Ed Brayton is a journalist, commentator and speaker. He is the co-founder and president of 
The Worldnutdaily has a breathless article about a prom held for gay youth in Boston by the Boston Alliance of Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender Youth, or BAGLY. The event was for people 22 and under and the anti-gay group MassResistance sent in a 20 year old college student to infiltrate the event and get pictures. And he was horrified - horrified - to find out that kids at a gay prom do the same kinds of things kids at a straight prom do.
But being anti-gay nuts, they tell this story with all the requisite hysteria and even call it the "prom from sexual hell." Some of this stuff is really funny:
"I remained in the building for an hour and a half and found the events inside disturbing, depraved and outright criminal," Max reported. "The line included kids wearing the rainbow regalia of the gay movement, teenage boys wearing dresses and high heels, hugging their 'boyfriends,' extremely young looking girls, not much older than 14 or 15, with 'Out and Proud' inscribed in rainbow letters on the front of their T-shirts."
Imagine that. A group that specifically advocates for the rights of gays, lesbians and the transgendered kids has - gasp - gays, lesbians and transgendered kids in it that wear t-shirts and rainbows. How disturbing, depraved and outright criminal.
Max continued, "On the flower pots and stairs leading up to the subway entrance, I saw dozens of kids aged 12-17 smoking cigarettes and making out with each other."
Yeah, that would never happen at a straight prom. No straight kids would ever smoke cigarettes, only those evil gay kids do that. And worse yet, some kids were making out:
He entered City Hall as two floors shook with earsplitting music and began taking numerous photographs of the event. Max spotted teen homosexual couples, with hair painted rainbow colors, making out in almost every corner of the room.
Any of my straight readers make out at the prom? I didn't think so. This is the kind of debauchery only gays and lesbians would engage in at prom (that's my story, mom, and I'm sticking to it).
But here comes the real shock and horror:
He said three middle-aged lesbians with military haircuts shouted from megaphones at the more than 300 youth attendees in line for the event. They barked: "If we find you bringing alcohol, you're going home!"; "Don't have sex on the dance floor!" and "Are you ready to party?"
Now ordinarily you would think that MassResistance would be pleased that there was adult supervision there enforcing rules against bringing alcohol or having sex at the prom, but you obviously missed the crucial part of the sentence: these were middle-aged lesbians. And they were butch too.
This whole story is designed for one purpose: To make insulated suburbanites go "ewwwwww." Which, when you think about it, is pretty much the whole basis for the anti-gay movement.
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Comments
Actually, I'm told there wasn't any making out at my school prom (I didn't attend, so this is secondhand). That's to be expected of a private Christian school, of course.
On the other hand, I recall a couple of my friends bragging about sneaking out of the prom to have sex with their girlfriends.
Posted by: schism | June 16, 2009 9:33 AM
People displaying support for gay rights at an event put on by a gay rights group. Scandalous.
Posted by: JStein | June 16, 2009 9:34 AM
Next thing you know they'll want to be marrying and raising a family. Damn meddling teens.
Posted by: kehrsam | June 16, 2009 9:38 AM
Spot on, Ed, spot on. Then again, you could generalize this line of argument to pretty much every social conservative "movement".
Posted by: Shygetz | June 16, 2009 9:39 AM
So that's what it's like at a prom? I wouldn't know, having been a geek prior to it becoming socially acceptable. Pretty much immediately prior. *sigh*
I'm also glad to see some kids that age getting a chance to act in an environment where they're accepted for who they are. They still likely face a lot of bigotry every day, but it's better than fifteen years ago, when I was in school. The one guy that everyone "knew" was closeted caught daily hell. Once he hit college, he never looked back, and was a hell of a lot happier.
Posted by: Ranson | June 16, 2009 9:45 AM
Dammit! One of the heirs-to-be of Walmart and I drank a Bunch of Everclear at the Bentonville prom 45 years ago, and we didn't get sent home or nuthin'! I can't remember if "making out" had been invented by then, though, so I can't say whether any of that was going on amongst the people that had dates....
Posted by: Coragyps | June 16, 2009 9:47 AM
As I remember my high school times (graduated in '74) a prom really wasn't a necessity for actions greater than or equal to making out. things have changed, aparently.
Posted by: dean | June 16, 2009 9:52 AM
Funny, "ewwwwwww" is pretty much my reaction when I read about what goes on at Jesus camps. The only difference is that as long as the people at those camps actually want to be there I don't really care what goes on.
At my prom there were no measures taken to stop anyone from sneaking prohibited items into the building either. But then you could write a "shocking" report like this about any social gathering involving teens, if you're the kind of reporter who works for Worldnutdaily. I swear, at this point the fruit at WND hangs so low to the ground you could easily trip over it.
Posted by: Imrryr | June 16, 2009 9:55 AM
Damn, too old.
And not in Boston.
And not very social.
Is it wrong that I want to see the pictures so I can go "awwwww" instead?
Posted by: Bachalon | June 16, 2009 10:04 AM
Think how low the risk of unplanned pregnancy is at this prom compared to any other.
Posted by: Taz | June 16, 2009 10:04 AM
"BAGLY" - am I the only one who gets annoyed at these idiotic acronyms?
At least MN - we use real words like Project 515, OutFront, etc...
(and don't get me started on the argument between using LGBT versus GLBT)
Posted by: yoshi | June 16, 2009 10:09 AM
Yoshi - Completely agree.
BTW I prefer a BLT (made with TLC but hold the HBE, particularly after 'not' inhaling THC)
:) DJ
Posted by: DingoJack | June 16, 2009 10:18 AM
Gay and Lesbian prom? Great idea.
For me, the squick trigger are those creepy so-called purity balls that some fundie xtians like to promote.
