Effect Measure

Madness

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Comments

  1. #1 Jason
    July 15, 2006

    Madness, indeed. Criminal, self-destructive insanity, on both sides…

  2. #2 tan06
    July 15, 2006

    Excessive, unlimited, where will this all end for the people on both sides of the border?

  3. #3 Marcie
    July 15, 2006

    And done with ordnance provided by U.S. taxpayers.

  4. #4 tympanachus
    July 15, 2006

    We, the people, have a God Given Right to Profit from guaranteeing that God’s Chosen People inhabit the ?Holy? Land so that the Rapture comes off on schedule. ‘Tis part of Prosperity Theology and Halliburton’s (et al.) Coporate Goals.

    Wander on down to the DVD rental store and try on some Why We Fight to better understand all this.

  5. #5 bar
    July 15, 2006

    ordinance also courtesy of Iranian taxpayers?

  6. #6 Gaudia
    July 15, 2006

    Epidemiologists Needed.
    Practice in temperate climes.
    Knowledge of Homeopathy, Naturopathy essential.
    Understanding of social structure during the Caliphate required.
    Ability to ride Camel, Horse, Donkey a necessity.

    Lebanon and Gaza will soon show us how the citizenry can survive as citizens of the 7th Century.

    Fault? Of course, it’s the Americans, stupid.

  7. #7 revere
    July 15, 2006

    Gaudia: The US military now accepts recruits up to age 42, which makes you eligible. Iraq and Afghanistan await you. Maybe if you’re lucky and all works out as you wish, you can even visit Lebanon, Syria and Iran and who knows where else. C’mon, Gaudia. Be All That You Can Be.

    Or do you have urgent patriotic business snug as a bug in a rug back in Ojai?

  8. #8 tympanachus
    July 15, 2006

    revere: “~urgent patriotic business”

    Body bags, I believe that would be.

  9. #9 AF
    July 15, 2006

    Revere, you need a punch in the face.

  10. #10 Marcie
    July 15, 2006

    “ordnance also courtesy of Iranian taxpayers?”
    I was thinking the Iranians probably provided the ordnance that the other guys were lobbing. This picture looked to me like the airport in Beirut.
    This doesn’t look good either way.

  11. #11 M. Randolph Kruger
    July 15, 2006

    Now be nice AF. It serves no purpose to punch him in the face. He didnt start it and he is like any good American about how this could escalate out of control. Now we could start in Iran and work our way down if we wanted to punch someone in the face. But we would have to start here with Jimmy Carter in the 70’s. Info: Israelis are now setting up in full divisional strength for a slog north into Lebanon. They are prepping for a full amphibious and airborne assault on Beirut and they are going to kick some major ass. My guys are telling me its going to be a turkey shoot because Hezbollah doesnt know how to operate the equipment and they have no fuel. They are going to smoke them and might as well surrender now before it becomes a mass murder. And yeah, thats the plan. They have told the people of Beirut to bail out if they dont want to get dead. Now for the politics. EVEN THE SAUDI’S in a statement said that the “responsible parties” have brought this upon themselves and they should immediately cease and desist all actions against Israel and begin talks. It doesnt mean shit but they said it. Its the thought that counts. This statement was made because Syrian backed Hezbollah murdered the illegitimate son of a member of the Royal Family who was a very widely respected diplomat in Lebanon two years ago.

    Israeil occupied Lebanon for 20 years and still got shelled. They left, they still got shelled, they gave land back and they got shelled, then Hamas/Hezbollah took soldiers and they now they get rockets lobbed at them. None of this is good, I do understand the Israeli logic of it. I again say for the record that if anyone has any pull with Hamas or Hezbollah that they should exert it now or theres going to be one hell of a lot of hurt put on them. If Syria intervenes then all bets are off. I dont think the Ruskies are going to sit back and do nothing if the Israelis move into Damascus, nor will the EU. Those guys are customers. An intervention would give Israel the right to attack Damascus and they will be more than happy to implement a regime change.

    Tymp:. Flipside thinking..Our Hallburton on the flipside that everyone ignores is the Russians government who sold nearly a billion dollars worth of stuff to Hezbollah in the last 8 months. The French sell to both sides and they have ships in Haifa now unloading ammo and shells. Areva in France had ocean containers sitting on the quayside when we invaded Iraq. They were filled with parts from the finest reactor manufacturer in the world . Come on guys, you know this isnt going to change a thing. We will still be seeing the same thing happening in 20 years.

