting to show that polar bears are so old that as a species they’ve survived many inter-glacials. I’m no scientist but it sounds very dubious. Other papers put the age of polar bears as much younger, and as Jeff and others have said even if that paper was correct it doesn’t mean that they’ll be ok this time around if the Arctic melts completely because there’s a time-scale issue.

  93. #93 Wow
    January 23, 2016

    It’s a big problem for arctic species: eating snow means you get freezing product in your internal organs and cool down your core temperature where you can’t really deal with it properly.

    It really IS, as far as the animals in there are concerned, a desert.

    The dic dic gets all the water it needs from the food it eats. Even though the stuff is pretty low in water content.

    But eating snow directly in the arctic is a bad idea.

  94. #94 Jp
    January 23, 2016

    You’re right Wow. Didn’t think about that. With below freezing temperatures outside it wouldn’t be a good idea to cool your core temperature by eating frozen stuff.

  95. #95 cRR Kampen
    January 26, 2016

    Could be deadly.
    Main cause of death in the pole regions is dehydration.

  96. #96 Wow
    January 26, 2016

    Well, yeah. But ask a plant in the snowed winter and they’d tell you snow isn’t water.

    But I’m not sure that your claim is correct. It may be the biggest single cause (but I doubt it is more than a minor margin), but other causes are huger.

    You’ll see polar bears lick the blood up. The heat of the blood melts water and even puts the temperature higher than zero a bit. But the biggest change is the melting.

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