Ed Brayton is a journalist, commentator and speaker. He is the co-founder and president of 
From one of the people protesting health care reform, as told by the New York Times:
"You'll be starting a civil war, you fascist tyrant!" yelled Andrew Beacham, 27, of nearby Falls Church, Va.Mr. Beacham, his hair in a ponytail, said in an interview that he believed Mr. Obama was a fascist because, he asserted, the bill would force Americans to pay for abortions and for government-provided health care. Reminded that Americans have long contributed to Medicare and Medicaid, Mr. Beacham replied, "I would favor getting rid of both of them, and Social Security, too. They're all going broke anyway."
Isn't that amazing? We've had social security for 70 years. We've had Medicare for 40 years. Both of them, just like healthcare reform, are fascist. And yet the nation has managed not to be fascist all that time. And so has every other Western democracy in the entire world, all of which have universal healthcare and haven't turned fascist as a result. A rational person would conclude from that all of this rhetoric about universal healthcare being fascist is bullshit.
This guy, however, is clearly not rational. He continues the dumbassery:
A freelance producer of film documentaries, Mr. Beacham said he did not have health insurance. "When I need health care, I pay for it out of pocket," he said, adding that he did not fear the possibility that an accident or illness would leave him with unaffordable bills. "I'm a Christian, so I'm not afraid of death," he said.
Hey, maybe God will pay his medical bills should he be so unlucky as to survive a catastrophic illness instead of going to heaven.
Politics
Comments
Actually Hitler and Stalin both banned abortion during their reigns. They also disliked homosexuals, and the Nazis believed that they could be cured.
I leave to the reader's imagination to determine whether or not I am making a veiled reference to a particular party.
Posted by: History Punk | November 9, 2009 9:39 AM
translation: he rants and raves on youtube from his mother's basement?
Posted by: Nomen Nescio | November 9, 2009 9:43 AM
If this guy falls seriously ill, let's just hope his dependants & his family fear debt recovery operatives1., about as much as he fears death2..
They'll both come, with near equal certainty. - DJ
_______________
1.Read: Stand-over man, thug, kneecapper.
2.With more than a hint of 'lobster courage'.
Posted by: DingoJack | November 9, 2009 9:47 AM
"You'll be starting a civil war, you fascist tyrant!"
That's what the slaveowners said to the abolitionists. What it meant -- and still means today -- is, in effect, "If you try to do something we don't like, we'll tear the country apart and blame you for it!"
Posted by: Raging Bee | November 9, 2009 9:48 AM
Well, Mr. Beacham is certainly a dumbass. But this is what comes of a system that provides universal single-payer coverage for SOME of its citizens, but not for ALL of its citizens.
Mr. Beacham is too stupid to put it all together, but yes, he has been paying into a system that provides healthcare and other benefits for others at his expense while providing him with nothing.
Can such a system survive much longer? Guess we are all going to find out, because it looks like Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security will rock on in their present forms while healthcare coverage for the rest of America is no closer to reality than it ever was.
Posted by: threetorches | November 9, 2009 9:59 AM
Raging Bee: Exactly. And the slave owners actually meant business, unlike these chicken hawks; they paid thugs to go to Kansas and burn people's houses down to scare politicians off the slavery subject.
History Punk: This is an excellent example of how our deliberate censoring of history, for instance, not mentioning that Hitler threw homosexuals in concentration camps until the college level, can have unintended negative consequences. If everyone was taught from the first that the Nazis persecuted homosexuals just as horrifically as ethnicities they didn't like, I suspect you'd have allot fewer folks who feel comfortable equating talking about "gay socialist fascism".
Posted by: Julian | November 9, 2009 10:00 AM
@DJ : There are two types of people in the world. Those who understand the phrase 'Lobster courage' and those who do not. I, apparently, fall into the latter category. Care to explain?
Mr Beacham obviously subscribes to the previously reported Republican health care plan.
Posted by: NoAstronomer | November 9, 2009 10:02 AM
What makes him think that an accident or illness would merely kill him, or would kill him quickly? The things worth fearing (and that are much more to the point here) are constant pain, great disability, and crushing poverty for himself and his family from paying out of pocket --- until he finally is supported by "fascist" Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security (or commits the unChristian act of suicide).
You're right, Ed, in saying that this guy is clearly not rational.
