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Ed Brayton is a journalist, commentator and speaker. He is the co-founder and president of Michigan Citizens for Science and co-founder of The Panda's Thumb. He has written for such publications as The Bard, Skeptic and Reports of the National Center for Science Education, spoken in front of many organizations and conferences, and appeared on nationally syndicated radio shows and on C-SPAN. Ed is also a Fellow with the Center for Independent Media and the host of Declaring Independence, a one hour weekly political talk show on WPRR in Grand Rapids, Michigan.(static)

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Finding a Way to Ban GSA Clubs

Posted on: June 16, 2008 9:30 AM, by Ed Brayton

Remember the school in South Carolina where the idiot principal resigned (kinda) over having to recognize a Gay-Straight Alliance club at the school? Well now the school district is considering banning all non-curricular clubs so they can get rid of the GSA club as well. Anything to indulge your bigotry, eh?

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Willing to place bets on how quickly a religious club gets recognized after this rule change?

Posted by: Julian | June 16, 2008 9:49 AM

And I continue to be so fucking proud of the country I defend. A real bright light example for freedom, aren't we?

Posted by: Josh | June 16, 2008 9:53 AM

I try and try to defend the South as not full of idiots (which it isn't), but these assholes keep making it tough.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | June 16, 2008 9:56 AM

Don't worry Rev, people like this don't make it very easy for us Yanks either.

Posted by: Steve | June 16, 2008 10:04 AM

What will be the cherry on the top of this crap sundae if they do it? The wingnuts in the district will blame the ban on the GSA. It's "teh Gay's" fault and part of their "agenda! They're responsible for us not having any clubs."

I can see the WorldNutDaily headline, "Gay Agenda shuts down all extracurricular activity in South Carolina!"

Posted by: dogmeatib | June 16, 2008 10:07 AM

"School cuts off nose; face feels spited."

Some people are too stupid to breathe without constant reminders.

Posted by: Shygetz | June 16, 2008 10:46 AM

So it's time they started GSA sports teams. Then I'd like to see them trying to ban sports from the schools.

Posted by: tacitus | June 16, 2008 10:59 AM

If memory serves me right, there were counties in the South during the fight for integration of public schools that chose to end public schools altogether rather than integrate - so this is no surprise. Will take them another 30 or so years to begin to see gay people as people.

Posted by: BC | June 16, 2008 11:05 AM

Will take them another 30 or so years to begin to see gay people as people.

Thirty? You're giving them that much credit?

Posted by: Josh | June 16, 2008 11:06 AM

f memory serves me right, there were counties in the South during the fight for integration of public schools that chose to end public schools altogether rather than integrate - so this is no surprise. Will take them another 30 or so years to begin to see gay people as people.

There were. I believe Virginia (or districts in VA) ended up the lead defendant in a Supreme Court case where the court ruled that once a state takes it upon itself to provide public education, it has the duty to maintain that educational system. Overall though, if you look at a lot of the prep schools and other private schools in the south, strangely many of them have inception dates from 1956 to 1965 ... I'm sure it's just a coincidence, just like dusting off those old Confederate flags just happened to take place during that same time period. Funny, eh?

Posted by: dogmeatib | June 16, 2008 11:12 AM

Banning all non-curricular clubs seems like a very extreme measure. I can't imagine the students been very happy about that prospect.

Posted by: Cheddar | June 16, 2008 11:22 AM

They will lose in court. The kids should be able to have a club just like anyone else. This is discrimination and wrong. It is the majority being tyrannical to the minority. It goes against the very fiber of our Constitution and needs to stop.

Posted by: King of Ireland | June 16, 2008 11:58 AM

Umm, football isn't curriculum.

Posted by: Hilary | June 16, 2008 12:09 PM

In my state, Utah they have already done that. For a time in the 80's no school clubs were allowed. Recently the legislature rewrote the bill to put the responsibility on the school administrators to approve moral clubs, i.e. non-gay.
As a teacher, I try and do my part by calling out my students when they say "that's so gay". I try and embarrass them and increase the vocabulary of my students.That's about all I can do in this state.

Posted by: Dior | June 16, 2008 12:51 PM

I doubt it KoI, assuming that is that the proposal goes forward. Unless there's some bizarre local ordinance, schools are not required to offer extra-curricular activities. For example, my brother's middle school years ago canceled all extra-curricular activities to save money.

Out of curiosity I looked up what the school is considering sacrificing in order to keep folks from telling homosexual kids they deserve to be treated like people. Here's the current list of the extra-curricular activities at Irmo High School. I'm sure no one will miss them.

