Parents and the Atheist Closet : Dispatches from the Culture Wars

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Ed Brayton is a journalist, commentator and speaker. He is the co-founder and president of Michigan Citizens for Science and co-founder of The Panda's Thumb. He has written for such publications as The Bard, Skeptic and Reports of the National Center for Science Education, spoken in front of many organizations and conferences, and appeared on nationally syndicated radio shows and on C-SPAN. Ed is also a Fellow with the Center for Independent Media and the host of Declaring Independence, a one hour weekly political talk show on WPRR in Grand Rapids, Michigan.(static)

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Parents and the Atheist Closet

Posted on: April 11, 2007 1:47 PM, by Ed Brayton

A reader sends along this Youtube video of a 14 year old telling his mother that he doesn't believe in God. The reaction is priceless. I had a much longer and more detailed conversation of this type when I was 17 or 18 with my stepmother when I told her I was no longer going to go to church because I no longer believed in Christianity. We stood in the kitchen for a good half an hour yelling at one another about it while my father sat at the dining room table with the newspaper in front of his face. After a half hour or so, he just casually lowered the newspaper and declared the verdict: "I believe the boy's right." That was when the fight between me and my stepmother ended and the fight between my dad and my stepmother began.

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I've considered myself an atheist for about 3 years now and still haven't told my parents. I don't remember the last time my dad went to church but I haven't been there in at least that amount of time. Maybe one of these days the topic will come up with my mom as to why but until then my parents are in the dark about it.

Posted by: llDayo | April 11, 2007 2:47 PM

It was good of your dad to stick up for you.

For my part, my dad (liberal Roman Catholic) and mom (liberal agnostic with quiet disregard for religion in general) didn't put up much of a fuss when I declared myself atheist at age 12. My dad wasn't that big on the Church in general (Paul VI was Pope then), and both were a little more concerned when I started talking about the halelujah-born-again variety of Christianity around age 14.

Posted by: Raging Bee | April 11, 2007 2:55 PM

I was lucky... in a way. I started questioning my religion early, but didn't actually get the guts to actually leave all varieties of Christianity, etc., for a couple of years after I left home. My father still thinks I'm demon posessed, but my mother has been reasonably accepting. I think she had years to deal with it... besides, I didn't give her much choice.

That 14 year old had a lot of guts, and I especially like how he managed to get her reaction on tape, thereby making her look like a supreme fool. I wish I'd had a video camera for some of the more... esoteric... doctrinal arguments that my parents had, I'd porbably be a youtube celebrity by now. If they hadn't killed me already.

Posted by: Russell Miller | April 11, 2007 3:23 PM

About the closest I can come to classifying myself is an apathetic agnostic (don't know, don't care). Every once in a while, my mom hints that she'd love to see me go back to church. Like Dayo, I haven't explained my beliefs (or lack thereof) to my mother yet. She's not an idiot, so I'm sure she's got at least some clue, given that I haven't been to church in several years. Thankfully, if and when I do tell her, I know she won't react with histrionics. She and I agree on nearly every subject of cultural tension today (gay marriage, evolution, abortion). She fully supports gay marriage, thinks ID is crap and only evolution should be taught in schools (she thinks that way for both public and private schools), and fully supports a woman's right to choose. She also has told me she knows you don't need to go to church, or even subscribe to a particular religion, to live a good, moral life. For a 67 year old woman who has gone to a Lutheran church nearly every Sunday of her life, I think that's pretty damned cool.

Posted by: Jason I. | April 11, 2007 3:24 PM

Some genius posted this in the youtube comments...

polateq25 (3 hours ago)
I think it was the 10789th commandment, subpart 9, paragraph (j) that says : "Thou shalt not say 'fuck', even when thy son perturb thee, for it maketh thee to look like an unhinged lunatic, yea and the heathens shall laugh at thy stupidity, thus saith the Lord."

Posted by: spondee | April 11, 2007 3:38 PM

You gotta love the Defender Of The Faith starting with "GMAFB."

Posted by: Pieter B | April 11, 2007 3:58 PM

That'll teach me to let my preview sit there for nearly an hour before hitting "post."

Posted by: Pieter B | April 11, 2007 4:00 PM

At least you had someone to stick up for you.

Posted by: Kristine | April 11, 2007 4:16 PM

That was when the fight between me and my stepmother ended and the fight between my dad and my stepmother began.

I hope you didn't guilt yourself too much over that.

Posted by: Aerik | April 11, 2007 4:34 PM

Aerik:

Are you kidding? I woulda sold tickets.

