Dispatches from the Culture Wars

Wait - she's Jewish and she's lecturing Obama on his Christianity?

That's messed up on so many levels I can't even wrap my head around it.

There is a grain of truth to this thought, though:

I can't renounce my Judaism because I'm irreligious, now can I?

I'm atheist now. But I'm also Catholic. I was raised Catholic by two Catholic parents and that is such a core of my being that I know I will never shed it. (I often tell people I'm a Catholic-atheist, in fact). I have Jewish friends who are similar - they're Jewish even though they are also atheists. Their parents were Jewish, they were raised in a Jewish family, etc. The religion you were raised in has key elements that inform who you are for the rest of your life - even if you reject them, your rejection of them becomes an important part of who you are.

Which, of course, points to why her comparison is a load of BS. Since Obama wasn't raised by his ex-Muslim father, he was raised by his Christian mother. So by any measure we use in the US he's Christian, and the medieval rules used in the ME have no bearing at all on Obama's religion.

And this isn't about religion anyway - this is about using the word "Muslim" as a racial smear the way that the word "Jew" was used in the first half of the 20th century and before. That's what this is - an ugly racial smear coming from someone who a century ago would have been on the receiving end of the same kind of treatment.

Posted by: NonyNony | August 4, 2008 10:13 AM

NonyNony, actually my understanding was that his mother was an atheist as well and Obama was raised non-religious only to be born again as an adult.

Of course, I would agree with you about this being more of a racial smear—they are being pretty blatant about it by claiming it is hereditary, after all.

And the idea that one can't renounce a former faith is absurd. You may still feel you are influenced by it as you are influenced by anything from your childhood, but for me to say "I cannot renounce my Catholicism because I was baptized and the Church cannot 'undo' a baptism, even though I don't believe in God, Jesus, or any Catholic dogma" would be ridiculous. I don't believe that baptism does anything so I don't believe there is anything to be undone. The fact that the Church will keep me on their rolls forever is rude, but not magical.

Posted by: nicole | August 4, 2008 10:29 AM

Muslims are scarier than atheists at the moment. Hey, when did that happen. I enjoyed the title of scariest.

ps Chris Bell, it's not that we are liked, it's more that..well...it's like muslims are baby eaters and we are just normal cannibals in their eyes.

Posted by: Richard Eis | August 4, 2008 10:32 AM

Actually many muslims claim that all new born babies should be counted as muslims. See

http://www.ehow.com/how_2186484_revert-to-islam.html

So, how did Ms Mercer loose her Islamic faith? I think e should be told.

Posted by: Matty | August 4, 2008 10:45 AM

>>>>Any rational person knows that you cannot be any religion "by birth." Religion is a belief and you do not come into the world with beliefs. No one is born a Christian or a Jew, a Republican or a Democrat. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a moron, plain and simple.

Ed, I had a Hindu friend once who told me that according to the religion's doctrine, one must indeed be born into the faith, and that no one can truly covert to it the way a Jew may convert to Christianity.

This said, I do agree with you that Ilana Mercer is indeed an ignorant dope.

Posted by: CHV | August 4, 2008 11:09 AM

Another Mercer lie, re her rhetorical insinuation Obama is no Christian without explicitly stating so:

Christian doctrine decrees that embracing Jesus Christ as personal savior is the only road to redemption. Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Obama disagrees.

Here is a direct quote from Obama:

I let Jesus Christ into my life. I learned that my sins could be redeemed and that if I placed my trust in Christ, that he could set me on the path to eternal life when I submitted myself to his will and I dedicated myself to discovering his truth and carrying out his works

Obama claims to have had a conversion experience and currently claims to commune with a risen Christ.

Mercer's position on what a Christian is wouldn't even allow Billy Graham entry to the faith given Graham's reluctance to count out those that don't subscribe to the Gospel of John quote Mercer used above.

Posted by: Michael Heath | August 4, 2008 11:16 AM

It's pretty funny to watch the Obama attackers run in circles on this one. From one side of their mouth they attack him as a muslim, and from the other side of their mouth they attack him as something akin to a radical white-hating Christian (via Wright).

