Ed Brayton is a journalist, commentator and speaker. He is the co-founder and president of 
John Freshwater, the creationist teacher in Mt. Vernon, Ohio who burned a cross in a student's arm, is demanding that the identity of the student and his parents be made public as the appeal of his termination begins.
Freshwater's attorney, R. Kelly Hamilton, wants the names of the student and his parents to be revealed.Attorneys representing the Mount Vernon School District insist that doing so poses a danger to the family.
Attorney Jessica Philemond said signs around town that read "If the Bible goes, the student goes," are evidence that the family is threatened.
And no, R. Kelly Hamilton is not related to the R Kelly who likes to have sex with underage girls. He doesn't seem to have any problem putting a teenager at risk of abuse and retaliation, however:
After a recess in the 3-hour hearing today, Hamilton said he has heard no evidence that the family is in danger. He believes the school district is using the issue of protecting the student's identity as a "delay tactic.""People have a right to confront their accusers," Hamilton said.
And of course, Freshwater does have that right and this hearing includes that right. That does not mean he has the right to expose his accuser's identity to the rest of the world. You want evidence for this? How about the fact that there have already been reports of harassment and bullying at the school, including one student pushed into a locker and called a "stupid atheist bitch" for not supporting Freshwater?
Even without those, there is a historical context to this that provides plenty of evidence. In virtually any court case involving separation of church and state around the country in the last few decades, the plaintiffs have been the victims of retaliation, harassment, vandalism and abuse. Tammy Kitzmiller in the Dover case got death threats. So did Ellery Schempp 50 years ago. So have Matthew LeClair and practically every other plaintiff in a similar case.
Whenever Christian hegemony is challenged in this country, a subset of those who enjoy that hegemony and want it to continue react violently. It has always been that way. Hamilton is ignoring history. And frankly, I think he's doing so because he wants this kid to be bullied and he wants the parents to be harassed. That might make them decide to drop their case. And that, folks, is shameful.
Politics
Comments
Uh..
wtf.
Yeah I think that's pretty strong evidence that at the least there is some deeply held resentment of the student in question. How anyone could think differently makes my brain want to jump out of my ear.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | October 3, 2008 10:25 AM
Anybody see a larger problem here, namely a teacher that assaulted a student can appeal their termination. Why is this even possible?
School choice.
Posted by: Marc | October 3, 2008 10:28 AM
For a long time now, I've been advocating a return to traditional family values. Traditional ROMAN family values, that is, with lots of emphasis on feeding Christians to the lions. Seems to be the only way to deal with these maniacal nutjobs.
Posted by: SFTico | October 3, 2008 10:36 AM
And you'll know they are Christians by their love.
Posted by: Adrienne | October 3, 2008 10:39 AM
Marc: Of course he can appeal his termination: A government employee is usually assumed to have a quasi-property right in the job. Freshwater has the right to try and show that it didn't occur, or that it was a reasonable mistake, or whatever. The evidence is overwhelmingly against him, but he gets his day before the School Board, and presumably can later challenge his dismissal in Court.
As for, "People have a right to confront their accusers," No they don't. Under the Constitution that only applies to criminal actions, not civil administrative hearings. The attorney may be referring to the Ohio Constitution or the school system's administrative rules, I don't know.
I haven't seen a comment by AnneS for a while, but I believe she practices in Ohio. Perhaps she could clear up this claim
Posted by: kehrsam | October 3, 2008 10:44 AM
Dear Reverend;
May I steal that line? "brain jump out of my ear"? best.line.ever
Posted by: longsmith | October 3, 2008 11:25 AM
Follow-on to Marc's comment:
"Zero tolerance" policies make even less sense in light of this development. Student has a couple Tylenol in his backpack? Suspended for "drug possession." Teacher physically assaults student? Eeeeeh, we'll think about punitive action.
Posted by: N.B. | October 3, 2008 11:44 AM
why not react violently back? atheists outnumber christians.
norwegians burned churches in the early 90s because they saw it as a threat. how come americans are so lazy?
