Effect Measure

Dear Leader is away in Australia, visiting his lapdog, Oz Prime Minister John Howard and attending the Asia-Pacific economic (APEC) summit. At the summit he chatted easily with his soulmates:

U.S. President George W. Bush on Thursday told reporters that talks with Chinese President Hu Jintao were “constructive” and centered on Iran, China-made product recalls, global climate change and civilian religious freedoms.

“He’s an easy man to talk to. I’m very comfortable in my discussions with President Hu,” Bush said. (CNN)

Whatever.

But the main story doesn’t seem to have made it into the US media. It is being portrayed as a prank — which it was — but a serious one:

Eight ABC cast and crew members and three hired drivers have been charged with entering a restricted area without justification.

The group was arrested after staging a fake motorcade through Sydney’s CBD and were stopped near the InterContinental Hotel where US President George W Bush is staying.

One of the Chaser crew was dressed as Osama bin Laden. (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

We know about this because of one of our intrepid readers in Oz (tip of the hat to RobT) who also provides some hilarious background:

Australia has spent $A165 million on security for APEC. There have been black hawk helicopters, police and troops and snipers deployed as well as this concrete and 10 foot high wire fence erected that surrounds the CBD of Sydney. It has created absolute havoc with traffic, public transport and people trying to get to work. You can’t get over the bridge into the city. An absolute mess, and the folks of Sydney are a bit pissed with it all. But hey, there is this VERY real risk of terrorism we are told ad nauseum, so what the heck. It must all be necessary. It’s a bargain for $A165 million, to guarantee our safety.

Then these guys from the ABC comedy show, The Chasers War on Everything, are able to put together a fake Canadian diplomatic motorcade of a limo with 2 escort SUVs with little Canadian flags flapping, and that was good enough to get past $A165 million dollars worth of security planning and three security checkpoints and pull up to the front of the Intercontinental Hotel where President Bush was staying on the 29th floor.

The comedian actor Chas Licciardello, who was dressed and disguised as Osama Bin Laden, popped out of the limo at the hotel and reportedly shouted “Where is my friend Bush? It has all been a misunderstanding!!!” Now the police recognise that something is not quite right and they pounce on the perpetrators, and arrest all involved, 11 in total.

The police officials and Minister of Police and various and sundry other authorities went into major spin damage control, even claiming that the security was good because arrests were made. (email from a reader)

Sound familiar? I know. It’s all a misunderstanding.

Comments

  1. #1 anon
    September 6, 2007

    you know, it wasn’t Osama, still you write it
    in the headline. Deliberate misleading of your readers.

  2. #2 J-Dog
    September 6, 2007

    Now this is funny! Thanks for the post.

  3. #3 vhurtig
    September 6, 2007

    anon,

    Do you believe the headlines in the Weekly World News and The Onion too? Get a grip, it was obviously a spoof headline.

  4. #4 bar
    September 6, 2007

    On “sunrise” tv this am the story is the actors got through 2 checkpoints, then started packing it ‘cos they were so close (10 meters) that they would have hit the US Prez’s SS men next, so they turned around and drove away. Because of that behavior they got stopped.

  5. #5 Lea
    September 6, 2007

    Your not so favorite news channel, Fox, had it on around 1 p.m. today, MST.
    They showed the guy portraying OBL, he didn’t look to concerned over his actions. First was a shot of him with a very long beard, then a shot of him without the beard.

  6. #6 victoria
    September 6, 2007

    Chasers War will go to any lengths to get a laugh about our government, large multinationals, sex, social morals, religions, local government, any and all nationalities, international politics, black, white and brindle and the drover’s dog. Behind all their comedy is a serious social message about injustice. Chasers comedy can be juvenile, crude, insightful, embarrassing and very funny. They have no shame. You can tell that I am a huge fan.

  7. #7 MoM
    September 6, 2007

    Osama?!?!
    Oh, I thought it said Obama.

  8. #8 MoM
    September 6, 2007

    MoM,

    Thanks for the smile. I really needed it today.

  9. #9 M. Randolph Kruger
    September 6, 2007

    I likely would have just shot them and then said, “Its just a misunderstanding.” I wonder of the Canucks think it was funny too?

    In 1979 Revere while I was in San Antonio the base was locked down because of a credible threat against the airmen at the base. Along about 3 o’clock in the afternoon and I think it was the first week of August a car carrying some long haired anti establishment types charged the gate. A stop sign went up, they accelerated. Warning shots were fired, they accelerated more, then they opened fire on the SP’s. Bad move. 30 seconds later the assailants were all dead. Over 1000 rounds were fired and the engine was shattered. So in todays world, especially at our embassies and restricted areas to shoot or not to shoot is the question. Screw it. Shoot them all and let God sort them out.

    These guys think this is funny. Okay, hows this? Say Osama bin a Bomba or one of his cronies made it thru and to the proximity of the PM and the Prez and got them both. That makes Dick Cheney President of the United States. Feel better now?

    My point? This is classic treat a war like its a police action stuff. This leaves the point of good sense and fun at the first checkpoint. They could have been killed. Might have to do that once or twice to make the point that it wont be tolerated.

    There is a LOT of chatter on the internet right now about an attack along or about next week. Specific target? Manhattan…. Keep it in mind about the above post. If they take New York, they take the country with it. It would knock the markets to the ground, it would flatten our economy with it.

    Should have shot the bastards…… Then they would have my opinion on being funny around the leaders of any country and that includes Clinton.

  10. #10 Troff
    September 7, 2007

    Disclaimers:
    I am Australian.
    I have watched many episodes of “The Chaser’s War On Everything” and their earlier season show “CNNNN”.
    Normally, after seventeen years on the Internet, I make a special point of addressing the argument and not making ad hominem attacks. In Mr Kruger’s case, I’m happy to diversify and try both.

    M. Randolph Kruger wrote:

    I likely would have just shot them and then said, “Its just a misunderstanding.”

    And then you’d go down in history as having been the murderer of a popular comedy team.

    Along about 3 o’clock in the afternoon and I think it was the first week of August a car carrying some long haired anti establishment types charged the gate. A stop sign went up, they accelerated. Warning shots were fired, they accelerated more, then they opened fire on the SP’s. Bad move. 30 seconds later the assailants were all dead. Over 1000 rounds were fired and the engine was shattered. So in todays world, especially at our embassies and restricted areas to shoot or not to shoot is the question. Screw it. Shoot them all and let God sort them out.

    They showed a hostile intent in accelerating after the shooting began instead of stopping, waving a white flag or escaping.

    The Chaser’s people didn’t shoot, didn’t carry weapons and DID stop.

    Not to mention the role of security is to SECURE and DEFEND. NOT kill. And if that means they have to risk getting shot at before opening fire, that’s the job for which they signed up. Isn’t that what your president’s Secret Service are meant to do?

    “Let God sort them out”. You really are a violent, psychopathic idiot, aren’t you? Congratulations: you have precisely the same mentality that allowed the World Trade Centre to be destroyed. How does it feel to be just like a terrorist?

    These guys think this is funny. Okay, hows this? Say Osama bin a Bomba or one of his cronies made it thru and to the proximity of the PM and the Prez and got them both. That makes Dick Cheney President of the United States. Feel better now?

    After the way they and you have behaved? … yes! They do something positive for the world, unlike your idiot!

    What IS so important about these tools/fools? Bush – ignoring for a minute every single impropriety we’ve heard about the 2000 and 2004 US elections (and can I just specify again, I’m from Australia and not the U.S., yet I’ve heard about these) aren’t correct – Bush was elected NOT because he was particularly intelligent or talented, but because he was popular, a “common man of the people”. Let’s compare Bush’s college and military records to those of Kerry and Gore, shall we?

    Meaning virtually any single person walking down the street should be able to do the same damn job, BY DEFINITION. Let’s ignore the fact that for the last seven years, your president has repeatedly and publicly proved himself to be an idiot. Have you truly no idea of what the world’s opinion of your entire nation is thanks to your “elected representative in the Highest Office”?

    The Chaser’s crew are popular, so that puts them on a better footing of a common rank with your president. And they’re a damn sight funnier, more insightful and more compassionate, so maybe the world’d be better off if THEY ran your country and ours.

    My point? This is classic treat a war like its a police action stuff. This leaves the point of good sense and fun at the first
    checkpoint. They could have been killed.

    So sorry, didn’t your president say the Mission was Accomplished?

    Might have to do that once or twice to make the point that it wont be tolerated.

    By that justification, it’s okay for me to go and gun down a couple of your friends and loved ones just to make the point that rampant violence is an unpleasant thing to do.
    What is WRONG with you, you retarded psychopath?

    There is a LOT of chatter on the internet right now about an attack along or about next week. Specific target? Manhattan….

    There’s a lot of chatter everywhere about attacks EVERYWHERE. Note that Bush was doing it every time he was dropping in the opinion polls.

    There’s a lot of chatter that Bush is about to repeat Iraq in Iran. Which means how many more thousands of people killed?

    Keep it in mind about the above post. If they take New York, they take the country with it. It would knock the markets to the ground, it would flatten our economy with it.

    You lost the World Trade Centre and yet your economy continues. Let’s point out that Iraq has lost a lot more of the innocent lives than were lost so senselessly in your in your World Trade Centre, SO WHEN DOES THE REVENGE END?

    Should have shot the bastards…… Then they would have my opinion on being funny around the leaders of any country and that includes Clinton.

    You – I can’t even bother using the honorific “sir” sarcastically – are not only a disgrace to your nation, but a stain on the human race.

  11. #11 Attack Rate
    September 7, 2007

    I’m an Australian in exile, and I say:
    “hear hear, Troff!”

  12. #12 Jon Singleton
    September 7, 2007

    Whisper it very, very slowly in an awed tone, “Denny Crane” — yes, Randy, ta for the “Boston Legal-esque” humor, “Should have shot the bastards…”!?!

    The ABC comedy show, The Chasers War on Everything is not altogether different from MADtv. The cast enact a “go anywhere” approach — this mindset will be tres common post transgenic pathogen pandemic — which we (the plebian audience) find hilarious in a mad world where Oz taxpayers spent $A165 million on security for APEC, rather than pandemic preparedness!

    It’s a full time job smiling innanely whilst waiting to be murdered by our competent leaders…

  13. #13 bar
    September 7, 2007

    MRK.

    The question is, why haven’t those security guys (with $165million) got an operations room that tracks all of the delegates? Why haven’t they given each delegate some sort of rfid tag? (based e.g. on the mobile phone network).

    The complaints arise because the security people were caught with their pants down.
    1) They should have stopped them at the first checkpoint.
    2) Alternatively, (if they didn’t want to slow down what appeared to be a legitimate delegate) they could have called the delegation’s movement in to operations. Operations would have advised that the Canadian delegate was elsewhere.

    Then they could have stopped them at the second checkpoint.

    Lets face it, the guys running APEC Sydney security are absolute morons. They oughta hire real security people to run the operation.

    But it sure as hell looks great from here in Paddington, with choppers everywhere and armed cops all over the place.

    Now the government is seen as the idiot, and all these legal threats are nothing but embarrassed as hell bluster which will probably be disappeared as quietly as possible.

  14. #14 victoria
    September 7, 2007

    Randolph,

    I still think you are awesome.

    However, to put some perspective on this. The Chasers have put a smile on every Australian face. We are a laconic lot. We are irreverent, and will embarrass and humiliate ourselves and everyone else. It is the Australian way. The Chasers said that that were going to do something – and they did. The security crews should have been on the look out for the Chasers. There was never any intention to harm anyone.

    The Chasers have managed to gain more press coverage than any of the violent little twits that burn cars, beat up police or loot shops at these APEC gatherings.

  15. #15 anon
    September 7, 2007

    why does Bush have to tavel to Australia at all,
    when it costs 165 million ?
    Shall he send email or communicate by telefone
    or start a blog.
    They even have TV and radios and newspapers in Oz these days.

  16. #16 M. Randolph Kruger
    September 7, 2007

    And it would seem that everyone there in Oz is in la-la land about this and that its no big deal. You dismiss the fact that if it hadnt been a “giggle group” attack that it could have indeed been a valid one Hell bent on taking out the PM and Bush. I think its absolute bullshit that these guys got this close and Troff I really dont care whether you think I am right or not. But I do expect that you would be somewhat open minded to the facts and that is that they could have been anarchists just as well. Full blown wars have broken out over this exact same thing Troff. Archduke Ferdinand ring a bell? Bush wasnt around then old son and thats a fact. I guess that WWI never happened.

    If this had been your opposition to the war group leader meeting with the equivalent of Clinton or Iraq Chirac and they had even 500 pounds in the trunk of that car, both and most all of the leaders would have been dead. Period. It likely would have brought the building down and that Troff is a fact.

    Its an Aussie problem regarding the security and even the Secret Service here bears some responsibility. Once they got past the second checkpoint, their lives were all in danger including the civilian workers and that SIR is pure bullshit. I can tell you that I have personally run checkpoints before in detachment level strength and up to batallion and this was pure bullshit. It doesnt matter that I support Bush and that I despised Bill Clinton, I would have protected them both the same and that is with my life if necessary as a member of the Armed Forces of this country, as I swore to do. In fact, if I had to I would go down defending whomever the PM is of Aussieland or one of their people because they ARE one of our allies. That includes you Troff

    Stick around… very shortly bin Ladins boys are going to fire their next shot and it will render this discussion moot. I will win this one by pure dead people default and you can blame anyone you want then.

    As for revenge? I dont know what revenge you are speaking of. We are under attack on all fronts around the world if we are not Muslim. I guess you missed that fact. Again, I would have stopped them by whatever means necessary. At checkpoint two they might have just been arrested, at three they would have needed the body bags and forensics teams.

    As for these funny guys. I wonder if those dead Aussies from a few years ago that died in the attack in Bali think its funny? Revenge? You better hope it never does get to the revenge stage.

