More stupidity from Indon's Supari

Yes, we already knew that, but it would be great if some leaders gave her an earful at the APEC gabfest here in Sydney,(that's Sidney to you Yanks...nevermind, it's a local joke) regarding the lack of sharing of H5N1 sequences. We can but hope...sigh.

I read a media piece that was not widely circulated that Australia has agreed to cough up more money to help APEC neighbours to fight bird flu, to the tune of $A650 million. Seems like alot to me, but if true there should be a quid pro quo to Indonesia to share the data.

Are you listening Tony Abbott? (Federal Minister for Health)

Hmmm, did the WHO know "that the Indonesian Ministry of Health is not a credible source of information or a competent public health authority" when she was elected one of the five Vice-Presidents of the World Health Assembly in 2006? Or unanimously elected a member of the WHO executive board in 2007?

http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/news/stories/s1927629.htm

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-08/01/content_6463219.htm

Sorry, neglected to include the link to the article. I remembered it wrong on the amount too, it's $850 million Oz bucks , not $650 million.

I wonder how many Aussies know that for the money we give Indonesia, they are putting the population of Australia, not to mention the whole world, at greater risk. Like it isn't bad enough already?

Monotreme, nice rhetorical question you posed !

Just to let you know, I used your opinion piece " A Very Severe Pandemic is Likely" last week in a meeting with health officials here, to good effect I might add. It is SUCH a thought provoking piece of writing. Thanks. And you are right, there are public health officials who have not thought through the fundamental issues. Scary.

For those that havn't read it, please do.

http://web.mac.com/monotreme1/iWeb/Pandemic%20Influenza%20Information/O…

Mono-They certainly understand the meaning of extortion. They will hold on until they get it hard having stolen all the money they can, and gotten whatever positions they can and then, they'll demand more to keep it from spreading.

Revere/Tom DVM-Once again the Vietnamese are going to vaccinate their poultry for H5N1 with off antigen vaccine. As I understand it this will be beefed up H3N2 vax again. These are the same bozo's that along with the Burmese have been feeding expiring date Tamiflu to their birds. And we wonder why its endemic there now......

Either one of you have an open opinion about that little adventure?

Webster had an opinion two years ago about BF and the Asian versions of vaccine and it was, "If their vaccines are so good, then why are we still seeing so much flu?"

Doesnt monkeying around with this beefed up basically human vaccine throw down the genetic patterns to get to us without H2H transmission first? If so doesnt it lay the ground work for overcoming our seasonal flu vax too?

I see its going to be 200 million doses and I cant even see how they could keep it from mutating before the last dose was done much less from the off antigen stuff. Some thoughts please

Grow up, guys. This is Realpolitik, played in the same way all institutions play it. Musharraf and al Mailiki extort payments from the US, etc., etc. We are all players in this and this post is part of the play.

Supari is in fact a popular NUT in the far east.

Health Minister Supari is one of the more bizarre players in Indonesia's (fortunately) unsuccessful Through The Looking Glass propaganda efforts.

Just last week, her boss, Indon President Yudhoyono mandated what the Jakarta Post called an international "charm offensive." At a meeting of government public relations officials in Bali, he said:

"The international community still looks upon Indonesia as a lawless and unsafe country with mass riots and even terrorism stirring everywhere... They think Indonesia is an undemocratic nation where rights violations prevail -- a corrupt nation that lacks the will to eradicate corruption. These images are not factual and are baseless."

According to the Post,

"Yidhoyono ordered all state officials to help restore Indonesia's image through better public relations to narrow the gap between the nation's poor image and its more positive reality," and "also reiterated his commitment to freedom of the press, but stressed that free speech must be guided by strict law enforcement to avoid negative excesses."

While I doubt that Minister Supari is capable of intentionally aligning her statements to Yudhoyono's goals, she seems to do this pretty well at times.

Fortunately, there are international officials out there who are good at "speaking between the lines" about these matters without causing complete rifts with apparently insane government officials. (Partial rifts -- yes.)

