Ed Brayton is a freelance writer and speaker. He is the co-founder and president of 
There are several updates at the bottom
Yesterday, for the first time ever, a Hindu chaplain opened the Senate's daily session with a Hindu prayer. This seems to have bunched the panties of Christian Nation apologist David Barton.
WallBuilders president David Barton is questioning why the U.S. government is seeking the invocation of a non-monotheistic god. Barton points out that since Hindus worship multiple gods, the prayer will be completely outside the American paradigm, flying in the face of the American motto "One Nation Under God."
Mind you, when we criticize the fact that the Senate begins every other day with a Christian prayer, we are accused of trying to destroy religious freedom. When any other type of prayer is offered, this magically has nothing at all to do with religious freedom. Silly Hindus, don't you realize that only Christians get to have the official government imprimatur upon their religion? You just sit back and enjoy your cheeseburger and let the Christians pray.
But wait, it gets better. Three whackos from a religious right group called Operation Save America decided to disrupt the Hindu invocation and got hauled away by the police:
The three protesters, who all belong to the Christian Right anti-abortion group Operation Save America, and who apparently traveled to Washington all the way from North Carolina, interrupted by loudly asking for God's forgiveness for allowing the false prayer of a Hindu in the Senate chamber."Lord Jesus, forgive us father for allowing a prayer of the wicked, which is an abomination in your sight," the first protester began.
"This is an abomination," he continued. "We shall have no other gods before You."
Senator Bob Casey (D-PA), serving as the presiding officer for the morning, immediately ordered them taken away -- though they continued to yell at the Hindu cleric as they were headed out the door, shouting out phrases such as, "No Lord but Jesus Christ!" and "There's only one true God!"
That blog has video of the disruption, but it's not posted yet. The whackos then put out a press release that reads:
Ante Pavkovic, Kathy Pavkovic, and Kristen Sugar were all arrested in the chambers of the United States Senate as that chamber was violated by a false Hindu god. The Senate was opened with a Hindu prayer placing the false god of Hinduism on a level playing field with the One True God, Jesus Christ. This would never have been allowed by our Founding Fathers."Not one Senator had the backbone to stand as our Founding Fathers stood. They stood on the Gospel of Jesus Christ! There were three in the audience with the courage to stand and proclaim, 'Thou shalt have no other gods before me.' They were immediately removed from the chambers, arrested, and are in jail now. God bless those who stand for Jesus as we know that He stands for them." Rev. Flip Benham, Director, Operation Save America/Operation Rescue.
I'm popping some popcorn. Can't wait to see the rest of this show.
Update: Here's the video:
Update #2: a religious right former Navy chaplain is shocked - SHOCKED - that those who interrupted the event were arrested:
Klingenschmitt was in the Senate gallery earlier today to witness the prayer being given by the Hindu chaplain -- a prayer that was interrupted twice by individuals in the gallery. "About 50 feet away from me there were these other Christian people [who] stood up like everybody else ... and they began to pray also," he recalls. "But [they] prayed Christian prayers, and they prayed out loud -- and they prayed in Jesus' name. They said 'God have mercy on our nation. God have mercy on America.'""He explains what he then witnessed in the Senate chamber. "Would you believe that the security office immediately escorted them out and hauled them off to jail because they prayed in Jesus' name, out loud, when this other man was praying a Hindu prayer out loud?" he shares. "He was praying a prayer of idolatry, violating the First Commandment [which says] 'Thou shalt have no other gods before me," he continues. "In contrast, these Christian people, they stood up and they just prayed in Jesus' name."
Klingenschmitt says the Hindu chaplain finished his prayer after the two were escorted from the gallery. He offers this assessment: "[A]pparently one kind of prayer is permitted and even honored on the floor of the Senate; the other kind of prayer is seen as disruptive."
Well yes, you dolt, when one person is invited to be there and those in the gallery try to shout them down, they're seen as disruptive. It has nothing to do with the content of the prayers. If they had stood up and started yelling baseball scores from last night's Sportscenter, they would still have been arrested. If 3 Hindus stood up and started shouting Hindu prayers during an invited Christian invocation, would this halfwit be so stunned to find out they were arrested? Of course not.
t all goes back to the same thing that should be painfully obvious to everyone by now: it doesn't have a damn thing to do with religious freedom. Their goal is an exclusively Christian country where only Christianity gets recognized and endorsed by the government.