    Relax… Have Hezbollah take 200 155mm rounds for 24 hours and have the Palestinians Authority call me in the morning about that headache.

  12. #12 revere
    July 15, 2006

    I usually delete AF’s posts, but I’ll leave this one up as it is a concise summary of his argument. AF is a highschool student with too much time on his hands and too little parental supervision. Time out for you, AF. Go sit in the corner.

    Randy: It’s not as if Israel was doing nothing. They were occupying land, assassinating political leaders, restricting movement, destroying political, physical and social infrastructure, bulldozing houses. News summaries in the US make it sound like they were sitting around the victim of unprovoked rocket attacks. Twice as many Palestinians have died in the second intifada as Israelis. This conflict is led by gangsters on each side locked in a death grip, unable to stop. The US has shown no leadership in cutting this Gordian knot.

    If the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome, then this is truly insanity.

  13. #13 M. Randolph Kruger
    July 15, 2006

    No, you are right. They aint leaving that stone on the ground now are they? Remember my last post ? I said that they are going to have to decide if this trip is necessary and whether its going to be worth it. Never is. I am hearing rumblings from the EU that indicates they would support a return to the green line, blue line …end of the line approach to separating them with UN troops. Wont do any good. As for the Gordian knot, if they did the Israelis would fall within three weeks. We give them about 3 million of overall trade and military support a day, and the PA about 500,000 in humanitarian.

    I truly fear what will happen when they attack Damascus, and they will.

  14. #14 tympanachus
    July 15, 2006

    Kruger! Here’s a good book fur ya: Innocent Blood by Christopher Dickey, Newsweek’s Shadowland man. Competently written and your kinda shit. Sumthin to do when you’re not writing travel guides.

  15. #15 Thinlina
    July 15, 2006

    Just noticed that the church in Lexington Avenue, New York, is a jewish synagogue.

  16. #16 Melanie
    July 15, 2006

    Since AF doesn’t seem to understand that in order to have a point of view you have to engage in actually advancing an argument rather than ad hominem invective, he doesn’t really add much to the discussion.

  17. #17 mary in hawaii
    July 15, 2006

    This is a test. I just tried to post an opinion that was not allowed as containing “spam” type words. I rewrote anything I could think of as potential “spam-guage” but still no go. If this one doesn’t go through I am going to think I am simply banned.

  18. #18 mary in hawaii
    July 15, 2006

    According to China Daily, on Friday Palestine President Abbas secretly met in Jordan with the head of Israeli security service: Israel agreed to trade Palestinian prisoners for the captured Israeli soldier if the agreement was reached with the Palestinian National Authority, not Hamas. The article said Abbas is chairman of the PNA, but isn’t he, as president, also over Hamas? Anyway, later the same day the Israeli army announced it has completed its activities in the central gaza strip. I haven’t seen anything on the wires yet about this so we’ll see.

    To me the important point here is that, after three weeks of mass destruction of vital infrastructures and tens or hundreds of civilian deaths from bombing outright, probably many more to come from related health causes, in the end someone gets together quietly over a glass of wine and comes to a sane arrangement that could have been done without any of this.

  19. #19 revere
    July 15, 2006

    mary: No, we are having quite a tussle with the spam filter. As you see, both of your posts made it this time. We are working with Sb to figure out what to do. Glad you were finally able to post.

  20. #20 mary in hawaii
    July 15, 2006

    To continue my previous commentary:

    Does anyone feel that President Abbas would not have agreed to trade the Israeli soldier for the Palestinian prisoners, or that Hamas would not have let him, unless and until their country was blown apart? Someone explain war to me, because it seems like after the apes get done slugging it out until they are both bloody and exhausted, they always end up sitting down together and saying let’s talk.

  21. #21 mary in hawaii
    July 15, 2006

    ok, the last little bit..

    We’ve been doing the same thing since the dawn of mankind, and we never learn, even when we know the bullets have gone nuclear and could wipe out the planet and our civilization with them, and by god we’d better talk first. But we don’t. It would seem we’ve reached the peak of our Darwinian evolution?

  22. #22 GaudiaRay
    July 15, 2006

    This posting is not a joke, folks. While there are bleeding hearts concerned about the health of babies, the guys who ripped off the soldiers, and who hold the key, are not among them. Outsiders are. Bless you.