Posted by: sean | October 3, 2008 12:11 PM
why not react violently back? atheists outnumber christians.
norwegians burned churches in the early 90s because they saw it as a threat. how come americans are so lazy?
I don't know the stats in Norway, but in the US atheists certainly don't outnumber the Christians.
If people started reacting violently, it would be far more likely that the school would get burned down than the churches. Especially in a central Ohio town like Mt. Vernon. It's a nice little town, but definitely not high on my list of places I would describe as "open minded" or "tolerant".
Posted by: NonyNony | October 3, 2008 12:18 PM
sean wrote:
Um... maybe because it's hard to advocate and promote the underlying values of rationality and liberty by setting fire to people's stuff?
Troll.
Posted by: Sastra | October 3, 2008 12:24 PM
Religious fanatics of all creeds understand very well that an environment of fear and violence creates ripe recruiting grounds. The calm rationalism of science and logic is what scares small-minded religious fanatics, so they can only resort to intimidation and fear tactics. Religious peace, love and forgiveness is the big lie they tell themselves. Burning a church is a single, short-lived act of frustration and vigilantism, but it will not stop a single Christian, and it will certainly further incite and fanaticize masses of them. Peaceful non-confrontation in person, and using the courts to challenge their hypocrisy point-by-point will go much further, as Mr. Freshwater is already digging his own hole in this case.
Posted by: Tom A. | October 3, 2008 12:35 PM
SFTico stated:
As a non-, ex-Christian who favors zero religious anything from the government and given that I believe fundamentalism is prone to child abuse; this is the most vile, tasteless statement I've ever read on this blog.
Satire like this is no better than the hate spewed by social conservatives on their blogs and in fact, is worse than the vast majority of their content. We lose our moral authority when we pass by comments like this without condemnation. We might as well hand-deliver bombs like this straight to the far right.
Posted by: Michael Heath | October 3, 2008 12:49 PM
"As a non-, ex-Christian who favors zero religious anything from the government and given that I believe fundamentalism is prone to child abuse; this is the most vile, tasteless statement I've ever read on this blog.
Satire like this is no better than the hate spewed by social conservatives on their blogs and in fact, is worse than the vast majority of their content. We lose our moral authority when we pass by comments like this without condemnation. We might as well hand-deliver bombs like this straight to the far right."
lighten up Francis.
Seriously, these people murder, maim and commit atrocities "in the name of the lord" and you feel the need to prevent them from being mocked and satirized. Get real- Mock away! Mock Now! Mock Harder!
Posted by: buddy | October 3, 2008 1:06 PM
Religion totally rocks! I dare any of you to show me one bad thing that has ever resulted from it! Go on, just one. Plus, that Atheist Bitch probably totally deserved it.
Posted by: The Dentist | October 3, 2008 1:08 PM
Oh the harassment started some time ago, and not only by students. From an early June article in the Mt Vernon News:
Tell me that little stunt wasn't meant to intimidate.
Posted by: Spidergrackle | October 3, 2008 1:18 PM
School choice.
How does "school choice" in any way impact this issue? Freshwater could file an EEO case arguing that his termination was based on suppression of his religious liberties. He would lose, like he will in this case, but he could file basically the same sort of appeal and obtain basically the same sort of hearing where he could make the same sort of idiotic demands and have them, reasonably, denied.
Have you looked into the dismal failure that most "school choice" programs have been? Milwaukee, Cleveland, San Francisco, the entire state of Arizona. In each and every one of these cases, the vast majority of the privatized school efforts have been horrific failures, worse than the failing public schools that the kids left in the first place. For every successful voucher/charter school there have been 20 dismal failures.
Posted by: dogmeatib | October 3, 2008 1:24 PM
Now now, religious civil wars are nasty (Ref: Middle East; Ref: European Middle Ages), so let's skip the burning churches and simply wonder why this guy isn't going to jail along with losing his job? If a teacher burned a cross or even a pretty flower in my kid's arm, even if it would fade. I'd, have a few legal issues with that.
