January 2107 Open thread

Happy new year!

Comments

  1. #1 Wow
    January 7, 2017

    So, there’s no need to stop it getting worse because you two morons want to treat the symptoms, not the cause…

    Right…

    And batshit betty and StuPid think that one of the symptoms that needs addressing is being called “deniers”.

  2. #2 Wow
    January 7, 2017

    Tell you what, posting to deltoid isn’t building your levees. Go out and do it.

  3. #3 Betula
    January 7, 2017

    Wow – “Tell you what, posting to deltoid isn’t building your levees. Go out and do it”

    Levees in coastal towns are constantly being worked on by locals…
    I think the best thing for you would be to unplug your computer so you can get rid of the guilt that is obviously tormenting you…
    Good luck with that.

  4. #4 Stu 2
    January 7, 2017

    WoW.
    That’s yet another theme that permeates this blog.
    It’s not a case of one or the other.
    The same applies in your medical analogy.
    In medicine both are treated and for equally good reasons.
    I’m still wondering where you sourced that 10M figure for Australia’s SLR that would require a 10M + wall all around Australia?
    And I don’t live on the coast WoW, but I’m fully aware of what is being done and what can be done.
    I work on other issues related to NRM that are not connected to the specific issue of coastal erosion but are nonetheless also very important.
    And yes Betula, there is quite a bit of work being done in this space all around the world by locals.
    It’s not just levees, there are plenty of other projects and measures being implemented to protect coastal communities and environments from coastal erosion and if WoW did unplug himself from his computer and took his blinkers off he might be able to see it too.

  5. #5 Wow
    January 7, 2017

    “That’s yet another theme that permeates this blog.
    It’s not a case of one or the other.”

    That’s your fault, stupid.

    You gave “erosion protection” but never anything else.

  6. #6 Wow
    January 7, 2017

    It;s also your fault in that you keep posting here JAQing off with “How is that helping the reindeer?” “How is that helping the Indonesians?” “How is that helping the pine martin?”.

    If you are so desperate to help them that anything that isn’t “helping X” shouldn’t be done, then you need to stop doing it.

    YOU, because YOU are the one here JAQing off and asking people “How is that helpingX ?”. YOU think that.

  7. #7 Wow
    January 7, 2017

    Of course, it may be you’re not thinking that.

    But in that case, your claims “How is it helping X?” is blather you don’t care about.

    So either way, you negate your own rhetoric.

  8. #8 Stu 2
    January 7, 2017

    The same also applies to vetinary science and animal husbandry and agricultural science and virus outbreaks and etc WoW.
    And can you please let me know where you sourced that 10m of SLR for Australia from?

  9. #9 Stu 2
    January 7, 2017

    Jeff @#85 & @#86 previous page.
    How sad.
    You’be reverted back into arguing that ‘ordinary’ people are just dumb and just being led around by the media.
    That’s not what I’d call a democratic attitude.
    Further, Trump won the vote from rural and regional America.
    That demographic are far from dumb.
    They’re extraordinarily tough and resilient.
    I think you need to get out and about some more?
    You’re also back into employing revisionism.
    The media (whoever they’re beholden to) overwhelmingly predicted that Trump could not possibly win.
    The media in the UK also overwhelmingly predicted incorrectly re Brexit.

  10. #10 Stu 2
    January 8, 2017

    I found this amusing little description of misanthropy a while back.
    😉

    “If you are a somewhat intelligent and rational person, you will eventually come to the realization that humanity is fucked up and they all deserve to be wiped from the face of the Earth for their stupidity.”

    Sound familiar????

  11. #11 Betula
    January 8, 2017

    Buy does she have Hardley pegged…

    “Research and other professional activities are professionally rewarded only if they are channeled in certain directions approved by a politicized academic establishment — funding, ease of getting your papers published, getting hired in prestigious positions, appointments to prestigious committees and boards, professional recognition, etc”

    http://www.michiganstandard.com/47243/georgia-tech-climatologist-judith-curry-resigns-over-the-craziness-in-the-field-of-climate-science/

  12. #12 Betula
    January 8, 2017

    Let’s take a closer look at this:

    Hardley from Dec. thread –
    “The paper is very important in its implications for climate change. Otherwise it would not have made it into Nature, which rejects 93% of manuscripts”

    My response from Dec. thread –
    “So if a manuscript implies a different predicted future climate scenario, is it automatically rejected? Is that why 93% are rejected?”

    Now Judith Curry’s statement (again) –
    “Research and other professional activities are professionally rewarded only if they are channeled in certain directions approved by a politicized academic establishment — funding, ease of getting your papers published, getting hired in prestigious positions, appointments to prestigious committees and boards, professional recognition, etc”

    Looks like I have you pegged like she has you pegged and you know it Hardley….time to fall back on the dunning-kruger / you are great defense. It may give you temporary relief Hardley, but it will always bother you that I know what you’re really all about…

  13. #13 Stu 2
    January 8, 2017

    An interesting article Betula.
    I understand JC’s dilemma.
    Especially her concern about the up and coming scientists related to her field.
    Environmental politics (aka ‘environmentalism’) and therefore, very unfortunately, many of the ‘environmental sciences’ have got themselves into a bit of an untenable position especially via public and private funding.
    Instead of working cooperatively with other depts in academia and in govt they instead focus on competing for funding and political attention.
    Passionate young people who do in fact really care about what they do get caught up in it all the negative rhetoric.

  14. #14 Christopher H
    January 8, 2017

    Here’s Betula at it again.

    Papers with important implications make it into Nature. That’s what Hardley said, with the particular case – papers with implications for climate change – applying to the particular paper. Now, after various people making failed attempts to show that the paper really didn’t have important implications, Betula is back with his slur and with Judith Curry’s.

    But Hardley said, and reality supports, only a requirement that papers have important implications. There’s never been a requirement that the important implications tend to a particular outcome.

    When Betula hints at ‘different’ prediction being ‘automatically rejected’ he is based on nothing. When Curry asserts ‘directions approved by a politicized academic establishment’ she, too, is based on nothing.