It makes perfect sense once you realize that both these characterizations are simply two different proxies for the same thing: "Obama is a Scary Black Man. He is not like you and your neighbours. Did we mention he's Scary and Black?".

Posted by: DaveL | August 4, 2008 11:27 AM

Tyson Koska and NonyNony -- I think there is such a thing as a "cultural Catholic," just as there can "cultural" Jews, Muslims, Protestants, etc., people who don't believe the central theological propositions of a religion but whose lives, personalities, and cultural perspectives have been shaped by having raised in that religion's traditions. It reminds me of an old joke from the time of the Troubles in Northern Ireland:

A man was walking by himself through an unfamiliar section of Belfast when he was set upon by a gang of fellows carrying guns, knives, and clubs who demanded to know whether he was Protestant or Catholic. Fearing for his safety and not knowing whether he was in a Protestant or Catholic neighborhood, he asserted that he was an atheist, whereupon the leader of the gang replied "that's as may be, but are you a Catholic atheist or a Protestant atheist?"

Posted by: knutsondc | August 4, 2008 11:53 AM

Muslims may be "scarier" than atheists, but aren't atheists still harder to elect (http://atheism.about.com/od/atheistbigotryprejudice/a/AtheistSurveys.htm)?

It is not shocking that someone viewing the world from a Jewish perspective conflates "religion" with "race/ethnicity/other accidents of one's birth". Within the Jewish community, Judaism is commonly viewed as "a birthright" as well as "a set of beliefs". These things are linked in a much more dramatic way than they are in Evangelical religions that encourage conversion. Not to mention that there is good historical basis for "Judaism" being a race/ethnicity as well as a religion.
That said, there are plenty of children-of-Jewish-mothers who have collectively coined the term "culturally Jewish" to reflect some blending of traditionally Jewish ways of life with non-Jewish belief systems (or, commonly, total absense of a belief in the supernatrual). Considering oneself to be "Jewish" or "Jewish by an accident of one's birth, no more" are not the only options.

Mercer is a nutjob. In this country, we generally follow what seems to me to be the only practical course: we allow people to define their own religion.

Posted by: Becca | August 4, 2008 12:06 PM

Actually, THIS remark of yours is what is STUPID:

Any rational person knows that you cannot be any religion "by birth." Religion is a belief and you do not come into the world with beliefs. No one is born a Christian or a Jew, a Republican or a Democrat. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a moron, plain and simple. Other Muslims may think he's a Muslim merely because his father was; is Mercer endorsing that stupid idea? Funny how those who want so badly to paint Obama as a Muslim have to accept the absurd premises of the religion they are criticizing in order to do so.

It isn't what she or YOUR believe to be "rational" but what the religion itself dictates that she is talking about - and you know that, but you raise up this transparent straw man in order to attack her.

Bleh.

Posted by: No Dhimmi | August 4, 2008 12:41 PM

As others have pointed out, the whole "the child of a Jewish mother is a Jew" thing is about tribal membership, not religion, although it dates to a period when your ethnicity was expected to define your religion.

As with other societies in which such things as clan membership, inheritance and so forth were determined matrilineally, there's a bit of common sense to it. It's often uncertain exactly who a baby's father is, but it's really hard not to be sure of who the mother is.

At the risk of invoking Godwin, does this idiot's screed seem to anyone else to give off a whiff of the "Nuremberg laws"?

Posted by: Ktesibios | August 4, 2008 1:08 PM

No Dhimmi:

It isn't what she or YOUR believe to be "rational" but what the religion itself dictates that she is talking about

But if we don't believe the claims of the religion to begin with, why should we care about this at all?

Posted by: nicole | August 4, 2008 1:19 PM

So I guess if No Dhimmi is running for president and the Church of Satan declares that he/she is a Satanist because their rules say so, we should believe that No Dhimmi is a Satanist.

Posted by: Gretchen | August 4, 2008 1:58 PM

This sort of thing is all too common. Lemme tell you guys a story (a bit of background before it gets relevant; stick with it):

My son is five months old (as of tomorrow). Now, in utero, a baby's blood is about twice as thick as it is after birth; the blood thins itself which creates a chemical called "bilirubin."