Academic Quiz Team
Aerospace Team
AFJROTC Drill Team
Art Club
Auto Tech. Club
Band Director
Band Show Concert/Flag Coordinator
Band (Marching) Assistant Director
Band Assistant Directors
Flag Front/Perc. (1st sem)
School Dance (Winter 2nd sem.)
Band, Jazz Ensemble Director
Beta Club
Black Student Union
Caring Project
Cheese Club
Civinettes
Daughters of the King
Debate Coach
DECA
Dinosaur Appreciation Club (D.A.C.)
Divas
Drama
FBLA
FCA
First Priority
French Club
Freshman Board
Future Rock Stars of America
Garden Club
German Club
Gospel Choir
Health Occupations Students of America
Hot Rod Club
Interact
Irmo High Book Club
Irmo Muslim Student Association
Irmo Singers
I Town's Finest Dance/Step/Twirl Team
Junior Board
Kayak Club
Key Club
Kitty Hawk Air Society
Latin Club
Literary Magazine
Math Team Coach
Miss Yellow Jacket/Mr. Irmo Pageant
Mock Trial
Model UN
Mu Alpha Theta (Math Club)
National Art Honor Society
National Honor Society
Newspaper Sponsor
Orchestra Club
Photography Club
Ping Pong Club
Programming Club
Quill and Scroll
Robotics - D5 Team 1293
Science Fiction/Fantasy Club
ScienceTeam
Senior Class
SkillsUSA
Society of Irmo Service
Sophomore class
Spanish Club
Spanish Honor Society
Speech
Starting Now
Student Council
Super Stinger Auto Club
Teen Talk
THOT
Ultimate Frisbee Club
Women in Science
Yearbook
Young Democrats
Young Republicans

Posted by: Abby Normal | June 16, 2008 12:59 PM

Cheese club?

Posted by: phil | June 16, 2008 1:04 PM

Dinosaur Appreciation Club

That's just weird.

Posted by: Josh | June 16, 2008 1:14 PM

"Cheese club" caught my eye as well. A Wisconsin HS, sure. But South Carolina?

What really has me scratching my head is "Sophomore class." Admittedly that's probably a fair assessment how I approached my Sophomore year (I cut school a lot my that year). But to see the school recognize it as an extra-curricular club was a surprise. :D

Posted by: Abby Normal | June 16, 2008 1:19 PM

Banning all non-curricular clubs seems like a very extreme measure. I can't imagine the students been very happy about that prospect.

exactly, and who do you think they'll take it out on? i'm betting that's precisely the intention of this move, too.

Posted by: Nomen Nescio | June 16, 2008 1:38 PM

Lines from that administration (made up in my head):

"don't worry kids, the addmittance boards of Universities and Colleges don't really look at things like participation in school clubs and programs when they are considering letting you in the front door... never crosses their minds"

"Of course Football is a curricular study! We made every gym teacher teach at least one class a year so that we can call it one!"

Posted by: kodiak | June 16, 2008 1:57 PM

Dinosaur Appreciation Club That's just weird.

I'm sure some students appreciate the district leadership.

Posted by: Reality Czech | June 16, 2008 4:33 PM

Folks, this has happened to Christian clubs too, so you can't claim self-righteousness on this one:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/june11/31.21.html

Posted by: mroberts | June 16, 2008 4:36 PM

"Dinosaur Appreciation Club" is on the list of clubs. That means that the school will get to kill two birds with one stone because they can get rid of what is likely an evolution-sympathizing club.

Posted by: Joshua Zelinsky | June 16, 2008 4:38 PM

Gay and lesbian clubs are one thing but allowing cheese freaks access to public school property is just disgusting!

The thought of our youth openly indulging in Camembert experimentation, sating each other with Gorgonzola and then gorging themselves on Gouda (a fromage a trios) fills me with rage.

Posted by: Lance | June 16, 2008 4:49 PM

I love you Lance! Cheese Club indeed!

They appear cornered - this bigots masquerading as educators. In order to be right - they are going to sacrifice all these clubs? "Right" as in human nature to justify just about any behavior to be "right" - not the political right...

Posted by: Mary | June 16, 2008 5:23 PM

You are an inspiration to us all, Lance.

Posted by: kehrsam | June 16, 2008 5:24 PM

Yea, it's wrong when it happens to religion clubs too mroberts. I will gladly accept the label of "self-righteous" when I argue in support of either type of club.