    Betula has nothing pegged, Curry has nothing pegged … and Hardley knows it. So do lurkers like me, however rarely we comment.

  15. #15 Jeff Harvey
    January 8, 2017

    Thanks Chris H. I know that there are lurkers here and that the overwhelming majority don’t support Betula’s kindergarten level understanding of science or scientific publishing. He makes things up on the spot. I will ignore Stu’s response because it is not worthy of one. .

    Curry is full of shit and most scientists know it. She hasn’t done much of anything worthy over the past 10 years in terms of her output and she is now reduced to making slurs suggesting that scientific papers must have pre-determined pro-AGW views to be published.

    PROVE IT. The fact is that most scientists agree over the causes of GW, and that this is supported by the vast majority of empirical evidence. JC and her army of idiotic followers like Betula are probably upset that more Flat Earth papers are not published in the major scientific journals as well. The reason is because there no evidence that the world is flat and about 0.0001% of scientists (or less) believe it. Nature probably receives a manuscript with data countering AGW theory once every 5-10 years and its rejected either after peer-review or before because the science in it is poor.

    Its so easy for JC and her worshippers to make a claim of bias without a shred of proof. As Christopher said, neither Betula or JC has anything pegged and they both fucking well know, it.

  16. #16 Jeff Harvey
    January 8, 2017

    As an addendum, Curry is soon being pout out to pasture it appears. She is leaving her current post, which will give her fan base a chance to swoon even more over her vacuous musings. She testified a couple of years ago before a senate hearing on climate change in which she banged on about the hiatus that never was (she’s looking even more daft since the last three years are the warmest in recorded history, 2016 by far). She has hardly produced any papers the past few years and is left on the outside sniping away at the mainstream with unsubstantiated and unproven shit like the comment Betula copy-pasted.

    Betula seems to think he is scoring points here. As Christopher said, he couldn’t put a puck in an open net. He’s biased, ignores and/or doesn’t understand the prevailing scientific evidence and thus sides with the academic fringe in promulgating conspiracy theories. What a quack.

  17. #17 Jeff Harvey
    January 8, 2017

    Curry resigns – or was booted out. She morphed from a sceptic to a full blown denier, and wallowed in the adoration of her minions on her blog as well as keeping company with vile people like Marc Morano and others. Its possible to count climate scientists who are AGW deniers on one hand. Curry is a dinosaur. As I said, hardly published anything over the past 10 years and spent clearly too much time on her blog.

    99% of climate scientists won’t miss her. Now she can run her company and hobnob with her right wing shills in government to her hearts content.

  18. #18 Li D
    January 8, 2017

    P2 #9
    ” They’re extraordinarily tough and resilient.”
    Hahahahahahahaha
    Id put pretty much any kid from
    Niger or Cambodia, urban or rural,
    up against a rural Trump voter in the
    toughness and resilient stakes.
    The idjits would probably cry if mains power stopped for 72 hours.

  19. #19 Li D
    January 8, 2017

    P1 #46
    Thanks for reply.
    Im not totally convinced by your answer but
    you could well be right.
    The chart i linked to looks so odd.

  20. #20 Wow
    January 8, 2017

    LiD, look at the link I gave on the last page.

    Voting for Trump isn’t the same thing as a “Trump Voter”, in the same way as a feminist isn’t the “Feminist” (who is the one who laughs at the idea of men being exterminated, etc), or a Muslim isn’t a “Muslim” (the one who beheads people on webcam).

    I point this out because there’s a need to make sure that we use the terms perjoratively for those whose actions deserve perjoration, and not those who did an act that, even though really dumb, was not entirely without reason.

    Trump Voter is the one who REALLY thinks that trump is going to make “America Great Again”, REALLY thinks that Hilary should be in jail.

    A number of Trump voters (note the lowercase V) would have PREFERRED to vote for Bernie Sanders, but was denied the chance by the pick of Hilary. And remember, the MSM was obsessed over demonising “the left” and threw only softballs at the right for years, skewing the voting public’s perception into “Well, they’re each as bad as each other”.

    Don’t forget too, the polls put Hilary about 5% ahead of where she eventually ended up when the error bar in the polls were 3%. Remember too that most people voted Hilary. And remember that the difference between H and T was about 80,000 votes, if they occurred in the right states.

    Trump Voters’ actions define their just demonisation. They’re a (possibly) small subsection of those who voted Trump. And the media helped make them both look just as bad, and many votes went to Trump on a toss of a coin.

    If you voted for Trump and are beginning to regret it, you’re not a Trump Voter.

    If you voted for Trump but are worried, yet hoping it all works out, because the Senate is more powerful than the President, you’re not a Trump Voter.

    If you’re still gagging for a mexican paid wall around the USA, you’re a Trump Voter.

    PS Apparently Mexico are going to be contracting out to Trump to build that wall, paid at the end. And Trump has shown how to manage the finances in THAT situation. Scrape up the $10Bn, guys. It’s a comin’ out o’ your pocket!

  21. #21 Betula
    January 8, 2017

    Chris – “So do lurkers like me”

    I’ll take Judith Curry over a Deltoid lurker thank you….

  22. #22 Betula
    January 8, 2017

    Hardley – “Thanks Chris H.”

    Lappers, Bow Wow! Bow Wow!

  23. #23 Betula
    January 8, 2017

    Hardley – “Nature probably receives a manuscript with data countering AGW theory once every 5-10 years”

    Right. Because there’s no funding.
    Thanks for using your brain for once…

  24. #24 Betula
    January 8, 2017

    Hardley – “As Christopher said, he couldn’t put a puck in an open net”

    Only he never said that. And as a scientist, you should ask questions without assuming an answer….how big is the net?, how far away is the shot?, how rough is the ice?…and on.

    Remember, you’re the scientist and I have to teach you these things.

  25. #25 Betula
    January 8, 2017

    Hardley – “99% of climate scientists won’t miss her”

    She’s one of the 99%…so you’re saying she will miss herself?

    Genius.

