I'm sorry, I mean "heckler."

I wonder if the douchebag's head would explode if he knew that the pledge was written by a socialist?

Posted by: protected static | August 7, 2008 9:38 AM

Do they normally do the pledge at these events?

Posted by: Donalbain | August 7, 2008 9:43 AM

"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."

Voltaire

Posted by: Elf Eye | August 7, 2008 9:56 AM

You're all missing the point, HE SAID IT WAS A TOWN HALL MEETING!

Posted by: Traffic Demon | August 7, 2008 10:00 AM

I agree that Townhall meetings should begin with the Pledge.

Why?

Posted by: Dunc | August 7, 2008 10:12 AM

Well, had it happened at a McCain event, they would've arrested the guy on the spot.

Posted by: Will | August 7, 2008 10:21 AM

Dunc on why I think Townhall meetings should start with the Pledge:

First off, I think they should, not that they should be required. I also think there is a benefit in restating our founding values and promoting unity of cause. However, I also advocated for a guest speaker to follow reminding us of examples where we fall short of our ideals so we continually remind ourselves on how far we have to go to meet those ideals. It drives me nuts that conservatives actually believe they support freedom and liberty ideals when in fact I perceive them as the primary obstacles from actually living up to those ideals.

I also believe the term "Under God" should be removed from the Pledge given it violates the last clause in the pledge, is clearly unconstitutional and contrary to the founding ideal noted in the Preamble of the Constitution that "We the the People" delegated authority to government; whether people believe God was involved or not is a purely private matter enjoying freedom of conscience rights, but a notion that is antiethical to impose upon other Americans who may not believe in god(s) or attribute very different characteristics to their god.

Posted by: Michael Heath | August 7, 2008 10:35 AM

Nicole on why we should pledge to the feds:

It's our government, ya know - "We the People". When we're pledging to the flag I view it as a pledge to each other, not to the feds who serve us given that we delegate power to them, not vice versa. I'm cognizant that my point is abstract and from a practical perspective the feds have way more power over us then we now enjoy over them, which makes my point on my recommendation - we need unity and we should rally around the "liberty and justice for all" clause by reminding ourselves on who stands in the way of that and provides the feds their over-reach of power. And from that perspective I'm sure we can also find examples of liberal planks in violation of this clause that should also be mentioned in my guest speaker addendum proposal.

It's our country, we need to start fighting for it in the public square. I think Obama's response to this heckler was brilliant, I do wish he'd now proscribe what I recommend for following events.

Posted by: Michael Heath | August 7, 2008 10:44 AM

This may be a rather silly question (since you all seem to know exactly what's going on) but what exactly is 'The Pledge'? Is it an Ohio thing? A President thing?

Posted by: Lab Rat | August 7, 2008 10:55 AM

Lab Rat,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance_to_the_Flag_of_the_United_States

Posted by: Tophe | August 7, 2008 11:04 AM

Michael Heath: "It's our country, we need to start fighting for it in the public square. I think Obama's response to this heckler was brilliant, I do wish he'd now proscribe what I recommend for following events.

Well I agree, Michael. We should definitely proscribe what you recommend for following events.

Posted by: decrepitoldfool | August 7, 2008 11:12 AM

Lab Rat-

I can't imagine having anything like that in England.

Posted by: Taz | August 7, 2008 11:21 AM

This man is obviously unhinged.

Seem like he has a little of the Bill O'Reilly "I never got the recognition I deserve" complex. By the book, even though the book doesn't exist.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT | August 7, 2008 11:27 AM

T's Grammy stated:

Michael, under God wasn't in the original pledge. . .
But pledging is stupid in and of itself. You can have people stand like sheep mindlessly reciting something

And you completely miscontruse what I stated. I am perfectly aware of who and how the "under God" phrase was added, I never said anything ahistorical. Secondly, I proposed reciting the pledge only if followed with a speech that insured it was not a mindless recital by noting where we are deficient, that was my whole point, to insure it was not a mindless recital.

I love the pledge with exception of the "under God" phrase which I proposed we remove prior to your post, I just wished we insured we all lived by it.

I suggest you read others' comments a little more carefully prior to posting your own rebuttal.

Posted by: Michael Heath | August 7, 2008 11:45 AM

So, has anyone identified this nitwit yet?

Posted by: Dr X | August 7, 2008 12:03 PM

At first, he had an air about him that reminded me of Bill Murray in Stripes. Then, just plain Creepy McCreepster. He either just had a really, really bad day or is slightly unhinged.

