The fevered overreactions to the generic Hindu prayer continue to pour in. I particularly liked the reaction from the American Family Association (do Hindus not have families?) before the prayer even took place:
"It is a watershed day in that it brings to mind some of these precedent-setting events like the day that we took prayer and Bible-reading out of school in our country [and] the day that we legalized abortion," Smith offers. "I fear that while God has been so merciful with our country in the past, events such as are about to happen, like this in the U.S. Senate, is angering a just God. I fear that we bring judgment upon our country with such acts."
Isn't it odd how, for these people, God acts as a perpetual bully, like some sort of demented big brother that a schoolchild might invoke to scare his friends in to not picking on him? "You better not do that or my big brother is going to beat you up."
Or better yet, like a mafia don whose reputation for violence provides the talking points for his goons. "Mr. Vincenzo has been very patient wit youse so far, but his patience...it's running out. If we don't receive payment soon, you might just meet with an accident. This is a beautiful country you got here; would be a shame if something happened to it, capiche?" I find it absolutely baffling.
One should also note the distortion of history in his statement. We did not, of course, take either prayer or Bible reading out of schools. We took mandatory, government-required prayer and Bible reading out of schools. So his argument comes down to this: "if you don't force people of other religions to participate in religious rituals that they don't believe in, I'm gonna come and mess up your country. I can get very angry about people worshipping other gods. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry." And of course, he's right. Why anyone would find such a god worthy of worship is beyond me.
Then there's the reaction from our old pal Nathan Bradfield at STACLU, who lends us the benefit of his non-existent reasoning skills in reaction to this non-event. He quotes with approval this statement from Tony Perkins:
No one can legitimately challenge the fact that the God America refers to in the pledge, our national motto, and other places is the monotheistic God of the Jewish and Christian faith. There is no historic connection between America and the polytheistic creed of Hinduism. I seriously doubt that Americans want to change the motto, "In God We Trust," which Congress officially adopted in 1955, to "In gods we Trust." That is essentially what the United States Senate did today.
I think this whole argument about monotheism v polytheism is quite amusing, and highly hypocritical. Ironically, one of the primary criticisms that Muslims make of Christianity is that it is polytheistic, having three divine beings who, it is claimed, are really one. The leading founding fathers (Jefferson, Madison, Washington, Adams, Franklin) all were unitarians who found the notion of the trinity to be absurd. Jefferson, in private letters to friends, savaged the idea. In a letter to John Adams he wrote:
It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticism that three are one and one is three, and yet, that the one is not three, and the three not one.... But this constitutes the craft, the power, and profits of the priests. Sweep away their gossamer fabrics of fictitious religion, and they would catch no more flies.
In a letter to the Rev. Jared Sparks he wrote:
The metaphysical insanities of Athanasius, of Loyola, and of Calvin, are, to my understanding, mere relapses into polytheism, differing from paganism only by being more unintelligible.
And to James Smith he wrote:
The hocus-pocus phantasm of a god like another Cerberus, with one body and three heads, had its birth and growth in the blood of thousands and thousands of martyrs.
So, ironically, a large part of the reason why Jefferson rejected orthodox Christianity was its insistence on polytheism, which he considered "metaphysical insanity." The other irony, of course, is that Hinduism, if it is viewed as polytheistic at all, is so in precisely the same way that Christianity is. Hindus believe in one god with many avatars or representations. How is that any different than trinitarian Christianity?
Indeed, John Adams, who was also a unitarian, recognized this about Hinduism and, also being a universalist, pointed out that Hinduism and Christianity had much in common. In a letter to Jefferson, he wrote:
Where is to be found Theology more orthodox or Phylosophy more profound than in the Introduction to the Shast[r]a [a Hindu Treatise]? "God is one, creator of all, Universal Sphere, without beginning, without End. God Governs all the Creation by a General Providence, resulting from his eternal designs -- Search not the Essence and the nature of the Eternal, who is one; Your research will be vain and presumptuous. It is enough that, day by day, and night by night, You adore his Power, his Wisdom and Goodness, in his Works."