Posted by: Anneliese | June 16, 2009 10:24 AM
On a related note, Disneyworld in Orlando is the unofficial host of Gay Days, not to mention numerous Christian youth events. I know several people who worked at the park at various times during all these events, and without exception they said they had far more problems with the Christian kids sneaking off to have sex in bathrooms, the skyride, etc. than they ever did with the gays.
Posted by: PattyP | June 16, 2009 10:27 AM
Heh..prom. I was a geek in high school*, so I only went because my BFF convinced me to go with her.
-Adam
*actually, that never really changed...I still am one.
Posted by: Adam | June 16, 2009 10:35 AM
I didn't make out at the prom. Oh, no. We snuck off to the cemetary next to the school to do that.
Posted by: Elf Sternberg | June 16, 2009 10:44 AM
mmmm middle-aged lesbians
Oh, wait, they were butch? Get 'em!
(Taz beat me to the point I wanted to make, dangit.)
Posted by: Squiddhartha | June 16, 2009 11:00 AM
Yes, this article is ridiculous.
But I have to address the wisdom of teenage transsexuals. Maybe they should wait until they are well into adulthood before mutilating their bodies.
Posted by: Oatwhore | June 16, 2009 11:56 AM
My prom was filled with so much tulle and taffeta you couldn't tell if someone were having sex on the dance floor.
Posted by: CyberLizard | June 16, 2009 11:59 AM
I wonder what WND would make of this old Slate article about an official school prom.
My best friend just chaperoned a gay prom in nearby Bethlehem, PA a couple weeks ago. A local church volunteered use of it's gym for the dance. From all accounts it was a fun and festive evening. There was the typical high school drama: hookups, blowups, breakups, and makeups. But really, nothing to distinguish it from a typical prom.
One thing I found interesting though, many who attended the gay prom had also attended their school prom, often with their boyfriend or girlfriend. There was minimal negative reaction. Some reported that they felt a little uncomfortable and there were occasional comments or dirty looks. But for the most part it was no big deal. It warms my heart when I think about how far we've come.
Posted by: Abby Normal | June 16, 2009 12:00 PM
Is there any point to a prom besides drinking and having sex? I mean, I guess you could dance, but why waste your time with that? I'm guessing that the person who wrote this never got to make out at his own prom, and he's just jealous.
Posted by: catgirl | June 16, 2009 12:06 PM
Oatwhore, being transsexual doesn't mean you have "mutilated" your body -- many (most?) transsexuals live as the opposite gender for years before undergoing reassignment surgery (if, indeed, they ever do that), and I would be surprised if any surgeon would do a reassignment on a minor.
Posted by: Squiddhartha | June 16, 2009 12:07 PM
So this idiot taking the pictures of teenagers engaged in various forms of evil sin...If he or she happened to take a picture of kids making out and one or both of the kids are underage, couldn't he/she be prosecuted for child pornography?
Aren't the excessively vague laws generally worded along the lines of "Images or depictions of children engaged in sexually explicit conduct"?
That'd be just about the most awesome outcome ever.
Posted by: JThompson | June 16, 2009 12:17 PM
They found it that "hot," huh?
Why doesn't that surprise me?
Posted by: Azkyroth | June 16, 2009 12:19 PM
Well, okay, I'll buy this one... I've got enough gay friends to have been to a few of the gay bars in town, and so far two out of four have pretty much blown my eardrums out...
So yeah, if the Religious Right wants to attack the gay community for having too much of an affinity for loud dance music, I can respect that. :p
Posted by: anonymous | June 16, 2009 12:20 PM
The "infiltrate" thing is really weird.
C'mon, Max, just put on your party dress and go!
Posted by: kamaka | June 16, 2009 12:31 PM
Oatwhore, thank you for that small nugget of bigotry to add to the mountain that trans teens will face in their lifetimes. :P
Posted by: Xayide | June 16, 2009 12:38 PM
I don't think "mutilating" is the nicest word, but Oatwhore has a point. Transsexualism is not something you can just experiment with like homosexuality. There are deeply invasive surgeries, about a million chances of complications, and most transsexuals have shorter life expectancies from all the hormones they have to take.
With that in mind, the minimum age for beginning irreversible procedures is 18, or 17 under special circumstances. In other words, anybody who is old enough for a sex change operation is old enough to go to Iraq. And two years of counseling are required to be absolutely certain that you're not making a mistake. So I can assure you, Oatwhore, that your concerns have been taken into consideration.
Posted by: Brandon | June 16, 2009 12:47 PM
Very nice high road reply Brandon.
Posted by: Abby Normal | June 16, 2009 12:53 PM
Hmmmm. Undercover? So did Max take a date to fit in? Did they make out in a corner so their cover wasn't blown? Inquiring minds want to know!
Posted by: William | June 16, 2009 12:54 PM
Has anyone questioned his motives for taking photographs of teens ("some as young as 14 or 15") engaging in promiscuous behavior?
Posted by: Matthew | June 16, 2009 1:47 PM
RAINBOWS!?!?!?!? OUTRAGE!!111!!1!!ELEBENTY!11!@11!!1
Posted by: Comrade PhysioProf | June 16, 2009 1:52 PM
Agreed, nice comment, Brandon. I would initially prefer to think that rather than being bigoted, Oatwhore may simply have been unfamiliar with trans procedure regarding reassignment surgery, which puts him/her squarely in the overwhelming majority of people in the world. Brandon's thoughtful reply may be much more enlightening if that is the case.
I'm not a regular reader of this blog, but I will definitely be back to read more (cue ominous music.)
Posted by: flea | June 16, 2009 1:56 PM
"What? How dare they have adult supervision? That goes against our conservative values!"
...
This is too stupid to not be satire. Oh wait, WorldNutDaily. Nevermind.
Posted by: Kobra | June 16, 2009 2:00 PM
Uh oh, PZ's linked to this post. I thought we weren't supposed to cross the streams?