Posted by: GaryB | October 3, 2008 1:26 PM
I cant say as I blame them!
Jiff
www.privacy.es.tc
Posted by: Jiff WIlson | October 3, 2008 1:35 PM
What you fail to understand, Ed, is that Jesus would want this student to receive death threats. After all, didn't he say "Blessed are the Death-Threat Makers," or something like that?
Posted by: Pluto Animus | October 3, 2008 2:21 PM
"Whenever Christian hegemony is challenged in this country, a subset of those who enjoy that hegemony and want it to continue react violently"
Well said, The last paragraph really put things in perspective.
Posted by: Jonico | October 3, 2008 2:27 PM
I'm with Michael Heath - the Roman family values comment was in poor taste at best and a horrible generalization at worst. (For instance, I'm aware that I, a Christian, have been a part of any murdering, maiming, or committing atrocities, and I've been active in my church for years now. Maybe they're doing it wrong?)
Posted by: The Christian Cynic | October 3, 2008 3:03 PM
Sean -
I presume you are referring to the notorious church burnings in the 90's committed by members of the local black metal scene. Really had nothing to do with perceiving the church as a threat and everything to do with juvenile self-styled Satanism and general asshattery. Was extensively covered in the book "Lords of Chaos" by Michael Moynihan and Didrik Søderlind. Perhaps they were threatened by the Fantoft's architecture? They're a little creepy looking.
Posted by: MightyLambchop | October 3, 2008 3:46 PM
Wasn't it Varg Vikerness that did that?
Posted by: Turcano | October 3, 2008 4:11 PM
FACT: The percentage of ATHEISTS now out number the percentage of JEWISH.
People don't belive in the Easter Bunny / Santa Claus / Tooth Fairy, so why should they believe in a made-up god.
Posted by: Enlightenment | October 3, 2008 4:55 PM
There is no way you can prove that god exists without a bible, thus god only exists in a book of fiction.
Posted by: Enlightenment | October 3, 2008 4:59 PM
There is no way you can prove that god exists without a bible, thus god only exists in a book of fiction.
Posted by: Enlightenment | October 3, 2008 5:00 PM
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the courts withhold the names of minors as a matter of policy?
@ buddy: you RAWK! Stripes FTW!
Posted by: themadlolscientist, FCD | October 3, 2008 5:12 PM
School Choice - The parents could move their kid to a different school, the next town over.
How many more parents would do the same?
It may not solve the teacher problem (the school would have a lot more incentive to get rid of the teacher - as I highly doubt most parents, even evangelicals, would find this behavior acceptable), but the student would not have face harassment and bullying at the school.
Posted by: MArc | October 3, 2008 5:21 PM
As I wrote last night on Panda's Thumb, after the federal judge in their civil suit declined to order the hearing officer to preserve their anonymity pleading lack of jurisdiction, rather than string the process out for the months that an evidentiary hearing would have required, the Doe family elected to allow their identity to be revealed in the hearing.
Sentiment in the local community has largely turned against Freshwater except for the hard core of supporters from his church and associated Assemblies of God churches in central Ohio.
Posted by: RBH | October 3, 2008 5:33 PM
It sounds like Mount Vernon is one of these small towns which Sarah Palin believes are the heart and soul of the United States, a heart and soul filled with hate and violent religious bigotry.
I say "sounds" because I don't for a moment believe that everyone who lives there is like that but it would be encouraging to hear from the more moderate voices in the community.
Posted by: Ian H Spedding FCD | October 3, 2008 5:46 PM
Oops! Before anyone catches this and reads my previous comment in a straightforward manner, that should be:
And no, it's not a Freudian slip.
Posted by: The Christian Cynic | October 3, 2008 6:35 PM
Also, am I the only person who's going to comment on the (possibly unintentional) double entendre in the title of this entry? I didn't think there were allegations of lewd conduct.