Jon Rowe and I have both been writing for months about the universalism and unitarianism of the leading founding fathers. None of them would have been the least bit shocked by having a Hindu priest say a prayer to "the deity supreme." All five of them were theistic rationalists but also universalists. They all believed that there was but one god and that all religions worshiped that same god in their own way. That's why they went out of their way to address those of different faiths by their own names for god, for instance by referring to God as "the Great Spirit" when corresponding with the Indians. Patrick Henry would not have liked it, but those leading founders would have been just fine with it.
While God did not write our laws, He was certainly a consultant in the process.
Ah, let us return once again to John Adams, who wrote a document explaining to the people of Britain how the government of the US had formed. He wrote:
The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.
There is not a word about God or Christianity in the Constitution. Nor is there a word about either in the Federalist papers, written to explain and defend the Constitution. We know who the founders viewed as "consultants" because they referenced those works in the Federalist papers and their other writings repeatedly in explaining and defending the provisions of the Constitution. John Locke was a "consultant" in that regard. So was Montesquieu. So were a few other Enlightenment philosophers. God was not among them.
Reid may think this opening prayer is nothing more than a check mark on his daily to-do list, but anyone that holds any reverence for this country and the duties expected of our elected officials understands that the prayer is, or should be, a plea to God to guide our steps and give us wisdom as we make decisions that will effect our citizens, future generations, and even the rest of the world.
Funny, I thought that's exactly what the Hindu chaplain did, made a plea to God to guide us. Here is the full text of his prayer:
Let us pray. We meditate on the transcendental glory of the deity supreme, who is inside the heart of the earth, inside the life of the sky and inside the soul of heaven. May he stimulate and illuminate our minds.Lead us from the unreal to real, from darkness to light, and from death to immortality. May we be protected together. May we be nourished together. May we work together with great vigor. May our study be enlightening.
That's about as generic a prayer as any Methodist has ever prayed. Indeed, it would fit perfectly in the writings of George Washington himself, who liked to use broad names for god like "supreme being" and "grand architect." And yes, he did ask god to give us wisdom and guide our steps. Oh, I know Nathan doesn't think he was praying to THE god, but so what? A Zoroastrian thinks Nathan is praying to the wrong god too.
America's unparalleled success and blessings are a witness that these prayers to God have paid off.
Funny, because Nathan's ideological forebears - the religious right at the time of the Constitution - were screaming exactly the opposite. The Constitution, they declared, was a Godless document that would bring down the wrath of God upon us all. They tried repeatedly to amend the Constitution to add "Christian nation" language to it, but they failed. They kept it up for decades, even claiming at the time that the Civil War was proof that God was angry at us for our godless Constitution. Funny how times change, isn't it?
The fact is that it's quite easy to use God's pleasure or anger to explain anything you wish. Storms, poor crops, losses on the battlefield - all easily explained as resulting from God's anger with us. A good hunt, a victory in battle, a healthy child - all just as easily explained as resulting from God's pleasure with us. Of course, rational people know that storms and poor crops are the result of natural weather patterns or other mundane causes, while losses in battle are usually the fault of stupid leaders, not divine disappointment.
The Senate has been opening with prayer to God since its beginning. The invocations have always reflected the same God and should do so in the future. Senate prayers that exclude all faiths but God, does not mean that we aren't diverse or that we are forcing other faiths to convert to Christianity. It simply means this nation believes in God, but as a citizen, you are free to worship as you please.
This is gibberish. There is no "this nation" that is capable of belief; only individuals are capable of belief. Some people in this nation believe in Christianity; some do not. But as Madison reminded us time and again, the government has no belief at all and has no legitimate authority to make any statement at all on such matters, leaving it instead to each individual. Indeed, Madison argued that the very fact that Congress had chaplains was a violation of the first amendment:
Is the appointment of Chaplains to the two Houses of Congress consistent with the Constitution, and with the pure principle of religious freedom?In strictness the answer on both points must be in the negative. The Constitution of the U. S. forbids everything like an establishment of a national religion. The law appointing Chaplains establishes a religious worship for the national representatives, to be performed by Ministers of religion, elected by a majority of them; and these are to be paid out of the national taxes. Does not this involve the principle of a national establishment, applicable to a provision for a religious worship for the Constituent as well as of the representative Body, approved by the majority, and conducted by Ministers of religion paid by the entire nation.
