Death sentence in Tripoli 6 trial

I just posted about this too. I really wish that there was more that I could do. This is such bullshit!

If the sentence is carried out without international sanctions occurring as a result, this will embolden crazy dictators around the world to blame international health workers for the health disasters caused by their own regimes.

Thus there is really only one solution: for international health workers to leave these countries altogether, and let these regimes deal with their own health problems until or unless a greater measure of protection for those health care workers is forthcoming.

As for the innocent civilians who suffer for lack of health care in the world's numerous nutcase dictatorships, the fact is that anywhere the volunteers go, they are not going somewhere else. Until there is real social and humanitarian justice on a global scale, someone will always be lacking for health care.

It's not as if the world's democracies and "rational" authoritarian regimes don't have health crises of their own, impoverished peoples of their own, and need for volunteer health care workers.

The need globally is always going to be far greater than the number of available volunteers. They can do more good, for more people, over a longer span of time, by going to the places where they will not be imprisoned, tortured, show-trialed, and executed to cover up the local regime's own shortcomings. And there is nothing cowardly about choosing to volunteer in a place where you won't come to an agonizing end for having given all you can give.

So they got the death sentence again, and yet another appeal. These guys just dont get it. The consequences of a firing squad or hanging are going to weigh heavy on them. Their mental health after this amount of time has to be at its limits. They would confess to the Kennedy killing if you pushed them hard enough. They want money? Well lets see the first guy to pay for hostages was Carter. Thanks Jimmy for negotiating with terrorists. This is State sponsored terrorism again and the price tag just went up a bit is all. Mo G. and company are just going to have to make a decision or two.

Bulgarian Foreign Minister Berbatov is in Tripoli right now. The sentence has been handed down. The Bulgs are royally pissed and they first dont have the money to pay for them and second there was a huge rally yesterday in Sofia. Their politico's are feeling the heat. The meeting that is going on is quite high level and that decision or two is going to come to pass. First-Mo. G. has to decide whether to give up the money that he is never going to see and certainly not those families of so called HIV infectee's, second is the NATO thing.

Even though based in Sharia law, and we are to respect the laws of each country there is a time when you call bullshit just that. If Bulgaria makes a move for support in NATO to get them out then Mo G. has only two options. Bulgaria has a very good military but no way to deliver them, they could ask for and likely get support as this would be the first test of NATO for its junior members. Mo. G's decisions are also going to be predicated on feeling the heat. That heat should have been turned up years ago.He SHOULD have released them years ago, but now there is a noise and its getting louder. That noise is coming out of a NATO member. I would be damned careful Mo, because one mistep here could trigger WWIV.

US intervention? Maybe. One carrier group could decimate the entire Libyan military in under a week. JOINT services capability of a couple of Aegis Class Cruisers and the Italians/Brits/French would destroy it in a day. Mo G. already knows not to tangle with F-14's. He hasnt tested the F-18's yet. One can only hope that diplomacy will work and that they will be released under the order of the "President" of Libya. Mo G. is being seen as weak right now so this gives him an opportunity to hit the main stage-again. Will he do it? Six years is a long time.

The US has a decision to make. Do we do the politically correct thing again and sit back and continue this degradation of our influence? Or do we acknowledge the problem and do something about it?. Doing nothing emboldens them to do "whats next." There has to be a global chief and we are failing in that mission here and this coordinates well with the invasion of Iraq.

There is no difference now than when Carter paid for our hostages in Teheran, we should have mobilized three divisions and gone in there to get them. We were great once, time to be great again. So the lefties/righties should just TELL Mo. G. thru channels to give them back and quit fooling around. The Med is our lake, the Russians cant do shit and by damn when the people that are rescuers are attacked thats when you pop the snot out of them. The suggestion should be done quietly and thru channels. It gives Mo G. the spotlight he wants. Otherwise, give him the Dresden raid.

This was going to happen. And so was the blackmail.

Libya needs to be isolated as completely if they were a country of smallpox carriers. Otherwise, this gambit will simply be repeated, if not in Libya then somewhere else. The world is entirely too full of tinhorn dictatorships where the ruling elites are both fond of money, and in the habit of looking for scapegoats whenever they drop the ball.

