Ed Brayton is a freelance writer and speaker. He is the co-founder and president of 
Yet another pointless freakout by parents over gender and sexual orientation, reported in the Worldnutdaily:
A Pennsylvania elementary school has angered parents by giving them one-day's notice of planned couseling sessions with 100 third-grade students to explain that one of their male classmates would soon begin wearing girls' clothing and taking a female name and to ask that they accept him as a girl and not make unkind remarks.The exercise in "social transition" was initiated by the boy's parents who approached the administration at Chatham Park Elementary School in Haverford Township asking that the school help in having their child's female identity find acceptance among his peers. After consulting experts on transgender children, the Haverford School District sent letters to parents advising them the school guidance counselor would meet with their children, reported the Philadelphia Inquirer.
What exactly is the alternative here? Here are the only ones I can figure:
1. Kick the kid out of school
2. Let the other students treat this kid as a pariah
3. Remind the students that just because someone is different from them, they should still treat them as they would anyone else.
#3 seems like not only the obvious choice but the only possible choice the school could reasonably make. The way the anti-gay crowd handles the subject of transgendered and transsexual people is pure ostrich-syndrome: stick your head in the sand and pretend they don't exist. But they do. They always have and they always will.
And there are more of them than almost anyone would like to think, babies born with dual genitalia, or ambiguous genitalia, and an immediate decision is made to physically make them one way or the other. But that doesn't magically transform them into whatever gender the doctor or parents choose. The anti-gay crowd likes to just dismiss them as "confused" or, worse yet, possessed. But then they never did have much use for reality and have always preferred to substitute their simple, even cartoonish, version of the world in its placce.
Comments
I'm surprised this expression is coming out in this child as early as third grade. Although it is a completely private matter, I would be interested to learn if this child was born with ambiguous or dual genitalia.
Posted by: FishyFred | May 12, 2008 9:45 AM
Given what I know about third graders (I used to be one, many years ago), I have a bad feeling about this situation.
I suppose it's better than waiting until sixth grade, though. That would be a nightmare for the poor kid.
Posted by: ShavenYak | May 12, 2008 9:59 AM
I think this is lovely and progressive and all, but do they actually think it's going to work? I agree that the school doesn't really have any other options, but this is elementary school here. This poor kid is screwed. I think the best thing the parents could do is transfer her to another school, introduce her as a girl and let the child out herself (I would also be interested in knowing the reasons for it, I don't know if "out" is an appropriate term) if/when she chooses.
Of course, I don't know any more about this situation than what I read here so I'm sure I'm missing out on some facts. But this is the kind of thing that could haunt this child for the rest of her school career and it's hard enough as it is. I would also love to be wrong, see this work wonderfully and have the child be loved and accepted. But I wouldn't put any money on it.
Posted by: jba | May 12, 2008 10:13 AM
A certain amount of, shall we say "flexibility", in gender identity is not all that uncommon at that age. Rarely does it have anything to do with ambiguous genitalia or XXY chromosomal anomalies. What is unusual is allowing the child to explore it to this degree, a decision I fully support.
NPR did a story on childhood gender identity disorder (GID) last week, which I think gives a good foundation on the subject for anyone's who's interested. It was covered on Pam's House Blend, a wonderful blog, focused mainly on LGBT issues.
As someone who went through childhood GID, I'm happy to offer a first person perspective and answer any questions folks may have.
Posted by: Abby Normal | May 12, 2008 10:31 AM
Even though I agree that the response is wrong, I also agree with what a few others have said: Who expects kids to be nice and tolerant? They can't even do that with kids who aren't all that unlike themselves; a transgender child has a snowball's chance in hell of making it in a class where the students are fully aware of that fact. It's a sad truth, and the child will be the one who suffers most.
It is good, though, to see a district actively attempting to make an environment where this child can hopefully get an education without the extreme distraction that something like this is likely to present. I think the right teacher can go a long way in a situation like this, but it's difficult to protect a child from circumstances like these. I sincerely hope it works out for her.
Posted by: The Christian Cynic | May 12, 2008 10:39 AM
giving them one-day's notice
I think you kind of missed the point here. I can understand parents being peeved about the lack of notice. Any way you look at it, this is a pretty heavy concept for children to grasp, and I don't think it's unreasonable for parents to expect more than a day to try to prepare their kids.
Posted by: Pustulio | May 12, 2008 10:46 AM
Well, whether the kids will be accepting or not, I give kudos to the school for being willing and able to step up and say "this is not something to be looked down on, and any bullying/bad behaviour stemming from this will be dealt with appropriately". That's much better than the turn-a-blind-eye that I remember being the accepted response when I was in grade school.
Posted by: kodiak | May 12, 2008 10:52 AM
Just something to consider in understanding the thoughts of WND and those like them - as far as they are concerned, transgenders do not exist. They are an impossibility in the definitions used by the social conservative faction - that group defines gender exclusively by birth physical gender, so to them there is no such thing as transgender - only people who are rejecting their 'real' gender to live a lie. This is a part of why they are so opposed to recognising any form of transgender rights or protections from discrimination. As far as those at WND are concerned, a male who dresses in woman's clothing isn't transgender - he is sick and in need of treatment until he is able to be a real man like everyone else with a penis. He certinly shouldn't be encouraged in his delusion that he is a woman.
There was a similar split in thought processes over the pregnant man recently: The left-of-center sites I read mostly said he was a pregnant man, and discussed the implications, while the right-of-center would not refer to him as a man at all - only insisted that he was really a woman. They don't recognise the concept of a sex change procedure, or that there could be any gender aside from that of the sex organs at birth, or the idea of a legal gender being seperate from physiological gender - so to them, someone born a woman will always be a woman, no matter what.
