Comments

1. #1 kehrsam

   May 29, 2007

   therefore prevent the humiliation of the holy city by devious and marginal groups

   Who would want to humiliate that poor city? On the other hand you would think that cities would get over that sort of thing after three or four thousand years.

   Some years back we had a loacl case where a man was charged with assault on the local Federal Building. We all agreed the building might be capable of ascertaining fear, but was it reasonable? Guaging the feelings of inanimate objects remains more an art than a science.

2. #2 Brandon

   May 29, 2007

   Indeed, there is a small subset of Haredi Jews who are a pimple to our whole culture. Don’t bother pestering them with your relentless logic; these are the same people who sent a representative to the Holocaust denier’s conference in Iran (WTF?). Luckily, there is a snowball’s chance in Hell of this bill passing the Knesset. I’m not worried.

3. #3 Trinary_Code

   May 29, 2007

   “… ultra-orthodox Jewish terrorists … [have] gone on stabbing rampages against gay pride marchers, they’ve tried to kill the mayor of Jerusalem, they’ve set fires in the city and they’ve even planted a bomb at a Tel Aviv police station; they are terrorists ….

   Posted by Ed

   If they have indeed committed such actions, that is deplorable, and yes, they are terrorists. Worldwide though, there is violence on both sides of this issue. The president of the Italian Bishops’ Conference, Archbishop Angelo Bagnasco, has been targetted with death threats by like terrorists on the other side of the issue.
   Several different perspectives on those events are posted here:

   http://www.anglican-mainstream.net/?p=1619

   http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21488263-401,00.html

   http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-4268.html

   None of this violence promotes any sensible resolution of these issues.

   I note as well that gay pride practices a well know tradition in these parades of highly provocative, tasteless and vulgar displays, that could not fill the opponents of gay rights with more revulsion if they were directly calculated to do so – which perhaps they are. If it is the case that this kind of shock is the intent of these gestures, then that is nothing more, in itself, than an attempt at intimidation.

   I don’t think its rocket science that such an “in your face” attitude on the part of a group trying to influence public opinion will do nothing to win them friends or enhance their credibility, and I can’t get my head around how spectacles designed around “shock value”, are supposed to argue in favour the point that that the gay lobby supposedly wants to put across – the common values and life experience of the gay and straight communities. It is as if I tried to convince the public and the government that I have some grievance against them by tying up traffic on the busy downtown streets and shouting obscenities at passersby, waving the finger at them, arguing that I’m just like them (which I don’t think they’ll agree with in those circumstances) and that they are oppressing me by disagreeing with me. Should I be disappointed if I get little sympathy or surprised if I’m charged by the police with disturbing the peace. I don’t think so. Frankly, if there was less of that kind of ugly agitation, the gay lobby would face less opposition. The archbishop’s over-the-top rhetoric is the predictable result of such mindless antics.

   It is terrible that such violence and intimidation is part of this issue, including the reprehensible behaviour of these Jewish extremists (or any other anti-gay extremists), but my sympathies are with the Jerusalem city council.

4. #4 Trinary_Code

   May 29, 2007

   ” … my sympathies are with the Jerusalem city council”

   With the dissenting cabinet ministers’ objections, rather.

5. #5 Ed Brayton

   May 29, 2007

   Trinary_Code wrote:

   I note as well that gay pride practices a well know tradition in these parades of highly provocative, tasteless and vulgar displays, that could not fill the opponents of gay rights with more revulsion if they were directly calculated to do so – which perhaps they are. If it is the case that this kind of shock is the intent of these gestures, then that is nothing more, in itself, than an attempt at intimidation.