I have to disagree with Randolph K about military options. First of all we don't have the forces needed for a successful operation in Libya. Second, going in there with force will only make Khaddafi a hero in the eyes of his people, particularly the barbarians who were demanding "revenge" against the doctors. BTW, it was Reagan's campaign advance team who offered arms to Iran for the hostages, while Carter was in office, in the event Reagan was elected, and sure enough the hostages were released on inauguration day. That's "treating with a hostile foreign power" and constitutes treason. Let's not digress the topic any further over that.

On the other hand, Charles' R's proposal, "isolate Libya as if they were smallpox carriers," is right on the mark. No more health care assistance, no more foreign aid, travel, commerce, nothing (as for Libyan oil, let's start building nuclear reactors and wind farms, and tell all those regimes to go to hell). As a practical matter this will do more harm to Khaddafi's regime and send a clear signal to other nutcase dictators. And as I said, it's time to pull all the volunteer health workers out of the rest of the world's nutcase regimes, ASAP.

After finally being let off the hook over the Lockerby Bombing they once again show their true colours.
What a bunch of luddites and or conniving crooks.
Polonium may be what is required for the Libyan leadership if these poor pawns are done away with. Bulgaria has shown expertise for covert hits during the depths of the cold war. Perhaps their expertise will be needed again if the Libyans become pariahs again.
God help those nurses.
Glenn

You better start planning that invasion of Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, Texas, and Iran to free those that are on death row there without having had a fair trial. Good luck.

Glenn, I think that I probably am in agreement with the Reveres here: God is off shift on this one.

The only thing we can do for those poor wretches is to make a very public and ghastly example of the country that betrayed their trust and good hearts, to their torture and death.

In another 20 years, Libya will be gone as a nation-state, simply by consequence of an airtight cordon sanitaire.

And the next thug who gets a brainwave will have something to ponder upon, before he commits to action.

G-Incorrect. Carter paid 6 billion in cash for them and it was televised live from Algeria and it was on AFTV to boot.

"On Jan. 20, 1981, the day of President Reagan's inauguration, the United States released almost $8 billion in Iranian assets and the hostages were freed after 444 days in Iranian detention; the agreement gave Iran immunity from lawsuits arising from the incident"

Six billion were in cash and a chunk of it was also in the Bank of England. We if you are old enough to remember had to borrow 8 bil conveniently just before this from the Germans. Reagan wasnt inaugurated until almost the exact minute of the release in Algeria.

In addition G there are plenty of troops to go to Libya. Just dont want to have to play as nice as we are in Iraq and it would be a NATO response as required by the pact. No go it alone here and we wouldnt be going in to win the hearts and minds. This would be war, fast and furious. In all likelyhood though Mo. G. is going to see the light and Bulgaria is already starting to make overtures in the EU about a possible military action. Hate to see it but you know fear is one of the greatest deterrents in the world. The noise alone should be enough to scare the daylights out of them.

Charles is right that they will cease to exist in 20 years but I dont think that will make the Bulgarians happy if their people are dead. There was a HUGE rally yesterday in Sofia and a lot of editorials in the paper. They have the bit in their teeth and this horse is about to run. Nothing would make the administration happier than to go to bat for a member nation and have suddenly all the support of the member nations. We also if I can reimind you isolated Iraq for 10 years and the French and Germans were back dooring stuff in there right and left. It wont get them released and neither will military action. One thing is sure though they will think twice before snagging people. Destroy the country and just for a change leave it in a shambles and let them know what NOT having foreign aid translates to. No more dead doctors without borders, nuns, nurses etc. Just whack 'em as you would a mad dog.

Mo G. and Libya will cease to exist in 20 minutes after a combi cruise, stealth, naval attack. Someone else will come by and rebuild what they need to start pumping oil again and then the cycle starts...again.

Pop them up side the head by threatening to take out a military facility if they set an execution date. Then take out the Presidential palace and everything else if they do execute them. Sure they might kill them, but they are going to kill them anyway. Why am I advocating this?Dipomacy has had zero effect. time to try or threaten to try something else. If they were guilty I wouldnt be saying a thing, but this one is pure bullshit and everyone knows it. It has come full circle and the military card is back out onto the table. Everything else is trumped.