I am not saying they are in any way correct. I just think it important to understand how their thoughts proceed.
Posted by: Suricou Raven | May 12, 2008 11:28 AM
I don't think it's a particularly heavy concept. My two youngest are first and second graders, and they are fortunate enough to have met my transgendered friend. If you are open with your kids from the start, and seek out opportunities to expose them to all kinds of people, cultures, orientations, etc., then they can take it all in stride.
The fact that we make such a big deal about sex and gender issues makes it seem like a "heavy concept," especially when you've only got one day to catch up.
I agree with Kodiak - kudos to the school, and also the parents. Transfering the child might have been an option for them, but then how would the culture ever change?
That's one reason I support Obama. We eventually need to get past the whole "electing a black president" - as if it is a big deal. It's not a big deal. But since McCain is such a weak candidate, and Bush is so despised, I think there's enough support to get past the racist vote. And until we get past the racist vote, that racism will never change.
These parents are great.
Posted by: idahogie | May 12, 2008 11:29 AM
I know of one particular case where a high school teacher underwent a gender change. At first the School Board wanted to have the teacher switch to another school. However the teacher fought to stay at their original school It turned out to be a wise choice. The teacher was well liked at the school and the community seemed relatively relaxed about the whole affair. This may not have been the case at a different high school.
The case that Ed sites here is a great example of what tolerance is all about. Unfortunately many people only have a tolerant attitude about that with which they already agree.
Posted by: Cheddar | May 12, 2008 11:32 AM
"Transfering the child might have been an option for them, but then how would the culture ever change?"
This is a very good point, but one of the major issues is the age of the child. This isn't an adult or even a high schooler who can fully understand the situation and use it to help change attitudes, this is 3rd grader. Of course, I don't know how the child feels about it either, nor do I know anything about the local feelings about these kinds of things. If she wants to stay at that school and has had the possible reactions explained (and hopefully understands them), then that changes things.
My concern is this child says "this is who I am" and all of a sudden people who were her friends hate her for being who she is. It could be very damaging, especially since it's so public. I understand that you can't, and even shouldn't, protect children from all harm, but I think this is a very big deal for her and will have long term influences on her life. It seems that everyone involved has the best intentions, but as we all know that doesn't stop something from being a disaster. Like I said in my last post, I would love to be wrong and have this all work out for the best, but I'm not comfortable with wagering a childs emotional well being on it.
Posted by: jba | May 12, 2008 11:55 AM
Suricou Raven said:
"I just think it important to understand how their thoughts proceed."
I agree with the gist of your comment, but I wouldn't use the word "thought" in that context.
Lets' consider an alternative story.
A father sits his son down and says,"Jimmy, we got a letter from your school today, and there's something I have to tell you about.
"You're going to have a new classmate tomorrow, one who is a little different than the rest of us. You see, he has an imaginary friend, and he believes this imaginary friend made him and all the rest of the world. He doesn't think that dinosaurs died millions of years ago, because he thinks his imaginary friend made the world only a few thousand years ago.
"Sometimes he might act a little strange, and you shouldn't feel frightened. He may hold his hands together and mumble before he eats. If he is nervous he may seem to be talking to himself. Don't be alarmed, he is just talking to his imaginary friend. He feels better when he can do this, so we mustn't make fun, OK?
"And sometimes, he may put his hands up in the air and rock back and forth. His eyes might roll up into his head and he might start making noises that sound like he's having a seizure. Don't worry, he'll be OK. He thinks that is a special language that only his imaginary friend understands.
"The important thing is to realize that whatever strange things he may do, he is a little boy just like anyone else, and you mustn't laugh at him."
Posted by: BaldApe | May 12, 2008 11:58 AM
Abby Normal,
I do have a question or two, please.
From reading the linked article, I got the feeling that being a girl and being a boy were defined with stereotypes. Why would a physical-male who thinks he's a girl necessarily like stereotypical girlish things? Lots of girls who consider themselves girls prefer trucks and short hair and jeans and the color blue. So I don't get why a boy who thinks he's a girl would so persistently choose all the stereotypically girl things unless an underlying problem is the stereotyping itself. Surely there's no physical reason why a young person - with male genitals - who thinks he's a girl would have an obsession with pink. That hasn't even been considered a girl's color at all recent periods in the West.
Is it a reasonable option to treat a physically male child who like dolls and long hair and pink and dresses as just a boy who likes dolls and long hair and pink and dresses? Surely for a young child, the meanings of words are still rather ambiguous. Would it be reasonable to tell such a little boy who called himself a girl, "You are a boy who likes what you like, and that's fine," rather than turning clothes and color preferences into a gender issue at such young ages?
Posted by: JuliaL | May 12, 2008 11:59 AM
It's definitely a challenge, jba. It won't be easy for the kid. But then in context, she's facing some serious issues as it is. I think the best thing the parents can do is to place the burden on the society to accept the child, rather than the reverse.
In a way, transferring her to another school says "what you are has to be hidden." Asking the school to change will at least reinforce for their daughter the notion that there are people who won't accept her, but that it's those people who are wrong.
Life will be hard for the child, no matter what. But that will not change for anybody else unless there are more parents like these, and more school systems like this one. I don't want to encourage them to be timid.
Posted by: idahogie | May 12, 2008 12:05 PM
What would Relgious Right types think of a child who was born with both sets of genitals? Would they consider them male or female? - Curiously DJ
Posted by: DingoJack | May 12, 2008 12:06 PM
This will neevr work, not a billion years. In fact, I fully expect the sheer concentrated hate in that town to build up to such a level that it will collapse in on itself and create a black hole, taking the entire town with it.