~David D.G.
Posted by: David D.G. | November 9, 2009 10:10 AM
Ed,
Do you, or do you not consider yourself a libertarian? I agree, this Beacham guy is nutty, and it's obvious that an expansion of government-run health insurance will not spark a civil war.
But you contradict yourself within a single paragraph. First you say, "We've had social security for 70 years. We've had Medicare for 40 years. Both of them, just like healthcare reform, are fascist." Then you finish by saying, "A rational person would conclude from that all of this rhetoric about universal healthcare being fascist is bullshit."
Which is it? Is government-run health insurance fascist, or is the rhetoric bullshit?
Posted by: Sean L. | November 9, 2009 10:11 AM
Sean L, if someone's stupid enough to declare a tiny baby step in the vague direction of maybe having universal health care someday in a few centuries* as some kind of vast fascist conspiracy to sap and impurify our precious bodily fluids, they're also stupid enough to say the same about Social Security, Medicare, unemployment insurance and the flouridation of water. And if they're that stupid, they're also stupid enough to be utterly incapable of realizing how idiotic those positions are, even when it's put on clear display.
*provided the GOP stops collectively acting as a cross between a terrorist organization bent on bringing our government to a grinding halt and a pack of whiny five-year-olds throwing a huge tantrum
Posted by: phantomreader42 | November 9, 2009 10:22 AM
Ed, while your recent commentary on this has been enlightening, I have to agree; you say, in the same blog post, that
-an expansion of government-run health insurance will not spark a civil war
-a rational person would conclude from that all of this rhetoric about universal healthcare being fascist is bullshit
and
-social security and Medicare are fascist
Not only are social security and Medicare very much not fascist (if you go by Hitlerian and Mussolini-an fascism, they didn't nationalize squat there, even though in Germany healthcare had been nationalized since 1889, and socialized programs such as these are very much socialist, which is all the way on the other side of the spectrum), but... well, you just contradicted yourself.
Posted by: Katharine | November 9, 2009 10:23 AM
'Alice's Adventure in Wonderland'. Lewis Carrol.
Posted by: DingoJack | November 9, 2009 10:23 AM
Sean and Katharine:
I read that as Ed describing Mr. Beacham's position that these social services are fascist, not that Ed thought so. Thus the observation immediately after that somehow all this fascism did not make the nation fascist, and the subsequent denial of the postion.
Posted by: Chris A | November 9, 2009 10:32 AM
If allowing American citizens to die for the crime of being poor is what we have to do to avoid being fascist, then maybe being fascist doesn't seem so bad after all. I mean, when the alternative is worse than the random buzzword you're spewing to scare people, maybe you need to take a closer look at your positions. And I bet he calls himself "pro-life" too. I wonder what all the dying people think about that.
Posted by: catgirl | November 9, 2009 10:32 AM
Katharine:
Um, what? Ed said that stuff about how expansion of health care won't spark a civil war and the idea that government health care is fascist is bullshit. But where, pray tell, did he go on to say that "social security and Medicare are fascist?"
Posted by: Geds | November 9, 2009 10:34 AM
Like Chris A @ 13, I read Ed's comment as a description of Beacham's position - he was constructing a proof by contradiction. "So, you don't like universal healthcare because it's fascist, but you apparently think the services we've already had for decades are also fascist, yet somehow the nation has remained unfascist despite them..."
Posted by: Morgan | November 9, 2009 10:38 AM
Reading comprehension, we're doing it wrong!
Ed isn't saying that those programs are fascist; he's using a reductio ad absurdum.
"If one assumes that Social Security and Medicare are fascist, how come we've had them for so long without the country sliding into fascism?"
He's saying (A implies B) and (not B), therefore (not A).
Posted by: Aureola Nominee, FCD | November 9, 2009 10:38 AM
Haven't you heard, Ed?
According to the prosperity gospel, the God of Israel is also the god of fabulous cash prizes.
So I'm sure if Mr. Beacham comes down with, say, liver cancer that God will be happy to cover all expenses for a transplant and aftercare to help ensure that his new organ isn't rejected by his own body.
Hell, if he's feeling generous God might even comp Mr. Beacham a free weekend in Palm Springs at a five-star hotel (18 holes of golf included) to help him get back on his feet.