Posted by: The Christian Cynic | October 3, 2008 6:37 PM
Freshwater updates:
http://dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2008/10/03/freshearing.ART_ART_10-03-08_B1_52BGGEC.html?sid=101
http://www.columbusdispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2008/10/03/Fresh03.html?sid=101
http://www.nbc4i.com/midwest/cmh/news.apx.-content-articles-CMH-2008-10-03-0024.html
Here is the text of the report of the independent investigation:
http://www.dispatch.com/wwwexportcontent/sites/dispatch/local_news/stories/2008/06/19/Freshwater.pdf
Posted by: wrpd | October 3, 2008 7:20 PM
Dead Christians are the answer to all of America's problems. You knew it before. Believe it now.
If you're a Christian, I have bad news for you: the Rapture already happened, and it was the pagans who were taken away. All of you monotheists -- Jews, Christians, and Muslims alike -- got Left Behind.
The second coming of Christ already happened, but my wife got an abortion.
Posted by: Eddie Van Helsing | October 3, 2008 9:44 PM
As a Kiwi living in New Zealand, I find this whole debate mind-boggling. A teacher assaulted a student, it matters not one wit if he had religious motivations or if he was just a plain nutcase. What is wrong with Americans that so many think it makes a difference what shape he burnt into the arm of a child? Would they think differently had he chose the shape of a circle? A square?
This whole business is NOT about religion, that's just a red herring, a way of making this debate about something other than this teacher's maniacal depravity, his abusive act against a child.
As for disclosing the child's name, that's just continuing the abuse and inviting others to join in.
This sort of fundamentalist nonsense, this hijacking of an otherwise straight forward issue (in this case abuse of a child by a trusted teacher) is what sickens the rest of the world when we look at American society.
Posted by: Alchemist | October 3, 2008 11:04 PM
Please accept my apology for my boy Eddie.
He hasn't been right since his father raped him as a child.
Posted by: Mama Van Helsing | October 3, 2008 11:15 PM
Hey, Alchemist, just be grateful that you don't have to live in American society. I do, and I'm an atheist. I know I shouldn't hate all Christians because the fundies are assholes, but after years of putting up with fundies' stupidity, I have just one thing to say:
Slay them all. God will know His own.
Posted by: Eddie Van Helsing | October 3, 2008 11:17 PM
I cannot believe that anyone would say that religion hasn't hurt people. "Religion" hurts people every day, even kills them. Religion is a product of man, not God and is therefore flawed. It takes on the interpretations of its leaders who are men, just men. Who wield and abuse their powers in the name of God. It crosses all faiths and is a cancer. Here we are with every sect and denomination saying they are the true way to
find God. Frankly, I don't think anyone knows the whole truth because man cannot be trusted. This teacher needs to be kicked out on his ass! The parents should sue the school district for the abuse their child receives. This behavior should not be tolerated. Period. If you are christians then start acting like one.... not like an al Queyda wanna be.
Posted by: sam | October 3, 2008 11:24 PM
Hey Buddy. Thanks. Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke.
Ya gotta wonder about people these days.
Posted by: SFTico | October 4, 2008 12:55 AM
Hey Buddy. Thanks. Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke.
Ya gotta wonder about people these days.
Posted by: SFTico | October 4, 2008 12:56 AM
Cynic - I didn't see the title as a double entendre until you mentioned it. Perhaps your post @3:03PM was correct after all. ;) -DJ
Posted by: DingoJack | October 4, 2008 12:57 AM
BTW, "Christian Cynic", I think you've obviously been listening to "Jesus entering from the Rear" by the Feederz for way too long now. How's that for tasteless, ya freakin' apologist?
I just refuse to take ANY of the Jesus bullshit seriously. It's a myth, like all other religions. That's why they work.
They're myths, you can project yourself into them, and then you feel validated. Unless, perhaps, you stop to THINK.
Posted by: SFTico | October 4, 2008 1:07 AM
Oh hey-
BTW, Christian Cynic, it's obvious you've been listening to "Jesus Entering from the Rear" by the Feederz for way too long. How's that for tasteless, you freakin' apologist?
