Keyes and Obama on Gay Marriage : Dispatches from the Culture Wars

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Ed Brayton is a journalist, commentator and speaker. He is the co-founder and president of Michigan Citizens for Science and co-founder of The Panda's Thumb. He has written for such publications as The Bard, Skeptic and Reports of the National Center for Science Education, spoken in front of many organizations and conferences, and appeared on nationally syndicated radio shows and on C-SPAN. Ed is also a Fellow with the Center for Independent Media and the host of Declaring Independence, a one hour weekly political talk show on WPRR in Grand Rapids, Michigan.(static)

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Keyes and Obama on Gay Marriage

Posted on: August 29, 2007 9:09 AM, by Ed Brayton

This is a classic clip that I found at Pam's House Blend. It's from a Senate debate between Alan Keyes and Barack Obama in 2004 and they're asked about gay marriage. Obama's answer is bad. It's a bunch of babble about marriage being sworn before God that I regard as utter nonsense. But Keyes' answer is pure Keyes - long-winded, pedantic and absolutely pointless. And Obama blisters Keyes for that and deftly pokes a hole in his balloon of stupidity. Clip below the fold. Watch to the end to see what I'm talking about. Keyes actually argues that allowing gays to adopt or use artificial insemination leads to incest because the child then has no idea who his siblings might be. Seriously.

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But wouldn't that argument apply equally to adoption or AI by heterosexuals?

You know, between Dubya and Keyes, I have really lost a lot of respect for the value of an "ivy league" education.

Posted by: MJ Memphis | August 29, 2007 9:58 AM

You know, between Dubya and Keyes, I have really lost a lot of respect for the value of an "ivy league" education.

Obama went to Harvard, IIRC.

Posted by: Gerard Harbison | August 29, 2007 10:14 AM

Yeah, Obama's stuttering was pretty shameful. But he did take the course of action that would ensure him the most votes, which is his job as a politician. As long as he promises not to veto any bill that gives full equal rights to gays (which he has), he still has my vote. I think gay couples can deal with not calling their union "marriage" for a while longer.

Posted by: Brandon | August 29, 2007 10:22 AM

I think gay couples can deal with not calling their union "marriage" for a while longer.

do you think we could get around to actually recognizing those unions then? Jeez, talk about condescension.

Posted by: MAJeff | August 29, 2007 12:09 PM

Sorry, I didn't mean to be offensive. Believe me, if I was in charge I'd legalize gay marriage immediately. My point is that I'd rather have a presidential candidate who supported civil unions (with full rights) for gays and actually got elected, then one who supported gay marriage and didn't get elected. It's a crappy compromise, I know, but unfortunately it's one we have to make for the time being.

Posted by: Brandon | August 29, 2007 12:39 PM

I don't think I had ever heard Keyes speak before. My god is it painful. The combination of uttering something stupid and then the condescending lecture on logic and semantics when you don't "get it" is really something special. And he will just not shut up. He talks for like 5 minutes straight "Excuse me! Excuse me! I'm not finished yet." When he starts talking, it's like a bus without brakes. Pedestrians in the crosswalk, watch out!

I love Obama's comeback though: "It's not that what you're saying is complicated, it's just wrong."

How many people voted for this guy?

Posted by: MyPetSlug | August 29, 2007 12:44 PM

Wow, Keyes is as illogical today as he was when I first became familiar with him. Listen to how at the end of the discussion, how he's trying to claim that the "ad absurdum" method of undermining his logic doesn't undermine his logic. I really hope he stays in the race and stays visible. You can't get better than an uncontrollable camera crew laughing at him.

Posted by: Inoculated Mind | August 29, 2007 12:48 PM

Actually Obama took his BA from Columbia and his law degree at Harvard. That said, Obama was totally confused. (Keyes is just nuts!) Obama argues as if he was trying to count the number of angels on the head a pin. His distinction between civil rights and legal rights was too fine by half. It made about as much sense as the Pope trying to parse the meaning of "limbo."

Posted by: Keanus | August 29, 2007 12:51 PM

On a tangent, John Boswell wrote a book called The Kindness of Strangers: The Abandonment of Children in Western Europe from Late Antiquity to the Renaissance that talks about the rate of child abandonment in the ancient world. One of the results was a number of stories where the moral was "be careful who you sleep with, they could be your sibling/child/parent." So Keyes' crazy is is part of a long literary and historical tradition of crazy.

But still crazy.

Posted by: Minnow | August 29, 2007 12:55 PM

One of the results was a number of stories where the moral was "be careful who you sleep with, they could be your sibling/child/parent." So Keyes' crazy is is part of a long literary and historical tradition of crazy.

Going all the way back to Oedipus.

Posted by: Skemono | August 29, 2007 10:11 PM

It was a different time then. I don't think lib-aligned politicians had realized yet that it was ok, even beneficial, to talk positively about homosexuals. As big and visible a part of our society as they have been, for as long as they have been, until very recently national politicians were very leery of seeming too pro-gay(and seeing as we're on the subject, how exactly did thinking citizens should be allowed their rights as citizens get to be politically divisive anyway?). It really wasn't until the Massachusetts' ruling that most politicians really started feeling comfortable discussing the issue in a way other than justifying a second-class status for queer-identifying folks under the law.

Remember also that this was during what amounts to the early stages of Obama's nationally visible political career, and he was likely trying to be very careful about touchy issues, out of a fear of ending it before he really got off the ground.

All that isn't to say that it wouldn't have been refreshing to have a politician be engaging and rights-positive on the issue. In fact, given the level of optimism his speech instilled at the Kerry Convention, I think it would actually have paid off for him big to do so; yet more evidence that Here's a Man Who Does Things a New Way. Its that sentiment that'll get him elected, if anything does, and he should have realized that from the start. In the end I guess my argument is that bravery is not the core trait of the politically ambitious.

Posted by: Julian | August 29, 2007 11:52 PM

If you want to see Obama's views on marriage equality and gay rights and such the LOGO debate would probably be a better spot than this. Although I am a bit surprised at his response given how clearly he was going to stomp Keyes into the ground during that race.

Posted by: moniker | August 30, 2007 12:30 AM

Westermarck effect, anyone?

Posted by: Valhar2000 | August 30, 2007 6:02 AM

Just to show what a sweetheart Mr. Keyes is, recall that when it came out that his daughter was a lesbian, he kicked her out of the house and disowned her. Contrast that with the behavior of former Representative Gephardt and Vice President Cheney toward their lesbian daughters.

Posted by: SLC | August 30, 2007 9:07 AM

Obama's stuttering was pretty shameful.

*shrug*. He often seems to stutter when he is collecting his thoughts; nothing wrong with that. And it's better than coming out and saying a poorly worded throw-back-in-the-face statement instead.

I especially like the laughter in the audience when Keyes makes his "key point."

Posted by: mollishka | September 1, 2007 11:03 AM

OK. Late to the party, but really, no one gets to have the high ground on this issue until someone calls for throwing "marriage" back to the churches and making EVERY governmentally sanctioned union a civil union. Every thinking person knows that the government has no business in marriages and god has no place in civil unions. Separate spheres. Anything else is frickin' ridiculous.

Posted by: Ryan Bedell | September 16, 2007 11:39 PM

Ryan, how about separating civil marriage from religious marriage instead. Stop allowing clergy to officiate a civil ceremonies. But why on earth should we give something to the churches that also has meaning for non-religious people?

Posted by: MAJeff | September 17, 2007 7:19 AM

or ryan and MAJeff, how about we stop asking the gov't for permission slips to get married to begin with? what business is it of theirs at all?

Posted by: khefera | September 17, 2007 4:15 PM