   First of all, the fact that you’ve seen a few crazy pictures of over the top antics at some gay pride parades does not mean that they are all that way, or that most people even at the ones that include some of that are that way. Here are dozens of pictures from last year’s Jerusalem Pride event. The only thing shocking you will find there, I’m guessing, is that there’s nothing shocking. The Jerusalem event is about standing up for equal rights; it’s not La Cage Aux Folles. But even if it was, your conclusion that this is an “attempt at intimidation” is patently absurd. Flamboyance is not intimidation; it does not threaten anyone or violate their rights. Intimidation is throwing bags of feces at people who have done absolutely nothing to them. Intimidation is a knife-wielding maniac stabbing as many people as he can at a pride event before being subdued. That’s intimidation. A guy in a pink dress with bad makeup on isn’t hurting or intimidating anyone.

   It is terrible that such violence and intimidation is part of this issue, including the reprehensible behaviour of these Jewish extremists (or any other anti-gay extremists), but my sympathies are with the Jerusalem city council.

   Let me see if I have this straight. Because you’ve seen pictures of other pride parades where people are too “in your face” for your tastes, you have “sympathies” for denying the right to peaceably assemble to other people in an entirely different city whose parades have included very little of such behavior? Is this really a position you want to defend?

6. #6 DuWayne

   May 30, 2007

   Trinary Code -

   I note as well that gay pride practices a well know tradition in these parades of highly provocative, tasteless and vulgar displays, that could not fill the opponents of gay rights with more revulsion if they were directly calculated to do so – which perhaps they are. If it is the case that this kind of shock is the intent of these gestures, then that is nothing more, in itself, than an attempt at intimidation.

   Actually, rather than being an intimidation tactic, they were tactics that did exactly what they were meant to. Get media attention, that both resulted in more awareness and made them safe from bigots that would use violence to try to stop them. Kind of hard to get away with beating the shit out of people, at least in the U.S. with tee vee crews all around. The other purpose of the tactic was to make it clear that gays aren’t going to put up with being second class citizens. You’ll notice that the extreme flamboyance is no longer as prevalent at these sorts of events – not to say they have gone away, just that they have toned down a lot since the late eighties, early nineties.

7. #7 Trinary_Code

   May 30, 2007

   Ed:

   My reference to what you have called (rightly, for the most part) “flamboyance” as “intimidation” is perhaps excessive; but I do maintain that, given such contexts, it is often a form of “provocation” and, as such, a major source of “irritation”. And yes, the Jerusalem parade – based on the pictures of it that you posted – appears to be quite a benign affair as compared to some others that I have heard of or seen, but the kind of displaying that has gone on in a number of such events, can not help but be provocative in a way that is off-putting to all but those who can envision deriving their own pleasure from the kinds of things they depict – and for that reason alone, I can’t understand why the organizers and participants don’t seem to think that its important to represent their cause with a little bit more dignity and gravity. The appeal of things like flamboyance and overt sexual expression are matters of individual taste, and those who are not drawn to a particular partner or type of partner, or to a particular sexual behaviour or a suggestive simulation or depiction of it, are likely to be revolted by a display of it. As a teacher, I find it disturbing to see teenagers acting in sexually provocative ways at school, and I’m sure any of them would feel the same way if they were confronted by a similar display put on in front of them by myself and a colleague, or any other two older adults. And I would still maintain that this kind of thing can, in some cases, run to a form of intimidation, although I will admit that this is probably rare, or altogether exceptional, within the gay rights movement. But however rare that case is, when this sort of thing is done deliberately as a flaunting of convention and standards, as in the case of a show of defiance among teens, the message is often one of deep disrespect to the intended observer.

   In light of this, it would be better if the whole of current Western culture were a little bit more restrained in its attitude toward openly displaying its sexual behaviour. I fault the straight world for this more than the gay – some of whose bizarre behaviours likely being, in my opinion, a response to the provocativeness of heterosexual behaviours whose open displays or overt suggestions are legitimized by society, and that thereby can be taken as generating a double standard. However that may be, I just think that it is legitimate for public authorities to ask people, whoever they may be – straight, gay, bisexual or whatever – to contain some of this. If the Jerusalem Pride Parade is generally free of this, I suppose it can go ahead as planned, but the fact that the Gay Pride movement has some of the baggage that it does, from other parade events that have been held in its name, surely explains some of the apprehension – and outright distrust and dislike – on the part of its opponents. And should those expectations appear likely to be fulfilled, I don’t see any reason why the movement of the event to a place like a University campus is unreasonable.