Posted by: Abby Normal | June 16, 2008 5:26 PM

Didn't a lot of southern towns close down their public swimming pools in the 60's, rather than integrate them? Talk about cutting off your nose . . .

If religious clubs do get an exemption, I say the gay kids should form a gay religious club; that would really freak out the principal.

Posted by: plum grenville | June 16, 2008 6:08 PM

Something similar happened at Clemson University in SC a few years back - when they found out they couldn't bar the GSA from starting on campus, they decided that NO clubs on campus would be given funding anymore so they wouldn't have to fund the GSA. Of course, that didn't last more then a year or two after students figured out they were still paying fees for student activities but no activities were getting money. But they tried.

Posted by: Adria | June 16, 2008 8:57 PM

@mroberts:

Folks, this has happened to Christian clubs too, so you can't claim self-righteousness on this one:

Note though that in that case a "homosexual group" was denied club status the previous year in that district; so it isn't a true mirror case.

Posted by: Robin Levett | June 16, 2008 9:02 PM

They banned the cheese club too?
But I love cheeses.

Posted by: nywoodsman | June 16, 2008 9:24 PM

mroberts wrote:

Folks, this has happened to Christian clubs too, so you can't claim self-righteousness on this one

Who claimed self-righteousness or anything remotely like it? Schools have tried to deny Christian clubs innumerable times all over the country. Guess what? I've reported those times and condemned those schools too. So what on earth is the point of that tu quoque argument?

Posted by: Ed Brayton | June 16, 2008 11:14 PM

And even if we were claiming self-righteousness, the exclusion of Christian clubs and gay student organizations are two unrelated occurrences. Just because "our side" (and anyone who would deny organization rights to anyone is not on my side) has done it does not make the actions of the "other side" any less wrong.

Posted by: Sadie Morrison | June 16, 2008 11:28 PM

>> I've reported those times and condemned those schools too. So what on earth is the point of that tu quoque argument? >>

Relax Ed, was just pointing it out. A lot of people out there (not necessarily including you in that) like to play the victim on issues like this while ignoring (or even participating in) the same thing when it is done to religious people.

Posted by: mroberts | June 17, 2008 1:44 AM

"A lot of people out there...like to play the victim on issues like this while ignoring (or even participating in) the same thing when it is done to religious people."

That cuts both ways. A lot of Christian people out there like to play the victim when Bible clubs are not allowed on public schools, but will fight tooth and nail to keep GSA clubs out of schools as well. There is a solution to this: schools should ban all non-curriculum-related clubs. Unfortunately, this is not possible with the awful Equal Access Act as law. I hope Congress will eventually repeal this unfortunate legislation.

Posted by: daniel rotter | June 17, 2008 1:53 AM

South Carolina is way behind the times on this one. The Utah State Legislature did the same thing in 1996, in an illegal closed-door session.

Posted by: Prof. Bleen | June 17, 2008 2:20 AM

daniel is right. I know of no one who supports the right of GSA clubs to form that doesn't also support the right of Christian clubs to form. But there are lots of people who support the right of Bible clubs to form but not the right of GSA clubs to form. David Gibbs' entire argument for the Okeechobee school's denial is that GSA clubs are uniquely able to be banned because they're "sex based." Same with Chris Buttars and the Utah legislature.

Posted by: Ed Brayton | June 17, 2008 2:31 AM

@mroberts:

Relax Ed, was just pointing it out. A lot of people out there (not necessarily including you in that) like to play the victim on issues like this while ignoring (or even participating in) the same thing when it is done to religious people.

But that's not what happened in your example; I note though that you only mentioned that that school district had banned a Christian club, when the real story was that the year before it had banned a homosexual group. Could it have been that the district was trying to do what Lexington-Richland is trying to do, and the Christian sports club got caught in the backwash? One thing for sure - that wasn't gays discriminating against Christians.

Posted by: Robin Levett | June 17, 2008 2:58 AM

Another thing to remember about the banning of Christian clubs is that it generally happens when admins try to (incorrectly) separate church and state. It come from not understanding the law, not a sense of bigotry.

Posted by: Sam Lewis | June 17, 2008 7:48 AM

What to do with "they're sex-based."

Answer: "No, they're *courtship-based*, just like the PROM." Oh yes, and then demand equal access for gay and lesbian couples, and watch the school board shut down the prom too.

Another potentially interesting tactic is to psychiatrize the School Board in open session: ask them about their own marriages and their own sex lives, ask them when was the last time they had a good orgasm, that kind of thing.