Posted by: Valhar2000 | May 12, 2008 12:37 PM
Not to be confused with someone who does not accept the choices of others, I do have one question:
This boy knows in THIRD GRADE that he wants to be a girl? I didn't think I was too out of touch with young kids, having young cousins and such, but is this something normal?
I'm not saying he shouldn't do it, just asking if it is in any way a normal occurrence.
Also, though the notice was very short, I have to give congrats to the school for not being closed-minded about this issue.
Posted by: Heather | May 12, 2008 12:43 PM
Heather - when you were 9 years old or so, did you know if you were a boy or a girl? Why wouldn't you think this kid has realised that although he seems a boy he feels like a girl?
Posted by: DingoJack | May 12, 2008 12:56 PM
Perhaps the short notice was designed to prevent a staged protest or something similar. It won't prevent anything from happening later, it might make her first day a little less difficult if there aren't hoards of WND readers trying to intimidate her.
Maybe I'm just cynical, I just could totally see these assholes banding together to harass the poor kid.
Posted by: Leni | May 12, 2008 1:32 PM
Good questions JuliaL. I want to make clear that my experience is just my experience and not necessarily representative of all childhood GID cases. I'm sure there are a variety of reasons children identify one way or the other.
I was born male and now identify that way as well. (Who guessed right? *grin*) But in kindergarten things weren't so clear. I came home one day and announced to my parents that I felt more like a little girl than a little boy. By that age the behavior of boys and girls has differentiated substantially. The games and social interactions of boys confused and frightened me. It seemed to be all about dominance, being the toughest or the strongest. But the way girls interacted felt natural and interesting. They were about cooperation, at least when interacting with other girls. That's the community that appealed to me.
For me it wasn't just about the things I liked. I liked both boy and girl things. (I've joked before about trying to put dolls in trucks, but it's true.) It was also about how I was treated. Adults and other children interact differently with boys and girls. Assertive, dominant type behavior was tolerated and even subtly encouraged in boys, whereas girls were encouraged to be giving and nice. I was giving and nice. I wanted to be treated more like the girls, to be included in their games, and receive the same praise for the same actions that they did. Plus I didn't like the pressure to assert myself the way other boys did.
All I knew for sure I that I wasn't into the boy mindset and I was most comfortable playing with the girls. Yet to the girls I was just another stinky boy. So I didn't fit in there either. I resigned myself to being a boy. This conflict of knowing that I wasn't like other boys and feeling the draw of the girls persisted all through my time at school. It wasn't until after high school that I started to really explore the possibility gender reassignment. I started cross-dressing and going out as a woman. I took on a female name and really explored what it meant to be a woman. (It helped that I was a hottie. :D)
This continued off and on for about 5 years, at which point I decided I really did love my penis and that I was happy to be a man, albeit a man who still likes some pretty girly things. But my school years were rough. Perhaps if I'd been able to explore my identity that way as a child it would have saved me a lot of pain and confusion. I don't know.
To answer your question about stereotypical behavior and treating him like a boy who's into "girly" things. The focus on the child's preferences is most likely due to them being the most easily observable manifestation of "self." But I'd be surprised if that's all that's going on here. I wouldn't have a problem offering that option and letting the kid know they'll be supported. But also let them know it's okay if they want to try being a girl too. Leave it up to the child. They're the one going through it and discovering their personal identity. I think the most important thing is giving them room and supporting them in their choices.
Heather, it's not too uncommon, no.
Posted by: Abby Normal | May 12, 2008 1:38 PM
Abby,
I had two questions about the NPR report on GID.
Was the case the featured a particularly strong one, maybe chosen to make a dramatic case?
How much is GID cause because society forces genders into specific roles rather than allowing a person to be the role they feel comfortable in no matter their gender? (I guess the answer to this would vary from case to case.)
Posted by: Ferrous Patella | May 12, 2008 1:42 PM
Heather -- it's my understanding based on reading up on these issues (I'm not trans personally) that many transgendered people (not "transgenders" but that's just MHO) do realize in childhood that their insides don't match their outsides, even if they don't have all the words to explain how they feel.
People who aren't trans seem to have a hard time understanding what trans people go through, which is perfectly fine and very human and whatnot. It's hard to imagine being in the wrong body if you've never had those feelings. It's hard to imagine being anorexic, or haivng a debilitating phobia of feathers, or any number of things.
Where we run into problems is when people who aren't trans don't *listen* to people who are, when they try to tell them that their lived experiences are somehow invalid.
As for the pink thing, my guess is that the interior feelings came first and the external expression is what is shaped by stereotypes, if that makes sense. Maybe Abby can explain what I'm trying to say better?
Posted by: ethyl | May 12, 2008 1:42 PM
idahogie: "In a way, transferring her to another school says "what you are has to be hidden." Asking the school to change will at least reinforce for their daughter the notion that there are people who won't accept her, but that it's those people who are wrong."
A very good point. I really don't know what the best choice would be, I just can't help but think about the reactions of the kids in the recent Gideons Bible issue and how much worse this could be. I can't bring myself to go to WND, does it have a link to a source on this? I would really like to know a bit more about how the kid feels about the situation if possible, that would clear up some things for me. Heh, not that my opinion is relevant to any of this. I am however very glad that the parents seem to be so supportive. That's one of the biggest concerns in these situations.
Posted by: jba | May 12, 2008 1:44 PM
For jba and the others who are worried about the kid facing hostility from her peers, I'd like to point out that most transgendered kids who don't come out live through a hell of emotional and physical abuse from their peers. It is more normal than not to have been physically beaten on a regular basis throughout their school years. At least the school's announcement says to all the kids "we think this is okay"; some of them will still hate her, she will still probably be assaulted, but at least everyone knows she ultimately has the approval of the school. She can report incidents without being afraid someone will find out the reason!