Posted by: Taz | June 16, 2009 2:00 PM
Taz: Think how low the risk of unplanned pregnancy is at this prom compared to any other.
And the subsequent abortions!! The anti-everything crowd should be supportive of gay proms! They just don't think very far ahead.
Posted by: stinger | June 16, 2009 2:07 PM
Posted by: marilove | June 16, 2009 2:09 PM
Vile and disgusting! How can such immoral displays of depravity be allowed in decent society?
(I am, of course, talking about WND.)
Posted by: Naked Bunny with a Whip | June 16, 2009 2:14 PM
I didn't make out with anyone at my senior prom. I mention this more for self-pity than anything else. Man, that night sucked.
Posted by: Diggy K | June 16, 2009 2:16 PM
"This whole story is designed for one purpose: To make insulated suburbanites go 'ewwwwww.'"
They NEARLY got it right. I made me go "Awwww!"
Posted by: Amy | June 16, 2009 2:18 PM
Did anyone else find the author's final comment to be ironic?
Right, because the fundies don't have an obsession with indoctrinating kids.Posted by: H.H. | June 16, 2009 2:18 PM
Taz, crossing the streams if fine if you are writing in the snow.
Posted by: GaryB | June 16, 2009 2:19 PM
A friend of mine works with a group that works with BAGLY and likes to send me Mass Resistance "reports" on various GLBT events in Massachusetts.
They are all equally hilarious in their finger-pointing stupidity.
My favorite bit of coverage was a series of chest shots of shirtless FTMs which was supposed to point out the omg!depravity of transexuals but which really just made the photographer look like he had a fetish for men with surgical scars on their chests.
Posted by: Amanda | June 16, 2009 2:19 PM
damndamndamn.
"I made me go 'Awwww!'" should be "It made me go "Awwww!"
Sorry.
Posted by: Amy | June 16, 2009 2:20 PM
Not to mention the the hurdles of finding a doctor to do it, going through any mandatory psychological screening, preliminary hormone therapy, saving up enough money to pay for all of it, etc.
Posted by: Naked Bunny with a Whip | June 16, 2009 2:25 PM
FYI: Transexualism doesn't require hormones or surgery if you don't want them. There are people who choose to forgo medical intervention entirely and there are many who use hormones but don't have any surgery, or who don't use hormones but do have surgery, or who only want top or bottom surgery, or... it's an issue that's more than just what you've got for genitals or how much of what hormone you've got coursing through you.
It's not like it's a magic switch that requires hormones/surgery to become transsexual. You're trans without any of that, just like you're gay or straight or bi before you start making out with the gender(s) of your choice.
Posted by: Amanda | June 16, 2009 2:36 PM
Crap, I wish they would have one of those here.
It would be the first prom in Oklahoma without strollers and maternity formals.
Posted by: Prometheus | June 16, 2009 2:38 PM
What a great experience for those kids. Well done to them and to any other organizations willing to sponsor similar events.
Odd but it was very christian of them to extend the welcoming environment to this group. Sad that the Christians don't think so.
Posted by: MikeMa | June 16, 2009 2:40 PM
One of the men reportedly wore exceptionally tight pants...
Comic. Genius.
Posted by: JC | June 16, 2009 2:43 PM
Just think how much more freaked out the WNDnuts would be if informed that these BAGLY proms have been happening for over 25 years now.
Posted by: pluky | June 16, 2009 2:52 PM
Implied cause-and-effect fail.
Posted by: Naked Bunny with a Whip | June 16, 2009 2:57 PM
"Max spotted teen homosexual couples, with hair painted rainbow colors, making out in almost every corner of the room."
I assume that like most rooms it had four corners which would suggest that out of the 300 attendees only 3 couples were making out. Sounds like a boring prom to me.
Posted by: Tom | June 16, 2009 3:00 PM
I know the homophobic powers that be don't like analogies drawn from homosexual relationships to interracial relationships some seventy years ago - but well, there it is. I can only imagine (and with a similar degree of ironic humor) how an "infiltrator" might react to disturbing instances of whites actually touching blacks, not to mention how young the white girls looked.
Posted by: Ethos | June 16, 2009 3:07 PM
Doesn't anyone else find it hilarious that they take the "recruiter" t-shirts so seriously?
Posted by: kestrien | June 16, 2009 3:14 PM
Oatwhore, Brandon and others concerned about teen transsexuals:
Take a look at Lynn Conway's site for general information on transsexuals. [She is a former dean at U Mich Engineering, who earlier in life as a male was a pioneer in chip design at IBM]. Read the whole thing and you will be a lot more understanding.
And her piece on transitioning early in life. Contrary to what happens in this country, transgendered youth are fully transitioning early in their teens, and there are a few cases now where Sexual Rassignment Surgery has been performed on cases younger than 18 years. After undergoing numerous evaluations, it appears that early transitioning is better psychologically and sociologically.
Posted by: natural cynic | June 16, 2009 3:27 PM
Posted by: Taz | June 16, 2009 3:27 PM
I like making insulated suburbanites go "ewwwwww." It fills me with warm happies.
As I like to tell people: "Not being shocked" is not a human right.
Posted by: Kay Dekker | June 16, 2009 3:29 PM
Re treatment of transexuality: Gender identity appears to arise in a part of the brain that forms early in gestation. The result of repressing gender identity is often (or usually) drug abuse, alcohol abuse, lack of self esteem, depression, self mutilation and or suicide. I'd suggest that early surgical and hormonal intervention after a careful course of evaluation and assessment are a better way to go.
Posted by: Alexis | June 16, 2009 3:46 PM
Yeah coming from a heterosexual female....this is great. I wish I would have gone to that PROM. Mine was boring and awkward. The only thing to look forward to was getting drunk and having sex.