Posted by: CHV | November 9, 2009 11:25 AM
CHV - If god had any sense he comp this guy "Weekend at Bernie's II" and cardboard box to die in. - DJ
Posted by: DingoJack | November 9, 2009 11:28 AM
I take that to be a formal declaration of a living will. You are hearby desginated: "DNR" (do not resusitate)
Posted by: Chilidog | November 9, 2009 11:28 AM
Below is Andrew Beacham's Twitter account...
http://twitter.com/abeacham
Apparently, he's got a rep for being a right-wing rabble rouser. Below is a link as to Beacham's past exploits, having broken into conservative activism alongside Randall Terry, so that would explain as lot as to his M.O.
http://teabaggersrcoming.blogspot.com/2009/10/gets-around-gets-around-he-gets-around.html
Posted by: CHV | November 9, 2009 11:31 AM
He's not afraid of death, but he's afraid of fascism? Why? Will insurance coverage for the 40 million uninsured in America--1/2 of 1 percent of the world's population--stop God's plan for the world from going forward?
Posted by: Dr X | November 9, 2009 11:32 AM
At least he's consistent. Most Republicans are fearmongering over "socialized medicine" but would never think about getting rid of medicare. Rep. Weiner (D) put out a sarcastic bill calling medicare socialized medicine and abolishing it to see if any Republicans would vote for it. They didn't.
Posted by: Eric | November 9, 2009 11:34 AM
I wonder why these illiterates continue to try to attach labels to these programs. Clearly they emulate their idols, demagogues such as Hannity and Beck, who traffic in easy shorthand. But it seems easier to me to attack the specifics without taking the risky leap into a broad label that is poorly understood. The number of times one of these saps has been confounded on camera with a single question I can count on one abacus. Why go there?
I have a theory. Virtually all of them seem to be Christianists of the stripe of Mr. Beacham. This species of populist hooey tries to be all things to its adherents, and never lets a question pass uncategorized and enemized. In their dim minds, every aspect of their character, dreams, ideas, and worldview is (as they think, properly), governed by their bone-deep jesusfreakism. That there is no intellectual consistency in their lives is actually a point of jesusfreakist pride.
So they view the rest of us in the same way. A lack of rigid conformity to a vaporous creed is a virtue; therefore, all opinions are the outgrowths of such creeds. Only one of those creeds is legitimate, by the way. That there might be people who take issues one at a time and attempt to fit them into a wide intellectual fabric, and make decisions based on the facts as they see them, and take the questions as they come, and treat those who think otherwise as they themselves would wish to be treated, etc. Meanwhile Beacham et al squint at us and seek for a label to explain our secret underlying unified field theory of liberal wrongness, and settle on nice sharp words like 'fascist' and 'socialist'.
Those folks can be forgiven, in a way; their opposition is essentially meaningless on a real electoral or legislative scale. It's the people who pander to them who are the real trouble. And worse, the folks like Jonah who then furnish their raving with scholarship--what came first?--like Liberal Fascism. Those folks are just nasty.
ice9
Posted by: ice9 | November 9, 2009 11:50 AM
I would venture a guess that Mr. Beacham has yet to ever actually need to pay for much healthcare, that he doesn't have children, and that he's ...
Oh wait, HERE">http://teabaggersrcoming.blogspot.com/2009/10/gets-around-gets-around-he-gets-around.html">HERE he is ...
Posted by: Andrea | November 9, 2009 11:51 AM
D'oh, CHV beat me to it. Guess we both recognized that name from somewhere. And I can't copy and paste html very well either. ;)
Posted by: Andrea | November 9, 2009 11:53 AM
I'm less worried about fascism than I am about people failing to recognize deliberate irony.
Posted by: Marty in Boise | November 9, 2009 11:54 AM
The health insurance companies have spread their memes well. It frightens me to see the true believers who volunteer to fight health care reform even though they are under insured or are just a few pay checks away from serious financial trouble if they are laid off.
Who do they think is paying for the brightly painted buses that delivered them to the town meetings? Who do they think is putting out the money to have thousands of protest signs professionally printed of Obama with a Hitler moustache?
Posted by: Gilgamesh | November 9, 2009 11:57 AM
Raging bee:
Your comment:
"That's what the slaveowners said to the abolitionists. What it meant -- and still means today -- is, in effect, 'If you try to do something we don't like, we'll tear the country apart and blame you for it!'."