Posted by: Russell Miller | April 11, 2007 4:51 PM

Heck, if I were to come out of the atheist closet to my family, most of them probably wouldn't believe me anyway! *rolls eyes*

Out of my 3 to 4 dozen first cousins, I'm one of just 3 who 'escaped' our hometown, and by far, I'm the most successful... so it must be because I've been blessed by God, and He wouldn't bless an atheist, now would He??
*rolls eyes so far that I'm permanently cross-eyed now*

But the decision to reject Christianity wasn't really all that difficult. I most definitely don't agree with my early church upbringing. For the first 16 years of my life, I was either attending a hick Baptist church that was full of racists (I have uncles who still laugh like crazy just from hearing the word 'coon'), or the large Pentecostal church in town where women MUST wear dresses and have long hair. (Shoot, I grew up thinking that it was normal for everyone to scream hysterically in church!) So it was very easy for me to reject such extremely twisted versions of Christianity.

But these days (and this probably makes me a hypocrite), I don't even know if I would want to be known as an atheist to my family, even though I'm really not a believer any more. Basically, it's because I still have some positive influence over some of my younger relatives... From silly issues like a female second cousin who can't follow her big bro into the marching band because she can't wear pants... to more important issues like one of my slightly older first cousins who got pregnant as a teenager and was disowned and had to move a town over. Several relatives still look towards me for emotional support, and the knowledge that they aren't hellbound just because their parents or their religion say they are.

But if I were to come out of the atheist closet? Whooo-Boy, I'd have HELL to pay!!! Even if I wasn't hunted down like a dog, in the very least I'd be completely and totally disowned. Well, to be honest, that wouldn't bother me that much. But I'd still like to have a relationship with my niece and a few of my more moderate Christian relatives.

So yeah, I'm proud to be an atheist, and happy to remain in the atheist closet too. A walking contradiction? Perhaps... but I don't care!

Posted by: doctorgoo | April 11, 2007 4:57 PM

At some point his mom is going to find out that she's been viewed over 100,000 times on YouTube and that's just so far today...

Posted by: David Durant | April 11, 2007 5:25 PM

Heck, if I were to come out of the atheist closet to my family, most of them probably wouldn't believe me anyway! *rolls eyes*

I can relate. The issue was forced on me, and people didn't believe me when I finally told them. It was a "phase." "I know that in the future you're going to change your mind," yadda yadda. That was 20 years ago. Then recently someone close to me found out, and flipped out. And I am 42 years old. "Why didn't you bring this up before?" What could I say? "I did say this 20 years ago, and no one believed me." (Shrug)

You don't have to confess anything if you don't want to. You're an adult. You don't owe anybody an explanation.

Posted by: Kristine | April 11, 2007 5:25 PM

I'm not entirely convinced that is real. Seems a bit stagey to me.

Posted by: SteveF | April 11, 2007 5:59 PM

I, too, was raised Roman Catholic. When I was 16, I was to be confirmed in the Church (one of the sacraments). I told my mother I didn't want to, as I wasn't a believer. We went down to the parish priest's office to discuss it. After listening to me, he turned to my mother and told her that it wasn't right to try to pressure me to get confirmed. It was a deeply personal choice, and required the committment of the person being confirmed. Father Joe is a great priest.

Posted by: spiffie | April 11, 2007 6:44 PM

DavidDurant wrote:

At some point his mom is going to find out that she's been viewed over 100,000 times on YouTube and that's just so far today...

Oh my, I bet her head just imploded.

Actually, I saw this from PZ's yesterday and the video had already been removed from Youtube. Luckily someone saved it :D

That kid is going to be in so.much.trouble.

Posted by: Leni | April 11, 2007 7:14 PM

Funny, my (then) wife and one my sisters both flipped out when I came out as a Christian. Funny world, this. Apparently some people are so insecure they can't stand the thought that another person might disagree with their world view.

Posted by: kehrsam | April 11, 2007 7:29 PM

kehrsam -

You should have seen the reaction of some of my friends when I did. A few of them are still convinced that I am just moments away from changing my voters registration to republican. They just cannot believe that one can have the social and political views that I still have, and be a Christian. People in the AIDS group I am a part of, actually thought I should be booted from the organization, when they found out.

