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brayton_headshot_wre_1443.jpg Ed Brayton is a journalist, commentator and speaker. He is the co-founder and president of Michigan Citizens for Science and co-founder of The Panda's Thumb. He has written for such publications as The Bard, Skeptic and Reports of the National Center for Science Education, spoken in front of many organizations and conferences, and appeared on nationally syndicated radio shows and on C-SPAN. Ed is also a Fellow with the Center for Independent Media and the host of Declaring Independence, a one hour weekly political talk show on WPRR in Grand Rapids, Michigan.(static)

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« Virgin Mary Was Frigid; Film at 11 | Main | Allen Asch in the Sac Bee »

Steve Fuller's Strange Arguments

Category: Intelligent Design
Posted on: January 24, 2007 9:38 AM, by Ed Brayton

Perhaps the strangest part of the Dover trial was the testimony of Steve Fuller, a sociologist and philosopher of science from the UK. His testimony frankly left a lot of us scratching our heads and wondering A) why the defense called him as an expert witness and B) whether he actually believes much of what he said on the stand. Some of his arguments were so...well, weird seems the right word, that it left many of us baffled. His writings since the trial haven't exactly cleared up any of the confusion.

He has a guest post on an ID blog that contains more odd claims. To begin with, this entirely false claim:

The US has always had a 'difficult' relationship with religion because of the traumatic origins of the nation. The original British settlers, especially in what became the liberal northern establishment, were wealthy dissenters (including Catholics and Jews) who were prohibited from political participation in their homeland. Henceforth, all attempts to impose a religious orthodoxy would be prohibited - in the name of protecting religious freedom, of course.

Absolutely baffling. The original British settlers, especially in the north, were theocrats who were bothered that someone else had beaten them to the punch of establishing an official religion in England that wasn't theirs. England at the time was an Anglican theocracy and they wanted a Calvinist one, which is exactly what they set up when they got here, and Catholics and Jews were persona non grata. Religious freedom did not come until well over a century later.

Thus, Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, the trial in which I testified, is classed as a civil rights case.

Only in the broadest sense of the word, in the sense that all cases involving a provision of the Bill of Rights are called civil rights cases. But Kitzmiller was an establishment clause case specifically, which means it does not require that someone's civil rights have been violated, only that the government, in this case the school board, has acted outside its constitutional authority.

It is not the first time a moral panic has broken out over the prospect that some religiously inspired views might make their way into state-supported schools. The legal response has been characteristically thuggish. Thus, the American Civil Liberties Union bulldozed its way into Dover, Pennsylvania, just as it did eighty years ago in Dayton, Tennessee to turn the Scopes 'Monkey' Trial into an international sensation.

Notice there is no argument here, only an ugly insult. He doesn't say that the ACLU was wrong, only that it was "thuggish" and it "bulldozed" its way in. Typical rhetoric, but hardly reasonable. And when he does try to supply such arguments, he has only straw men to offer:

The intellectual content of the ACLU's case against ID is largely based on fears about a right-wing religious takeover of the US school system. I don't doubt that many of ID's supporters harbour such desires, but the decentralised nature of the school system - which accounts for the seemingly endless court cases involving the teaching of evolution -- makes any such takeover unlikely.

This is utter nonsense. The plaintiff's case in Kitzmiller did not require any such argument, nor was one made. All it required was that this particular policy be found unconstitutional, regardless of whether any other school anywhere followed their example. There were lots of arguments made in the trial against ID, none of which had anything to do with a "right wing religious takeover" of the school system. The "intellectual content" of the case against ID is to be found in the volumes of testimony about the complete lack of scientific content offered by the ID movement.

Nevertheless, the ACLU's eagerness to pursue cases like Kitzmiller, especially given all the other civil rights violations in the US, reflects a profound lack of faith in the wisdom of elected local school boards to resolve these matters.

And pray tell, why should anyone have any such faith in the wisdom of elected local school boards? The board in Dover was not exceptional, they were about average for most local school boards, which tend to be populated primarily by people like Bill Buckingham. That is, by people who would have little hope of passing an exam in virtually any of the classes offered at the school and thus hopelessly unqualified to be passing judgment on how anything ought to be taught.

Since schools are funded entirely through local taxes, if taxpayers dislike what is taught, they can always vote against the school board's members in the next election. (And they do!)