  26. #26 Betula
    January 8, 2017

    Wow – “would have PREFERRED to vote for Bernie Sanders, but was denied the chance by the pick of Hilary”

    Because the system was rigged against him numbnuts:

    “further evidence the DNC broke its own charter violations by favoring Clinton as the Democratic presidential nominee, long before any votes were cast”

    “More votes were cast for Clinton, but they were cast at the behest of a Democratic Party that downplayed her shortfalls to the extent that Sanders not only had to run against Clinton but also against the entire Democratic Establishment”

    http://observer.com/2016/07/wikileaks-proves-primary-was-rigged-dnc-undermined-democracy/

    Wow – “Remember too that most people voted Hilary”

    What does that have to do with anything? Learn how and why the system works idiot…

    Wow – “If you voted for Trump and are beginning to regret it”

    Then you’re a moron, because he hasn’t even been sworn in yet.

    Wow – “Scrape up the $10Bn, guys. It’s a comin’ out o’ your pocket”

    All of a sudden you are concerned what comes out of the pocket of greedy U.S. citizens that have plundered the resources of undeveloped nation?

    How magnanimous of you!

  27. #27 Stu 2
    January 8, 2017

    WoW.
    So essentially you’re arguing that voters (small v ) decided on the lesser of 2 evils?
    Could you please let me know where you sourced your 10M of SLR for Australia?
    Jeff.
    Great demonstration of ‘revisionism’ re your comments about JC.
    If you actually read what she said rather than reconstructing it, it’s actually that sort of behaviour that was one of the reasons she has made her decision.
    Li D
    I agree that kids in Cambodia and Nigeria would be tough and resilient.
    Apart for the fact that kids in those countries don’t vote in America, it still doesn’t change the fact that Jeff has reverted to calling ‘ ordinary’ people dumb.

  28. #28 Stu 2
    January 8, 2017

    & Li D.
    Ironically, in rural and regional areas in America, there are areas where people are off the grid.
    Many others have learned to just put up with frequent power outages.
    How about the enormous sooking that went on in SA when the power went down recently?
    From which demographic/s did that sooking mostly come from?
    Most of the regional/ rural areas just got in with it because they cop it quite often anyway.
    But of course, no one in countries like the US or AUS like it when they have no power.

  29. #29 Stu 2
    January 8, 2017

    http://www.cfanclimate.net/
    JC writes that she is going to focus on this type of work.
    I’m sure those farmers in Bulgaria would be very interested in the Agricultural section and the research into improving local and regional seasonal forecasting.

  30. #30 Betula
    January 8, 2017

    Stu,
    The bright side is, Hardley will be happy to know that the Netherlands agricultural forecast looks good…

    “Various effects of climate change can already be observed in the Netherlands. Some of these effects are positive, such as increases in agricultural productivity”

    “Climate change and its subsequent impacts are expected to continue in the future. Because of its geographical location, these changes may present opportunities for the Netherlands, particularly in the areas of agriculture and tourism”

    “At the current rate, climate change impact appear manageable for the Netherlands, because most of the effects are expected to be limited – thus allowing time to adapt.”

    http://www.pbl.nl/en/publications/the-effects-of-climate-change-in-the-netherlands-2012

    Congratulations Hardley, looks like your lectures in the Netherlands have resulted in creating some positive climate change scenarios on a regional level….you see, you have made a difference!

  31. #31 Stu 2
    January 8, 2017

    Very interesting Betula.
    Willem Ligvoet, Jelle Van Minnen & Ron Franken all work for the environmental assessment agency and/or the Dept of Water Ag and Food.
    Good to see that level of cooperation occurring in the Netherlands.
    Much better way to go IMHO.
    JC wants to work cooperatively with others like that as well.

  32. #32 Jeff Harvey
    January 9, 2017

    Unfortunately for Holland, the country depends almost exclusively on externalities and on the condition of ecosystems elsewhere in the world. The country imports the vast majority of its capital from elsewhere, as most ecosystems in this country have been significantly altered.

    So, unlike Stu2, who would find anything interesting, the report you cited Betula means bugger all. The winds carry no passports. The Dutch economy would collapse in no time at all if these externalities were impeded or damaged in a warming world.

    As an addendum, the government here is far to the right (VVD). The Environment Minister here thinks that fenced-in fields with cattle grazing is a ‘natural landscape’. Given that his county is vastly overpopulated, and that natural ecosystems have long been eliminated, that is hardly surprising. If the rest of the world consisted of similar ‘natural landscapes’, then Homo sapiens along wqith much of nature would already be extinct.

    This reflects the absolute level of ignorance amongst the political class who have never been near a science lecture in their lives. They are lawyers, bankers etc. but not scientists.

    My God you guys are stupid. Why I bother with his sandbox level discourse with you idiots is a mystery.

  33. #33 Jeff Harvey
    January 9, 2017

    ““Nature probably receives a manuscript with data countering AGW theory once every 5-10 years”

    Right. Because there’s no funding”.
    PROVE IT YOU IDIOT.

    The reason is that the data don’t support the arguments of deniers. That’s why you can count the prominent researchers who deny AGW on one hand. Research funds test hypotheses. These are either accepted or rejected. Betula seems to think that grants fund pro-AGW research. With not a scintilla of evidence to support it. He makes it up on the spot because it fits in with his world view.

    Betula, every post you make makes you look more of an idiot. Keep going.

  34. #34 Jeff Harvey
    January 9, 2017

    99% of climate scientists won’t miss JC Betula. Are you that stupid? The 99% are those who think she’s a shill. She’s a fucking hypocrite, that is for sure. She rails on against the politicization of science and yet she’s delighted to be invited by Ted Cruz to testify with another asshole, Mark Steyn, who has never studied climate science in his life, at a Congressional hearing. She’s happy to be interviewed in an appalling film, Climate Hustle, by Marc Morano, an avowed far right Republican who has worked for Rush Limbaugh, amongst others.

