Ed Brayton is a journalist, commentator and speaker. He is the co-founder and president of 
After trying to change their sullied public image by changing their name to Quixtar, Amway is now reversing course, retiring the new name and trying to resurrect the old Amway name and rebuild the business here.
In 2000, after Amway become part of an umbrella company called Alticor Inc., the Amway name was dropped in the United States and Canada. The hope was that the company could emerge wholly remade in the world of online sales under a new moniker: Quixtar.Now, as Amway's 50th anniversary approaches in May, Alticor is retiring the inert Quixtar label and pouring millions of dollars into reviving the Amway brand in North America with market research, national television commercials, and ads in newspapers and magazines and online. The company will use a transitional name, Amway Global, before reverting in about a year to Amway.
"We thought, well, if we're going to build a brand, build the brand that everybody knows already," Alticor president and co-CEO Doug DeVos said. "It's going to be much more successful and cost a lot less and happen a lot faster."
You may have seen the new TV commercials for the company. Amway is a Michigan company, founded by Richard DeVos and Jay Van Andel in Grand Rapids in 1959. It is simply one of the most appalling companies in the world, in my view, a virtual cult that combines religious authoritarianism with motivational seminar material, a combination that makes me shudder.
Both the DeVos and Van Andel families are major funders of religious right politics. Bill Berkowitz notes:
As the company grew, the DeVos and Van Andel clans--two very conservative Christian families--become major underwriters of Republican Party political candidates and Religious Right causes. According to Progress for America, Amway's founders contributed $4,000,000 to conservative 527 groups in the 2004 election cycle. In April 2005, Rolling Stone reported that Amway CEO and co-founder Richard DeVos was connected with the dominionist political movement in the United States and that DeVos had given more than $5 million to the late D. James Kennedy's Coral Ridge Ministries.
If you want to learn all about the Amway fraud, go to Eric Scheibeler's site, Merchants of Deception, and read his book.
Politics
Comments
Amway: Because you can never have enough crappy generic detergent.
Posted by: lurker_above | January 11, 2009 12:41 AM
In 23 years of analyzing tax returns for thousands of people from all walks of life, I have yet to see one single person report a positive income from multi-level marketing - not one. I've seen people that have lost money, and have wound up with garages full of overpriced inventory that they purchased in order to buy in the "diamond distributor" level or some such thing. It's a great way to lose friends though.
Posted by: soboco | January 11, 2009 1:53 AM
The pdf file of Merchants of Deception is free for download. The site makes you jump through a ridiculous hoop to get that link, so I thought I'd share it.
Posted by: ivan | January 11, 2009 2:00 AM
Their ads run a lot on MSNBC, for some bizarre reason. It doesn't really seem like their target audience.
Posted by: Nemo | January 11, 2009 2:35 AM
I've got a short puff-paperback on Amway by a guy named Charles Paul Conn - he's a university president who also ghost-writes evangelical (and other, including one for DeVos) autobiographies. I picked it up because I'd previously read his 1970s Battle for Africa, about the exploits of Bible smuggler "Brother Andrew" in Africa - in which he also goes on about how South Africa is making a stand against Communism, etc.
Posted by: Bartholomew | January 11, 2009 3:39 AM
I've lost cousins to Amway, and a friend's brother to a cult.
The only difference is that I might see my cousins in the grocery store.
Posted by: chancelikely | January 11, 2009 4:34 AM
I got dragged along to one of these by a friend. I felt very sorry for the girl giving the presentation as she was so terribly earnest. You could have swapped in Jesus pamphlets and a bible reading and it would have been eerily similar.
Posted by: Richard Eis | January 11, 2009 6:39 AM
Amway: A Ponzi scheme, now with extra crap!
Posted by: Dave S. | January 11, 2009 8:10 AM
Except the returns aren't guaranteed, so you actually can keep it going forever.
Posted by: Scott Hanley | January 11, 2009 8:17 AM
My parents were in Amway while I was growing up. To this day the smell of dry-erase markers can still make me queasy.
Posted by: Jeff Hebert | January 11, 2009 8:38 AM
Don't believe in God anymore, but back when I did, Amway came to our church. Our pastor - wise beyond his years - ruled that no recruiting was to be done at church, and no product was to be brought to church (ie: for distribution).
Posted by: Paul Murray | January 11, 2009 9:00 AM
I've been subjected to the spiel, what a load of bullshit.
Any bets that DeVos or his partners in crime are helping to fund Coleman's lawsuit re: Franken's win?
Posted by: democommie | January 11, 2009 9:41 AM
I have some family involved in the Amway/Quixtar cult, but the whole MLM get-rich-quick mindset blinds them to the price and quality issues of their products. When they purged their house of other brands' "negative products"--i.e., competitors to what they sold--I began referring to Amway products as "Kool-Aid Brand."