In most cases, this happens flawlessly; the bilirubin is processed by the body and there is no problem. Occasionally, though, the biliruben isn't broken down fast enough and the level in the blood rises and brain damage can result (or so the pediatrician told us). Fortunately, there's a simple solution: A specific frequency (or set of frequencies, the pediatrician wasn't clear) of light breaks down the biliruben faster, so you put the baby under these lights for twenty four hours or so and the "bili count" drops.

As you may have guessed, this is what happened to my son. We'd taken him home the day before, and they called us to bring him back so they could put him under the lights.

Now since we'd taken him home, we had to readmit him to the hospital. So, my son was in the nursery and my wife and I were in the admissions office, answering questions.

Here's where it gets relevant. One of the questions was: "What's his religious preference?"

I understand that the hospital has to ask about religious preferences even if only for their own protection. If the question had been: "What's your religious preference?" there would have been no problem. But I was nervy that day (what if the lights don't work for some reason?) and so I said, rather more forcefully than I perhaps should have: "He's FOUR DAYS OLD. He doesn't HAVE a religious preference."

Posted by: ShadowWalkyr | August 4, 2008 2:55 PM

ShadowWalkyr,

I hope you aren't offended that your story made me laugh-- I would have loved to see the expression on the hospital administrator's face when you said that!

Posted by: Gretchen | August 4, 2008 3:10 PM

dkw: "But, on the other hand, every time a Jewish man and Muslim woman produce a child, an atheist is born. How about that?"

Well, as it happens,... my Ma was Church of England, who like Islaam dictate patrilineal religious inheritance. My Pa was a Russian Jew, with the afore-mentioned matrilineal religous inheritance. Guess what? I grew up an Atheist. If that is the proper label for one to whom religion is essentially irrelevant.

However, what you all said ...

Posted by: GrayGaffer | August 4, 2008 3:34 PM

There are a lot of things a person can be without believing him or herself to be (blue-eyed, fascist, a dog owner), but I have no idea how you could be Muslim-- or any other religion-- while knowing what the religion entails and honestly disavowing that you are an adherent of it. I hear people say that somebody is "not a true Christian" all of the time, but this is the first time I've heard "not a false Muslim."

Posted by: Gretchen | August 4, 2008 3:50 PM

Presumably what most people care about is whether Obama's beliefs are those of a Muslim, and it is pretty clear that they are not, even if it is also true that Muslims might claim him as a Muslim under Muslim law due to his birth to a Muslim father. There are different senses of being "Muslim", for different purposes.

However, what people seem to be missing is that fact that even hard-core Muslims who believe all children to be "born Muslim" don't consider this to "take" until the child is of the age of reason. A child who leaves Islam, whether by deliberate rejection or through ignorance of Islam and adoption of some other point of view, before the age of reason, around 10, is considered to be apostate but not subject to punishment. So from a Muslim point of view, Obama was born Muslim but ceased to be a Muslim due to his failure to adopt Islam.

Posted by: Bill Poser | August 4, 2008 4:49 PM

Trinity (particularly Wright) were hawking 'black liberation theology', whose relationship to Christianity is tenuous, at best. In Black Liberation Theology:

Philosophical views of God are largely ignored in preference for the concerns of the oppressed. White Christian concepts taught to black persons are to be disregarded or ignored. The aspects of God's person, his power and authority, as well as "subtle indications of God's white maleness" are said not to relate to the black experience, to the extent of sometimes being antagonistic.

Jesus is seen as a social liberator who focused on the emancipation of the poor and of the marginalized; his message is interpreted as encouraging "black power. His intrinsic nature and spiritual activity receive little or no attention. Some even deny his role as the atoning sacrifice for the world's sins and provider of eternal life (Shrine).

Salvation is freedom from the oppression and pertains to blacks in this life. Salvation is physical liberation from white oppression rather than freedom from the sinful nature and acts of each individual person. Presenting heaven as a reward for following Christ is seen as an attempt to dissuade blacks from the goal of real liberation.

