January 2107 Open thread

Happy new year!

Comments

  1. #1 Stu 2
    January 1, 2017

    Hope you mean 2017 Tim?
    Happy New Year.

  2. #2 Wesley Dodson
    January 3, 2017

    We’re living in the future!

  3. #3 Stu 2
    January 3, 2017

    http://www.bitternsinrice.com.au/
    Yes Wesley.
    🙂
    Obviously a typo but still amusing.
    Perhaps we could pretend it’s 100 years from now and we’re all discussing the successes or failures of the many projects like this one above?
    You know – actually using our ability to collect huge amounts of information via ‘evil’ technology to actually make a difference to the well being and safety of creatures and critters.
    🙂
    Many of the commenters on this blog appear to be still stuck in the ‘gloom, doom & disaster’ paradigms of last century.
    They’re really really good at identifying trends and etc but really really bad at discussing specific solutions and management principles.
    There is a delightful Australian poem called ‘Said Hanrahan’
    that I often think about when engaging on this blog.
    🙂
    The key line is:
    ‘We’ll all be rooned, said Hanrahan, before the year is out”

  4. #4 cRR Kampen
    January 4, 2017

    “… really really bad at discussing specific solutions and management principles.”

    That’s because you still live in the past, even if you add a century.
    There’s no discussion, see. It’s easy. Quit burning fossil fuels. That’s all.

  5. #5 Wow
    January 4, 2017

    No, we’ve had that discussion.

    What else is there left to do?

  6. #6 Wow
    January 4, 2017

    When StuPid and the like rage on about how the left is doing nothing but making tribes and we’re all moving to the right because of how mean jeff has been, listen to this guy being interviewed by TYT:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MniRPwmwqk

    He’s not fooled, he’s not moved to the right, and he KNOWS how bad coal is and how real AGW is. And he doesn’t vote for Trump because he believes any of the shit he speaks, but that they’re left without any other chance, other than this fuck-all chance of trump’s claim being, for once, genuine.

  7. #7 Betula
    January 4, 2017

    Re: Wow link at #6 –

    So the host says “this is what happened in this election that the elite in Washington New York the media the Democratic Party didn’t get nic”….that is, a self proclaimed uneducated white hick.

    And now the host thinks an uneducated white hick from the south should run the Democrat party.

    And somehow this is Donald Trumps fault, (or the Russians fault) and all of a sudden Wow loves uneducated white hicks from the South…

    Hardley. are you getting any of this?

    And Wow has the nerve to ask for an explanation of this:

  8. #8 Stu 2
    January 4, 2017

    Interesting clip WoW.
    I’m not sure what your point is though?
    In general, this clip is essentially pointing out the same thing as Mundine’s article and some of the others I linked at an earlier thread.
    Ironically, it’s also essentially articulating one of Lomborg’s key messages.

  9. #9 Stu 2
    January 4, 2017

    http://www.nyunggablack.com/its-common-sense
    Just to help you out Wow,
    Here is Mundine’s article again.
    I’ve copied the intro and the conclusion for you.

    Donald Trump’s victory demonstrates that the media and commentariat are disconnected from ordinary voters.  Almost without exception, they failed to anticipate the Presidential Election outcome. And they had little influence on it. Their message that Trump was unfit for President largely ignored.
     
    Australia’s political media and commentariat are also out of touch. Listening to them you’d think Australians are preoccupied with gay marriage, offshore detention, carbon emissions and identity politics. Actually, most are preoccupied with their families, their homes, their jobs, the monthly bills and their kids’ education and job prospects. They care about the economy and national debt. They want to live in a safe society, where Australia’s way of life is valued and respected.
     
    There’s a growing disconnect between views expressed by the media and commentariat and those of many Australians, with common sense frequently dismissed as extreme, ill-informed, even bigoted.

    & the conclusions:
    Trump, Brexit and One Nation’s resurgence deliver two key lessons.
     
    Firstly, politicians who speak directly to voters about what voters care about can prevail, regardless of the media and commentariat. Smart politicians speak through the media, not to them.
     
    Secondly, if centrists are unwilling or afraid to embrace common sense views, voters will start turning to extremists and populists who do, whatever other offensive, fringe or wacky opinions they are peddling.
     
    I believe the first centrist politician who embraces common sense with plain speaking delivery, ignoring the noise of the political class and dealing honestly and firmly with issues most Australians care about, will dominate the ballot box.

    & of course Lomborg’s key messages are remarkably and ironically similar.
    So thanks again WoW for demonstrating exactly what I was trying to point out in an earlier thread and even finding a link to back it up.

    So good for you for linking the above video clip WoW.

  10. #10 Jeff Harvey
    January 5, 2017

    Stu, for once on #9 I agree with you – mostly. But the story goes a lot further than media disconnect. The media rarely talk about climate change in the context of what should be done about it. That;s because of owner-advertiser pressure. So while the media may discuss the significance of a major study like Crowther’s recent Nature paper, they will rarely if ever say that we need to cut carbon emissions because this will anger the energy corporations, travel companies etc. that advertise in the corporate media.