Regarding limited human-to-human transmission in the Karo cluster, Dr Alan Hampson, a member of the World Health Organization's (WHO) Pandemic Taskforce, told ABC Australia:

"This [Longini] study has looked at the dynamics of the spread of the virus in the family environment in Sumatra and has come down with the conclusion that it clearly does show person-to-person transmission... We had already believed that that was probably the case and we haven't had confirmation through analysis of the viruses... The information relating to those viruses is information that's held in Indonesia, so we haven't seen that, but what we do believe, from people who have seen the information, is that that too indicated that it was person-to-person spread and that the virus was changing as it spread from one person to another, as we would expect it to do." (August 31, 2007, www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/08/31/2021231.htm)

p.s. Monotreme asked: >did the WHO know "that the Indonesian Ministry of Health is not a credible source of information or a competent public health authority" when she was elected one of the five Vice-Presidents of the World Health Assembly in 2006? Or unanimously elected a member of the WHO executive board in 2007?<

Yes, they did. Her lack of credibility is impossible to miss.

Regarding the quotes from Indonesian President Yudhoyono in my post above:

The article is no longer available on the Jakarta Post website, but the Indonesian Embassy in Washington D.C. reprinted it, at: http://tinyurl.com/263y3v

Bird flu could have become worldwide pandemic: study
By Jeff Waters
Longini says this shows there is a serious threat of a bird flu pandemic.
"It could happen and will happen eventually, and this simply confirms this
particular H5N1 virus is capable of person-to-person transmission," he said.
"The other thing it says is that we need to be very vigilant to find these clusters, to assess
whether there's transmission and to stop transmission as quickly as we can each time they arise.
"We're going to see strains of influenza that are capable of causing pandemics arising,
probably avian strains, and that will happen for sure, there's no doubt about it."
Fast-moving disease
Professor Longini says in this case, a pandemic may have been averted because of the
quick action of health authorities or, statistically at least, it could have been luck.

------------------------------------------------

now, what about revere's ebola example ?
Lots of diseases go h2h without causing pandemics.

When you hear Longini here, you can see how Subari arrived at her statement.

Longini's "could" , is it of same magnitude as Webster's in "half of mankind could die" ?

as for "that will happen for sure" see here:
http://www.psandman.com/CIDRAP/CIDRAP6.htm

Randolph.

If you want to eradicate...don't vaccinate!!

In my opinion,influenza vaccine doesn't work for good reason..genetic instability...at the very best, protecting 5% of those vaccinated...and I'm not too sure of even that.

If I am right, then every vaccine that is used presents an opportunity for the virus...pushing and directing adaption to mammals...inadvertently bringing us one step closer to pandemic potential transmissibility.

Monotreme was the first to explain that there is a real likelyhood that such a pandemic could have excruciating CFR's.

I am not saying that it is impossible to produce an effective vaccine, I am saying that the primitive vaccines and antivirals we are currently using are counter-productive...

...and the odds of having effective antivirals or vaccines for the next pandemic are zero...that is why we must concentrate efforts on basic research into new vaccines and antivirals...infrastructure, food and proven treatments for H5N1 and sequelae...including pneumovax-like vaccines for secondary bacterial pneumonias that also work.

I think we already have the tools to minimize the losses from a pandemic virus...however, unfortunately, if the status quo remains in effect...we will not only have no healthcare, we will have no antibiotics etc.

They seem to be gambling that a pandemic isn't going to happen...I hope they are right...because there is no fallback position.

Thanks RobT, glad my essay of some use to you.

revere, I must say I was taken aback by your admonition to:

"Grow up, guys. This is Realpolitik, played in the same way all institutions play it. Musharraf and al Mailiki extort payments from the US, etc., etc. We are all players in this and this post is part of the play."

Personally, I don't believe Realpoltik is ethical and try not to practice it myself. Although I can understand why you are cynical, I think the answer is beating those who practice Realpoltik, not joining them. Perhaps I am naive, but I think the internet can be used to shine a light on unethical practices and can be used to facilitate transparency.

Thanks Tom-You have backed up my doc drinking buddy's position. He said that vaccination as a rule was like screwing for chastity with the vaccines we have now. He said that if indeed it came that they would do everything they could to make it look like they were doing "something" but the reality is that he has been getting all the stuff about it and well, there isnt much we can do about it. He said that he thought that 30% might be a low number seeing what this could do for CFR's.

He said that the H3N2 vaccine even if it was pumped up might create endemically infected humans to boot! It would allow someone maybe to live after an excruciating flu, but that they might not clear the virus. Typhoid Annie type of deal with it constantly mutating each time that carrier got another flu with endless strains flowing out of them like an Ex-Lax flu factory.