Posted by: jhimmi | August 4, 2008 5:20 PM

As far as Mercer's idiocy is concerned, I think Bill Poser has the right answer. Clearly the Right is trying to paint Obama as "different," "alien," and not like the typical voter. Making him out to be a Muslim, even if he doesn't realize it, is simply a way of getting people scared enough to vote McCain (and given the "None of the Above" rhetoric on WND, it may not be working).

As to the larger question that Ed posits - I certainly believe you can be "born" a Catholic or a Jew, and potentially a Muslim for that matter, if only in a cultural sense. Certainly people have every right to reject or adopt any beliefs at all (and it is interesting to me that Islam allows for conversions to their religion, but no one can leave after age 10) but cultural aspects to a religious upbringing are likely to shape a person, no matter what their adult beliefs. Obama's having been raised by an athiest mother and a very-loosely Muslim stepfather may therefore be more relevant than the accident of his birth (but it's not nearly as scary, because his stepfather was Asian, not to mention being a drinker, so pretty much a non-practicing Muslim).

I here you knutsondc (about "cultural" jews/catholics/whatever) and it may have some relevance in Judaism (considering their somewhat more narrow bloodlines) -- but I contend that in the case of Catholicism the "cultural" aspects of it are so diluted as to be meaningless...

Clearly you weren't raised in an Irish-Catholic household Tyson Koska, because I know it was pretty strong in my upbringing. I remember, a la knutsondc's anecdote, when my Mother explained that "Irish-Catholic" was redundant and "Irish-Protestant" was an oxymoron. To be Irish was to be Catholic as well. That is the cultural/ethnic part of being Catholic, at least to me. I was taught about the lineage of brave Catholics who stood up to and fought the evil British heretical Protestant hordes (or something like that), and so my Catholicism came through as a much more political issue than religious. Of course, that could also be due to the continuing "troubles" during the 70s and 80s in the 6 lost counties of Ireland (incorrectly referred to as "Northern Ireland" by the press - there is only one Ireland and it is currently under occupation in those 6 counties) and the fact that my father was a Protestant convert to Catholicism (in order to marry my mother).

Once ethnicity and culture become wrapped up with religion in the way it has in Ireland or the former Yugoslavia or for the Jewish people, I don't think you can consider religion to be merely a set of philosophical or spiritual ideals, it becomes part of the identity of the person that cannot be fully changed, so it is something one can be "born into."

Interestingly, that is the argument the religious right has made for years about Americans - that we have this mythical proto-Protestant, Andy-Hardy-throws-a-show-in-the-barn, culture that must be "protected." In reality, that conformist culture was largely the creation of Jewish immigrants who ran the major film studios during the first half of the 20th century, but that's probably best reserved for a different post.

Posted by: CPT_Doom | August 4, 2008 5:46 PM

Actually, you are whatever you think you are. If Obama thinks he is a Christian, he's a Christian. If you think you are athiest, you're an athiest. If you think you are Jewish, you are Jewish. It's simple isn't it?

My husband is 100% Jewish. He comes from the tribe of Yusifzi, from the lost tribes of Isreal who were pushed out by Nebachadazer. They wound up in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Sri Nager. Abraham was told that from his two sons, he would beget nations. So, where are they? The Jews are diminishing every year. Why? Because many of them became MUSLIM over the years. Some became Christians (WWI and II helped) Some became athiests.

My husband's tribe became Muslim, then they accepted the Promished Messiah, so they are Ahmadi Muslims.

I wouldn't want to be an athiest. This is the age to accept the Holy Prophet and the Promised Messiah. Muslims are not scary. What IS scary is the depth of ignorance about Islam in America.

Anyone read a Quran? I thought not.

Posted by: Canadian Allison Became Muslim | August 4, 2008 6:13 PM

If you read the Holy Quran, a book revealed to Muhamed, peace be upon him, 1300 years ago, by the angel Gabriel, who is the angel of revealation, you would be able to spot a Muslim hypocrite in a minute. For starts, Islam means peace, so any sect of Islam doing otherwise is a hypocrite. They SAY they are Muslim, but they are not acting like Muslims. They are giving Islam a bad name.