    With respect to Trump, he was able to reach ordinary Americans, especially in the US heartlands, who had lost their jobs through deindustrialization and outsourcing. This outsourcing is a symptom of neoliberal capitalism and deregulation, but instead of blaming the real culprit Trump lashed out at China, immigrants, refugees and migrants for the malaise. Scapegoating always works well when things are going in the wrong direction, and Trump mastered the art. The media supported Clinton because she was seen as a reliable pair of hands for the banks and the military and prison industrial complexes whereas Trump was seen as a loose wheel’; the corporate sector knew that Clinton would do their bidding but they had no idea what Trump would do. The US media is pro-establishment to the core and thus went with the reliable corporate candidate over the unknown quantity.

    Trump’s appointments to senior cabinet positions, however, reveals that he isn’t any kind of threat to the ruling corporate elites. He’s going to gut the Treasury and push massive further deregulation of the US economy to ensure that corporate profits go through the roof, but that little of this will filter down to benefit the general population. Corporate CEOs in the UK make more money in the first 2.5 days of the year than the general workforces in their companies make in an entire year. In the US its no different. Wealth is being concentrated more and more, along with power. By swinging towards right wing populists, people around the developed world are ensuring that corporate power becomes entrenched and unchallenged.

    As for Lomborg, his message ignores political reality, but cater to the ruling elites and the myth of our basic benevolence. You talke about the public not trusting the media, yet it is the same media who use Lomborg as their pin up boy. Lomborg makes fallacious arguments about ways to alleviate poverty in the south, without acknowledging that the maintenance of poverty in the resource rich south is a deliberate policy of the developed north. In his comical Copenhagen Consensus meetings he discusses how we could help the poor if only 75 billion dollars were available, when our governments are spending many times that amount on military ordinance that is being used to kill industrial numbers of people.

    Lomborg is a hack, and a bad one at that. He has used his books as platforms not to search for solutions, but to promote himself. The fact is that scientists don’t take him seriously, but the political right and corporate media do, hence why he is heavily promoted. Moreover, his message camouflages the real political agendas that are rarely discussed in the mainstream.

  11. #11 Stu 2
    January 5, 2017

    Jeff.
    It’s interesting that after reams and reams and reams of personal abuse your most recent comments are saying my heart is in the right place and you sort of agree with me?
    Mundine’s article and the other pieces I linked are not just highlighting the media’s disconnect.
    The point is , despite your assertions otherwise, the ‘elite’ being mentioned are not just the ‘corporate elite’.
    People are equally if not more disenchanted with big bureaucracy and big government and big academia.
    Also despite your assertions otherwise, we do live in countries whose governance systems are based on democratic principles and ‘the commentariat’ as Mundine calls them have been given a serious wake up call via the ballot box.
    WoW’s link above is saying the same thing.
    And ironically, even though that’s not how ‘the commentariat’ talk about him, so does Lomborg.
    As WoW also says above, it’s not because people don’t think AGW is real.
    It’s not because people don’t respect science.
    It’s not because people don’t know that there is a dark side to humanity.
    Your arguments about military budgets and obscene CEO wages are also well known, including by Lomborg.
    What is amusing to me however is that someone who is as well travelled as you claim you are is failing to understand that the bulk of humanity would view you as extremely privileged and wealthy and would swap places with you in a heartbeat.
    People in underprivileged countries are primarily victims of highly corrupt governance systems.
    The only systems that do have some degree of checks and balances are the ones you claim to despise.
    They’re not utopian but they’re the best ones we have to work with and improve.
    There is no evidence anywhere that overthrowing everything and reducing everyone to the lowest common denominator creates good outcomes for humanity or the environment.
    So Jeff.
    I think your heart is in the right place, I’ll give you that, but your touted socio-economic and political ideas are, IMHO, impractical.

  12. #12 Wow
    January 5, 2017

    It’s amazing that StuPid only sees personal abuse, it’s all he’s seeing.

    And all by people he doesn’t agree with and wants to make follow his commands.

    Because StuPid is a psychopath.

  13. #13 Wow
    January 5, 2017

    And I see you didn’t listen. Here it is again.

  14. #14 Stu 2
    January 5, 2017

    WoW.
    I did listen and did comment on that clip.
    I even congratulated you for posting it.
    Where’s your comment on the actual points made in Mundine’s article?
    So far you’ve just claimed he’s an arrogant arsehole.

  15. #15 Wow
    January 5, 2017

    “I did listen and did comment on that clip.”

    Then why post #9?

  16. #16 Stu 2
    January 5, 2017

    WoW ,
    Because of its similarities.
    Where’s your comment on Mundine’s article?
    So far you have just claimed he’s an arrogant aresehole.

  17. #17 Wow
    January 5, 2017

    “Because of its similarities.”

    Which ones in particular?