I was only voting for my first time, but I remember.
If Carter had done it, he would have scheduled it to take place before the election; that's why I believe the Reagan/Bush cronies arranged it; "On Jan. 20, 1981, the day of President Reagan's inauguration," -perhaps they would have been released right after Carter lost the election, but, then the public would have given him credit for the hostage release happening on Carter's watch, so perhaps they were told to wait until Reagan was Pres.

(Sort of wish M.R.K. could go sneak those hcws out of there.)

Look Revere would be the first to say that he wouldnt want anyone "the innocents" hurt. Thousand pounders dont discriminate and I do not like to break things. But I am along with a bunch of guys I know damned good at it. A lot of noise across the last near 20 years that you heard about was from stuff that was happening when I and others were around. Not allowed to say anymore than that. Lots of LT's that are now generals because of my fine handiwork. Be advised I mean killing on a high order of destruction. Tried always not to cause collaterals but they do happen. That might happen here. Baby out with the bath water.

In light of current events I have no option other than the military one and that might push them back into diplomacy to get them released. Military guys like to sit around, shoot pool, drink beer and chase girls. Kind of like Clinton...just kidding, just kidding. My read on this though is that we are likely to end up with a Pres next round out that never came anywhere near a uniform. Hilary is widely reviled in the military and so is Billy Boy. We got hit and hit and hit during their tenure and he got a pass each and every time. If a beam had failed in the towers then he would have had the WTC on his hands, not Bush.

None of these guys know how to kill and the one time Clinton did he bombed Belgrade and lobbed 30 cruise missiles at Afganistan and missed Osama. He did kill 300 collaterals there. As a result there is an automatic move to diplomacy as there should be on the parts of these kinds of people rather than the guns. Fine, I'd rather shoot pool than people. But there has been a lack of willingness to use the military and we are widely becoming regarded as paper tigers. So when this kind of shit happens and the opportunity comes to make a point, we dont. Then as an end result you get another Pearl Harbor or something like it. Not a WTC but Pearl. Pacifism and appeasement are not just lines. Each time we dont hard line someone like the Ruskies we got our asses handed back to us. When little pukes like this all mount up and get support from say China, we have a problem. That problem is going to get bigger and bigger. Time to send a large message even though they are not our nationals, they are NATO nationals and that should be good enough to kick the shit out of them. The Pan Am shootdown was enough as far as I was concerned to take "shores of Tripoli" out of the Marine Corps Hymn, because it would no longer be there if I was in charge. Dead Bulgarians and Palestinians should be enough this time. Time to protect the innocents by going over the wall rather than walking it.

A technical state of war could exist the second they shoot them. I and others become necessary evils at the time they do.

CR-point of history. The were technically released on Carters watch and I mean within minutes of Reagan taking office. I cant officially tell you what he was going to do but you wouldnt have had to worry about Iranians taking hostages aftewards.

In 2004, Lybia offered to let the Tripoli 6 go against payment, for a tremendous sum which corresponds to what Lybia paid in reparation for Lockerbie, 10 million usd per victim. Bulgaria refused. Don't know if the Pals responded.

Lockerbie (1988; verdict 91; sanctions 92, negotiations --> 2003), under the assumption of Lybia's guilt, contested in many quarters (1) is generally interpreted as revenge for the unprovoked attacks of 1986 (Reagan), one of which targeted Gaddafi's home and killed 60 + (?, Operation El Dorado Canyon) including G's daughter.

G was within his legal rights to refuse extradition of the two accused to any other country. (As far as I understand or remember.)

The deadlock was broken by Prince Bandar and Mandela, in the main. One of the accused was finally convicted, the other freed.

Then USuk moved the goal posts and demanded financial reparations.

Did Saudi Arabia pay reparations to the victims of 9/11? No, the US did that itself.

The story of the Tripoli 6 is utterly disgusting. But some of the posts here are too one-sided; to be able to do anything for them requires a more subtle understanding of Gaddafi, Lybia's position, history, etc. Brow beating will accomplish nothing. Maybe Mandela, again ?

1. For example, in January 2003 Lybia was elected chairman of the UN Commission on Human Rights, with only 3 votes against it. Of course, there are different ways of interpreting that...