  17. #17 M. Randolph Kruger
    September 7, 2007

    Hiya Jonny,

    Yeah you are right, and with 170 Aussiebucks you get a dead PM and a lot of finger pointing.

    Everything else good for you?

  18. #18 revere
    September 7, 2007

    Randy: I think that was exactly the point. All that money for show. A bunch of comics dressed like Osama made it all the way. Meanwhile everyone else was inconvenienced, essentially for nothing, because if someone really wanted to do something it wasn’t hard. Security theater. Just like the US.

  19. #20 David Marjanovi?
    September 7, 2007

    We are under attack on all fronts around the world if we are not Muslim. I guess you missed that fact.

    Yes, I did.

    Show me how almost all of Europe is going up in flames.

    OBL’s main motive seems to be the US support for the tyranny of the 7000 princes that rules Saudi Arabia.

  20. #21 M. Randolph Kruger
    September 7, 2007

    Oh and by the way Troff….It cost the US economy almost 500 billion dollars in a day. We went into a war, right or wrong and Revere is more than happy to say how much that costs. Then there were 3000 plus lives, many more post of it, and Saddam had a partial hand in it. Sounds like you are one of these guys that will end up as a Muslim by default when they finally encroach on your borders there.

    As for being a psychpathic idiot, cant really be both. But you can be dumb and thats what you dont get here. This was dumb and in the most serious of situations. What if it had been a bomber? A single stupid act could have had some terrible consequences. And that makes me an idiot? Or does that make you terribly uninformed. I think its the latter.

    You give a pass to some guys who could have started WWIV into motion. I wonder who would be right if they had been a bomber and not a “giggle group”? Think about it. It was funny as shit but if it had been the other way, then what would you say? It puts the security forces around PM, Presidents, and world leaders at risk and all for a prank. If that building had come down what would you be saying? Who would be the idiot then?

  21. #22 M. Randolph Kruger
    September 7, 2007

    David-Thats a political decision. Not a military or terrorist one. We choose to support the political system of Saudi Arabia and it is one that has been around for almost 100 years now. It is the duly authorized but likely not democratic system that is there and we deal with them under those rules. The UN supports their government by recognition too. So you support OBL’s manners?

    As for Europe, not in flames but I would call it smoldering. France riots last year almost caused a civil war, Madrid bombing, UK bombing, Germany, Italy. So am I missing something in your point? Because they arent riding at the head of a tank into Switzerland in an open and direct war we are to assume that an occasional release of steam by a radical Muslim group is just okay. FYI-Some native Memphians were on the double decker in London when it got hit. Two young girls on their first European vacation. Ripped ones face up so bad she’ll be in and out of surgeries for years. I’ll be sure to tell them YOU said hi.

    If you see Osama, tell him I am looking for him. I also hope they fry those guys in Oz to the maximum extent of the law.

  22. #23 reason
    September 7, 2007

    Boy,
    Randy just doesn’t get it does. It wasn’t the comedians that stuffed up, it was the security guys. Live test, result failure – just as well it wasn’t for real, but I wouldn’t pay them anymore.

    As for the London Bombing, umm. excuse me but surely it isn’t just serious because HELL there were some American’s involved. That is the way you guys count isn’t it. Iraqs a disaster because 4000 Americans have been killed, 300000 Iraqis are just collateral damage. That is sure the way to get yourself popular throughout the world.

  23. #24 Kseniya
    September 7, 2007

    Randolph, it’s not that this is FUNNY – it’s that this is PATHETIC.

    If it’s funny, it’s funny in a way that has slowly shaking my head and muttering, “Holy crap.”

    Of course terrorism is serious – I’d never disagree with you on that – it’s the security that’s the joke. Isn’t that the point? If anything, we should thank those brave (or at least, exceedingly brash) comics for taking a risk to show how stunningly easy it is to get through a hundred-million-dollar security scheme.

    Hey, you know how anti-virus software developers hire hackers to try to break the AV and to write new viruses as part of an effort to improve the AV heuristics? This is the same thing, kinda. This crazy stunt may be exactly the kind of humiliating shot in the arm that security forces need. If not, either the spread of rank incompetence knows no bounds, or the whole thing is a sham anyway.

    Either way, blaming the comedians – or those of us who sit up and take notice of the significance of their outrageous stunt – are NOT the ones at whom you should be outraged. Your priorities puzzle me. I’d think you’d be outraged at those whose incompetence and apathy put these world leaders at risk, not at those who point out the incompetence.

    Would you have advocated “frying to the full extent of the law” the kid who pointed out that the emperor was stark naked? Based solely on what you’ve posted here today, I would have to guess “Yes”, though in truth I doubt it very much. So why are you attacking those who may have done us all a big favor?

  24. #25 M. Randolph Kruger
    September 7, 2007

    Uh-gee reason. 300,000 Iraqi’s huh? Okay so where are the bodies. You have been CNN’d. If there were 300,000 Iraqi’s dead then the stench would run all the way to Stockholm. Fact is that we killed about 45,000 on the assault on Baghdad. Another 10,000 or so is what I understand from the UN sources. Maybe you mean the confirmed now 375,000 that Saddam murdered and 140,000 Kurds?

    Popularity contests? Call for B. Clinton who was offered up OBL and he passed, only to have to try to kill him a few months later. Now thats popular.

    As for the security guys…. yeah well you are right about that one. I would ask for my money back if I was an Aussielander.

  25. #26 M. Randolph Kruger
    September 7, 2007

    Ksn-No and you are right K. My point is simple and it is this. With a 180 degree turn they could have been carrying a bomb. Anything past that makes their joke not funny. Punk’d is one thing, dead is another. Now you know WHY it costs so much for security. Its not really security, as they can get just about anyone they want and just about on their timetable.

    You had every head of state in the region that there was and this if it had been the other way around would have generated a response by those nations. Its not law enforcement, its anti terrorism. Getting a foreign leader killed on your soil is a fast way to start a war. Laws are for people who will follow them, I am around for the people who wont. I learned that particular little item at the tender age of 25 and first hand.

    Guys that would attack and bomb a facility with heads of state in it dont give one big shit whether they are right, left, centrist. They just want to kill them. Plenty of people wanted to kill Clinton, they were just improperly armed. One guy tried to fly a plane into the Oval Office if you recall. Remember the guy with the AK-47 in front of the White House?

    Standard response now is to shoot first and ask later which is what these guys should have done not later than check point 2. If he made it past 2 then the M-72’s should have been pulled and taken the vehicle out. Good joke immediately gone bad and they would have screamed they had rights and all of that.

    Very nice and applying the law to a terrorist act. It was indeed a terrorist act regardless of whether they really were or werent. What would the forensics guys have found if they had cooked them? A guy dressed as a Middle Easterner with a beard that was incinerated to his face, in a limo, improper credentials and flying the flag of Canada. Sure sounds like a terrorist to me. What? He had a joke union card on him? Thats a big defense in court if you consider it properly I guess.

    Perspectives change.

  26. #27 Kseniya
    September 7, 2007

    It was indeed a terrorist act

    Sorry, I can’t agree with you on that one. Illegal? Sure. Terrorism? Only if you’re Rod Paige.

  27. #28 Kseniya
    September 7, 2007

    Oops! Bad tags! Let me rephrase:

    It was indeed a terrorist act

    Sorry, I can’t agree with you on that one. Illegal? Sure. Terrorism? Only if you’re Rod Paige.

  28. #29 Kseniya
    September 7, 2007

    Now you know WHY it costs so much for security. Its not really security [...]

    I’m sorry, I don’t quite understand what you’re saying here.

  29. #30 Charlie B.
    September 7, 2007

    If the security was up to it, the Chaser boys would have been stopped at the first checkpoint. The guards would have twigged, they’d have been told to piss off. There might have been a few choice quotes, and that would have been that.

    But a bunch of TV comedians and pranksters, with all the preparation of a night down the pub, a few little flags, and a rented limo, managed to get to the door of the supposedly best protected hotel in the country, with a 5km fence round it.

    Millions of dollars of security defeated by a bunch of TV jokers.

    Good.

    Thank f**k it *was* a bunch of TV jokers, ’cause if it had been anyone malicious, we’d be looking at 5th Sept footage for the next 5 years and yet another war. I’m delighted that the shoddy security, despite the money and the fence, was exposed for the waste of time it is.

    Charlie

  30. #31 K
    September 7, 2007

    What a dilemma. Do we sorta approve this hoping Osama will take the hint or do we live in fear of Cheney?
    All in all, can Cheney be worse than Bush?
    Wait, did I just make it to an FBI watch list?

  31. #32 Moses
    September 7, 2007

    As an American, and from a founding family, I’d like to apologize to all those who’ve come afoul of the crank, Mr. Kruger. Most of us are not like Mr. Kruger, so while we were angry and shocked at the terrorist attack against the World Trade Center, most of us didn’t become completely unhinged. And while too many of us were gullible enough to believe the administration’s ludicrous claims of WMDs, not everyone has the education necessary to understand that virtually every claim made was pure, unadulterated crap.

    However, the unhinged have only gotten worse over time. And with the Internet being what it is… They give the sane Americans a rather bad name.

    As for his drivel, ignore it. He’s clearly talking out his ass with a bunch of the neo-fascist talking points that pass for thought amongst his kind.

  32. #33 Anonymous
    September 7, 2007

    I am a Canuck.

    This is funny.

    End of discussion.

  33. #34 revere
    September 7, 2007

    K: “Wait, did I just make it to an FBI watch list?”

    As Heraclitus said, “You cannot step in the same river twice.”

  34. #35 Brian Macker
    September 7, 2007

    I certainly don’t find it funny when someone puts others in the position where they might just accidentally shoot them.

    It’s similar to the reason we have seat belt laws. It might just be that you want to take the risk of being killed for the comfort of not wearing your seat belt but what about the other guy who hits you? He’s going to have to live with knowing that he was in an accident that killed you. Accidents happen all the time and so he’s not responsible for your death, but non-the-less it will be a burden on his mind.

    Another thing is that while the guards are processing these jokesters they are distracted from their real job.

    I say stick the ABC bastards in the slammer for say four months and let them cool their heals and think about unintended consequences.

    Also I fail to see the comedy in dressing up to look like Osama to make fun of the representative of an country that was attacked by that same fanatic. Do you guys visit the families of lynching victims dressed up as KKK members over there? Jerks. Sure it’s OK to dress up like Osama or the KKK to make fun of them but not the victims.

    Those of you who think this is only about US support of foreign governments had better get your heads out from between your cheeks. The orthodox Muslims (true to Mohammeds message) are blowing people of all nationalities up all over the world. Their flavor of intolerance is quite mainstream in the Muslim world. You need only look at their laws, who they elect, and their social behavior to see that.

  35. #36 Bunjo
    September 7, 2007

    It is pretty much a given that any security system can be circumvented by a motivated individual or two. Mostly because the security arrangements are defensive and trying to cover every angle – and this can only work if everyone involved is keyed up, all the time. Humans don’t do this well.

    In the UK it is a fairly regular occurence for either a TV crew, or a journalist from a tabloid newspaper, to expose gaps in new security measures. People have smuggled fake bombs into Windsor Castle when it was ‘locked down’ for a Royal wedding. People have (as temporary cleaning crew) smuggled fake guns onto airplanes, and real travellers have realised after their trip that they carried toy guns, or knives, in hand luggage by mistake.

    Clearly security measures do discourage some terrorists (or move their attention elswhere), but there is a great deal of expense and inconvenience involved for the level of security actually delivered.

    Blasting everyone that strays into range is hardly an acceptable method of enforcing ‘security’ when it is so porous in the first place. You could easily end up killing more people in the interests of security than in an actual terrorist attack. The terrorists would then truly have won.

  36. #37 Charlie B.
    September 7, 2007

    “Those of you who think this is only about US support of foreign governments had better get your heads out from between your cheeks.”

    Um. Right…

    No, all this is about is a 5km steel fence with several thousand police and 2 layers of checkpoints that has cost over a hundred million aussie dollars being breached by some TV jokers who weren’t even being particularly devious.

    FFS, it’s possible to be critical of the way current governments are treating “security” or terrorism without instantly “supporting the terrorists”.

    Yes, there are fanatics out there. And apparently, all one of them had to do was rent a limo with Canadian flags and drive straight in. That’s why I’m pissed off.

  37. #38 Bob L
    September 7, 2007

    It is pretty much a given that any security system can be circumvented by a motivated individual or two. Mostly because the security arrangements are defensive and trying to cover every angle – and this can only work if everyone involved is keyed up, all the time. Humans don’t do this well.

    Circumvented by someone driving up saying “Good morning, a Mr Osama Ben Ladin from Al Quida to see President Bush”? Face it,the security was weak and deserves to be mock. It sounds like the security is more about intimidating protesters than stopping terrorists.

  38. #39 chriss
    September 7, 2007

    Speaking as one Canadian The Chasers have my belated permission to use our flag for a right proper stuff. Very risky…but they made a good point. Where do I send my cheque for their defense fund? Where do I buy their DVD?

  39. #40 K. Signal Eingang
    September 7, 2007

    “It sounds like the security is more about intimidating protesters than stopping terrorists.”

    DINGDINGDINGDINGDING!

    [confetti]

    We have a winner!

    And that’s the real lesson here, folks. What’s the point of spending your country broke to make it safe for democracy, if you wind up losing both the treasury and democracy in the process?

  40. #41 M. Randolph Kruger
    September 7, 2007

    Moses-So being a founding father family makes you automatically right? Bullshit. Apologize for yourself because if it it had gone the other way and they took all those leaders out something would have changed fundamentally in the world mindset.

    The Chinese having their PM riding a tower down would have been mightily pissed. They could have launched against the Australians in retaliation. They DO have the range for Derby, Perth, and maybe Sydney. And since they have a few cruisers in the S. China Sea right now, it wouldnt have been so much as the flipping of a switch. You complain about going to war for no reason? Kill the leader of a country. That I can assure you is a reason.

    Its not insane to want not to get into another furball Moses and its these kinds of things that start them.