Trying to switch her into another school as a girl makes her history a secret. I don't know how well third-graders keep secrets, but it's hard enough for adults. And what message does that send the kid? "What you are is so shameful we did our best to hide it"?
I've met a transgendered child. Her parents were not at all eager to accept the diagnosis, but after years of talking to an army of psychologists, they have more or less given up. They still make sure she has two dressers, one with boys' clothes and the other with girls', and give her the choice. For some reason it's always the girls'.
Is changing sexes all about stereotypes? No, but I can't exactly explain how not, even though I've done it. The best I can some up with is the there are some differences between men's minds and women's minds, and that the social roles in our culture (like, presumably, those in every culture) are designed to fit one or the other. Oh, anyone can be an astrophysicist or a soldier or a librarian, but there's some difference between the way you talk to a woman and the way you talk to a man.
My poor explanations aside, it's an observed fact that there are people who cannot be happy as the gender that matches the genitals they are born with, and who have as much chance of happiness as the rest of the world if you give them the tools to change that gender. Some (many) of these people know that at a very early age; some few of those are able to enunciate it and have a chance of making the change early on.
Remember, too, that at this kid's age - grade three, she must be what, nine? - nothing irrevocable is going to happen. She'll probably go by a different name and different pronouns, she'll take some abuse from classmates, and she'll start to grow up. The first time the medical profession will even consider intervening will be when she starts to undergo puberty - and then the intervention would be to delay puberty, not to start it down a female road. This kid will have a long, long time to live as a girl and know she's sure about this transition before any irrevocable steps are taken.
Posted by: Anonyme | May 12, 2008 1:50 PM
Two quick comments:
As the mother of a fourth grader, I am certain that a child of this age is definitely capable of being aware of which gender is the best match to the way s/he feels. In fact, I think that gender awareness starts way earlier than age nine.
I actually think that, given the cruelty and need for clear-cut definitions that children display, it's actually a better option to ask them to accept this child as the other gender, rather than to stretch their definition of gender. Once it comes to pass, they will pretty quickly accept it, and forget that things were different. Unless some meddling adults feel the need to remind everyone.
Posted by: acmegirl | May 12, 2008 3:14 PM
Sheesh, I have issues, but I really can't imagine what I'd have gone through if I felt that I was really a girl too. I saved myself the trouble of torment in school by not coming out, but I'm glad that these parents and school administrators are understanding and loving, regardless of what products of idiot households will say. Better than hiding it, and risking the kid taking their own life because they had to be afraid of being themselves.
I have a tough time with this issue, and eventually I really want to understand it, even as I'm going through the process of dissecting myself and the way that I myself think and feel, now that I'm out. I have to deal with people who question whether I really have "unchosen" attractions to men, so who am I to tell someone that they don't feel that they're really supposed to be the other sex? And is it the same thing, or is it just in how they express themselves?
I just tend to think that it's all about stereotypes. You can be a boy, keep your penis and still "act like a girl". I'm a product of the closet, so I'm "straight-acting"...but from what I remember of my childhood, I was just a socially awkward bookworm, and I never had urges to be a girl at all, though I'm a bit more sensitive and motherly/protective than other guys I've ever known, but who knows if that's me being gay or me being me? It's said that gay men have a "feminized" sexuality, something that I had to come to reluctantly agree with, because I'm in no way feminized (and as you can tell from that statement I'm still a bit insecure myself lol), so is transgenderism an extreme form of gayness? Or something else entirely?
So I guess in all this rambling, here's my thought. The stereotypes that boys and girls fit into are antiquated and lame. Why pigeonhole the kid into the stereotypes of wearing dresses when you can just say, "well, you're a boy, but how you act doesn't have to conform with how you think society thinks a boy should act"? Sorry if I sound like I'm parading out some arguments that religious bigots would, but I'm not, I'm really just trying to understand this sort of thing with only myself as a frame of reference. I'm a man, I'm not supposed to be attracted to men, I am. He's a boy, he's not supposed to want to act like a girl but he does...but does that mean he needs to be ashamed of being a boy, and wouldn't it be healthier to just help him cope with the paradox without saying "OK you're a girl"?
Posted by: paul | May 12, 2008 3:14 PM
Oh, one more thing. I'm not sure why the parents were upset about the short notice. I'm no psychologist, so I certainly don't think I have to do anything to prepare my children for what the counselor has to say. My daughter has a child with a brain tumor in her class. They counseled the children that he is very sick, but not contagious, and may not be in regular attendance. The letter to parents was sent out after the fact, so that we could follow up, in case anybody needed to talk about it more.
I think this is about not having a chance to protest. One day isn't long to get enough busy bodies whipped into a frenzy to DEMAND that the child be moved to another school, as some commenters suggested should be done.
Posted by: acmegirl | May 12, 2008 3:21 PM
Anonyme,
Yes, there usually is. But I don't think there has to be, or that there is a physical reason for the necessity of such a difference.
While I don't doubt you're doing what's right for you, especially in our present culture, I think the relationship between minds and roles may be just the opposite. Of course you are quite right in that many, even most people, still see it the way you have described. I think that view may gradually change in the future.
Abby Normal,
Thanks; that helps.
I have two children, a son and a daughter. My son was always very gentle, very sensitive, verbal, creative. My daughter was always sturdy, aggressive, domineering, good at math.