I can't take this or any other religion seriously, they are myths. That's why they work. You can project yourself into them, and then you feel validated. Unless you stop to THINK.
Posted by: SFTico | October 4, 2008 1:12 AM
Just thought I'd point out, New Zealand has quite liberal immigration policies and we welcome _sane_ people from all nations. We have a great quality of life and beautiful surroundings.
I wish I could say we were free of fundamentalists and religious zealots, but that would be untruthful. What I can say is that such people make up such a small proportion of our population that they keep their most bigoted opinions to themselves.
As an example of this I give you the current general election campaigns. We go to the polls in November, and I couldn't tell you what the religious views of ANY of our candidates are. It never comes up as we just don't care. We are only interested in what their plans are for our country, and why they feel qualified to lead us.
We are very proud of our separation of church and state, and I am horrified by the thought that teachers anywhere would use their position, as trusted carers of a nations children, to force their religious views down their students throats.
As a nation we don't even teach "intelligent design" as a scientific theory, in fact, we don't teach it all.
The school board involved in this case should be ashamed, I know I would be.
What I still fail to understand is how this can be seen as a religious issue at all, a man _burnt a child_! I should think any right-minded individual wouldn't accept any "justification" for such an act, religious or otherwise.
Posted by: Alchemist | October 4, 2008 1:39 AM
Eddie, your desire to kill Christians do not help the situation. Rather, it turns you into exactly that which you claim to despise: someone who would use violence to control those who don't think or believe the same thing you do.
Even though the US seems to be lagging behind, religion in western society has been slowly losing ground to rationalism, and none of that is due to the burning of churches or murdering of religious adherents.
Genocide: it's wrong when Christians (or Muslims, or Sikhs, or Buddhists) do it, and it's wrong when atheists do it.
Posted by: sinned34 | October 4, 2008 2:03 AM
Boy, these threads really bring out the asshats. Funny how I don't see Ed's usual regulars making violent comments, just the drive-by types. At the least, that "helsing" troll should be banned for sockpuppetry.
CCynic: yeah, you seem to be the only one who saw a double entendre there. Perhaps it's that unhealthy Christian obsession with sex? You're right on about the Romans comment, though.
Posted by: DBC | October 4, 2008 3:34 AM
This entire comment thread makes my head hurt. I've been a liberal my entire life, but then apparently I find out I'm not as far left as I think, when someone says that violence is NEVER an answer. I have no personal stake in this whatsoever, but if I was this kid's parent, violence would have already occured, no doubt about it. If I had seen as many people supporting this nutcase as there are, I would have joined in riots in this city. If this got far enough along, I'd get off my ass right now and march in the streets against these fascist fucks. Anyone who can look at the facts and condemn someone for not just thinking on a theoretical level, needs to get out into the real fucking world and realize what's happening out there and what it takes to change it, or stay out of the conversation.
Posted by: paul | October 4, 2008 5:06 AM
Alchemy,
Rational New Zealand? Sounds tempting.
How's the real estate investing market there? Is the En Zed Parliament in the habit of transferring $700B of taxpayers' money to private companies?
Posted by: Spike | October 4, 2008 7:21 AM
"Sentiment in the local community has largely turned against Freshwater except for the hard core of supporters from his church and associated Assemblies of God churches in central Ohio."
Hey, Assemblies of God, isn't that the church that Sarah lies about not belonging to?
Posted by: democommie | October 4, 2008 10:27 AM
Touché, DBC - although I think you might not be so inclined to attribute such an unhealthy obsession to me if you knew me better. (It's actually more an interest in ambiguous headlines than in sex generally. I'm surprised no one at least picked up on that.)
As for some of the other comments (DJ notably excepted here), I'm glad that some people recognize obvious trolling when they see it. I refuse to engage people who purposely try to get under my skin - they're not worth my time.