    As for the WMD’s, the UN verified really ugly ones were never found. Notice I said the leftist run UN. Maybe you havent read up enough on that VX thats missing. Not like you can destroy it very easily.

  41. #42 M. Randolph Kruger
    September 7, 2007

    Moses-So being a founding father family makes you automatically right? Bullshit. Apologize for yourself because if it it had gone the other way and they took all those leaders out something would have changed fundamentally in the world mindset.

    The Chinese having their PM riding a tower down would have been mightily pissed. They could have launched against the Australians in retaliation. They DO have the range for Derby, Perth, and maybe Sydney. And since they have a few cruisers in the S. China Sea right now, it wouldnt have been so much as the flipping of a switch. You complain about going to war for no reason? Kill the leader of a country. That I can assure you is a reason.

    Its not insane to want not to get into another furball Moses and its these kinds of things that start them.

    As for the WMD’s, the UN verified really ugly ones were never found. Notice I said the leftist run UN. Maybe you havent read up enough on that VX thats missing. Not like you can destroy it very easily.

  42. #43 Aaron Kinney
    September 7, 2007

    Hahaha! Troff blew Kruger out of the water!

    Nice try at damage control there, Kruger. But this comments section was over at comment #10.

    You lose, Kruger :P

  43. #44 bullfighter
    September 7, 2007

    I am not afraid of terrorists. I am afraid of people like this M. Randolph Kruger. They work for the same ultimate goal as terrorists, but are more numerous and generally live closer to me, so I am much more likely to run into one of them than into a terrorist.

  44. #45 student_b
    September 7, 2007

    //It sounds like the security is more about intimidating protesters

    Wow, you just notice that now? Almost all of the securities of the larger political meetings in the last thirty years was to defend against protesters and to intimidate them, or to prevent them from protesting.

    You don’t need concrete walls, razor barbs and thousands of police/paramilitary to protect some bigwhips against some loony “terrorists”. You’ll only need this setup against protesters.

    As for that rugrat M. Randolph Kruger, how comes that someone clearly so deluded as he is isn’t in some kind of psychiatry?

  45. #46 Brian Macker
    September 7, 2007

    Charlie B.,

    I was speaking to the fellow who thinks Osama’s motivations are merely based on US “the enemy I know” political support of the Saudis. As the prior paragraph made quite clear was the topic had switch to Osama and terrorist. Perhaps that was clear and you were responding because you felt you were in the group characterized by the second half of my sentence?

    Did it ever occur to you that I think both of the mainstream sides to this issue of terrorism have stupid “solutions”? Yes, many security measures are a joke and most intelligent people recognize that. In many cases it’s about policial dole, on both sides of the aisle. Peace and flowers isn’t going to stop terrorism and neither is hunting for contraband nailclippers.

    I still don’t apreciate the “joke”. It’s quite obvious someone willing to die can “get em”. That includes comedians.

  46. #47 M. Randolph Kruger
    September 7, 2007

    Aaron get off that cow. And Bullfighter, taxation of churches is illegal. So another bright little group of youngsters comes to the rescue to save the world from me. I wonder if they ever got it that the reason that they are able to say the bullshit they do, is because someone did fight to preserve what freedoms we do have? One world government? Not a chance. It would result in anarchy of the highest order Bully and I might be one of them. And I see that you guys dont even like to vote. So that means what? You get to sit back and say everyone else is wrong. Okay, you have the right not to vote too.

  47. #48 hetherjw
    September 7, 2007

    M. Randolph Kruger: “And it would seem that everyone there in Oz is in la-la land about this and that its no big deal. You dismiss the fact that if it hadnt been a “giggle group” attack that it could have indeed been a valid one Hell bent on taking out the PM and Bush.”

    Right. We all get that. The point is that the security let the Chasers in. The security was bad. So why should we be mad at the Chasers?

    The vast majority of the “security” that has been put in place to address terrorism is play acting, not real security. The Chasers showed that by driving through checkpoints with flags they can get from any corner store.

  48. #49 M. Randolph Kruger
    September 7, 2007

    Hether jw-I am not mad at them at all. Fact is I think this was funny but obviously illegal and allowed only in a bygone era of our lives. They could have been killed. You dont pull pranks around elected officials because it goes to possible anarchist/terrorist activities. Especially here. APEC security or lack of it is an Aussie problem but I can tell you that this isnt just a case of kill the messenger here. They violated the law and therefore they should be held accountable.

    I would do something like this if I were going to hit them someplace else. E.g. bombers generally plant one or more. They cause a ruckus with the first one, then when the emergency/police etc. show up, they blow the second one and then the third.

    No one seems to be getting that if security was this lax with so many checkpoints that they could have gotten them all. Chinese, Aussie, UK, US leaders were all on hand to get themselves blown to Hell. Chasers in the US could have been held accountable if something had happened coincidentally with this.

    In the US if they had say presented themselves by driving up to JFK in such a manner they would have not made it out alive in all likelyhood. It happens all the time here with just 18 wheelers that make wrong turns into the airport. The inroad spikes and whammer plate go up with a punch of a button to lock that vehicle into place before it gets to the terminal. Then the tact team goes after the tractor cab.

    How they got that far is a major concern. But good common sense wasnt followed and the weapons were drawn as I understand it. Chasers running around naked, diverting the police or security details will eventually get them some hard time or one of them dead. One wrong move and they would have paid for it with their lives at APEC. They should have been stopped at the first checkpoint and certainly by the second. The third? Hey, they did screw up. But does that make what the Chasers did right? Not hardly.

    There is a protocol that is supposed to be followed in these things and they violated it, and even with the black eye of Aussie security screwing it up they will still charge these people without a doubt. I hope the judge has a sense of humor, but he wont. They will get at least a hefty fine. As for me, I dont have any sense of humor when it comes to this anymore than I did in the military. I would have said the same thing if B. Clinton was down there and I really dislike that guy. If it had been a bombing, it would have sent us back into the days of 9/11 and the response would have been massive and from all countries involved this time around. Everyone ask themselves what your response would be if they HAD blown the place up?

  49. #50 JimV
    September 7, 2007

    Lessons I would take from this incident and the one involving Archduke Ferdinand: a) if the security were more effective in both instances we wouldn’t be talking about either one; and b) if the anarchist in the latter acted with a sense of humor instead of a sense of righteous indignation, we might not still be talking about the latter.

    MRK, you often show a better sense of humor than you have shown here. I have to assume you’re having a bad day, or bad week, or something. I know this involves stuff on your turf that you take seriously, but I feel the same way about engineers, and did I get mad when SNL did an “Engineering Fashion Show” skit, and for the beachwear part a guy walked out in swimming trunks with a pocket-protector taped to his chest?

    (Well, okay, I did, but my second impulse was to laugh, not unholster my slide rule and beat him to death with it.)

  50. #51 M. Randolph Kruger
    September 7, 2007

    Jimmy-I have seen it on more than one occasion with a lot less big figures as Bush, Howard and the PM of China on hand. It isnt funny. In fact if you have ever been around a car bombing with your commander in it then its just not funny at all. The premise is good and it is to get the ratings on the tube. If they had popped a cap then the news people would have gotten them instead.

    The first WTC was almost toppled because of shit security in the 90’s when they knew we were on their Xmas list to get a present, we did nothing. We didnt fire on the boats that approached the Cole, we will now. We could have had a tragic outcome to this adventure and they all need to spend some time in the box.

    Fact is that since Kennedy security around these kinds of things has been upped and upped and upped. Some examples of the need are that they almost got Reagan and Ford, Carter had one thwarted. So by the bomb they get chaos, and thats what they want. Think not folks. Look what happened to the world markets 15 minutes after the WTCs’ went down. Anything to destablize the status quo. Laugh at it now. Think about it later.

  51. #52 hetherjw
    September 7, 2007

    MRK… we all get that if the Chasers had actually been Osama and his followers they could have done real damage. The point is that the security is fake. Not built to keep terrorists out, but built to scare protesters and suppress political dissent. We can go back and forth all day about what would happen if a foreign leader had been killed at APEC and how much damage could have been done by real terrorists, but the fact will remain that the this security was not built to stop any of that.

    You are arguing as-if the Chasers were killed and as-if we are condemning the police/soldiers for killing them. None of that happened. The security was a joke, the Chasers proved it…

    Everyone understands that terrorism is a real danger. Almost as dangerous as democracies crushing civil liberties to “fight” terrorist in the name of “security.” (Quotes fully intended)

  52. #53 M. Randolph Kruger
    September 7, 2007

    I didnt see any posts on ABC Radio or TV that protesters had been chomped up at all.

    You have something on that?

  53. #54 M. Randolph Kruger
    September 7, 2007

    I didnt see any posts on ABC Radio or TV that protesters had been chomped up at all.

    You have something on that?

  54. #55 Lea
    September 7, 2007

    With you on this one MRK. It’s difficult for other’s to really see the ramifications because they’re stuck in the security being a joke mode and their love of their comedians.

    MRK lost nothing Aaron Kinney and if push comes to shove it MRK that I want on my side, not someone who goes down because of politically correct behavior.

    Please and sincerely Australia people, go ahead and try to change your laws now to suit your desires over this episode.
    What has been created here is an opportunity, and justified at that, for your government to enforce more laws that take away more of your rights.

  55. #56 David Marjanovi?
    September 7, 2007

    David-Thats a political decision. Not a military or terrorist one.

    I don’t know what you mean. OBL dislikes that political decision — so much that he turns crazy and sends terrorists around.

    So you support OBL’s manners?

    Non sequitur.

    As for Europe, not in flames but I would call it smoldering.

    Guess where I live… it doesn’t smell burnt.

    France riots last year almost caused a civil war,

    Oh dude. I live in a Paris suburb (not one where riots happened, but still). The riots were limited to a few suburbs of a few of the biggest cities. The average US “race riot” is much, much, much closer to a civil war than that, what with actual fighting happening instead of only cars burning.

    Madrid bombing, UK bombing,

    Yes, once each.

    Germany, Italy.

    Italy, once. Germany? Please help my memory…

    So am I missing something in your point?

    Yes, the distinction between terrorism and war.

    we are to assume that an occasional release of steam by a radical Muslim group is just okay.

    What chutzpa to believe you can put such words into anyone’s mouth.

    Isn’t it dead fucking obvious? I want to see OBL in a court*, charged with incitation to and abetting of mass murder in more than 2700 cases, and then locked away.

    * The International Criminal Court would be well suited, AFAIK. Oh, sorry, it’s too close to the UN, which is “run by leftists”, thanks for making me laugh so late at night.

    And if you really believe Saddam had a hand in 9/11, I must say your ignorance stinks all the way to Stockholm. Surely you aren’t so stupid as to believe that all evil people are automatically each other’s friends? Don’t you know that OBL called Saddam an “apostate and communist” and, a couple of years ago, offered (megalomaniac that he is) the US an alliance to topple Saddam?

  56. #57 David Marjanovi?
    September 7, 2007

    You have something on that?

    Yes, charged with “entering a restricted area”.

    (It’s somewhere in the first few comments. You should read the whole post and comment thread, however, even though I — obviously — disagree with the violent ideas thrown about there, even though they are rather clearly meant as jokes. I want an orderly chimpeachment followed by extradition to the ICC.)

  57. #58 TW
    September 7, 2007

    Seriously, is freddie kruger real? Have I missed a lot of posts because from what I can read here there is no coherent argument just a collection of sound bites and empty claims.

    Isn’t the internet wonderful.

  58. #59 bar
    September 7, 2007

    MRK:
    I likely would have just shot them and then said, “Its just a misunderstanding.”

    And I thought it was only doctors who buried their mistakes.

    TROFF: next time try TRON.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tron_(film)

    Moses:

    So you were a first fleeter to USA? What were your forebears convicted of? Oh, oops, maybe the US wasn’t started with a penal colony. Interesting that you should choose the nom de blog “moses”.

  59. #60 TW
    September 7, 2007

    Lea – if push comes to shove, it is probably MRK doing the pushing and shoving.

  60. #61 C. Porter
    September 7, 2007

    Obviously America needs to liberate Australia, now, without hesitation. It’s been harboring terrorist cells for too long– long enough for them to infiltrate the Canadian government and steal Canadian identities. I second the motion of Mr. Kruger– dead terrorists can’t terrorize anyone, except as ghosts but I just wired the Ghost Busters (now part of Homeland Security) and they said they are willing to lend the Army proton blasters. Anyhow, Australia sounds like a terrorist name, possibly Al’Ustr’Allah misspelled. Good thing America was there to kick ass and show the Aussies (which rhymes with Wussies, top CIA intelligence reports)that America doesn’t laugh at anything, has no sense of humor, and will arrest anyone found to be mocking our sacred, divinely-inspired, God-tripled-blessed nation. Amen.

  61. #62 C. Porter
    September 7, 2007

    Obviously America needs to liberate Australia, now, without hesitation. It’s been harboring terrorist cells for too long– long enough for them to infiltrate the Canadian government and steal Canadian identities. I second the motion of Mr. Kruger– dead terrorists can’t terrorize anyone, except as ghosts but I just wired the Ghost Busters (now part of Homeland Security) and they said they are willing to lend the Army proton blasters. Anyhow, Australia sounds like a terrorist name, possibly Al’Ustr’Allah misspelled. Good thing America was there to kick ass and show the Aussies (which rhymes with Wussies, top CIA intelligence reports)that America doesn’t laugh at anything, has no sense of humor, and will arrest anyone found to be mocking our sacred, divinely-inspired, God-tripled-blessed nation. Amen.

  62. #63 Lea
    September 7, 2007

    It was funny C. Porter, it just wasn’t appropriate.

    There’s a little saying that goes: “Knowing when to, When not to, and When to know the difference”.

    You see?

  63. #64 justasitsounds
    September 7, 2007

    C.Porter – spot on.