G510, As far as I understand it from news reading only so ?, the 6 were not 'international health workers' or 'volunteers' in the sense that they were funded or supported by any organism outside Lybia. They were, and are, immigrants, who went to Lybia for the attractive pay. Nurses don't earn much in Bulgaria, and often leave.

The dreadful news of the verdict was THE biggest news story here in France yesterday and public opinion is very passionate here in Europe. Both the EU and France loudly deplored the verdict. The new 24 hr, 7/7 CNN type news channel named France 24 (In English and in French) had a long round table discussion during prime time - more than 1/2 hour, with a live link to the President of Lawyers Without Borders in Tripoli, Francois Cantier, and in the studio Francis Perrin of Amnesty International and also a highly qualified expert in Libyian affairs. They all continue to have hope, albeit guarded. It is much more a political issue than judicial now - according to these experts, Khadafi is well aware of the high stake significance on the international level for this story and now that perhaps the Bengazi faction has been temporarily appeased, some progress can be made on the polital side. It will be appealed to the Supreme Counsel on Judicial Matters. If you will recall, they had initially been charged with spying for the US and Israel and those charges were just dropped altogether by Khadafi. He has the power - it is up to the international community to keep the pressure building so that the balance between the forces in Bengazi that hate Khadafi and the ramifications for him on the international scene tip the balance from interior to international which is the only way there could be a favorable outcome. The people there are kept in such ignorance of what is goiing on in the outside world, but the experts agree that that is beginning to change. Will enough of the truth filter through? There are a lot of NGO's working to make this happen. Yesterday I was heartened to see just how many people are working with great passion for this cause. It's not over yet. But those poor souls will spend a lot more time in jail, alas.

g510: You are correct. They were contractors. They are still internaitonal health workers, however, although not volunteers. Most of us who work in publichealth also look for jobs where we can get paid and we try to do good at the same time. But it wouldn't make much difference if these were Libyan health care workers as far as we are concerned.

O'Leary: I'm glad to know it is getting press in France (and I hope elsewhere in the EU). it is ot getting much play here, although the verdict and bit of background did play on NPR PBS last night on the Newshour. It appears the US gov't is "not taking sides." Another abrogation of leadership and evidence of moral bankruptcy.

O'Leary: the verdict of the Tripoli Six was a medium large article at the front page of NRC, a well-read newspaper in The Netherlands, to my surprise.
I do agree there should be done something in order to let Mo G know this should be the last time justice and medical knowledge can be abused in such a horrifying way, and not let him gain power to do whatever he his crooked mind will generate for the future.
I hope the Tripoli Six will get the continued attention and the pressure will be kept up and we will keep doing our utmost best to activate our governments and support the international organizations to release those nurses and the doctor.

O'Leary-Okay so your point is that its okay to round up doctors and nurses that are there under any status and blame them for the poor healthcare system in a country. Its a non sequitur.

Ana-The US didnt pay reparatons to anyone. That was all donated money. Federal law prohibits that. They did take control of the money after the US American Red Cross under the tutelage of Dr. Pat Healy decided that they were going to make token payments after 1 billion dollars had been collected . That meant even from little Bangladesh who ponied up 25,000 bucks. I bet it was all they had, but give they did. In any event the US government had passed a law befoe the WTC' that had originally been intended to give the Red Cross semi-public entity status. What we got was a burgeoning bureacracy and no money showing up on the fields of disaster. That also allowed the government to take control of the money and then disburse it accordingly. All of those people who had families got about 1-3 million apiece. Invested wisely, it will be worth 25-30 million in another 10 years.

"After several days of diplomatic talks with European and Arab partners, President Ronald Reagan ordered the strike on Libya on April 14. F-111 aircraft flying from 48th Tactical Fighter Wing, RAF Lakenheath and 20th Tactical Fighter Wing, RAF Upper Heyford in England, along with A-6, A-7, and F/A-18 planes from the aircraft carriers USS America, USS Coral Sea and USS Saratoga struck five targets at 02:00 on April 15, in the hope that their destruction would send a message and reduce Libya's ability to support and train terrorists. The United States was denied overflight rights by France and Spain as well as the use of European continental bases, forcing the operation to be flown around France and through the Straits of Gibraltar, adding 1,300 miles (2,100 km) each way and requiring multiple aerial refuelings. The attack lasted about ten minutes. Several targets were hit and destroyed, but some civilian and diplomatic sites in Tripoli were struck as well, notably the French embassy, when a number of bombs missed their intended targets." USAF historical account.