And Rainbows? Wow my dress was rainbow and I made my date wear a rainbow tie....does this mean we are gay?
Posted by: Anna | June 16, 2009 3:50 PM
It sounds exactly like my prom a week or two ago (I think it's the prom anyway- valedictory? Or is the prom the debs?), except there's no mention of anyone having been kicked out for arriving completely drunk, there seems to have been more drugs and less violence, and our middle-aged female military-haircut chaperones sound more butch.
They would have been shocked by the amount of pink shirts at ours- terrifying! Oh no, colours!
Posted by: simba | June 16, 2009 3:54 PM
Hmm, unfortunately it looks like the most relevant parts of Lynn Conway's page are nowhere near SFW. I am interested to read it. See, recognizing up front that many (most?) transexuals never do surgery or hormones, I have to admit I share some of Oatwhore's skepticism about whether actual gender reassignment is such a good idea. I am totally down with people expressing gender however they want regardless of physiology... but I don't know just how I feel about radical surgical alteration of physiology.
Right now, I kinda feel the same way about gender reassignment surgery as I do about penis enlargment surgery: Yeah, sure, it's totally fine to want a big penis, but uh... are you sure that surgery is such a good idea?
Anyway, like I say, I'll be interested to read Conway's website if I get a chance. I'm definitely open to having someone change my mind.
Posted by: James Sweet | June 16, 2009 4:04 PM
I really don't get people whose identities are so wrapped up in their gender self-image that they feel it's surgery-having-important to have a vagina even if it doesn't come with a functioning uterus or any of the other goodies. O.o
Posted by: Azkyroth | June 16, 2009 4:14 PM
Gosh, if you just re-arranged their acronym and included all the words, they could be T-BAGLY.
Posted by: Monado | June 16, 2009 4:14 PM
An imperfect solution is better than doing nothing while waiting for a perfect solution to come along. I think that applies to all problem domains, really.
Anyway, it's not like all women want to make babies.
Posted by: Naked Bunny with a Whip | June 16, 2009 4:25 PM
To Azkyroth:
When your body doesn't match up with your mind...Do you understand that?
Gender identity is prevalent everywhere in society. Cisgendered people wade in it everyday, although they don't believe that they are wrapped up in their gender self-image (they are). They don't have to think about it because there is no conflict between what's on the inside verses the outside. Cisgendered people are priveledged in this respect. Cisgendered people are allowed to act as they feel and as they look.
Having surgery for some is the only choice.
Posted by: Kelly | June 16, 2009 4:45 PM
Anybody else reminded of Scooby Doo?
"We're homophobic and we discriminate openly, and we'd get away with it all if it weren't for you meddling gays!"
Posted by: DemetriusOfPharos | June 16, 2009 4:47 PM
Hugging? Not hugging? Say it isn't so!
I have to find my smelling salts now. I feel one of my spells coming on...
Posted by: Greta Christina | June 16, 2009 4:50 PM
Imagine that you felt exactly the way you now feel about your self and your gender... but you had a vagina and breasts instead of a penis and a male chest. Or vice versa. Would that feel trivial to you?
Gender reassignment surgery is a big frakking deal. Not all trans people choose to have it... but the ones who do, do not do it lightly. It's easy to say that gender isn't a big deal for those of us for whom... well, for whom it's not a big deal, whose bodies mesh with our minds and selves. When that's not the case, it becomes very important indeed.
Posted by: Greta Christina | June 16, 2009 4:59 PM
Only in the abstract, at an intellectual level. I can't even imagine the internal experience of having a mind that's obviously matchable with a certain type of body.
Posted by: Azkyroth | June 16, 2009 5:02 PM
No. None of my clothes would fit.
Posted by: Azkyroth | June 16, 2009 5:04 PM
Amanda, natural cynic, and Alexis are spot-on in regards to young Transsexuals. It's different for everyone, not everyone goes through the same sort of treatments, and it does seem to be better to start younger than later.
And that's kind of offensive. Someone gets gender reassignment surgery because they want their body to match their entire identiy. It doesn't really have anything to do with sex.
Your identity is JUST as wrapped up in your gender self-imagine as anyone else, including Transsexuals. You just don't have any conflict with your gender or self-image in regards to your gender.
Besides which, last I checked, not all born-women have a “functioning uterus” or even want to have children.
Posted by: marilove | June 16, 2009 5:06 PM
What makes you so certain?
Posted by: Azkyroth | June 16, 2009 5:09 PM
Anneliese, I had never heard of "Purity Proms" until you mentioned them here. Now *I'm* going "Ewww..."
Posted by: KillerChihuahua | June 16, 2009 5:09 PM
Alexis: That's extremely interesting. What citations do you have for that?
I've thought for some time that if (as some neuropsychological research indicates) some aspects of gender identity and gendered behavior are hard-wired into our brains... then transgenderism, and the experience many trans people say they've had from a very early age of feeling like their selves are a different gender from their bodies, could be explained as a genetic variant, in which people have a brain more consistent with one gender and a body more consistent with the other. But I didn't know there was any research supporting that -- I just thought it was one of my harebrained ideas. If you have a citation, I'd love to see it.
Posted by: Greta Christina | June 16, 2009 5:11 PM
Azkyroth, I guess I should say, "it likely is." I'd say those who tend to be on the androgynous side might not be, but yes, for most people, their identity is pretty wrapped up in their gender. I am female, I know this, I feel this. I'm not always like other women (don't want children, don't want to get married), but my gender feels right, and I feel whole. Not everyone feels this way. They fee like they were literally born in the wrong body.
I am assuming right now you are male (just for the sake of this discussion, sorry if I am wrong). You are clearly comfortable with being male. What if you weren't? What if you felt like a female in every sense of the word, but had a penis?
