Mark Hoofnagle has a PhD in physiology from the University of Virginia and is currently a 3rd year medical student. His interest in denialism concerns the use of denialist tactics to confuse public understanding of scientific knowledge.
My pager went off at about 7 p.m. I had already finished rounding at the hospital, gone home, showered off the day, and sat down with a cup of tea. It was my senior resident. We had admitted a psychotic young woman to the hospital, and her parents were trying to sign her out against medical advice.
The young woman had been acting more and more strangely over the past several months. When her parents finally brought her to the hospital after being unable to help her at home, she was completely disconnected from reality. She was hearing voices, screaming, picking at her clothes and skin, unwashed, and unable to have any coherent interaction with others. The staff psychiatrist had been by and had confirmed the diagnosis of acute psychosis due to newly diagnosed schizophrenia.
Her parents were clearly worried and frightened. They had watched their daughter descend into madness with increasing sadness and helplessness. Finally, as many do, they turned to their church...the Church of Scientology. And this is where the sad problem of a young, psychotic woman took a perverse turn. They were assured that through the applied philosophies of the church, their daughter could begin the return to sanity. In no uncertain terms, they were told that medical psychiatry would destroy any chance they had of recovering their child's mind. This, the terrified and hopeless parents latched onto tightly.
Psychiatrists had told the parents that they could expect a lifetime of illness, hospitalizations, maybe a job, maybe a life in a group home, and, if there was some luck, a somewhat normal life. Maybe. The church assured them that, through their healing programs, their child would return to normalcy. The demons haunting her would be purged, and she could have the life of a normal, young woman. For a price...
So, as we medicated the patient, in an attempt to reduce her fear and hallucinations, the parents came to the hospital enraged, sure that psychiatry was designed to destroy their child. Also, as parents, they felt it was within their rights to take their child, fly her to California, and enroll her in a Scientology treatment program. But the patient was 18. Without her explicit consent, they had no right to take her out of the hospital until she was stabilized. As any parent would, they had trouble understanding this. I spent hours on the phone and at the bedside with them. Since the parents could not serve as legitimate surrogates for the patient, it was necessary to file papers for involuntary psychiatric commitment. And from there arose the next problem.
My residents contacted the staff psychiatrist. He refused to certify the patient. They paged me. I called the chair of the department. He was at first quite vague, then he explained that Scientologists sue psychiatrists...a lot. But what of your duty, I asked him. He was clearly nervous about the entire case, and told me the rest was up to me.
So, after being told that psychiatry really couldn't help the patient, I went back to the hospital to do the commitment papers myself. I explained to the parents that they would be better off staying involved, since they had little recourse, and that after her commitment, they could investigate their options further. But I don't think any of us was satisfied.
Modern psychiatry, while making enormous breakthroughs in treating diseases of the mind, has been economically pressed to treat patients only medically...psychotherapy is not reimbursed well. Psychiatrists are already pressed when it comes to trying to provide the best care for their patients. To add to that the concern about being sued by cultists, well, that serves no one. The patient, at her greatest time of need, is caught in a perverse struggle, not only within her mind, but by powers outside her. Of course, she told us there were those out to get her. If she only knew the truth, how much greater might her fear be?
Comments
Cue $cientologi$t rant in 5..4..
<grin>
Posted by: LanceR | March 27, 2008 11:38 AM
Hello!
I have a friend who is a Scientologist, and whilst this is news to me that the sect often sues psychiatry, I know why.
Scientology provides what are called "audits", and they sound exactly like a psych. appointment! Clearly Scientology sees psychiatry as a threat. But just to let you know, I don't think it's a good idea to call Scientology a cult, as it is not very respected, it is a bona fide religion with tax exempts.
Posted by: Carly | March 27, 2008 11:43 AM
I also meant to add, that in Toronto, we have subsidized psychotherapy, but to see a psychologist is quite expensive. Psychiatry is a whole other ball park, as that involves medication, and to my understanding not a lot of one-on-one talking time.
Regardless, I have found that nothing gets a person out of his head, and the demons out, better than Yoga.
Posted by: Carly | March 27, 2008 11:49 AM
Carly:
Scientology may be a religion. It is also a dangerous cult. The two are not mutually exclusive.