I don't think they still believe they'll retire to a tropical island, but they're still far too invested--in every sense--in Amway's brainwashing about PV, Diamonds, motivational tapes, and being "small business owners."
What a crock.
Posted by: cognitive dissident | January 11, 2009 10:08 AM
Van Andel Creation "Research" Center is a building owned by the Creation "Research" Society. The linked to page is unintentionally amusing. They have a gas chromatograph, rock crusher, balance, amateur telescope, electron microscope, and -- wait for it -- a computer. Wow, that is totally craptacular -- must have built by Amway.
Posted by: a lurker | January 11, 2009 12:36 PM
Long time lurker, first time commenter! You couldn't be more correct about what an insidious organization Amway is. My anti-organized religion agnostic parents joined when I was kid back in the early to mid '80's. It wasn't long before their diamond distributor (that's someone two steps up from the bottom of the Ponzi pyramid, for the uninitiated) was holding bible studies. A couple of months later, I was being dragged to religious services in the guys home. It was hardcore, evangelical style preaching with speaking in tongues, people flopping around and the whole nine yards. The 'rents finally came to their senses when their religious leader was charged with neglect/abuse for not seeking medical treatment for his kid because he was certain that god was going to cure her. The only good that came of it is that I believe Amway is in some part responsible for my atheism. The commercials seem to be everywhere I look now, and they really get my hackles up.
Posted by: FierceGeekChick | January 11, 2009 2:38 PM
One of Richard DeVos sons is married to the sister of Erik Prince, founder of Blackwater USA, the infamous "security" contractor that has earned billions in Iraq. The Prince family foundation funds every sort of loony right wing and fundy cause, including James Dobson's Focus on the Family. Truly scary people, these.
Posted by: bigtom | January 11, 2009 2:52 PM
I lost a brother-in-law to Amway. He actually tried to lasso me into it, trying to get me to come to a friend's house for a "business opportunity." He was really evasive when I pressed for more information, and when I finally asked, "It's not Amway, is it?" He responded, "What's Amway?"
He was lying, of course. Things have been difficult with him and his wife ever since. Haven't seen him now in about 5 years.
He DID get my neighbor into it, though, a low-income single mom who cornered me in my driveway about it one day. I said flatly, "There's something wrong with a 'job' that requires you to pay $365 just to get in."
She countered, "But that's it!!! After that, you're on your own, owning your own business!!"
I said, "It doesn't cost anything to get a real job. And anyway, that's not 'it.' You have to travel all over the country to seminars where you have to pay your own travel and housing expenses, and admission to the seminar! You yourself just returned from a trip to Pennsylvania, and it cost you over $500 (which she could hardly afford). That tells me it's a scam."
I really felt sorry for her.
One more thing....readers here who aren't from Michigan may not know that Dick DeVos, son of Richard, unsuccessfully ran for governor in '06. He was the Republican nominee. His ads were horrifying propaganda. The election wasn't close, but close enough to scare the shit out of me.
He also led an effort for a ballot proposal for school vouchers in '02, I think, and thankfully that failed, too.
All those DeVos people are megalomaniacal assholes who care not a whit about the 'little' people.
Posted by: kshep | January 11, 2009 3:53 PM
Dick DeVos is an especially disgusting person, and so is his wife. Two antecdotes:
Once, speaking to our students he made this comment on donating (time, money, or both) to any organization: "Always ask yourself what you will get back from the donation, whether publicity or something else. If you decide the return isn't worth it, don't donate."
His wife (separate time, but again, addressing our students). "Family is the most important thing. Last year I could have gone to a very nice meeting on Mackinac Island, but my son's
school was having a picnic that day, and I knew he'd rather have his loving mother there, with a good home-made meal, than have her gone. So I didn't go, and had the help put together a great picnic meal for us. It was great."
It isn't only their business sides that are slimey, it's their personal sides as well.
Posted by: dean | January 11, 2009 4:16 PM
As embarrassing as it is to admit my ex and I got conned into joining by two good friends of hers. As a hard core atheist I was disgusted by the overt religiosity once you're through the door. Needless to say I abandoned the "investment" ASAP.
I'm glad someone else mentioned Blackwater - Prince is very deep into Amway.
Posted by: Doug Alder | January 11, 2009 4:48 PM
Well, there are two ways to make money in an MLM
The first is to start one.
The second is to buy your way into Blue Diamond or whatever they call it. Then you travel around the country charging everyone stupid amounts of money to hear your BS motivational speeches about how great your life is in the MLM.