Posted by: marilove | June 16, 2009 5:15 PM
Azkyroth, I'm more the opposite. I wish I could change back and forth. When I dream at night it's pretty much a coin flip which sex I'll be. It would be kind of nice if when I woke up each morning my body still matched. I seriously considered gender reassignment surgery for a long time. (No, not just because of my dreams, for anyone who isn't familiar with my earlier comments on this topic.) But I finally decided that whichever way I went I'd be dissatisfied half of the time, so why bother.
Through most of my 20's I could pass for either gender by my choice of cloths and a little effort. That's probably as comfortable as I've ever been. But eventually the day came when I realized I couldn't pull it off anymore. That lead to a depressive cycle it took me years to recover from.
These days I mostly happy with my body. (Though I'm a little upset that my pants keep shrinking.) Still, every once in a while I wonder, what would my life have been like if I'd made the switch?
Posted by: Abby Normal | June 16, 2009 5:17 PM
That is very interesting, Abby Normal! Thanks for sharing. This is kind of silly, but I've always wanted a detachable penis. Not to get too TMI, but as a bisexual woman, I sometimes wish I could switch sexes. But that's not really the same thing as being a transsexual, I don't think (my thing, not your thing, Abby).
Posted by: marilove | June 16, 2009 5:22 PM
Abby Normal - Did you ever read "The Left Hand of Darkness"?
Posted by: Taz | June 16, 2009 5:27 PM
Heh, anyone else notice the 'plastic bottle bong' caption on one of the photos? It looked like an ordinary water bottle to me...
Posted by: Arkady | June 16, 2009 5:36 PM
Greta Christina -
regarding neuropsychological research, I know there is some on Zoe Brain's blog . . . which I believe is A.E.Brain, but I wouldn't quote me. She had a citation for an article looking at the brain's body-map in transsexual persons.
We're also, and not to be too pendantic about this, conflating gender identity with sexed identity. Transgender largely refers to the broader collection of people who's performance doesn't quite match up to society's expectations of gender and sexed performance. Transsexual tends to refer more specifically to those who experience their sexed identity as other-than their bodily sex.
The problem with linking "gender" to brain or genetics is that we are unable to separate ourselves from a world which encodes us with gendered behaviors from the moment our sex is identified. Who's to say that the brain "differences" aren't caused by social construction? Given the strong investment our society has in maintaining strict separations between masculine/feminine, male/female, man/woman, it would make sense that over time persons identified as women would develop brain connections that differed from persons identified as men.
Posted by: Hypatia's Girl | June 16, 2009 5:36 PM
The short answer is that it's not about gender expression, it's about the person's internal map of their body. There are uber-girly transsexual women and macho transsexual men, but there are also butch transsexual women and girly-boy transsexual men. It's a dissonance with their bodies, not their societal gender roles.
I imagine it as being similar to a constant phantom limb syndrome (with the added side-effect of interfering with almost every aspect of societal life).
Posted by: Xayide | June 16, 2009 5:39 PM
@ marilove
Oh, I get that feeling sometimes as well! If I'm understanding you, you're right, that's a different feeling from what I was talking about. But it's an interesting one. To me that's more about wanting to be able to do something, or experience something, as opposed to an identity issue. That is, even if you had a detachable penis you'd think of yourself as a woman with a penis, as opposed to as a man. I think most everyone gets that to some degree or another.
For me, there have been times where I've walked past a mirror and been shocked, even to the point of tears, at the sight of myself. "Oh right, I'm male." It's very disconcerting. Of course there are other times, the majority in fact, I catch my reflection and there isn't the slighted thought to anything being off. [shrug]
Posted by: Abby Normal | June 16, 2009 5:40 PM
Wouldn't it be nice if there wasn't a need for a special GLBT prom? I mean that The Prom would include everyone regardless of orientation and everyone could go without fear of some bigoted douchebag engaging in threatening or other hostile behavior because he(she) thinks same sex couples are icky?
I'm all for the GLBT prom, I just wish it wasn't necessary.
Posted by: bybelknap, FCD | June 16, 2009 5:48 PM
...and the experience many trans people say they've had from a very early age of feeling like their selves are a different gender from their bodies, could be explained as a genetic variant, in which people have a brain more consistent with one gender and a body more consistent with the other. But I didn't know there was any research supporting that...
I'm not up on the rigorous research, but I've heard anecdotes from -- to take one example -- a woman who became a man, who said her breasts (when she had them) felt like "senseless lumps;" which leads me to conclude there was some sort of neurological disconnect, between a body that was female, and a brain and nervous system that didn't quite match the body, and, by the lack of sensory nerves in the breast area, didn't recognize that female part as part of the whole being. So yeah, there's at least anecdotal evidence that this sort of identity/image crisis comes from hardwiring.
Posted by: Raging Bee | June 16, 2009 5:49 PM
If you want to know about transgender kids but do not like reading thick tomes, head out to the library, check out Essential Dykes to Watch Out For, and read about Jonas/Janice. Heck, you should be reading DTWOF anyway :-). And The Left Hand of Darkness, of course.
Posted by: estraven | June 16, 2009 6:09 PM
Posted by: llewelly | June 16, 2009 6:38 PM
Along the lines of not feeling at one with the body, or not feeling "whole", there has been quite a bit of research done about people who feel that an arm or leg that is obviously attached to them is not theirs. Some of these people have only felt "right" when they had a leg, or in a couple of cases, both legs, or an arm, amputated. Then they felt right. Probably this is due to the brain's body map, and somehow, the arm or leg in question just never was wired in. A lot of research on this has been done on animals, also, showing that kittens blindfolded at the time eyes were to open never develop the brain areas where sight takes place. Blindfolds removed - they can't see.
I wonder if any research has been done connecting this type of body dismorphism to anorexia?
The brain is where the answers lie. We just can't figure it out yet.