    Lea – there’s a little saying that goes: “Don’t be a patronising, whiny git”

  64. #65 Troff
    September 7, 2007

    Bar: … I LOVE “TRON”. Part of the reason I chose “Troff”. Well, that
    and it’s the last five letters of my name.

    Attack Rate and Aaron – you’re most kind, thank you, I’m blushing. I’m
    trying now to post a round-up rebuttal to MRK, but server is playing
    nasty games. Timing out whilst trying to post.

    Victoria and Lea: with respect, you’re missing a few points MRK has
    made both explicitly and implicitly.

    MRK wrote:

    And it would seem that everyone there in Oz is in la-la land about this

    By their actions in the past, President Bush and Prime Minister Howard
    have lost a great deal of respect. By their actions in the past (and we
    might as well admit, the present), the Chaser’s people Chas
    Licciardello and Julian Morrow have not only gained a great deal of
    respect, but proven that they’re a lot more honest and brave than
    either of those “national leaders”.

    and that its no big deal. You dismiss the fact that
    if it hadnt been a “giggle group” attack that it could have indeed been
    a valid one Hell bent on taking out the PM and Bush.

    Unlike the results of the frenzy into which the Bush administration and
    Fox News have whipped the U.S. public, Australia is not (and I
    apologise now to poster Moses and the 49-odd% to whom this doesn’t
    apply) a nation of slightly more than 50% gun-toting redneck ignorant
    maniacs convinced that their geographically-equally-sized block of land
    is the throne of a God-given global empire with the academic capability
    of a South Carolina Miss Teen USA contestant.

    I think its absolute bullshit that these guys got
    this close and Troff I really dont care whether you think I am right or
    not.

    And yet you seem very keen on defending an incredibly unpopular,
    inconsistent, self-contradictory and (by the way)
    morally reprehensible point of view here.

    But I do expect that you would be somewhat open
    minded to the facts and that is that they could have been anarchists
    just as well.

    Ah, the “be open minded” attack! Well done! “Be open minded to
    the facts that I’m arguing all of this based on something that wasn’t
    actually the case!

    Would you please go buy a dictionary? The “fact” is that they were a comedy
    group
    . The “hypothetical” – and I think it’s still the case
    even in your insane Republican-run country that you don’t usually
    go to jail or get executed for a hypothetical – is that they were a
    heavily armed terrorist group coming to kill people.

    Full blown wars have broken out over this exact same
    thing Troff. Archduke Ferdinand ring a bell?

    Not as much as the fact that World War I was more about six or so
    nations, their interlocking treaties, trade impedances, a
    global socio-economic trend, national imperialism, rampant
    militarism and fervent nationalistic sentiment… ooh, look, just like your
    sentiment!

    If this had been your opposition to the war group
    leader meeting with the equivalent of Clinton or Iraq Chirac and they
    had even 500 pounds in the trunk of that car, both and most all of the
    leaders would have been dead. Period. It likely would have brought the
    building down and that Troff is a fact.

    … you keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it
    means.

    Just to make the point again: fact… hypothetical. Fact…
    hypothetical. They’re spelt kinda differently.

    Once they got past the second checkpoint, their lives
    were all in danger including the civilian workers and that SIR is pure
    bullshit.

    Because a camera and a costume is such a deadly weapon?
    … or because people like you might’ve been in
    charge of security (and fortunately, weren’t)?

    I can tell you that I have personally run checkpoints
    before in detachment level strength and up to batallion and this was
    pure bullshit.

    Oh. You’re frustrated ex-military. I thought your
    “sir” had a hint of it. Well, that explains a couple of things.

    It doesnt matter that I support Bush and that I
    despised Bill Clinton, I would have protected them both the same and
    that is with my life if necessary as a member of the Armed Forces of
    this country, as I swore to do. In fact, if I had to I would go down
    defending whomever the PM is of Aussieland or one of their people
    because they ARE one of our allies. That includes you Troff

    But with defenders like you around, the odds of us dying
    violently
    go up significantly.

    And isn’t that a part of the problem? Because you went to a boot camp
    and had them turn off your brain (and you’re posting to a Science
    Blog?) and rebuild you into part of their lean mean killing machine,
    you didn’t think for a minute as to whether the orders from your
    Commander-in-Chief whomever-the-President-is-of-Yankeeland were at all legal
    or proper.

    Stick around… very shortly bin Ladins boys are
    going to fire their next shot and it will render this discussion moot.
    I will win this one by pure dead people default and you can blame
    anyone you want then.

    … and that really is how you grade victory, isn’t it? Body counts.
    Wow, you are military!

    As for revenge? I dont know what revenge you are
    speaking of.

    a) “After all, this is the guy who tried to kill my dad”?
    b) You don’t know? Quelle surprise!
    c) Which makes sense. After all, it’s not like the U.S. went in to
    remove weapons of mass destruction. Seeing as we had it confirmed
    last week that Tenet and the CIA had told Bush specifically in 2002
    there were no WMDs.

    We are under attack on all fronts around the world if
    we are not Muslim. I guess you missed that fact.

    Your northern border is doing fine. And try being an atheist – the poor
    bastards are under attack from Muslims, but more so from all y’all
    peace-loving Christians… “a little piece of Poland, a little piece of
    France…”

    … have you ever wondered – by which I mean, actually thought
    – about why you’re “under attack on all fronts”? Or
    are you just a good little soldier?

    And try reading the transcripts of Bin Laden tapes: he talks about
    American/Israeli incursions into Palestine and Lebanon. Ooh,
    and what else does a quick Google to US news outlets record? Bin Laden
    saying “We found no difficulties in dealing with the Bush
    administration, because of the similarities of that administration and
    the regimes in our countries, half of which are run by the military and
    half of which are run by monarchs. And our experience is vast with
    them.”

    Again, I would have stopped them by whatever means
    necessary.

    … Of course you would. as opposed to “whatever
    means work best“. You’re not a violent,
    trigger-happy, partisan ex-jarhead, are you?

    At checkpoint two they might have just been arrested,
    at three they would have needed the body bags and forensics teams.

    As for these funny guys. I wonder if those dead Aussies from a few
    years ago that died in the attack in Bali think its funny? Revenge? You
    better hope it never does get to the revenge stage.

    Ooh, and look. Even though Australians died in Bali, we
    didn’t go on patriotic redneck jihad!

    Oh and by the way Troff….It cost the US economy
    almost 500 billion dollars in a day.

    Then get the hell out of there and spend the money
    on education and healthcare instead!

    We went into a war, right or wrong and Revere is more
    than happy to say how much that costs.

    … and d’you think maybe he’s trying to make a point
    there?

    Then there were 3000 plus lives, many more post of
    it, and Saddam had a partial hand in it. Sounds like you are one of
    these guys that will end up as a Muslim by default when they finally
    encroach on your borders there.

    … actually, that bit about “those poor atheist bastards”? That’s me.
    The only difference between a militant Christians and a militant Muslim
    is the names. Everything else stays the same, right down to the
    hypocrisy.

    I’m a postgrad research student in I.T.. My parents
    are European and I was born in Australia. I share a study room with two
    Chinese and two Muslims who share a prayer mat!

    As for being a psychpathic idiot, cant really be both.

    The characteristics you’ve displayed here in text are violence,
    antisocial personality disorder, an ignorance of facts coloured by your
    national, partisan and militaristic outlook and an inability to learn
    from the other comments here correcting you; lending weight therefore
    to the argument that you’re a psychopathic idiot. Mind you, at least
    now I understand why.
    You really don’t deserve me calling you an idiot so much, it’s not
    really your fault. Perhaps you should seek counselling.

    But you can be dumb and thats what you dont get here.
    This was dumb and in the most serious of situations. What if it had
    been a bomber? A single stupid act could have had some terrible
    consequences.

    I can’t quite believe I just heard that line from someone who
    recommends shooting a pair of comedians before even
    identifying or warning them
    . The irony is palpable: the
    stupid, it burns.

    And that makes me an idiot? Or does that make you
    terribly uninformed. I think its the latter.

    I’ll just direct every reader to the paragraphs above. Yes, WWI
    happened because some poncy archduke was shot and George is just doing
    his job. Gosh.
    … maybe you’re beyond counselling. How much of this is because of
    your boot camp conditioning and how much of this is your willing fault?

    You give a pass to some guys who could have started
    WWIV into motion.

    a) As opposed to you, who shoot everybody unchecked on sight?

    b) Or did you mean George Bush and his coalition? The guys with
    the actual
    buttons-on-which-to-put-fingers and the hotlines
    to the armed forces? The ones who bombed Iraq
    halfway back to a neo-Stone Age?

    Oh, no. Sorry. You meant the two comedians in Sydney who work for the
    ABC national television station. Right, my mistake there. So sorry.

    I wonder who would be right if they had been a bomber
    and not a
    “giggle group”? Think about it. It was funny as shit

    You know, I think that’s the first time you’ve actually said that here.

    but if it had been the other way, then what would you
    say? It puts the security forces around PM, Presidents, and world
    leaders at risk and all for a prank.

    Can you hear your own contradiction? Prank = no weapon = no
    risk
    . Except maybe from a trigger-happy brain-damaged guard.

    Here’s news for you. You elected (or were pressured, but have since
    drunk the Kool-Aid) into joining an organisation that by definition,
    sets up its members to be shot at. Just like the
    Secret Service. You’re the stupid jarheads who live by the gun and die
    by the thousands and think it’s glorious to do so without thinking (as
    opposed to all the poor-bastard soldiers who do try
    to help, can actually see the insanity of what’s
    happening, realise they’ve been had and their
    leaders have lied to them
    and want out),
    rather than work any better solution.

    Get this: it doesn’t matter on what level of your precious tin soldier
    brigade you live, you don’t have the right to shoot first;
    barely unless you can prove clear intent of attack.
    Oh, wait. Dressing up as Bin Laden (and pointing out the Bush/Bin Laden
    ties) is clear intent, isn’t it? Seeing how it threatens your
    world-view of your precious Commander-In-Chief George Walker Bush, 43rd
    president of the United States of America, born the year after WWII was
    over being the God-appointed True Holy Leader of your
    almighty Great Christian-founded Nation
    !

    (… and here’s a clue for those who missed the multiple levels of
    subtle irony – your country was utterly unknown even when the Christian
    bible was written, let alone when Jesus purportedly existed. As opposed
    to, say, Iraq inventing metalworking, ploughs, irrigation canals, electrical
    batteries before Jesus supposedly existed
    , the mechanical
    valve, kerosene, syringes, parabolic mirrors, the combination lock…

    … wow. Is that why the U.S. bombed Iraq: sheer jealousy?)

    By the way, the name of the Prime Minister of Australia is John Howard.
    Y’know, like Revere wrote at the top of this page.
    Good luck on your next pub trivia night.

    If that building had come down what would you be
    saying? Who would be the idiot then?

    • The leaders for having taken the inflammatory actions in
      the first place?
    • The security groups for not having done their work?
    • The APEC organisers for having brought such “sensitive”
      people and arrangements into the middle of a major civic
      centre
      and not someplace secure like Camp David or Air Force
      One?
    • You, still and anyway?

    David-Thats a political decision. Not a military or
    terrorist one. We choose to support the political system of Saudi
    Arabia and it is one that has been around for almost 100 years now.

    … and how many of the nineteen 9/11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia?
    Oh, that’s right. Fifteen. 79% is a statistical
    anomaly, I’m sure. We’d better bomb Iraq and Iran just to be sure.
    They’re all just towelhead gooks anyway, aren’t they? Not like they
    ever made any contribution to world civilisation…

    It is the duly authorized but likely not democratic
    system that is there and we deal with them under those rules. The UN
    supports their government by recognition too. So you support OBL’s
    manners?

    Fortunate that there are no claims of relationships between the Bush
    and Bin Laden families before 9/11. Oh, wait

    If you see Osama, tell him I am looking for him.

    If you see a counsellor with some sedatives and a schoolbook, they’re
    looking for you. Perhaps you could help with the
    search.

    I also hope they fry those guys in Oz to the maximum
    extent of the law.

    Because dressing up and carrying a camera is a capital offence, surely.
    Can I just reiterate – all they’re doing is expressing the freedoms you
    fought to give them? You should be thanking them, surely!

    You’re inciting terrorism and giving aid and comfort to the enemy. By
    your logic, I could get you fried. Or locked up in
    Guantanamo. Gitmo. Whatever you call it.

    As for the security guys…. yeah well you are right
    about that one. I would ask for my money back if I was an Aussielander.

    We DO want
    our money back. Shutting down Sydney and hosting the APEC conference
    cost the Commonwealth an estimated $331.5 million dollars. And the
    majority of this nation thinks your president is an insane,
    decerebrate, incompetent moron – who couldn’t even name correctly the
    country he was in,
    incidentally – and we didn’t ask for him to be here.

    Here’s another pub trivia point for you and Georgey-boy: it’s Australia,
    not Austria.

    Emergency patients were bumped from a Sydney hospital to provide
    bed-and care-space in case any of the APEC leaders fell ill or were
    injured. Not just outpatients, not just bed-care patients, EMERGENCY
    PATIENTS. You know Randolph? Those innocents you’re sworn to protect
    regardless of whether you agree with their political views?

    Standard response now is to shoot first and ask later
    which is what

    … what, and not to invade a country?

    were or werent. What would the forensics guys have
    found if they had cooked them?

    … if the Chaser’s people HAD been armed or carrying explosives,
    wouldn’t shooting them have been an incredibly stupid thing to do? Or
    is that just your forte?

    A guy dressed as a Middle Easterner with a beard that
    was incinerated to his face, in a limo, improper credentials and flying
    the flag of Canada. Sure sounds like a terrorist to me.

    … of course, someone who wasn’t an inflammatory lunatic who’d had
    their brain dulled by military indoctrination might’ve said “wait a
    minute, why is there someone obviously dressed as a `Middle Easterner’
    in a Canadian car, being followed by a camera crew?
    Pull that car over and get me a pair of binoculars…”.

    Never start studying biology, Kruger. I’m not sure you could handle
    classifications or taxonomies.