And for the record, I don't care if the Pledge is said at a Town Hall meeting. Say it or not, doesn't make any difference to me. But "this is how a meeting should start, this is a free country," just doesn't make any sense.

Posted by: Andrea | August 7, 2008 12:11 PM

So I bought the twerps a Looney Tunes collection a few months back- multiple discs of classic 'toons. Good stuff.

One of the episodes they chose to include in this collection was a boring ass public service type thing with Porky Pig unable to recite the Pledge. Up pops scary ghost-of-UncleSam-Past who goes through some rah-rah America stuff. Eventually, Porky Pig is convinced and learns the pledge. Hmm, thinks I, this is not that funny, why didn't they stick to the good stuff? Later it hit me. This 'toon must have been written pre-1954. No "under God".

Those sneaky subversive lefties at WarnerBros!!!!!!!

Posted by: DrugMonkey | August 7, 2008 12:35 PM

@DrugMonkey:
I remember that cartoon. It is a vivid reminder that less than a century ago it was necessary to practically force people to take the pledge seriously.

But try to tell that to the "Why are you making the Founding Fathers cry?" wingnuts.

Posted by: BaldApe | August 7, 2008 1:06 PM

Someone should have told him they didn't stand or didn't say under god. His head would have exploded.Take a chill pill dude!

Posted by: ed | August 7, 2008 2:14 PM

Does McCain start his townhalls with the pledge?

Posted by: Cooper | August 7, 2008 2:36 PM

has something happened? I can download the vids, but "this is no longer available", video is dim with sound only. What's up?

ice

Posted by: ice9 | August 7, 2008 2:56 PM

Samuel Johnson got it right when he declared patriotism to be "the last refuge of a scoundrel!"

Posted by: Stephen Llewellyn | August 7, 2008 3:22 PM

Samuel Johnson got it right when he declared patriotism to be "the last refuge of a scoundrel!"

Posted by: Stephen Llewellyn | August 7, 2008 3:25 PM

Taz "God save the Queen".

No-one has said that seriously since 1977.

Posted by: MH | August 7, 2008 3:32 PM

Doubtless, Obama will be called 'arrogant' and 'elitist' by Hannity and his mindless moronic pals. I had to laugh - last night, I was channel surfing and I came across the great yellow elephants Rove and Hannity calling Obama arrogant...

Posted by: slpage | August 7, 2008 3:46 PM

SIEG HEIL! SIEG HEIL!

Oh, sorry, I thought that what with all the nationalist chanting we were in the middle of Nazi-era Germany. Can you guys scrap the pledge of allegiance and get on with simply existing? Seriously. I remember being at pre-k in the states when I was tiny and saying that nationalist oath, and I'm embarrassed that my parents didn't stop me from coming out with it. In Europe, that would be treated as an archaic relic and ridiculed openly. It really is atrocious that in America, a country founded by revolution against unthinking respect for authority, there is a pledge that all children have to say and which is genuinely respected.

Posted by: AlWest | August 7, 2008 4:00 PM

AlWest - Nobody has to say it. I do say it, and I never considered it made me a Nazi. Don't you think you're overreacting just a tad? For instance, could you point out all the "nationalist chanting" you're seeing in this post?

Posted by: Taz | August 7, 2008 4:07 PM

Konradius,

The misuse of the word "proscribe" aside, I actually rather like the apparent condradiction you point to. To me it's like saying, "Woo-hoo, I'm behind you a hundred percent, but...don't push it!" One extreme sort of balances the other out. Rather than finding it insane, I find it just sort of eccentric. Of course the fact that I don't find it insane might not speak well for my own mental condition.

Posted by: Observer | August 7, 2008 4:25 PM

I would never say the PoA. It is the same shit I witnessed growing up in a communist country.

Posted by: bullfighter | August 7, 2008 4:32 PM

Whether or not one thinks town hall meetings should start with the Pledge of Allegiance,there's something to what the guy said. Sure, he was ranting, and his rant devolved into toe Absolutely Nutty, but he did bring up the point that it is a public forum, and he could have been allowed to speak about soething.

One more thing to think about: Whether or not the Pledge of Allegiance should have "under God" in it, there's a real purpose in having kids recite it in schools(and possibly) have adults recite it at town hall meetings. The repetition of what it says reinforces the notion that American stands for something, or should stand for something, and that we need to get up and speak out and defend what it is supposed to stand for. This was, in part, the original purpose of the Pledge, anyway. And, as another poster pointed out, it was written by a socialist.
Anne G

Posted by: Anne Gilbert | August 7, 2008 4:50 PM

"America" is just a concept, and it exists only in your head. As a social construction the network of government it provides gives something to everyone, but to say that it "stands for" something is really just hyperbole, and no one can agree what it stands for, except that it probably contains the words "democracy" and "freedom", too emotive but amorphous terms. The idea that reciting something in unison with everyone else is supposed to represent and enhance appreciation of free speech is absurd.
And written by a socialist or not, it contains no mention of equality or anything else remotely socialist. It's just nationalist.