Update #3: Yet another fevered and absurd reaction from the religious right, this time from Jan Markell who says this morning's Hindu prayer will let the terrorists win:
an Markell of Olive Tree Ministries says she's absolutely outraged that Hindu chaplain Rajan Zed was pegged to deliver the opening prayer of the U.S. Senate this morning. The director of the pro-Israel ministry is concerned about the consequences of allowing someone to open the day's business in the Senate by referencing Hindu scriptures and praying to over 300 million gods...Markell says this reminds her of what happened in the Old Testament when the people of Israel turned to other gods. "When Israel went straying and worshiping other gods, very, very serious consequences came down upon her," the ministry leader points out.
"I think that America is at a turning point," Markell continues. "The head of Homeland Security himself, [Michael] Chertoff, said he's very concerned about some sort of a major strike here this summer in America. And so instead of turning to the God who defends and protects America, just like Israel we go chasing off after other gods who cannot protect us."
Funny Jan, but that same chamber has begun with prayers to your bodyguard god every day for two centuries or nore. One prayer to the "deity supreme" is enough to cancel out 60,000 prayers to the right god? And if prayers to your god to protect us work, where was he on September 11th? Perhaps he takes Tuesdays off. Or perhaps we shouldn't rely on sky gods to protect us.
Comments
How in the world did this even get started? I'm flabberghasted that a Hindu prayer was brought in at all. Who called for it and who approved it? Have we actually elected anyone Hindu to Congress?
Posted by: Michael Suttkus, II | July 12, 2007 4:14 PM
How "Christian" of them to act in such a manner. Would Jesus have approved of this?
Posted by: Michele | July 12, 2007 4:28 PM
Michael, anyone can apply for permission to give the morning prayer. It was Zed's idea to do it, and it was approved of by the Senate Chaplain. I'm actually surprised we haven't had a hindu prayer before (although I probably shouldn't be).
Posted by: Diogenes | July 12, 2007 4:34 PM
The video is posted now. The chaplain prays to the "deity supreme". That's generic enough to be any God or god.
Posted by: Royale | July 12, 2007 4:34 PM
What were the senators' responses to the Hindu prayer? Did Virgil Goode keep his mouth shut the whole time?
Posted by: Brandon | July 12, 2007 4:42 PM
I'm interested by Mr. Barton's admission that "One Nation Under God"* is not in fact "ceremonial deism", but rather an explicit endorsement of a specific sectarian religious belief.
Isn't that the sort of thing you're not supposed to admit in public?
* Not in fact the national motto. The national motto, as of 1956, is "In God We Trust". Either OneNewsNow/AgapePress made an error, or Mr. Barton seems to have his rhetorical wires crossed in several places.
Posted by: Coin | July 12, 2007 4:43 PM
The comments available at the initial link were highly entertaining, until I remembered that these people live on the same planet I do.
Posted by: Kevin W. Parker | July 12, 2007 4:51 PM
Michael,
I am curious - why do you ask whether or not a Hindu has ever been elected to the Senate? What is the relevance to the question of whether or not it is appropriate or inappropriate to have a Hindu prayer to open the session?
Posted by: Andrea | July 12, 2007 4:54 PM
Andrea,
I asked because I was operating under the false assumption that a senator had to invite the pray-er. Anyone who kicked over that anthill would have my respect, but if a non-Hindu had invited him, he would have had my admiration.
Now I'm curious, though. Have we ever elected anyone who wasn't of the Big Three Abrahamic religions?
*checks*
Hmm, not many. According to the inerrant Wikipedia, all have been Christians or Jews, except for one Muslem, one Sikh, two Buddhists (only one practicing), one non-theistic Unitarian, and rumors that one person is secretly a Scientologist. No Hindus yet. Still, it seems that all of our diversity is current, so at least the country is getting better.
Of course, I strongly suspect the true worship of most politicians is of the little green god.
Posted by: Michael Suttkus, II | July 12, 2007 5:16 PM
Correction: I read too quickly. Not all of the mentioned religions are currently represented in Congress.
Posted by: Michael Suttkus, II | July 12, 2007 5:21 PM
"Lord Jesus, forgive us father for allowing a prayer of the wicked, which is an abomination in your sight," the first protester began.
Oh noes, the sanctity of prayer has been destroyed! Oh noooooooeeeees. Don't worry Jesus forgave everybody and everything is okay now. :-)
Mind you, when we criticize the fact that the Senate begins every other day with a Christian prayer, we are accused of trying to destroy religious freedom.
What they really mean when they say "religion" is "my religion". They can't mean anybody else's religion because they have those ten commandment thingies by which they are commandedeth to obeyeth.
Posted by: 386sx | July 12, 2007 5:25 PM
"I'm interested by Mr. Barton's admission that "One Nation Under God"* is not in fact "ceremonial deism", but rather an explicit endorsement of a specific sectarian religious belief.
Isn't that the sort of thing you're not supposed to admit in public?"