The establishment of the chaplainship to Congs is a palpable violation of equal rights, as well as of Constitutional principles: The tenets of the chaplains elected [by the majority] shut the door of worship agst the members whose creeds & consciences forbid a participation in that of the majority. To say nothing of other sects, this is the case with that of Roman Catholics & Quakers who have always had members in one or both of the Legislative branches. Could a Catholic clergyman ever hope to be appointed a Chaplain? To say that his religious principles are obnoxious or that his sect is small, is to lift the evil at once and exhibit in its naked deformity the doctrine that religious truth is to be tested by numbers. or that the major sects have a right to govern the minor.
If Religion consist in voluntary acts of individuals, singly, or voluntarily associated, and it be proper that public functionaries, as well as their Constituents shd discharge their religious duties, let them like their Constituents, do so at their own expence. How small a contribution from each member of Congs wd suffice for the purpose? How just wd it be in its principle? How noble in its exemplary sacrifice to the genius of the Constitution; and the divine right of conscience? Why should the expence of a religious worship be allowed for the Legislature, be paid by the public, more than that for the Ex. or Judiciary branch of the Govt
Notice that he used the example of Catholics, then a very small sect in the US. Today he might well have said Hindus. And that is precisely the problem. Madison here has predicted precisely what has happened over the last few days, that if someone from a small sect manages to become chaplain, even for a day, there will be a great outcry based purely on the whim of the majority. And he calls this "evil" and a "naked deformity", this doctrine "that religious truth is to be tested by numbers."
The problem, of course, is that if a strict separationist filed a lawsuit claiming that having government-paid chaplains in Congress opening every day with prayer is a government endorsement of Christianity, people like Tony Perkins would scoff at that. This isn't endorsement, they would say, it's just an acknowledgment of the role Christianity has played in our history. It's just "ceremonial deism."
Yet let a non-Christian say a single prayer for one day, interrupting a steady stream of some 60,000 Christian prayers spoken daily in that same chamber, and Perkins declares that this is an obvious act of government endorsement that "essentially" changes the motto of the country to "in gods we trust." Funny how 60,000 Christian prayers can't possibly be seen as endorsement, but one Hindu prayer manages to reverse all that history. Consistency? Who needs consistency when God is on their side?
Where did our founders make this desire for a separation of church and state? One man used the phrase in a certain context, which liberals have obliterated. What about the fact that the Founders talked, wrote, and spoke about God and His influence on their lives, and they prayed to Him for guidance?
How many times does this idiotic argument have to be answered before it gets through to halfwits like Bradfield? Both Jefferson and Madison used that phrase many times to describe the first amendment religion clauses. The fact that many founders spoke openly about their faith in God has precisely nothing to do with it. One can be deeply religious AND believe strongly in the separation of church and state. Indeed, some of the most outspoken advocates of strict separation were Baptist ministers like Isaac Backus and John Leland. Being deeply religious does not mean that one has to believe that the government should endorse or support one's religion. As Jefferson wrote, in a second letter to the Virginia Baptists, in 1808:
Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.
Or as so eloquently stated in his Notes on Virginia, "It is error alone that needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself."
But somehow one phrase plucked out of a letter written by an ambassedor not even in the country translates to a "desire by all Founders to have a separation of church and state." If that was the case, Mr. Lynn, it would be in the Constitution.
Another idiotic argument. Nathan, can you find the phrase "separation of powers" in the Constitution? How about "checks and balances"? No. Gosh, then those concepts must not be in the Constitution! Our history books must be lying to us! Or, in the alternative, someone with an IQ above that of a pot roast might notice that the founders used many different phrases to describe the provisions of the Constitution and we still use those phrases today.

Ed Brayton is a journalist, commentator and speaker. He is the co-founder and president of 



Comments
Isn't it odd how, for these people, God acts as a perpetual bully, like some sort of demented big brother that a schoolchild might invoke to scare his friends in to not picking on him?
Odd? Not hardly. Man created God in his own image. It is no surprise that the AFA's God is a bully.
Posted by: carlsonjok | July 14, 2007 9:45 AM
Great post, Ed. What a pleasure it is to see these bullies finally have to show their cards: "Well, we weren't really advocating for just any old prayer; we meant our kind of prayers -- prayers to the Christian God." No more disingenuousness is going to be possible from these guys on the public prayer agenda. Halleleujah!