At a weaker point in my life I almost agreed to work for a guy who was attempting to do that in Mannatech. The company I worked for had me videotaping some of his presentations. The company went belly up before we had a chance to edit the videos, and he asked me to be his video guy. Film and edit the presentations, make slick looking DVD's and sell them to the poor saps in Mannatech for 50 bucks a pop. I was poor, unemployed and living in Colorado Springs at the time. The only other production work I was gonna get was if I signed a statement of faith at Focus on the Family and worked in their media department (wow, I'm probably the only person hanging around Science Blogs that has been faced with Manntech and FOTF as the only two job openings in their field). It seemed appealing for a day or two, but I wised up and stopped returning his calls. At the time, I actually tried to rationalize that I knew MLM's were evil. But if I wasn't trying to get people into Mannatech, and only selling crap to the converted, that I might still be able to sleep at night. I now know that Mannatch is pure unadulterated, evil, as are all MLM's. The only thing that could set the bar lower then scum that is Manntech, is if Jenny McCarthy started an MLM hawking autism cures.
Posted by: justin | January 11, 2009 5:03 PM
The top distributors in Amway can not make a living by
supplying their down line with products and selling to
customers.
The only way the Directs in this business can make money
is by been a P.S.D. (Profit Sharing Direct) In other words
they make money from the sales of tapes, books & the sales
of tickets to functions. This is controlled by I.B.S.
(International Business systems) This is outside the
control of Amway as the function of Amway is to distribute
the products. The only way I.B.S. can keep the Directs in
line i.e. they do as their told , speak at functions or
lose their bonuses. When a Direct is told to speak at a
function, They do not say no.
If a direct with this wife have a fatal accident , then the
son or daughter have three months to become a direct to
continue receiving the bonuses. Then they fail to achieve
this then they lose the Amway business and the directs
sponsors add the down line to their business to receive
more bonuses. All this is in the sponsorship pack which
most distributors do not read. All the distributors are
legally requires to sell 80% of all the product that they
order and this rule is not enforced by Amway or I.B.S.
Business are not built on dreams, they are built on what
the public require at a completive price and good delivery
times.
In the USA. Amway is not allowed to operate in Wisconsin
as the distributers and the directs are all losing money.
Posted by: Stephen | January 11, 2009 5:25 PM
The thing that disgusts me most about Amway is the part of their pitch to their customers that takes a characteristic common to all products in a line (shaving cream, for example) and pretends that this characteristic belongs to the Amway product alone.
If you're familiar with Amway, maybe you remember the mantra "...but you only need to use a little bit"? Take that shaving cream. $5 a can, back in 1980 or so, same size as a can of Gillette Foamy or Old Spice or whatever. True enough, you only need a little bit and you still get a great shave, except that it smelled like an antiseptic and was very astringent.
Long story short: I ran out. Bought some Old Spice at the supermarket for half what the Amway cost, and out of habit used "only a little bit". You can probably guess what's coming. That can of Old Spice lasted just as long as the Amway can, cost half the money, smelled better and was gentler on the skin.
The same principle applies to all kinds of consumables, like toothpaste, dish detergent, laundry detergent, body wash, etc, no matter who makes them. Yet Amway -- dishonestly -- claims the property for its products alone.
Needless to say, I've never bought another Amway product again. Now, if only we could get the Gillettes and Crests of the world to stop pretending you need a fist-sized glob of foam to get a proper shave, or a long thick line of toothpaste on your brush to get your teeth properly cleaned... but that's for another post.
Posted by: North of 49 | January 11, 2009 11:01 PM
Why exactly is this legal?
Also, on a more general note, what's the deal with the rebranding?
" The company will use a transitional name, Amway Global, before reverting in about a year to Amway."
What the hell? What benefit is there to having a "transitional name" that's essentially the same as the long term name? It's just an extra expense - new marketing materials etc.
Posted by: Ginger Yellow | January 12, 2009 8:17 AM
Bartholomew: IIRC, I read bits of the same book. I remember it going to suspicious lengths to show that Amway was not, in the legal sense of the term, a "pyramid scheme," even though everyone knew that's what is was, and still is.
I remember asking an Amway booster what, exactly, we were supposed to be selling to generate all this revenue; and he/she dodged the question altogether by saying something like "We're not about selling products, that's not where the real money is, we're about building a network and getting other people to sell products." Products which he/she went on to completely fail to describe in anything remotely resembling detail.
Posted by: Raging Bee | January 12, 2009 11:33 AM
When I lived in Arizona in the early '90's I had three different former co-workers try to recruit me into The Business. The first was a woman I had worked with briefly who coyly asked me to come over to her house for an "opportunity". When I got there she had all the charts and catalogs laid out, and her husband was sitting there with her. An hour later, after saying I would think about it, I left very disappointed.