    Now, were the Israelis like the Palestinians and Hizb’allah, I’d be involved, doing land office biz, supplying bodybags; but alas, only the brave souls, the epidemiologists are the fortunate many as those places will be a mess, and there’ll be lots of money tossed into those fine beachfront communities, the Israelis having constructed the greatest training areas of the recent past.

    Instead of being similar to the Hizb’allah, with your small mind, revere, smell the opportunity and rejoice that the spotlight turns to your happy field, epidemiology.

    However, as you’re my age (the one I know at least, born around the end of WW2), you may be too old to learn to master the Ass, but I’m sure some delegation will happily truck you around in a horse drawn cart…do bring your own grain as the silos appear in disrepair.

    To me, this is the greatest tragedy of the first world witnessed since WW2. The fools who run Lebanon, the small minds, have been shown to be politically emasculated and as a consequence, nearly the entire population will have been driven into the 7th Century. The Caliphate awaits. Their dream comes true. Do go; do help, and bon voyage as there will be more than a career’s lifetime of things to do.

    Epidemiologists Needed.
    Practice in temperate climes.
    Knowledge of Homeopathy, Naturopathy essential.
    Understanding of social structure during the Caliphate required.
    Ability to ride Camel, Horse, Donkey a necessity.

    Lebanon and Gaza will soon show us how the citizenry can survive as citizens of the 7th Century.

  23. #23 revere
    July 15, 2006

    Gaudia: You know one of the Revere’s ages? Really! How interesting. I’ll have to ask her about it. The Caliphate awaits. Hmmm. So what’s your prediction, Gaudia? How is this going to end? I’m interested.

  24. #24 AF
    July 15, 2006

    Alas, many times have I questioned revere on the points he raises, only for my posts to disappear!

    I, for one, am concerned with the public health effects of tunnelling 300 yards under protective barriers into neighboring countries in order to murder and kidnap border guards. I would like revere to comment on that!

    I am further concerned about the public health effects of blowing yourself up in a bus full of children, in the cafe of a mall, or at the holiday banquet fill with senior citizens. Where is the revere’s commentary on those attrocities?

    And what more about the public health effects of launching over 20 rockets a day into neighboring territories, where the often explode in school yards and in people’s homes, where the kill children at play or families at dinner? I have yet to see either revere comment on such hate.

    Then there are the public health effects of embezzling, nay stealing millions of American, EU, and Israeli tax dollars allocated for schools and hospitals, and instead spending them on weapons, explosives, and war. Have you seen any posts on EM talking about this? I haven’t.

    Instead, revere repeatedly uses Nazi terminology to describe the self defense actions of a tiny little nation under seige on all sides by hate filled savages who would like nothing more than to murder every single Jew on the face of the Earth.

    What else am I supposed to deduce than he is an anti-semite?

    And when he repeatedly deletes my posts, what more should I deduce than he is a coward of the first order?

    So no, revere and your ilk, continue to revel in your anti-semitism, continue to spread hatred of Israel and America, and continue your pathetic little sheltered existence defending hate filled terrorists and condemning those who act out of self defense.

    I think you should all move to Gaza. You’d change your tune then or you’d be killed by those lovable little terrorists you never fail to defend on these pages.

  25. #25 tympanachus
    July 15, 2006

    revere: “So what’s your prediction, Gaudia? How is this going to end?”

    In another endless bipolar rant by GR who last I heard lacked company for his flu hidey hole.

    Good ta see ya on a tangent, at least, Gr. Not 110% flu or gold.

  26. #26 tympanchus
    July 15, 2006

    Oh, sorry for the distraction – important stuff just above.

    Jeez, AF, go sit in a pizza parlour…

  27. #27 mary in hawaii
    July 15, 2006

    Gaudia You mention “caliphate” in several recent postings. Perpetrators of the myth (last publically claimed by Cheney in a news mag interview with John Roberts) that Al Qaeda’s plans are to establish a caliphate that extends from Spain through the entire Middle East to Indonesia, and whose goal is the destruction of Israel, are simply armageddonists seeking to fool the foolish that the prophecies of Ezekiel are coming true. We have anthropomorphized a nebulously linked group of terrorists organizations – Al Qaeda – into some sort of coherent, well organized and evil entity. This creates enormous emotional (and financial) support among the Christian Rapturists and Apocalyptic Jews for the continuation of our state sponsored conflicts in the Middle East. These fundamentalists seem to believe that their current life is so bad, the afterlife will be worth all the death and suffering the world must go through to achieve it. Those believing that the rapture will follow the Jewish apocalypse and precede the all out world war of armageddon, by and large seem to think they are pure enough to be in the initial 144,000 that float up without a scratch to watch it all from some cloud. Supporters of the Jewish apocalypse believe that if they or their loved ones are killed it won’t matter, because the dead will be brought back to life once it’s all over.
    If there is a “divine creator” here behind all this, I don’t see how anyone could argue that he has one perverse sense of irony. Same god, 3 different names, 3 different main prophets, sets all his believers against each other in some massive war of mutual self destruction to prove which one is right? Ah Hahahahaha…and we thought the Roman gods f—d around with man for their amusement!