Posted by: Skeptico | March 27, 2008 12:01 PM
Carly: Reverend Moon's Universal Unification church is also massive, well financed and a "boni-fide" religeon with similar status. The "Cult" status has nothing to do with size or wackiness. Cult behavior is authoritarian, with a charismatic leadership, abuse of the followers (whether physical, sexual, psychological or financial), and an enforced withdrawal from family and society at large linked with paranoid fantasies of persecution. There are other factors as well, but those are the elements that are the most important to distingush between a cult and a wacky religion.
Scientology still fits many of these criteria, and their paranoid fear of psychology, and expensive, ineffective and dangerous "alternatives" need to be called out whenever possible.
Posted by: Left_Wing_Fox | March 27, 2008 12:05 PM
I believe in diplomacy, and since the author clearly has some unfinished business with Scientology, and he is trying to help a patient whose parents are adherents, it is only appropriate to put personal feelings aside and entertain this opposing force.
Posted by: Carly | March 27, 2008 12:08 PM
Lisa McPherson
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | March 27, 2008 12:18 PM
It is not appropriate at all. You don't want to go to the hospital and have your doctor say "I could fix this with surgery, but let's entertain leeches.", do you? He made the appropriate medical decision. Entertaining the parents' whackjob cultists notions is not appropriate.
And yoga? For real, yo? Do you seriously think bending yourself into poses like a Barbie doll will cure "hearing voices, screaming, picking at her clothes and skin, unwashed, and unable to have any coherent interaction with others"? Really really?
I don't get woo people, really I don't.
Posted by: snoozebar | March 27, 2008 12:18 PM
What reason could a mind control cult have to distrust psychiatry? That's just crazy talk....
:-)
Posted by: Boosterz | March 27, 2008 12:25 PM
Carly, they are a Cult. Period.
Educate yourself.
Paulette Cooper
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | March 27, 2008 12:26 PM
Mark, good for you for taking an action that may have saved this young woman's life.
The church assured them that, through their healing programs, their child would return to normalcy. The demons haunting her would be purged, and she could have the life of a normal, young woman. For a price...
There's the irony, right? Don't trust evidence-based medicine because doctors might make money. Trust a religious sect that claims it can fix all your problems -- given enough money.
Posted by: Julie Stahlhut | March 27, 2008 12:32 PM
Yoga harmonizes the glandular and nervous systems, making bodies strong, taking away vices that causes people to get stuck in their heads - much like a mentally insane person (cases such as hostilities, jealousies, feelings of limitedness and inferiorities),
Try thinking you're crazy once taking, Kundalini yoga, for instance.
You'd all be a lot less bitter, and psych patients wouldn't lash out as often.
Posted by: Carly | March 27, 2008 12:34 PM
And snoozebar, I used the word "entertaining" lightly.
Try putting yourself in the child's parents shoes (compassion - another outcome of yoga practice). They are going insane right now, extremely hurt over their daughter.
I support this author, absolutely. But how do you think having a doctor write you off as something that society deems illegitimate is helpful?
Are you serious?
Posted by: Carly | March 27, 2008 12:37 PM
Oh boy.
Carly please show me medical studies showing that
If you can even define what that actually means.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | March 27, 2008 12:38 PM
Scientology is a cult, and a very nasty one at that. Read the details about how they break up families, harass their critics, and abuse their own children:
http://radaronline.com/from-the-magazine/2008/03/scientology_anonymous_protests_tom_cruise_01.php
Posted by: chezjake | March 27, 2008 12:40 PM
Right... the cure for all your ills. Yoga.
Oh. My. Dog.
Yoga may be a great exercise program, but it is NOT useful for actual medical problems, especially psychiatric ones.
Evidence? Smells like so much phlogiston to me.Posted by: LanceR | March 27, 2008 12:41 PM
Carly, please explain how you think the nervous system works. You are just repeating chiro-quack mumbo jumbo. They are always talking about how blocking/unblocking "nerves" causes all different kinds of ailments. Of course, they never actually explain HOW or try demonstrating it with a double blind study, etc.
Posted by: Boosterz | March 27, 2008 12:42 PM
Damn you chezjake, I was just about to link to that.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | March 27, 2008 12:43 PM
i have a second cousin once removed that has this girlfriend who's brother's best friend's aunt's car mechanic's sister is a satanist, and SHE said that the satanists will fix the demons for free. They bottle them.
It makes as much sense as yoga, scientology, and praying it will get better.
Crackpots. you hear? CRACK FREAKIN POTS.