    You complain about going to war for no reason? Kill
    the leader of a country. That I can assure you is a reason.

    Seeing as all’y’all did for Hussein, does that mean the Iraqis can now
    invade the U.S. and kill you all? That okay by you, seeing it’s an assured
    reason
    ? Hey, fair’s fair and you’re setting the rules…

    Its not insane to want not to get into another
    furball Moses and its these kinds of things that start them.
    As for the WMD’s, the UN verified really ugly ones were never found.
    Notice I said the leftist run UN.

    Actually, the leftist CIA and that commie pinko
    socialist bastard Tenet said that there were none too, funnily.

    Aaron get off that cow. And Bullfighter, taxation of
    churches is illegal. So another bright little group of

    So that’s because these religious groups are special, above the law and
    can’t be touched… sorry, were we talking about Christian or Muslim
    churches, it’s so hard to keep track…

    youngsters comes to the rescue to save the world from
    me. I wonder if they ever got it that the reason that they are able to
    say the bullshit they do, is because someone did fight to preserve what
    freedoms we do have? One

    Sorry, why is it Bin Laden isn’t attacking most of Europe?

    bygone era of our lives. They could have been killed.

    … you mean, if you’d been in charge of security?

    You dont pull pranks around elected officials because
    it goes to possible anarchist/terrorist activities. Especially here.
    APEC security or lack of it is an Aussie problem

    … up above you said it was a Secret Service problem too. Perhaps
    George could give you hints on “staying on message”.

    No one seems to be getting that if security was this
    lax with so many checkpoints that they could have gotten them all.
    Chinese, Aussie, UK, US leaders were all on hand to get themselves
    blown to Hell. Chasers in the US

    Which takes us right back to an earlier point. Please take your U.S.
    president (and our Australian Prime Minister while you’re at it) and
    please, kindly, if you wouldn’t mind, f*** off somewhere else
    which wouldn’tve been such a nightmare to either manage, secure or even
    be around!

    I’ve lost track of the things you’re not getting here.

    How they got that far is a major concern. But good
    common sense wasnt followed and the weapons were drawn

    … weren’t you saying a while ago that “good common sense” would’ve
    been to blow them away?

    as I understand it. Chasers running around naked,

    Ah! Now I get it! It’s U.S. puritanism fuelling the fires of this
    outrage! Sex bad. Violence good!

    diverting the police or security details will
    eventually get them some hard time or one of them dead. One wrong move
    and they would have paid for it with their lives at APEC. They should
    have been stopped at the first checkpoint and certainly by the second.
    The third? Hey, they did screw up. But does that make what the Chasers
    did right? Not hardly.

    Actually, one of the freedoms you and your military morons are supposed
    to be defending is the right to free speech and peaceful protest. Guess
    what? By your own definition, what they did IS a protected right!

    Whee! This is fun!

    There is a protocol that is supposed to be followed
    in these things and they violated it, and even with the black eye of
    Aussie security screwing it up

    … and the Secret Service. C’mon Kruger, keep up with yourself here.

    they will still charge these people without a doubt.
    I hope the judge has a sense of humor,

    … I wish you had a sense of humour!

    … actually, I just wish you had sense.

    but he wont. They will get at least a hefty fine. As
    for me, I dont have any sense of humor when it comes to this anymore
    than I did in the military. I would have said the same thing if B.
    Clinton was down there and I really dislike that guy. If it had been a
    bombing, it would have sent us back into the days of 9/11

    … sorry, when did we leave the days of 9/11?

    examples of the need are that they almost got Reagan
    and Ford, Carter had one thwarted. So by the bomb they get chaos, and
    thats what they want. Think not folks. Look what happened to the world
    markets 15 minutes after the WTCs’ went down.

    Look at the world markets now.

    I didnt see any posts on ABC Radio or TV that
    protesters had been chomped up at all.
    You have something on that?

    I didn’t see any posts on ABC Radio or TV that the Chaser’s people had
    any weapons at all. You have something on that?

  65. #66 Tank
    September 7, 2007

    I’m an Australian in exile, and I say:
    “hear hear, Troff!”
    Posted by: Attack Rate | September 7, 2007 12:53 AM

    I’m an Australian in Australia and I say WTF does that mean?

  66. #67 M. Randolph Kruger
    September 7, 2007

    Troff… name change and not to Tron…. Troll.

  67. #68 Tank
    September 7, 2007

    Guess what? By your own definition, what they did IS a protected right!
    Whee! This is fun!

    No, it appears to be misinformed BS.
    You cannot have read anything about this incident without knowing they were charged with a crime and the distinct lack of anyone suggesting there is a constitutional defense should tell you something.

  68. #69 Tank
    September 7, 2007

    Sorry, why is it Bin Laden isn’t attacking most of Europe?
    Where have you been for the past 6 years?

    What European countries haven’t been attacked, foiled planned attacks or arrested members of terrorist cells ?
    Germany, Britain, France, Spain, Turkey, Italy, Belgium, Russia, Denmark. And that’s just off the top of my head.

    Considered even just thinking, let alone reading something, before declaring something ?

  69. #70 Tank
    September 7, 2007

    Sorry, why is it Bin Laden isn’t attacking most of Europe?
    Posted by: Troff | September 7, 2007 10:48 PM

    Where have you been for the past 6 years?

    What European countries haven’t been attacked, foiled planned attacks or arrested members of terrorist cells ?
    Germany, Britain, France, Spain, Turkey, Italy, Belgium, Russia, Denmark. And that’s just off the top of my head.

    Considered even just thinking, let alone reading something, before declaring something ?

  70. #71 bar
    September 8, 2007

    In TRON, it was disclosed that the word related to software debugging mode, and meant “TRace ON”, whereby a system of flags traced what parts of the computer program had been successfully completed. When debugging was complete, then the TRace was turned OFF.

    Even though TROFF is an IT postgrad who claims to have liked TRON, I do not think his rambling, vituperous ad hom attack has either furthered his cause or enhanced his personal credibility.

    It also makes it likely that he was unaware of the accuracy of his self description, TROFF = “debugging mode off” which, stripped of the double negatives, translates to “bugging mode on”.

  71. #72 Mark
    September 8, 2007

    Maybe its time to actually enjoy the Chasers and thanks to Australia’s national broadcaster, make sure you tune in to next Wednesday’s Vodcast to view their version of the current mayhem (or anytime to catch up on past genius)
    To subscribe to the vodcast, copy-and-paste either of the following links into your podcast software…
    The WMV version requires podcast software that recognises WMV files, such as Juice.

    http://abc.net.au/tv/chaser/war/vodcast/chaser_wmv.xml

    The MP4 version is suitable for playing on devices such as
    iPods or PSPs. iTunes, or Juice.

    http://abc.net.au/tv/chaser/war/vodcast/chaser_mp4.xml

  72. #73 Troff
    September 8, 2007

    In TRON, it was disclosed that the word related to software debugging mode, and meant “TRace ON”, whereby a system of flags traced what parts of the computer program had been successfully completed.

    Actually, even though that’s indeed what the term meant, especially in the GW-BASIC interpreter that was released with early versions of MS-DOS, movie director Steven Lisberger said – and go check the 20th anniversary DVD’s audio commentaries – that he’d only heard that context after the movie had been made. The name was meant to be a contraction of “electronic”, which was the basis of the character he’d had in mind ever since he’d been doing television ads for a local radio station. Check http://www.laughingplace.com/News-PID114410-114411.asp if you need an online reference.

    Even though TROFF is an IT postgrad who claims to have liked TRON

    … because me lying about that (which by the way, I’m not) is somehow casting doubt on the credibility of the rest of my argument?

    I do not think his rambling, vituperous ad hom attack has either furthered his cause or enhanced his personal credibility.

    Rambling? I beg your pardon, I addressed points MRK made. What are you talking about?

    Firstly, I think the word you’re looking for is “vituperative”. Secondly, I said I was going to descend into ad hominem attacks. Advocating that a bunch of comedians should be shot dead earns that kind of venom.

    … personal credibility? Don’t be silly. This is the first time I’ve ever been here.

    By the way, as well as my refreshing “ad hom”, I also addressed MRK’s points systematically and with content. Don’t really see you doing much the same here, do we?

    It also makes it likely that he was unaware of the accuracy of his self description, TROFF = “debugging mode off” which, stripped of the double negatives, translates to “bugging mode on”.

    Well, apart from the facts that it really just means “stop tracking errors”; and that so far everything you’ve claimed in this post is – ooh, flat and provably wrong, don’t you come across as a bloody silly sausage?

  73. #74 Troff
    September 8, 2007

    Tank:

    Where have you been for the past 6 years?

    … Australia. Did I not mention that earlier?

    What European countries haven’t been attacked, foiled planned attacks or arrested members of terrorist cells ?
    Germany, Britain, France, Spain, Turkey, Italy, Belgium, Russia, Denmark. And that’s just off the top of my head.

    About another 45.

    Fifty-seven countries in Europe. Britain is classified not as a country, but as a sovereign state and island consisting of England, Scotland and Wales, unless you consider the Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. There are 57 European countries as well as large handful of territories, republics and autonomous regions.

    … interesting, you didn’t bother considering terrorism in the Middle East. Or are they just ragheads that don’t show up on your mental radar?

    Considered even just thinking, let alone reading something, before declaring something ?

    … I could read your posts. But to accept them would require me to stopthinking. You still haven’t addressed the point that MRK is advocating the idiot policy of shooting without looking. How commitably sociopathic do you have to be to think like that?

    … I love watching you guys “exposing my ignorance” and then I need to correct you.

  74. #75 Tank
    September 8, 2007

    About another 45. Fifty-seven countries in Europe. Britain is classified not as a country, but as a sovereign state and island consisting of England, Scotland and Wales, unless you consider the Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. There are 57 European countries as well as large handful of territories, republics and autonomous regions.

    I take it that was you attempting to look like you weren’t just filled in on how ignorant your question was. On a day when every newspaper on the planet is carrying a story about terrorism arrests in europe averting a massive bombing campaign.
    Yeah, great work. Really convincing stuff.

    You still haven’t addressed the point that MRK is advocating the idiot policy of shooting without looking.

    Mmmmm. Much like everyone else who wasn’t having a discussion with him and hasn’t read what he wrote “still hasn’t”. Why don’t you email a few random people in your address book and ask them about the same thing.

  75. #76 nighthawk808
    September 8, 2007

    I’ve been on the Internet since 1992. I long ago lost count of how many Usenet postings, message board discussions, etc. I’ve read, but the count is probably well north of 10,000. In all that time, I’ve never seen anyone so utterly and thoroughly demolish someone as Troff just did to M. FoxNewsTalkingPoints Kruger.

    Mr. Kruger, you have been pwned and then some. Tell me: what was it like standing under that test stand at the Trinity site? Because what Troff did to you was the intellectual equivalent of dropping an atomic bomb on your sorry behind. It’s too bad your cerebral magazine is empty, thereby depriving you of the chance to do your favorite thing: shoot back. Maybe if you’re lucky, Bill O’Limbaughannity will have some new material for you to try out today.

    In my 15 years clogging the pipes of the Internet, I’ve given my fair share of flames. The most frustrating thing about a well-crafted demolition post is that they’re usually given to people who are so clueless that they still think they’re winning the argument afterwards. So the probability is pretty close to unity that you’ll continue to prattle on like a dumb snake with its head chopped off: too stupid to realize it’s dead, but with enough mindless inertia to give an annoying bite post mortem.

    Maybe it’s time to take a clue from your fearless Chimp-in-Chief and unfurl a large “Mission Accomplished” banner.

  76. #77 David Marjanovi?
    September 8, 2007

    “We found no difficulties in dealing with the Bush administration, because of the similarities of that administration and the regimes in our countries, half of which are run by the military and half of which are run by monarchs. And our experience is vast with them.”

    He didn’t say “monarchs”. He said “the sons of kings and presidents”. If it didn’t come from an instigator of mass murder, it would be good humor. OBL should have chosen another career path…

    On a day when every newspaper on the planet is carrying a story about terrorism arrests in europe averting a massive bombing campaign.

    Huh?

    The question “which European countries haven’t been attacked” is so ignorant that I overlooked it. It’s worse than asking “in which US states hasn’t there been an act of terrorism”. Are you capable of reading maps?

  77. #78 David Marjanovi?
    September 8, 2007

    Here is a transcript of a Bin Laden video from 2004, on the website of a mass medium. Read what he says on why 9/11 happened in the USA “and not, say, Sweden”.

  78. #79 Gindy
    September 8, 2007

    Old Randy is just trying to win that 500,000th reader comment prize…
    Ignore it.

  79. #80 TW
    September 8, 2007

    It is more than a little ironic that Bar accuses Troff of Ad Hominems while his entire post is nothing but an Ad Homimen attack. To make the irony even more comical, the idea that Trace Off means “Bugging Mode On” is priceless.

    (I am intrigued that so many of MRK’s defenders have such a similar writing and terminology style but I will leave this for another day).

    Tank writes: “What European countries haven’t been attacked, foiled planned attacks or arrested members of terrorist cells ? Germany, Britain, France, Spain, Turkey, Italy, Belgium, Russia, Denmark. And that’s just off the top of my head.” (I assume from context that you refer to Islamic inspired terrorists)

    The problem with this claim is that it carries the illusion of meaning when all it is doing is spreading fear. Terrorists transit globally so arresting members of a terrorist cell is meaningless. Foiling planned attacks is equally vague until the trials take place, which leaves “attacked” as the only part of it with value. With this reckoning there are a lot less European nations which can add their names to the list.

    Compare this to the Christian and Communist terrorists and you can see that it is (currently) a drop in the ocean.

  80. #81 M. Randolph Kruger
    September 8, 2007

    Its all about perspectives girls. I spent a lot of time in the military, Air War College and out in the field doing stuff that was made up as we went. Troff is some college kid with an axe to grind because he thinks he is right and he is partially. But the partially is far outweighed by the facts that the Chasers probably had the bullet in the barrel waiting on them. They made it that far and as best I can tell they knew they werent supposed to be there. That made it a cognizant act. They would have died in a hail of gunfire here.