Look folks, the way to deal with troglodytes is to declare war and then push them right off the edge of the map. Ridicule, ad-hominem, and all the rest of it are fair when dealing with unrepentant bigots. The only things that are off limits are lies, threats, and criminal acts other than peaceful civil disobedience sit-ins.

"And you're telling me it would traumatize a 15-year-old to discover that men fall in love with other men, and that they like a good Monica as much as any straight president? And you let your kid watch violent TV that depicts murders? You're just plain nuts. Crazy and hypocritical and probably have serious problems with your own sex life."

Posted by: g347 | June 17, 2008 9:09 AM

Just to play devil's advocate here, what if some kids wanted to form a fellatio club and meet on school property to just to discuss different aspects of their "hobby" and not actually practice it? (Hey, I would have definitely joined that club!)

Joking aside, would that be permissible? Gay and Lesbian are descriptions of sexual practices as well as "lifestyles". I have no problem with these clubs and think they would help gay and lesbian kids during a very difficult time in their life but maybe public school property isn't the best place for these meetings.

Just asking.

Posted by: Lance | June 17, 2008 12:45 PM

Lance - what if it were a "fellating Jesus" club? Is that right or wrong? How do we decide this? Either we say: "what I think is right is permissable (and nothing else is)" or we say: "I can't make any sensible moral judgements about the actions of others except it hurts no other person", and allow it. How exactly do we draw the line? -DJ

Posted by: DingoJack | June 17, 2008 1:46 PM

I see your point DJ and like I said I have no problem with the GSA clubs to begin with.

If there is a club and they are not doing anything illegal during the meetings I guess they should all have equal access to school property.

Hmm what if the clubs advocate illegal activity but don't do it during meetings? Could the Grand Larceny Club hold meetings on school property?

Posted by: Lance | June 17, 2008 2:13 PM

Gay and Lesbian are descriptions of sexual practices as well as "lifestyles". I have no problem with these clubs and think they would help gay and lesbian kids during a very difficult time in their life but maybe public school property isn't the best place for these meetings.

Lance- I'm really hoping that saying the words "devil's advocate" meant "I don't believe what I'm saying here but someone else does, so I'll repeat this dirty crap." Because this is really bad.

Being gay is not a sex act. Being gay is not a lifestyle. Being gay is being attracted to the same sex. The fact that I even have to say that pisses me off.

Being gay LEADS to sex acts with the same sex, in a gay's private life. Do you know what you mean when you say "lifestyle"? It's who a gay fucks, because most gays are just normal people with normal lives. If by lifestyle you meant promiscuity, drug addiction, cross dressing, prostitution, porn, AIDS, circuit parties (all the sole domain of gays, right?)...but I'll assume you didn't.

This isn't a place where gays come together and hook up. It's not the equivalent of a gay bar at a public school. It's a group of like-minded people, gay and straight (the G and the S in GSA, respectively), who can come together and feel safe amongst their peers, to talk about issues that affect them. Oy.

Posted by: paul | June 17, 2008 3:11 PM

what if it were a "fellating Jesus" club? Is that right or wrong?

I don't know, but one of my landscapers says he's all for it.

Posted by: Abby Normal | June 17, 2008 3:35 PM

Paul, I think it is unfair to say that the "gay lifestyle" must refer to sex. My out gay friends and relatives are active in gay communities and gay events, which is unsurprising for any non-integrated minority. So I think one can refer accurately to a gay lifestyle and gay culture without referring at all to sex, much less promiscuity, drugs, STDs, etc.

Posted by: Shygetz | June 17, 2008 5:05 PM

paul,

I chose the word "lifestyle" in an attempt (unsuccessful apparently) to be "sensitive". I see from your reaction and a visit to the Gay Alliance website that the term "gay lifestyle" is now considered "offensive".

Perhaps someone should tell "Gay Lifestyle Monthly" and most of the other 980,000 mostly gay themed hits that a Google search of "Gay Lifestyle" returns about the change in the interpretation of that phrase.

Also how is it "dirty crap" to point out the obvious fact that the terms gay, and indeed straight, refer to sexual preferences and hence sexual activity. Your statement "Being gay LEADS to sex acts with the same sex, in a gay's private life" is just silly word parsing.

It is like saying being a "chocolate lover" LEADS to consumption acts with chocolate in a chocolate lover's private life. Being a homosexual MEANS you have sex with people of the same gender. The meaning of the term is wholly dependent on the sex act.

Now I suppose you can be a homosexual virgin and never have engaged in sex with a member of the same gender but since you consider yourself a homosexual (I don't suppose there is any other objective test, "gaydar" not withstanding) you must have a desire to have sex with someone of the same gender or why the hell would you consider yourself a homosexual? And thus the classification is based on the sexual behavior.