Posted by: The Christian Cynic | October 4, 2008 10:58 AM
It's ironic that John Freshwater "is demanding that the identity of the student and his parents be made public as the appeal of his termination begins."
Why ironic? Because the standard modus operandi of the religious right, in my experience at least, is to shove their private agenda into the public face anonymously. They love the shadows, hate the light.
Case in point, from the Abbotsford School Board (Abbotsford being a Bible Belt ex-urb of Vancouver, in British Columbia): As part of an agreement to settle a discrimination issue some years ago, the BC Ministry of Education agreed to offer an elective high-school course for Grade 12 students called Social Justice 12. Among other things, this course deals with discrimination against gays and other minorities.
The Abbotsford School Board, a group that has much in common with Dover PA's board, has declined to offer the course, citing complaints from "concerned parents". The kicker, as a local columnist pointed out, is that we do not know who these concerned parents are, how many they are, which groups (if any) they are affiliated with... NOTHING. They're hidden, shadowy, unknown, anonymous.
Similar thing happened in an adjacent suburb, Surrey, when the Board there tried to ban GLBT-friendly books such as Heather Has Two Mommies from elementary school libraries. (Now that I think about it, I believe this was one of the issues that led to the Social Justice 12 course.) Anyway, the same so-called "concerned parents" surfaced but, again, were never identified or enumerated.
So if Freshwater (or his lawyer) wants the family's identity publicized (and no, he shouldn't get that), then every "concerned parent" with an agenda should be fair game as well. Let 'em stand up and be Googled. Or STFU.
Posted by: North of 49 | October 4, 2008 11:46 AM
School Choice - The parents could move their kid to a different school, the next town over.
How many more parents would do the same?
Have you ever lived in a rural area? The next school over may be 20, 30, even 40 miles away and could be utterly miserable. I thought you were advocating charter and voucher schools with your school choice comment, which sparked my reply. I have to disagree with the idea that the parents should move their kid to another school district. That's the whole point of having secular, public schools with state standards, so you don't have a local collection of loonies (regardless of their individual ass-hattery), taking over a school district and telling people, "if you don't like it, leave."
Posted by: dogmeatib | October 4, 2008 4:37 PM
ChristianCynic wrote:
LOL. Too late. That was almost as good as kehrsam's "Fraternal Odor" slip the other day.
I knew what you meant, but I laughed anyway :)
...
The comments about killing Christians are not funny. I'm all for crass humor, but those "jokes" are just idiotic. They look like a Chick tract version of the "mean atheist".
Posted by: Leni | October 4, 2008 4:51 PM
Dear Spike,
Hell, no! Our govt wouldn't dare, we all know where they live. Being such a small country, (only 4M people), our politicians know they still have to walk down the street with "the great unwashed", and in an effort to get along with the neighbours, they tend to remain reasonably down to earth. A few years ago one govt bailed out the Bank of New Zealand (not NZ owned I might add), and found themselves ousted within 6 months. No govt since has been stupid enough to attempt such a move.
Our housing market has taken a hit recently, due in the most part to the financial problems you are dealing with in the US, so now IS a good time to buy a house here.
Come on over, we'd love to have you! But you'll need to leave your handguns and nuclear power behind, they are illegal here. Also, we swear on TV, A LOT. We also show nudity after 8.30pm, including the occasional gay kiss.
Posted by: Alchemist | October 5, 2008 5:44 PM
Alchemist -
Unfortunately, I am just a few immigration points shy of actually heading over. I would really miss my handguns, but the loss would be well worth raising my family there. But rest assured, no matter how much it would depress my mom, we are working on it.
Posted by: DuWayne | October 5, 2008 6:11 PM
I think I got stuck in the spam queue... Pity. I'm sure that I was witty and irreverant.