But legal issues are not decided on what taxpayers like or dislike, nor should they be. If you put up for a vote what should be taught in public schools, the results would be frightening. And why should such a thing be put to a vote? Why would we give credence to someone to make a judgment on what ought to be taught in a science classroom if they know little or nothing about science? We don't put medical diagnoses up for a vote of the public, nor do we take straw polls to decide what is wrong when our car doesn't work, we defer to the judgment of those trained in medicine or auto mechanics because they have a far better chance of actually knowing what they're talking about.

The same is true in matters of science or history or mathematics, which just like auto mechanics or medicine require a good deal of study and expertise in order to be understood. Asking the general public to decide what ought to be taught in a class in which the vast majority of them would have a vanishingly small chance of passing a mid-term exam is as absurd as asking the janitors at the hospital the best course of treatment for a herniated disk; they simply do not have the knowledge required to make an informed choice.

In this respect, the US provides a wonderful experimental environment for educational alternatives. Yet, this has not prevented an ingrained paranoid reaction to the slightest whiff of religion in the schools that serves, unwittingly, to stultify the spirit of free inquiry.

More nonsense. Those who advocate intelligent design are entirely free to do what scientists have always done when their ideas conflict with the consensus and are rejected by mainstream scientific opinion; they are free to do the hard work necessary to prove that consensus wrong. That they choose not to do that work and engage instead in dishonest public relations campaigns and political lobbying efforts is a key fact that lends credence to the argument that they are not engaged in science at all.

I was asked by the defence counsel to serve as a 'rebuttal witness' to the experts amassed by the ACLU. I agreed after having read the expert witness statements, which contain some of the most egregiously ignorant abuses of scientific and philosophical authority imaginable. I tried to address the most important of these in my own expert statement, but they continued to proliferate - more egregiously and ignorantly - in the ACLU expert witness transcripts. I don't know if ID's hardcore supporters are simply scared or polite, but it would not take much to deflate the significance of the ACLU experts' claims. I tried to do this in my own court testimony, but in the end I was mainly trying to shore up ID's scientific credentials, not deconstruct those of the ACLU's experts. Nevertheless, I have plenty of notes about this and hope to be invited to publish them to a wide audience.

Translation: those who disagree with me are a bunch of mean poopyheads and someday I might attempt to support that claim.

Finally, what do I think of ID's own prospects? ID is currently stuck in the Neo-Darwinists' image of them. Its proponents lean too heavily on the evidence against evolution. They too quickly reach for God and don't make enough of the idea that 'design' is a concept indifferent to the life/non-life distinction.

Well at least he recognizes the obvious about the ID movement. However, he seems to give no thought to the possibility that the ID movement lean heavily on arguments against evolution (all of them taken directly from creationist material) because that's all they have to offer, or that they "too quickly reach for God" because the entire artifice of ID is little more than a less substantive version of good old fashioned creationism.

During the trial, Fuller made many more statements that were simply counter to all historical evidence. For example, he actually argued that ID should be put into public schools as a sort of "affirmative action strategy with regard to disadvantaged theories", as though all ideas were equally plausible and deserved an equal number of followers to develop them. I'm quite serious, he actually said that:

Q. Well, does that concern you have for encouraging scientific progress explain in part why you're supporting Dover's small step in this case?

A. Yes. Well, in fact, that is, in a sense, the main reason, because if you think about this sociologically, how do you expect any kind of minority view with any promise to get a toe hold in science? Okay. And you basically need new recruits.

This has been the secret of any kind of scientific revolution or any kind of science that has been able to maintain itself. You need enough people on the ground, a critical mass to develop it. You just can't count on three or four people and somehow expect them to spontaneously generate followers, especially when they're being constantly criticized by the establishment.

You have to provide openings and opportunities where in principle new recruits to the theory could be brought about. And, of course, the way to do it, the most straight forward way is by making people aware of it early on, and to show promise, not to mandate it, but to show that it's there. Take it or leave it.

And some will take it. And they may go on and develop it further. And then you'll see the full fruits of the theory down the line. But unless you put it into the school system, it's not going to happen spontaneously from the way in which science has been developing at this point.