Posted by: Occam's Trowel | July 14, 2007 9:57 AM
Near the end you say "another idiotic government"--did you mean "statement"?
Posted by: Jim Lippard | July 14, 2007 10:02 AM
Re. God as bully: Loathe as I am to resort to cod-psychoanalytic explanations of behavior, I will admit that it can be enlightening -- or at least entertaining -- to get your favorite right-wing authoritarian to talk about his relationship with his father. Cue Philip Larkin.
A question about Hinduism: Is it common in Hinduism as typically practiced to have priests take on a pastoral role and deliver sermons and imprecatory prayers? I thought Hinduism was mostly orthopraxy, taking the form primarily of devotions and ablutions.
Posted by: HP | July 14, 2007 11:12 AM
BTW - Trinitarianism is an old Indo-European idea. The idea of the Trinity dominates Hindu conceptions of God (e.g., Creator-Sustainer-Destroyer: Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva). Christianity "borrowed" that (essentially Hindu) idea.
Posted by: IanR | July 14, 2007 11:36 AM
Well, if the AFA does not want the Senate hearing prayers to a "supreme deity," maybe the Senate should not hear prayers at all.
Yes, let's take away the toy.
Posted by: Royale | July 14, 2007 11:49 AM
I'm not sure that you can really say that a triune god is an "essentially Hindu" idea, IanR. Triple gods show up all over the place: the Morrigan, the Moirae, the Norns... granted, those are all female deities, but still.
Posted by: Skemono | July 14, 2007 1:54 PM
I think the trinity of christianity began as female: the maiden, the mother, and the crone, representing youth, motherhood, and wisdom, and representing the cycle of birth and death, with each a stage in life.
Christians replaced the first two with the son and the father, but the son got saddled with both birth and death, and the father escaped both. What of the third party of the trinity? This became a placekeeper, a holy spirit with no real reason for being, having no filial or paternal relation to the other two, sort of an open slot with perpetual mission creep.
An all-male pantheon is really hard to figure as an invention, so I'm pretty confident that christians coopted a matriarchal religion and changed genders. (This is evident in the mention of Abraham's bosom. Obviously, they change the name to Abraham, and made her not be a woman anymore.)
Posted by: Grackle | July 14, 2007 3:04 PM
Re: God as don ... reminds me of Oral Roberts and his fundraising scheme 20-something years ago. We lived in Dallas/Fort Worth at the time, Dad wrote a column in the Arlington paper about how he really doubted that God was some Louie the Loan Shark type of guy, threatening Oral's life if he didn't raise whatever it was that he was trying to raise.
We got lots of death threats out of that one. :) You'd be surprised how many times Christians threatened to kill me and my brother for something my dad said. Or maybe you wouldn't be surprised at all.
On another note, I recently read something about how the FF's meant "freedom of religion" more within the scope of different sects of Christianity, but not outside. I had never seen that particular spin and meant to ask you about it. Your take?
Posted by: Andrea | July 14, 2007 8:41 PM
I get so damned sick and tired of being lumped in with the religious right (members of which are just as bad and idiotic as the loony left). I am proud to be a Christian and as such I try to maintain an open mind on a wide range of subjects relating to religion and belief systems. My bible isn't for everyone but that other belief systems can offer alternative paths to the same goal.
I do have a serious problem with radical militants who resort to violence to promulgate their beliefs. This includes the blood baths of the crusades of the middle ages up to todays violently militant Islamic radicals. Violence in the name of 'God' is senseless and a great waste of time, energy and talent, as well as money (money that could be put to much more humanitarian efforts).
God of the Old Testament was the God of the ancient Hebrews and his wrath was directed against the enemies of his chosen people. His wrath was also directed against his own 'chosen people' when they strayed from the paths of His rightgiousness as laid down for his 'chosen one's'.
My beliefs are based upon the teachings of the New Testiment which are built upon the history of the Jews as outlined in the Old, and anyone who takes the old testiment as the literal word of God has bigger problems than I do. Evidence continues to come to light that offers proof of many of the events of the Old Testiment as actually having happened. In the mean time I will remaing somewhat of a sceptic when it comes to some of those events.