Since I grew up Christian, let me ask the Christians how peaceful their lives are with alcoholism, drug addictions, worshiping of rock stars, etc. The worldy world is not a peaceful place. What is the answer? Get as many blessings doing good in this world, so that you make it to heaven in the next world, which is permanent.

To the athiests, I have to say, your stand makes no sense whatsoever. Who Created you? An accident. Not likely! I'd like to see the statistics calculating that. Believe in a day of Judgement where all your deeds will be written down on a list reminding you of every stupid thing you did. Then go out and feed someone who is hungry to prevent the very hot place from becoming your home in the next world.

You all seem to agree that Muslims are scary. Oh contrare! In Pakistan, the Muslims in Rabwah feed the poor every day just to earn blessings. When they have a problem, they give sadqah/charity so that their prayers are accepted. Sometimes they go feed a poor person and start praying on the spot. (dua) During Ramadan, they get huge pots and feed all the people passing by rice.

Now what you have done for your fellow man?

In America, people are dying in old folks homes (don't exist in Pakistan--it is too shameful not to care for your elderly) and one man had been dead in his house for a year before anyone noticed. Is that anyone's idea of utopia? That is where Chritianity and athiesm have taken us!

Posted by: Canadian Allison Became a Muslim | August 4, 2008 6:37 PM

Canadian Allison who Became a Muslim,

This is not the place to debate religions, but for your information, yes, among us atheists critical of Islam there are plenty of people who have read the Qur'an. I first read it when I was 13. Anyone who has read it will know that Islam is not a religion of peace. Muhammad himself engaged in considerable warfare, some of it defensive but much of it agressive and some of it out and out banditry. The Qur'an is filled with condemnation of non-Muslims and calls for their death and subjugation. The word "Islam" does not mean "peace", it means "submission". A "muslim" is "one who submits". "peace" is "salaam". (We atheists can learn Arabic too, surprise, surprise.)

Posted by: Bill Poser | August 4, 2008 7:30 PM

"Canadian Allison Became a Muslim,"

1. It's spelled atheist. I promise you, we're not any more athy than anybody else.
2. Whatever probability by which you judge it unlikely that we have come into being through random processes (which is not an accurate description of evolution anyway) you must also apply to the likelihood of the existence of a vastly more improbable being-- one capable of creating such unlikely creatures as ourselves. As improbable as it is that we exist, it is surely infinitely more improbable that your infinite god does.
3. How do you in one post proclaim that people are whatever religion they claim to be, and then in the next describe people who are not "true" Muslims?
4. If you think we all agree that Muslims are scary, then you aren't reading very closely at all. The statement that "Muslims are scarier than atheists" is intended to apply to the general thinking of Americans, and not people who are commenting on this blog.
5.

In America, people are dying in old folks homes (don't exist in Pakistan--it is too shameful not to care for your elderly) and one man had been dead in his house for a year before anyone noticed. Is that anyone's idea of utopia? That is where Chritianity and athiesm have taken us!

If I gave you a list of horrible things that happened in predominantly Muslim countries, would you accept that as evidence of where Islam has taken us? No, I thought not. With that in mind, please try not to apply the same fallacious reasoning to Christianity and atheism.

Posted by: Gretchen | August 4, 2008 9:15 PM

That is where Chritianity and athiesm have taken us!

Whereas Islam has brought us nothing but peace on Earth and liberty for all!

/I must say, however, that it's somewhat refreshing to be lumped with Christians as the cause of everything that's wrong in the world, as opposed to the usual scenario in which Christians are the ones doing the lumping.

Posted by: Sadie Morrison | August 4, 2008 9:19 PM

I've noticed that some Jews seem to have a strange perspective because their religion is also an ethnicity (or a few related ethnicities, or whatever).

Once I was discussing with a Jewish agnostic friend the concept of Ahl al-Kitaab or "People of the Book" in Islam. He was certain that I should qualify as a "Christian" despite the fact that I am an atheist and merely came from a Catholic family.

Muslims don't have any ethnic group that's associated in any non-incidental way with their religion. In the Jewish religion, the Jewishness of the mother determines the Jewishness of the offspring by definition. In Islam (as I understand it), it's more a matter of practice that the father is supposed to dictate (but not determine by definition) the religion of the offspring.