I loved the part about the French embassy taking a shot....Accident? 5 bombs and missiles "missed" their targets. Those misses by the by were by only 18 feet except for one that was hit by triple-A.

The attack against Libya was the result of the bombing of a disco in Germany where US citizens and a Turk were killed. NATO MEMBER nationals. If you catch my drift here the precedent is set. Bulgaria is a member of NATO. Regardless of Lockerbie, Abu Nidal was being funded by Mo. G. and friends. The idea that is offered up here is that Mo. G. I think was justified in retailiation to hit Pan Am. Uh-huh. What if he had used a nuke on say, Bonn or Amsterdam? Non sequitur.

Randy: I don't understand your comment to O'Leary. O'Leary didn't say what you allege but made the perfectly sensible (and my sources tell me) correct observation that there are multiple forces on Gadaffi and that increasing the external international ones will be an important part of overcoming the internal ones howling for blood.

A military solution to this is out of the question. The cost would be great on too many dimensions and it wouldn't work anyway. And note that the US is "not taking sides" so there is no inclination to even use diplomatic muscle, much less military force (which would violate international law, not that they care, but you say you believe in the rule of law).

The Reagan attack on Libya was stupid and gained nothing but killing some innocent people, including Gaddafi's infant daughter, as I recall.

Sorry Revere, it was more directed at Ana's comment than O'Learys. The point of this was that regardless of what the outcome is, that we are becoming more and more regarded as paper tigers. What would the response have been if they had been able to prove that Mo. G. was responsible for Lockerbie during Reagans term? Tripoli indeed might have been gone. Ana's comment that Mo. G. was justified in not turning over his two henchmen just made the statement for me. At what point in time do we pull out the clubs? My assertion is simple, just use them often and at the place and time of our choosing. Do it as hard and as measured as possible when doing it of course but use it and without political correctness. I have said it before many times, dead terrorists dont shoot at you. Mo. G. doesnt blow up planes if he is dead and if they attack the one saving grace on this planet which are relief and healthcare workers who are the biggest namby-pambies there are, then who wont they attack?

Put an aircraft carrier off the coast or a cruiser or two if they set an execution date. Use them if they kill them. Eye for an eye they have down to a fine science over there. Fear of what would happen will at least keep them alive. Better yet, if Mo. G. is smart he will just let them go and he has the power to do so.

Ana-Libya is nothing but a terrorist run state running terrorist training camps. This gives them cover to continue. The EU is for once taking a hard stance and I do hope indeed that they see the light. If not, I am open to whatever cards can be played. Else its time to knock another one over and start the cycle again. Little wars rather than big ones.

I agree wholeheartedly with Kruger but feel the response should be a European one. A French or British aircraft carrier with other EU ships.
This should be more regional than Nato. "If our EU citizens are wrongly punished we punish you."
The US and Canada being involved spreads the message the enemy love to use.
Could someone please tell me the gender of those poor folks?
BTW nothing about this situation has hit the news in New Zealand that I have seen.
Glenn

There was another Prime Time - One hour long TV discussion on the French German Channel Arte yesterday. Germany has very strongly deplored the verdict which is quite important because soon Germany will take its turn to lead the EU..

Also, a ray of hope regarding the negotiations. Khadafi's son recently stated publicly that this trial had to run its course and then the "real negotiating" would start. I did sense a certain optimism from the panel, which was made up of the lawyers working on the case, European Medical specialists in Aids that are involved and a representative of the French diplomatic mission..

It is rather appalling to me to think that there are calls for military action in this blog. U.S. diplomacy is so weak and there is such incredible ignorance of what is happening in the world lately. Revere is right - Khadafi's daughter was killed in the Reagon bombings.. If I was Khadafi I might harbor a little ill will after that.