8. #8 Ed Brayton

   May 30, 2007

   Trinary_code wrote:

   My reference to what you have called (rightly, for the most part) “flamboyance” as “intimidation” is perhaps excessive; but I do maintain that, given such contexts, it is often a form of “provocation” and, as such, a major source of “irritation”.

   Provocation and irritation is obviously not the same thing as intimidation.

   But however rare that case is, when this sort of thing is done deliberately as a flaunting of convention and standards, as in the case of a show of defiance among teens, the message is often one of deep disrespect to the intended observer.

   If there was some history of outright oppression, including routine violence, against straight people by gays then perhaps I might have a bit more sympathy for those who whine about how “disrespected” they are by the sight of gay people doing the same things many straight people do every single day (holding hands or kissing their lover, even being openly sexual in public places such as bars, which straight people do as a matter of routine as well). But given the long and sordid history of anti-gay discrimination and violence in this country, it should hardly come as a shock that some people in the gay community are going to take an attitude of defiance against those who have long sought to harm them and keep them closeted. I don’t particularly like to see it either, and neither do a lot of their fellow gays and lesbians, but it’s pretty predictable and, I think, understandable.

   If the Jerusalem Pride Parade is generally free of this, I suppose it can go ahead as planned, but the fact that the Gay Pride movement has some of the baggage that it does, from other parade events that have been held in its name, surely explains some of the apprehension – and outright distrust and dislike – on the part of its opponents. And should those expectations appear likely to be fulfilled, I don’t see any reason why the movement of the event to a place like a University campus is unreasonable.

   What has happened with the Jerusalem Pride event has nothing – absolutely nothing – to do with any ill behavior on the part of those who’ve participated in the parade. It was not moved to the stadium last year because the government had any desire to protect the public against shameless and excessive displays of sexuality, for the simple reason that there weren’t any and hadn’t been previously. The only reason it was moved was because a group of ultra-orthodox whackos committed terrorist acts to stop it and the police gave in to their terrorism. Instead of trying to blame the victims of that terrorism, perhaps you should be putting the blame the ONLY place it belongs – on the lunatics who planted bombs, set fires and tried to stone the mayor of Jerusalem.

9. #9 Trinary_Code

   May 30, 2007

   Ed:

   You said:

   “… given the long and sordid history of anti-gay discrimination and violence in this country, it should hardly come as a shock that some people in the gay community are going to take an attitude of defiance against those who have long sought to harm them and keep them closeted”.

   (LOL) I’m so glad to see that, after all, we unambiguously agree on something!

   I don’t think I emphasized this idea as strenuously in my last post as you have in your latest response, but this is exactly what I meant when I said:

   “I fault the straight world for this more than the gay – some of whose bizarre behaviours likely being, in my opinion, a response to the provocativeness of heterosexual behaviours whose open displays or overt suggestions are legitimized by society, and that thereby can be taken as generating a double standard”.

   I think it must be extremely difficult for gay people to see the openness with which heterosexual attraction and attachment is displayed and appreciated in society – even though so much of it is fleeting, tentative, provisional and shallow – and to have no corresponding approbation in society for their own experience of attraction and bonding.

   “What has happened with the Jerusalem Pride event has nothing – absolutely nothing – to do with any ill behavior on the part of those who’ve participated in the parade. It was not moved to the stadium last year because the government had any desire to protect the public against shameless and excessive displays of sexuality, for the simple reason that there weren’t any and hadn’t been previously”

   As I noted earlier, this event doesn’t seem outrageous in itself from what I’ve seen in the images you posted which, overall, seem to suggest reason, restraint and composure (and something about that rings a bell, so to speak, in terms of news reports I may have heard about it at the time and forgotten subsequently). In view of that, I’ll do more research on this topic. For that matter, if you have any further info on that particular march, or better yet, on the history of the Gay Pride movement in general that can help to put into a better perspective some of the objections to its methods that I’ve mentioned, I will be happy to read that, and if you want, you can send it to my personal email address, which I believe you have.