About 6 months later, another coworker, who I knew had been fired for stealing from the company, asked me to join him and his wife for lunch. Never said anything about "opportunity" or "business", so I said sure. Another hour of my life I'll never get back. I found out later he had stolen airline tickets (we worked for United) by forging award certificate numbers in his and his wife's passenger records (we were authorized to do this, not for ourselves of course, but for stranded passengers, as compensation, etc.). They did this because they wanted to get to an Amway presentation in Sacramento and couldn't afford to go (legally). The airline found out when they were coming home and stranded them in Denver by cancelling their reservations home.
Finally another friend casually asked me as we were sitting at the pool one afternoon whether I was interested in "controlling my own destiny". I knew enough by then to say I was not, and was willing to let others do it for me. I never saw any of them again. I did begin to wonder what it was about me that made people think I was such a likely sap.
One last note. My cousin and his wife did it for a long time, even though he was a doctor and made pretty good coin. I was visiting their house one summer and saw a stack of checks made out to the wife for tapes, books, etc. Now her name is also Chris, and since she married my cousin her last name is the same as mine, so the checks were all made out to me, essentially. There was about $3500 worth. I briefly toyed with the idea of cashing them, but the feeling passed.
Posted by: chris | January 12, 2009 12:22 PM
Ginger Yellow, there are a few reasons I can think of. “Amway” has a lot of recognition, but not such a great reputation. By adding “Global” they are probably trying to give the impression that they are large, stable, legitimate and successful. It says, “We’re Amway, but all grown up.” They want to capitalize on the Amway recognition factor while differentiating themselves enough to get people to take another look. Plus there’s the buzz factor whenever there’s a change.
Over the next year they’ll work to translate that buzz into positive momentum. But Amway Global doesn't have the mindshare that just Amyway does. In some ways people just won't stand for the longer name. So, a year from now, they’ll change the name again, back to the original short form. This will generate a new burst of buzz, realign the company with the public’s image (hopefully more positive than it is now), and allow them to fully capitalize on the recognition factor.
As far as the “waste” of money, that depends entirely on how well “Global” invigorates the brand. Plus, the best way to get your Marketing budget slashed is to save money. Sometimes Marketers spend a lot of money just so they can spend a lot of money again next year, when it really counts. The joy of corporate politics I’m afraid.
Posted by: Abby Normal | January 12, 2009 1:00 PM
i have been selling amway products for 25 years.
what i notice on this article and in the response is the
far left sky is falling attitude.
eric- merchants of deception- is a fraud.
i personally told him in numerous e-mails that i would love to tell my story which is quite compelling about the posotive effects and benefits of the amway business by my own personal experiance over 25 years.
i also told him i would debate him anywhere or appear in any court he desired.
no response.
pure and simple he is a nut job.
he is not truthful or rational.
my experience far surpasses his and i will testify any place and any time and personally make my case on facts.
amway is a great company with great products and it is a great business.
for those saying you cant make money selling products.
i have 25 years of proof.
amway has 50 years and 7 billion a year in product sales.
what more do you need to prove something is viable?
Posted by: justin | January 17, 2009 10:19 AM
justin asked:
No one argues that Amway isn't a viable operation for its investors; we are questioning whether its substituting contractors for sales people is a good deal for the contractors. The anecdotal evidence provided in this thread argues that the vast majority do not make the sort of income a contractor would want given the time and expenses by said contractor. That reality is coupled to the fact that the company targets and ultimately attracts people most susceptible to the use of rhetorical and logical fallacies (socially conservative Christians) to blame the contractor's inability to earn a good income on the contractor in hopes they will continue to stay active in this pyramid scheme.
Since you claim to be an Amway distributor/sales person, reporting your net taxable income and the amount of taxes you paid for the past several years due to the operational results of your business as well as the amount of time expended per year would be a start. Telling us at what level you were and providing statistically significant financial results for the population of contractors relative to the time they invested would be even an even better result. The fact this is not reported even though other legitimate ethical entities that also use contracted sales people argues that Amway is a scam.
I'm strongly inclined to continue to suspect that the vast majority of contractors are earning sub-minimum wages after they've accounted for their investment, expenses, and time; you've stated absolutely nothing in your post that would rebut such a notion.
Posted by: Michael Heath | January 17, 2009 11:31 AM
since facts are desired to make a legitimate point, let me make a note that not one person here on this forum has offered one fact.
it has all been emotion and clueless drivel.
since facts are important let me state some irrifutable facts.