Posted by: genewitch | March 27, 2008 12:44 PM
You deny that exercise aligns our body structures? Interesting....
But yes, allow me to provide a link,
http://www.3ho.org/kundaliniyoga.html
Posted by: Carly | March 27, 2008 12:45 PM
No I agree that Yoga as an exercise is very good for you. I do not agree that it has some mystical powers of aligning made up "energy".
That is a link to a yoga site and on top of that it isn;t even a study, it's description. Please provide a medical study that provides evidence that
Also please define what it would mean to have your glandular and nervous systems "harmonized".
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | March 27, 2008 12:50 PM
carly, on the main page of that site you linked:
"An authentic System with mmediate Benefits"
Notice the typo? How can i trust your source when they can't even be bothered to spell check their main PAGE?
also, linking to a yoga site to explain how yoga is better is not what they were asking for. They were asking for SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH THAT YOGA ALIGNS BODY BITS.
Learn. To. Read. IMO.
Posted by: genewitch | March 27, 2008 12:50 PM
You still haven't explained HOW you think the nervous system works. How is stretching going to do anything to my nervous system and how would that affect anything? Until you do that you are just babbling nonsense.
Posted by: Boosterz | March 27, 2008 12:52 PM
Carly, I'm very much "in alignment" with the idea that Yoga may make some people feel better in some ways.
There is a big leap from that to claiming that Yoga has whatever other affects you think it does.
Hey, my sister-in-law has a Yoga shop. She loves it. Makes her feel great. She still takes her lipitor, though.
Posted by: PalMD![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/nav-commenters.gif)
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March 27, 2008 12:53 PM
Oh, and as to having to humor the Scientology Cult parents in any way---FUCK THEM! The patient is not a minor, and if they had interfered in any material way, I would have had security kick them out of the hospital, without a second thought.
Luckily, they were reasonably nice people, and although they thought I was crazy (ironic?), they didn't materially interfere with the patient's treatment in the end.
[rant]BUT THEY ARE WACKO KILLER CULTISTS WHO DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT ANYTHING BUT FILLING THEIR POCKETS WITH MONEY. THEY CAN KISS MY ASS[/rant]
Posted by: PalMD![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/nav-commenters.gif)
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March 27, 2008 12:56 PM
There are SO many links, yogic technology isn't a secret anymore!
I linked you to that particular site, because I am a member of the 3H0 Foundation.
Posted by: Carly | March 27, 2008 12:56 PM
My wife does yoga daily. It's great for muscle tone (it shows), balance and if done correctly great for cardio.
She is under no illusions however that it is doing anything as esoteric as harmonizing her glandular and nervous systems.
Mainly because she's relies on something we like to call around the house, reason.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | March 27, 2008 12:57 PM
Then please indulge us
Well there's a shocker
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | March 27, 2008 12:58 PM
Boosterz, your comment just shows your ignorance of yoga. You hate it, and you clearly have zero connection to it.
You think yoga is stretching? Way to fall victim to being a stereotyper.
Posted by: Carly | March 27, 2008 1:00 PM
Whoa! Isn't that what got Eliot Spitzer in trouble?
Posted by: NJ | March 27, 2008 1:01 PM
Ok BigDumbChump, here's another.
I'll just spam this blog with links because you are unable to search "yoga" + "science" on Google yourself.
http://www.yogascience.org/home.htm
Posted by: Carly | March 27, 2008 1:02 PM
Actually, your inability to even explain/define your claims regarding yoga would seem to indicate that YOU are the ignorant one. You are the ones making claims that yoga is basically magic, yet you can't explain how it works. Prove me wrong, explain how it works.
Posted by: Boosterz | March 27, 2008 1:03 PM
I'm sitting here on pubmed (patient soon) and I find many yoga references, but none of any clinical significance outside of "relaxation", etc. Care to help me narrow my search?
Posted by: PalMD![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/nav-commenters.gif)
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March 27, 2008 1:05 PM
That's because it is magic; Jesus was a Yogi.
If you don't know what the glandular and nervous systems are, then why are you on a science blog?
Posted by: Carly | March 27, 2008 1:06 PM
Sorry Carly (and sorry PalMD for the hijack) but that thread still does not address my question. Second it is your burden to prove this "harmonization" you so easily throw out.
I'll repeat
Please provide a medical study that provides evidence that
Yoga harmonizes the glandular and nervous systems
Also please define what it would mean to have your glandular and nervous systems "harmonized".