Posted by: Diana | June 16, 2009 6:47 PM
Re: The body not matching up to the internal identity - this happens in plenty of other contexts, too, and can be really disconcerting. I have some visible facial scars from an incident a while back, and it took me a lot of time and several reconstructive surgeries to feel like my face was actually mine again, as opposed to an approximation. It is not that my identity is all wrapped up in my face, but that my brain (not the conscious part) expects a certain configuration of my body. When it doesn't get it, there's some dissonance.
I suspect that most people's brains have these hidden expectations, but it is only when they are not met that the issue becomes evident.
Posted by: Scarface | June 16, 2009 6:51 PM
@Diana - Oliver Sacks discusses some cases where people felt that their limbs were not theirs; one man even threw the "foreign" leg out of his bed upon waking one night and finding it there. Of course, he was attached to it, so he fell out of bed, too. Mightily confused.
Proprioception is weird.
Posted by: Scarface | June 16, 2009 6:55 PM
Ok, Max is a moron. Not much more to say there.
Azkyroth I'm just curious about your comment. Have you ever looked at communities like BME? It's a massive bodymod community that showcases some of the most extreme body modifications people do to themselves. The reason I bring this up is because as much as I see the reaction of "OMG Ewww" people have to some of the things done over on BME I never hear the types of comments you and the other person made about people not taking it seriously or not knowing what they're doing when the discussion is about bodymods and believe me sex changes are freaking subtle in comparison to things like the cat man.
Maybe it's an age thing, but I fail to see why tattooing, piercing, scraification and stretching are acceptable to some degree to almost everyone but people get the heebies about others going through sex changes.
Personally I fail to see why either are an issue to anyone but the people who are undergoing the changes.
Posted by: Miss Twist | June 16, 2009 7:26 PM
@Abby normal:
Thanks for sharing. It's the first time that I've seen someone express something akin to how I feel from time to time.
Posted by: Who Cares | June 16, 2009 7:52 PM
My working definition of homophobia for some time now has been "pretending that everything you've said doesn't apply equally well to straight people."
Posted by: Skemono | June 16, 2009 8:06 PM
As someone who has been chaperoning proms for the last twenty years, it is not what goes on DURING the prom the concerns me, but AFTER. Gay or straight, unprotected sex, drinking and driving, heavy drug use, is enough for me to hold my breath until Monday morning. The people in charge of these affairs need to do the same thing they do with straight proms. Put in place pre-prom programs that stress and teach safety.
Posted by: sillysighbean | June 16, 2009 8:39 PM
"Just think how much more freaked out the WNDnuts would be if informed that these BAGLY proms have been happening for over 25 years now."
Probably this was the first year they got the purse-matching-shoes concept right.
Posted by: wrpd | June 16, 2009 8:43 PM
Re: the discussion on early acquisition of gender identity.
One strong piece of evidence for the acquisition of gender identity prior to birth is cases such as the John/Joan case where an infant boy who had lost his penis in a circumcision accident was reassigned to female, and every effort was made to instill a female identity, but he still developed a male identity and transitioned back to male at 14. There've been many similar cases, as well as cases of intersexed infants being assigned to one sex or the other but growing up with the opposite gender identity, indicating that the doctors had essentially guessed wrong on which gender to assign them (which is why many intersexed adults oppose surgery on intersexed infants, arguing that any surgeries should wait until the individual in question is old enough to decide themself)
Posted by: Paper Hand | June 16, 2009 9:04 PM
You sure are reading a lot into the phrase "I don't get people who..."
Posted by: Azkyroth | June 16, 2009 9:10 PM
#80 - I've read of children born with both sex organs, or parts of both and I can't remember the technical term for that. What I do remember is that parents (and sometimes doctors) feel a need to "assign" a sex/gender during infancy.
Later, many of these children suffered (needlessly, IMHO) because their parents "guessed" wrong about the gender the child's brain was going to prefer.
Those observations point to a hard-wired gender identity.
Posted by: Donna B. | June 16, 2009 9:14 PM
Well, making out on your homeschooling prom would be all sorts of awkward, wouldn't it?
Posted by: norumaru | June 16, 2009 9:15 PM
@Who Cares
I'm so happy to hear you say that. Until now, when I've tried to explain it I've gotten curiosity, empathy and I've seen many blank stares. I've known people, mostly transsexuals, who identified with aspects. But, you're the first, "Me too." I'd love to hear more if your up for it. If you'd prefer a private exchange, you can email me at DearAbbyNormal (at) hotmail (dot) com.
@Taz
The Left Hand of Darkness been on my To Read List forever. But I'm just not into SciFi like I used to be. So it's been a slow moving list for that genera.
@marilove
Having just reread my last comment I realized it may have come across as dismissive. If so, I'm sorry. I didn't intended it that way.
Posted by: Abby Normal | June 16, 2009 9:29 PM
Here's a recent blog post about the mismatch between body and brain, or Body Identity Identification Disorder (BIID).
Posted by: Vasha | June 16, 2009 9:43 PM
There is always making out, alcohol, and drugs at my high school dances, despite real efforts to keep the latter two out, and police presence. At my prom, just this month, one teacher took four or five students outside at a time so they could have a smoke. This is not particular to LGBT youth at all, so it's a little ridiculous for Max to have been so focused on that aspect. Maybe he's just really sheltered?
Posted by: Trent Eady | June 16, 2009 10:22 PM
Nothing going on there that doesn't go on at almost every Dallas metropolitan area high school prom.
Oh, except most of the local high schools don't bother to discourage gay kids from bringing gay dates. No fuss. Parents don't picket. Christians get all tolerant. You could chaperone most of these affairs and, unless you looked real hard, you couldn't tell.
Most of the area high schools work hard to prevent drinking and sexing, too, with less success.
When will WND grow up, or grow responsible?