    “So far you have just claimed he’s an arrogant aresehole.”

    Because of the content of his article.

  18. #18 Stu 2
    January 5, 2017

    Which content in particular WoW?
    🙂

  19. #19 Wow
    January 5, 2017

    Which similarities, StuPid?

  20. #20 Stu 2
    January 5, 2017

    & for particulars see comment #11 where I even mention you WoW 🙂

  21. #21 Wow
    January 5, 2017

    “for particulars see comment #11”

    There’s a lot of text there, all I want to know is what the similarities were that Mundine’s bullshit was supposed to mirror.

  22. #22 Wow
    January 5, 2017

    For example, the similarity can’t be this “reconstruction” of Mundine’s work:

    “not just highlighting the media’s disconnect.”

    Because that would have to be TYT being disconnected, but from what?

  23. #23 Stu 2
    January 5, 2017

    WoW.
    So far all you’ve done is claimed that Mundine is an arrogant aresehole.
    Jeff saw the similarities.
    I see them too.
    Perhaps you need to take your blinkers off?

  24. #24 Wow
    January 5, 2017

    So far all you’ve done is avoid saying what similarities existed that made you think of reposting Mindie’s bullshit.

    This would be because when you claimed the reason for posting that bollocks was the similarities to the youtube link I provided, you were lying.

  25. #25 Wow
    January 5, 2017

    “Jeff saw the similarities.”

    Where?

    “I see them too.”

    Where?

    You’re making this all up.

  26. #26 Stu 2
    January 6, 2017

    WoW.
    Let me help you.
    The video clip, Mundine’s article, Jeff’s comments and mine are all recognising that various ‘elites’ be they corporate, govt, bureaucratic, academic, media & etc have lost touch with what the electorate really care about.
    Mundine and the ‘white trash’ guy and the host of the video clip also take that further and point out that it’s driving voters to vote for extremists and populists like Trump even though they don’t agree with some of what they advocate.
    You were also correct that it’s not because they don’t believe in AGW or don’t care about the environment.
    Hope that helps WoW?

  27. #27 Wow
    January 6, 2017

    “Let me help you.”

    Go ahead, but what you wrote wasn’t what similarities made you decide to repost Mundie’s bollocks.

    Please address that or admit that you didn’t care, you just wanted to repost the words of that streak of piss again.

  28. #28 Wow
    January 6, 2017

    “…Mundine’s article…”

    If the article merely said what you posted in that comment, then there was no reason to post Mundie again.

    If Mundie’s blogroll blather contained something different, then you are lying, again,by omission.

    Moreover, “What do you think of Mundie’s post” becomes irrelevant, since there’s absolutely no need for what you said in 26 to have come from Mundie, since the TYT video already contained what you posted there.

  29. #29 Stu 2
    January 6, 2017

    https://youtu.be/kTcRRaXV-fg
    Good for you WoW
    🙂
    It’s going here again.
    If nothing else, you’re entirely predictable.

  30. #30 Wow
    January 6, 2017

    “It’s going here again.”

    You’re going insane again? Yeah, we didn’t need you to inform us of that.

    So, you lied about the reason for posting Mundie’s bullcrap, and now you’re evading even making sense in your posts.

  31. #31 Wow
    January 6, 2017

    “Where’s your comment on Mundine’s article?”

    Here:

    He demonstrates an atrocious inability to see things outside his epistemic bubble of anti-liberal ideologies and loathing of government when it interferes with capitalism doing what it needs to make money. He ignores every counterexample and leaps straight to conclusions he wanted to make all along.

    And where reality fails to supply him with even a shred of evidence, and not even he thinks he can get away with just blank assertion, makes stuff up to fit.

  32. #32 Stu 2
    January 6, 2017

    WoW.
    Did you actually read about Mundine?
    I have posted info a couple of times.
    Look him up.
    Nyunggai Warren Stephen Mundine AO
    Report back when you find where it says he lives in an epistemic bubble of anti liberal ideologies and loathing of government when it interferes with capitalism.

  33. #33 Wow
    January 6, 2017

    “Did you actually read about Mundine?”

    Yes.

    “I have posted info a couple of times.”

    I know.

    “Look him up.”

    Do you mean lock him up? Sure he deserves it, but I have no jurisdiction. If you mean look him up, why should I bother? Is what’s written about him more interesting and relevant than the stuff he writes? I can believe it, but that’s still damned faint praise.

    “Nyunggai Warren Stephen Mundine AO”

    Arooga! Byunga byunga. Woobble rumble Boo boo!

    “Report back when you find where it says he lives in an epistemic bubble of anti liberal ideologies and loathing of government when it interferes with capitalism.”

    Uh, just above. Here on scienceblogs.

  34. #34 Betula
    January 6, 2017

    So Wow makes a claim, and then uses his claim to show that his claim is correct….

    I hate to burst your bubble Wow, but it’s just more proof you’re a retard…

  35. #35 Wow
    January 6, 2017

    Oh dear, batshit, I was asked to find where my claim was said. The retard was StuPid for asking me where that was said.