The only sense in which I've heard Muslims talk of people being born into a religion is from the ones who believe that everyone is born a Muslim, but corrupted as they grow up. Of course, this brand of silliness would make Obama no more Muslim than John McCain.

In any case, this is all beside the point you made, which is that insofar as religion matters, it's what the person actually believes that's important, not what their parents believed.

Posted by: Escuerd | August 4, 2008 11:11 PM

babes in nosebags

Wotthef***ingF***?!?!?!?!?! Way to wave the "I'm an ignorant, bigoted @$$#073" flag, ß!+¢#!

Hey! Who said that?! =ahem= Oops..... [gets temper somewhat under control, sits back down]

Christian doctrine decrees that embracing Jesus Christ as personal savior is the only road to redemption.

Only true in so many words if you come from a Calvinistic, pietist-evangelical tradition, whose basic concept of the human-divine relationship starts with "Total Depravity" rather than "made in God's image." There are lots of us out here for whom that's a weird and, to say the least, scripturally questionable idea.

Whatever. At least she's consistently ignorant......

/snark

Posted by: themadlolscientist, FCD | August 5, 2008 3:50 AM

I read Mercers comments to mean in her opinion anyone who attended Trinity "We Hate Whitey" Church and was able to sit through 20 years of "God Damn America" and "The U.S. of K.K.K. A" probably did not embrace the ideals of the USA or of Jesus Christ. Black Liberation Theology and specifically the writings of James Cone Phd. state things like "if god is not for us and against the white people then he is a murderer and we had better kill him" (from his book Black Theology and Black Power)I doubt those are ideals that anyone embraces in a progressive nation like our own. How long must we all marinate in the angry resentment of black people?

I will not patronize blacks by pretending Obama's pastor, Rev. Jeremiah Wright, is anything other than a raving racist loon. If a white pastor had said what Rev. Wright said -- not about black people, but literally, the exact same things -- I think we'd notice that he's crazier than charles manson. Imagine a white pastor saying: "Racism is the American way. Racism is how this country was founded, and how this country is still run. ... We believe in white supremacy and black inferiority. And believe it more than we believe in God
Imagine a white pastor calling Condoleezza Rice, "Condoskeezza Rice." and his own grandmother "a typical white person"

I do not believe "the legacy of slavery" gives black people the right to be permanently ill-mannered.."Obama tried to justify Wright's deranged rants by explaining that "legalized discrimination" is the "reality in which Rev. Wright and other African-Americans of his generation grew up."

Wait a cotton picking minute... at least since the Supreme Court's decision in University of California v. Bakke in the late 70's it has been legal for the government to discriminate against whites on the basis of their race.

Consequently, any white person 30 years old or younger has lived, since the day he was born, in an America where it is legal to discriminate against white people. In many cases it's not just legal, but mandatory, for example, in education,and in hiring

Is barrack Hussein Obama a Muslim ...or at least born a muslim and raised through his formative years as one?? Consider these facts from the ultra liberal NYT:

The Times sent a reporter to Jakarta to investigate Obama's childhood years there, and published an article on March 16 that included these details:

A close boyhood friend of Obama, Zulfin Adi, said Barack "was a Muslim. He went to the mosque."

Obama's first-grade teacher at a Catholic school, Israella Dharmawan, said: "Barry (Barack's nickname) was Muslim.

He was registered as a Muslim because his father was Muslim."

In the third grade, Obama transferred to a public school, where he was also registered as a Muslim. At the school, Muslim students attended weekly religion lessons about Islam.

In his autobiography, "Dreams From My Father," Obama mentions studying the Koran and describes the public school as "a Muslim school."

and most troubling in my opinion is that one of the concerns being expressed regarding Obama's ties involves his connections to Kenyan political opposition leader Raila Odinga, links documented through Obama's attendance at public rallies where he spoke on behalf of Odinga.

That's because Odinga admitted to Christian leaders in Kenya a Memorandum of Understanding circulating on the Internet is not fake, but a document Odinga signed with Muslim leaders in Kenya.