Though she is two and a half years younger than her brother, I had to watch her carefully to keep her from injuring him. She'd hit him over the head with a heavy object, and he wouldn't fight back. When she was nine, she beat up one of her brother's friends, while my son hid in the back yard. I had to drag her off, and carry her inside, where she continued for some time to yell and punch the air. In first grade, at recess she tied one of the boys in her class to a tree in the nearby woods and didn't admit it even while the frantic teachers were searching the neighborhood.
In the meantime, my son loved babies and little children, and they adored him and the patient attention he gave them. He was unfailingly polite, cheerful, and friendly.
They're now both in their thirties, she happily married with children, and he with an adored live-in girlfriend. But I wonder what the results would have been if I had tied their behavior to gender when they were young (as in, "That's not how a boy [girl] should behave.") I guess I'd like to see a time when gender roles are so far behind us that personality and behavior don't suggest one gender or the other.
Good for you -
Posted by: JuliaL | May 12, 2008 3:25 PM
A certain amount of gender exploration is common in children and they exhibit a wide range of behaviors, boys trying dresses, girls taking the daddy role while playing house. Whether the cases examined by NPR are an extreme form of that behavior or something else entirely is an open question as far as I know. If it's something else then the NPR cases are in line with others children. If it's all the same thing, then yes, those are particularly extreme. Sorry I don't have a better answer on that.
In my own case I was so dissatisfied with my biology I nearly removed my own penis when I was about 9. I tied a piece of string around the base, cutting off the circulation for over a day. Had I tied it just a little tighter or not needed to pee so badly I might have succeeded. (Luckily there was no permanent damage.) So in that sense, the NPR story seems pretty much in line with kids like me, who would be classed a pathological.
I really can't say. The research I've read indicates that family is a huge factor. But these research papers smack of the same bias that used to declare homosexuality a product of nurture as well. So, your guess is as good as mine.
Sounds about right to me. Though personally I've never much cared for pink. ;-) However whenever we played Star Wars, I was always Princess Leia. Well, unless the neighbor girl was playing. Then I was Vader and that's a whole new can of worms.
Posted by: Abby Normal | May 12, 2008 3:49 PM
Oh, one more thing that I think addresses some of what's been asked. I don't recall ever picking girly things to try and be more girlish. I remember being attracted to the same things the girls were, if that makes sense. I discovered I liked stickers, playing house, making macramé (hey, it was the 70's), and cat's cradle on my own.
In fact the girl I knew best was my next-door neighbor. She had a bunch of Barbie she was rather ambivalent about. But she loved my He-man. I was the exact opposite. So we worked out a deal where we'd play with one for half the afternoon and then switch. That seems odd if I was simply imitating the observed behavior of girls.
Posted by: Abby Normal | May 12, 2008 4:30 PM
Just wondering which restroom the child would use since by all outward appearances he would be a girl.
Posted by: JaWiHe | May 12, 2008 4:30 PM
I'm guessing the girls room. I've always wondered why we can legally have seperate restrooms for men and women but not whites and blacks. I'm not saying that should change. I'm just wondering what legal justification allows us to get around "seperate but equal isn't equal" in this case.
Posted by: Abby Normal | May 12, 2008 4:49 PM
I would think plenty of little girls' parents might have a real problem with a boy in the girls restroom; or locker room... Gets kind of complicated when you think about how some of the details would have to be worked out.
Posted by: JaWiHe | May 12, 2008 4:58 PM
Although I applaud the school's effort at tolerance, I have to agree with Pustulio that a one-day notice is pushing it. Whether it is to teach their kids about love and respect or to arm them with holy water squirt guns to shoot the sin out of the kid, the parents need time to discuss these issues with their children. The last thing the school wants to do is make the less open-minded parents feel like this issue is being shoved in front of them, and having the counseling on short notice was not conducive to that.
As for the bathroom issue, legally speaking, it depends on what's between the kid's legs. The school might be able to pull some strings, but if the kid is physically completely male he might be screwed.
Posted by: Brandon | May 12, 2008 5:35 PM
paul, I share your doubts about stereotypes. I mean really, why can't boys wear dresses? Women wear trousers, after all, and it was a Big Deal when they started. But I can tell you that being transsexual, the stereotypes are useful tools: if I want to be accepted as a woman, I have to give people a little push in that direction. If I can do that by wearing a skirt, or having long hair, or painting my nails, great. If we all wore unisex jumpsuits and shaved our heads a la THX 1138 I would have a lot more trouble sending the signals I want to send. Fortunately every human culture has ways to clearly distinguish men from women.
The stereotypes are not the point - I'm not transsexual because I want to wear makeup or dresses or wait longer in line for the bathroom or get paid less. I'm not enough of a psychologist, or neurologist, or sociologist, or feminist, or something to be able to tell you exactly what it is that I need. But I do know that thinking of myself as a woman, and having others think of me and treat me as a woman, has removed something that was driving me to despair. I think for transgendered children it is the same. The stereotypes are how they express something they feel; one might like to play with dolls (say) not because it's a girly thing or because they happen to like dolls, they like dolls because we teach girls to like dolls and they think of themselves as a girl.
I think the movie "Ma Vie en Rose" does a good job of telling what it's like to be a transgendered child. It doesn't answer the question of what it is that transgendered kids would really need if all our culture was stripped away, but at least it should provide food for thought.
Posted by: Anonyme | May 12, 2008 5:51 PM
We had a kid in grade school that had some kind of physical disability involving his sewage equiptment (I didn't ever want to know what, being a selfish kid myself at the time) so he had to either a) use the teacher's washroom or b) use the handicap washroom, depending on which was closer. It didn't impact anyone at all, it just meant that no teacher could tell him to "wait five minutes for recess", they had to let him go.