    Oz is a great place. One of the few I havent visited in the world. They are fiercely independent in their views and you have to admire that. Troff can say whatever he wants… I support that in all cases and causes. But his five page dissertation on whether those guys should have been shot isnt in question, its his hate of Bush that is. He would have been royally pissed if someone had offed someone he liked when they touched off a bomb. Anarchists right and left. They just like to kill people. So were these guys justified in doing what they did? This time the courts get to sort them out. Next time God will.

    Troff is sadly mistaken in his understanding of what the realities of the world are. Margaret Thatcher was attacked by the IRA at the Brighton Hotel a few years ago, likely when he was in diapers. They almost got her and five others died. It pretty much took the front off the building and we are supposed to just say…Gee these guys are funny WHEEE!

    So I guess that Troff and others here just look at it as something that we should just accept so someone can go and have their fun. That is indeed not a very bright position and it cant be supported in the light of current events. Therefore it is automatically justifiable to shoot once they penetrate the area. The video speaks for itself. They penetrated a security area without authorization. Anything post of that the perpetrators were responsible for including their own deaths. If these guys pulled up in front of the White House or the Capitol building in DC, they would have been at the very least arrested as they were in Sydney. Anything afterwards would have gotten them shot. One flinch, one move and dead they would have been. There is a BIG difference between a security force and a protection force. The latter is allowed to go to major extremes to do their jobs. These guys should be thankful that it didnt go tactical on them.

    Rant all you want Troll, its more of a Bush haters club you belong to and not whether they had the right to do what they did. They will be I think dealt with rather harshly because they embarrassed the Aussie government. I would have dealt with them more harshly than that. Quit trying to parse what they did into little bits and pieces of comment on what I said. If you feel gutsy, YOU go down dressed in a headress and a beard. Take a camera, oh and pack your orange tipped pistol and wave it into the air as you go off on an anti-Howard, anti-Bush, anti-whatever tirade. Be sure to scream out loud that you have the right to do it. I dont think that “armed police” stuff is going to last more than about a second before they cap you. But do feel free to go… test the waters.

    I do recommend that you visit the following places to gain a perspective what its like outside of Oz. Here are some of the places I have been with the exception of Banda below. Its special in its own right. They like gringo’s because their ransoms are so high. Feel free to visit anytime and enjoy the summer and winter sports. They are about the same year round… they start with a large bore weapon and work their way up from there.

    Banda Aceh-Indonesia… Be SURE to tell them you are an Aussie.

    Myanmar-Pipe up with an anti government rant there. Pack a plastic gun too.

    Mogadishu-Ethiopia….Just go for a walk downtown. Dont need much more than that.

    Leimus-Honduras…. Ask which way to the border. They’ll be happy to show you.

    Ciudad Guyana-Venezuela… Its okay, you look American probably so you are fair game. Better yet, tell them you are Canadian.

    Brckzo Bosnia-Watch your step. Those landmines are still just off the road. But you really should put on a blue beret of UN color. It gives them something to aim at.

    But I guess I just dont know what I am talking about Troll with you being the IT guy and such a world traveller into all of the garden spots in the world for security. Yep. I want YOU in charge of security for Sydney and lets cut it back to just police for the next world summit. Summits are good. I like them because it gives everyone a chance to air their underwear. People that are talking are also people that arent shooting at each other. So the leaders of the world are having a chat. Next time it will be on YouTube instead. Cant be spending that kind of money.

    I still havent seen any protester intimidations on ABC or any other news channels. Might it be because there isnt any?

    As for the Chasers, I would have warned them to stop at checkpoint one and if they moved even one more foot they would have been dead. They didnt have the right to do it and they were arrested for it. So obviously you got that one wrong because their right to do it seems to be counter to what happened. They didnt have any weapons? How nice. If it had been a legitimate attack I guess they would have just checked them in at checkpoint one?

    I really love the left wing in the world. They are idealistic but so unrealistic to the harsh realities. There are people out there and they aint just Muslims that would kill you for just being there. I have given you some vacation points. Pack up and go… and have a good trip. You will appreciate security a lot more afterwards. I doubt you will lose your hate of Bush and Howard though. I guess they need to level someplace in Sydney to get your attention on that one. You can send the Chasers in just ahead of them blowing it up. That way you can see whether it was an inside job or not.

  81. #82 student_b
    September 8, 2007

    @Troff

    You my friend, are a god. (This coming from an atheist. :) )

    Your demolition of that lunatic was just beautiful.

    It was one of the best take apart of comments I’ve seen in a long time. And I read quite a lot of blogs with lots of deluded people.

    Thank you for that.

  82. #83 TW
    September 8, 2007

    MRK writes:

    Its all about perspectives girls. I spent a lot of time in the military, Air War College and out in the field doing stuff that was made up as we went.

    You know, this is something I actually think is 100% true.

    Troff is some college kid with an axe to grind because he thinks he is right and he is partially. But the partially is far outweighed by the facts that the Chasers probably had the bullet in the barrel waiting on them.

    In whose barrel? Are you implying the security forces knew they were imposters (as in not being Canadians and were about to shoot them? Did the security forces know they were comedians? If not, why weren’t they stopped before they got close enough to detonate?

    They made it that far and as best I can tell they knew they werent supposed to be there.

    Who, the Chasers? They certainly knew they were not supposed to be there. If you mean the security forces knew they were not supposed to be there, then they should have stopped a potential VBIED long before it got close to the building. I am sure you can recall the 200m / 300m stand off cordons for VBIEDs.

    That made it a cognizant act. They would have died in a hail of gunfire here.

    What a wonderful democracy you live in. If only stupidity really was punishable by death…

    There are people out there and they aint just Muslims that would kill you for just being there.

    Yeah, but America is a nice enough place, and most Americans are nice enough, to make it worth while taking the risk.

    By the way, did you ever post on USENET under the nym “Unsettled”?

  83. #84 M. Randolph Kruger
    September 8, 2007

    TW-So whats your point on your blog? I can only see that you rant about me to the point of nausea. You make assumptions you cant back up, comments you cant either. I have stated established protocol for every security and protection force on this planet around a world leader. So that I suppose makes ME wrong? Bull.

    Typical wussie TW. By all means tell your 1000 blog readers out there that I am crazy… You’ll only have to convince an addtional 3.2 billion to hit the 50% mark. You have no idea what crazy in relation to what I have done in the past is. Come and visit and I can show you first hand what crazy entails around here. Better than that I can just drop you off at the first available redneck bar so you can discuss the issue with a few of my friends. Be sure to expound your beliefs with them.

    Nighthawk-Thats your opinion and you can stick to it. You are entitled. It doesnt make you right though. I read your posts…. sounds like a self agrandizing masturbation session in your writings. But keep it up, you might make it to second rate eventually. I generally have to drop to the level of my attackers here to achieve their respect. In your case though its like hitting a 3rd grader. You too need to come and visit. Please, there is room for everyone and you should also vent your bowel with all of these people that are soooo beneath your pontifications. This is nothing more than a drive by in which you assert your intellectual superiority with nothing more than a few words on a blog.

    I want you both to show up at the next Presidential appearance in the US and pull the same gig as the Chasers and see what happens. I wonder if you will be laughing then.

    Both of you give my regards to Neville Chamberlain.

  84. #85 M. Randolph Kruger
    September 8, 2007

    TW-No but you should.

    Look this isnt my blog. I comment often here as one of the few right wingers outnumbered by the vast lefty conspiracy. I also try not to jack it for personal harping asshole which is what you are doing now. Why dont you come on over to memphisservices@bellsouth.net. That way we can have a personal discussion because you are indeed getting way too personal here and its now to the point of really beginning to piss me off.

    Else just have a nice day.

  85. #86 TW
    September 8, 2007

    MRK, you imply you read the blog post where I talk about you, but it seems you didn’t. The point was reasonably clear – mocking you and the nonsense you are coming out with. I will try to keep it simpler in future.

    You have not stated established security protocol, you have mixed vague threats with shrouded implications that you have an insider knowledge. I too have insider knowledge of the requirements for military and governmental security and I have also practiced this in Bosnia, Rwanda, Sierra Leone, Iraq, Afghanistan and Kosovo as well as “calmer” locations.

    The fact remains the security forces were inept and failed at their task. Making claims that people would “die in a hail of bullets” or similar vague threats does nothing to inspire confidence in the worlds last superpower’s ability to defend itself.

    I love the internet standby of “inviting” me to visit you for an implied violent encounter. Brilliant. I am quaking in my boots at such an adult response. I will repay the favour somewhat, you are welcome to travel to meet me where I will take you out to lunch and then show you round some real secure installations and the security will ensure you come to no harm.

  86. #87 TW
    September 8, 2007

    MRK:

    I also try not to jack it for personal harping asshole which is what you are doing now.

    Irony issues aside (have you read your own posts?), you have a point. I will try to ensure I keep my comments about your comments to my own blog from now on. Sorry to anyone who has been annoyed by my posts.

  87. #88 bar
    September 8, 2007

    TRON:

    1) Derivation of “TRON” from earlier BASIC interpreter: I stand corrected on Lisberger’s understanding of the term.
    2) Are you paranoid. There was no intent to call you a liar.
    3) Rambling – imho, yes. You rambled on MRK’s ramble.
    4) Vituperous see: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vituperous
    5) Does your prior statement that your argument will be ad hominem somehow make your argument of more value?
    6) TROFF = “Stop tracking errors”? Inaccurate. http://www.quibbles-n-bits.com/archives/2003/09/tron_troff.html

    TW:

    1) As argued above, and by TROFF’s own admissions, my comments on TROFF’s post were impartial comments on the substance of his post, hence by definition not ad hominem: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hom
    2) Yes, I did think the analysis of nom de blog “TROFF” was rather neat. Not to mention spot on.
    3) I don’t believe my comments on MRK’s posts above could by any stretch of the imagination be called a “defence”.

  88. #89 nighthawk808
    September 8, 2007

    Kruger: right on cue, and so predictable.

    If you visited my website, perhaps you noticed that I was in the Army myself. Airborne. And yet I have no urge to shoot everything that moves. Basic training did not excise my sense of right and wrong.

    I wouldn’t be allowed anywhere near a presidential speech, so I unfortunately can’t take you up on your challenge, as much as I’d like to. Fox News probably never reported the story about how there is a handbook on how to keep those who aren’t Bush supporters away from his sight, thereby automatically disqualifying me. Nevertheless, a quick search with the search engine of your choice on the keywords “bush” “protesters” “handbook” will pull up more than you care to read on the subject.

    As far as dropping me off to meet some of your redneck buddies goes, you wouldn’t like that. I’m not a little guy, and I love lifting weights. Not everyone who posts to ScienceBlogs is a skinny, pocket-protector wearing nerd. So, unfortunately for you, you can’t resort to physical threats now that you’ve run out of talking points. What’s left for you?

  89. #90 M. Randolph Kruger
    September 8, 2007

    I am in Memphis Hawk. Look me up. As for being a nerd, you are the one that called yourself that. Shoe fits? Wear it. Both you and TW decided to make personal attacks via a blog. I always work against that. You both decided thru your own blogs to attack me personally and make aspersions that you can neither back up or cast because I am not the issue Airborne… I was Combat Control myself so feel free to write me or visit. Else go back to the header and leave the personal stuff at home. Its inappropriate to go after people here. I try not to do it but the lefties always resort to it when their little talking points such as the usual, insane, crazy, empty headed. Okay, so you got your jollies for the day. I think the header was in regard to whether the Chasers should be in jail or not. For me, they should and for a long time. Or you can come to Memphis when GWB comes to visit next month to my ramp and try a Chasers routine on the S. Service. I think you know what will happen if you do.

    Blogging about a blog is pretty lame.

  90. #91 TW
    September 8, 2007

    MRK, if it makes you feel any better I am happy to make personal attacks here rather than on my blog – and to be fair, I only posted once about what a clueless nut you are.

    I am not sure what aspersion you think I have made which I can’t back up (I make lots), but I assume it must be the one in which I imply you are arguing with yourself. If you think this can’t be “backed up” please take a moment to re-read some of your earlier posts.

    It is odd that you think blogging about blogs is lame, but each to their own.

  91. #92 ryanbeed
    September 8, 2007

    OK. This is getting a bit crazy. In all sorts of directions.

    MRK: I’m not going to say you’re wrong. Perhaps the security guys WOULD have been justified killing the Chasers. I don’t think it would have been a good move politically on their parts. Not many people (in any position) do particularly well in their careers after killing a member or members of the US media. They probably wouldn’t have been charged with murder, but there are a lot of people who would have called for them to at least resign. And they would have been justified. Should the Chasers go to jail? Under current law it appears so. Is it reasonable to make it a crime to roll up in front of a hotel? No. Not in a free country. We have to give up some security to call ourselves free.

    OK. On to my real point. I started reading this thread earlier today and I thougt hard about it because it was bothering me a lot. It’s not just that “Anarchist” is such a strange slur (one that I identify with more then a little, but anarchists I know just want to be left alone) it’s also that the lives of all these leaders are thought to be worth so many millions of dollars, and not only that but they’re worth the millions of dollars AND the lives of anyone that even seems like a threat.

    I thought the whole point of America was that we DIDN’T have royalty, that the government would go on pretty much the same regardless of the name of the guy in power. Hell, we’ve got a succession list as long as your arm, why do we care so much about the figurehead? Maybe if we stopped spending billions to protect the king people would stop going after him. (and the king thing was not an anti-Bush sentiment, it was an anti-all-powerful-executive sentiment)

    Ah well. This is too damn long already, but I guess encapsulated, I’m just sad that we’ve made these perfectly ordinary people, who should be cogs in the public service machine, into godlets worth killing and dying for.