80 percent of all businesses fail within the first 5 years in the usa. amway sales people are no different.
i think insurance and real estate people may have a higher failure rate due to the nature of the products.
amway is easy to join and small ticket items like soap,vitamins and energy drinks etc are small dollar items and are easier to sell than homes or insurance policies.
amway readily states that the average active distributor
makes 140 dollars a month gross.1,680 dollars a year.
the proof of the system is reflected in 3 million people who renew their memberships every year because they like the benefits of being involved with amway.
those 3 million people sell and consume 7 billion dollars worth of products every year.
that is 2,334 dollars a year per person.
approximately 66 percent of all sales people are considered active. meaning they made at least one sale a month.
regardless of what someone thinks who doesnt like amway, many people do like it and appreciate the opportunity to be able to sell things to make some extra cash when desired.
i dont like avon products or mary kay but that doesnt mean they are not legitimate sales opportunities.
when i was growing up our nieghbor stopped by once a month with her avon book and my mom bought things from her every now and then.
she didnt criticise rose for selling avon or ask her what her tax returns were.
obviously these types of sales opportunities work for some people because avon is bigger than amway and they work on commision sales also.
people who spout averages and look for failures to compare themselves too are usually not free enterprisers.
there are plenty of rich people in amway and there are a lot of rich people in other mlm companies as well.
i still say the ave amway sales person makes more than the ave real estate sales person and lasts longer doing it.
real estate however is still a good business.
so in amway if you have the fortitude to go find 25 customers and sell them 50 dollars worth of merchandise
you sold 1,250 dollars worth and you make 35% = 438 dollars.
thats over 5 thousand dollars a year.with virtually no expense for overhead.
i am amazed that that is horribly offensive.
i will stack that fact of life against most jobs and the people who have been losing them.
hows that working out? should we bad mouth the company that just went out of business. how legitimate are they?
you see my point? why do unhappy whiners try to get people like me to become an unhappy whiner?
i like amway-it works for me - i am happy with the money i make in relation to my effort and 3 million people agree with me because they renewed thier membership.
also in this latest recession i am not worried amway is going to close their doors and force me to find work else where.
in closing- what business - sales opportunity- are you recomending people like me should get involved in?
what are the success ratios and percentages of people who are very succesful?
can i start with 100 dollars? is it easy to sell?
will they train me?
are you willing to come and spend time personally helping me learn it? for free? even if i am scared to death.
thats what they did for me in amway 25 years ago-no charge.
i want peoples advice, and your personal one on one time - no charge- help me with something better than amway.
if you think i need help getting into something better, then
please show me your plan and help me achieve.
if you cant or wont then you quite simply are a whiner and are not worthy of peoples attention.
give me facts-opportunities- and some direction.
please help me move up in life.
by the way - i will need to see your tax returns.
Posted by: justin | January 17, 2009 7:42 PM
Justin - thanks for making my argument given the paltry size of the average gross income per month. For those that don't know what gross income is, it is the equivalent of what revenue is to a corporation. It's sales prior to cash and non-cash expenses being deducted, e.g., cost of sales (inventory) and operating expenses like travel, subscriptions, education, income and withholding taxes, along with non-cash expenses like depreciating an office and such if you make enough money to itemize your tax returns (where those depreciation expenses may provide a tax liability benefit if their Amway business is a sideline which it appears to be for the vast majority of the people who engage in it yet their household makes an ample amount of money elsewhere).
I am amazed it's that little. Your 3 million annual renewal rate argument is called an argument from popularity, it's a rhetorical fallacy. As P.T. Barnum stated, there's a, well you know. So such a renewal rate doesn't tell us much given the nature of the rhetoric used by Amway on a certain target audience whose proven to be very susceptible to such rhetoric (hell, this target audience is still convinced Bush was a great president). See the scientology post today which makes the same point: http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2009/01/remember_that_chicago_dentist.php (1st comment and mine following)
$140/month in gross income, prior to expenses being taken out, like travel, education, and product, and most importantly, a person's time. What is the net income after expenses? I'm guessing if they're suckers for the training material and out-of-town seminars it's a negative number, i.e., I wouldn't be surprised if thousands of these people are spending more with Amway than they are taking in, even prior to expenses, if they take the education and out-of-town seminars. Once we know the net income figures and the average number of hours to achieve that gross income figure, I think we can easily predict the amount of effort is at or probably under the minimum wage, which was and remains my point.
Justin - think like an economist. Though you didn't provide all the requested data, I'll make some rough estimates to make a point. Even if I'm off on product, travel, and time, and assuming the person is prudent enough not to the do the out-of-town seminars, the numbers you presented are so small I can't be off by much. The time the average Amway salesperson spends selling $140 of Amway product puts into their efforts, and their net, should be compared to the opportunity cost of their efforts if they did something else to make money. For example, if it costs them $70/mo. for travel and product, they're netting $70/mo. pre-tax, pre-labor expense. Assuming 10 hours per month to manage clients and their bookkeeping works out to $7/hr. prior to taxes! There are much more lucrative opportunities out there than $7/hr., even if I'm under by half.
Contrary to your assertion, there were facts presented by other posters, their personal experience with Amway and its contractors are facts. Not enough facts to understand the costs and benefits, but facts based on their approach that would given any person with developed critical thinking skills reason for pause.