   “The only reason it was moved was because a group of ultra-orthodox whackos committed terrorist acts to stop it and the police gave in to their terrorism. Instead of trying to blame the victims of that terrorism, perhaps you should be putting the blame the ONLY place it belongs – on the lunatics who planted bombs, set fires and tried to stone the mayor of Jerusalem”

   In the end, responsibility is almost always “personal”. No self-respecting or self-aware individual can blame society or the environment around it in disregard of their own, self-determined, action; choice is everything. The Jewish policemen, and the Orthodox fanatics, sin – in the breaking of God’s law (which imparts mercy), in the elevation of brute force over God’s lovingkindness, and in the loss of faith in the power of his grace to remake the world. They have emptied themselves of their very soul. This is the very worst fate for the Jew – to be shown to be, in the end, no better than any of the other nations. And this is, indeed, with all due respect to the great tradition of Judaism, what has been shown of these faithless and pathetic men.

10. #10 Ruvy in Jerusalem

    June 13, 2007

    Awww, are those bad people hurting your precious little feelings? Why, exactly, is anyone supposed to care? The only thing that will humiliate the “holy city” is caving in to the ultra-orthodox Jewish terrorists (yes, that term is chosen on purpose – they’ve gone on stabbing rampages against gay pride marchers, they’ve tried to kill the mayor of Jerusalem, they’ve set fires in the city and they’ve even planted a bomb at a Tel Aviv police station; they are terrorists) to soothe their feelings.

    Another supposed know-it all, another ignoramus from America pontificating on things he neither knows nor understands. For all of your quotes, you know nothing about Israeli culture. So, let’s educate you.

    1. The MAJORITY of the people in Jerusalem are disgusted by these parades, foisted upon us by the secular elites from their offices in Tel Aviv. What the scum in Tel Aviv do is their business – to a degree. For believers, public displays of sin – AND HOMOSEXUAL BEHAVIOR IS SIN ACCORDING TO LEVITICUS – brings upon us in this land, the wrath of G-d. See Leviticus 18:25. But the religious establishment is willing to compromise – allowing the pagan pigs to roll in their mud in Tel Aviv, while insisting on some level of decorum in Jerusalem.

    2. Politicians do not view themselves a accountable to anybody in Israel. Olmert, who got his ass royally kicked by a bunch of second rate terrorists in northern Lebanon, and is getting it kicked now by fourth rate idiot terrorists in Gaza, has not quit after embarrassing us, himself and disgracing the IDF. What does this mean?

    If you want a politician to pay attention in Israel, you need to do something that gets his attention. A riot that sends cops to the hospital gets the attention of the police very fast, and they get on the ass of the politicians – very fast. Those riots – and the opposition of the Vatican AND Moslem clerics – were the main reason the “promiscuity parade” in J-lem was cancelled last year. A “compromise” was reached by which the gays could gather in the stadium in Giv’at Ram. But they had to not bother the police for another 18 months for a permit. As you can see the Ford Foundation financed Open House does not believe in sticking to agreements. It believes in following the agenda of the Ford Foundation – bringing down Judaism in Israel, amongst other things. Remember? Ford Foundation? As in the anti-Semite, Henry Ford?

    In short, if it takes terrorism – your word – to fight what is arguably foreign intervention in the internal affairs of this country – so be it. So, we’ll have to be terrorists.

    Getting rid of American influence here is a worth while cause.

    Before you get on your high horse and bitch about all your precious taxpayer dollars that go to provide us with M16′s that jam, second rate uniforms and boots, and which make the politicians here nothing but your ass kissers, remember that if you write you congressmaggot telling him that you want foreign aid to Israel cancelled, you will have my full support.

    Take your trash, your money and your interfering attitudes, and get the hell out of my country! We have our nukes and will rely on them – not you.