Posted by: Ed Darrell | June 16, 2009 11:09 PM
I didn't get to make out at my prom. My date was the GAYEST BOY EVER. I'm sure he would have liked to live in a society where he could have taken his boyfriend as his date, but at least the photos look great- we looked fantastic. A straight date would never have bothered to make sure that his hair color coordinated with my dress!
Posted by: BrinyDeep | June 16, 2009 11:43 PM
Ya know, ALL of my gay friends smoke. I never made the connection. Obviously, being gay causes you to smoke, which can kill you. So: being gay=death. It's all so clear now...
Posted by: Brad | June 17, 2009 1:15 AM
The thing I'm still trying to figure out is what there is in the article - even if you are a rabid homophobe going "ewwww" - that's so "graphic" that it merits a warning at the top. I suppose some wingnuts may find Mr. Boston Leather hanging out with the kids offensive (I thought it was pretty funny), but too scary to read? Or just trying desperately to make it sound more lurid than it is?
Posted by: Midnight Rambler | June 17, 2009 3:32 AM
Aww. There were no gay proms when I was growing up! nobody was out in high school, things have sure changed. Now they get to almost act like regular teenagers. It warms the heart.
Posted by: maddyhatter | June 17, 2009 4:47 AM
Good points coming from Xayide, Diana and others; proprioception disorders are particularly difficult because so few people in the general public even know what it is, let alone understand how horrifying it must be to have this kind of condition.
I guess if we explain transexuality in the same terms, perhaps more people would understand it? Like, "Your brain keeps a map of your body. If your brain says you're female but your body is male, or vice versa, it's telling you something is wrong all the time". Perhaps?
Posted by: embertine | June 17, 2009 5:16 AM
This is niche marketing to people who think fart jokes are too subtle.
Posted by: kehrsam | June 17, 2009 5:30 AM
I suspect that some of the gendering of trans people is due to establishment pressures. If you want to transition, you have to live as the other sex for a couple of years - and you will be seen and judged on your performance. Counsellors, doctors and surgeons like to see a good traditional gender role before they recommend the surgery.
The first tranny I ever met (knowingly) was as girly as all get-out when I first met her. But post surgery, she relaxed and was able to wear jeans and no makeup like any normal woman. This was well over a decade ago now; I do hope that the requirements are getting less stringently stereotypical.
Posted by: Cath the Canberra Cook | June 17, 2009 6:29 AM
@Greta Christina
I don't know if you've already found this or not, but a good example of some of the evidence Alexis is referring to can be found in the May 2000 issue of the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism (I don't have a link, but if you go to the Journal's website and search for that issue you should find it).
It examined a portion of the limbic lobe that is known to be sexually dimorphic in male-to-female transsexuals and found that the transsexuals had brains more similar to non-transgendered females than to non-transgendered males. The researchers examined the variable of hormone therapy in adulthood and found that adult hormone treatments could not account for these differences. This suggests that these areas of the brain develop earlier in development (perhaps neo-natally, as they appear to do so in animal studies).
Posted by: Gabe | June 17, 2009 9:50 AM
Crap!
I meant "pre-natally," not "neo-natally."
Posted by: Gabe | June 17, 2009 9:58 AM
I just stumbled over from Pharyngula and wanted to add something:
I know there are some physicians here in germany who apply early hormone treatment to transgendered teens as early as pre-puberty. The main point is to prevent secondary sexual characteristics from occuring as these are especially hard to come by like puberty voice change in physical males, wide hips in physical females, gender-typical body hair etc.
German TV run a program about it and the boy (or rather girl) undergoing this treatment said the genitals were secondary to her and felt relieved to grow body features similar to her female friends. She was 15 at that time, I think, and had recieved hormone treatment for about three years.
This seems right to me since it might prevent later operations on stuff like breasts, facial features etc. and it prevents her from having to mess with facial hair etc. and, last but not least, a full grown genital (I, as a woman, would be terrified if I somehow had a penis that messes around like penises do during puberty).
I do not remember if they adressed later genital surgery since I imagine it might be hard to get enough skin for the neovagina (if I remember correctly, this is usually taken from the penis).
Posted by: Keenacat | June 17, 2009 1:49 PM
Wow, teenagers going to prom and smooching and dancing...oh, wait; they're gay!? Blasphemy!!
Bah, if someone, gay or straight, wants to deal with the bs of prom let them. Heck, even I went to those dances and snuck out of homecoming to go smooch with my boyfriend! Of course I was turned away at the door for my junior prom because my date was another woman. Who knows what heinous crimes we may have committed at that dance between slow dances and punch breaks!
I wish the religious right would just catch up with the rest of us rather than hiding their latent homosexual tendencies with a layer of violent, hateful behavior. It's getting old at this point.
Thanks for the article sir it provided me with many laughs.
Posted by: Kris | June 17, 2009 3:03 PM
A guy in drag isn't transgendered. I think WND has that a little confused (when it refers to "transgendered elvis"), no surprise here. :)
Posted by: Ian | June 17, 2009 5:08 PM
Okay, but that's kindof exactly what I was trying to say... is that one's gender identity doesn't have anything to do with one's sexual organs. That's why I'm not entirely sure how I feel about gender reassignment surgery.
The hypothetical that was posed to Azkyroth, what would I do if I felt the same gender identity I feel today, but my parts were the other sex... I obviously can never know what that is like, so it would be disingenuous of me to provide a concrete answer -- but I would like to think that I would find a way to come to terms with that and to appreciate and love both my body and my gender.
Maybe I'm wrong and that really isn't possible. I really don't know... I suppose the question is, how much of the correlation between gender and sex is a social construct, and how much is innate? If the correlation really is innate, then that would argue for gender reassignment surgery as the only way to correct a "disparity" between gender and sex. If the correlation is purely/mostly a social construct, though, then to me it would seem that (ideally) we would want to dispel that bias, in order that people would feel able to fully embrace their own bodies independent of their gender expression.