I barely remembered him until this thread... but there's options to washroom fascilities when options are needed. Not a reason to stop the child from attending school as whichever gender is needed.
Posted by: kodiak | May 12, 2008 7:07 PM
Ed offered this comment:
>>And there are more of them than almost anyone would like to think, babies born with dual genitalia, or ambiguous genitalia, and an immediate decision is made to physically make them one way or the other. >>
I know there are children out there to which this happens at birth, but they are a very small minority, and their numbers don't justify the radical changes transgender activists are demanding of society. Most of the people that are in the transgender category are not born with genitalia of both sexes yet they are demanding that society make sweeping changes to accomodate them when they decide to express themselves as the opposite gender (such as pushing for gender-neutral bathrooms in Maryland). I am always amazed at how indignant transgender activists get when average people have an issue with this. After all, would most parents really want their 12 year old daughter to share a bathroom with a gender-confused man? I know I wouldn't.
Secondly, I am absolutely astounded that parents would allow their children to decide they are the opposite gender than what their body says they are. What makes a parent believe that a child is capable of making such decisions? How more serious of a decision can a child make and parents just allow them to make it on their own and just follow their lead??? And how absurd is it that a parent would allow their child to disregard their biology and decide that they are of the opposite sex? What's next? Kids deciding they are birds or dogs??? It's not much more ridiculous, folks. I am astounded at how many people see nothing strange here.
I would be interested to see if the child in the WND story is indeed afflicted with the dual-gender birth defect, but I suspect not. Most stories I have read like this are of children with normal physiologies. If my suspicions are true, then I think people are right to see this whole episode as nothing less than disturbing.
Posted by: mroberts | May 12, 2008 8:12 PM
Give me a break buddy. You one of the type that just thinks it's icky and your bible doesn't say it so it must be wrong?? Because your post didn't show much thought. I suppose you think that me wanting to marry another guy is like me wanting to marry my fucking cat too, right?? Go away.
Posted by: paul | May 12, 2008 9:25 PM
I understand, at least partially, how you feel. So hopefully this won't apply to me. But I do have some questions if you don't mind. I would very much like to better understand where you're coming from.
Why not? What goes on in a restroom that would even make the child aware that anything unusual was taking place? Do you believe the "gender-confused man" poses some kind of threat?
Keeping in mind we're not talking about surgery, hormone treatments, or any other physical alteration of the child's body, why not let them explore this?
Do you really believe the difference between men and women is similar to the difference between humans and dogs or birds? Seriously? This one really has me boggled.
Posted by: Abby Normal | May 12, 2008 9:40 PM
"I've always wondered why we can legally have seperate restrooms for men and women but not whites and blacks. I'm not saying that should change. I'm just wondering what legal justification allows us to get around "seperate but equal isn't equal" in this case."
I think for children, the "tommy was peeking" factor that little children (of both genders) would get up to if left unsupervised is just easier to deal without. It gets trickier once you hit adulthood though. I always wondered why "co-ed" bathrooms were fine in university but aren't fine in the workplace (although in public arenas, you fall into the many problems of keeping children safe and confined that might necessitate seperate areas). Wasn't that a plot point on that strange lawyer sitcom?
I've actually heard of a workplace where they integrated the washrooms because it was turning into a "boys club" and important decisions were being made there (which could not be made by women, thus limiting the ability of women to be 'important decision makers' at the company, and limiting their growth potential...) instead of in offices
Posted by: kodiak | May 12, 2008 9:54 PM
Posted by: idahogie | May 12, 2008 11:47 PM
mroberts, is your thesis that since there are few people with ambiguous genitals, it's not important to protect them?
Sorry, that's a bit unfair. Let me try to address the points you actually raised.
You seem to be making a distinction: people with ambiguous genitals have a genuine reason to change genders, while people who simply feel gender dysphoria don't. As is probably obvious, I disagree.
First of all, whether it's all in the mind or not, gender dysphoria is a serious problem: the rate of suicidal ideation in transgendered teens in at least one study was 100%. Every single transgendered teen in their study group had thought about killing themselves. I don't have numbers on how many transgendered teenagers (and adults) actually go on to kill themselves, but I know from my own circle of friends that it's substantial. I've lost a friend in the last year to suicide. So I think that gender dysphoria is a problem.
But perhaps, since it's all in the mind, the correct treatment is to change people's minds. Unfortunately we are extremely bad at changing people's minds. This was tried, and still frequently is tried, on transgendered people. On a personal level, almost without exception, transgendered people in the process of figuring ourselves out are met with a deluge of disapproval and discouragement; even aside from that, the medical, economic, emotional and social costs of transition are enormous, so nobody transitions unless they absolutely have to. On a social scale, we could try to cure transsexual people the way some groups try to cure gay people; in fact it has been tried, with no more success. One school of thought - which I disagree with - in the treatment of transsexuals holds that some transsexuals simply have a sexual fetish ("autogynephilia") for themselves in a female body. In spite of this, these people - psychiatrists and psychologists with extensive experience - provide hormones and surgery to these transsexuals because they know that we basically have no other way to deal with this sort of thing. For a horrible comparison, pedophiles have a sexual fixation on children; we don't know how to change their minds on the subject, so the choices seem to be imprisonment or chemical castration (which in fact is treatment with testosterone blockers, the first stage in male-to-female hormone therapy). The fact that a problem is "all in the mind" doesn't mean that we can cure it by manipulating minds.
You are worried about the cost to society of accommodating transgendered people. Let's leave aside the cost to society of condemning even a small minority to despair and suicide. Many of the measures sought by transgendered people - the right not to be fired for expressing their gender, for example - cost society very little. Others, in particular a change in the way we think of gender, are a feminist goal as well.