I'm stunned someone would make an argument for $140/mo. gross. I wouldn't consider such a venture unless the gross sales prior to expenses was in the tens of thousands of dollars per month state given alternative opportunities. I had no idea it was that little. Modest alternatives that pay better in the same industry would be to work part-time as a merchandiser taking care of inventory at displays at big food chain stores, like Wal-Mart, e.g., for Nabisco for example.
By the way, given how income distribution works from a statistical perspective, there is a reason Amway is using "average" gross income rather than "median" gross income, far more than half of its sales people are making less than $140/mo. given the nature of such a distribution curve. If you don't understand the difference between average and median and when to use each, I'd highly advise gaining that knowledge. I assume you don't know the difference given you used the average figure without some explanation admitting the weakness of framing your point that way. For example, housing prices are measured using the median rather than average price, if they weren't, people would believe the average house (in terms of its characteristics) was worth way more in the market in terms of price than it really is since the average price is skewed upward by a relatively few number of very expensive homes. Same is true for most income distribution sales per person results. I suggest understanding that, you'll discover Amway is suckering way more people for way less than what they represent, which while technically accurate, is not representative of the point being made.
Posted by: Michael Heath | January 18, 2009 11:20 AM
the rebuttal to my response proves my point.
your lengthy rambling letter stated nothing.
it sounded like a polotician.
my eyes glazed over 2 lines into it.
my case in point- find me another sales group as successful as amway.
3 million renewing happy members and 7 billion a year in sales.
those facts cannot be argued against.
my 25 years experience far exceeds any outsider who never got 10 customers.
my question to all the so called "i have experience" with amway people is this- did you sign up? did you get 25 customers?
did you?
my further point which your lengthy over intelligent response failed to mention.
show me your bigger than life better than amway sales opportunity. then show me their averages.
then sign me up for 100 dollars and help me be successful.
no charge for your time and expertise.
i am still waiting for someone to show me an opportunity with better numbers.
i am ready to get started. get me the facts.
criticism without a better opportunity is cowardly.
also your lame - get a part time job rings pretty hollow to the people who want to start their own business.
it also rings pretty hollow for the person who just got fired or laid off because his company went out of business.
also - like i said, i am happy with my income from sales made.
i dont pay attention to stupid averages.
meanwhile- i am still waiting for a response to my - show me what business opportunity you are excited about and helping people succeed in.
if amway is so bad - help me get into another sales opportunity that is better.
show me your staggering success figures.
give me something to better myself.
give me your averages.
let me see your super successful sales numbers.
whats your product line?
calling me a sucker for 25 years running is a cheap shot.
show me something better and help me build it.
i am tired of whiners and criticisers and negative know it alls who have far less experience than i do.
if you cant show me something better to sincerely help me then it makes my point.
you dont know a business from a hole in your back yard.
show me the money!
25 years waiting- are you the one that actually knows about something better and will help me?
i am very sceptical. i dont think you really know anything.
i dont think you have ever helped anyone start a sales business or made them successful.
you probably have a job.
you probably never had the guts to start your own company.
you probably dont like sales.
smart enough to find fault and too chicken to ever do anything that requires risk or potential failure.
show me your better than amway sales gig.
this should be interesting.
brainless fools who dont own their own business who are experts on what a business should be. brilliant!
sitting in their underwear blogging about horrible soap sales people and the saps who dare to ask for the sale.
everybody has used the forum to show me how stupid i am.
okay smart people- show me something better.
odds in vegas are real good no one has a clue.
Posted by: justin | January 18, 2009 11:28 PM
justin said:
"you probably have a job.
you probably never had the guts to start your own company.
you probably dont like sales."
I've started a small company, made more money than your "stupid averages" figures, and decided to get a job that paid much more. What is wrong with that? Nothing--it was my choice. Justin if you are happy selling Amway then go for it, but understand that it has not turned out to be a good opportunity for the vast majority of those who've sat thru the pitch (I've sat thru 3), nor for those who paid the initial fees. I've known many, including some who worked very hard at it, and none of them stayed. It just did not pay.
By the way, as I analyzed the Amway opportunity, I just added up the number of middle men getting paid a percentage for each purchase of product. NO WAY it can compete with the ultra efficient production/delivery/point-of-sale methods used by big box retailers. Simply put, the numbers don't add up. Amway touts direct selling, then puts an entire pyramid structure between production and you as the bottom seller. Worse, each person taking a cut along the way has to get into the delivery process without having anything like an efficient delivery mechanism.
But of course, just dismiss me as "brainless fools who dont own their own business who are experts on what a business should be. brilliant!"