    JC is the pin-ip girl for debiers because she says what they want to believe. But since she hardly has done any worthwhile science in tghe past several years, I am sure that now she can appease her fan base, people like Betula, who are as dumb as planks but who believe in UN-mediated left wing conspiracies to push the AGW line. Betula, Olaus and others who push this bullshit have absolutely no basic education in relevant fields, but they support a tiny minority of deniers and shills, many who are on the corporate payroll. By doing so they deride the views of the vast majority of climate scientists.

    Why would semi-literate clowns do this? BECAUSE THEIR VIEWS ARE POLITICALLY DRIVEN. Why the fuck don’t they just come out and say it? Its obvious.

  35. #35 Jeff Harvey
    January 9, 2017

    Betula to Chris: “I’ll take Judith Curry over a Deltoid lurker thank you”

    Chris would respond:””And I” take the views of >95% of the climate science community and every major National Academy and scientific organization on Earth over the views of one lonely outsider, thank you”.

  36. #36 Betula
    January 9, 2017

    Hardley channeling Chris – “And I” take the views of >95% of the climate science community”

    Again, Curry’s view is the same as that of the >95% you are referring to..

    So you agree with Curry and not Chris…only since you are putting words in Chris’s mouth you are suggesting you disagree with Chris and not Curry.

    Remember, you’re the scientist.

  37. #37 Jeff Harvey
    January 9, 2017

    I just reflectred on that Dutch government link that Beula copy-pasted. It’s so profoundly simple and yet Betula cannot see why. Neither can Stu2. The word ‘externalities’ is clearly alien to them. Birds of a feather…

    I wonder if the Nepalese government has produced a similar document saying how it will easily adapt to climate change. Most glaciers in the Himalayas are disappearing at a terrifying rate, but heck, they can adapt once their major source of freshwater is gone. Or let’s look at India, which depends on water from the Himalayas for multiple purposes. I am sure they will also adapt once their rivers begin to go dry.

    Or how about many of the smalll Pacific Islands being slowly inundated by rising sea levels? Heck, they will adapt to I expect by rapidly evolving traits like Kevin Costner in ‘Waterworld’.

    And what about collapsing ecosystems and fraying food webs and an increase in extinction rates and the loss of vital ecological services like water purification, pollination, nutrient cycling etc. as a result of warming and other anthropogenic stresses? These of course were totally ignored by the Dutch study, which instead focussed on abiotic effects. Rising sea levels, heat waves and heavier individual rainfall events linked with flooding and other threats.

    I need say no more. The deniers on Deltoid don’t understand basic environmental science. They are too wrapped up in their adoration of free markets and for-profit capitalism and their wonderful plutocratic systems while abhoring the role of the government in the economy to acknowledge externalities. Few countries on Earth are more dependent on happenings outside of their own country than the Netherlands. Yet Betula and Stu think that we here live in an isolated bubble.

    As I said, kindergarten level discourse. I told a colleague about it at lunch and they laughed both with me and at me. They asked me why I waste my time on ignorant people whose understanding of the world is so utterly simple. It was a very good question. Perhaps I do it for the many lurkers who may read this blog but don’t bother to write in. For sure, I don’t do it to learn about science. Betula wouldn’t understand basic science if it hit him in the face.

  38. #38 Jeff Harvey
    January 9, 2017

    “Again, Curry’s view is the same as that of the >95% you are referring to”

    Bullshit. Curry downplays the A in GW. She claims there is a hiatus. She is an AGW denier. She puts up know-nothing shills like Susan Crockford on her blog. Et al. ad nauseum.

  39. #39 Jeff Harvey
    January 9, 2017
  40. #40 Betula
    January 9, 2017

    Hardley – “wonder if the Nepalese government has produced a similar document”

    Since we are talking about the Netherlands, why would the Netherlands Environmental Agency produce a document about Nepal?

  41. #41 Betula
    January 9, 2017

    Hardley – “They asked me why I waste my time on ignorant people whose understanding of the world is so utterly simple.”

    Ahh…the imaginary “they”. Wow explains it best…

    “It’s a simple way to pretend that they’re not alone, and that you have to argue against “others” who aren’t there, so if you prove THEM wrong, that’s merely because “they” aren’t here”

  42. #42 Betula
    January 9, 2017

    Hardley – “She is an AGW denier”

    Yet, she says she is part of the >95%….interesting.

  43. #43 Betula
    January 9, 2017

    Some of Hardley’s gaffes –

    “I witnessed climate change first hand”

    “read, re read and re-re read” an article about a paper the co-author says don’t read too much into…

  44. #44 Betula
    January 9, 2017

    Hardley – “Or how about many of the smalll Pacific Islands being slowly inundated by rising sea levels”

    What is the current rate of sea level rise around the pacific islands and what percent of that number is a direct result of man made causes?

    What actions can be taken to affect what percent of that rise over what period of time?

    If the current rate were, say, 2mm a year, and assuming that rate were to continue, how many years would it take to “inundate” an island, say 6 feet above sea level?

    Are there any islands in the pacific that have increased in land mass recently? If so, what percent of that increase is due to man made causes?

    Thanks for being the scientist.

  45. #45 Betula
    January 9, 2017

    Hardley – “She claims there is a hiatus”….”She is an AGW denier”

    yet, the IPCC talked about a “hiatus”…

    IPCC – the hiatus is attributable, in roughly equal measure, to a decline in the rate of increase in effective radiative forcing (ERF) and a cooling contribution from internal variability (expert judgment, medium confidence).

    Hardley conclusion – The IPCC is made up of “deniers”

    Remember, you are the scientist.

  46. #46 Wow
    January 9, 2017

    “Betula to Chris: “I’ll take Judith Curry over a Deltoid lurker thank you””

    Problem is that Chris, as a deltoid lurker, knows much more about climate science than Judith does.

    Which is most of the reason why she’s out.

    The other part is almost entirely so she can cash in on denier fanbases.

  47. #47 Wow
    January 9, 2017

    “Bullshit. Curry downplays the A in GW. ”

    And over plays EVER “uncertainty”, even if she has to make some up, but, and this is where she shows her lack of expertise, only one way: the uncertainties are ONLY evidence we need to wait, not that we need to hurry up.