His position is this. He said, "I am a doctor, I will respond when called and if called and I am sure to be. If I can help I will, if I cant then I will comfort." But then he said that the state could do more harm than good by forcing doctors into positions that HCW's would be taking the hits that are inevitable and that there wouldnt be enough doctors to go around afterwards for the post panflu. His position was that he would be out there basically chanting over an open fire on this one because nothing really works and the time/money put into one survivor would require the hands on for a physician for that one patient. So he who gets a doc, might make it. Everyone else is screwed.

Revere you might be unhappy to find out that Supari's response was in the mail briefing today. I could detect a note of real hostility on the part of certain members of our government in it. I think they are about to cut them off at the knees and damned sure in the pocket book. There are some rumblings inside NATO as well and with the Aussie government. The noise is getting louder and the disgust after the extortion is beginning to roll out into the aisles.

Andrew J-IYO is and was it H2H there? You are on the ground, you have the mind set of the pols. Are they bullshitting the world by saying just automatically it wasnt H2H?

Mono: My comment was directed at the Claude Rains idea that you and Randy were shocked, shocked. The question whether Realpolitik is ethical is more complicated. There are always untoward and unfortuante consequences to being a purist as well, which is a rejection of Realpolitik. Most of politics is compromise, unless it is the purist politics of the fanatic. Moreover I don't feel it compromises any principles to recognize and acknowledge a fact (quite the contrary). I don't like the way most Realpolitik is practiced but I recognize it exists.

revere, you misinterpreted my post if you thought I was shocked. On the contrary, I have held a dim view of the ethics practiced by senior management at the WHO for over 2 years now (just ask DemFromCT). Far from being shocked, the absence of the ethics among the elite at the WHO is precisely what I would expect.

I think the suggestion that one must leave ones ethics at the door when engaged in international negotiations or else risk being a do-nothing fanatic is a false choice, but unfortunately one that has been successfully promulgated by TPTB (of all political persuasions). It is precisely this false choice that has lead to the disastrous decision to "engage" the psychopaths who run China

We have overlooked their tyranny, overlooked their propensity to torture and kill those who seek democracy, overlooked their oppression of the religious, overlooked their enslavement of peasants, overlooked their destruction of China's environment, overlooked their poisoning of their own people, and overlooked their poisoning of American children (for decades). And what have we got in exchange (for MFN)? Cheap toxic toys, unemployment, record trade imbalances, and a resurgent Chinese military.

To get back to the WHO, the US government helped the Chinese government get their candidate/sock puppet Margaret Chan elected DG. We will all pay a tremendous price for this as she does everything she can to protect tyrants of Beijing from their responsibility for hypervirulent H5N1.

And no, I won't be shocked when the full extent of her duplicity is revealed.

Mono: "I think the suggestion that one must leave ones ethics at the door when engaged in international negotiations or else risk being a do-nothing fanatic is a false choice, but unfortunately one that has been successfully promulgated by TPTB (of all political persuasions). It is precisely this false choice that has lead to the disastrous decision to "engage" the psychopaths who run China"

It is indeed a false choice and I don't think anyone (certainly not us) was putting it forth. But it is a mode of thinking and operating and not to see it that way is to distort what you see. It is also quite possible that on occasion the compromises done in that framwrok are b eter than other courses of action. It depends. I think to compare WHO to torturers and murderers is overdrawn (to say the least). They are an international agency, however, and they must deal with nations, including the US, that tortures and murders. Every timeyou buy a procudt made in China or the US you do the same. It is your little version of Realpolitik.

I think Realpolitik is often used as an excuse to commit unethical, unprincipled acts. And I'm well aware that this excuse is used by the WHO and other international actors. It has been used by many governments, including the US, to engage in unethical behaviour, eg, supporting Latin American or Chinese dictators.

The US government is certainly not blameless, but suggesting that the failings of the US government are equivalent to the failings of the Chinese government lessens your credibility.

To review:

Slavery is practiced in China today. Slavery was abolished in the US over 100 years ago.

Child labor is practiced in China today. Child labor was obolished in the US over 70 years ago.

China is a dictatorship. The US is a democracy and has been since its inception.

China has no freedom of speech. The US does (which is why this blog is available in the US but not in China).

China does not enforce its pollution laws. The US does, to some extent.

China does not enforce its safety laws. The US does, to some extent.

Etc. etc. etc.

The US has never been a perfect country. Anti-semitism and segregation were rampant in the US prior to WWII. Should the US therefore have refrained from criticising Nazi Germany or Facsist Italy because of its lack of moral perfection?

It is important to have a sense of scale. Or else one risks becoming a do-nothing fanatic.