    It is, even to you, really obvious.

    Imagine how obvious it is to the non-braindamaged section of humanity?

  36. #36 Betula
    January 6, 2017

    We’ve already established that comprehension isn’t your forte….you’re wasting your time bragging about it.

  37. #37 Wow
    January 6, 2017

    No, you “think” we’ve established it. Though this is the first time you’ve thought that.

    You can’t even read

    “Report back when you find where it says he lives in an epistemic bubble of anti liberal ideologies and loathing of government when it interferes with capitalism.”

    and work out who said it.

  38. #38 Wow
    January 6, 2017

    Hey, StuPid! Betty here needs you to tell them what you asked for.

    They’re having problems.

  39. #39 Stu 2
    January 6, 2017

    There’s no typo WoW.
    I most definitely wrote LOOK him up.
    Tim however has committed an amusing typo on this particular page.
    And yes, very good, you wrote the sentence about Mundine.
    So did you find evidence that he lives in an epistemic bubble of anti liberal ideologies and loathing of government when it interferes with capitalism when you looked him up?

  40. #40 Wow
    January 6, 2017

    No typo where? The first one to mention a typo is you, StuPid.

    Yes. You said look him up.

    And why is Tim (whoever) being amusing (by what means) relevant?

    And, yes, very good, you accept that I answered your question.

    Yes, I did find that evidence. I never looked him up,though. You asked for my opinion of what he wrote, and I gave it. THEN you demand I look him up. If his writing was so worthless that I must look elsewhere for its meaning,then it was a waste of time reading it, wasn’t it.

  41. #41 Stu 2
    January 6, 2017

    WoW.
    You offered a personal opinion of Mundine the person with no evidence.
    His message is quite similar to the TYT clip.
    But it’s OK.
    You just continue tying yourself up in semantic knots if that’s what you want to do.
    As tempting as you’re trying to make it, it’s a thoroughly pointless exercise to focus on semantics, but Betula is happy to play that game with you.
    If you can find your way to look up Mundine, you may perhaps understand why his conclusions are similar to the TYT clip.

  42. #42 Stu 2
    January 6, 2017

    Oh!
    I forgot to answer your other question.
    Tim (as in Tim Lambert) has typed 2107, in bold, instead of 2017.
    It was amusing & perhaps vaguely relevant because of your comment re lock him up instead of look him up.

  43. #43 Li D
    January 6, 2017

    Good afternoon.
    May i ask a query about chart reading please.
    The chart on this rather old ( 8 months or so )
    page

    https://www.google.com.au/amp/grist.org/climate-energy/theres-a-99-chance-this-will-be-the-hottest-year-on-record/amp/

    looks at anomalies in several years by month compared
    to a baseline.
    Whats confusing to me is the huge step between
    Dec 2015 and Jan 2016.
    Dec2014 and Jan 2015 seem big too.
    Surely December should be reasonably close to January
    at any year chosen so the um, data wiggle? isnt so jumpy.
    Its not jumpy THROUGH the year.
    I could understand a small step up in one month but
    this is huge. I think im reading it wrong somehow.
    If someone whos not a denierscum could answer id
    appreciate it.
    Cheers.
    Li D
    Australia

  44. #44 Jeff Harvey
    January 6, 2017

    Notice how the quacky deniers on here always use the word ‘we’ when they really mean themselves? GSW once wrote on Deltoid that ‘We have established that Polar Bears are doing well’ when he meant that he himself believes it. The vast majorituy of researchers working with the bears have very different opinions. Now Betula uses the same dumb trick, saying ‘we have established that comprehension’…. when attacking Wow. What hge means is that he has established it.

    You gott admit, these idiots sure have hubris. They truly think that they are exceedingly clever.

    They aren’t.

  45. #45 Stu 2
    January 6, 2017

    Jeff????
    Don’t you think that perhaps WoW should also be pulled into line?????

  46. #46 Wow
    January 6, 2017

    “Whats confusing to me is the huge step between
    Dec 2015 and Jan 2016.”

    ENSO. There was a huge difference (though admittedly not in Dec) then.

    But there’s been two years with late ice in the North Pole, so we could be seeing a tipping point in Arctic polar ice.

  47. #47 Wow
    January 6, 2017

    “Notice how the quacky deniers on here always use the word ‘we’ when they really mean themselves?”

    It’s a simple way to pretend that they’re not alone, and that you have to argue against “others” who aren’t there, so if you prove THEM wrong, that’s merely because “they” aren’t here.

    It also pretends that there’s some sort of consensus for their idea.

  48. #48 Wow
    January 6, 2017

    “Tim (as in Tim Lambert) has typed 2107, in bold, instead of 2017.”

    Why was that necessary to post in your response to me? And so much later than the “offense”?

    Oh, I know, it was a “LOOK! SQUIRREL!!” moment for you. Sorry to have metaphorically pantsed you in public dear.