Bathrooms, in particular, seem to really get people upset. It is not clear to me how gender-neutral bathrooms are, say, more dangerous to your twelve-year-old daughter than any other public space; if you're really worried, go in with her. But yes, gender-neutral washrooms get people up in arms. So does letting transsexual women use women's washrooms - though is a transsexual woman more of a threat to your daughter's virtue than a lesbian born with female genitals? I guarantee you there are more of them. In any case, in most places, gender-neutral washrooms are single-occupancy washrooms provided as a third alternative; they serve as a place to change babies, as washrooms for the disabled or those with medical needs that are embarrassing in a public washroom (injecting insulin, for example), and for those not comfortable using a public washroom. Women who look androgynous or masculine often report unpleasant encounters when trying to use ordinary women's rooms, for example.
Some of the objections to allowing transgendered people to transition appear to be concerns that men should remain men and women should remain women, and anything that blurs the line is bad. This I have no sympathy for; much of the goal of 20th-century feminism has been to make men's and women's roles more flexible, and I hope this process continues.
Posted by: Anonyme | May 13, 2008 1:28 AM
My guess is that most of them would consider the child to be a girl, as it is "tainted" by its female genitalia.
Posted by: Sadie Morrison | May 13, 2008 3:07 AM
Sadie - Yes too true. :(
However if the parents (or the child) choose to assign one sex or the other, isn't that a sin, since they are choosing to "play" their chosen sex (just like Transgender/Homosexual indivduals)? -DJ
Posted by: DingoJack | May 13, 2008 3:27 AM
Yes, because the opinions of "average people" are always spot on. /sarcasm
Posted by: Sadie Morrison | May 13, 2008 1:34 PM
Or, in my case, while I felt a certain resonance, albeit less intensely, with Abby's description of being a boy yet more interested in girl activities and the way girls tended to play together rather than physical confrontation and overt competition that tend to characterize young-boy-games, I really can't understand the mindset of someone who finds the body he or she happens to be in "wrong" enough, relative to their mindset, that they would subject themselves to surgery and such in an attempt to obtain the superficial appearance of the body they feel to be "right" even if it's not actually biologically functional as a member of the sex with which they identify. Of course, I don't understand and can't relate to the importance of gender identification in identity in the first place. I'll have to invent a word for my perspective, it seems...
Posted by: Azkyroth | May 13, 2008 8:00 PM
I'm glad I was able to express it in a way you were able to relate to. That was my objective. But I fear I may have done readers a disservice and would be remiss if I did not clarify that it was not rejection of typical boy behavior that drove me toward wanting to be a girl. It was more like knowing something wasn't right and then seeing what did seem right when I saw girls. I recognized myself in them. I think I rejected boy stuff for the same reason most the girls did, it just wasn't me.
You may want to look into androgyny (roughly, no gender identity) and pangender (identifying as both genders). Pangendered probably best describes me these days, which is one of the reasons I haven't revealed my sex online up until now. The internet has been a wonderful tool for allowing me to interact with folks without as much gender specific pressure.
I'm curious Azkyroth, and feel free not to answer, how would you feel about suddenly waking up as a member of the opposite sex? I mean apart from and initial "WTF?!!" Long term, do you think you would be just as satisfied with your body as you are with the one you have? If so, how big of a mental adjustment would be required?
Interesting side note, dissatisfaction with one's body identity and isn't limited to sex. Check out Body Integrity Identity Disorder (BIID) and you'll find a people who's self-image is that of an amputee. It's symptoms are very similar to GID. Generally they are aware at an early age that their body doesn't match what they feel is right and long to have an arm or leg removed. They show the same tendencies toward depression and suicide as GID cases until their body is brought in line with their self-image.
Posted by: Abby Normal | May 13, 2008 10:28 PM
Put it this way: contemplating the prospect, I would anticipate considerably more concern about finding the money to replace a closet full of men's clothes and the adjustments from people who were used to dealing with Alexander than with the change of body or any internal mental adjustment that would be required. (That and with my ASD I'd be at a severe disadvantage with a lot of the social rituals considered part of being a "typical" female). If I woke up to find myself in a situation indistinguishable, beyond my memories, from always having been female, I think I'd cope fairly well as long as I kept from walking into the Men's restrooms on auto-pilot. I'd have a horrible time trying to be a "typical" woman but I'd have a lot of trouble trying to be a "typical" man as I am now.
Posted by: Azkyroth | May 14, 2008 1:07 AM
(I should probably mention that I would be inclined to do the replacement-of-mens-clothes with the analogous sorts of practical and durable clothing, sized and fitted with a female figure in mind. I think...do they even make such things? x.x)
Posted by: Azkyroth | May 14, 2008 1:58 AM
I think that's facinating. Thanks for sharing. I have a feeling that the ASD may be a significant factor in your rather neutral stance toward gender identity. Would you say that's plausible?
Posted by: Abby Normal | May 14, 2008 2:07 AM
That's quite plausible, I suppose, though I'd appreciate if you elaborated a bit. If this isn't the place, one of us could email the other (Ed could facilitate this if needed?)
I would describe my personal experience as, I'm aware of being male, but I don't consciously ascribe much importance to that fact in my internal conception of who I am. Additionally, I generally have to intentionally handicap myself on the verbal portions to score as non-"female" on those probably-pseudoscience "brain sex" tests that proliferate on the internet, and find, in writing, that the character viewpoint that comes most naturally to me is that of an androgynous female. There are probably some other questionably significant indicators I'm missing, too...