  28. #28 AF
    July 15, 2006

    I’ve asked all these questions before and all that happens is my posts are deleted. Take that for what you will.

  29. #29 Sue in NH
    July 15, 2006

    It IS madness, but who to blame is certainly open to debate. There is so much history of wrong doing on both sides.

    If I were to lay blame, it would be on evolution for making such a messed up species, capable of so much destruction yet at the same time unable to forsee the long term consequences of violence.

    Its called the human condition.

    And that goes for BOTH sides of the conflict.

  30. #30 Thinlina
    July 15, 2006

    See Shakespeares “The Merchant of Venice” and understand israelis…

  31. #31 Ricardo
    July 15, 2006

    Dr. Niman thinks that the avian virus is smarter than most of the scientists trying to unravel its mysteries. He doesn’t go far enough. It appears that the virus is smarter than most members of the self-destructive human species. Listen carefully and you can hear a lot of viral laughter out there coming from the bird bellies. Guess who’s going to be around to witness our extinction??

    Hey, Mary…You are always to the point.. Right on!

  32. #32 substitute
    July 16, 2006

    This is a good effect. The twin columns of smoke make their own point, and then the paragraphs of rage-choked internet idiots set it off perfectly. The overall result would just be an admirable work of art were it not for all the corpses and wrecked lives.

    It’s not fashionable to be in favor of peace. The hundred-percenters everywhere demand war without end.

  33. #33 Glenn 50
    July 16, 2006

    They are all mad. So is the media. The biased opinions on all sides of the media amazes me.
    Kidnapped soldiers one side….prisoners of war the other side.
    All I know is that by the end of the week oil will be over $80 a barrel.
    The poor will be poorer.

  34. #34 BAW in MI
    July 16, 2006

    Wow, you must have had inflammatory words…where your post is supposed to be is a blank white space. Madness, indeed.

  35. #35 Aunt Deb
    July 16, 2006

    The argument that the situation is somehow genetic or universal, that ‘this’ has been going on for ‘thousands of years’ or as a result of the human condition, often crops up in discussions of the Middle East conflict. In fact, this problem is fairly recent and has specific causes which could be carefully addressed and perhaps permanently and successfully resolved, were the combatants given no support for anything save peaceful resolution and reconciliation.

    Indeed, I think it is likely that the movement in the US toward such a position, signaled by the publication of the Walt-Mearsheim paper and the more open discussion of the influence the Israel lobby has on US foreign policy, is part of what is driving this excessive aggression on Israel’s part in Lebanon. Bush cannot run again, so the current team in DC that has given almost total support to Israeli policies and actions in the occupied territories, will not be in place in a little over two years. The Iraq adventure has gone pretty thoroughly wrong, so the idea that Iraq would become the center of the Middle East bloc with subsequent amelioration of anti-US and anti-Israeli attitudes is a lost dream. In fact, the outcome of the invasion of Iraq has become the almost exact opposite: There is an increased radicalization of the populace coupled with a huge decrease in governmental stability within the region. Responding to the capture of the IDF soldiers by attacking Lebanon was a calculated decision on Israel’s part. So far, it seems the calculations were correct; world attention has been withdrawn from IDF actions in Gaza and there is little official criticism of Israel’s bombings in Lebanon.

    It is interesting that so many people seem to feel that attacking Syria and Iran as a sort of follow-up on this attack on Lebanon is both inevitable and necessary. It reminds me of the neoconservative ‘plan’ to take the success of Iraq onto Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia. The argument was that the spread of democracy was a given; we just needed to start the process. But the outcome of our deliberate invasion of Iraq has been the almost total destruction of the infrastructure needed to support the country and with the collapse of that, we have provided the fertile grounds for the rebirth of sectarian power struggles.