Posted by: AlWest | August 7, 2008 5:01 PM

Ed gives out "awards" for idiot of the month, etc. He should start giving out awards for best comment of the week. If I get to choose, El Cid wins.

All those fuckin' America-hating liberals just hangin' at Wal Mart.

Posted by: James Hanley | August 7, 2008 5:46 PM

Anne Gilbert,
A couple of points are wrong with your comment. Firstly, wether or not it was a public forum is not really the issue. In a public forum, there is a procedure for drawing attention to yourself, and yelling out while the main speaker is speaking is not the way. And doing so from the press gantry is DEFINITELY not the way. The press are there as observers and reporters, not as participants.

And as for the pledge, it is NOT a way that people "speak out", it does not re-enforce speaking out. It is a group think drone of repetition. The exact OPPOSITE of speaking out.

Posted by: Donalbain | August 7, 2008 6:12 PM

OMG, I said it's just a piece of cloth. LOL! I was possessed by the spirit of PZ.

Posted by: zy | August 7, 2008 6:48 PM

Americans are hilarious. You guys are arguing about this very old little poem all about how awesome your country is supposed to be. Look, we don't have to remind ourselves to be good citizens, to work hard together to produce a better country. For all the excessive patriotism and ceremony the US, as a country, does not reflect the so-called ideals you're supposed to be aspiring to. Really, it is a joke to other nations. Yours is NOT the greatest country in the world, and no amount of hollow, sheep-like chanting before your "town hall meetings" will change that. It's like you think "if we keep saying it, it will be true". Sorry, doesn't work that way!

If I'm patriotic about anything it is about the planet earth, but that's only because it is so awesomely capable of supporting my existence. And even then it was completely by accident...

Patriotism is really madness! Flag-waving, hand-on-heart, chanting, religious, idiocy... Get over yourself, America.

Posted by: Glenn Davey | August 7, 2008 6:59 PM

Shouldn't the first agenda item at all town hall meetings be on whether to pledge or not? And the second on what the pledge should be. Howabout;
"I promise not to steal anyone's country today".

Posted by: eddie | August 7, 2008 9:10 PM

It's interesting that those who went to private school just about never recited the pledge of allegiance. Maybe first and last day, or graduation, but that was about it. It was something to know, not something to dwell on repetitively.

The implication was that the pledge was for the multitudes, not the elites pulling the strings. On a more positive note, it was communicated that the pledge's patriotism echoed the taint of nationalism, and we all know where that got Europe in the 20th century.

Posted by: kay | August 7, 2008 9:45 PM

The more I think about it, the more I like Mark Adam's suggestion. Any school that requires recitation of the pledge should replace it with recitation of the Bill of Rights. Nobody could argue that it's less patriotic, and it certainly would be of more educational value. I love the thought of an entire generation knowing the BoR by heart.

Posted by: Taz | August 7, 2008 10:16 PM

It's all well and good to begin a school day with a reminder of how lucky we are to live in a relatively prosperous nation with a relatively free citizenry. But a pledge of allegiance? Seriously?

Yeah, that exudes the self-confidence of a great nation.

When did America start asking if it looked fat in this dress and threatening me if I ever left it for a younger, hotter country?

"Uh, yeah, honey, you look great. No, I was NOT just checking out the Czech Republic. She's got nothing on you."

Why should a country that is truly free need to coerce its citizens into pledging allegiance?

Posted by: itchy | August 7, 2008 10:58 PM

Just to lend a little history to this: I was a middle-schooler (for you non-Americans, that meant I was about 12 years old) in the early 1970's, and after considerable thought, and talking with some of the other kids at my Quaker meeting, I decided I couldn't in good conscience pledge allegiance to the flag, as we did every morning in school (near Buffalo, NY).

My "home room" teacher went ballistic. He wanted me expelled. The principal of the school called my parents in, and we came to a compromise: when the class was saying the pledge, I agreed to stand, but that's it. No hand on heart, none of that stuff. None of the kids even noticed, really. A couple said things like this:

"Why don't you say the pledge like everyone else?"
"Because I don't believe it - I can't pledge my allegiance to a flag."
"Huh. Cool. You up for some football at recess?"

And so it went. I sometimes think kids should have more influence in this country: they seem to have a more clear-eyed view of reality in some ways.