... is what Lincoln observed in his second inaugural address, of powers that would rend this country in order to keep their power.
I see those powers today as corporations that control our government, the health and pharma industries, and so on.
Posted by: Rodney | November 9, 2009 12:08 PM
I just wonder where all these people have been for the last 40 years. It's not like we haven't had fascist health care for that long (as Ed noted). Why is it that the outrage only bubbles up when we talk about expanding it? Shouldn't these people have been marching in the streets for decades protesting government health care? Shouldn't Lindsey Graham have introduced legislation in every Congress he's been a part of to dismantle Medicare and the VA health system?
Posted by: chris | November 9, 2009 12:21 PM
Dr. X: He's not afraid of death, but he's afraid of fascism?
I about snorted my drink on that one. Great point - evidently Jesus can fix death but is powerless against fascism.
I guess democratic voting is sort of like God's kryptonite :)
Posted by: eric (but not Eric) | November 9, 2009 12:22 PM
It's mostly because the president has a (D) behind his name, so if good things happen while the Democrats are in power, then it makes them look good. It's all about winning some imaginary game at the expense of American citizens.
Posted by: catgirl | November 9, 2009 1:02 PM
catgirl @ 32:
In other words, for most all Republicans (including Joe Lieberman) health reform is one grand pissing contest with an eye to 2010, and no regard as to the well-being of their constituents.
Posted by: CHV | November 9, 2009 1:28 PM
I forget where I ran across this artivle orignally, it may have been on this blog for all I can recall:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-cay-johnston/gop-favors-public-option_b_296703.html
__________________________________________________
Atop the front page of the New York Times today is a color photo of Georgia homes flooded up to their rafters, an image that illustrates how when it comes to insurance our Congress applies two standards, separate and unequal, one for property and a lesser one for people.
Unlike people without health insurance, homeowners have access to public option flood insurance.
* * * * * * * * *
Consider the example of Trent Lott of Mississippi, who was that state's senior senator when Hurricane Katrina hit in 2005, flooding his home looking out on the Gulf. Lott had not exercised personal responsibility by taking out flood insurance even though it was available from the federal government at low cost. He did have private insurance, but his insurer refused to pay much of the claim, saying it was not wind damage (which was covered by the policy), but water damage (which was excluded).
Weeks later Lott introduced Senate Bill 1936, which would have authorized retroactive flood insurance. The idea came from Representative Gene Taylor, a Democrat who represented the Mississippi Gulf Coast, which should remind us that when there is voter demand for reform, and campaign contributions are not the driving force, the parties have worked together.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Senator Thad Cochran, also a Mississippi Republican and at the time chairman of the Senate Appropriations Committee, was key to getting taxpayer benefits for flooded property, according to Taylor's staff. The benefits were issued and expanded twice, a total of about $18 billion in all, Taylor's staff estimated.
Contrast the two Mississippi Republican senators' determined action to get welfare for flooded buildings with their votes against expanding SCHIP health insurance for poor children.
Cochran opposes a public option in health care; Lott, now a lobbyist, says Obama should just declare victory after some minor tweaks, a way to oppose without quite saying so.
Mississippi Governor Haley Barbour, the former head of the Republican Party, has spoken cautiously, but also appears to oppose a public option. But he, too, was an enthusiastic supporter of retroactive benefits for flooded property. Barbour even got the relief expanded and urged everyone to get their government property benefits.
_______________________________________
Read the whole thing.
Not that glaring hypocrisy from the right is news to anyone....
I think this article should be on every MSM channel 24/7 for the next month until real health care reform gets passed.
Posted by: FastLane | November 9, 2009 1:55 PM
WELL DONE Fast Lane! Ammunition for future arguments...THANKS!
Posted by: W. | November 9, 2009 3:16 PM
Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I don't believe that social security, Medicare or the current health care reform bill are fascist. But the same people who believe the current bill is fascist also believe that social security are fascist. So why haven't we turned fascist yet? And why haven't all those other nations that already have universal healthcare turned fascist?
Posted by: Ed Brayton | November 9, 2009 3:49 PM
Fastlane,
I think wingnuts have always cared more about property than humans. It's why they want the freedom to shoot anyone who trespasses on their property, even people who are clearly not a threat, yet they also want to force women to continue pregnancies against their will. If only they thought of human bodies as little houses, we might get somewhere on a vast amount of issues.