    Now I hear many Americans saying things like “they’ve been fighting each other forever” and “we should just let them kill each other” about Iraq and Iraqis. In this context, the subtext is not only that we should leave Iraq because there’s no fixing it but also that the fatal flaw pre-existed our inept ‘intervention’. Our abandonment of serious involvement in the Middle East conflict is analogous.

  36. #36 GaudiaRay
    July 16, 2006

    The observation that current conflict is madness really does miss the point.

    In the story of Abraham lie all the questions and all the answers. From the point of view of the Arabs, it is this: “That (Hajar) was your mother, O Bani Ma-is-Sama (i.e., the Arab, the descendants of Ishmael, Hajar’s son).” From the point of view of the Jews (and JudeoChristians), it is this: “God instructed the outcome; banishment and conscious disregard for the welfare of others.”

    When revere called us to think broadly and inclusively on this topic, many including myself, focused on the inflamatory event of the moment and avoid the initial question.

    I never cease to be amazed that in the Bible, this foundational ethical issue was raised, at all! Whatever was the factual outcome depicted, Hajar and Ishmael sent into the desert, for those who are not literal constructionists, the question remains, intensely emotional, without a black and white solution.

    Today’s argument & tommorrow’s will exist and be as painfully unsettling as the the first story.

    I never reached a conclusion but for compassion for both sides, often more for the shock and suffering to Hagar and Ishmael and all those claiming to be their descendents, all the Muslims; yet, as the die was cast and the outcome was as it was, the debate moved from what if to now what.

    I invite you to reflect again on the implications of this issue of literally Biblical proporations.

  37. #37 revere
    July 16, 2006

    BAW: There is a picture in that space (I guess your browswer isn’t showing it). It shows two twin towers of smoke, a black pair and a white pair, in two separate distinct areas. The pic is an actual pic from the IDF attack on the Beirut Airport, but it also symbolizes the situation: two mirror image twin towers of destruction.

    Aunt Deb: I agree with you completely. There is nothing “inherent” in this struggle. Germany and France have made peace after centuries of warfare. England and Spain made peace, after centuries of warfare. The extraordinarily bloody and vicious Thirty Years War ended in Europe between Protestants and Catholics. The Troubles in Northern Ireland are on their way to being resolved after almost 100 years. Israel has cordial relations with Germany and Russia. North and South no longer kill each other in the US. Shiites and Sunnis lived together before we stirred the pot in Iraq. The idea that this is insoluble is non-sense, and as you point out, politically expedient. The current insanity is a product of deliberate policy, not the impulse of the moment but planned in advance to meet some kind of mad strategic objective.

  38. #38 revere
    July 16, 2006

    Gaudia: Huh?

  39. #39 Dizzy
    July 16, 2006

    Gaudia, I read your post 3 times and thought it might as well be written in Hebrew for all I understood it. A bit like the conversation I had with my neighbour last night, who was speaking in tongues after smoking a big fat doober.

  40. #40 GaudiaRay
    July 17, 2006

    In case this gets missed, as I mentioned earlier, there is a single theme out of Israel, “Never Again.”

    Today, Olmert said it publicly, for those who dont understand the way Israel thinks, and who think that epidemiology trumps everything else. From Haaretz today,

    “Olmert said a cease-fire would first require the return of the two soldiers whose abduction sparked the current conflict, an end to Hezbollah rocket attacks and the deployment of the Lebanese army along the shared border.

    “Citizens of Israel, there are moments in the life of a nation when it becomes necessary to look at our present reality and say, no more.” he said.

    “I say to everyone: No more. Israel will not be held hostage to gangs of terror, to a terrorist government, or to a sovereign state,” he said.

    Now, as to epidemiological needs of the people in Lebanon and Palestine, first requirement is the ability to work with your Ass as that will be a primary source of transportation of your healants. Even though not noticeable, unlike in Egypt along the Nile, there are a lot of Asses in Lebanon and more in Palestine, and all of them need to be ridden. They can’t read and don’t wish to recognize the two words. They’re being emblazoned on the landscape so they can see them translated into a different form of communication.

    I don’t write Olmert’s speeches. I also don’t abide foolishness of bleeding hearts in the face of threats to life itself. Apologists need to apply for the newly opening epidemiological positions throughout that region…and they better rush to do so as the power is about to go out throughout that region; the infrastructure is destroyed and the work of survival will soon demand a torrent of attention.

  41. #41 GaudiaRay
    July 17, 2006

    OK, one more lesson for the unwashed.