  49. #49 Betula
    January 6, 2017

    Wow – “It’s what we adults do when we make a claim”

    Wow’s simple way of pretending he’s not alone, and that the argument is with others who aren’t there…

    It also pretends that there is some sort of consensus of retarded adults…

  50. #50 Betula
    January 6, 2017

    Wow to Stu – “Why was that necessary to post in your response to me?”

    Because you didn’t understand it….as usual.

  51. #51 cRR Kampen
    January 6, 2017

    What else is there left to do? asked Wow, whom I’d like to remind of a song by Metallica (the title ‘Sad but True’ being but a commentary to that).

  52. #52 Wow
    January 6, 2017

    Not a lot. Really all they have left is annoy the hell out of those who were right all along,to make us as miserable to be right as they feel to be losing the fight.

    Scorched earth. Nothing more than scorched earth. Petty little pissants.

  53. #53 Betula
    January 6, 2017

    Wow, you’re miserable because it’s your life.

    Sad but true.

  54. #54 Olaus Petri
    January 6, 2017

    The resident super returd Hardley finally got something right;

    “With respect to Trump, he was able to reach ordinary Americans, especially in the US heartlands, who had lost their jobs through deindustrialization and outsourcing.”

    But got it left anyway. True enough was Trump able to reach ordninary Americans facing this development. But what most made them turn to Trump was that they finally had enough of the Hardley types that for many years, not least through MSM, been depicting ordinary American republicans as inbred and uneducated haters.

    That is not a good concept, but has been standard liberal lingo for long. In the end such a politic climate created “space” for a guy like Trump. In other word is Trump also an efftect of “Jeffies” and their abonible self gratifying hate projections.

  55. #55 Betula
    January 6, 2017

    Olaus – “they finally had enough of the Hardley types that for many years, not least through MSM, been depicting ordinary American republicans as inbred and uneducated haters”

    True. And now, here on Deltoid, they post a video of a self proclaimed hick and wish he were head of the Democrat party…
    Suddenly, they will paint themselves as the champion for the downtrodden, uneducated, American white male middle class hick from the south….because climate change will hit them the hardest.

    Classic.

  56. #56 Wow
    January 6, 2017

    Bark for your bikkit, lappers! Good boy, lappers. Bark away!

  57. #57 Wow
    January 6, 2017

    Seems like your case of denial is being destroyed day by day with ever more evidence.

    https://politics.slashdot.org/story/17/01/05/0513224/new-analysis-shows-lamar-smiths-accusations-on-climate-data-are-wrong

  58. #58 Stu 2
    January 6, 2017

    WoW @ # 48.
    I answered @ # 42.
    It was amusing and perhaps vaguely relevant because of your comment re lock him up instead of look him up.
    Why are you focusing on that rather than answering the question about Mundine @ # 39?

  59. #59 Stu 2
    January 6, 2017

    @#58.
    It’s more of the same.
    People focusing on arguing that even though they’re not right, they’re still not wrong.
    The comments at that page were interesting.

  60. #60 Stu 2
    January 6, 2017

    Sorry…@#57 not #58.

  61. #61 Wow
    January 6, 2017

    Oh dear, yet more of the same “more of the same, thanks” bollocks.

    Doesn’t work, dear. Try something else.

  62. #62 Wow
    January 6, 2017

    But I wasn’t calling it a typo. I was pointing out how much of a non sequitur your ask was.

  63. #63 Stu 2
    January 6, 2017

    http://literarydevices.net/non-sequitur/
    🙂
    Very funny WoW @#62.
    That cracked me up.
    A quick re-read of comments reveals the master of continually using non sequitur as a tool at this blog.
    That’s definitely nearly as funny as A&C.

  64. #64 Wow
    January 6, 2017

    Yup, you.

  65. #65 Stu 2
    January 6, 2017

    WoW.
    You are the gift that keeps on giving.
    Outstanding work.
    🙂
    Your link @#57 was interesting, including the comments.
    What should be done for coastal communities and environments to help manage the impacts of SLR?
    We could all keep arguing about the actual amount and the degree of anthropogenic influence but how does that actually help?

  66. #66 Wow
    January 6, 2017

    And you’re back again to the nonsequitur and the “Same old thing, thank you” bollocks.

    What part of “not working” was beyond your comprehension, dear?

    You are the moron who won’t stop being stupid. The energiser bunny of the stupid.

  67. #67 Wow
    January 6, 2017

    “We could all keep arguing about the actual amount and the degree of anthropogenic influence but how does that actually help?”

    It will stop people getting in the way of doing anything by denying there’s any need to do something, moron.

  68. #68 Betula
    January 6, 2017

    Wow – “But I wasn’t calling it a typo”

    And yet, even though it was spelled correctly you still couldn’t get it right.