There are a couple of obvious reasons why this argument is absurd. First, because history strongly argues the contrary. There have been many revolutions in science where a dominant theory was replaced by a "radical, innovative" new theory that was initially rejected by mainstream scientists; in not a single one of those situations was it required that they be taught in schools prior to their acceptance as an "affirmative action strategy" to provide recruits to help develop the theory.

Alfred Wegener did not demand that his views on continental drift be put into public school curricula in order to overcome the hidebound orthodoxy of his fellow scientists; he merely got to work, continually working with like minded people to develop and refine his theory and document the evidence for it. His views, once the upstart new kid on the block being told to stay off the old theory's lawn, is now the dominant view. Fuller does not provide a single example of a revolution in science requiring such an affirmative action strategy, nor could he possibly find one if he tried. They simply don't exist.

Indeed, the fact that no such affirmative action program has ever been provided for any idea that was rejected by scientists and yet many such ideas have been initially rejected and then ended up being dominant ideas before long, proves that his logic is false. And one might add that ID has an enormous advantage over every other previously rejected idea in that it is already taught to millions of kids in private Christian schools and home schools around the country.

Big bang cosmology, as Behe reminded the court about 14 million times during his testimony, was initially rejected by mainstream scientists. But big bang cosmology, within a couple of decades, became the dominant view among scientists. By Fuller's reasoning, it must be seen as a miracle that it managed to do so without being taught in schools so that new students could be recruited that might push the idea forward and make it compelling and scientific.

Yet it did so with none of the advantages that ID has already; there was no PR campaign to push big bang cosmology in churches, school boards and legislatures, no well-funded institutes publishing reams of books and pamphlets to a huge target audience eager to read their material. There were no churches sponsoring seminars to convince people that the big bang was real, or blogs to promote it all over the world.

And yet it managed to succeed simply because the scientists who promoted it did the work necessary to establish the big bang theory as valid. And because it was an actual theory, one which allowed the derivation of testable hypotheses and thus spurred actual research. Fuller admitted during his testimony that ID required "much more development" before it could spur actual scientific research. The obvious answer, of course, is that until it does so, and until those research results actually support the idea, it simply has no business even being discussed as part of a high school science curriculum.

Secondly, think of the implications of his argument. He does not attempt to argue that ID, among the vast sea of fringe ideas in science, is uniquely plausible and therefore deserves this kind of affirmative action before other fringe ideas. Indeed, his argument logically requires the same be done for each and every fringe idea in science, from the geocentrists to the flat earthers to the hollow earthers to the Raelians to Van Daniken's pyramidiocy to UFO cults and who knows what else.

By Fuller's reasoning, each and every one one of these positions, and countless more, must be taught in public schools lest we disadvantage such "radical, innovative views." By his reasoning, all of these ideas must be taught fairly and equally along with all of the well established scientific explanations for every natural phenomena in the world in order to provide them with new recruits on the off chance that they might be proven right someday. To call this idea lunacy is to be too kind; it is sheer idiocy.

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Comments

1

I posted a link to this post as a comment on that post; we'll see how long it lasts.

Steve Fuller had some guest posts on Michael Berube's blog, and they were outstanding in raw stupidity:

http://www.michaelberube.com/index.php/weblog/comments/783/
http://www.michaelberube.com/index.php/weblog/comments/781/
(two comments, #51 and 52)

Posted by: Barry | January 24, 2007 10:14 AM

2

"England at the time was an Anglican theocracy and they wanted a Calvinist one, which is exactly what they set up when they got here, and Catholics and Jews were persona non grata."

Heck, they couldn't even get along with Baptists and other protestants!

Posted by: KeithB | January 24, 2007 11:25 AM

3

The intellectual content of the ACLU's case against ID is largely based on fears about a right-wing religious takeover of the US school system. I don't doubt that many of ID's supporters harbour such desires...

So he just admitted that the ACLU's fears (and ours) were well-grounded. The next step, of course, will be for him to admit that those very well-grounded fears were what caused our forefathers to ratify the Bill of Rights.

Posted by: Raging Bee | January 24, 2007 11:36 AM

4
A) why the defense called him as an expert witness
What were their options? Fuller is apparently not a fellow of the Discovery Institute, nor its Center for Science and Culture, so wasn't affected by the walkout.

Posted by: Mustafa Mond, FCD | January 24, 2007 11:46 AM

5

Based on the first paragraph you quote, the one on the early settlers of what became the US, Fuller's as ignorant of American history and his own as he is of biology and evolution. It's amazing to me that he could have ever landed a tenured position at any university other than a bible institute.