  48. #48 Wow
    January 9, 2017

    “and yet she’s delighted to be invited by Ted Cruz to testify ”

    She got paid for that. Follow the money.

    And adulation from deniers that she was denied from people who use their brains.

  49. #49 Wow
    January 9, 2017

    “Why would semi-literate clowns do this? BECAUSE THEIR VIEWS ARE POLITICALLY DRIVEN. Why the fuck don’t they just come out and say it?”

    For the same reason fish don’t say it’s wet outside today.

  50. #50 Betula
    January 9, 2017

    Shorter Wow – “Non talking fish are politically motivated deniers!”

    Good stuff.

  51. #51 Stu 2
    January 9, 2017

    http://www.pbl.nl/en/aboutpbl/employees/jelle-van-minnen
    Jeff @# 32.
    Here is info on one of the authors.
    He’s definitely not a banker, lawyer etc, he definitely has been near a science lecture..
    However I do agree that far too many of the ‘political class’ have little to no clue about how the real world operates.
    I found your comment about cattle in fields a little odd.
    Are you claiming that there’s something wrong with grazing cattle in the Netherlands?
    WoW @#48
    Is there something wrong with being paid for your work?
    Aren’t you and Jeff paid for whatever it is you do?
    And please.
    Can you let me, plus all the lurkers that you and Jeff are so concerned about, where you sourced that 10M of SLR for Australia from?
    If any of these Lurkers are from Australia, they need to be informed don’t they?

  52. #52 Stu 2
    January 9, 2017

    https://www.hollandtradeandinvest.com/key-sectors/agriculture-and-food
    It looks like the Dutch aren’t doing too bad a job in agriculture.
    Maybe the Nepalese could learn something from them?

  53. #53 Stu 2
    January 9, 2017

    &@#37
    I am aware of the word and the definition of ‘ externalities’.
    Unfortunately, as per usual, the focus is almost entirely on:
    a) How to tax the positive ones &
    b) How to charge for the negative ones.
    WoW has a point when he claims ‘follow the money’ and his capitilisation of the claim about POLITICAL VIEWS.
    The concept of ‘externalities’ has been hijacked by politics of all colours and flavours to create ‘revenue’.
    Depending on which team you barrack for only dictates a mindset about how that revenue gets distributed (aka wasted) by all those clueless ‘elites’ be they political, academic, media, bankers, lawyers & etc.
    It also encourages that totally unproductive rivalry in govt and academic departments as they compete for funding and attention that JC alluded to.
    It’s a pity, because the basic theory about impacts is essentially scientifically and economically valid.

  54. #54 Stu 2
    January 9, 2017

    I should’ve put a third focus.
    c) assign all perceived risk & all perceived blame associated with ‘negative externalities’ onto ‘ordinary’ people….definitely not into the management….regardless of which management class it is.

  55. #55 Lionel A
    January 10, 2017

    A reminder of what has really been happening in social-politics and how we will see more of such in the months to come:

    The more despotic a regime becomes, the more it creates a climate of fear that transforms into terror. At the same time, it invests tremendous energy and resources in censorship and propaganda to maintain the fiction of the just and free state.

    More here.

    Oppression allows suppression, suppression of truth especially that truth which threatens the revenue stream and by extension power of the regime.

    The manipulation of people’s thoughts are clearly visible throughout the threads here, more evidence will drop in here in ….one…two…three…

  56. #56 Lionel A
    January 10, 2017

    Some of Hardley’s gaffes –

    “I witnessed climate change first hand”

    So writes the pissant distorting Jeff’s message, again.

    Betula’s gaff – linking to a dead video (at #42 in case he cannot remember). There have been many more gaffs from this lug-worm.

  57. #57 Betula
    January 10, 2017

    Lionel – “So writes the pissant distorting Jeff’s message, again”

    Here’s what you call “distorting”…

    Hardley – “On our trip we experienced climate change at first hand”

    Hardley – “In my work as an ecologist I work on shifting zones, and here I could see it in real.”

    Hardley – “As far as first hand goes, I’d need to look into the soil. But given I was there in winter (a warm winter at that), of course I can’t describe things first hand”

    So it appears Lionel is distorting the meaning of “distorting””…..Deltoid at it’s finest.

  58. #58 Betula
    January 10, 2017

    Betula’s gaffe – linking to a dead video (at #42 in case he cannot remember).

    It was active when I posted it dipshit….so now you’re “distorting” the definition of a “gaffe”..

  59. #59 Lionel A
    January 10, 2017

    No @r$hoh!£, it is you distorting things once again. Jeff certainly did see evidence for climate change from the movement in range of species, including arachnids. Selective quoting, which you repeat in your last, is a trick ‘The Plimer’ used and he was a piece of work too.

    That’s it, no more on this!

  60. #60 Jeff Harvey
    January 10, 2017

    Given that Betula belongs in a padded cell, I honestly feel that the best thing we can do here is let this loon rant away at the screen on Deltoid. He clearly doesn’t have much better to do. Does this guy really even have a job? Seems like the first thing he does in the morning is log into Deltoid.

    In his cell we’ll give him a pin up of his poster girl, Judith Curry, along with a list of her many gaffes. And there are lots of them. The hiatus that never was; defending a report (the Wegman report) she admitted later that she had never read; arguing that there is too much politics in climate science while being happy to appear before Congress and spew out nonsense when invited by a clown like Ted Cruz or appear in an abominable fim by Rush Limbaugh’s news hound Marc Morano; and numerous other mistakes corrected by Schmidt, Annan and others. She hasn’t published much in the past few years, either.

    In his several years of spewing vitriol on Deltoid I recall Betula only on 2 occasions actually delving into actual science: once with his deer/wild turkey/coyote comment, which alerted me right away as to the level of his understanding of population and conservation ecology (meaning non existent), and once to try and correlate conditions in greenhouses (high C02) with compleax adaptive systems (he didn’t explicitly say complex adaptive systems because he’s much too thick to understand that concept).