    Poor Wow – “You don’t even have reading skills”

  69. #69 Stu 2
    January 6, 2017

    WoW?
    I’m not sure what you are saying @#67?
    It looks like you think the circular arguments about the extent of SLR that result in more circular arguments about everyone being ‘not wrong’ will actually result in something being done?
    I don’t think that’s working well at all.
    It’s actually encouraging more people to ‘get in the way’ IMHO.
    My question to you was really about what is that ‘something’ that needs to be done to protect coastal communities and environments from the impacts of SLR?

  70. #70 Wow
    January 6, 2017

    And what evidence makes that conclusion, StuPid?

    That you insist on circular arguments and repeating the same old crap is somehow my, or anyone else’s fault than your own?

    Tell you what, stop whining about how much is anthropogenic, because doing something about what we’re doing is irrelevant to whether you have to do anything about it, since that’s already been decided: we must do something.

  71. #71 Wow
    January 6, 2017

    So, instead of complaining about not doing something, you’ll start doing something, yes?

    Instead of arguing bout how much is anthropogenic, you’ll be doing something, yes?

    Instead of arguing with realists like Jeff, Lionel and myself, you’ll start arguing with the deniers who want to argue rather than accept something needs to be done, yes?

  72. #72 Stu 2
    January 7, 2017

    What’s the ‘something’ that ‘needs to be done’ that will assist coastal communities and environments WoW?

  73. #73 Wow
    January 7, 2017

    We won’t be allowed to do anything with deniers denying that anything needs to be done, StuPid.

  74. #74 Wow
    January 7, 2017

    And by the way, in what way is arguing and berating Jeff or Lionel the something that needs to be done that will assist coastal communities and environments?

  75. #75 Stu 2
    January 7, 2017

    WoW.
    I agree that something needs to be done for those coastal communities and environments.
    Coastal landscapes are eroding.
    What is that ‘something’ ?

  76. #76 Wow
    January 7, 2017

    You wont be able to do anything while deniers are going around pretending that there’s no such thing as AGW or that it doesn’t happen badly enough to do anything about it.

  77. #77 Wow
    January 7, 2017

    And one of the things it isn’t is badmouthing Jeff or Lionel or environmental groups. That won’t help those communities at all.

  78. #78 Stu 2
    January 7, 2017

    Let’s try this WoW.
    Betula,
    WoW keeps saying that people like you and me who belong to a group he calls ‘deniers’ are preventing something being done about coastal erosion.
    He isn’t clear about what that ‘ something that needs to be done’ is but he’s convinced it’s this tribe he calls deniers that are stopping that ‘something’.
    So I thought I might try asking you instead?
    What do you think should be done for coastal communities and environments that are vulnerable to any impacts from SLR ?
    I’m aware of some excellent engineering solutions to hold back coastal erosion. Most of Australia’s population lives on the coastal fringe, so as a country, we’re not too bad at managing issues like these.
    But I’m sure there are other ‘somethings’ that could be done.
    What do you think ?

  79. #79 Wow
    January 7, 2017

    It doesn’t matter what it is, because deniers deny there’s anything to be done, dumbass.

    And what it isn’t is berating Jeff et al. Helps those communities not at all.

    Hell, it’s not even posting here. If you want to help those communities, stop posting to deltoid and go out and do whatever it is you think you must be doing.

  80. #80 Wow
    January 7, 2017

    “I’m aware of some excellent engineering solutions to hold back coastal erosion.”

    So you’ll build 10m ASL high walls around Australia, with another several meters height to stop storm surges overtopping them?

  81. #81 Stu 2
    January 7, 2017

    http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/coasts/coastalerosionmgmt.htm
    WoW @#80.
    No.
    Here’s one piece of information from NSW.
    They don’t seem to be contemplating a 10m ASL high wall with another several metres height to stop storm surges over topping them.

  82. #82 Wow
    January 7, 2017

    No? Then how will the 10m sea level rise be prevented from affecting the lives of those coastal communities when it happens?

  83. #83 Stu 2
    January 7, 2017

    WoW.
    One of the latest scientific reports on SLR for Australia is McInnes et al 2015.
    I can’t figure out how to link it but you can Google it.
    It’s perfectly legit , peer reviewed etc and uses IPCC data.
    You can also go to Google scholar and look up papers on coastal zone erosion management.
    For Australia they are predicting mm of SLR not m.
    Where did you get your 10m figure from?

  84. #84 Wow
    January 7, 2017

    There’s a distinct lack of betty telling you that they’re OK with your penny-ante temporary fix, StuPid. Just sayin’.

    “One of the latest scientific reports on SLR for Australia is McInnes et al 2015.”

    If you don’t stop making AGW worse, SLR will only get higher. Your “help” isn’t any help unless we do something about AGW and ignore the reason for it.

  85. #85 Jeff Harvey
    January 7, 2017

    “But what most made them turn to Trump was that they finally had enough of the Hardley types that for many years, not least through MSM, been depicting ordinary American republicans as inbred and uneducated haters”.