Posted by: Keanus | January 24, 2007 11:48 AM

6
Fuller does not provide a single example of a revolution in science requiring such an affirmative action strategy, nor could he possibly find one if he tried. They simply don't exist.
I would nominate Lysenkoism in mid-20th-century USSR as the nearest example. The revolution didn't last long though.

Posted by: Mustafa Mond, FCD | January 24, 2007 11:57 AM

7

"The original British settlers, especially in what became the liberal northern establishment, were wealthy dissenters (including Catholics and Jews) who were prohibited from political participation in their homeland. Henceforth, all attempts to impose a religious orthodoxy would be prohibited - in the name of protecting religious freedom, of course."

I hate those alternate histories stories. Oh, you mean this is not taken from a book of fiction/

On a more serious note, his reference to Catholics and Jews is disturbing. Did we get a peek into some of his less publicly-expressable beliefs?

Posted by: Mark P | January 24, 2007 12:30 PM

8

Wegener's idea (see how nicely the continents fit together) exploded into the science of plate tectonics decades later, after a significant observation of unrelated data--stripes of magnetic anomalies parallel to and symmetric on either side of mid-ocean ridges. These were shown to be due to magnetization of basalt that was injected along the rifts and spread apart with the rifting. Now, we see how plate tectonics explains many of the geological features we see today (mechanistically, not in terms of "Oh, that's due to plate tectonics"). Intelligent Design has not progressed beyond the idea of "doesn't that look like it was designed".

Posted by: mark | January 24, 2007 1:00 PM

9

Excellent post - thank you.

Posted by: TW | January 24, 2007 1:13 PM

10

As an aside, one of the more disturbing parts of Fuller's blog post is the bit where he talks about the future of ID:

People (mostly younger ones) who generate virtual realities on computers and biotechnology in laboratories are quite happy to blur the life/non-life distinction, imagining themselves in a God-like capacity. They are a natural constituency for ID, and should be cultivated.

Nothing like cultivating the young rather than practicing real science...

Posted by: TW | January 24, 2007 1:27 PM

11

I know you don't do abortion as a topic but I thought this might be relevant.

At the heart of the "partial-birth abortion" ban act that's before the Supreme Court, one of the issues is the extent to which the Court must give deference to Congress on Legislative Findings. In this case, the findings are that D&X (the procedure they are targetting) is never necessary to protect the health of the mother and therefore there is no need for a health exception as per Casey.

I'm not entirely sure if the Supreme Court can give a holding without determining this issue and if it waves Congress to do so, we'll literally have "scientific facts" by vote.

Posted by: noself | January 24, 2007 1:47 PM

12

Ed, this article should be cross-posted to Pandasthumb.

Posted by: doctorgoo | January 24, 2007 2:28 PM

13

(The Dover board members) were about average for most local school boards, which tend to be populated primarily by people like Bill Buckingham. That is, by people who would have little hope of passing an exam in virtually any of the classes offered at the school and thus hopelessly unqualified to be passing judgment on how anything ought to be taught.

Ed, this is grossly unfair to most local school board members, who are mostly civic-minded individuals trying to do a thankless job for what amounts to no compensation.

It's been my experience that more often than not when professional educators - and other professionals like yourself - who may live in a community are invited to run for the local school board, they turn it down because they are too busy. That's just a PC way of saying they can't be bothered. After all, no one at their paying jobs is going to give them any kudos for it. If anything, they'll be considered kind of foolish for giving up their time.

But that doesn't mean all members who do feel a tug of civic responsiblity are yokels and troglodytes, as you would imply.

Posted by: Poly | January 24, 2007 4:10 PM

14

No, i didn't say that all members of school boards are that way, nor was the whole Dover board that way. I said that many school board members are at about Buckingham's level of intelligence and education; many, of course, are not. And unfortunately, a sizable percentage of the folks who "feel a tug of civic responsibility" tend to be religious righters who just want to keep anything gay, sexual or scientific out of the schools (the Christian Coalition began, in the 1980s, an extraordinarily successful campaign to take over school boards around the country and even today, when their influence has decreased significantly, they still run thousands of candidates who are directly affiliated with them or fellow travelers). I've dealt with more of them than I can count. I've also dealt with many very bright people to balance them off; unfortunately, we need a lot more of those people.