Mono: I thhink if you were under the falling US bombs in Vietnam and Iraq and the object of government overthrows numerous times (e.g., Iran, Guatemala) you wouldn't have such a forgiving (and Realpolitik) view of the US. I say this without wishing to take anything from your critique of China (a critique, I note that is focused on their atrocious domestic policy). The US is one of the best places to live but if you live many other places it is not one of the best governments. You are entitled to your judgments and political views but you should be on guard you don't become self righteous. I say this with the recognition it is a fault we all are prey to when we have a strong sense of right and wrong so I am talking to myself as well as to you.

Thanks RobT, glad my essay of some use to you.

Hey, seo yarismasi, why did you repeat my post on September 4, 2007 at 9:19 PM? Just curious.

I'm thinking it might be a mistake for anyone to click on your name, right?

revere, I don't want to be anywhere near where bombs from the US are falling, and that would include Germany and Japan during WWII. I suspect you didn't pick those particular countries cause, maybe, you think it was kinda, sorta, OK to drop bombs on those countries. If so, you're really not against dropping bombs on countries, you're against dropping bombs on certain countries at certain times. Actually, if it had been possible to turn Vietnam and Iraq into "normal" countries with democratic governments, you probably wouldn't have chosen them as your examples, either. I do agree that the wars in both Vietnam and Iraq were a mistake, but not because their respective governments were the good guys and we were(are) the bad guys. Rather, they were bad wars because they were unwinnable. That doesn't mean I don't regret the loss of innocent life. Wars are always terrible things. But innocent civilians die in every war. Ask the people of Dresden and Hiroshima.

Now you may say that choosing not to engage in certain wars is an example of Realpolitick but I would say that it is a matter of pragmatism, which is not the same. We can, and should condemn evil leaders at all times. That doesn't mean we can always stop them. We simply do not have the resources to remove every villain and turn every country into Disneyland, unfortunately.

What we can do is refuse to do business with evil people. If I was to pick examples of American bad behaviour, I would choose our business dealings with the dictators of Saudi Arabia and China. The rulers of these countries are bad people. We should say so, even if we are not able physically force them out. I hope you will agree that we are at our best in foreign policy when we demonstrate the same values internationally that we apply domestically.

As far as being self-righteous, although I am by no means perfect, I haven't poisoned any kids, enslaved anyone, tortured anyone or murdered anyone, so I'm on fairly safe ground in crititicsing the Chinese government for engaging in these activities. I have often criticised the US government for their anemic pandemic efforts. I have also criticised the Western MSM (especially Rupert Murdoch) and American companies for their role in bringing toxic Chinese products to the US. Check out my blog for numerous examples.

I urge people to throw away any toy made in China and not to buy any more of them. That will hurt the Chinese government, but it will also hurt American companies like Mattel. But that's not why I do it. I do it because its the right thing to do. Sorry if that sounds self-righteous.

what about oil from Saudi-Arabia then ?

I wonder whether you can give some objective, reproducable,
measurable criteria which puts China on top of the list
of evil countries.
Or is it just some personal experience, private
revenge-campaign and birdflu is only a means to the end ?

Mono: Sounds like you are pretty selective in what you criticize the US for, too. You and I don't agree about Vietnam and Iraq. I didn't oppose them because they were unwinnable. I opposed them before we knew whether they were winnable or not. Because they were wrong from the outset. "Unwinnable" sounds a lot like Realpolitik to me, but we each see the world through our own lenses. Remember, too, that "China" isn't a person. It is a country. Whether you personally tortured anyone isn't comparable to whether a country did it. It is a false comparison. Hardly any Chinese torture anybody, either. They are almost all Monotremes.

anon, I did mention Saudi Arabia in the post above yours.

The Chinese goverment is responsible for inflicting brain damage on millions of Chinese and American children via lead toys. How's that for evil?

revere, I'm a pretty harsh critic of much of what the US government does, especially lately.

How did you feel about the Korean War? If South Vietnam had ended up like South Korea, I wonder if you still would have used Vietnam as an example. If the bombing of Serbia had not been effective and the Balkans were in the midst of a bloody unending civil war, perhaps you would have chosen Yugoslavia as your example. Success matters.

Note, I thought Iraq was a mistake before it started but not because their government didn't deserve to be overthrown. It comes down to how much evil is being done and whether you can stop it. If you can, I think you have a moral obligation to do so. If it had been possible to stop the genocide in Rwanda, I think we should have done it. You?