    You mean the MSM that supported Republican Bush in his invasion of Iraq? Including the NYT and Washington Post and its illusory liberal bias? The NYT and Judith Miller simply challeled ‘intelligence’ leaked from Cheney and the Pentagon to the NYT as if it was fact withouy any critical evaluation at all. And they published it. Indeed, many Republicans loathe Trump. They just happen to loathe Clinton even more, given that she is as beholden to the corporate lobby and the banks as most of the core Republicans.

    You also mean the MSM that is either owned by or depends on corporate advertising and which supports the established order to the core? The media owned by Disney, Rupert Murdoch, General Electric, Viacom and other multinationals? You think its liberal? My God you are dumb.

    Olaus, I know that you are as thick as a plank, but even being a intellectually bereft as you are this latest vacuous remark from you takes the cake. And Betula goes along with it, revelaing more of his cognitive limitations.

    You guys couldn’t debate your way out of an outhouse. Well done for this latest empty remark.

    If you think that the

  86. #86 Jeff Harvey
    January 7, 2017

    Look like Olaus and his army of “inbred ordinary Republican Americans” are in for a shock:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/01/donald-trump-will-hurt-poor-rural-americans

    I especially like this part:

    “His choice for treasury secretary, Steve Mnuchin, was especially difficult to swallow. It is a horribly dangerous choice for poor people everywhere, including the rural, white and working class like me and my neighbors. It will hurt many of those whose support for Trump has been among the most stringent and vocal.

    According to the many Trump supporters I know, Trump won their loyalty because of his so-called outsider status and promise to not only take on, but dismantle, a corrupt, ineffectual political establishment.

    One of Trump’s most apparent and effective ways of playing up anti-establishment credentials was calling out and criticising Hillary Clinton’s ties with Wall Street bigwigs like Goldman Sachs. Despite being a billionaire himself, Trump’s lack of political experience helped enable his populist appeal. He claimed to want to save the middle class – in part by changing current tax laws that allow billionaires to pay lower taxes on their enormous paychecks. Trump singled out hedge fund managers in particular as “getting away with murder” because of the current tax laws.

    And yet Mnuchin, the man Trump has tapped to lead the Treasury, is a former Goldman Sachs banker, Hollywood film financier and hedge fund founder and manager who profited so greatly from the global financial crisis of 2008 that he was called “the foreclosure king”. Mnuchin has been widely criticized for profiting from increasing the number of foreclosures, particularly those involving reverse mortgages that are typically held by the elderly. The bank he chaired has also been accused of banking practices that discriminate against people of color.

    And yet Mnuchin, the man Trump has tapped to lead the Treasury, is a former Goldman Sachs banker, Hollywood film financier and hedge fund founder and manager who profited so greatly from the global financial crisis of 2008 that he was called “the foreclosure king”. Mnuchin has been widely criticized for profiting from increasing the number of foreclosures, particularly those involving reverse mortgages that are typically held by the elderly. The bank he chaired has also been accused of banking practices that discriminate against people of color”.

    Well there you have it. The big anti-establishment candidate handpicks people for major government jobs straight from the corporate and banking establishment.

    Looks like these ordinary Americans are as dumb as Olaus. When Trump and Co. gut the Treasury and priotitize the interests of the wealthy elites, as is already clear that they are going to do, then I loo forward to the response from the brainless meatball.

  87. #87 Betula
    January 7, 2017

    Wow – “We won’t be allowed to do anything with deniers denying that anything needs to be done”

    Looks like Wow believes the deniers are the majority in the world….the consensus, with all the control.

    Why are you telling me this now? Think of all the time I could have saved..

    With your above statement, in combination with all the time the Deltodians implied that a consensus translates to fact, and then insisting scientists would never use the word catastrophe or catastrophic, it has become quite clear you deserve to be labeled a denier…

    Well, it looks like Deltoid has destroyed itself.

    What now?

  88. #88 Betula
    January 7, 2017

    Stu – “What do you think should be done for coastal communities and environments that are vulnerable to any impacts from SLR ?”

    Well, as we have learned from Wow, it is people being labeled deniers that are actually causing the predicted future problem, and the only ones preventing the predicted future from being fixed….because they are apparently the majority (the consensus) and therefore in control.

    Perhaps If we stop using the word “denier”, the predicted problem would fix itself…

    Of course another solution would be to use our imaginations and pretend that on local levels, something is actually being done:

    http://www1.nyc.gov/office-of-the-mayor/news/370-16/onenyc-mayor-de-blasio-progress-new-coastal-resiliency-efforts-most-vulnerable

    http://www.nj.gov/dep/landuse/lu_bfm.html

    Sorry, just kidding….I learned on Deltoid that “local” doesn’t count for anything…

    I think the more appropriate question to ask would be whether or not AGW is predicted to accelerate into catastrophic AGW, which would accelerate SLR, thus requiring urgent action…

    Since we know the professional scientific community doesn’t use the words “catastrophe” or “catastrophic”, the answer to this would have to be no….