Barton doesn't hide his theocratic tendancies. In his book "Original Intent" he positively cites an obscure 1838 blasphemy conviction that would otherwise be a curious anachronism. The impression is that Barton believes that state governments should have the power to put people in jail for their religious opinions.
Posted by: Bill Jarrell | July 12, 2007 5:27 PM
Per CNN, guest chaplain Rajan Zed was invited by Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid.
Posted by: PennyBright | July 12, 2007 5:31 PM
Hinduism is a monotheistic religion. People's ignorance fails to do a simple research on Hinduism.
Posted by: Sam | July 12, 2007 5:33 PM
In response, I'd love for one Senator to have the balls to invite a Wiccan, a Buddhist, a Scientologist and an atheist to do the daily invocation. Have the speakers be soldiers or vets to really stick their noses in it.
Posted by: Jeff | July 12, 2007 6:00 PM
The AFA thought this was so important that they sent out a AFA ActionAlert yesterday.
It was a nice change of pace from the normal "Boycott Ford" e-mails they send out.
Posted by: yoshi | July 12, 2007 6:02 PM
As Sam says, Hinduism (in some forms) is monotheistic. Christianity, on the other hand, especially in its Roman Catholic and Orthodox forms, arguably is not. Thank goodness that monotheism is in fact irrelevant. Imagine the endless and nasty debates we would have about who was really entitled to give the invocation.
Posted by: Bill Poser | July 12, 2007 6:04 PM
Hinduism is either monotheistic or polytheistic depending on who you talk to. Many Hindus are henotheists. They believe in one supreme Godhead and a number of lesser deities. These lesser deities are believed to be manifestations of the Godhead or they are seperate beings representing the Godhead.
Posted by: Bill Jarrell | July 12, 2007 6:05 PM
One minor quibble. Hindus do not worship 'multiple gods' in a literal sense. The 'multiple gods' are different manifestations of the same god. You could look it up.
Not that I would expect Barton to criticize something on the basis of having real knowledge about what he is criticizing.
Since there was nothing in the media today about Paris Hilton, Britney, Jessica or Brangelina I can only surmise that this Hindu prayer is the single most pressing issue facing America today... or something like that.
Posted by: Frank Frink | July 12, 2007 6:10 PM
That's part of it, but it is also true that Hinduism is not a unitary religion. There are different forms of Hinduism, and they have changed over time as well.
Posted by: Bill Poser | July 12, 2007 6:11 PM
"Not that I would expect Barton to criticize something on the basis of having real knowledge about what he is criticizing."
All that matters to Barton(and others like him) is that it isn't Christian. If Barton really wants to go back to the past he'd have to object to Catholic priests saying prayers.
Posted by: Bill Jarrell | July 12, 2007 6:25 PM
I find it astounding that anyone cares about this at all. It does show that all the talk of religous freedom in the USA is complete hogwash. Has the Senate ever considered opening their daily session without any prayer or just letting every Senator have a couple of minutes for private prayer if they think it is of any value? Of course you would think that Senators would do that on their own time rather than wasting the publics.
Posted by: CanuckRob | July 12, 2007 6:32 PM
Hell, I'd have been quite impressed by it! After all, since last night was the night after the All-Star game, it's the one and only night during this 6 month period that WON'T have baseball scores on Sportcenter.
Posted by: doctorgoo | July 12, 2007 6:32 PM
"The Senate was opened with a Hindu prayer placing the false god of Hinduism on a level playing field with the One True God, Jesus Christ."
Still cracks me up. No affirmative action for deities!
Posted by: Jim Anderson | July 12, 2007 6:35 PM
I believe Thomas Jefferson qualifies as a Founding Father, does he not? He once wrote:
Posted by: The Ridger | July 12, 2007 6:57 PM
-- Where is to be found Theology more orthodox or Phylosophy more profound than in the Introduction to the Shast[r]a [a Hindu Treatise]? "God is one, creator of all, Universal Sphere, without beginning, without End. God Governs all the Creation by a General Providence, resulting from his eternal designs -- Search not the Essence and the nature of the Eternal, who is one; Your research will be vain and presumptuous. It is enough that, day by day, and night by night, You adore his Power, his Wisdom and Goodness, in his Works." --
-- John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, December 25, 1813.
Heh.
Posted by: Jon Rowe | July 12, 2007 7:01 PM
The fact that these hecklers did what they did sickens me to the stomach. I find nothing to laugh about. Fanatic Christians sicken me to the stomach. All the missinformed and bigoted comments made by them really shows thier true colors. One good thing did come of this. People will really begin to see that fanatic Christians are no better than the fanatic of other religions. Hopefully any validity that they achieved will be destroyed by such blatent acts of disrespect, bigotry, and hatred.