I don't blame the Chinese people for what their government does. Its the leaders who are evil. We may not like our leaders, but we can change them, peaceably. The Chinese people cannot. That's a pretty profound difference, imo.

Mono: That also makes us -- you and me -- responsible for the leaders we elected, a re-elected knowing what they had done. I'm not going to argue just and unjust wars here in the comment thread. Too big a topic and clearly a big topic connected with your opinions, which are more complicated than you are giving them credit for.

that's why I asked.

> I urge people to throw away any toy made in China and not to buy any more of them.
> That will hurt the Chinese government,

do you also urge people to refuse oil from Saudi-Arabia ?
Aren't North Korea, Myanmar,Iran , ... , ... , ... , worse than China ?
Why China ? Personal experience ?

Branswell comment on patenting viruses :

http://www.cp.org/english/online/OnlineFullStory.aspx?filename=T060304A…

RobT, any confirmation from Australia about
the AD 850 million ? I doubt it.

anon: The Branwell pieces are old (I posted on them at the time). NetNewsNow coughed up old ones for some reason.

revere, yes, we are responsible for the leaders we elect. And we pay a price when our leaders screw up, in many ways. Sorry for the thread drift, but you started it ;-)

anon,

Yes, I do urge people to refuse oil from Saudi Arabia. I would like to see solar panels on every building in the US. I'd like to see wind farms wherever feasible. And the sooner we can get cellulosic ethanol working, the better, imo.

Yes, North Korea, Myanmar and Iran do have worse governments than China. I would also add Zimbabwe.

I appear to be overfocused (to you) on China because I mostly post about panflu. H5N1 became hypervirulent in China as a result of the policies of the Chinese government. They could have warned the world, but chose not to. Many have already died as a result. If H5N1 goes pandemic with a high CFR, which I think is likely, then the Chinese government will be responsible for the deaths of hundreds of millions of people. No other threat comes close.

Mono and others.... I would draw the line at the ethanol production stuff. This has far reaching eco-effects. Might want to look up what happens here.

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba/ba591/

http://www.energyjustice.net/ethanol/factsheet.html

I agree that ethanol from corn is a bogus strategy for energy independence which is why I referenced cellulosic ethanol. It comes from switchgrass not corn.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellulosic_ethanol

But this is way, way off topic for this post.

Wouldn't be the first time someone has hijacked a subject at EM.
Understandable though as there are many important issues facing humanity right now.

and you'd like the US-government to spend _how much_
to achieve this oil-independence ?
It hurts USA more than it hurts Saudi

one last question, momotreme, so to be more precise
and give you fewer reason to evade:

what was first:
1) your panflu concern
or
2) your China-hate

?

it's the structure of a "blog" that unfortunately we can't
split topics or start new threads.

"Supari, liar"

http://www.balibs.org/news-update/balinese-h5n1-bird-flu.shtml

Now here is a rhetorical question for you guys. For about 2 years Indonesia has been witholding the samples, isolates and information and they have had case after case after case. So at the least its endemic in the country on all sides.

I was directed to a site by a friend

http://www.lampungpost.com/cetak/berita.php?id=2007090501561547

Which indicates that about 100(translator is shitty on this) people are being isolated in Lampung for "typhoid" and they are giving them Tamiflu for it. Hmmmm...... Tamiflu for typhoid

So without racing to a conclusion has anyone got anything to back it up because I cant read this shit on that post and the translation as I said sucks. I can tell from presentment that something is going on but I dont see typhoid in there anywhere. I see malaria and typhus. Both are given to you by sabre toothed flying crickets and their walking cousins.

So what do we got?

anon, there are other places you can ask me questions without causing topic drift, so in the future, please do so.

Just so no-one has a false impression, I don't "hate" China. But I do think its leaders are cold-blooded psychopaths. I first became aware of their complete indifference to human life during the SARS crisis. Their behaviour with regard to H5N1 confirmed my initial impression. No-one suffers more from their bad behaviour than the Chinese people.

monotreme, tell me where you want to discuss this

> Their behaviour with regard to H5N1 confirmed
> my initial impression

so, that's a "yes". Your China-hate is older than your
panflu-concern. You might want to demonstrate whether
the latter maybe was only pushed to serve the former ?!?

Mono: Then I guess you think Woodrow Wilson and the US surgeon General and many others were cold-blooded psychopaths in 1918?

anon, click on my name. You can ask me questions at my blog or at PFI_Forum.

revere: yes. I think many US government officials in 1918, and now, were/are cold-blooded psychopaths. I'm not sure Wilson was a psychopath, but he was cold-blooded. He was a megaloomaniac, largely ignorant of science, who was convinced he was right. Talk about self-rigteous!