    The entire dispute in the region turns on the Ishmael story out of the Bible. Moh’d claimed that he and all the Arabs are descendents of Ishmael. Ishmael was kicked out of Abraham’s household along with his mother, Hajar. It was a horrible action on the part of weak-willed Abraham. He first sleeps with Hajar, offers her the moon, in cooperation with Sarah, to get an heir, and then Sarah, shrew that she was, gets pregnant at a gazillioh years old, and tells her consort, Abe, to get rid of the first born kid and his mom.

    The orthodoxy on both sides know this story as well as you know your name.

    The Jews included this story in their Bible, which took serious guts to do so as it’s so fraught with ethics/moral issues. At the same time, it’s perceived as real by the two sides and the dispute festers thousands of years later in time, now.

    Got the lesson? Good boys. You can take the rest of the day to organize your epidemiology caravans into Lebanon and Palestine.

    IMO, those will be unwelcomed in any way other than how they’ve been Fagin-like received by the recipients in the recent past. As to me, I’ll just continue to focus on preparing for the dead who imo are on their way in droves when H5N1 comes to town.

    Need any more lessons?

  42. #42 LibraryLady
    July 17, 2006

    Everyone: I didn’t read all of the above posts, but I sensed a lot of angst when skimming the text. Just wanted to remind you that there is such a product as PhotoShop.

    I am not at all suggesting that Revere would do this, but someone else could and pass it on over the Internet. Regard all Internet, and for that matter, media photos as SUSPECT ENOUGH TO MODERATE YOUR EMOTIONAL RESPONSE TO THE PHOTO.

    The Chinese proverb “One picture is worth more than ten thousand words” should be changed to “Warning: the picture you see is the result of ten thousand mouse clicks.”

    Isn’t amazing how many “perfect” photos we see in the media every day? Perfectly composed, perfect lighting, perfect subject matter, perfect texture, color, mood. The technical adjustments provided by software are fully accepted by photojournalists who shoot digitally.

    Just be careful of your gut response to a photo. And be nice to each other.

  43. #43 tendrel
    July 17, 2006

    Wow, gee, so much animosity, so much anger.

    I saw the video on tv, so photoshop not much an issue for me. Be it real or not, similar was there for all to see in living color and night vision to boot.

    regardless of that, LibraryLady has a point, chill, be nice. I was somewhat appalled reading some of these comments. Are arguments becoming so common place here? Or is revere just letting more through? Anyway, I am all for freedom of speech, debate, etc, but please try to make sense, and please be nice.

  44. #44 bar
    July 17, 2006

    Guardia. To me, the Pentateuch is the construct of extremely advanced social engineers, so I expect it to contain insight into the human condition.

    Thank you for drawing my attention to Genesis 16 & 17 I used http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=16&version=31 &

    The curse of God (Genesis 16:14) on Ishmael is a fairly obvious modern day prognosis on the circumstances of Ishmael’s birth. It is not surprising that the effect has propogated through Ishmael’s descendants (i.e. the whole arab race) since that curse lies at the foundation of Islamic religious identity. It also partly explains the rivalry of Muslims for their siblings, the Jews.

  45. #45 tympanachus
    July 17, 2006

    Somebody needs to photoshop this thread. I’d like to blame it on GR but there seems to be a surfeit of braying asses.

  46. #46 revere
    July 17, 2006

    Photoshop?: Came straight from CNN’s website. Beirut airport. What’s unusual about it?

    Gaudia, bar, etc.: The bible is a book of fiction. Not even very good fiction. How do you decide what parts of it to say are “true” and which not? Or do you believe the world was literally created in 7 days? Are we talking literal interpretation of the bible here? Jeez.

  47. #47 GaudiaRay
    July 17, 2006

    Revere, that the Bible is or ain’t fiction ain’t the point. Millions of people have yes very irrationally formed opinions about what it says and what their relationship to it happens to be. And there are many who use their “understanding” of it to blast away at the opposition. We’re seeing it in Palestine and Lebanon. The Israeli’s, mostly Jews, were willing to stop things as they were at numerous points after the Balfour Declaration, but the bone still sticks in the Arab craw; so we get devastation as we see it today. When all is over, the “will” to think as they think will be there, but for those who reside in Lebanon and in Palestine/Gaza, life quality will have moved down many notches and access to services will have moved back in time by 50-100 years.

    Raising a call for humanity for one side and not the other, especially when the most recent skirmish involves the Palestinian and Lebanese goring the sleeping ox, imo was inappropriate on your part.