  92. #93 Kilo
    September 8, 2007

    “”On a day when every newspaper on the planet is carrying a story about terrorism arrests in europe averting a massive bombing campaign.””

    Huh?

    The question “which European countries haven’t been attacked” is so ignorant that I overlooked it. It’s worse than asking “in which US states hasn’t there been an act of terrorism”. Are you capable of reading maps?

    Posted by: David Marjanović | September 8, 2007 11:17 AM

    Are you capable of reading the names of commenters at the bottom of a post ?
    How about quoted text to determine whether someone is talking to/about you ? No ?

  93. #94 M. Randolph Kruger
    September 8, 2007

    So what would you reasonably suggest Ryan? My side hates the other side, they hate us and certain other countries around the world hate us no matter who is in the drivers seat. I guess we sit back and let everyone pot shot our electeds both foreign and domestic? No, what you suggest is not an answer to the question. It also applies now to all Federal employees and especially the President.

    The following is for those of you who feel that I dont know what I am talking about. This is the easiest to read but it cites all of the other regulations. It is also promulgated in all of the DOD and branch services manuals as well.

    http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/crm01525.htm

    Hence the reference that this was a terrorist act even though they thought it was funny. It crossed the line under US law. Did it intimidate, and impede the President? If the S. Service was aware of it they certainly were about to go into game mode.

    Where the President was in residence it became US territory and therefore US law would prevail in protecting him. Therefore the shoot first and ask questions later would come into play. Disagree? Read the regulations.

    http://law.justia.com/us/cfr/title31/31cfr408_main_02.html

    Also be aware that all S. Service personnel carry diplomatic immunity when protecting the President. They could kill them on the spot and there wouldnt be jack doodly they could do about it under their own laws because they are the ones that grant that immunity to them. They sign that immunity agreement for everyone entering the country each and every time.

    Remember the Russian diplomat who creamed those people outside the restaraunt in New York or was it DC? It was a few years ago when he was drunk by even Russian standards.The worst we could do was send him home and pull his credentials.

    This doesnt take into account the security details of the Chinese Premier, or any of the others that were there. I have no idea what they are authorized to do. Likely close to what we are if not stronger.

    Nutcase boys? There is no limit to what the Secretary of Defense could do in the event of a Presidential attack and that includes a perceived one too. He is authorized by Congress to go to war TO protect the President and thats in his sole discretion what to use and do to protect the President. He doesnt have to consult Congress or the VP. He is in the drivers seat until the President by concurrence of the cabinet and VP by simple majority say that the President is incapacitated mentally or by physical restraint that renders him unable to discharge the powers of the Presidency. That aint going to happen unless something really squirrely happens. My favorite is the one where they dont know what is happening and the President cant communicate via any methods. Like when you are running thru a kitchen to get out of a hotel about to go up in a poof.

    I try to think what the people of Oz would have said if US fighters or B-1’s suddenly appeared in the sky after a “misunderstanding” and were in their perception protecting a President trying to get the Hell out of Dodge. What if someone had fired a shot in perceived defense of the President? This is my entire point and either someone doesnt want to read the laws regarding this or they just want to discount what COULD happen if it was something more than the Chasers. Or more so if it wasnt them.

    http://www.gpoaccess.gov/constitution/pdf/con036.pdf

    Now read this one too. I wonder if Mr. Putin or Jintao think that their people shouldnt be armed in Oz or any country for that matter. The Chasers made it far enough to bring something into proximity of the hotel where GWB was staying and it was humor this time.

    WHAT IF?

    http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/special-exemption-us-secret-service-agents-will-be-armed/2007/09/03/1188783158761.html

    Time to put this one to bed folks. The APEC security points out the need for all foreign national heads to be protected by their own security teams. Just in case.

  94. #95 Tank
    September 8, 2007

    I missed this gem:

    Posted by: Troff | September 8, 2007 7:55 AM
    There are 57 European countries as well as large handful of territories, republics and autonomous regions.

    … interesting, you didn’t bother considering terrorism in the Middle East. Or are they just ragheads that don’t show up on your mental radar?

    Consider this where retard?
    In my response to pointing out how ignorant you were of terrorist cells specifically in Europe? Gee, let’s wonder why.

    Apparently though what you originally intended to ask was “why isn’t OBL attacking Europe OR the Middle East”.
    Wow. Really, just wow.

    We’re posting on a science blog here. I could ask “why doesn’t evolution happen to animals as well then” and it would still look less ridiculous than you.

  95. #96 M. Randolph Kruger
    September 8, 2007

    Post pending, waiting approval from Revere. It might be tommorow since it carries chapter and verse from US law as url’s. Please be patient.

  96. #97 bar
    September 9, 2007

    TROFF & TW: I posted responses to you at 3.37pm. The links on it delayed publication.

  97. #98 Lea
    September 9, 2007

    Yep, time to put this one to bed, please.

    The calumny that is floating around is enough to make a person barf.

  98. #99 Vlad the Impala
    September 9, 2007

    I think we’re missing two important facts in the discussion. Firstly, what the Chaser guys did was not just funny, they performed a valuable service to Australian taxpayers (like myself). If we’re going to spend $165 million dollars, or $250 million according to other sources, we want effective security, not a bunch of clowns disrupting the city of Sydney but barely even inconveniencing terrorists. What we actually got was a joke, security opera of little value. The Chaser should be thanked for exposing that.

    The other point is that they’ve put the lack of terrorist attacks in a completely different light. There were no terrorist attacks on the conference, not because security was so tight that terrorists couldn’t get near the place, but because there weren’t any there. That’s not to say that there are no terrorists at all, but we’re clearly over-reacting to a rare threat.

    More here (and in case I mess up the HTML, here’s the URL again:
    http://northernplanets.blogspot.com/2007/09/chaser-security-prank-success.html

  99. #100 nighthawk808
    September 9, 2007

    Kruger, WTF are you talking about when you say I attacked you on my blog? I dont have a blog. What hallucination are you having now?

  100. #101 Troff
    September 9, 2007

    Hi, Student_b, et al… there are no gods but that which we make
    ourselves; but you really are being overly kind. Thank you.

    However,
    I’m still a little disturbed. I’ve discovered I might have something
    in common with Kruger. For a start, I’m still here arguing this; and
    the likelihood of me convincing him is much the same as the
    probability of him convincing me. Not a good sign.

    Troff is some college kid

    … 36? Wow, if I was a college kid, I could lose
    fifteen-to-twenty years and probably three times as many pounds. Is
    now a time to point out that it’s a postgrad research degree I’m
    doing?

    with an axe to grind because he thinks he is right and he
    is partially.

    Well, at least you admit that much; thanks.

    Do I have an
    axe to grind? That’s relating closely to you calling me a troll. What
    I’m posting may be inflammatory, but I’m not doing it just to bait
    your response (and therefore, it isn’t a troll. You, on the other
    hand, seem to need all the lifelines you can get if the extent of
    your wit is changing my name from “Troff” to “Troll”).
    But I’m doing this because I’m hoping you’ll understand that what
    you’re suggesting is a hair away from murderous lunacy
    and that
    you need to seek help.

    But the partially is far outweighed by the facts that the
    Chasers probably had the bullet in the barrel waiting on them.

    No, see, there lies the crucial difference between the people who
    were in charge of security and you; they weren’t
    trigger-happy repressed would-be murderers.

    They made it that far and as best I can tell they knew
    they werent supposed to be there. That made it a cognizant act.

    See, if we had to define the Chaser act more clearly, we could say
    that it wasn’t just a piece of comedy and social comment – which by
    the way, it was: rather in-your-face commentary (which sadly,
    Bush would’ve simply ignored like he did CIA Tenet’s confirmation
    there were no WMDs in Iraq) of the Bush family’s relations with the
    Bin Ladens.

    But we could also say that it was an
    act of free speech; one of those freedoms you keep saying you’d
    happily wave a gun to protect, in spite of the fact you disagree with
    the content of the statement itself.

    See? It was a right that
    you’ve sworn by the gun to protect, even though it’s been made
    illegal. “Right” and “legal” aren’t always the
    same thing, but at least it’s recognised by society and even called

    “civil disobedience”. But focus on this, Kruger: what the
    Chasers did was still an act whose freedom you’ve said you ought
    to defend.

    … and that you would instead happily –
    wait, how did you say it?

    They would have died in a hail of gunfire here. Oz is a
    great place. One of the few I havent visited in the world.

    That’s right, you’d kill them “in a hail of gunfire”.

    And
    that’s one of the reasons “Oz” is a great place…
    “yankee”… because we’re not stereotypically like you.
    We wouldn’t open fire on someone without checking that they deserve
    to be perforated.

    I notice you’d earlier claimed that someone
    had been well and truly “CNN’d”. I’m guessing you’re a Fox
    News man. There’s the power of the Internet. We’re oceans apart and
    yet even we Australians have heard of Faux News; we’ve even seen the
    frequent debunkings of the dishonest “reporting” they
    do.

    And that’s why this argument is never going to end, no
    matter how you insult me and bring in new comments on me personally,
    no matter how I address your points; the differences here are
    political and cultural and so deeply embedded they put you in a frame
    of mind where you live by the idea that it’s more than just political
    power that comes from the barrel of a gun.

    But his five page dissertation on whether those guys
    should have been shot isnt in question, its his hate of Bush that is.
    He would have been royally pissed if someone had offed someone he
    liked when they touched off a bomb. Anarchists right and left. They
    just like to kill people.

    “Hate of Bush”?

    Oh, goodie! Your mind is like a bonsai tree – stunted
    and malformed by the military, then pruned regularly by people like
    Ann Coulter, Sean Hannity and the rest of the propaganda machine at
    Fox; the United Nations (of which the U.S. is a charter member
    defining the rights you swore to uphold, idiot
    ) is
    a leftist organisation; anyone who disagrees with Bush is a
    Freedom-Hater, anyone who doesn’t think the U.S. Army are
    world-saviours are default Muslims and I’m blind to the “realities”
    of the world because I don’t want to pop a cap in the ass of the
    nearest towel-head.

    Of course, your mind is also much unlike a bonsai tree,
    with its intrinsic lack of any kind of beauty. Or, for that matter,
    apparent worth.

    Congratulations: the weak, miniature, stunted roots of your mind
    have fixated themselves desperately upon the concept of me as a
    “Bush-hater”. Well done.

    Have you considered, even for a moment, why I might be or act like
    a “Bush-hater”? I’ve never been to the U.S.. I live in
    Australia. In Brisbane, actually – capital city of the
    north-easternmost state of this country that’s the same size as yours
    and rather far away. That’s somewhat north of Sydney – the
    place APEC was held and whose name the White House can’t seem to
    spell either. And that’s right – at the time of APEC, I was
    nowhere near Sydney.

    Have you ever considered, just for a fraction of a minute, why
    I might be – as you put it so melodically – a
    “Bush-hater”?
    Although you indeed may very well be
    right
    , I see you dodging the points I made previously and
    shifting the argument some place you think is justified simply
    because you love Bush and hate Clinton.

    I wouldn’t

    have been so royally pissed and if you’d read my last post properly
    instead of just scanning it for points to attack, you would’ve
    seen the bit about us Australians not going on quasi-religious
    screaming jihad after our citizens were killed in Bali. Or the
    soldiers that have been lost because your government dragged us into
    a war with the willing, salivating help of our Prime
    Minister.

    Anarchists don’t “just like to kill
    people”, you silly monocultural little twat, they just
    don’t like a permanent central authority because they’re inevitably
    corrupted and do more harm than good – to wit, everything that’s so
    sorrily happened to your nation and the whole world ever since the
    Bush administration gained office.

    Travel broadens the mind,
    they say. In your case, it seems merely to have just flattened it.
    Little tip, Kruger: a tree – even a bonsai – requires
    more than just Fox-quality fertiliser. The occasional air,
    water and sunlight might help just a tad.

    So were these guys justified in doing what they did? This
    time the courts get to sort them out. Next time God will. Troff is
    sadly mistaken in his understanding of what the realities of the
    world are. Margaret Thatcher was attacked by the IRA at the Brighton
    Hotel a few years ago, likely when he was in diapers.

    Was it a legal action? No; there was a law written
    specifically to prevent people straying into such zones. Were they
    justified in doing it? We can argue this, but there is
    the fact that there is an argument to say “yes”.
    Again, they have a right (not a law, a right) to freedom of
    speech and expression.

    And I’ll say it again in the hopes that
    this time it gets through to you – you’ve said you’ll defend that
    freedom. You don’t get it both ways, Kruger. Either defend that
    freedom and therefore recant your statement, or admit that you don’t

    accept such freedom, you totalitarian gun-wielding bloodlusty
    Fox-brainwashed moron.

    And it would’ve looked very odd
    if I’d come to high school wearing diapers. You are an odd
    little creature.

    It pretty much took the front off the building and we are
    supposed to just say…Gee these guys are funny WHEEE!

    … actually, the “Whee” was meant to point out that it
    was fun disassembling every single stupid thing you’d been saying.
    I’m still doing it, but it’s getting repetitious and tiresome because
    you’re still making the same mistakes and only slowly – if at
    all – starting to correct yourself.

    So I guess that Troff and others here just look at it as
    something that we should just accept so someone can go and have their
    fun. That is indeed not a very bright position and it cant be
    supported in the light of current events. Therefore it is
    automatically justifiable to shoot once they penetrate the area. The
    video speaks for itself. They penetrated a security area without
    authorization. Anything post of that the perpetrators were
    responsible for including their own deaths. If these guys pulled up
    in front of the White House or the Capitol building in DC, they would
    have been at the very least arrested as they were in Sydney. Anything
    afterwards would have gotten them shot. One flinch, one move and dead
    they would have been.

    They penetrated security and were stopped by someone who wasn’t
    threatening to unleash death. The security there was more sane than
    you, are you not getting the point?

    Sydney is not a war zone,
    therefore it is not justifiable to shoot. Is it possible for
    you to understand that, or do you still have that primitive mentality
    that tells you holding a hammer means every single problem needs to
    be treated like a nail?