Posted by: Modusoperandi | October 7, 2008 7:58 PM
Christians outnumber atheists+agnostics 100 to 1. Thats not the case though. If you want to end peacefully, change the government to get rid of all the filty conservative christians who are allowing people like Freshwater to not stand death penalty right now. If you want to destroy their churchs why not get the Hindu's to join you? Theres at least 300 million atheists and over a billion Hindu's and i think their pretty pissed off about christians pushing their beliefs everywhere. Why not team up and get rid of allt he religions that force you to "convert" like Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism? Conversion isn't helping people, its enslaving them, religion can only be free when people choose it when they can understand the world around them. There is nothing wrong with belief, its just when people try to get everyone else to think in their phycotic mindset that things go wrong. Get rid of the religions with missionaries, and peace will come to this world. Go VIOLENCE!!!
Posted by: God_Is_a_doG | December 8, 2008 10:15 PM
Christians outnumber atheists+agnostics 100 to 1. Thats not the case though. If you want to end peacefully, change the government to get rid of all the filty conservative christians who are allowing people like Freshwater to not stand death penalty right now. If you want to destroy their churchs why not get the Hindu's to join you? Theres at least 300 million atheists and over a billion Hindu's and i think their pretty pissed off about christians pushing their beliefs everywhere. Why not team up and get rid of allt he religions that force you to "convert" like Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism? Conversion isn't helping people, its enslaving them, religion can only be free when people choose it when they can understand the world around them. There is nothing wrong with belief, its just when people try to get everyone else to think in their phycotic mindset that things go wrong. Get rid of the religions with missionaries, and peace will come to this world. Go VIOLENCE!!!
Posted by: doG | December 8, 2008 10:17 PM
Good doG! [pats head]
To qoute a certain tennis player "YOU'RE NOT SERIOUS!!!".
"Christians outnumber atheists+agnostics 100 to 1." Actually not. Here (and America, and England) around thirty percent of the population identifes as having "no relgion" or being "atheist". That's around three Relgious (of all types, icluding Hindus) persons to every Athiest/Agnostic/Humanist.
"filty conservative christians who are allowing people like Freshwater to not stand death penalty right now." I don't remember anyone suggesting any kind of christian (conservative or not) has body hygene issues. If I'm wrong, please feel free to provide links as evidence for these specific istances. As for consevative christians being the only ones stopping Freshwater getting the death penealty, again, i don't remember anyone specifically argueing that common assault and violating his students' constitutional rights warrants such a penalty, provide links please.
"If you want to destroy their churchs why not get the Hindu's to join you? " Who said we did? Show evidence.
"Why not team up and get rid of allt he religions that force you to "convert" like Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism? Conversion isn't helping people, its enslaving them" Because Hindu are not idiotic, they know that as soon as they try to convert anyone, their gonna get it too. If you force someone to convert, then yes it is a form of slavery because, (as you acknowlege later) it is not freely accepted. BTW never hear of forced Bhuddist conversion, that would probably run counter to the whole thrust of their philosophy.
"its just when people try to get everyone else to think in their phycotic mindset that things go wrong. Get rid of the religions with missionaries." Yes exactly the insane beliefs of the faithful have prbably caused more misery and hardship per capita than every other cause. The Thirty-years War (1610-1640) wiped out 50% of the German Urban population and 33% of the rural population. [Imagine a relgious civil war in America that killed 142 million people.... BRB DINGO
Posted by: DingoJack | December 8, 2008 10:53 PM
[cont.]
Sorry about that, life intrudes.
142 Million dead (mostly in the cities) would be approximately the same as the Thirty-years War's affect in Germany on modern America. It devastated Germany and delayed (and warped) their development into a modern state. Compare that with the Second World War: 55 Million dead & (the worst affected country) Germany had 6% of the population killed (one way or another), the equivalent of 18.36 Million Modern Americans. So yes, I think that Religious wars are dangerous and devastating, BUT I CERTAINLY DON'T SUPPORT YOUR 'ANTI-MISSIONARY' position.
I have replied as if you were being serious, but if I've been Poe'd my only excuse is a lack of coffee leading to a (temporary) humour by-pass. -DJ
Posted by: DingoJack | December 9, 2008 12:15 AM