    That’s it. Aside from that Betula has played the amateur psychologist, spending most of his efforts trying – and failing – to make a big point out of comments his critics are making. He’s got a couple of fans on here and they must stoke his ego. Given that I might as well be debating science with an amoeba, I think that it’s time to leave him to inhaling wood chips from the trees he is pruning.

  61. #61 Wow
    January 10, 2017

    “So writes the pissant distorting Jeff’s message, again.”

    As far as “betty” knows, they weren’t. After all, betty denies reality and inserts what they WANT to be true in its place.

    Because, well, betty is batshit crazy.

  62. #62 Wow
    January 10, 2017

    “Given that Betula belongs in a padded cell”

    The inmates complained about having such a batshit loon in their midst, making them look bad.

  63. #63 Lionel A
    January 10, 2017

    It was active when I posted it dipshit….so now you’re “distorting” the definition of a “gaffe”..

    There is no proof it was, so who is the dipshit now? There we are again, a lack of appreciation of reality.

    And Crazy Curry backing out because of the crazy that she helped manufacture. Seriously, what we are looking at here is a mediocre researcher who happened, for whatever reason, to back the wrong side of the truth and try to muddy the waters. Curry is very adept, if that is the correct word, at producing meandering bafflegab. Now that mediocre scientist is miffed by how other scientists treat her, by ignoring largely, many of whom risk their lives and limbs in the field, boots on the ground, whilst she criticised them from the safety of an armchair or lectern. She has made her bed, her standard of academic behaviour continues with an ever decreasing spiral of decline reflective of that of Arctic sea ice, that latter revealed by the efforts of boots on the ground.

    Of course Fox loves to give these people like Curry a platform because Fox likes ‘Twisted Truths’.

    Carlson recently demonstrated his partisanship over the 98% consensus and probably lack of understanding of the true meaning of that – that latter being a common factor with such media BS artists.

  64. #64 Betula
    January 10, 2017

    Lionel – “Jeff certainly did see evidence for climate change from the movement in range of species, including arachnids”

    Only now he admits it “may” have been weather – my how the ̶s̶t̶o̶r̶i̶e̶s̶ climate at Deltoid keeps changing…

    Hardley – “Alternatively, I don’t mind stationg that it may be due to a warm winter and not AGW at all”

    Classic.

  65. #65 Betula
    January 10, 2017

    Lionel – “That’s it, no more on this!”

    Sounds familiar – Sort of like…”the debate is over”

    Where have I heard that before?

  66. #66 Betula
    January 10, 2017

    Hardley – “Does this guy really even have a job?”

    Slow time of year…a lot of snow and very cold…guys don’t like working outside when it’s 12 degrees. They may get frostbite while witnessing spiders…

  67. #67 Jeff Harvey
    January 10, 2017

    Stu at least attempts to make some points. And usually fails.

    As I said, the Dutch report ignores externalities. In other words, if climate change decimates natural ecosystems and does irreversible damage to a suite of vital ecosystem services across the biosphere, then Holland is as fucked as everywhere else. The Dutch report focuses exclusively on abiotic stresses such as rising seal levels. Nowhere is there anything on fraying food webs, collapsing ecosystems, and the damage inflicted on vital services that permit humans to exist and to persist. Thus the report is ultimately a load of rubbish. Adaptation presumes that humans are largely exempt from the effects of climate change and other anthropogenic assaults on natural ecosystems. We aren’t. If temperatures rise above the 2-3 C threshold iglobally n the coming decades then we won’t be able to adapt as the natural systems that we depend upon will damaged to such an extent that no amount of technology will be able to replace them.

    I was telling a colleague this morning who studies the effects of climate change on species interactions (e.g. phenology and the disruption of resource-consumer interactions by phenological asynchronies created by warming) about Stu’s comment that local managers are best equipped to deal with harmful demographic effects caused by warming on biodiversity, focussing on the reindeer studies.

    My colleague’s jaw literally hit the floor. We recognize that the damage inflicted on biodiversity is not limited to species but affects entire food webs, communities and ecosystems.To mitigate the effects of warming must therefore take a holistioc approach that scales up to entire ecosystems. What do local managers know about this are? Virtually nothing. They are not trained in population ecology or resource-consumer interactions and to suggest that widespread ecological effects of climate change can be successfully dealt with by ‘managers’ is utter tripe. How can managers deal with global declines in amphibian populations? In large declines of many migratory songbirds caused by changes in food supply wrought by climate change and effects down the food chain? Nobody in land management here has a clue why once common birds like the Wryneck and Red backed shrike have virtually disappeared from the Netherlands, and why once common species like Tree Saparrows, Skylarks, Song Thrushes, Corn Buntings, and many others are in population freefall. Local managers have done little to deal with a veritable collapse in the abundance of key pollinators. The reason is because the problems are not limited to simple cause-and-effect scenarios but are connected with an array ofenvironmental changes caused by man. By now we know that local fixes will ot rescue many species that are disappearing because of unraveling food webs caused by rapid warming. The solutions require global actions in mitigating C02 emissions and switching to renewables and clean enery as fast as we can. If we continue to procrastinate at the global level, then there will be many nasty surprises in store.

  68. #68 Jeff Harvey
    January 10, 2017

    Betula, don’t you mean that by ‘slow time of the year’ you are refering to your stupidity? And in that contenxt the entire year is slow for you. As I have said, you couldn’t debate science if it was placed in front of you. Every time you say something remotely ‘science-y’ its utterly hilarious.

  69. #69 Wow
    January 10, 2017

    https://science.slashdot.org/story/17/01/09/2211248/2016-was-second-hottest-year-for-us-in-more-than-120-years-of-record-keeping

    Damn. That cooling that’s going to happen any day now sure is taking a looong time…

  70. #70 Wow
    January 10, 2017

    “Betula, don’t you mean that by ‘slow time of the year’”

    Because it;s hotting up so much that even deniers can’t bring themselves to look at it.

    And there’s not much more to do to prove AGW is a real thing, denier wishes otherwise.

  71. #71 Lionel A
    January 10, 2017

    What do local managers know about this?