Links that try and support this using other hand-wavish descriptions such as this do not count.
Medical. Please. Thank you.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | March 27, 2008 1:06 PM
thread = link
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | March 27, 2008 1:07 PM
Carly,
Please provide me a scientific "defination" of bodily humors.
Thanks.
Posted by: ozzy | March 27, 2008 1:09 PM
I know what the nervous system is, and I know that the various claims by chiro quacks relating to it are complete nonsense. Explain how you think the nervous system works and how yoga supposedly influences it. You can't do it can you?
Posted by: Boosterz | March 27, 2008 1:10 PM
Here PalMD
http://www.kriteachings.org/PDF%20Files/Khalsa%202004%20ind%20j%20physiol%20pharmacol.pdf
Posted by: Carly | March 27, 2008 1:17 PM
from the above link,
"As with any new practice or treatment being considered by the medical community, carefully designed and executed research studies that convincingly and scientifically demonstrate the effectiveness of Yoga will be required before it can be broadly applied to a large number of populations (children, the elderly, diagnosed medical and psychiatric disorders, etc.) and institutions (hospitals, schools, offices, etc.)"
Posted by: Carly | March 27, 2008 1:22 PM
Actually from this http://www.kriteachings.org/Research.htm
link
Posted by: Carly | March 27, 2008 1:23 PM
Um Carly, why did you chose to quote that passage?
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | March 27, 2008 1:24 PM
Jesus was a yogi? And I suppose he was a special one that got to have 12 boo-boos?
I guess he *really* made the ranger mad at the end. </snark>
You still have not pointed to a single bit of *evidence* that yoga is anything more than a form of exercise.
Posted by: LanceR | March 27, 2008 1:31 PM
Scanning through the references in Carly's "paper" you'll find a journal called 'J Res Indian Med Yoga Homoepathy'.
When eastern woo meets western woo...
Posted by: playr | March 27, 2008 1:32 PM
That article points to benifits from Yoga. All benifits that can be achieved by any form of regular exercise.
I'll repeat I firmly believe that Yoga is a fantastic form of exercise. I do not hold any such illusions regarding mystical energy or chakra or "harmonizing your glandular and nervous system".
That phrase alone is gibberish.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | March 27, 2008 1:36 PM
ugh. Preview is your friend
benefits x2
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | March 27, 2008 1:37 PM
I just provided 6 links, Lance R
The first 3 involve the glandular system, and the last 3 involve the nervous system, I am just waiting for them to go through now.
Too bad no one could google for themselves..
Posted by: Carly | March 27, 2008 1:39 PM
Carly, I suspect most of us are around here are used to standard citations rather than sectarian websites.
For example: Innes KE, Vincent HK.The influence of yoga-based programs on risk profiles in adults with type 2 diabetes mellitus: a systematic review. Evid Based Complement Alternat Med. 2007 Dec;4(4):469-86 PMID: 18227915
This meta-analysis at least attempts to ask and answer a question.
Posted by: PalMD![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/nav-commenters.gif)
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March 27, 2008 1:48 PM
I see only two links above (I'm guessing the others are caught by the comment moderation, it sometimes does that to multiple links in a comment) and none that define what it means to have your glandular and nervous system in "harmony"
Please define what that means and then show a medical study from an accredited institution that shows this.
I don't deny and have not denied that Yoga has physical benefits. I'm just curious about the "harmony" you speak of.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | March 27, 2008 1:49 PM
Carly, in the future when you make assertions such as the one you made above, it is your burden to provide the evidence.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | March 27, 2008 1:53 PM
Wow! I have been in contact with someone from 3HO, and I must say, that I am re-newed after this comment war.
PalMD, I just wanted to show my regret for partaking in the highjacking of your thread, and I wanted to close by quoting what was just written to me.
"We would love to have more scientific information, but there seems to be a cultural mistrust between the yogis and science. As I have seen a few people attempt to study the effects of yoga and they have been denied access. Which I found more than odd and quite disheartening, being from a science background myself.
Which means to me, that it might either not be time yet (as it will naturally happen when the Universe allows it to) or that where there is light, darkness comes. Not in a bad way, but in a way that makes the light work harder to become brighter to block out the darkness. Because darkness is just our unrealized lightness."
Blessings to you all!
Posted by: Carly | March 27, 2008 1:59 PM
Bill Dembski? Is that you?