Posted by: DuWayne | April 11, 2007 7:42 PM

I don't like Catholicism for many, many, many reasons - the deaths in Africa that result from their opposition to contraception are paramount on this list. But I do think that the kind of sacrifice that most Catholic clergy go through (celibacy, etc.) encourages the kind of thinking that the Catholic faith, specifically, may not be for everybody. I entered the church kind of late - my parents were trying to combat what they saw as nascent atheistic tendencies on my part. So I wasn't confirmed in the normal way - classes and all that. Instead, me and my brother sat down and talked with a monsignor about what it means to be Catholic for an hour each Sunday for a few months. I respect the man enormously, and probably most for his willingness to say 'I don't know' in response to our questions.

Although I wound up being an atheist, and I haven't talked to this monsignor for years, I still think that he would have respected my decision. So, for all the "hard atheists" out there (and I am among your ranks), try to remember that, for all the pedophile priests and bible-thumping preachers, there are many clergy that do critically examine their beliefs - constantly. After all, it's what they've committed their lives to. If they're wrong, they would want to know. And even if you don't respect their actual beliefs, you have to respect the sacrifices they've made in response to them.

Posted by: Brian | April 11, 2007 7:53 PM

Aerik -

I hope you didn't guilt yourself too much over that.

Guilt? Heres the thing, our dad has, if anything, become stronger in his belief that there is no God. I remember that he used to consider himself agnostic, if you ask him today, he would probably say atheist - he certainly speaks in very certain terms about his belief that their simply is no God.

My mom, on the other hand, has steadily become stronger in her faith. She has lost much of the fire of zealotry, that I believe was compensation for shortcomings in her faith. With the loss of that zealotry, she has an absolute "knowing" that her faith is right and true.

I also doubt you will find many marriages more secure than that of my mom and our dad. And yes, the fight has gone on for the last 16-18 years and wages strong today.

And yes, this familial dichotomy has been the cause of some very strange "issues" in my life. Though, I imagine I took the brunt of that, being the baby of the family - I was only two when they got married, thus I had the most time living with them as a couple. . .

I also remember that time rather well. I was actually vasscilated between my fear that Ed would go to hell and the wish that he would burn sooner, rather than later.

Posted by: DuWayne | April 11, 2007 8:00 PM

Howdy all.
I sent you that mail Ed with a question attached.

Howdy from B.C., Canada.
Presently I'm in a discussion based on this video. My question is, does a parent have the legal right to force a child of lets say 14 years of age to go to church against the child's wishes. U.S. court precedence would be nice.

I posted on Richard Dawkins sight the same question since they are having a discussion on this video as well. The poster in reply to my question commented, "Under current interpretation of the US Constitution, a minor cannot be forced to attend religious service against his/her wish. Mandating religious practice for a minor violates her First Amendment rights (specifically, the second prong known as the Free Exercise Clause)." and cited

Reynolds v. United States, 98 U.S. 145 (1878) articulated a belief-action distinction, which its progeny adopted.

Reading over the ruling, the court quoted Jefferson.

In the ruling, the court quoted a letter from Thomas Jefferson in which he stated that there was a distinction between religious belief and action that flowed from religious belief.

So the mother wants the 14year old to go to church so that he can rediscover God. This would compare to the mother's religious belief becoming action when forcing the child to go to church.
Also cited by the same commenter,

As Cantwell v. Connecticut, 310 U.S. 296 (1940) explained, religious belief enjoys absolute protection from First Amendment scrutiny but - pay attention - religious action does not.

In Justice Roberts opinion he states,

The constitutional inhibition of legislation on the subject of religion has a double aspect. On the one hand, it forestalls compulsion by law of the acceptance of any creed or the practice of any form of worship. Freedom of conscience and freedom to adhere to such religious organization or form of worship as the individual may choose cannot be restricted by law. On the other hand, it safeguards the free exercise of the chosen form of religion. Thus the Amendment embraces two concepts,-freedom to believe and freedom to act. The first is absolute but, in the nature of things, the [310 U.S. 296, 304] second cannot be. Conduct remains subject to regulation for the protection of society.

Neither of these cases address parent vs. minor.
I'm looking for a tie breaker if at all possible. Is there case precedence or reason that would allow a child to say no to going to church against his or parents wishes?

Reading practically everything you've wrote here on dispatches I've learned to appreciate your knowledge on constitutional/civil rights issues.

Posted by: Gene Goldring | April 11, 2007 9:23 PM

Gene:

Neither cited case is on point, for the simple reason that this is not an issue of Federal law. The family unit is governed exclusively by state law under its police power. To the best of my knowledge, the First Amendment has never been implicated in a domestic law Order.

In general, minor children are assumed to be under the protection and control of their parents, therfore they really have no choice in the matter. The age at which the child's consent becomes an issue is governed differently in each state.