As for the age old arguement of Science Vs Creationism (much like which came first, "the chicken or the egg?"). Why can't they both be reasonalably correct? Science as to how and the the teachings of the Bible as to why.
Both sides in this arguement sound like a bunch of third graders out on the playground at recess. Nanny nanny boo boo I saw your __________. Grow up people, there are greater problems out there that could use our collective energies. Stop splitting historical hairs and get a life.
I do not mock your beliefs either publically nor privately so why do you have to spend to much time and energy attacking mine?
A Ragamuffin
Posted by: Duane TeWinkel | July 14, 2007 11:54 PM
Because the Bible doesn't stop at "why", it goes on to say "how" and "what" and is simply, demonstrably, wrong.
Posted by: Skemono | July 15, 2007 12:11 AM
Duane,
What greater problems do you think we should be working on instead?
Posted by: Andrea | July 15, 2007 12:42 AM
Any suggestions of a place to read up (more specifically, some books) on the religious beliefs (and the lack thereof) of the founding fathers?
Posted by: mollishka | July 15, 2007 2:42 PM
Wait, isn't God a diety, not a "faith"? Isn't faith something has in a god, not a god itself?
Posted by: mollishka | July 15, 2007 2:48 PM
Mollishka:
Internet Infidels has some pretty good resources and some very knowledgeable posters on the subject.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/church-state/christian-nation.html might be a good starting point, as well as the Church/State subforum in the discussion groups there.
Posted by: Coragyps | July 15, 2007 2:52 PM
Ed,
This is an extremely well written piece. Yes, I know you are a journalist, but even so, this article is manages to draw one in while being both persuasive and scholarly. Can I have permission to quote some of this in Op-Ed letters?
Posted by: Chiefley | July 15, 2007 3:40 PM
Chiefley-
Thanks. And of course.
Posted by: Ed Brayton | July 15, 2007 3:47 PM
Duane Twuinkel writes...
"I do not mock your beliefs either publically nor privately so why do you have to spend to much time and energy attacking mine?"
Duane,
I understand your frustration. However, being a very devout Christian in a mainstream denomination I have come to accept the fact that when it comes to fundamentalism and the excesses and downright destructive activity of the Christian Right, we are all guilty by association. The only way we can expunge ourselves of that guilt is to be as vocal and ever present as the Christian Right in defending reason, science, and the rights of the individual.
The OP article is extremely relevent and timely. First of all, there are few things more important to our system of Government than civil liberties in respect to the power of the Executive Branch. Do I need to remind you that this is central to our system of government. Religious freedom is one of those liberties and it has been one that is absolutely essential.
Also, while the US is still a world power and a leader in technology, it is all the more important that we not allow anyone to roll back the Enlightenment both in science and in politics.
So everytime someone on the Christian Right does something stupid, nasty, or damaging to individuals or civil liberties in general, I consider it my transgression as well, until I spend some time writing letters, or bearing witness so as to counteract that influence. You should do the same.
I insist that religiously motivated opinions or actions have no special protection from the government nor should citizens respect them more than any other opinions. Therefore if a religious person makes a public statement that is ridiculous, they are fair game as an object of ridicule. If more rational Christians want to spend the time correcting the record (which they almost never do), then that is good. Otherwise, we are all guilty by association.
Posted by: Chiefley | July 15, 2007 3:56 PM
Molishka writes...
"Any suggestions of a place to read up (more specifically, some books) on the religious beliefs (and the lack thereof) of the founding fathers?"
Molishka,
Search Amazon.com for these books:
- The Founding Fathers and the Place of Religion in America
- American Gospel: God, the Founding Fathers, and the Making of a Nation.
- Jefferson and Madison on the Separation of Church and State.
- The Myth of Christian America: What You Need to Know about the Separation of Church and State.
- Thomas Jefferson and the Wall of Separation Between Church and State.
Posted by: Chiefley | July 15, 2007 4:11 PM
"Any suggestions of a place to read up (more specifically, some books) on the religious beliefs (and the lack thereof) of the founding fathers?"