I'll take the brilliant part anyway :)
Posted by: Rich | January 19, 2009 12:54 AM
rich said-
i tried running a business and failed.
i got a job.
i have nothing to offer you.
real nice rich. you have nothing to show me except that you got a job.
you did not do any research on amway purchasing.
no-one pays a mark-up.
everybody pays the same for the products.
everyone buys directly from amway and pays the same price.
and amway is competing with big box stores and doing quite well at it.-7 billion a year quite well.
i will repeat- i will stack real estate sales and insurance
averages against amway any day.
i think its all good- no one thing is cut out for everybody.
not everyone makes a success. in jobs or business.
i for one have been fired or laid off 10 different times.
the last job i had went out of business and the seven years i had invested there disapeared. i lost my job.
that was 11 years ago. i havent had an hrly job since.
check these points and fact check me.
amway ships directly to every person who orders.
retail customers can even order direct from amway.
like i said-you dont know what youre talking about.
i have 25 years of actual experience.
there are no middle men.
there are no so called pyramid schemes in between.
i see why you didnt make a success in your business.
i have never criticised anyone for having a job.
i question people who cant succeed in business giving people business advice or spouting opinions as if they are some kind of expert or authority on business.
i want everyone to be happy doing what they do for a living.
as we all know none of it is a picnic.
however- i get irritated when so called journalists write articles without clue one about what they are talking about.
then people get on these blog things and say things like - i sat through 3 sales pitches and now i am an expert on amway.
then they state-"i analyzed it" and make stupid statements like "after you pay all the middlemen"
there are no middle men. everyone buys from amway for the same price.
my use of the word brilliant was obviously sarcastic.
as i stated before- show me a better sales opportunity-
help me get started for 100 dollars- help me get my first 10 customers and mentor me for as long as i want or need for free.
for all the critics with large opinions-
show me something better. please.
i stand by my odds in vegas. i bet no one has a clue.
Posted by: justin | January 19, 2009 1:44 AM
Justin:
"amway ships directly to every person who orders.
retail customers can even order direct from amway.
like i said-you dont know what youre talking about.
i have 25 years of actual experience.
there are no middle men."
Wow I never realized this! And here I thought if I got into the Amway business I'd make money from it, maybe become a diamond or a ruby such and such... But no, justin tells it like it is, NOONE makes any money from it:
"like i said-you dont know what youre talking about.
i have 25 years of actual experience.
there are no middle men.
there are no so called pyramid schemes in between."
Just how do all your up-line make all those promised dollars justin? How do you make money once you sponsor dozens of people, drawing your little circles with other lines below... There are no middlemen...
Posted by: Rich | January 19, 2009 1:59 AM
rich-
i thought you analyzed the business.
everyone buys directly from amway for the same price.
amway keeps track of total sales volume of any customers who order products and anyone you have in your sales force.
everyone has a id # you have to use when you order.
this tracks volume and everyone is rewarded according to the volume generated by their personal sales and their sales force.
monthly bonuses are then paid on performance.
it is a great system.
if you dont sell anything you make nothing.
if you move products- you make money.
no one gets a cut from you and everyone gets the same wholesale price no matter what so called level you may be at.
if you like sales you could do real well.
as i have said before- most people just dont understand how business works and get offended because they are confused or someone gets too forceful in trying to get them involved in selling when they really are not that interested.
being a smart alec and proving your ignorance doesnt do anyone any good.
i am still waiting for someone to help me with a better business plan with a better success ratio.
the odds in vegas are looking better.
i still dont think anybody has a clue.
Posted by: justin | January 19, 2009 3:02 PM
Justin,
One more try, how does this work:
"no one gets a cut from you and everyone gets the same wholesale price no matter what so called level you may be at."
When all levels get paid? It has to come out of that wholesale price. Which makes everyone a middleman.
Granted it has been a few years since I sat thru the whole business plan. Maybe Amway really is not multilevel any more. Maybe it is only you selling and no one else gets paid besides you and Amway corporate. Is this possible? It is a COMPLETE change from how they've done business for decades if that is true, and there is no hope of making it "big" like all MLM's promise.
Sorry if I got smart alecy. When you called my business a failure, it set me off a bit. I put myself thru college and employed several people, which I do not call a failure. And I made much more per hour than the vast majority of Amway distributors doing it.