According to Jack Wheeler, the author of a newsletter titled To the Point, the Memorandum of Understanding allegedly contains a pledge by Odinga to make Kenya an Islamic state by re-writing the constitution of Kenya within six months after Odinga takes office as president, to recognize the Islamic sharia as the ruling law of the land.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?pageId=57363
(Picture of Obama in Muslim garb- not a cartoon this time)

Lets move on...(lol)
You make a joke out of the comment about being "born muslim" and let me correct you. I was "born Catholic" and it formed who I am and what I believe in more than anything else I have learned or read since. Barrack Hussein Obama ...the man with not one ...not two but three muslim names was born into a muslim family...period in the muslim faith women and their opinions or beliefs are not respected or followed. Barrack Hussein Obama's ongoing ties to The Trinity Church of I Hate White People" where he was able to hear the nation of Israel denounced and was able to read snippets in the church bulletin from the militant Hamas Leaders. And don't even get me started to his ties through Wright to the King of all America and white people haters ...Louis Farrakhan ...you know from the Nation of Islam! whom Wright broke US Law to travel with over to see their good friend Momar Khaddafi in Libya. Connect the dots people ...then throw in the large picture of Che Guevera in his office and you get a very angry ...very racist... muslim sympathizer (if not a closet muslim) and I am sorry people this man does not pass presidential muster and the thought that he might doesn't pass the straight face test ...don't doom america to 4 years of this racist as a knee jerk reaction to your hatred of President Bush ...you will be cutting off all of our noses to spite your face.

Posted by: Rogerisright | August 5, 2008 6:36 AM

And another thing - how can a person believe in both the values of the USA and believe in the values of Jesus, Christianity and the Bible? The USA is (rightly) about freedom of speech, freedom of religion, coveting goods and increasing the economic prosperity of the land, capitalism, big military, innovation and libertarian principles carried out at as many levels as is plausible. The Bible is violent, incoherent, restrictive, and explicitly bans most of the basis of capitalism in the 10 commandments. Jesus was essentially a socialist (not such a bad thing and a revolutionary thing in his time) who gave away goods, encouraged others to do the same, spread love and wanted universal healthcare, which he willingly provided himself free of charge. He talked of turning weapons into useful implements, of not allowing money in temples, and of so many other things. And Christianity as developed by St Paul is about Jesus resolving the problem of evil by his death.
Don't those ideals - the Christian and the American - seem a little, I don't know, completely against each other? In every way? Don't the restrictive speech and worship policies of the Bible end up tossed on the floor when one is confronted by the Constitution? Doesn't Jesus' socialism and anti-property policy seem at odds not just with modern America in general but with the lavish abodes and lifestyle desires of America's Christians?
Kinda seems to me like you need to synthesize your thoughts into coherence. Find something useful, use it, and discard what is nonsense, what is not true, not useful and so on. Then, you can progress as a human being and we can progress as a society.

Posted by: AlWest | August 5, 2008 9:11 AM

To Bill Poser,
It is good to hear that you read the Qur'an, but I would go back and read it again, assuming that you are older than 13 now and see the world very differently than when you were thirteen.

No, it is absolutely, positively not true that the best of prophets was aggressive some of the time or even any of the time. The Holy Prophet, peace be upon him, only defended himself. Every American is given the right to defend him or herself, so you can't see anything wrong with that, surely.

Once, the Meccans poured the afterbirth of a camel on top of him when he was praying. He couldn't get up. His daughter came and saved him. What was his revenge? There wasn't any.

One old lady dumped garbage on him every time he passed her house. One day she didn't dump anything, so he inquired about her health. He found out she was sick, so he prayed for her.

When he wouldn't give up preaching Islam in Mecca, the Meccans refused to sell anything to his family. This went on for four years. His wife, Kadijah, died as a result. What did he do to retaliate? Nothing

He left Mecca to go to Medina. They pursued him. He had a price on his head, so more than one man tried to kill him, but they were not successful. The stories are many, but there is no room to post them all here.