Posted by: Mark Demeter | July 12, 2007 7:05 PM
> The impression is that Barton believes that state
> governments should have the power to put people in jail for
> their religious opinions.
*sigh*
Would you care to post a citation and explain why you think this is the case - ie care to back up your statement at all...?
Posted by: David Durant | July 12, 2007 7:10 PM
This is precisely why they should have been laughed out of the room.
Posted by: David Marjanović | July 12, 2007 7:25 PM
Back in the 1950s, there was a fellow from India who represented a congressional district in the Imperial Valley of California. I don't know whether he was a practicing Hindu however.
Posted by: SLC | July 12, 2007 7:34 PM
David Durant -
Read the comment again, he does mention the book in which Barton cites an 1838 blasphemy conviction as a positive thing. That would lend itself to the assumption that Barton believes the state should have the authority to jail, or at least convict someone, in a court of law, for their religious opinions. From what I have read of Barton, it would certainly be in character. He certainly makes no bones about fighting religious freedom, unless it means freedom to worship the Christian God, as one sees fit.
Posted by: DuWayne | July 12, 2007 7:48 PM
SLC, it appears that you are referring to Mr. Dalip Singh Saund, who would have been the "one Sikh" who Michael Suttkus mentioned above.
Posted by: Coin | July 12, 2007 7:49 PM
Posted by: PMembrane | July 12, 2007 7:53 PM
now here is a christian fundamentalist ...later we will se fanatic and then extremist and at last christian terrorist .so this disease is spreading in christian also .
Posted by: amit | July 12, 2007 7:53 PM
"No gods before me" indeed.
Posted by: PMembrane | July 12, 2007 8:01 PM
Ed, quoting the wacko hecklers' press release:
The Senate was opened with a Hindu prayer placing the false god of Hinduism on a level playing field with the One True God, Jesus Christ. This would never have been allowed by our Founding Fathers.
Remember another entry on Dispatch where Ed decried the fact that while it seems that Americans support the Constitution in opinion polls, not a lot of them are particularly familiar with it?
Looks like his point was made, and in spades.
Posted by: Chris Krolczyk | July 12, 2007 8:08 PM
Obviously the one-size-fits-all divinity, proclaimed on coin and cash, gives Xofascists the fits.
I'd be happy to go up to the Hill on 31 October to offer prayer with Frank Zappa's "Invocation and ritual dance of the young pumpkin."
eye-of-horus
Posted by: eye-of-horus | July 12, 2007 8:16 PM
Hawaii has had public prayer led by Buddhists and Hindus and god didn't up and throw them into the middle of the Pacific Ocean. Oh, wait......
Posted by: wrpd | July 12, 2007 8:30 PM
Re coin
Mr. coin is correct, I was referring to Mr. Saund. As I said, I didn't know if he was a Hindu and it seems he was not.
Posted by: SLC | July 12, 2007 9:02 PM
hmmm...
TruGodMoon comes to the senate office building - no peep outa the fundies.
And according to Klingenschmitt, a bomb thrower from the gallery, who prayed, "Jesus, blow them all to hell!" after killing congress-critters would be being persecuted because he prayed in Jesus' name. The 60 dead senators,not the issue.
Posted by: SharonB | July 12, 2007 9:44 PM
I wonder if these Christians have ever comtemplated John 10:16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; New American Standard or John 5:22 or
Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,
Or the Words of Jesus when he said "Judge not no ye be not judged" in the Sermon on the Mount
Posted by: Vern Usher | July 12, 2007 10:15 PM
Mr. Brayton, that's the same Klingenschmitt who occasionally comments on Volokh's Religion Law listserv, of course. You know, the guy who claimed to be standing up only for the right to pray as he saw fit, without crimping anyone else's prayers . . .
"Kristen Sugar?" Shouldn't that be the name of a porn actress?
Posted by: Ed Darrell | July 12, 2007 11:55 PM
I wish these folks would finally have their silly rapture and be out of here. Leave the rest of us in peace.
And I wonder whether the story will even make it into the mainstream press -- the hindu prayer, not the rapture.
Posted by: Gerry L | July 13, 2007 12:57 AM
As Royale points out, the speech refers only to 1) Supreme Deity, and 2) Lord, both of which are generic terms that can be applied by anyone based on their beliefs. Those who know even a little about Hinduism will not be surprised, because despite all the claims of Hinduism being a polytheistic religion, Hindus believe in a single creator. Every other "God" (Hindus define God very differently from the Abrahamic religions) is a personification of a force of nature, emotion, etc. Just like bread is considered Jesus' body, most 'Gods' are symbols of a natural phenomena.