You're here, you're queer, I'm used to it, but don't try to make it like being a gay person has nothing to do with sex with someone of the same gender. That's just silly.

How do you suppose the club members will decide which of them is gay and which are straight? I think that might have something to do with whom they are "attracted" to, as you put it.

And let's see what could this mysterious "attraction" be about? Choice in fiction? Political party? Aftershave? Static cling?

Or, I don't know, maybe ... SEX!

Posted by: Lance | June 17, 2008 6:01 PM

So, what did you mean when you said that (paraphrasing) being gay has to do with who you have sex with and perhaps school property isn't appropriate for these meetings? Defend that statement and I'll see if I was just being hypersensitive, but I think you're just going to be doing some backpedaling, which I'll be OK with too.

Posted by: paul | June 17, 2008 6:46 PM

shygetz, I was responding the fact that lance was saying (in a thread about gay and gay friendly high schoolers forming a club) that being gay is all about either sex or living a gay lifestyle. My point, which may have gotten misunderstood, is that the club isn't about sex, it's about a safe environment to discuss gay issues, which have nothing to do with sex. And I stand by my belief that there is no gay lifestyle different than any other lifestyle other than who the partner is. Yes, I'm a younger gay, not in a "gay community", I'm just gay, and I do take offense, perhaps unfairly, to the idea that there is a gay lifestyle that should have any bearing on whether or not a club has a right to be on campus.

Posted by: paul | June 17, 2008 7:09 PM

How do you suppose the club members will decide which of them is gay and which are straight?

Funny, Lance, I wasn't getting any in high school, but somehow I had figured out that I like girls anyway. The point of a GSA is about coping with a difficult situation and standing up for your friends. The whole "sex club" meme is just absurdly stupid. That better describes the football team.

Posted by: kehrsam | June 17, 2008 8:25 PM

Lance,

I have to point out that if you take that position, you're going to have a hard time justifying school-sponsored dances, as they're essentially part of a mating ritual whose purpose is...well...you know.

As for the "gay lifestyle" comment, the reason for the reaction is obvious: The typical anti-gay screed has applied connotations to it that aren't easy to escape these days. In that context, it doesn't mean, "I'm a gay person and part of my life is seeking out gay partner." It's usually code for, "My lifestyle includes injecting HIV-infected semen into the eyeballs of toddlers and I should be stoned to death for it." People become attuned to these things and wonder what you mean when you say it, because depending on who you are, it means drastically different things.

While you're informing the people at Gay Lifestyle Monthly about this, you should probably give a call to the NAACP and let them know that we don't say "colored" any more. Alternately, you could just let it slide.

Posted by: Troublesome Frog | June 17, 2008 9:52 PM

"People become attuned to these things and wonder what you mean when you say it, because depending on who you are, it means drastically different things."

ya know, i thought i was clued in to these gay/straight issues, but now i'm not so sure. i've never seen "lifestyle" used in a negative fashion, and never would have guessed it could be.

but alas, i was wrong. i'm glad i double-checked this thread for new comments.

guess ya learn something new everyday. :)

Posted by: coreydbarbarian | June 17, 2008 11:03 PM

kersham,

I said I don't have a problem with GSA clubs meeting on school property (remember the devil's advocate disclaimer?) but to pretend that the words gay and straight have nothing to do with sex is idiotic.

Sorry to hear that you "didn't get any" during high school but had you gone to a meeting of the Heterosexual Club I think it would be fair to assume that you knew that the club had something to do with sex.

When I say I am a heterosexual man it means I am sexually attracted exclusively to women. It doesn't have a meaning outside of that context. Similarly being a homosexual means that you are sexually attracted exclusively to members of the same gender. It also has no meaning outside of that context.

As far as "gay lifestyle" is concerned I always thought it was an odd phrase and will happily never say it again. I only used it to in an attempt to define "gayness" without direct reference to the practice of sex with a member of the same gender which, as I have said, is pointless.

I think America is way too hung up on sexuality. I would like to see schools take a more active role in treating sex as a normal part of life not a verboten subject to be covered by parents if they can get past their religious or personal hang ups on the subject.

Having GSA clubs and then pretending that they have nothing at all to do with sex is a sort of a "don't ask don't tell" pretence that I think is unhealthy. I know they are not "sex clubs" but they should be able to discuss gay sexual issues along with the issues of how they are viewed by the society at large.

Posted by: Lance | June 18, 2008 9:52 AM

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