The Bush administration "regretted" the verdict the other day. Boy, them there are strong words indeed! Because of the financial ties with Libya that the US now has, the US, more than the EU, could bring pressure to bear. Perhaps they will? But in the meantime the EU and all the countries involved will be very militant about this. One must not forget that Bulgaria will be a new EU member very shortly.

Kruger - you just can't eliminate ignorance and propaganda inspired hate with bombs. I disagree that America is seen as a paper tiger. From this side of the Atlantic America is seen as a powerful dangerous country that does not recognize the International World Court, runs rough shod over the United Nations, doesn't want to sign on to the Kyoto treaty, gives unconditional support to Israel in spite of 70 UN resolutions against Israel...need I continue? Paper Tiger no way. The US diplomacy is all too real and all too heavy handed.

Perhaps some of the ill will towards America in the last few years comes from the fact that people all around the world have always loved the US and looked to it as a beacon of freedom, democracy and hope. And it is like a love affair gone bad with bitter disappointment that that great nation is now percieved as an egotistical bully.

Randy: If you tried to do the same thing in the US -- vigilante tactics -- you would be arrested, convicted and jailed for a long time (at least I hope you would). That's called the rule of law, and it applies internationally as well as in Tennessee. Once you get on the slippery slope of assassinating leaders because they do things you don't like, then no one is safe. Needless to say, more than half the world also feels Bush is a terrorist. The only thing that prevents them from doing a Randy is they don't have the guns and we do. What kind of world is that? Someday they will have the guns and we won't. That's called History. We can hope the world will still be semi-lawful when that happens.

O'Leary: Hear, hear. Wells said and my sentiments. Exactly.

Well lets see. WTC's were done by some people who didnt care whether they lived or died. I could arrange the latter and several million of their friends. I would suggest it now rather than later. The IWC is for people who follow the law so we have tried that. Blowing up airplanes is an act of war, no a violation of the law. So we waited and waited. For our immediate purposes the end result is going to be a dead group of nurses and a doctor. What do we say as NATO member states to a pissant country like Libya? Hey, uh, want to reconsider the facts that you are undeniably wrong? What will work with these guys? Harsh language... yeah that worked.

Listen, dead people dont shoot at you. I am sorry we didnt get Mo. G. in the raid and I would happily line his family up now for an CAR-15 introduction. I am sure he was tipped by the French. Now there's a group that are violating UN Resolutions... Seen the Saddam connection? Israel is Israel and those resolutons are a result of them defending their national interests O'Leary. Just as we are about to have to do again. Dont wave that one in front of me. I havent seen any Israelis blowing up school and public transportation buses. I have seen them drop bombs and shells into a war zone and thats a causal collateral. Cant tell what you are going to get except by general attrition. 70 resolutions for defending yourself...Kind of like out little Democrats, lets blame ourselves rather than getting the guts together to go and do the unthinkable and that is total elimination of a country and I ant talking nukes. Iran would be first on my list, N. Korea second, Libya could take a front seat if they kill those people.

The is no question my friends that this a dangerous world we live in. For the life of me I cant seem to get it thru anyones head that the war is ON, and when at war Revere you toss the law and pull out your knife and gut as many as you can, if you can. The parallels to 1930's era Germany are astounding. Peace at any cost resulted in war at the cost of millions. Little was for little countries.

As for the UN, ICW, Kyoto we are starting to have to step outside of these little bodies with pre-set agenda's to protect our interests. Even Japan is starting to rattle sabers in their interests and talking nukes and a tactical strike weapon in response to Korea. What started this? It surely wasnt the Kyoto Accords that we refuse to sign that would ensure the death knell for our economy. You know that one that China doesnt have to comply with for forty years. Its not because we were out there doing something to Mo. G.. I do believe it was a NATO action or bringing down planes, blowing up buildings, and threatening ships in the Meditteranean. The long term to this is that its long term and we ARE going to war with Iran in very short order. The national interests of this country and really the free world as we know it are in our hands and to a more limited view, those of the EU. Fail in this and you will see radical Muslims (note radical) spread like wildfire.

Forget those world bodies O'Leary, they are as corrupt as the US government ever was. Rank amateurs in my eyes. They are world law producers and they are prolific. You have to have a sheriff and this one we dont get to vote on. Want the Ruskies or Chinese in charge?