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | March 27, 2008 2:02 PM
LOL@ Rev
I think what they really meant to say is "We would love to provide scientific evidence supporting our claims but all the available data indicates we are full of crap."
Posted by: Boosterz | March 27, 2008 2:12 PM
It is very well established that exercise (including yoga) can (and usually does) have beneficial effects for those with psychiatric illnesses. Does yoga do anything special compared to any similar exercise? No.
In the case of an acutely psychotic patent the priority is to make sure the patient doesn't hurt themselves or anyone else. This almost always means drugs. Exercise, psychotherapy, even yoga can come later. They all need the patient to have some grip on reality. Scientology does not come at all.
Posted by: JC | March 27, 2008 2:15 PM
She was nice. I hope she comes back on a more relevant yoga type thread. I hope you guys realise that is the kind of person that Denialism is trying to reach and educate about modern medicine.
Posted by: Richard Eis | March 27, 2008 2:22 PM
Nisbet is that you?
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | March 27, 2008 2:24 PM
No, I actually buy that. Carly at first seemed quite nice, but I suspect we may not be able to "turn" her, however, other yogis...
I'd love to see the actual citations of interest. I did hit PubMed, but most of the "studies" could basically be applied to any exercise.
Posted by: PalMD![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/nav-commenters.gif)
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March 27, 2008 2:42 PM
"We would love to have more scientific information, but there seems to be a cultural mistrust between the yogis and science..."
This statement can be applied to any woomeister because as soon as scientists demonstrate that the woomeister is all BS the woomeister's woo has lost all of its mystique. So, of course the yogis distrust scientists.
Posted by: ozzy | March 27, 2008 3:05 PM
Guys you chased her off before Richard could get her phone number. :(((
Posted by: minimalist | March 27, 2008 3:07 PM
Hi Guys!
I do think that any exercise is as great as yoga actually, but yoga incorporates a religious attribute, and targets certain systems particularly, which is I love, but I prefer dance to yoga anyway.
I know that we are designed to move, and I am my happiest after a walk, dance or yoga, and I'm sure that most can agree that they feel better after moving around. I work at a desk job, so I do what I can to keep moving. Watering plants is a great way to be active and feel good helping to sustain life!
And if any of you are into extra-dimensional beings, there's a great interview here http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/pleyades/esp_pleyades_15a.htm from a Pleidian who says that bones, like stones and rock, retain light (information) memory through filaments and electromagnetic fields (which I am still learning about, maybe some of you science buffs can help me), and this phenomenon makes us happy and discover our true beauty and potential, which is why we are here on earth, actually.
I love this site, I'll be around, but no I won't try to push yoga again, I don't think.
Posted by: Carly | March 27, 2008 3:30 PM
And what do you mean by "turning" me? I've been on 3 types of medications and 2 of them made me really sick, and I will never go back to anti-depressants. Really, my only line of defence against depression is yoga.
Posted by: Carly | March 27, 2008 3:33 PM
Maybe I should clarify that I am not against medicating severely ill patients?
I hope that it didn't come off this entire time that I was actually suggesting that this patient did yoga instead of rehabilitation that included prescriptions...
Posted by: Carly | March 27, 2008 3:38 PM
@ carly
Wow. Just, wow.
My fav quote of the day "And if any of you are into extra-dimensional beings, there's a great interview here"
You realize that link is nothing but literally psychotic bable, I hope? Granted, I'm not "framing" my response well, but linking to that drivel from a science blog is making my browser smolder.
Posted by: scote | March 27, 2008 3:52 PM
Scote - I am totally making fun of myself right now, that's all.
Posted by: Carly | March 27, 2008 3:55 PM
...tell me that didn't bring a huge smile to your face..
Posted by: Carly | March 27, 2008 3:56 PM
Not only did you make me smile, I almost suspected you of being Orac in drag.
Your comment above about yoga, medication, and depression is very interesting, and warrants a lit search. Certainly, it's a question that can be legitimately investigated.
Posted by: PalMD![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/nav-commenters.gif)
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March 27, 2008 4:01 PM
:) Thanks PalMD.
In part of the e-mail that gave me some peace, she wrote, even bad press is good press, because it gets people thinking about it.