11. #11 DuWayne

    June 13, 2007

    Ruvy -

    It doesn’t really matter a damned bit, what the majority wants. The fact that the majority want to oppress others, doesn’t make it right. Spouting scripture, to justify your insanity, including your support of terrorism, is not going to convince a lot of people that you are right, though it would likely turn people off to the bible, if they weren’t already.

    What an absolute cretin you are, honestly, that is all that you are. I don’t know what else to say to someone who fully admits to being so entirely, morally repugnant, as you do here.

12. #12 Ruvy in Jerusalem

    June 13, 2007

    DuWayne,

    I’m not interested in what you think. What foreigners like you overseas think is not worth bothering over. It is what we Jews do in our homeland that matters.

    I’m not interested in convincing you. I do not have to defend my morality to the likes of you. In fact, the time may well come when you have to defend your morality to the likes of me.

    However, what the majority wants does matter. And for many in Jerusalem, this is a matter of life or death. Not because of what you think as a foreigner overseas, but because of what the Bible tells us as a majority at home. You are just a pathetic outsider with no clue of what he is talking about – just like Ed Brayton is.

    The Chapter 18 of the Book of Leviticus warns not to indulge in this behavior in the Holy Land because the Canaanites were vomited out because of this behavior. So publicly tolerating a display of homosexuality, for many believers in this city, is the equivalent of spitting in G-d’s face. This they will not allow. The police knew that they could not fire into an angry crowd of Hareidim to protect homosexuals without risking a revolution or a civil war here. That was the position they were in last November. And that is the position they will be in now. And that is why it is so important what the majority of the population here thinks.

    It is irrelevant whether the Bible is true or not. Enough Hareidim believe it is true and understand very well what it says to be willing to bring this city to a standstill over an issue like this.

    So read, and learn.

13. #13 DuWayne

    June 13, 2007

    Ruvy -

    The thought that there is something a lunatic like you, who is bereft of any sense of morality, has something to teach me, is laughable. As for the bible, I have read it, several times through. Sin, such as it is, is between me and God.

    But what you are praising here, is human rights abuse, pure and simple. The irony of Jews calling for such human rights abuses is overwhelming. A truly dark and evil sort of irony to be sure. It boggles the mind that you can call this attitude Holy.

    What exactly, is the difference between you and Islamic fundamentalists, who also engage in/call for, acts of terrorism? Down to your justifications, you are both the same.

    As for outsiders sticking our noses in, it is the responsibility of everyone to fight human rights abuses. Whether they occur in Rwanda, Darfur, Germany or Israel, such abuses are an affront to humanity and must be treated as such.

14. #14 Ruvy in Jerusalem

    June 13, 2007

    DuWayne,

    I leave you to rot glory in your ignorance. If you want to be an American buttinsky in Rwanda, Darfur, Thailand, India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Russia or Germany, you have my blessings. Stay out of what you do not understand.

15. #15 DuWayne

    June 13, 2007

    Ruvy -

    It is not for you to decide what I should stick my nose into. I will speak out against human rights abuses, wherever they occur. I understand full well your position. You want to do the same thing to gays, that the Germans did to the Jewish people, so long ago. You want to commit acts of terrorism no different from the acts of terrorism that Islamic fundies commit against Israel. In short, you wish to combat perceived evil, with actual evil and wish to do so, while hiding behind the tyranny of the majority, exactly the way the Nazis did, when they commited these kind of acts against the Jews.

    Mark this, I understand completely what you are talking about. It is evil, pure and simple. It is also rank hypocrisy, of the highest order.

16. #16 Ruvy in Jerusalem

    June 18, 2007

    Duwayne,

    You haven’t a clue about what hypocrisy is – and isn’t. You’re just a stupid American who thinks that because something is good for him in America, it’s automatically good for everybody else. Sorry dimwit. Your Amero-centric points of view only display your provinciality, ignorance and naÏveté.

    In America, there is a vast amount of discrimination against gay people. It comes in the form of denying them health insurance at group rates, property rights and a host of other forms of economic discrimination based on the fact that many tax breaks and subsidies go to couples; by definition in America, unless the law provides otherwise, a couple cannot be gay. In addition, the military in your country discriminates against gay men and women.

