Effect Measure

Stuffing the right turkeys

The Democrats are talking about universal health care. Good for them. Inevitably, though, their Party is accused of being big spenders. The contrast is always with the “fiscally conservative” Republicans. We all know (although some conveniently forget) that the Democrat, Clinton, left the country with a budget surplus (some of it accrued on the backs of the poor, unfortunately) and the Republican, Bush, has driven us into a catastrophic debt that will be paid by our grandchildren. An anomaly? Hardly:


Source: Intelligent Guess

Not only are Republicans profligate spenders, cutting taxes for their friends while at the same time ramping up spending for their cronies in Halliburton, but they spend on socially non productive items, in essence putting us all in debt for nothing in return.

These turkeys can get stuffed.


  1. #1 Michael
    November 22, 2007

    The Republicans may have borrowed and spent a lot of money, but they have protected us from gay marriage, saved fertilized eggs, and stem cells.

    This satisfies the needs of all right thinking Americans. Just look at the way America votes. No one cares about health care, the national debt, or the constitution. We have shown the whole world what is really important to us. I’m sure that Jesus is proud of us.

  2. #2 M. Randolph Kruger
    November 23, 2007

    Wa’ll Michael I wouldnt bring God into it, but its the supposition and class warfare thing…again! Its Congress that spends the money and without a line item veto the President can shut the country down, or sign the damned budgets. I might also remind Revere that the two faced Democrats will have to stay in the middle east, and our children and our grandchildren will be paying the price for security in the world. I can also remember a time when all leaves were canceled by the military because there were indications that a certain communist nation was poised to start a run for the sea from east to west. I can also remember a certain Nicaraguan who sent 500,000 troops north illegally in the 1980’s into Honduras. I guess that both were going to be on a sightseeing trip? You know, take in the winter sports and do a little human skeet shooting?

    UHC? Geez, talk about budget deficits. UHC will require that money be pulled from every aspect of life to pay for it. There simply will not be enough intake to take care of the shortages. It will be the biggest disaster ever encountered by the country and that includes Vietnam. I hear a lot of bluster about pulling out of Iraq Revere, but they just cant seem to get the votes now can they? That means DEMOCRATS who are right thinking and know what it would meant to lose this war have got it. Its going to cost billions more Revere and we might just back off a bit and see whether the rest of the world ponies up any money. If not, 300 dollar a barrel oil is in our future and any bozo who thinks we could just quit and go cold turkey green is delusional. The technology isnt there and likely wont be for another 50-100 years.

    If cost is your big problem then tell you what, lets just do the redneck dance and bomb them all into cinders as that is the cheapest way to do it. Four neutron based weapons might cost us 5 million apiece, cool. So we pull back, we nuke them from space…..its the only way to be sure.

    As for your graphic… Intelligent Guess? Give me a break Revere. The GAO doesnt even show that kind of numbers. I can tell you one thing though, each time the DEMOCRATS cut the budget for the military we get 1941, the rape of Nanking, Crystal Nights, Sarajevo, the WTC’s and Inchon. Me, I am all for the military budget to be set at a permanent 8% of the GNP rather than the GDP. They buy what they want with it, not what some asshole Congressman or Senator comes up with such as howitzers that break the breach after 10 rounds, or the Bradley.

    There is a difference between public debt and tax debt as well Revere. Public debt is the bond indebtedness. Tax debts are those incurred when you spend too much money. One one you pay the interest and the principal and you do have to pay them back. On the other its a never ending trough from which to feed the special interest groups. UHC is one of them. Once they get into your pockets it takes years to remove them. Generally after the economy goes to Hell. Gimme Jimmy Carter was a prize example of this. After he overspent the Federal Reserve started raising rates, but it did nothing for the deficits. HUGE deficits and it got to where no one would buy our paper-bonds. Then because there was no money to run the government, he raised taxes in the middle of the highest interest rate ever recorded in the US. The economy was in trouble, that finished it. Unemployment went to 9%, almost as high as it was during the Depression. Want a repeat? Push UHC thru. It will turn the government into a money mill, and they’ll just print money to make it work out. 300 dollar a barrel of oil and it will be because we simply overspent again. At least the Bush problem as you put it would self correct itself based upon the duration of the bonds. Screw that one up and watch what hapens.

  3. #3 MoM
    November 23, 2007

    [sigh] More of Randy’s Revisionist History. It took 200 years to accumulate the 1st trillion of National Debt. Reagan-Bush tripled that (to 3T) in 8 years and then Bush41 added 1.5 more (to 4.5T) in 4 years. Clinton added 1.4 (to just under 6T) in 8 years and our very own Harvard MBA has added another 3+T to get to a little over $9.1T (so far, and counting) http://tinyurl.com/yrxrsh (US Treasury)

  4. #4 Michael
    November 23, 2007

    Randy, I’m still grateful about the gay marriage thing. It would kill my wife if I had to divorce her and marry a man. I’m not so crazy about it either unless he is a really really good cook. I wouldn’t sell my body for money, but a perfect crepe suzette is another story.