Every country produces psychopaths and they have an unfortunate ability to rise to power. As before, the difference between the US and China is that we can get rid of ours at election time, the Chinese people can't.

This is why it is so important for us to criticise and expose psychopaths in the Chinese government. We can do it, but Chinese bloggers risk torture and death for voicing their opinions. We should not hesitate to help Chinese advocates of freedom because our own government is imperfect. The war on psychopaths is global.

Mono: Very pliable reasoning. I would think that because we can change our leaders it was more important to speak up about ours than about theirs. But you have shot your arrow (Chinese leaders are bad) so you are entitled to paint the target around it. Just don't expect everyone to shoot at the same targets you do.

revere: I never expect anyone to believe as I do and have no problem with people, from any country, criticising the US government,

However, *someone* needs to criticise the Chinese government. They have used so many strategies to silence criticism that there are few are willing to do so. OTOH, the American government has no shortage of critics.

Mono: That's your perception. China has had lots of critics. Its despotic nature is well known around the world. The US? Not so much. Yes we get criticized (properly) but we are given the benefit of the doubt we no longer deserve.

anon-You got any more like that on Indonesia post? My contention is that they have it, have had it for a while and not reported it for economic reasons. They in my mind dont care if they infect anyone or not. They certainly havent been sending anything out that would suppport their position that its not there. Their response was that when the supposition was made that it was H2H there, they went off like bombs. Supari in particular seems to be working as an obstructionist in the process. They have Fedex there, all they have to do is ice it down and send it out.

Revere question. If indeed even by computer modeling the stuff is H2H doesnt that bring us now to Pan -4 by the WHO criteria? Who makes the decision to call something -4? Is there like an executive committee that the lovely Ms. Supari could throw the wrench into?

I am thinking it might be okay as long as its not like the UN Security Council where even one permanent member or the temporary one can veto a resolution. If that is possible then we have a really big problem.

revere, its not just my perception that China is silencing its critics, its a well-established fact. If you are unaware of the many dissidents in jail for no crime other than criticism of the government there, I will be happy to provide a long list of links.

Similarly, if you want documentation as to how Rupert Murdoch is censoring Western MSM criticism of China in his vast media empire, which now includes the WSJ, I invite you to read this article:

"Murdoch's dealings in China: It's business, and it's personal"

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/06/26/asia/26murdoch.php

As far as the US "getting the benefit of the doubt", I'm starting to think we live in alternative universes. Even before Iraq, there was an extremely strong anti-American strain throughout Europe, especially among the intelligentsia. I recall seeing anti-American graffiti at the University of Oslo, over 10 years ago.

As the dominant superpower, it is natural that we be criticised, so I'm OK with that. And when we make dumb moves like Iraq, I fully expect and understand why we are harshly criticised. But c'mon, if you think the US is being given the benefit of the doubt, I want some of what you're smoking ;-)

Mono: You misread me. It's not my perception people are giving China a pass, as you seem to think. they are widely condemned. We are not just being criticized because we are the dominant superpower. We are being criticized for evil deeds, which you do not seem to understand.

revere: I think you misread me and/or didn't read the IHT/NYT article I cited above. People are giving China a free pass: its called MFN, the Olympics, etc. etc. The MSM controlled by Rupert Murdoch, which is considerable, is deliberately censoring news that is critical or embarrassing to the Chinese government.

We were being criticised before Iraq. And yes, it was because we are a superpower. That is normal and has occurred throughout history. Less powerful countries are always paranoid about more powerful countries.

We are *also* being criticised for evil things like Abu Ghraib and the Haditha murders, and quite properly so, imo. But compare the amount of coverage those cases received compared to this story:

Village killings that China concealed
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article767541.ece

What I would like to see is proportionate coverage, not any lessening of coverage of evil committed by Americans. Because the Chinese government kills mostly Chinese citizens, should we ignore it? Isn't a Chinese life worth the same coverage as the life of anyone else in the world?

Good comment.Thanks admin.

I read a media piece that was not widely circulated that Australia has agreed to cough up more money to help APEC neighbours to fight bird flu, to the tune of $A650 million. Seems like alot to me, but if true there should be a quid pro quo to Indonesia to share the data.

Thanks Admin

thanks

thanks a lot