The incomparable Jonathan Rowe is THE place to go.
http://jonrowe.blogspot.com/
Posted by: John | July 15, 2007 9:16 PM
Actually, you can go to Positive Liberty and get the incomparable Jon Rowe and the equally incomparable Jason Kuznicki and Tim Sandefur. Oh and me too.
Posted by: Ed Brayton | July 15, 2007 10:10 PM
I want to thank to those protesters.
They are giving greater visibility to Hinduism. Except for their action, nobody would have known about this Hindu prayer in the senate. Now it is all over the news and all over the blogs.
Most people in the west are still ignorant of Hinduism. Media never ever talk about Hinduism.
So incidents like this will open up serious discussions about Hinduism all over the media and in academic circles.........
To the Protesters, I want to offer my gratitude for making a very big issue about this prayer......
Knowingly or unknowingly they are making more people interested in Hinduism
Posted by: AM I A HINDU? Best Seller | July 16, 2007 7:49 AM
skemono asserts:
Only to a fundamentalist and/or Biblical literalist. Such as yourself.
Posted by: Poly | July 16, 2007 4:05 PM
Chiefley writes:
I though we had gotten past these collective guilt trips. I guess not.
I didn't appoint these bigots to speak for me and I surely am not going to accept any sort of responsibility for their continuing invincible ignorance. Notwithstanding the fact that they call themselves Christians, the only connection they have to Christianity is the name.
Taking this prejudiced path is a personal choice that these people made for themselves. They didn't ask me about that choice beforehand, and, as far as I can tell, they're not asking me about it now. If I have a reponsibility, it is to those to whom they direct their intolerance.
Posted by: Poly | July 16, 2007 4:36 PM
Poly,
We're unlikely to ever get past those guilt trips. Here's the problem. You're holding up the Bible and effectively saying, "There's a lot of good principles in here with which to guide your life. Of course, that's mixed in with a lot of garbage suitable only for the ancient goat-herders who wrote it."
But those principles that you choose to take from the Bible can just as easily be found from more rational sources. If you don't believe in the darned thing, why are you still using it? And if you do, why are you surprised that we lump you in with the ones who claim that it is all the literal Word of God?
Also, you said:
If I have a reponsibility, it is to those to whom they direct their intolerance.
It sounded to me like that's exactly who Chiefly was trying to talk to, to point out the difference between him and those protesters. You may have more in common with him than you think.
Posted by: BobApril | July 16, 2007 4:50 PM
I've read BobApril's reply over more than once, and as far as I can tell, he has simply made up some context that has almost nothing to do with what I wrote and less than nothing to do with what I believe. Not that he could possibly know anything about the latter - but it didn't stop him from commenting about it as if he did.
No doubt he is promoting some sort of program, and I say if someone wants to write nonsense to promote an agenda, that is their prerogative.
But for the benefit of DuWayne and others who have complained in the past that I ignore messages directed to me, let this serve as a object lesson as to why.
Posted by: Poly | July 16, 2007 6:08 PM
No, not literalist. Just literate. You can contort yourself all you like to try to say that the Bible doesn't claim that rabbits chew their cud, but that still doesn't expunge the passage. On matters of science the Bible is simply wrong. Get over it.
Posted by: Skemono | July 16, 2007 6:51 PM
Poly,
I DO beg your pardon - I mistakenly assumed that you had read some of the other posts and comments on Ed's blog where the subject had come up. Like the last time, when you were one of the commenters. Now that I reread it, it does appear you dropped out early. Let me elaborate.
You imply that you are a Christian. Supporting evidence -
I didn't appoint these bigots to speak for me and I surely am not going to accept any sort of responsibility for their continuing invincible ignorance. Notwithstanding the fact that they call themselves Christians, the only connection they have to Christianity is the name.
If that was not meant to imply that you are a true Christian while "these bigots" are not, then perhaps you shouldn't have been taking insult from Chiefly's post regarding "rational Christians".
In order to be a Christian, at a minimum, you must believe in Christ. In order to believe in Christ, you have to accept the one and only source of knowledge of Him - the Bible. You do not have to accept it in toto, but you do have to accept it in part - otherwise you are stretching the term "Christian" beyond any reasonable person's ability to comprehend. Is that too much of a stretch for me to assume?
