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Ed Brayton is a journalist, commentator and speaker. He is the co-founder and president of Michigan Citizens for Science and co-founder of The Panda's Thumb. He has written for such publications as The Bard, Skeptic and Reports of the National Center for Science Education, spoken in front of many organizations and conferences, and appeared on nationally syndicated radio shows and on C-SPAN. Ed is also a Fellow with the Center for Independent Media and the host of Declaring Independence, a one hour weekly political talk show on WPRR in Grand Rapids, Michigan.(static)

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Bob Barr Redeems Himself - A Little Bit

Posted on: February 21, 2010 9:23 AM, by Ed Brayton

Okay, I hammered Barr on Friday for his idiotic statement about pagans in the military. But I'll give him credit for going to CPAC and telling the conservatives there that waterboarding is torture. He got booed for it. But he was right. And he was telling exactly the people who needed to hear it. Okay, Bob, you redeemed yourself a little bit.

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I agree, though it's disturbing that we have to congratulate someone for saying that torture is torture.

Posted by: Henry Neufeld | February 21, 2010 9:36 AM

Yeah, gotta admit, no cookie from me. Saying no to torture isn't admirable, it simply means you aren't evil.

Posted by: Maxmillion | February 21, 2010 9:45 AM

Correction, Max. It only means you aren't as evil as the rest of the creeps.

Posted by: Budbear | February 21, 2010 10:01 AM

Henry Nuefeld @ 1:

I agree, though it's disturbing that we have to congratulate someone for saying that torture is torture.

Well said.

Maxmillion @ 2:

Yeah, gotta admit, no cookie from me. Saying no to torture isn't admirable, it simply means you aren't evil.

I strongly disagree. Currently conservatives dominate the GOP and have been very effective at keeping the troops in line on items used to increase their electoral chances. We need to acknowledge that Mr. Barr took a firm public stance contra to a position that the Republicans believe will serve them well in future elections in spite of it being a truly evil position. While it may be insufficient to provide operating room for any Republicans still in possession of a conscience, at least Mr. Barr made his voice known in very clear terms.

Posted by: Michael Heath | February 21, 2010 10:26 AM

I think every candidate supporting ~~torture~~ waterboarding should volunteer to experience it.

Posted by: MikeMa | February 21, 2010 10:30 AM

I agree - no one should support torture, and telling people that waterboarding (anybody) is wrong is like telling a person that lynching people because of color of their skin or their religious beliefs is wrong.

... of course, sometimes the mob is just that: a mob. And one knows how rational and reasonable mob mentality is.

Posted by: mercurianferret | February 21, 2010 10:45 AM

As I've stated ad nauseam when torture was a frequently debated topic, focusing solely on waterboarding has repeatedly proven to be a political loser. It has not resonated with the American people as analogous to torture in spite of it being torture.

We need to instead focus on the atrocities that were far more tortorous though admittedly more difficult to describe in a soundbite. We also have pictures of those events and can point to how they correlate with the orders signed by President Bush. Those being the following done simultaneously to individual detainees: held wet, naked and cold, sleep deprivation, stress positions - sometimes to the point of joint dislocation, beatings during stress position breaks - sometimes to death, either sensory overload or deprivations, more.

Posted by: Michael Heath | February 21, 2010 10:49 AM

I don't find this exactly redeeming, but I guess it's something...

Hey, he still does have the glasses though :)

Posted by: deep | February 21, 2010 12:55 PM

Only a panel discussion "moderated" by Jay Sekulow could have Bob Barr as the sole voice of reason.

Sekulow and his ACLJ are in the business of demagoguing the issues of church and state to blue collar Christian dullards in the heartland so they will send their kid's lunch money to him.

He is the right wing analogue of the slimy Morris Dees and his SPLC that demagogue the issues of racism to liberal little old ladies who send him part of their social security checks.

Posted by: Lance | February 21, 2010 1:35 PM

As I've stated ad nauseam when torture was a frequently debated topic, focusing solely on waterboarding has repeatedly proven to be a political loser. It has not resonated with the American people as analogous to torture in spite of it being torture.

I have to wonder how much shows like 24 have helped cement the idea that torture always works and is an acceptable tactic in the public's mind. I think in the season before last there was a stretch of about six shows in a row where Jack Bauer used some form of torture to extract accurate information from a bad guy in the ticking time bomb scenario.