Posted by: Josh Hayes | August 8, 2008 2:17 AM

Lab Rat, we could always scrap the privy purse and give the Queen the income from the crown estates back, although to properly revert the deal she's also have to pay for the army/navy/airforce as well and they're the victim of random cost cutting enough as it is. :)

Posted by: Andrew | August 8, 2008 6:04 AM

Michael Heath wrote: "I proposed reciting the pledge only if followed with a speech that insured it was not a mindless recital by noting where we are deficient, that was my whole point, to insure it was not a mindless recital." How the hell would that make it any more mindless? Frankly, just going on myself, I'd tune that boring retroic out (especially if it were mandated and not a real expression of anyone's views, except perhaps for some totaliarist like yourself who pushed it into law) just as I used to daydream in school and church. Oh, and btw, it's not I who needs to read more carefully. It's you who need to write more clearly. Your post read as if you thought it should be deleted, not as if you knew it had been added. Doesn't look as if I'm the only one who perceived it that way.

AlWest and Mark Adams are right. And the pledge not mandatory? Sorry I was never informed of my right to opt out the whole time I was in school. And I can recall an incident similar (though not quite as extreme) as Josh Hayes relates above. About the same time, in the same state. My junior high in a suburb of Albany, NY. 7th grade. (Junior high and middle school are roughly the same thing to all non-US commenters; different school districts use different names, don't ask my why.) My Jehovah Witness friend and homeroom classmate (homeroom was where we proved we came to school as in took attendance before we went to our first period class and said the pledge) refused. 1970, well, after the Supreme Court had said Jehovah Witness' didn't have to. He didn't make a stand just quietly remained seated. Teach (she was a famed horror anyway, Miss Finkelstein renamed Frankenstein with cause by her students) went ballastic and sent him to principal's office. She was eventually informed, after much discussion and his parents and school board being called in, that he could sit it out. I'm presuming someone finally said hey, look, there was this Supreme Court decision about this a couple of decades ago. Not only did I not feel like I couldn't opt out (my religion didn't forbid it) but even those of us who were friends with this boy were whispering "Jehovah's Witnesses can't say the pledge. How weird." Nope, no social/peer pressure there.

I do remember going through a phase in high school when I was very disgusted with America and the rampant hypocrocies when the whole idea of pledging allegience to this country seemed out of the question. Still, it never occurred to me to rebel (even after my friend's example, after all, he got "excused" on a religious exemption that I was not privy to) openly. I took a page from Paul Simon and pledged allegience to the wall. I'd look at the wall next to the flag so teachers wouldn't notice and recite it, all the while feeling that it wasn't valid if one didn't look at the flag while reciting it, sort of like having your fingers crossed behind your back while promising something to a friend. I always found crossing your fingers dirty pool but didn't feel guilty taking Paul Simon's musical suggestion because I felt the government had no right to force me to pledge allegiation to them and their pool was dirtier than mine.

So, over all, though with adulthood and independent study of my own free will, not the crap they taught in high school (yes, I'm paraphrasing Paul Simon again; what can I say, he was my hero until he thought Willie Nelson not having to pay taxes was actually a good cause) I've grown far more patriotic, not so much to my country which hasn't always lived up to them but to the ideals our founding fathers set down on paper, I'd have to say the forced pledge reciting did more to alienate me than to stir to blind loyalty.

Posted by: T's Grammy | August 8, 2008 8:11 AM

I'm old enough to have been in high school when "under God" was added to the pledge. With that addition, I saw the pledge for what it was and is, a recitation without significance or meaning of any kind. So that now, whenever I encounter directly or indirectly someone like this idiot photographer who wants to force everyone else into mindless symbols, I rebel. I'll take moral and ethical actions over gestures any day. I detest flag pins, the pledge, and endless flag waving. Such actions may have had meaning originally, but by mindless repetition they become empty gestures, like promises in church to behave morally.

What really counts is what BaldApe called "'putting your money where your mouth is,' 'walking the walk,' 'witnessing by deeds, not words,' and I'm sure many other phrases..."

By the way, I wonder if right wingers have ever given any thought to the substance of the pledge, other than the words "under God." If they ever did, I suspect they either go silent or cross their fingers at the last six words "with liberty and justice for all." Also, per the Wikipedia article on the pledge, Francis Bellamy, the author of the original pledge considered and rejected including the words "equality" and "fraternity" since many people at that time (the 1890's) opposed equal rights for women and blacks. Which just illustrates how political the pledge was then and continues to be.

Posted by: Keanus | August 8, 2008 11:53 AM