I'm really sorry if anybody thought I was saying that being transgendered was all about sex.. I agree that would be pretty offensive. I was actually trying to say the opposite, that I think gender expression is independent of sex -- which I admit has led me to question whether surgery is the appropriate response to a perceived gender/sex "discrepancy" -- but even if I am totally wrong about that, which I may be, I definitely did not want to give the impression that I thought being transgendered was nothing more than a sexual obsession. I sincerely apologize if anybody thought that's what I meant and was offended by it.
Posted by: James Sweet | June 17, 2009 6:14 PM
Oh, and FWIW, since BME was brought up, I am similarly ambivalent about some of the more extreme body modification. On one hand, I think it's potentially really empowering for a person to be able to exert so much radical control over how their body will look... but sometimes, I see modifications where I have trouble understanding how the personal aesthetic benefit could ever justify the costs (in terms of discomfort, inconvenience, potential side effects, etc.).
But you know, I don't really know what that feels like, so I don't mean to sound judgmental. Maybe it's pretty natural and healthy for some people to feel so driven to modify their body in a particular way, that it really does justify the heavy costs. Who am I to say...
Posted by: James Sweet | June 17, 2009 6:23 PM
You might have missed it, but as I said before, surgery has nothing to do with gender expression; there are transsexual men and women with a wide range of gender expressions and sexual orientations. Their issue is with their bodies not matching their minds, it's not about their societal gender roles. The problem as I see it is mostly semantic; people use the word gender for so many different things that we talk at cross-purposes.
As a transsexual woman AND a person who engages in light BME-style body mods, I can tell you that both things ARE healthy, and the only reason they seem so extreme to you is because you don't want them done to yourself.
Furthermore, I can tell you that transsexuality and desire for body mods do NOT come from the same place mentally. I am not a transsexual woman because I like the aesthetic or want to express a feminine gender; I am a transsexual woman because I was born one and have no choice. Pretending to be a male was constant misery for as long as I can remember (back to at least the age of five), and I'm lucky I survived long enough to transition.
Body mods, on the other hand, are fun, attractive aesthetically, and they feel good physically. That's why they're a hobby for me, not a fundamental part of my identity.
Posted by: Xayide | June 18, 2009 1:31 AM
Okay.
So.
I'm a transsexual man. In other words, I was born with a female body and primary sexual characteristics. In early childhood, I didn't pay any attention whatsoever to my gender, because kids are actually pretty androgynous and just see other kids as kids, and play in the mud and get in fights and do kid stuff. It wasn't until puberty that things went really wonky for me. Stuff started feeling really wrong. -Really- wrong. However, I didn't even know that gender transitioning and medical help was available to afflictions like I had until I was in my early twenties (I'm 27 now). If I'd been aware of my options at the time, hell yes I would have started transitioning earlier on in life.
I don't think people realise how much thought already goes into the decision to physically transition one's gender. It's not a matter of waking up one day and saying, "Golly, I'm a dude! I'm going to lop off my boobs!" and go and get it done over the weekend like a funky new piercing. There are -years- of introspection and self-questioning and mulling over doubt before you even talk to a therapist, and then it's ages of gabbing about it with a professional before they'll even write you a letter of recommendation for hormones, let alone gender corrective surgery.
And the cost alone is prohibitive enough that you really -really- have to know it's right for you to even pursue the idea. Almost all insurance companies will -not- cover any sort of gender-transitioning prescriptions or surgeries at all, full stop. (Oh, by the way, hormones therapy doesn't end; you have to keep it up, or some things start reverting and doing things that were the cause of your brain being very cross with your body. In my case, that's $80 a pop per vial of testosterone, for life.) A pile of therapy, recommendation letters, permanent life-altering changes, and a hefty price tag... Yeah, I think we've had a thought or two about the impact of it all on our lives.
In the end, I don't see why it should be distressing that a person would want to correct what is essentially a birth defect. Because, really, that's how I've seen it play out in my own life. Now that my body (or a good portion of it, anyway) reflects what my brain had mapped out, I feel like I can actually live life as I was meant to. It's like I finally found the zipper to some big, elaborate costume that was hot and itchy and heavy and uncomfortable, where I couldn't move like I should and could hardly breathe. (And where nobody believed I was actually wearing a costume, for that matter.)
Posted by: B-Gad | June 18, 2009 1:43 AM
I wish my city'd have a LGBT prom. ;o;;; That'd be so epic.
[Although I'm sure my girlfriend and I would prolly be the only lesbians there...]
OH JEE-ZUS PEOPLE MAKING OUT AT A PROM!? HOW TERRIBLE. AFFECTION IS SO NARSTY. 8(((((
Pfffffffffft that makes me lol.
Posted by: Katarina | June 18, 2009 6:01 PM
Every boy who puts on a dress and heels is not a transsexual. Come on macho men! You know you did it too when you were a boy. We all went through that stage when we were the exact same dress and shoe size as our mother or big sister. It is very natural for young people to explore gender roles and express themselves in ways that may be far removed from the primary identity they adopt as an adult. I'm very happy that there are venues now for young folks to explore gender roles in an affirming and healthy way. It has nothing to do with body mutilation or premature choices! I wonder if the reaction would have been any different if the article had said "girls in tuxes"? Good Lord!
Posted by: Michael | June 18, 2009 8:11 PM
And yet he stayed. I guess Max was just taking one for the team... or at least hoping to.
Posted by: Miguel | June 19, 2009 12:14 PM
Well, im a gay teenager and friends dont come that easy
i mean like because of the way i am does that affect my persomallity? i dont understand that whole "gay" and "straght" thing.
Posted by: Christian Greene | June 29, 2009 1:40 AM