So far this season they've stayed away from portraying torture completely -- they even had an Imam giving aid and comfort to a dying Jack Bauer, which really upset many of the torture brigade -- as they mostly did last season, but it's probably too late to put the genii back in the bottle.

Posted by: tacitus | February 21, 2010 1:43 PM

tacitus "I have to wonder how much shows like 24 have helped cement the idea that torture always works and is an acceptable tactic in the public's mind."
Imagine how much a modernized A-Team show would've helped Blackwater!

Posted by: Modusoperandi | February 21, 2010 2:05 PM

I just heard that Ron Paul won the straw poll at CPAC perhaps some of these conservatives are more "libertarian" then I gave them credit for. I thought that booing sounded kind of weak. And there were no cries to burn him at a stake for being a terrorist lovin' terrorist either...

Posted by: deep | February 21, 2010 2:40 PM

Bob Barr Redeems Himself - A Little Bit

Subject to change without notice. Why is this right-wing weathervane even worth our time?

Posted by: RAging Bee | February 21, 2010 3:03 PM

Raging Bee @ 13 - I missed you on a different blog post thread where an arch-conservative was self-identifying as a libertarian. His first post is up a bit from this link, which spurred me to ask him some questions which led to the linked comment presented here.

Posted by: Michael Heath | February 21, 2010 4:11 PM

Going to CPAC (which had a love fest with Dick Cheney earlier) and stating loud and clear that waterboarding is torture does take moral courage. Everyone, of course, should have the cojones to do it, but few do. Kudos to Bob Barr for being one who does.

Posted by: BC | February 21, 2010 4:22 PM

"Imagine how much a modernized A-Team show would've helped Blackwater!"

XE is waiting for the A-Team movie (June 11, in a theater near you) to reset their mojo.

Posted by: dean | February 21, 2010 4:26 PM

And Hollywood again murders yet another small part of my childhood...

Posted by: Modusoperandi | February 21, 2010 4:44 PM

deep wrote:

I just heard that Ron Paul won the straw poll at CPAC perhaps some of these conservatives are more "libertarian" then I gave them credit for.

Those at CPAC who lean libertarian do so only in the economic context, not in any other. I would be willing to bet that if you took a poll of those in attendance and asked about torture, warrantless wiretaps or the 4th amendment you'd find less than 10% -- and that's being generous -- who would agree with Ron Paul on those issues.

Posted by: Ed Brayton | February 21, 2010 5:30 PM

Least of all his strict policy of non-interventionism.

Posted by: tacitus | February 21, 2010 6:04 PM

"Imagine how much a modernized A-Team show would've helped Blackwater!"

Good news, an A-Team movie is coming out in June.

Posted by: History Punk | February 21, 2010 6:14 PM

@Ed

Yea I figured as much, that's why I put libertarian in quotes.

Still I'm surprised that he was able to do better than romney. I mean could conservatives there actually be thinking about economics more than the GOP talking points on terrorism and governmental social meddling?

Of course, I give it about a week before both Barr and Paul get trashed as terror lovin' terrorists who are soft on terrorism, (and probably pinkos in a way only Fox news can think up).

Posted by: deep | February 21, 2010 8:28 PM

Heath: Sorry, I was busy and missed that exchange. Good on ya for handling it though.

I would be willing to bet that if you took a poll of those in attendance and asked about torture, warrantless wiretaps or the 4th amendment you'd find less than 10% -- and that's being generous -- who would agree with Ron Paul on those issues.

So why did Ron Paul waste his time with a group who are diametrically opposed to him 90% of the time? Pick one or more possible answers: a) he doesn't care enough about those other issues to stand up for them and risk losing CPAC's support; b) CPAC are using him as the token libertarian and don't really give a shit what he has to say; c) Ron Paul and his supporters are bankrolled by anti-government, anti-accountability business interests, so they'll always put business interests ahead of real individual liberty.

Yet another case of a "libertarian" dutifully acting as a mannequin in the shop window of his worst ideological enemies, and pretending he's "front and center." What a fucking joke.

Posted by: Raging Bee | February 22, 2010 9:47 AM