    That there is a need for epidemiologists is and was obvious. That it should be highlighted at this time while remaining silent as to the present violence was insensitive on your part.

    You have the ability to think very broadly here. There’s an opportunity for the biggest effort in the world to bring health care to two separate nation states, and the world’s richer countries will front the tab. So, planning now, on the biggest scale imagineable could and may well retire any who can think so broadly. Now that would be a noble issue to raise, but your timing was oh say a few trifles off.

  48. #48 revere
    July 17, 2006

    Gaudia: Why do you maintain I have asked for restaint from one side and not the other (that seems to be YOUR position, not mine).

    How about this: Israel gives up its 1967 conquests, the Palestinians give up their demand for the right of return, and Jerusalem becomes an international city. Why not?

  49. #49 bar
    July 17, 2006

    Revere: Ask Bill Clinton, but as I understand it, the Israelis accepted but Yasser refused almost exactly your proposition. Yasser would not concede the “right to return”.

    There are many sorts of fiction, ranging from Grimms to Shakespeare to the parables of Jesus.

    I consider the Pentateuch to be an artefact designed for the purpose of welding the Jewish people into a cultural entity. It’s constructor (lets call him Moses) was probably educated at a leading scientific institution that had specialized in developing social engineering techniques for control of the Pharo’s kingdom for a couple of millennia.

    The point is, it has succeeded. What Moses did not forsee was that his work would be adopted by other than the descendants of Isaac.

  50. #50 revere
    July 17, 2006

    bar: I do not believe you are correct. The settlement gave little to the Palestinians and much to Israel. It was a land issue. I think the formula I enunciated is the only workable one and is the one that eventually will be settled on as soon as the two sides have leaders who are not gangsters.

    I have no idea what you are talking about in the rest of your comment. You might as well be Speaking in Tongues.

  51. #51 GaudiaRay
    July 17, 2006

    I’m “in”, with one tiny tip of the hat to the reality of the huge number of settlers on the West Bank. Call it Palestinian land and issue a 100 year rental agreement, very typical in the US in places like Hawaii. Very kewl plan. Let’s go.
    Next year in Jerusalem!

  52. #52 mary in hawaii
    July 18, 2006

    GaudiaRay: you read Ha’aretz, so please take a look at the news article that was published in that paper the day after Hezbollah conducted their raid. Let me give you, and any one else, a couple of resources I found that really clarify things.
    First, in wikinews.org, it gives the unembellished timeline of what occured that day, and I quote: “Three Israeli soldiers died and eleven were wounded when army transports patrolling at the Israeli-Lebanese border were attacked on Wednesday morning….Hezbollah also fired mortars and long range rockets at the Israeli town of Shlomi and nearby communities. Six Israeli civilians were injured by the artillery fire. After the attack two soldiers were found to be missing. Israeli troops and tanks then entered southern Lebanon…Following the incursion, five more soldiers were killed, four of them when an Israeli tank hit a mine.”

    Okay, so that was the beginning. Not nice, not excusable, but what would have normally been considered a relatively small terrorist attack in an area where such stuff has been going on for decades. A summary before we read the next: Hezbollah terrorists killed 4 Israel soldiers and wounded 17 other people, 11 of them civilians. 4 more Israeli soldiers were killed when they crossed into Lebanese territory and hit a land mine.

    The next article is found at http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/737827.html

    It was written the day after the above raid, and describes the government’s response, decided within hours of the attack. I will offer a few select quotes, you can look up the rest.

    “In a sharp departure from Israel’s response to previous Hesbollah attacks, the…cabinet..unanimously agreed that the Lebanese government should be held responsible for yesterday’s events.” “Israel must act with appropriate severity….to prevent future efforts and actions directed against Israel.” “Hezbollah is likely to respond to the Israeli attacks with massive rocket launches at Israel….Residents of northern border communites have already been ordered into shelters…hundreds of thousands of Israelis will, for a short time, find themselves in danger from Hezbollah’s rockets.”

    and one quote I found most chilling of all:

    “Israel should send Lebanon’s infrastructure 30 years backward in response to the attack.”

    Gaudia, this is not some religious quest based upon ancient beliefs as you claim. No one in that Israeli cabinet said a thing about Ishmael. Nor is this, as they claim, merely necessary measures taken to defend themselves. This is coldblooded, premeditated murder, heartlessly waged to “teach a lesson” and destroy another country without the slightest compassion for innocent lives, even those of their own countrymen. It was calculatingly and ruthlessly decided as a course of action before anything other than that initial relatively small and inconsequential act of terrorism against a band of soldiers took place.