Hinduism at the end believes that there is an undefined force behind the universe, which could be the Christian God, Allah, Zeus, or just a simple mathematical law. Hinduism has not bothered to define it, since it does not believe that man can conceive of it. All the other 'gods' you hear about are nothing but anthropomorphisms of basic human qualities.
Posted by: addicted | July 13, 2007 2:36 AM
Oh man, I want to see someone actually do this. It would be a hell of a filibuster: start the Senate proceedings by individually invoking every deity on the planet.
Posted by: Morgan | July 13, 2007 4:37 AM
Mr. Brayton, that's the same Klingenschmitt who occasionally comments on Volokh's Religion Law listserv, of course. You know, the guy who claimed to be standing up only for the right to pray as he saw fit, without crimping anyone else's prayers . . .
Oh yeah that's the Klingenschmitt who says he was court-martialed for praying in Jesus' name but he really was court-martialed for this:
Posted by: 386sx | July 13, 2007 5:06 AM
This sequence of events only serves to demonstrate how foolish and wrong the practice of having any kind of prayer in the Senate is in the first place. The over-the-top behavior of these protesters reflect the fact that they feel that the Senate is endorsing a religion other than their own by having an official prayer led by a Hindu. Of course, exactly the same complaint could be made by any non-Christian any day of the week.
Do we think that the case can be made for symmetry here? Namely that all the Christians who feel upset and uncomfortable seeing one prayer of a different religion in the Senate, or indeed any government building, should consider the effect of daily prayers, invocations of a deity, and the "National Day of Prayer" are viewed by people outside the ruling sects of American Christians.
As Coin notes, this event shows how much the incorporation of religious observance into daily government work, which was dismissed as "ceremonial deism" by the Supreme Court some decades back, is in fact meaningful religious practice.
And the government really shouldn't be in that business at all.
Posted by: RickD | July 13, 2007 9:13 AM
Here's the actual invocation that the Hindu priest used (according to the Times of India):
I wonder what there is in this prayer could possibly be offensive to Christians?
Posted by: Alex | July 13, 2007 9:31 AM
Trackback: http://tinyurl.com/27pzjj
I cannot get trackback links on any of the ScienceBlogs sites to work. I've contacted them repeatedly with no luck.
Posted by: vjack | July 13, 2007 9:34 AM
The bigotry and viciousness that characterise so-called monotheistic religions is Nothing surprising . To us in India , to many thounsads of years of Hindu tradition , the whole Earth and its space is a sacred space for all living beings to grow and prosper.
The world has been drenched in blood by crusades and jihads and it is time the truest religious democracy prevail in the form of the ancient and timeless vedic thought - also called Hinduism since 800 years.
If a pure prayer for light , truth and righteousness is condemned as abominable , it only reflects how dark the minds of the bigotry are.
Posted by: Rudra | July 13, 2007 12:37 PM
The bigotry and viciousness that characterise so-called monotheistic religions is Nothing surprising . To us in India , to many thounsads of years of Hindu tradition , the whole Earth and its space is a sacred space for all living beings to grow and prosper.
The world has been drenched in blood by crusades and jihads and it is time the truest religious democracy prevail in the form of the ancient and timeless vedic thought - also called Hinduism since 800 years.
If a pure prayer for light , truth and righteousness is condemned as abominable , it only reflects how dark the minds of the bigoted are.
Posted by: Rudra | July 13, 2007 12:37 PM
The bigotry and viciousness that characterise so-called monotheistic religions is Nothing surprising . To us in India , to many thounsads of years of Hindu tradition , the whole Earth and its space is a sacred space for all living beings to grow and prosper.
The world has been drenched in blood by crusades and jihads and it is time the truest religious democracy prevail in the form of the ancient and timeless vedic thought - also called Hinduism since 800 years.
If a pure prayer for light , truth and righteousness is condemned as abominable , it only reflects how dark the minds of the bigoted are.
Posted by: Rudra | July 13, 2007 12:41 PM
This is going to knock your socks off, Ed, but Nathan Bradfield, ever the objective and insightful political and legal analyst, says you botched this one.
Posted by: kemibe | July 13, 2007 12:43 PM
Can't somebody organise a contest - Elijah vs Prophets of Ba'al sort of thing, with the wet firewood and all? That would sort out who's right and who isn't.
Posted by: Gav | July 13, 2007 1:26 PM
Yep, he posted it on the STACLU site as well. LoL.
Posted by: Michael S. Clark | July 13, 2007 1:36 PM
It would be a hell of a filibuster: start the Senate proceedings by individually invoking every deity on the planet.Only if you accept hearsay. If you insist on evidence for said deities, the list is quite manageable. <grin>
Posted by: Reality Czech | July 13, 2007 1:45 PM
Sorry about that, something happened to my blockquote tags.