Posted by: Rich | January 19, 2009 3:50 PM
apology accepted.
most people fail to continue in business for various reasons.
not all of it has to do with profit.
businesses take a certain type of person.
i was forced to succeed in my own business as i couldnt seem to be able to hold a job.
some of it my fault-some just the nature of the beast.
amway pays the bonuses directly according to the volume of each individual.
of course it comes from the wholesale price.
that is called bonuses or in other companies profit sharing.
auto manufacturers give kick backs and other incentives according to a dealerships volume.
sometimes you see special incentives at retailers-end of month sales- year end close outs etc.
they are pushing for volume.
if they hit targets the wholesalers or manufacturers in turn give bonuses.
in contracting- lumber suppliers often give discounts for certain volumes.
they in turn get discounts due to volume from the mill.
amway operates its bonus structure that way.
the higher the volume the greater the bonus.
they also give year end bonuses for consistent month to month volume throughout the year.
of course you as the sales person are the middle man.
what you infered earlier was there were many middlemen.
there is one. that is each amway distributor.
just like your local store is a middle man.
stores usually purchase from a wholesaler and very rarely buy direct from the manufacture.
i am not certain but i think companies like walmart and costco buy direct from manufacturers.
however-not even they can always buy direct.
in many cases they buy from a sales rep or wholesaler.
i have a friend who sells sugar for a large sugar company who operates this way.
he is a salaried and commision sales person who sells sugar to as many accounts as he can get.
he makes volume bonuses according to his ability and luck.
success in business is a lot of hard work but i think we all recognise that luck plays some small part.
i have been lucky with some nice large volume sales and i didnt see it coming or even plan it out.
it just happened because i was there.
the great thing about amway is that really anyone can easily get involved and try their hand at selling.
i was scared to death when i tried to sell at first and even cried in private because i was so frustrated and afraid to talk to people.
i love amway because the system is fair and they gave me a chance.
i saw people sign up and they thought they were gods gift to the world and they didnt last very long.
i have seen some unlikely success stories in this business.
i have learned over the years to have a healthy respect for hard working people no matter what they do for a living.
what i dont like is people who dont respect me for the hard work i do.
it is the reason i have tried to respond to the false accusations from people who dont realise what they are saying.
amway is very easy to sign up- so averages start to mean very little.
now if it was a franchise that charged 100 thousand , as most of them do- now then i would freak out if the averages showed 140 dollars a month gross.
i once got excited about several franchises and enthusiastically checked them out.
you had to basically be rich to get started.
so while i still think they are great opportunities it didnt make sense to me if i was that rich to start another business.
i love the fairness of amway- you can start where you are and nobody discludes anyone.
in 25 years i have had very few people try to help me get ahead with another opportunity.
i have never had anyone show me something better than the amway system.
i also have a friend who has made a living selling shaklee products.
he has been making a very good living in shaklee for probably 40 years.
he has never said a bad word about amway.
i have never said a bad word about shaklee.
so for all the nasty things said about amway and accusations
that its some kind of scam or cult or bad business venture.
i am waiting for someone to help me with something better.
and for rich- you sound like a reasonable and nice person.
come sell amway! just kidding.
Posted by: justin | January 19, 2009 5:57 PM
Firstly, you confuse religion with spirituality ... the most fervent opponents of Jesus, in his day, were the religious zealots who felt they had "God in their pockets" ... Don't follow the cool atheists with their pseudo-science humanism ... Follow your heart ...
1) Love God above all things.
2) Love your neighbor as yourself.
These are the greatest of the commandments. Know the truth. Know God first and all else will follow.
Secondly, Multi-level marketing is a business model, not a religion, or even a marketing plan.
Some do it well, most do it poorly.
The truth is out there ... for those that seek it ...
www.TheGreatLiesOfNetworkMarketing.com
Seek and you will find.
Posted by: Joe Terry | January 21, 2009 1:38 PM
where in the world would you come up with religion and spirituality in a business discussion?
ARE YOU NUTS?
joe terry picked it up and ate it.
he did? with tennis shoes untied. running with scissors?
and slipped on spaghetti sauce while talking on his cell phone chewing gum. it happens all the time with dog trainers who cant seem to mind their own manners in a crowded room filled with all kinds of cotton candy and the sick twisted people who steal that stuff they call karma.
while running naked as a jay bird in a lincoln continental made for two.
its a beautiful thing.
yeah man- the truth will set your breeze if you let it.
i wouldnt smoke that unless it was on fire and i hope to shout they have a sprinkler system we can run through on a hot day.
with ice cubes to chew through a straw. no kidding dude,i told you purple but you showed up in flip flops.
seek and you will find -
peace out joe- and may tom cruise be with you.
you deserve each other and i think its beautiful!
Posted by: justin | January 21, 2009 9:17 PM
I hear lot of Dogs barging in this page. I am not a Amway Business owner, but I am able to see lot of possitive difference in them after starting thier Amway business.
This page stinks.. !!
Posted by: Wiinner's Friend | June 19, 2009 9:01 PM
I hear lot of Dogs barging in this page.
I am not a Amway Business owner, but I know a good friend of mine building this business. I am able to see lot of possitive difference in them after starting thier Amway business. He could not live the lifestyle that he is living if not for Amway.
I did not join him in the business. Neither I join with you DOGS Criticizing.. What else you dogs have to offer..
This page stinks.. !!
Posted by: Wiinner's Friend | June 19, 2009 9:04 PM