  53. #53 bar
    July 18, 2006

    Revere. This webpage lends support my version of events.

    http://www.jewishreview.org/Archives/Article.php?Article=2004-07-01-767

  54. #54 Roman Werpachowski
    July 18, 2006

    Nor is this, as they claim, merely necessary measures taken to defend themselves. This is coldblooded, premeditated murder, heartlessly waged to “teach a lesson” and destroy another country without the slightest compassion for innocent lives, even those of their own countrymen.

    If you use soldiers to defend yourself, you kill people. How can it be otherwise?

  55. #55 Gaud
    July 18, 2006

    Mary,
    The game’s over. It should not have been played. Hizb’allah played with matches. They provoked the sleeping giant and that giant is going to kill them all, every single one of those who say, “I’m hizb’allah.” This is not a joke. The game is over. “Never Again” is the rallying call.

    You’re foolish to think that even a single unprovoked attack is entitled to a measured response. That’s ludicrous. And therein lies your need to defend the indefensible.

    The fools who killed people will now be obliterated from the face of the earth. Your asking for less is beyond incapacity to understand and respect the value of life. This is not “an eye for an eye”. This is “never again”, and it will as I wrote at first in a revere posting below, heading for a scorched earth policy, the Sherman approach. Even at this moment, it can be stopped. The Israelis said, “hand back the soldiers”. For the Hizb’allah to do this is to sound their death knell. They will be obliterated politically either way. All this talk about an international force? It’s hogwash. The matter is now being settled. You read 1 km of a dead zone. The Lebanese Army and government remain spineless and will do so. After there’s nothing left, and I expect it really to be nothing, then it won’t matter who comes in and does what. The reality is that nobody from Lebanon will kick sand in the eye of this one eyed country. Jordan doesn’t. Egypt doesn’t. They each have full economic lives. And there are plenty of Palestinians in each of those countries.

    Your compassion should be spent on organizing the epidemiologists who can ride camels and asses and getting them packed and ready for their lifetime callings.

    The blame is on Hizb’allah and Hamas. And the blame will not leave until they are each obliterated. I will be shocked to see anything less.

    What next happens in Iran, not Syria, is of great interest and import. The epidemiologists you’re sending to Lebanon may need Iodine and radiation suits too. The next game is to terminate that matter. Syria will devolve into whatever it will devolve into; it has zero political importance, IMO other than as a stepping stone to the world’s biggest problem, Islamic funadementalist Iran.

  56. #56 revere
    July 19, 2006

    Gaudia: You are as foolish to think this will succeed any more than the overwhelming power of the US military will take out the “insurgents” in Iraq. The Israelis will do what they have always done, manufacture more resistance, not just Hesbollah but Lebanese and other Shiites as well. They will become bogged down in Lebanon again just as Sharon was and for the same reasons. Many innocent people will be killed, for nothing. We will be back to square one.

  57. #57 GaudiaRay
    July 20, 2006

    Call me foolish. Heck, call me Ishmael too. If you want to cast me out, thats kewl.

    Unless you address the irrationality of the Islamic position, offering any rational kindness is ridiculous. The foolish are the EU members who shovelled boatloads of money into Palestine and have what to show? Nuthin, or a now destroyed building or two.

    Isnt there a parable about a fish and feeding people? Maybe the epidemiologists and their asses can teach it to the Palestinians?

    Meanwhile, the head of Hizb allah has just welcomed your epidemiological services with this cute phrase, cited from our friends over at Jerusalem Post, “Hizbullah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah said on Thursday night that the two Arab children who were killed by a Katyusha rocket in Nazareth on Wednesday were “martyrs for the Palestinian cause.”

    “Nasralla offered his condolences to the family of the two brothers in an interview with Al-Jazeera television.”
    http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153291962326&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

    You gotta stop asking for epidemiologist to serve over there and get down to the irrationality of their thinking. Until you address this, I’ll continue to support your riding your Ass over there in epidemiological service to the populace who are waiting for you too to serve.

  58. #59 abdellah essayid
    June 12, 2007

    bonsoir israiel salutation avous je passe mon bonjour atoute larab les amazegh israeilian.. abdellah .essaouira sud du maroc maroc maroc