    “If these guys pulled up in front
    of the White House or the Capitol building they would have been at
    the very least arrested as they were in Sydney”… and clearly,
    that’s all that was needed.

    “Anything afterwards would
    have gotten them shot. One flinch, one move and dead they would have
    been.” Apart from your fascinating Yoda-like grammar that might
    speak as to your age and potential senility but says nothing about
    your depressing lack of wisdom or intellect, you’re still missing the
    point that they were a comedy group, they did surrender
    as necessary, it wasn’t necessary to shoot and you’re still a
    dangerous psychopathic moron who might have to be locked away because
    you very likely pose a danger to the people around you
    .

    Rant all you want Troll, its more of a Bush haters club
    you belong to and not whether they had the right to do what they did.
    They will be I think dealt with rather harshly because they
    embarrassed the Aussie government.

    a) I’d accept the term “troll” if it actually fit what I
    was doing, but we’ve already seen it doesn’t.
    b) Big deal. You’ve
    already accepted a mantle from the “Clinton haters club”.
    c)
    The Chaser people embarrass government people every week, literally.
    Even the Roman Caesars had someone to remind them of their lack of
    divinity.

    Unlike you, we don’t hold up “representatives
    of the common man” as godlike figures, especially when the
    “representative” in question is despised world-wide – not
    just because he’s as violent and delusional as you Kruger you
    psychopath, but also because he’s such an idiot he ignores his
    advisers, gets people killed and can’t even name the country he’s
    in
    and because he insults the monarch of a sovereignty that was
    old before the nation you make so crappy

    was even born.

    Come on, Kruger. Reach for the light, just for a minute. Try to
    understand why people might dislike Bush. People who’ve not even met
    him. You have the Internet: read about Iraq from an Iraqi’s point of
    view. Australia didn’t have to deal with any kind of DMCA law until
    our greedy idiot Prime Minister signed a Free Trade Agreement with
    your politically benighted and blighted nation. Think about what Bin
    Laden said when the Presidential Race was between Bush and Kerry (and
    again, try comparing the Bush and Kerry military records, no?). Think
    about all the things France did for your history until some Fox moron
    painted them with the “Cheese-eating surrender monkey”
    tag. Think about the fact that Russia, a country with whom the Cold
    War ended, is now building planes again and ask why.

    Kruger, for mercy’s sake, please – try something the
    military forced you not to do, damnit. Think.

    If you feel gutsy, YOU go down dressed in a headress and
    a beard. Take a camera, oh and pack your orange tipped pistol and
    wave it into the air as you go off on an anti-Howard, anti-Bush,
    anti-whatever tirade. Be sure to scream out loud that you have the
    right to do it. I dont think that “armed police” stuff is
    going to last more than about a second before they cap you.

    No, I don’t. I want to live. I don’t
    want myself or anyone else to die. I can say what I need to say. The
    only reason it doesn’t work is because you’ve been forced into being
    decerebrate moron who can’t see anything outside your head or any of
    the contradictions inside it. But the saddest thing is you’re
    convinced your tiny mental jail cell is all you need.

    And
    let’s make the point one more time in the fervent hope that it’ll
    make it through the block of stupidity that resides within your
    skull:

    we
    don’t
    need
    to
    kill
    people
    you

    idiot.

    I do recommend that you visit the following places to
    gain a perspective what its like outside of Oz.

    …!?

    … did a proudly right-wing, psychopathic, Fox News-watching,
    Clinton-hating, gun-toting ex-jarhead just tell me to get a
    perspective!?

    Irony has officially just died of an overdose.

    But I guess I just dont know what I am talking about
    Troll with you being the IT guy and such a world traveller into all
    of the garden spots in the world for security.

    When did I say I was a world traveller?

    I’m just pointing
    out I’m an IT guy living in Australia instead of a political
    commentator or historian; I haven’t travelled and you’ve done so with
    a gun in your hand (hey! Travel the world! Meet interesting people!
    Kill them!)… and yet I know more about your
    culture than you do of ours. And aren’t you supposed to
    be older than me if you were in military actions in 1979? You
    couldn’t even name our Prime Minister, the one to whom Bush refers as
    a “man of steel”.

    I know what Bush’s position on the Kyoto Protocol was, I know
    about his failed business venture, I know about his military record,
    I’ve seen the video clips of his lack of command of the English
    language, I know his plan post-presidency is to go on the lecture
    circuit because it’s supposedly an easy way to make and odd
    $50k.

    Here’s something absolutely true, absolutely
    regrettable: it’s people like you, Kruger – literally – who
    give America such a bad name. Bastion of freedom and liberty,
    guardians of justice, your name is now mud… because of you.

    You, Kruger; you! Americans, take note
    (although the ones who might learn from this message are the ones who
    already got the message) – this is why most of the world has
    come to hate you, even those of you who are wonderful people and
    don’t deserve such hate – you have psychopath morons like MRK who
    make their voices the loudest. This is all most of the world know
    about you. Please, educate him before it’s too late.

    Yep. I want YOU in charge of security for Sydney and lets
    cut it back to just police for the next world summit.

    Why not? It’s worked so far! The worst we’ve had – on
    Sunday night – was accusations of excessive police force.
    Nobody died!

    Summits are good. I like them because it gives everyone a
    chance to air their underwear. People that are talking are also
    people that arent shooting at each other. So the leaders of the world
    are having a chat.

    … is this you learning, or you failing once again to see the
    contradictions? Now you’re praising people not shooting each
    other?
    Are you truly so psychiatrically disassociative you can’t
    even read what you’re saying? Is there nothing in your head that vets
    these things before they escape your fingers or your mouth? Frankly,
    I don’t trust you to be capable of learning anymore.
    Maybe this
    isn’t irony, maybe you’re a victim of some post-war disorder and all
    you really deserve is pity. And heavy medication.

    As for the Chasers, I would have warned them to stop at
    checkpoint one and if they moved even one more foot they would have
    been dead. They didnt have the right to do it and they were arrested
    for it. So obviously you got that one wrong because their right to do
    it seems to be counter to what happened. They didnt have any weapons?
    How nice. If it had been a legitimate attack I guess they would have
    just checked them in at checkpoint one?

    Aaaaaaaaand there, a beautiful return to form.

    Let’s
    try getting these points through one more time: They didn’t have the
    law, they had the right – a right you’ve sworn to defend. When
    they were stopped, they stopped peacefully and they didn’t have to be
    stopped fatally.

    I really love the left wing in the world. They are
    idealistic but so unrealistic to the harsh realities. There are
    people out there and they aint just Muslims that would kill you for
    just being there.

    Yes.

    YOU, for one!

    Thank you, Kruger: Fox News frontman, right-winger,
    Bush-loving, American bullet diplomat and very possibly sector leader
    for the Christian Taleban. Say hi to Ted Haggard next time you’re out
    cruising in your pickup for some fun.

    You will appreciate security a lot more afterwards. I
    doubt you will lose your hate of Bush and Howard though.

    If they behaved like mature, compassionate and reasonable people
    worthy of being national leaders, yes I would. Until then, there’s no
    reason for me to do so. Come on, Kruger. Think. Use that
    withered lump of wrinkly and hopefully sodium/potassium-soaked fatty
    tissue that stops your skull from caving in and ask yourself why so
    many people – outside Iraq, outside the Middle East, in
    democratic Western countries – protest when George Bush
    blows into town!

    I guess they need to level someplace in Sydney to get
    your attention on that one.

    Oh, boo-fucking-hoo, they levelled our Twin Towers, let’s go bomb
    the towel-heads. You know, the ones in the different country
    because of all those WMDs
    . Did you forget I already addressed the
    fact that we didn’t go on jihad when our people died in Bali?

    Good thing there’s someone as morally upstanding as Rudy Giuliani
    to say what a great job all’y’all did. Oh, wait – clearly all
    the police and fire-fighters and ambulance crews in 2001 were just
    from silly leftist organisations too, huh
    ?

    Here’s a news flash, Kruger you pathetic, mind-starved
    developmentally-challenged cretin.

    Correct me if I’m wrong
    (somebody with more of a clue than Kruger), but sources report 2993
    deaths in the 2001 bombing, including the 19 terrorists. Guess what?
    Sources report the civilian dead in Iraq, killed by military actions,
    to be anywhere from 71000 to 77000… only up until today,
    that is. Who knows where that number will be if the Surge ever ends?

    Can you hear that? Seventy thousand! Dead by your soldiers!
    Dead by brutal, brutalised, brutalising killing machines. People
    who’ve never left Iraq, never been to America, never killed anyone!
    Innocent civilians!

    Or does the disgusting sub-human creature you are just consider
    that to be a body count equating to an approximate 2488% success
    rate?

    The week before this all started, the Chaser team were already
    skirting the edges of the APEC zone. As a previous poster pointed
    out, the podcasts of the show are available; in their first episode
    of the season, we already saw them trying to deliver clothes to Bush
    and Howard at APEC. We already saw them embarrassing other
    politicians that week.

    Win or lose, they’re already better human beings than you; they’ll
    be loved and respected more, by more, than you will be over the sum
    total of your existence.

    Kruger, I don’t know whether you deserve hate or pity. You really
    think killing people is the best way to solve a problem? If all the
    defenders are like you, we might indeed be better off with the
    invaders. Certainly they’re a damn sight more civilised than you.

    Truly, it looks as if your sole claim to being human is genetic…
    and all you’ve done is even waste that.

  101. #102 HatTrick
    September 9, 2007

    MRK: “I try to think what the people of Oz would have said if US fighters or B-1’s suddenly appeared in the sky after a “misunderstanding” and were in their perception protecting a President trying to get the Hell out of Dodge.”

    If it took (as it did on 9/11} a half hour to scramble those jets, the people of Australia might say that the president (or his SS staff) wasn’t worried about getting out of Dodge.

    What?

  102. #103 Oldfart
    September 9, 2007

    What these people did was very funny. I laughed. But it was also very stupid and they are lucky to be alive. Had they attempted that in American they would have been charged with a felony or one of those trumped up terrorist charges our illiterate Congress has passed without reading. They would, very possibly, go to prison for a long long time.

    Police or military in charge of protecting a PM or President or whatever have NO public sense of humor. Nor are they supposed to. While Kruger seems to drop off the deep right wing end from time to time(Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11), he is otherwise correct about the duties of security people. All it takes is ONE agent out there who has had a bad night or is just having a bad day or feels threatened and Bang! everything goes to hell very fast.

    Now, Mr. Troff, please point out to me ONE unprotected leader of a country on this planet. No matter how good a ruler you may be, there is always one or two nutcakes out there that doesn’t like you. We need the Kruger’s of this world because the Troff’s of this world are genetically incapable of protecting themselves much less their leaders.

  103. #104 M. Randolph Kruger
    September 9, 2007

    Troff-If you are done now, can we just move on? For the record most of us here dont run around name calling and the like. You are at perfect liberty to do so of course but its not as a rule very acceptable here. Maybe you should drop on over to FluWiki. Then length of your tire-ades alone makes it unreadable. I read War and Peace in H.S. and I dont have time to read any more of your stuff. To all I apologize for not being able to get these guys off of the blog with all of the name callling and etc by giving them my email address. Those are personal attacks and I respond to those personally, but not in someone elses yard. Apologies Revere.

    EOT

  104. #105 M. Randolph Kruger
    September 9, 2007

    Troff-If you are done now, can we just move on? For the record most of us here dont run around name calling and the like. You are at perfect liberty to do so of course but its not as a rule very acceptable here. Maybe you should drop on over to FluWiki. Then length of your tire-ades alone makes it unreadable. I read War and Peace in H.S. and I dont have time to read any more of your stuff. To all I apologize for not being able to get these guys off of the blog with all of the name callling and etc by giving them my email address. Those are personal attacks and I respond to those personally, but not in someone elses yard. Apologies Revere.

    EOT

  105. #106 nighthawk808
    September 9, 2007

    We need the Kruger’s of this world because the Troff’s of this world are genetically incapable of protecting themselves much less their leaders.

    No, we’re genetically incapable of living our lives in perpetual fear. We’re genetically incapable of uncritically accepting whatever King George decides is necessary just because he says if we don’t side with him, we’re siding with the terrorists. We’re genetically incapable of putting up with statements like, “If you vote for Kerry, the terrorists will strike again.” (The quotation marks are to show that that is a quote from Dick Cheney.) We’re genetically incapable of saving our lives at the cost of our souls. Sorry, Oldfart. It’s just some defect we’re willing to live with.

    Kruger: The old “I’m getting my butt kicked, so I’m going to run away claiming that I’m taking the moral high road by refusing to indulge in more namecalling” trick. Bonus style points for being the one to initiate the namecalling, yet whining about others doing the same to you. Usenet was invented in 1979. Twenty seconds later was the first “I’m not going to stoop to your level, so I’m going to end this discussion here” post. You’re carrying on a proud tradition. You’re not the first weasel to trod that path, and you won’t be the last. You, as are most of your ilk, are as predictable as ever.

  106. #107 Lea
    September 9, 2007

    Not even bothering to read your stuff Troff or nighthawk808, or anyone else that refuses to act in a civil manner.
    The name calling is childish and non-productive.
    Thanks MRK for trying, despite your best efforts some will never calm down and just discuss the issue.

  107. #108 Troff
    September 9, 2007

    Lea, “Oldfart”, Kruger:

    – I never said they were unprotected or that they should be. Are you incapable of reading or are you just putting up false arguments because you refuse to address what I’m saying?

    I said they don’t need to be protected with LETHAL force; and that attitudes like the one displayed by Kruger and running rampant throughout the U.S. are dangerous and also destroying your nation’s once-good reputation.

    How’s that for calm, Lea?

    … and how is it you people are so utterly incapable of comprehending this? To the point where you have to lie about your opponents to keep your worldviews?

  108. #109 nighthawk808
    September 9, 2007

    Lea: no one likes a sock puppet.

  109. Thank you for this great work.

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