I think incorporating yoga into your rehabilitation programmes just might work! (something to think about at least :))
Posted by: Carly | March 27, 2008 4:05 PM
I would like to re-state that yoga does incorporate religion, but as with any such method there are sects which take it too far. Dahn Holistic Yoga is another cult which practices disconnection, and bankrupts its members.
This is not to say that all yoga is a cult, just as not all Scientologists are involved in the cult (look up the freezone, which practices scientology but is not part of the corrupt CoS and has no stance on psychiatry).
Yes, denying a mentally ill person is outright wrong. Yes, members of the CoS are generally militantly supporting a cult.
People will go with whatever belief set that helps them get through the night and not worry about death. They are free to do so, but the line has to be drawn at the point that it interferes with the well-bring of others, and the CoS crossed that line a long, long time ago.
Posted by: cabbykins | March 27, 2008 4:19 PM
Right now, the cult is under fire of a upper -criminal investigation in France, because the scientology got a 48 woman off a psychiatry hospital, got her kidnapped, mistreated her, and sequestrated her under guard of three scientologists. This could send the cult up to 20 years behind jail.
That's adding to a criminal trial under way in Brussels, belgium, to the will of many german ministers to see the crime cult forbidden, to the very bad repute of the cult in all the other european countries, with very few exceptions.
Posted by: roger gonnet | March 27, 2008 4:23 PM
Just a note from a clinical psychologist (albeit still completing some licensure hours)... auditing is NOT exactly like an appointment with a psychotherapist. In fact, many of the techniques used and underlying theories are based upon notions that empirically-based psychologists have invalidated decades ago. While the role of the psychiatrist is important, psychotherapy research has, in many cases, already established parity between empirically-based approaches (e.g., cognitive-behavioral therapy or interpersonal therapy for depression) and antidepressants. I empathize with your position in this case; it's unfortunate that we all must be so mindful of the litigious cults in our midst.
Posted by: Matthew | March 27, 2008 4:25 PM
The arguments Scientology uses against psychiatry are very similar to the rants of ID proponents against evolution - most significantly the proposition that since the knowledge of psychiatry (and its successes) are not complete and absolute, it must be discarded as insufficient.
In this case, and "I know better than you do because I'm Right" thankfully did not trump the need to make a real attempt to save a human being's mind. Thank you for the courage of your convictions, Doctor. My hopes are with the patient.
Posted by: Anonymous | March 27, 2008 4:46 PM
Another footnote I think is relevant. A few years back, a friend of mine had gotten heavily into yoga. She'd had some problems with depression but no history of psychiatric problems. She went to an ashram in the Catskills for a weekend retreat. While she was there, in the middle of chanting, something caused her to become extremely confused mentally. I don't have a clinical term for it but she felt like she was going crazy. The people at the ashram told her she was having a "Kundalini awakening." After a couple of days of this disoriented, totally at sea feeling, my friend was back home. Her boyfriend called me, concerned because she was mostly incoherent and doing such odd things as smelling light sockets, placing a banana in the middle of the room on the floor. During this time she had some more lucid moments. Once she called me, terrified because she didn't know what was happening to her. The next day she went to a hospital, and she ended up seeing a psychiatrist and getting psych meds. It took her at least a year to get anywhere near to where she had been, mentally, before she went to the ashram.
I'm not relating this incident to warn people off of yoga; I don't think my friend's experience was typical! But I don't think yoga is a cure for insanity and unfortunately it may be risky in some cases.
Posted by: blavatsky![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/nav-commenters.gif)
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March 27, 2008 5:01 PM
Wow... Just WOW... How many meds were you on? Methinks you needed a few more. Extradimensional beings, bones with wooish data storage, sounds like you'll believe just about anything... Hmmm.... Wanna get a cup of coffee some time?
Posted by: Troy | March 27, 2008 5:15 PM
The "etradimensional beings" bit was apparently (effective) parody. Carly appears to be somewhat sane, as much as I hate to admit it.
Posted by: PalMD![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/nav-commenters.gif)
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March 27, 2008 5:22 PM
Ok good one Carly. You had me there. :)
It's the attribution of supernatural powers to yoga that i find ridiculous. Why not focus on the actual benefits of yoga instead of having to fall back to the "harmony" and "chakra" and other esoteric ideas. There is no evidence that that type of thing exists.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | March 27, 2008 5:24 PM
It did not. An appalled expression, perhaps, but not a smile. And I say that not because I don't like humor but because True Believers are so over the top as to be parody proof ;-p
In the right context your link could have been hilarious, but only if I could be sure you were joking.