  5. #5 Library Lady
    November 26, 2007

    Dear All,
    Let us be precise in our language. President Clinton’s “surplus” was a PROJECTED surplus. This is not the same as an ACTUAL surplus.

    Go to the New York Times article of Feb. 7, 2000, by Richard W. Stevenson, “Clinton, in budget, seeks to bolster Medicare program.”

    Watch for the following words or phrases:
    “over the next decade”
    “budget surplus over the next ten years”

    I found this interesting:
    “To make its numbers add up, the administration is also counting on $66 billion in revenues OVER THE NEXT DECADE from a 25 cents-a-pack cigarette tax and penalties on tobacco companies that do not reduce teenage smoking.”

    The administration would use all of the surplus generated by Social Security, about $2 trillion, OVER THE NEXT DECADE…”

    A projected surplus, NOT an actual surplus.
    Do your homework, kiddos.

    Library Lady

  6. #6 M. Randolph Kruger
    November 26, 2007

    LL who is always so cordial covers it well too. MoM to boot it wasnt any of the Presidents whose “deficits” you are speaking of. Those were Congresses and not Presidents. The Presidents put forth a budget and by 83 we had a huge surplus, a real one and in cash.The Republicans and Democrats immediately went out and spent it on some of the most idiotic crap you have ever heard of. I really liked the one in Wisconsin on the mating habits of goats. I think that in some 5,000 years of recorded history that goats have it down pat.

    But you are correct and 9 trillion dollars in debt in any manner is not a good thing. We just keep raising the debt ceiling until one day they wont buy the bonds. Then they DO have to raise taxes. When that happens the collapse begins.

    There are those that are saying that this will be the intro to the one world currency-world bucks. Our debt is on paper, not in hard currency. By revaluating our gold to even 400 per ounce it wipes said debt completely out. But it also tanks the precious metals market. That number at 1/2 of todays gold prices is about $58,920,000,000,000. For some reason its not applied to the debt. As best I can tell our gold is completely off the books. Anyone know why? I dont.

    To the other issues Michael… dont get me wrong. I abhor the gay lifestyle and to me its abomination. But I got gay friends, and have had gay friends die from HIV/AIDS. One of which was a troop of mine and I would have rather have gone into combat with 10 Ron Wilkinsons than 300 of some other names that wont go anywhere in life. Jonny down in OZ is openly gay. I consider him to be a friend but he knows my feelings on it. Being gay is an expression of his lifestyle. I dont like it but that doesnt mean I am going to get a rope and string him up for it, or put him on the rack and make him confess so I can expiate him of his sins. Nor will I in the name of a religion garrot him after he has seen the light and taken the Lord his God into his life after being on said rack to atone for his crime. Its a sin as far as I am concerned but no one to date has put me or anyone else in charge of judgment of what to do about it. I think my right wing religious brethren need a reality check on that one. I dont think they should be allowed to marry or have civil unions. That is simply government bending and the Supreme Court should have a say as to whether it is or it isnt. I will abide by their decision and work to change that law whatever it is and then have them rule on the law.

    Fertilized eggs I agree with but not stem cells as long as they are not used to clone people. This puts us into the position of being God. I also want a woman to have the right to an abortion if she so desires because it is a health thing. Instead of safely aborting one in a hospital or clinic, we get alleyside ones and then we lose two rather than one. I never liked that kind of math. Again, judgment is done by God on this one and not me.

    Stem cells can be used in the rebuilding or growing of an organ from something that used hit the bio-incinerator until a few years ago. This logic on the part of the right just doesn’t flip my skirt. Revere who I disagree with many things on got this one straight down the middle for a change and here is his post from about a year ago. Ex-communication? Going to Hell for something that would be disposed of like the trash otherwise? This is part of the ultra-right wing of my party and it is indeed the reason that we lost the House and Senate. Those candidates were out of touch with the majority of the US and they voted accordingly. Lean too far to the right again and they’ll have the Presidency.


  7. #7 Sock Puppet of the Great Satan
    November 26, 2007

    “A projected surplus, NOT an actual surplus.
    Do your homework, kiddos.”

    How about you do yours:


    Look at the surplus, both on- and off- budget, for 1999 and 2000.

    The fact neither you nor Randy can check your facts isn’t surprising.

    “Presidents put forth a budget and by 83 we had a huge surplus, a real one and in cash.”

    That’d explain that -$207.7 billion for 1983 in the table then. Again, actual figures rather than folk myths are at:


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