So, either you accept the Bible literally, which, I freely grant, does not describe you. Alternatively, you accept it in part. I admit that I made an assumption that you select from it "the good principles in here with which to guide your life." I suppose you could select some of the more intolerant parts. Was I wrong in my assumption?
Okay, now to get back to my earlier post. I'll be more general, since apparently you object to my original wording. You accept some part of the Bible as true. As a Christian, you must accept at least some of it as principles to guide your life. WHATEVER principles you choose to take from it, they're available elsewhere, without the huge amounts of baggage associated with the whole book. If you're going to continue to hold up the Bible as a source for your beliefs, then you're going to get lumped in with all the bigots that are holding up the same book. You objected to the "collective guilt trips". That's where they come from. I'm sorry if you feel it is unfair - but I think having to continue to wade through hundreds of pages of poorly-written "history", parables, myths, and intolerance to try to guess which bits happen to apply to everyone who calls themselves Christian is unfair. That's life.
Posted by: BobApril | July 16, 2007 8:13 PM
Duane TeWinkel writes...
"I do not mock your beliefs either public ally nor privately so why do you have to spend too much time and energy attacking mine?"
Duane,
I understand your frustration. However, being a very devout Christian in a mainstream denomination I have come to accept the fact that when it comes to fundamentalism and the excesses and downright destructive activity of the Christian Right, we are all guilty by association. The only way we can expunge ourselves of that guilt is to be as vocal and ever present as the Christian Right in defending reason, science, and the rights of the individual.
The OP article is extremely relevant and timely. First of all, there are few things more important to our system of Government than civil liberties in respect to the power of the Executive Branch. Do I need to remind you that this is central to our system of government? Religious freedom is one of those liberties and it has been one that is absolutely essential.
Also, while the US is still a world power and a leader in technology, it is all the more important that we not allow anyone to roll back the Enlightenment both in science and in politics.
So every time someone on the Christian Right does something stupid, nasty, or damaging to individuals or civil liberties in general, I consider it my transgression as well, until I spend some time writing letters, or bearing witness so as to counteract that influence. You should do the same.
I insist that religiously motivated opinions or actions have no special protection from the government nor should citizens respect them more than any other opinions. Therefore if a religious person makes a public statement that is ridiculous, they are fair game as an object of ridicule. If more rational Christians want to spend the time correcting the record (which they almost never do), then that is good. Otherwise, we are all guilty by association.
Posted by: Chiefley | July 15, 2007 03:56 PM
To Chiefley re your July 15 response to my posting.
Maybe you can understand my frustration or maybe not. That remains to be seen. I hope that we can come to see eye to eye on many things, not every thing. I will treat your postings with respect as you did mine.
I am a 63 year old guy who has seen and tasted life up close and personally. I was baptized Catholic by my mother while dad was touring Europe courtesy of the US Army.
After Dad came home we started to attend a Methodist church with a one year interruption for me. Mom insisted that I attend a Catholic school so I did. Took 1st Communion, the whole 9 yards. After that one school year I went back to The Methodist Church. I was confirmed in that church in 1957. Dad's job took us to a small town with no Methodist Church so we went Presbyterian. Once again I took confirmation classes and was confirmed as a Presbyterian (which I am today).
With 20 years in the Air Force behind me I spent time in Viet Nam (lovely Country, when you are not getting shot at), Thailand and The Philippines. I have seen and smelled and tasted life to its fullest, more so than some of the idiots out there who chose to see only their side of things. This includes the religious far right and the atheists out there.
I am not a religious fundamentalist, I am open to reason, science and my religion. Both the extreme left and right wing people pick and chose which parts of the Bible that they want to throw against the other. My God is not a vengeful God raining down fire and brimstone on us today. He dealt severely with his chosen people (the Hebrews of ancient times) for very exacting reasons. He does not Cause a killer hurricane like Katrina. Nor the fires that have ravaged this country. We did this on our own by messing with nature on our own.
I agree with the Oped. No problem. This nation was founded on the basically fundamental belief in FREEDOM OF CHOICE.
Try reading a book titled 365 DAYS OF WALKING THE RED ROAD. The Native American Path to Leading A Spiritual Life Every Day.
Cheers all
Ragamuffin
Posted by: Duane Tewinkel | August 16, 2007 5:00 PM