    As you so rightly write – ‘nothing’. This brought to mind the simplistic thinking of a hunter, in a documentary I saw a part of recently, when teaching his young teen daughter to hunt caribou – ‘always go for a bull as one bull can inseminate many cows thus bulls are always spare’. I guess this is somebody totally unfamiliar with the rules of natural selection and who probably had a sketchy education WRT evolution (after all that is only a theory – right!).

    Of course humans have skirted strict natural selection with their own species.

  72. #72 Betula
    January 10, 2017

    From Lionel’s link @ 55 –
    “Rebels will be persecuted, imprisoned or forced to become hunted outcasts, much as Chelsea Manning, Julian Assange and Edward Snowden are now. A public example will be made of anyone who defies the state. The punishment of those singled out for attack will be used to send a warning to all who are inclined to dissent.”

    And then Lionel @63 states this –

    “Of course Fox loves to give these people like Curry a platform because Fox likes ‘Twisted Truths’”

    Yet Fox, on many occasions, has given Julian Assange a “platform”…

    So in this case, which “truth” is being twisted?

  73. #73 Wow
    January 10, 2017

    The only ones calling for death of their opponents are the deniers.

    Glenn Beck: “There arent enough knives” for “dishonored” climate …
    https://thinkprogress.org/glenn-beck-there-arent-enough-knives-for-dish
    11 Feb 2010 – Glenn Beck: “There arent enough knives” for “dishonored” climate … Beck said “there’s not enough knives on planet Earth for hara-kiri that …

  74. #74 Betula
    January 10, 2017

    Wow – “That cooling that’s going to happen any day now sure is taking a looong time”

    Well, since Wow suggests the U.S. represents the entire globe (I learned that on Deltoid), and since one spider in Algonquin obviously represents climate (I learned that on Detoid too), I guess there is now harm in posting this:

    http://strangesounds.org/2016/12/us-record-cold-48-states-below-freezing-january-2017-map.html

    The good news is, at least we know that Europe doesn’t represent the entire globe…

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_2017_European_cold_wave

  75. #75 Betula
    January 10, 2017

    Wow – “The only ones calling for death of their opponents are the deniers.”

    Meanwhile, in Wow Wow land…

    “GW deniers would never admit their mistake and as a result they would be executed.”

    http://joannenova.com.au/2012/12/death-threats-anyone-austrian-prof-global-warming-deniers-should-be-sentenced-to-death/

    Hey Wow, would you like to see a play?

    http://joannenova.com.au/2016/04/kill-the-deniers-govt-funded-fantasy-play-where-guns-solve-climate-issues/

    And anyone remember this classic from Deltoids own BBD…

    BBD – “If the public really thought about the matter, deniers would be beaten in the streets, and I for one would not lift a fucking finger to stop it.”

    Good times….good times.

  76. #76 Betula
    January 10, 2017

    Since we know the drought in California was caused by AGW (Hat tip Gov. Brown)…

    http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/This-is-the-Future-Gov-Brown-Says-Climate-Change-Historic-Drought-Contrbuted-to-Extreme-Fires-327569511.html

    and we know that AGW could bring bigger, wetter storms to California….

    https://ww2.kqed.org/science/2016/02/09/california-is-likely-to-be-stormier-with-climate-change/

    It would appear that AGW is actually the solution to AGW….

    http://www.latimes.com/local/california/

    Unless of course, the scientists are wrong…or right:

    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v491/n7424/abs/nature11575.html

  77. #78 Lionel A
    January 10, 2017

    It would appear that AGW is actually the solution to AGW….

    You are either very ignorant, stupid or dishonest. No of course you aren’t you are all three.

    Drought and floods are two sides of the same coin, but only the dishonest would ignore that unless they are too stupid to overcome their ignorance of why this is. Think – where did Gov. Brown get his information for you have incorrectly Hat Tipped you simpleton.

    You are one sorry damned pissant.

  78. #79 Lionel A
    January 10, 2017

    Perhaps our resident clown-shoe pissant can try to get his head round this:

    Global warming made every state a red state in 2016

    how the scale of the problem we are sleep walking towards (thanks to the pissants of the world) has been under valued is evident from this:

    NOAA was right: we have been underestimating warming take note of the excellent replies to pissant ‘Echo_Alpha_Zulu’ in the comment threads and follow the links to other explanatory articles as they are flagged up.

    It seems that the pissants of the GWPF cannot stop trying to deceive their target audience the gullible readers of such as The Spectator and the various forms of The Mail.

  79. #80 Lionel A
    January 10, 2017

    On death threats, didn’t an avid denier come out with a noose at one meeting in Oz?

    A Reminder on deniers issuing threats.

  80. #81 Betula
    January 10, 2017

    Lionel – “where did Gov. Brown get his information”

    You mean this type of information….

    1. “Global warming caused by human emissions has most likely intensified the drought in California by 15 to 20 percent”

    2. “future dry spells in the state are almost certain to be worse:

    3. “Even though the findings suggest that the drought is primarily a consequence of natural climate variability.

    4.” the scientists added that the likelihood of any drought becoming acute is rising”

    5.“It would be a fairly bad drought no matter what”

    6. “But it’s definitely made worse by global warming.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/21/science/climate-change-intensifies-california-drought-scientists-say.html

    Lets summarize:

    “most likely”…”almost certain”….”becoming”…..translates to “definitely”…….even though “It would be a fairly bad drought no matter what”…..because “findings suggest that the drought is primarily a consequence of natural climate variability”.

    More good times at Deltoid….

    At least AGW seems to be correcting the most likely definite problem that would be bad no matter what…..correct?

  81. #82 Betula
    January 10, 2017

    Lionel, from your link At 80 where you state : “A Reminder on deniers issuing threats”

    “Whether or not any of these incidents constitute a “death threat” is, to me at least, beside the point”

    So they don’t know if they constitute death threats and then state it’s “beside the point”

    That’s another one of your great links dumbass…..If it’s beside the point, what is the point?

    By the way, Wow stated – “The only ones calling for death of their opponents are the deniers”

    I was happy to prove him wrong yet again.