Posted by: Scote | March 27, 2008 5:39 PM
THANK YOU, PalMD, for having the guts to do the right thing in a situation where you risk the litigious wrath of a cult.
The Church of Scientology's pseudo-science (and of it's front organizations like CCHR and Narconon) has killed before, and it will kill again if left unchallenged.
We need more medical professionals like you.
Cheers!
Posted by: David Mudkips | March 27, 2008 5:43 PM
P.S.
If you'd like to see a global organization with 12,000+ members taking the Church of Scientology's BS head-on:
http://forums.enturbulation.org
We'd welcome some more MD's and other medical professionals on the forums!
Posted by: David Mudkips | March 27, 2008 5:47 PM
inb4BGodley
Thanks for your thoughts on Scientology's tactics and practises from a MD's standpoint.
Mind you, they're not just anti-psych, they also attempted to infiltrate the Ontario Mental Health group (R v. Church of Scientology of Toronto for more information). Also see CCHR (A scientology front group now) and their anti-psych campaigns...
Their views, no matter what they are, are potentially harmful, and it seems that they won't just stop with conscientious objection to procedures... they'll try to get them stopped all together.
Anonymous has really opened my eyes yea? I'll try and see them on the 12th of April.
Posted by: BGodley | March 27, 2008 5:57 PM
Scote - lighten up!
Posted by: Carly | March 27, 2008 6:02 PM
...some yoga will help you to achieve that...
:D
Posted by: Carly | March 27, 2008 6:03 PM
You science types are a hoot.
Who cares if I used the word "harmonize"? Yoga means "to yoke", which means to unite (body, mind, and spirit).
And I think that I am quite lovely, I'm not sure how my sanity came into question - I think that being nasty on message boards is far more mentally insane than talking about our spirituality and healing holistically. Maybe if we connected more with our "selves" we would feel less depressed, angry, and frustrated all the time.
Hey, out of curiosity, are there any other blogs on this site that has as many comments made as this one?
Posted by: Carly | March 27, 2008 6:09 PM
Carly, I suspect, is not one of the bat-shit insane trolls we have come to expect. There is a difference between not having the scientific vocabulary to describe something, and being a pseudoscientific evagelist.
Exercise, yoga, etc are likely to have a positive effect on many people (at least, it's not an extraordinary claim)---to over-reach with claims of preventing flu or curing cancer would warrant a "Wackaloon Award" (ht pp)
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March 27, 2008 6:13 PM
aww. u thought i was a troll?!
but why? :(
Posted by: Carly | March 27, 2008 6:16 PM
Good luck, Doctor.
Posted by: anonymous | March 27, 2008 6:16 PM
Doctor, I've been taking yoga for over 2 years now, and I was the best in my class. I am blessed to have a guru for a teacher, and until I broke off and practiced very hard on my own, I followed him around like a puppy.
I did believe that yoga could fend off sickness and cure cancer, until I thought I was really sick once and realized who was I to walk around like Jesus and his disciples and teach how to cure without medicine? I can barely do yoga anymore.
In the end, I believe that it takes will to succeed in being healthy, and yoga showed me the divinity in us all, and that's why i try to maintain a practice, and starting Monday I will be taking classes weekly again.
I've mentioned Jesus a couple of times, but I am not a Christian, I am a pantheist I guess is the best way to describe it.
Posted by: Carly | March 27, 2008 6:23 PM
Wait, I want to get more information on this whole Jesus/Yogi thing...
Is this the new trinity? Yogi, Boo-boo, and the holy Picnic Basket?
Okay... too much pain medication... calming down now...
Posted by: LanceR | March 27, 2008 6:37 PM
I think the "Kundalini awakening" is the neurogenic invocation of a low NO state, the "fight or flight" state, or the ischemic preconditioned state (they are essentially all the same). I suspect it is brought upon by hypoxia produced by breath control techniques. The hypoxia generates superoxide which lowers the NO level and triggers all the down-stream effects. If so, it absolutely could produce all sorts of psychotic symptoms. It would show up as white matter hyperintensities on an MRI. If taken far enough, this physiological state can induce a state of euphoria, the euphoria of the near death state. I think that is the same euphoria produced by the stimulant drugs of abuse, solvent huffing, autoerotic asphyxiation.