Many many child custody orders contain language about church attendance (often specifying denomination) and these orders are almost always upheld by Courts of Appeal under the "best interests of the child" standard. I'd cite lots of cases to illustrate, but I need to replace my cd-ROM drive. ;-)

Posted by: kehrsam | April 11, 2007 10:17 PM

Does a parent have the right to force a child to go to church against his or her will?

Yeah, unfortunately.

Can a child make the experience so horrifically bad that the parent will never bring them within 100 feet of a church again?

Absolutely.

And the beauty of it is, if the parent then abuses the child, all the "best interests of the child" crap goes right out the window.

Children have a lot more leverage than they think, they just don't know how to use it without a little guidance. :)

If I were 14 again, and my parents forced me to go to church (knowing what I know now), Every single word out of my mouth would be a four letter word or equivalent.

Posted by: Russell Miller | April 11, 2007 11:12 PM

kehrsam and Russell's answers sound reasonable to me.

Thanks folks. Very much appreciate your time.

( I love this blog site ;) )

Posted by: Gene Goldring | April 11, 2007 11:33 PM

I'm with SteveF. The video looks... practiced.

Posted by: Jim Anderson | April 11, 2007 11:52 PM

Point taken, but let's not get bogged down with Compulsive Centrist Disorder. I guarantee you the people like your wife and sisters who object to someone being a Christian have a way more accurate idea of what they are criticizing than do people like this mother objecting to her son being an atheist.

Let's not forget many people think atheists are immoral reprobates who eat babies for breakfast, torture kittens during their lunch break, and are unqualified to be elected to public office. Anti-Christian bigotry, even as practiced by the most rabid atheist, doesn't approach that level of ignorance.

Posted by: Science Avenger | April 12, 2007 12:29 AM

A little over a year ago if you'd asked me whether my (84-year-old) dad was christian, I would have said "I don't know." Then, in one of our weekly phone calls (homes on opposite sides of the country) when I was ranting about creationists and theocrats, he asked me if I was a christian. I said "no."
He responded, "I don't know if I am either." We then established that he did not believe in the resurrection as fact.
Just a few months later we discovered he was terminally ill. When he died in June, no one, not his kids nor his second wife and her kids, even suggested bringing in the clergy. It was all quite civilized.

Posted by: Gerry L | April 12, 2007 12:35 AM

I'm 21. In college several hundred miles from home. From the get-go I went to church (Evangelical Covenant Church, which is a laid-back flavor of Lutheranism. Popular among people of Scandinavian descent).

When I was little, I had a great interest in Geography (still do to this day). While learning about foreign cultures at the age of 7 or 8, I made 2 important observations:
* There are a number of non-Christian religions, with millions of believers each.
* Each religion claims to be the one true faith, and others range from "misguided" to "heathen scum".
I exercised some critical thinking (and all-too-rare triat these days) and asked myself 'What makes Christianity so special?' Never found an answer. I, by myself, came to the same conclusion that Pascal did in his famous 'wager': Disbelief in God would grant me either damnation or nothingness. Belief in God would grant me paradise or nothingness. Simple risk-assessment was the basis of my dutiful church-going for years afterward, though the lingering doubt remained.

In middle-school, I made friends with people of mixed religious backgrounds (various flavors of Christianity and Judaism, a Hindu and a couple Agnostics). I take pride in hanging out with decent, moral people. They're good folks, each one a better person than I. The just-and-loving God I kept hearing about wouldn't allow my non-Christian friends into the kingdom of heaven, instead banishing them to eternal damnation. The most virtuous of Jews burn while the most crooked Christians are saved? It was as unjust as it was illogical.

I was confirmed at 13, an unusually young age in my church. I didn't have the guts to go against it.

As years have gone by, my interests in both science and history have both affirmed time and time again that my skepticism is not unjustified. A glance into a telescope shows me light from objects that existed tens of thousands of years ago. Dinosaur bones from hundreds of millions of years ago. The more I learn about Christian history the less I am impressed: the Bible was written by mortal Men, not the hand of an omnipotent deity. The scriptures contradict THEMSELVES over a hundred times! The books of the Bible were chosen out of a plethora of other Christian scriptures, with flawed, mortal humans picking the ones that best suited their personal beliefs. Who is to say anything in there now is more valid than the gospel according to Thomas?