    Now, since the above statement will result in me being labeled a “denier”, that means I am in the majority (Wow made me aware of that), which means I am part of a consensus, which implies my above statement is a fact.

    I hope this helps.

  89. #89 Betula
    January 7, 2017

    I especially like this part @86 –

    “Here in the Appalachian mountains that I love, the bucolic scenery is offset by stark markers of rural poverty. Dilapidated barns, abandoned farm- and outhouses, and mobile homes. Areas in nearby small towns and communities reveal more than a few empty, bank-owned homes. This isn’t all that surprising, considering that the area I live is one of the poorest in the state of Virginia. Yet despite their relative ubiquity, I’m gobsmacked by the juxtaposition of the name Trump, synonymous with exorbitant wealth, in front of a rusting mobile home every time I see one”

    I wonder if Brook Bolen realizes what she sees didn’t happen overnight? I wonder if she realizes who has been the president the last 8 years? I wonder if she realizes Trump hasn’t taken over the Presidency yet? I wonder why Brook (a Democrat) doesn’t take issue with the Democrat Governor of Virginia? I wonder if she wants a person with no monetary experience, perhaps someone who has failed when it comes to money, in charge of the U.S. Treasury?

    But more importantly, I wonder why the great intellect Hardley is incapable of wondering about such things…

  90. #90 Wow
    January 7, 2017

    “Sorry, just kidding….I learned on Deltoid that “local” doesn’t count for anything…”

    Not if it’s global. Doing just one local area doesn’t stop the global problem.

    Funny how you learned stuff, even acknowledge it, but still eject that learning at the earliest opportunity.

  91. #91 Wow
    January 7, 2017

    “I think the more appropriate question to ask would be whether or not AGW is predicted to accelerate into catastrophic AGW, which would accelerate SLR, thus requiring urgent action…”

    Didn’t you claim it used to be warmer in the past, and sea levels higher, and no polar ice caps?

    What makes it impossible to do so now?

  92. #92 Wow
    January 7, 2017

    And in all that, still betty isn’t giving the answer the softball StuPid passed them requested.

    StuPid, all you’re going to be given by your fellow deniers is that we must stop calling them deniers, and then wait to see if this stops CO2 being a greenhouse gas, or becomes a magic shield against warming.

    Your “idea” to help a local place for a limited time, poor though it was, is not being promoted by betty or any other denier. Either you’re going to have to pay for that yourself, or you’re not going to get it done at all.

  93. #93 Olaus Petri
    January 7, 2017

    No Jeffie dear, I ment the likes of you, ergo exactely what I wrote. You hate and smear based only on your own prejudices and massive need to feel above others.

    You are probably the most intolerant and hating human being I have ever come across.

    And where did you get from that I was pro Trump? I’m not, but I know this is too difficult for you to grasp, haunted as you are by your invented reality of good and evil, but explaining why Trump won isn’t synonomous with supporting him.

    And since when became the Guardian capable of analysing American politics right of the left? Its better than you, but that doesn’t say a lot. ?

  94. #94 Wow
    January 7, 2017

    Who’s a good boy, then, lappers. Bark at the man, bark bark!

  95. #95 Betula
    January 7, 2017

    Wow – “Didn’t you claim it used to be warmer in the past, and sea levels higher, and no polar ice caps?”

    Nope.

    “What makes it impossible to do so now?”

    Ask the scientists who don’t use the word catastrophe…

  96. #96 Betula
    January 7, 2017

    Wow – “Bark at the man, bark bark!”

    Bow Wow! Bow Wow!

    How’s that?

  97. #97 Betula
    January 7, 2017

    Wow – “Your “idea” to help a local place for a limited time.

    Stu, just think, all the localities in the world that are working on coastal solutions are doing so because of your idea.

    Congratulations, even Wow can see you have made a difference…

  98. #98 Wow
    January 7, 2017

    Ah, so you’re going for “I never looked at anything”.

    So an uninformed opinion is worthless.

  99. #99 Betula
    January 7, 2017

    Wow – “Ah, so you’re going for “I never looked at anything”.

    This would be so much easier if you were coherent.

  100. #100 Stu 2
    January 7, 2017

    Yes Betula.
    I realise WoW can’t see it, but there is indeed plenty of evidence of local studies and projects that are making a difference.
    If he actually bothered to look at some of the suggested info he would also discover they have been costed and people are paying for them.
    I’m still wondering where WoW got his 10 m figure from?
    It’s also ironic that he posted the link about SLR yet he’s not interested in looking at practical management of coastal erosion.
    It’s a common theme here.
    I’ve often been told that It’s a waste of time working on local and regional scales.
    Ironically, a lot of the ‘evidence’ that is supplied are in fact local and regional studies.
    Jeff in particular appears to have a complete abhorrence of local and regional land and water management projects.
    And I would still like to know where WoW got that 10m SLR figure from?
    As I explained @#83, the predictions from studies are in mm not m.

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