Posted by: Allison the Muslim | August 5, 2008 3:20 PM

jhimmi wrote:

Jesus is seen as a social liberator who focused on the emancipation of the poor and of the marginalized

Can't imagine where they would get a wacky idea like that. Just because Jesus said pretty much just that repeatedly in his teachings doesn't mean Christians should believe it. [/annoyed sarcasm]

Seriously,is it too much to ask that Christians learn something about the guy they claim to follow?

Posted by: Patrick | August 5, 2008 3:24 PM

Err, Allison, you might want to read this.

Posted by: Gretchen | August 5, 2008 3:53 PM

Allison the Muslim - You know, when Christians tell me that their religion is all about peace and love, and any Christian who doesn't live up to that standard isn't a "true" Christian, and that the Bible contains all I need to know, I think they're full of shit. But now that you've substituted "Muslim" for "Christian" and the Koran for the Bible, it's totally believable.

Posted by: Taz | August 5, 2008 4:18 PM

Jonathan Krivitzky said:

For thousands of years, you were Jewish if you had a Jewish mother, or if you went through an elaborate conversion ceremony. Period. End of sentence. For many Jews in the world, this is still true

You know what? "Many Jews in the world" do not get the privilege of telling other people what their religion is if those people themselves deny it, "end of sentence" or not. I think Ed is quite aware, as are we all, of the fact that Judaism is considered an ethnicity as well as a religion. But religious belief, at least, is not genetic. In terms of religion, if a person decides that he is not a Jew, he is not a Jew-- nobody has the right to say otherwise. Neither Jewish mothers nor anybody else get to reserve the right to determine the beliefs of others.

Posted by: Gretchen | August 5, 2008 11:47 PM

Oops, got an error the first time. Sorry for double-posting.

Posted by: Gretchen | August 5, 2008 11:59 PM

A man was walking by himself through an unfamiliar section of Belfast when he was set upon by a gang of fellows carrying guns, knives, and clubs who demanded to know whether he was Protestant or Catholic. Fearing for his safety and not knowing whether he was in a Protestant or Catholic neighborhood, he asserted that he was an atheist, whereupon the leader of the gang replied "that's as may be, but are you a Catholic atheist or a Protestant atheist?"

That sort of thing actually happens, no joke.

Something similar happened to me in Glasgow. I apparently wore the wrong color jacket (forest green) into an Orange neighborhood, and a very pissed-off-seeming guy came up to me and asked me if I was Catholic. Having no idea what the right answer was, said I was raised Catholic. That didn't make him any less pissed off, and he asked again. I said that actually I wasn't religious, and got ready for him to hit me. He was obviously ready to.

Then he recognized my accent, and said something like, Oh! You're a Yank! Sorry mate, nothing to do with you! He shook my hand and apologized for the hassle, and walked off.

It wasn't about religion so much as whether I was from the rival gang/tribe two streets over, daring to insult the locals on their turf by wearing the wrong gang colors.

Posted by: Paul W. | August 6, 2008 8:49 AM

It wasn't about religion so much as whether I was from the rival gang/tribe two streets over, daring to insult the locals on their turf by wearing the wrong gang colors.

The 'tribes' in question being, of course, football-related. You apparently ran into a Rangers supporter while wearing Celtic colours. Wasn't a Sunday afternoon, by any chance?

Posted by: MartinM | August 6, 2008 9:36 AM

They only call hum a Muslim because they can't call him a nigger.

Posted by: bullet | August 11, 2008 6:19 PM

Neither Jewish mothers nor anybody else get to reserve the right to determine the beliefs of others.

Of course not, and if Judaism was solely a belief, then you'd be right.

In fact, Judaism is not based on belief or faith. It's just who you are. It does imply certain responsibilities according to the Torah, but if you don't do a single Jewish thing or have a single Jewish thought, you're still Jewish. You may deny it - that's always your choice. Doesn't change anything.

You can be a Jewish Buddhist, a Jewish Muslim, a Jewish atheist. One has nothing to do with the other.

Judaism is NOT Christianity-light. Thinking that being Jewish has something to do with your personal faith is a very modern idea and it's not part of traditional Judaism.

Posted by: Jonathan Krivitzky | August 22, 2008 12:46 AM