Posted by: Ed Brayton | January 24, 2007 4:35 PM

15

It should be noted that Wegener's theory of Continental Drift failed for two reasons. First, there were conflicting geological pieces of evidence, but -- much more importantly -- Wegener was not a geologist (he was a meteorologist). Despite this, within 50 years, most of his physical claims were accepted, even if the physical explanations were changed.

Wegener is hardly a case of science failing. It is an instance of its success, despite the preconditions and beliefs of many of its practitioners. Fuller is badly mistaken.

Posted by: kehrsam | January 24, 2007 9:24 PM

16

Social epistemology, which Fuller is a leading advocate of, can work if, and only if, they remain grounded in actual science. Fuller is in fairy land. Sorry Virginia, there is a privileged epistemic community...

Posted by: John Wilkins | January 24, 2007 10:10 PM

17

People, like Fuller, who cite Newton's belief in intelligent design as the heuristic that drove his vision of science are not wrong but they are guilty of only telling part of the story. Newton's heuristic was very complex and as well as his belief that his god had designed the world in an ordered mathematical form that he, god's chosen mouthpiece, could expose, Newton also believed in prisca theology, that is that these things had been known to an ealier generation and then lost and that he was only rediscovering them. On top of this he also believed in alchemy, in fact his third law was taken from an alchemy text by van Helmont. Can we expect to see Fuller pleading for a return to teaching alchemy in schools in the near future?

Posted by: Thony C. | January 25, 2007 6:19 AM

18

I've followed Fuller closely since the Dover trial and I find it extremely hard to believe he's acting in good faith when it comes to ID. I understand that he has criticised postmodernism in the past, but his arguments in favour of teaching ID are strikingly postmodern. He admits it isn't science in its current form; he admits that its major proponents are entirely religiously motivated; yet he thinks it should be taught simply because it is a different viewpoint to evolutionary theory and because it would give ID a foothold from which it will somehow turn into real science. Witness:

ID deserves space less for what it's done recently than as a representative of the main counter-tradition in the history of science to the one represented nowadays by Neo-Darwinism.
It doesn't matter whether or not it's true, or whether neo-Darwinism is true - what matters is that it's a counterweight! Whenever he has debated the subject - at Berube's place or in the broadcast media - he has consistently refused to engage with the argument that ID isn't just not science at the moment, but that the project is at its core thoroughly anti-scientific. He claims that ID has the potential to open up new avenues of enquiry for science, yet when people point out that ID in fact operates through shutting down avenues of enquiry by inserting the placeholder "design" and refusing to ask questions about the mechanism of design, he simply ignores them.

At one point in the Bérubé exchanges Fuller admitted that what he dislikes about evolution is that it supposedly denies man a privileged position in nature, whereas monotheistically driven "science" affords man that privileged position. As always, it seems, support for ID boils down to finding evolution icky.

Posted by: Ginger Yellow | January 25, 2007 7:30 AM

19

Ed said:

'The board in Dover was not exceptional, they were about average for most local school boards, which tend to be populated primarily by people like Bill Buckingham. That is, by people who would have little hope of passing an exam in virtually any of the classes offered at the school and thus hopelessly unqualified to be passing judgment on how anything ought to be taught.'

True perhaps, but a little snotty, no? Especially since Ed had just finished chiding Fuller for hurling an 'ugly insult' rather than offering cogent argument.

Posted by: Dave Genner | January 25, 2007 10:12 AM

20

I have no doubt that Buckingham and those like him would find my statement insulting, but that does not change the fact that it is true. How else can one say it? It seems self-evident to me that someone who lacks the requisite knowledge and ability to pass a biology exam, at the very least, has no business deciding what ought to be taught there. What is the difference between giving that power to someone like Buckingham and giving it to those kids who fail the class every semester? An argument can be cogent, true and insulting to others at the same time; the part that matters is whether it is true, not whether someone finds it insulting.

Posted by: Ed Brayton | January 25, 2007 10:18 AM

21

I have a feeling certain school boards in Mississippi are rejoicing over Mike Lott's (R-District 104) latest piece of tripe: Mississippi House Bill 625.