Posted by: Reality Czech | July 13, 2007 1:48 PM
Namasthe: They are protesting out of fear, fear that many will be interested in a CULTURE/RELIGION like Hinduism; fear that people will try to educate themselves about other religions and cultures.
They shouted...."There's only one true God!" Very true.
Hindu scriptures state, "There is ONE & ONLY God and that God expresses itself in trillions of forms. That is the reason why Hindus have no problem worshiping that God as Krishna, or Jesus or Allah or Jehovah...
NOBODY HAS MONOPOLY ON TRUTH OR GOD. God and truth are universal. There is no such thing as a Christian God and a Hindu God or a Jewish God.
A person should be able to read and enjoy the immortal teachings of Jesus Christ along with Bhagavad Gita, Koran as well as all other great religious scriptures in the world. That is the only way, we can have peace on this planet.
Posted by: AM I A HINDU? | July 13, 2007 1:56 PM
This news story makes a great companion piece to Michael Gerson's Washington Post's editorial called What Atheists Can't Answer. His question is, though many atheists are good people of their own free will, nothing in the absence of religion holds people accountable for their behavior.
Spoiler alert. It's called the law. Not surprised Gerson didn't think of it. He's the genius who came up with axis of evil for W.
Posted by: Tina | July 13, 2007 3:47 PM
Actually, Rick, depending on the Christian denomination being represented by the prayer on any given day, you don't even have to look to non-Christians to find those who should/might be offended by the Sentate seeming to endorse a "false" religion. The head of my own former church, the Roman Catholics, just this week detailed how every other "Christian" denomination - including Orthodox, mainline Protestant and evangelical - is not a real "church," for various reasons. Of course, many of the Protestant denominations, particularly the evangelical and fundamentalist, consider Roman Catholicism to be satanic, and we won't even get started on all of these "Christians'" negative attitude toward gay-affirming denominations, including the Metropolitan Community Church.
I highly doubt the Senate could invite anyone in who didn't represent a "religion" someone else found false and immoral - but that was once considered a strength in this country *sigh*.
Posted by: CPT_Doom | July 13, 2007 4:16 PM
Rep. Pete Stark: I Don't Believe in God
NewsMax.com, March 13, 2007
Secular groups applauded Rep. Pete Stark for publicly acknowledging he does not believe in a supreme being. The declaration, they said, makes the California Democrat the highest-ranking elected official - and first congressman - to publicly claim to be an atheist.
Posted by: Rhampton | July 13, 2007 4:21 PM
Tina -
It's called the law.
I disagree. I think this notion still panders to the notion that atheists are inherently immoral. This is simply not true. Probably the most moral, ethical person I have ever met in my life, is my father. This is not just a biased opinion, nobody that knows my dad would say differently. I don't know anyone more honest than he. Nor do I know many people so willing to give of themselves, without thought for profit, than my dad. He is genuinely caring and compassionate. His integrity has allowed him to be fired from two, very good jobs in the last year (as an on site safety man), because he would not accept unsafe conditions on the job.
My dad is an atheist. His ethics and morality are based entirely on secular humanism.
Posted by: DuWayne | July 13, 2007 4:22 PM
DuWayne,
I agree with you, but I think that Tina was responding to the claim that atheists were not accountable. People seem to conflate the idea of morality with the idea of accountability. I agree that an all-knowing, all-powerful watcher who holds you accountable for your actions is pretty much the ultimate in accountability. It seems to follow, though, that one can have no morality without accountability. From what I've seen, atheists (myself included) reject this position while religious advocates (whether they know it or not) seem to support it.
It never seems to dawn on them that what they're advocating is essentially, "It's OK if I can get away with it," which seems to me to be the very definition of an amoral position.
Posted by: Troublesome Frog | July 13, 2007 5:10 PM
What a pathetic reaction from supposedly liberated people----MY GOD is better than YOUR GOD.... And I thought fundamentalists were only in the opposite part of the globe
Posted by: H Asar | July 13, 2007 6:04 PM
> The impression is that Barton believes that state
> governments should have the power to put people in jail for
> their religious opinions.
*sigh*
"Would you care to post a citation and explain why you think this is the case - ie care to back up your statement at all...?"
Easy. While I can't give page numbers because I don't have immediate access to a copy of Original Intent, Barton cites Commonwealth v. Kneeland, an 1838 Massachusetts state supreme court ruling. The ruling upheld the blasphemy conviction of Abner Kneeland, a pantheist who had publicly ridiculed Christianity. Kneeland did 60 days in jail. Either Barton cited the case for the "Christian America" rhetoric without thinking through its implications or he cited it because he completely agrees with it. Get a copy of Original Intent and see for yourself.