Once you invoke it, it can persist long term. The supply of energy to the brain is compromised, and the brain may respond by "pruning" the excess beyond what it has the capacity to support.
If that is what is happening, it is a very serious effect that will (not could, but will) cause brain damage and shorten your life. It is a delusional state where your grip on reality is very seriously compromised.
Posted by: daedalus2u | March 27, 2008 7:21 PM
Kundalini Yoga taught me to be a better person. I can now stop thinking solely about myself, I assume complete responsibility for myself - I don't blame people, I don't victimize myself; I have a desire to protect the planet and the people on it, I can sacrifice my time, I can give my last piece of lunch to someone even if I'm still hungry, I can push my physical limits, I can feel secure in myself, rely on myself.
I believe that I achieved full kundalini awakening this past summer, and that I have experienced what is defined in mysticism, "The soul undergoes a purification (the purgative way), which leads to a feeling of illumination and greater love of God (the illuminative way); after a period the soul may be said to enter into mystical union with God (the unitive way), which begins with the consciousness that God is present to the soul; the soul progresses through a time of quiet and an ecstatic state to a final perfect state of union with God (spiritual marriage). Late in this process there is an experience (the dark night of the soul) wherein the contemplative finds himself completely deserted by God, by hope, and, indeed, even by the power to pray; it lasts sometimes for years."
http://bartleby.com/65/my/mysticis.html
Posted by: Carly | March 27, 2008 7:38 PM
Since this comments thread already has a strong yoga tangent, I don't feel too bad about discussing something other than the Scientology/psychiatry issue, about which I know very little. I'm a tenured research scientist (developmental neurobiology and cancer) and anatomy/neuroscience instructor, and a "practitioner" of Iyengar yoga, which is a branch of Hatha yoga that emphasizes alignment and balance as preparation for meditation. I don't expect anyone to automatically believe the former claim (I think people lie a lot on teh interwebz), but PalMD could easily check out my credentials if it's an issue. I'm not at a naturopathic or osteopathic institution, or at any other Woo U.
I don't believe the chakra stuff and the kundalini force stuff and the skull luster stuff and the inverted-postures-bathe-the-thyroid-gland (in anything other than woo) stuff. The asanas, or poses, which almost everyone assumes represent the entirety of "yoga", definitely provide musculoskeletal benefits and improvements in posture and range of motion at joints, in my experience.
But there's another important aspect of Hatha yoga that's being ignored here, pranayama, and it's the one for which there might be some evidence (albeit indirect) for an influence on the nervous system. Pranayama, which is the "breath control" part, is considered an intermediate or advanced practice, at least in Iyengar yoga, and it's an essential part of the preparation for meditation.
Since Carly has maintained what appears to be a pretty good sense of humor, in spite of the typical ScienceBlogs comments dogpile, I'll support her with three references to articles from peer-reviewed neuroscience journals, each of which demonstrates that slow oscillations in cortical activity are coupled to respiration, i.e. the electrical activity of neurons in the brain is coupled or synchronized to the breathing cycle, under certain circumstances. If my post makes it through, I'll elaborate a bit on the findings in each article in a separate comment. Here are the references:
Fontanini, A., Spano, P., and Bower, J.M. (2003). Ketamine-xylazine-induced slow (
Fontanini, A. and Bower J.F. (2005). Variable coupling between olfactory system activity and respiration in ketamine/xylazine anesthetized rats. J. Neurophysiol. 93, 3573-3581.
doi: 10.1152/jn.01320.2004
Masaoka, Y., Koiwa, N., and Homma, I. (2005). inspiratory phase-locked alpha oscillation in human olfaction: source generators estimated by a dipole tracing method. J. Physiol. 566, 979-997
doi: 10:1113/jphysiol.2005.086124
Posted by: Barn Owl | March 27, 2008 8:20 PM
carly, its a cult which sued the IRS into submission so it could attain tax exempt status and parade as a religion (which denies teachings to its own followers unless they pay) and yet is a commerical enterprise in this way and hates psychiatry as its a 'threat' to their brainwashing.
tax the cult, investigate its crimes.
Posted by: Gordon Freeman | March 27, 2008 8:22 PM
@Owl...sounds interesting with at least a shot at plausibility. Of course, the clinical literature is more interesting to me, but still...
At some point, I'm going to have to dig through the 1465 hits on MedLine for Yoga and see what's out there.
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March 27, 2008 8:29 PM