  82. #83 Wow
    January 10, 2017

    “You are either very ignorant, stupid or dishonest. No of course you aren’t you are all three.”

    Oh, no. Completely batshit crazy.

    That’s our betty!

  83. #84 Wow
    January 10, 2017

    “On death threats, didn’t an avid denier come out with a noose at one meeting in Oz?”

    Yeah, but the rightwingnutjobs are actually *terrified* of violence, whereas the left really aren’t a pack of spineless cowards.

    So death threads don’t count when it comes from the RWNJ, because we aren’t scared of them, but they DO count if the RWNJ “thinks” there’s a death thread, because they hath pooped their pantaloons.

  84. #85 Betula
    January 10, 2017

    Poor Wow – must be tough having someone you believe is ignorant, stupid, dishonest and crazy prove you wrong……probably not too good for your self esteem.

  85. #86 Betula
    January 10, 2017

    Yough guy Wow – “So death threads don’t count when it comes from the RWNJ, because we aren’t scared of them, but they DO count if the RWNJ “thinks” there’s a death thread, because they hath pooped their pantaloons”

    Meanwhile, from Lionel’s link@80 –

    “I and my Climate Change Institute staff were moved to more secure quarters around March/April 2010 because of concerns my staff had about the very open and accessible premises we had at that time.”

    “I understand there were several incidents at the ANU in early 2010. On two separate occasions, individuals had walked into institute premises demanding to see particular staff members. Both individuals were acting “aggressively” Professor Steffen said”

    Bwahaha! Someone asks for them “aggressively”, so they ran and hid in a more secure place!

    Proved wrong yet again Wow – how’s that self esteem working out for you?

  86. #87 Lionel A
    January 10, 2017

    Lionel – “where did Gov. Brown get his information”

    You mean this type of information….

    You failed again. Where did those sources get their information from? Answer, the sources that you signally fail to study yourself.

    Same with the death threats against climate scientists, you have not read the literature pissant. What literature do I hear? If you don’t know then once again get off your @r$e and do some research.

  87. #88 Betula
    January 10, 2017

    Sorry Lionel, I was quoting scientists. I do realize Deltoid is not the place for such things…

  88. #89 Wow
    January 10, 2017

    “If you don’t know then once again get off your @r$e and do some research.”

    Batshit betty is neither equipped nor allowed to do that, Lionel.

  89. #90 Stu 2
    January 10, 2017

    WoW?
    Can you please let us all know where you sourced the 10M of SLR for Australia?

  90. #91 Betula
    January 10, 2017

    Wow – Batshit betty is neither equipped nor allowed to do that, Lionel.

    Yet, proving you wrong time and time again is so easy….poor Wow.

    Cheer up Bow Wow, your fellow lappers Hardley and Lionel will pretend they don’t notice…

  91. #92 Betula
    January 10, 2017

    Stu – “WoW? -Can you please let us all know where you sourced the 10M of SLR for Australia?

    The dipshit is neither equipped nor allowed to do that, Stu…

  92. #93 Stu 2
    January 10, 2017

    Jeff @ # 67.
    I don’t know who that Stu 2 you’re arguing with is ?
    You have completely conflated 2 seperate comments of mine on 2 completely different topics and then constructed a new Stu 2 (ie a classic straw man) to argue with.
    I’m a little concerned about how you and your colleagues manage your time if you are using it to discuss a non argument when there are so many real environmental issues to discuss.
    No offense, but if you lot were working in our team and persisted with pointless straw man arguments like that, you would not have a job for very long.
    We are far more interested in achieving measurable, practical TBL outcomes than wasting time on pointless arguments that require red herrings to prove something that is irrelevant to anything other than even though you’re ‘not right’ you’re still ‘not wrong’.
    I’m no more interested in getting involved in a discussion like that, than I am in playing semantics with WoW.

  93. #94 Wow
    January 10, 2017

    “No offense, but if you lot were working in our team..”

    ..of sanitation optimisation officers

  94. #95 Stu 2
    January 10, 2017

    Betula.
    You may be right, you may be wrong about WoW’s reason for not supplying his source for that 10M of SLR for Australia.
    The bottom line is he quoted it with no evidence so far.
    WoW & Jeff claim they’re informing ‘lurkers’ at this blog.
    Any ‘lurkers’ from Australia would likely want to know which ‘expert/s’ are predicting a 10M SLR for Australia wouldn’t you think?

  95. #96 Stu 2
    January 10, 2017

    WoW @#94.
    Can you please let us all know the source of that 10M SLR?
    I am only aware of expert reports and studies that are predicting SLR in mm for Australia not M.

  96. #97 Stu 2
    January 10, 2017

    Even Australian ‘sanitation optimisation officers’ would possibly be interested WoW?
    They could be ‘lurking’ here perhaps?

  97. #98 Betula
    January 10, 2017

    I agree Wow… if you were working with a team of sanitation optimism officers, you wouldn’t be working there very long….you’re not qualified.

  98. #99 Stu 2
    January 10, 2017

    Lionel @ # 56
    Along with everyone else here, you have posted links that don’t work.
    Do you draw the same conclusions about yourself?
    Does that provide evidence that you, Lionel, are a ‘lug-worm’?
    And on that same somewhat relevant note I was going to refer Jeff @# 67 to my post @ # 10 and I noticed that I didn’t copy/paste the whole quote @#10. I missed the last line.
    So here it is again if full.
    It’s an amusing little definition of misanthropy that I found a while back,

    Misanthropy
    If you are a somewhat intelligent and rational person, you will eventually come to the realization that humanity is fucked up and they all deserve to be wiped from the face of the Earth for their stupidity.
    This is called Misanthropy. I will be waiting for you when you join. ”

    Sound familiar?

  99. #100 Lionel A
    January 10, 2017

    Sorry Lionel, I was quoting scientists.

    But you were not, you were citing the NYT which may not have been putting the statements of scientist correctly in context or in entirety we know how this can work after all. But then once again you show yourself as a pissant, in pissant purgatory.

New comments have been temporarily disabled. Please check back soon.