Posted by: Bill Jarrell | July 13, 2007 6:31 PM
Gordon James Klingenschmitt says when he heard that the Hindu man, who is affiliated with the Indian Association of Northern Nevada, was invited to give the opening prayer for July 12, he went to the U.S. Senate in hopes of gaining equal access.
This statement is baffling considering the US Senate has opened with a Christian prayer almost every single day it has been in session dating back to the 18th century.
Ten bucks says Klingenschmitt comes out with a follow-up statement next week claiming the Hindi Senate prayer is yet another sign of how Christians are so horribly persecuted in America, which is like saying humanity is persecuted by hobbits.
Posted by: CHV | July 13, 2007 8:02 PM
vjack: I cannot get trackback links on any of the ScienceBlogs sites to work. I've contacted them repeatedly with no luck.
Same here. The least they could do is remove the "trackback for this post is..." line which appears on the bottom of every single post on every ScienceBlog. You'd think the ScienceBlog bloggers would care about this little piece of web etiquette. What do you think, Ed? Will you be the standard bearer?
Posted by: Trinifar | July 13, 2007 8:31 PM
"What a pathetic reaction from supposedly liberated people----MY GOD is better than YOUR GOD.... And I thought fundamentalists were only in the opposite part of the globe"
Where on earth did you get that idea from? We've been overrun with fundamentalists here for decades.
Posted by: MJ Memphis | July 13, 2007 11:26 PM
America is great because we value the equality of man, right? We believe that all men are equal, regardless of their birth, status in society, gender, race, or creed.
Where on earth did we get such a funny idea? Certainly not from an Islamic point of view; women are inferior by nature, and only good Muslims are worth dying for.
We definitely didn't get it from the Hindus: they're infamous for a worse form of societal status [caste system] than any other religion in history.
When these particular religious systems govern, there is no acceptance of other religions. Our Founders tolerated other religions such as Islam or Hinduism and there is documentary proof of that. They did not, however, endorse those religions simply because those religions did not comprehend the equality of man.
If we're all made by the same Creator [God], we're all imperfect [sin], and we all have the same chance at redemption as the next fellow [Jesus], then what do we have to lord over someone else?
All this to say:
On the one hand, I can't say that the protesters in the Senate were very polite in their interruption of a guest, on the other, they were right on when it comes to the values our country was founded on and that made us a great people.
The Hindu exist in our country because of Christianity; not the other way around.
Posted by: Rachel | July 14, 2007 12:54 AM
According to Voice of America News, Senate Majority Leader
Harry Reid--who is a Mormon--is the person who invited the
Hindu chaplain to give an invocation before the Senate.
Reference:
http://www.voanews.com/english/2007-07-12-voa97.cfm
Posted by: Metta Jon | July 14, 2007 1:28 AM
Rachel-
Utter historical ignorance. Where was that alleged tolerance for other religions in all of Christian history until the Englightenment? It certainly wasn't there when the Church was declaring pogroms on the Jews for centuries at a time. It certainly wasn't there in early Protestantism when Luther was encouraging his followers to burn down synagogues and kill the Jews, or when Calvin was burning religious dissenters at the stake. For crying out loud, the Christian would couldn't even tolerate other Christian sects. Where was that religious tolerance even in the American colonies? Virtually non-existent. Quakers and Baptists were jailed and even put to death in the Massachusetts Bay Colony, Baptists were jailed in Virginia, Catholics throughout the colonies - forget about Muslims and Hindus, for crying out loud. There is not a single word in the Bible endorsing the concept of religious freedom; there are many verses, on the other hand, commanding slaughter for worshiping the wrong gods. The ideas of religious tolerance came from Enlightenment philosophy; it was a reaction against 1700 years of religious tyranny in the Christian world. Look no further than the words of Thomas Jefferson, who wrote:
Jefferson's insistence on freedom of conscience was not derived from Christianity, it was a reaction to centuries of Christian oppression.
Posted by: Ed Brayton | July 14, 2007 1:42 AM
Sigh... wrong, wrong, wrong. Hindus live in this country because of Enlightenment values that were encoded into a secular government--Christianity had nothing to do with it. This incident just goes to show how much Christians "accept" other religions and that--if they had their way--there'd be no other religions here at all.
It's not like such a thing is unprecedented, after all.
Pfft. Wrong again:
And,
I could pick your comment apart some more, but I think I'll let someone else have some fun.