    This is just not true in Israel. Very few subsidies or tax breaks are based on marital status or “couplehood”. Health insurance is universal by law, and property is not sold to couples, but to individuals. Joint tenancy in Israel is not a function of being part of a couple. It is a function of having joint responsibility to pay property taxes, and therefore enjoying the rights of joint tenancy under English common law.

    THIS MEANS THAT GAY MARRIAGE IS A SYMBOLIC ISSUE HERE, MEANT TO SIR UP SYMPATHY AND CONTROVERSY – NOTHING MORE!

    In addition, nobody, and that includes me, gives a damn if the Jew next to him defending his country is gay or straight. What is important is that the bullet that comes out of the gunbarrel travels straight, doesn’t queer, and kills the enemy – like the bastards bombarding Kiryat Shmoneh as I write this. Finally, and this is rather important for you ignorant American buttinskies to fully comprehend, in many schools, particularly the religious ones like the ones my sons attend, the gay kids are the strongest ones. This means that if you wish to keep your teeth, you do not indulge in gay bashing. This is not so true in the secular schools which are mixed sex, and there, there is gay bashing – along with “lunch taxes,” rapes, illegitimate pregnancies, and drugs being sold and used widely; kids imitating YOUR sick pornographic culture.

    It is not for nothing that eliminating American influence in this country would be a good idea.

    It made sense for gays in New York bars, picked on all the time by the NYPD, to riot and attack their oppressors. The commemoration of those riots, when gays showed that they had pride in themselves, is the root of the Gay Pride Parade in New York, and a parade there, to remind everybody that they were people just like everybody else, is most appropos.

    Bear in mind that your nation still discriminates against gays in the areas of insurance, wherever “couplehood” extends an economic benefit, and in the militarey. All this is not and never has been true in the Jewish resettlement of Israel.

    If you were not a fuckin’ hypocrite, you would concentrate on the lack of economic rights for gays in your own country instead of piggy backing upon an organization (Open House) funded by the anti-Israel and anti-Jewish Ford Foundation, which, as part of its agenda, is the backing of the Arab cause here. The agenda of the Ford Foundation is the downfall of the hated Jews. The Foundation is still the child of its Jew-hating founder, Henry Ford.

    So why is there a gay pride parade in Israel at all? To imitate a sick decadent America that is a cancerous influence all over the world.

    Finally, to make this absolutely clear. I do not give a rat’s ass about how gays behave overseas. America is not a holy land with a religious (but NOT civil) ban on displays of homosexual public behavior. Israel is. That is what my reference to the Torah is all about. It is displays of public homosexual behavior that the Torah focuses on, because it makes this behavior a capital crime – and a capital crime requires witnesses. Homosexual orgies were the norm in Canaanite temples and therefore had witnesses. A pride parade is just another version of a homosexual orgy. The god being worshiopped is the sick western culture that is eating away at so many other countries, rotting their moral values in favor of a shopping mall “what’s in it for me right now,” “my way right away” mentality.

    It stinks and it sucks. Keep it within your own borders. And like I told Ed Brayton, before you get on your high horse and bitch about all your precious taxpayer dollars that go to provide us with M16′s that jam, second rate uniforms and boots, and which make the politicians here nothing but your ass kissers, remember that if you write you congressmaggot telling him that you want foreign aid to Israel cancelled, you will have my full support.

    Take your trash, your money and your interfering attitudes, and get the hell out of my country! We have our nukes and will rely on Before you get on your high horse and bitch about all your precious taxpayer dollars that go to provide us with M16′s that jam, second rate uniforms and boots, and which make the politicians here nothing but your ass kissers, remember that if you write you congressmaggot telling him that you want foreign aid to Israel cancelled, you will have my full support.

    Take your trash, your money and your interfering attitudes, and get the hell out of my country! We have our nukes and will rely on G-D and on them – not you.