House Bill 625

AN ACT TO AUTHORIZE LOCAL SCHOOL BOARDS TO ALLOW THE TEACHING OF CREATIONISM OR INTELLIGENT DESIGN; AND FOR RELATED PURPOSES.

BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF MISSISSIPPI:

SECTION 1. The school board of a school district may allow the teaching of creationism or intelligent design in the schools within the district. However, if the theory of evolution is required to be taught as part of the school district's science curriculum, in order to provide students with a comprehensive education in science, the school board also must include the teaching of creationism or intelligent design in the science curriculum.

SECTION 2. This act shall take effect and be in force from and after July 1, 2007.

Wouldn't this be illegal, given that it's calling for the teaching of religion in public schools?

Posted by: Jason I. | January 25, 2007 12:26 PM

22

Yes. Do you have any other spectacularly easy questions I can help you with?

Posted by: Ginger Yellow | January 25, 2007 1:12 PM

23

The only good thing about Steve Fuller, is that he won some games for the Bears in 1985, when Jim McMahon was out injured.

They say Jimbo is our man.
If Jimmy can't do it, I sure can.
This is Steve, and it's no wonder
I run like lightnin', pass like thunder.
So bring on Atlanta, bring on Dallas,
This is for Mike and Papa Bear Halas.
I'm not here to feather his ruffle,
I just came here to do
The Super Bowl Shuffle.

Posted by: J-Dog | January 25, 2007 4:27 PM

24

Also, Jason, I doubt many school boards are rejoicing given that this law forces them to either stop teaching evolution or to violate the constitution.

Posted by: Ginger Yellow | January 25, 2007 5:19 PM

25

Ginger, I'd certainly hope not, but I wouldn't be surprised if Lott didn't have tacit backing from school boards in his district before suggesting such garbage.

Posted by: Jason I. | January 25, 2007 5:23 PM

26

Isn't that basically the exact same law struck down in Edwards v Aguillard, like, 20 years ago or something?

Has the law actually passed or was it just proposed?

Posted by: Coin | January 25, 2007 5:32 PM

27

It's only been proposed, and appears unlikely to even get a vote at this point.

Posted by: Ed Brayton | January 25, 2007 5:35 PM

28

If you want more of an idea of what a fruitcake Fuller is, have a read of this:
http://members.tripod.com/~ScienceWars/indoo.html

SOmeone on the BCSE forum posted the url. Its a newspaper article by Fuller on what he percieves as the problems with science, and contains attacks on scientists because he thinks they willfully misunderstand science studies and social scientists. It contains a number of generalisations and simplifications, such that its entertaining rather than informative.

Posted by: guthrie | January 26, 2007 4:28 PM

29

Ed wrote:

And unfortunately, a sizable percentage of the folks who "feel a tug of civic responsibility" tend to be religious righters who just want to keep anything gay, sexual or scientific out of the schools (the Christian Coalition began, in the 1980s, an extraordinarily successful campaign to take over school boards around the country and even today, when their influence has decreased significantly, they still run thousands of candidates who are directly affiliated with them or fellow travelers).

That may be somebody's strategy, but I think if you're going to make broad generalizations about a group - even conditionally - you should have some evidence to back it up.

Do you really have evidence to back up your statement that "a sizable percentage" of the people who run for local school boards - much less get elected - are "religious righters"? And is the percentage of "religious righters" who do run very much different from the demographics of the communities in which they run? For example, if a local community is, say 75% social conservative, I would expect the percentage of candidates running in any local election to more or less reflect that, and I wouldn't consider it "a sizable percentage" if they did.

I don't think that you have the evidence for your statements - but I'm willing to listen if you do.

None of this goes to the constitutional issues of inappropriate insertion of religious doctrines into public schools, of course, but neither do your statements.

And I hope you are not saying that "religious righters" should be barred from running for public office - that would be truly un-American.

Posted by: Poly | January 26, 2007 6:40 PM

30

My evidence was cited in my statement; it's based on my experience in dealing with dozens and dozens of school boards over the years. I have also seen lots and lots of reports of the success of, for example, Christian Coalition candidates for local school boards all over the country, but I did not cite a study. You're free to doubt it, but that doesn't make me wrong. And of course I'm not saying that religious righters should be barred from running for public office. No sane person who has read me for 10 minutes could possibly think I would take that position.

Posted by: Ed Brayton | January 26, 2007 6:48 PM

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