Posted by: Skemono | July 14, 2007 2:02 AM
Hey fellows, This is really surprising to me?? Why hell the you guys question when a guy from the same religion builds space ships for your country(20% of NASA employees are Indians) and writes back up computer programmes for you( Look at microsoft, needless to say how many Indians are working there).Isn't that a question of national pride for you? Hence, the fact of the matter is that US is built my immigrants and It's democratic and pluralistic. Ofcourse, you guys still have to learn about secularism from India. Three major religions in the world living in peace, in one country and under one system and never the religion dominates, that it is democracy to me.
Posted by: Sree | July 14, 2007 4:27 AM
I am not an American not reside in US. But wish to inform thr readers that Hindus also have one God. But unlike the Middle Eastern religions we say that "there is only one God but learned discribe then in many ways." This will lot of freedom to the worshipers to find their own path to God.
Posted by: R.L.N.Rao | July 14, 2007 5:12 AM
I am not an American and do not reside in US. But wish to inform thr readers that Hindus also have one God. But unlike the Middle Eastern religions we say that "there is only one God but learned discribe then in many ways." This will lot of freedom to the worshipers to find their own path to God.
Posted by: R.L.N.Rao | July 14, 2007 5:12 AM
Rachel-
I believe the caste system and slavery are two most disgusting things that you can do to a human being. Both of these treat humans in a horrifying way.
Hindus (BTW all Religions in India) have exploited humans by using caste system while Middle Eastern and European cultures have invented slavery and exploited the humans through that.
Ten Commandments which is the basis of Three Monotheistic religions says
Don't covet your neighbor's wife, ass, or slave -- or any thing that belongs to your neighbor
It means women and slaves are property of men/master.
This is one of the foundations of Judaism, Christianity & Islam.
That's why during American civil war many Southern Christians were saying you cannot take away our slaves because god has said that no body can take away somebody's slaves.
I do not want to defend Hinduism or Caste system, which is a bad social structure.
I believe Indian and Western civilizations have produced these terrible things in the past; we should learn from it and try to abolish these two.
Posted by: n.s.deonia | July 14, 2007 8:59 AM
Dear All ,
I wrote earlier about the bigotry and viciousness of Christianity and Islam alike . Crusades and Jihads have created many collossal haulocausts whereevr these intolerent creeds spread. They were also tools of Imperialism and Empire building.This is normal for the Iron age we live in ( called Kali Yuga in Sanskrit ).
Speaking of the Caste System in India - it is a Material , Social engineering abstraction that provided stability and oppurtunity people to prosper without conflict - it is not a birth based , but occupation based idea - Brahmanas ( Sagely, priestly class ) , Kshatriyas ( Warriors and administrators ) , Vaishyas ( traders and services guys ) , Sudras (working class ).
Such classification is true for every society of every age . So this whole hatred surrounding Caste system is ill-informed and the result of distortions in the system during the dark ages ( the same period Islam and Christianity drenched India in blood )
All the concepts and ideas in Hinduism ( the Eternal Vedic religion) are universal and totally rooted in truth - not conditioned truth. Thats why we Hindus dont proselytise - we dont even bother.
Posted by: Rudra | July 14, 2007 9:36 AM
Hinduism is a Monothiest Religion. Here is the evidence:
The origin of the Creation according to Rig Veda, Book X, verse 129( the oldest book of Hindu religion):
" Then was not non-existent nor existent; there was no realm of air, no sky beyond it.
The ONE, breathless breathed by its own nature; apart from it was nothing whatsoever.
All that existed then was void and formless; by the great power of warmth (Tapasya) was born that UNIT. Thereafter rose LOVE the primal seed and germ of SPIRIT.
Devas are later than this world's creation. HE the first origin of this creation; HE formed it all. WHOSE eye controls this world."
Thus, HE the Brahman is the creator of the Devas and Devis. It is supported by Bhagwat Gita ( Messages of Krishna the reincarnation of Brahman):
"I am the one source of all; the evolution of all comes from me" (Bhagwat Gita, Ch 10, verse 8) and
" I am the source of all beings; I support them all, but I rest not in them" (Bhagwat Gita, Ch 9, verse 5).
" Brahman is the supreme, the eternal"(Ch 8, Verse 3);
"In this universes there is nothing higher than I." (Ch 7, Verse 7)
" It is Brahman, beginingless, supreme; beyond what is and beyond what is not"(Ch 13, verse 12)
" He who knows I am beginningless, unborn, the Lord of all the universes, this mortal is free from delusion and from all evils he is free"(Ch 10, verse 3).
" I am the abode of Brahman, the never-failing fountain of everlasting life" (Ch 14, verse 27)
Devas and Devis are not many Gods or Goddess but spirits created by the Brahman to help us for specific purposes, i.e., very powerful angels.
Posted by: Dipak Basu | July 15, 2007 4:26 AM