Posted by: catgirl | November 9, 2009 3:55 PM
Ed, Fascism is Socialism is Marxism is the Democratic Party. . . . .
Or something like that.
Posted by: Chilidog | November 9, 2009 3:56 PM
Or maybe it’s Fascist is Dada is Beatnik?
Posted by: Chilidog | November 9, 2009 3:59 PM
"I'm a Christian, so I'm not afraid of death," he said.
A Death Panel™ of one.
Posted by: jimmiraybob | November 9, 2009 4:09 PM
Thanks for the clarification, Ed. Is it correct to classify a policy as fascist? I was always under the impression only governments can be considered fascist. As policies, Social Security, Medicare, and the health insurance reform currently being debated are without a doubt, socialist policies. Some may worry adopting socialist policies could lead down the road to fascism, or before that point, a civil war. I believe our country still has plenty of swing in the pendulum to reverse whatever people want to reverse without the need for bloodshed.
FastLane: One main problem with this comparison is in order to really make it comparable with what may pass for 'health care reform' it would need to include free duct tape, free pipe dope, free replacement pipes and fixtures whenever something springs a leak, free regular visits from a plumber to check for problems, and no extra charge if I'm an idiot and build my house in the middle of a dry lake bed. Honestly now, what do you think all these things would do to the price of flood insurance?
Posted by: Sean L. | November 9, 2009 4:31 PM
I get sick of the strident labeling of arguments, policy suggestions, or proposals as fascist, socialist, democratic, dictatorial or whatever. When someone opens their mouth and opines thusly, I turn my ears off. I had enough of name calling during my childhood. It sheds no light on a subject, won't win any real debate, and enlightens no one, least of all the speaker. The debate in Congress over health care has been loaded with it, especially from the Republicans. It is the political equivalent of the lawyer pounding the table, which can be effective with those who can be intimidated or scared by such rhetoric.
Posted by: Keanus | November 9, 2009 5:11 PM
The problem with idiots like this is that the Republicans, the reichwing media, faux news, etc., have been very good at framing issues and labeling stances. They have convinced their listeners and viewers the following:
liberal = bad
socialist = bad
communist = bad
fascist = bad
Since Democrats are liberal, Democrats are bad. Since Democrats, liberals, socialists, communists, and fascists are all bad, it is, in their miniature construct of a brain, entirely logical to argue that the president and his policies are fascist-socialist-communism.
This is why these idiots honestly believe the conservative talking heads when they blame liberals for both Stalin AND Hitler. It doesn't matter that Hitler eliminated the communists, socialists, and then the unions in his move to consolidate his power, Hitler was, again in their bizarre version of history, a Fascist-socialist-communist. I've asked them if Hitler and Stalin were both Communists, then why did they attempt to exterminate one another. Honestly scared the shit out of one when one of them literally answered, with a blank face, "they did?"
It makes me wonder sometimes if the general Republican disdain for education, education funding, etc., isn't a deep seated part of their plan. Keep the patsies stupid, educate them just enough so they can turn on the TV, buy stuff, sign their names on contracts and land deeds, and then convince them to support whatever piece of crap legislation that really hurts them in the long run but helps your wealthy friends.
Posted by: dogmeatib | November 9, 2009 6:16 PM
History Punk:
Is it me or was the the Nazi movement started by a leftwing socialist labor union who hated Jews, welcomed Islamofascists, and then sought to silence any critics.
Recognize which party I refer to?
Posted by: Patriot Fighter | November 9, 2009 9:28 PM
Patriot Fighter:
That note on your prescription bottle that says, "take capsules with liquid", it doesn't mean Everclear.
Posted by: democommie | November 9, 2009 9:32 PM
I have ben watching this from afar for quite a while now and come to the following conclusion, illustrated well by this nutter.
If people suffer from diseases that they can't afford the cost of curing, then God means them to die, and therefore universal health care is opposing the will of God.
Posted by: Keith Harwood | November 9, 2009 11:56 PM
@Patriot Fighter: Actually, they were xenophobes that hated immigrants, homosexuals, and atheists. They also loved Jesus to bits and demanded everyone else do so while outlawing abortion. Can't imagine why *that* would ring bells.