In the distant past, religion was simply a way to assign a cause to a seemingly random effect. In the absence of science, that's what people used to give themselves the perception that they had control of the world they lived in. If it rained, or didn't rain it was a God's will. If there was an eclipse it was God's will. The strange movement of planets were interpreted as deities cruising across the heavens. One would think that we've moved on since then, but when dudes like Pat Robertson & Jerry Falwell say 9/11 and hurricaine Katrina were the fault of Gays and other people, it became clear that millions of people still live in the dark ages. Two guys $%@king don't cause hurricaines.

WOW I'm rambling. Maybe I should start my OWN 'blog. O.o
Quick conclusion:
I'm a closeted Atheist. I plan on remaining closeted for the time being because I will be effectively disowned from my Dad's side of the family for renouncing Christianity (my Step-mom's family is full of STRICT Lutherans from Alabama, and my Dad is my Step-mom's puppet). I rely on them for a BIG chunk of my college tuition. When I'm out of college and financially independent, it will be a different story. At least my Mom won't mind (she's still Christian, but really secular).

Posted by: Sven | April 12, 2007 1:52 AM

I've noticed that the converts are usually the more passionate. My parents were raised atheists, so religion for me is an odd ritual that other people do, but doesn't affect me much. Like pinochle or golf.

My stepfather was raised jewish, so he's now the most outspoken atheist in the family. I have a hard time summoning up any genuine indignation against anything so silly.

Posted by: Jacob | April 12, 2007 2:41 AM

Russell Miller: I meant I hope Ed didn't blame himself for what I thought implied a consequential divorce...

Posted by: Aerik | April 12, 2007 3:02 AM

Remember, a christian (Rev. Brent Hawkes, D.D.) gave us same-sex marriage in Canada. The raving fundies may get the majority of the air time, but the majority of the people are quite sensible.

Posted by: Jacob | April 12, 2007 3:05 AM

The comment at the beginning was quite interesting. Something like "We're going to start going to church every week." Wow, it's that important?

I've always worn my beliefs in the open, but never bringing them up on my own. If it came up in conversation I've shared them openly with those who were around with one notable exception.

My mother basically said, "don't say that" when I told her. But we dropped the subject. My wife has been supportive. She doesn't try to convert me and I don't try to convert her. I think we have a nice relationship and we can talk about our beliefs openly.

The one exception? The Baptist minister who lives across the street. I got the feeling that I would get on bad terms if I revealed my beliefs, so I just let them go unstated. I did ask some semi-critical questions which got my wife nervous, however. Fortunately the other neighbors all laughed at that story.

Posted by: bourgeois_rage | April 12, 2007 10:01 AM

Anti-Christian bigotry, even as practiced by the most rabid atheist, doesn't approach that level of ignorance.

I have to disagree here. The majority of Arab-Americans are Christians, but are assumed by many people (not just atheists, of course) to be Muslims. Many Palestinians are Christians. I have a Marionite church in my neighborhood, and people are astounded to learn that Lebanese are Christians, too. Man, if you know anything about Lebanon's history there's no excuse for such ignorance. There are Arab Jews as well; and Christians and Jews in Turkey pray to Allah (because that's just the Arabic word for God).

So many believers of all stripes don't get out and learn about each other, and then they get bent out of shape about atheists. I'm sorry that anyone suffered because they are Christian. Geez, can't please everyone, huh? The human race should just accept decent people for being good enough and leave all the controlling perfectionism behind.

Posted by: Kristine | April 12, 2007 12:22 PM

Hmmm... I'm volunteering at a Christian organisation currently, and while I haven't "come out" about my atheism, I haven't hidden it either. It hasn't been that much of an issue, yet.

Heck, I got a pile of second hand books that they didn't want for $5, which included "Life's Grandeur" and "Eight Little Piggies" amongst a heap of good books about the fossil record. I was also able to buy a Ken Ham book knowing full well that the proceeds were not going to the culture war (proceeds went to a family planning unit that operates on sound principals, not proselytism).

The only thing that potentially worries me, is that sometimes Christians, when I get on well with them and perhaps display some knowledge of theism, the assume I'm Christian. Things are pretty candid between myself and those who I know are Christian.

This may be a bit of an issue if I decide to blog about a little "where have all the babies gone" pamphlet that was left in the op-shop in the free info section (physically separate from and not run by the family planning unit).

Would I be using a privileged position and violating people's trust?

Then there's the whole "me as a teen pretending to be Christian to observe country-Baptist-fundiness for kicks (as well as to spend time with the girls)." I'll probably blog about that though, because same country baptist community has a record of harping on about sex education and I know how well they raise their kids in that respect.

Moral dialemma. Don't you love them?

Posted by: Bruce | April 12, 2007 10:28 PM