Posted by: Azkyroth | May 14, 2008 2:36 AM
Don't cconfuse "sexual preference" with "gender".
It is perfectly possible to be a man (say) and be happy to be man, and yet love other men (or vice versa). Then there are those who wouldn't dream of becoming a man, but love dressing and behaving like a men (again or vice versa). Some love the opposite sex (from thier biological gender) but long to be the opposite gender themselves. Other want switch gender and love thier own biological gender. Yet others couldn't care less about sex at all (asexual). and others love both (bisexual). Some want to be of neither (or both) sexes (androgynous) but may love either, neither, male or female sexes (or even other)....
Humans are complicated creatures aren't they?
Thanks for the very interesting thread. It has given me a lot to think about. -DJ
BTW I am happy with my sex, but I can find either sex attractive.
Posted by: DingoJack | May 14, 2008 3:12 AM
My email address is DearAbbyNormal(at)hotmail.com if you'd like to take this elsewhere.
Posted by: Abby Normal | May 14, 2008 9:45 AM
This certainly has been an interesting thread, I really hope that you don't take it elswhere (or else include me in the email exchange - duwayne.brayton (at) gmail.com).
DJ -
You are absolutely dead on, we really are rather complicated creatures. For my own part, I am really uninterested in sex with other men (tried it when I was younger, just didn't do it for me) and I am uninterested in identifying as anything other than male. OTOH, I love to wear skirts and frilly, flowing accessories. Nor am I averse to wearing a sexy teddy or the like, to please a person I might be having Teh Sex with (though it no longer has the same effect since I started gaining a belly).
Being rather a flamboyant freak, when I was younger, a lot people assumed that I was wearing such clothes for the shock value. Others assumed that it has something to do with gender identity. And of course there were folks who just assumed that I am gay. The real reason only occurred to a couple of people - skirts are really fucking comfortable. Especially the long, light weight skirts that were my preference.
Azkyroth -
(I should probably mention that I would be inclined to do the replacement-of-mens-clothes with the analogous sorts of practical and durable clothing, sized and fitted with a female figure in mind. I think...do they even make such things? x.x)
Yes, yes they do. One of my old lovers was studying entomology and had to do some fairly rugged field work. She was rather short and rather petite, but had no trouble finding rugged women's clothing. Both Dickies and Carhart make women's clothing, though it can be a challenge to find. LL Bean and Eddie Bower have a lot of women's clothing that would also fit the bill, offering a better selection of clothes that are practical, durable and actually reasonably attractive.
Posted by: DuWayne | May 14, 2008 2:25 PM
And I have: "Gendermeh."
Posted by: Azkyroth | May 14, 2008 8:20 PM
Noted.
In the mean time, since others have expressed an interest, perhaps you could elaborate on the ASD angle?
Posted by: Azkyroth | May 15, 2008 1:20 AM
Now that I know you're cool with I'll do just that. But I must squeeze in a couple hours sleep before catching a flight and will be traveling much of tomorrow. So it may not be until the evening. Sorry.
But just to make sure my post will be at least somewhat relevant I want to confirm we're talking about Autism Spectrum Disorders, not Atrial Septal Defect, right? 'cause if we're talking about a heart defect then I got nothin'. ;-)
Posted by: Abby Normal | May 15, 2008 1:35 AM
Kudos! Wish I had the guts of you people, and in such a (generally) conservite country too! What cohones.
I had a flatmate who liked to wear sarongs. Strangely he seemed very worried that people (or perhaps just me) might think him a "poof". I pointed two things a) Even in sarong, high heels, nice blouse, and make-up, next to me most people would call me a "poof" and b) that I was single, and had lived in a shared house with him and his (Thai) girlfriend for over 5 years, He ceased to worry about it so much. (And thier sex got a lot quieter too.)
DuWayne - yep I know that belly problem well, being an ectomorph I've had it all my life. Have you tried "baby-doll" nighties? Sexy, but oh so flattering.
Posted by: DingoJack | May 15, 2008 2:17 AM
DJ -
Kudos! Wish I had the guts of you people, and in such a (generally) conservite country too! What cohones.
It's not so much balls, as it is that I used to do a lot of drugs and it never occurred to me that it might be a bad idea. Never really had problems with it, excepting a couple of parties and a bar that my band played. The second worse occasion led me to explain to a certain "gentleman" that he would find it regrettable, if his buddies saw him get his ass kicked by a man in a skirt. The worse led me to say something that will not be repeated here, as it was rather graphic, despicably crude and, well, lets just say that it was highly inappropriate - worked though.
It's all about attitude. When I am wearing a skirt, it is just as natural to me as wearing a pair of bib-overalls (my preferred work wear), with tools sucked away in them. I don't think of it as wearing women's clothing, because, point of fact, it is not women's clothing. It belongs to me and I am a man. The mother of a close friend once told me that it wasn't the skirt that shocked her, she had raised several boys. It was the fact that I was so obviously comfortable wearing it.
Have you tried "baby-doll" nighties?
No. I pretty much have given up on all that. Momma found it fun when we were younger - I doubt it would be all that exciting any more. Kind of a novelty thing. It just happened a wee bit more frequently when I was younger because I was a right whore and a half.
Akyroth -
"Gendermeh."
That is a very good descriptive. My last roomie (that's not my partner), who is a transwomen found it very apt and intends on using it.
To me it's become something much like sexuality. I have never been keen on identifying myself as straight, in spite of the fact that I just don't find men sexually attractive. It just shouldn't matter.
I am a human being and I like to have sex with other human beings. (I've been told that Michael Stipe said that very same thing once)
Posted by: DuWayne | May 15, 2008 4:07 AM