Posted by: JThompson | November 10, 2009 1:05 AM
Patriot Fighter @ 44 states:
Duh, the Nazi party.
However Nazis were not "leftwing" but instead center-right though that is not what distinguished them. What distinguishes them is their extreme position on the political continiuum towards authortarianism. See here for one of many citations: http://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2
Nazism is often considered by scholars to be a form of fascism. While it incorporated elements from both left and right-wing politics, the Nazis formed most of their alliances on the right. I could list all those political right alliances but I'm guessing Patriot Fighter's eyes have glazed over by now as he fights to maintain his delusions.
Citations for above assertion: Fritzsche, Peter. 1998. Germans into Nazis. Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press; Eatwell, Roger, Fascism, A History, Viking/Penguin, 1996, pp.xvii-xxiv, 21, 26–31, 114–140, 352. Griffin, Roger. 2000. "Revolution from the Right: Fascism," chapter in David Parker (ed.) Revolutions and the Revolutionary Tradition in the West 1560-1991, Routledge, London.
Posted by: Michael Heath | November 10, 2009 7:16 AM
"So why haven't we turned fascist yet? And why haven't all those other nations that already have universal healthcare turned fascist?"
I assume it has to do with the fact that fascism is buried deep with the corporatist state and gross radical nationalism. Though the GOP is knee-deep in the latter, neither of the two political parties have advocated the extend of the former.
On an aside, I don't think Mr. Beacham knows what that word means anyways.
Posted by: Shawn Wilkinson | November 10, 2009 7:55 AM
Oh, you mean the GOP for the last seven or so years?
/snark
Posted by: Josh | November 10, 2009 8:00 AM
I'm sure that is their goal. Their only tools are ignorance and fear.
Posted by: catgirl | November 10, 2009 8:40 AM
dogmeatib @ 43:
I would argue populism itself rejects intellectualism. The Republicans since post-WWII have merely exploited this attribute. They've been more effective than other parties in the past given the emigration of conservatives from the South out of the Democratic party and into the GOP which has led to a larger more monolithic voter base to exploit.
However, this Southern strategy appears to be a long-term bust given America's increased racial and religious diversity combined with their getting so nuts they're chasing independents and moderates out of the party (though not necessarily from voting for them as we experienced in NJ and VA last week).
Posted by: Michael Heath | November 10, 2009 9:12 AM
"Their only tools are ignorance and fear."
And fostering hatred. Their only tools are ignorance, fear, and fostering hatred.
Also dishonesty.
The tools which they use are ignorance, fear, fostering hatred, and dishonesty.
Denial? Oh, yes.
The tools they use, which nobody expects, are ignorance, fear, fostering hatred, dishonesty and denial.
Sorry - the door was wide open on that one.
Posted by: dean | November 10, 2009 9:15 AM
They'll take away his lack of health care when they pry it out of his cold dead bank account!
Posted by: Julie Stahlhut | November 10, 2009 4:45 PM
Ah Pluuuuuuuuuuughhh!
By the way. I don't hate immigrants. I just hate paying their bills. If they wish to come here and work they should pay their share of their income tax. i should not have to pay for someone else's shit. I am not a socialist. i am a soverign citizen. Period.
Come here, obey the law, work hard, and PAY YOUR OWN DAMNED BILLS! Is it really that hard to understand?
Posted by: Patriot Fighter | November 12, 2009 10:09 PM
Patriot Failure burbled "By the way. I don't hate immigrants ..."
Well of course you say you don't hate immigrants!
I'm sure you'll go on to tell us that some of your best friends are immigrants, hell you even occasionally let them come inside to use your bathroom (before getting your undocumented maid* clean it out with a toothbrush and industrial-strength bleach), you're such a humanitarian and a patriot! - DJ
_____________
* naturally, you pay her less than the minimum wage. Why should you pay, if she doesn't like it then she can just bugger-off home, right?
PS: Which tribe of Native Americans did you claim to belong to again?
Posted by: DingoJack | November 12, 2009 10:41 PM
Patriot Failure:
"I just hate paying their bills. If they wish to come here and work they should pay their share of their income tax."
You ignorant fucking douchebag. They pay income taxes and SS in many cases and get NOTHING for it. You're truly pathetic.
Posted by: democommie | November 12, 2009 10:54 PM