In July 2005 when there was a terrorist bombing in the London subway system the FBI, using a perfectly valid and legal subpoena, asked for and obtained documents from North Carolina State University about a possible conspirator. That apparently wasn't good enough for the FBI. They wanted the agent to get the documents using a National Security Letter under the USA Patriot Act. They made him return the documents and then issue a NSL:
Under the USA Patriot Act, FBI counterterrorism investigators can self-issue such letters to get phone records, portions of credit reports and bank records, simply by certifying that the records are relevant to an investigation. Unlike subpoenas, NSLs do not require probable cause, and at the time obliged the recipient to not discuss the demand with anyone, ever. In contrast, gag orders attached to grand jury subpoenas have expiration dates.FBI agents have relied heavily on the power, issuing more than 100,000 NSLs in 2004 and 2005 combined. The first audit of the FBI's use of the power found the agents became sloppy in their use of the power and one HQ office went rogue and issued hundreds of fake emergency requests for phone records. (Wired blog via Slashdot)
The FBI knew that universities (and health records) were exempt at that time from NSLs. The NSL was rejected by the university's legal council, pointing out additionally the documents had already been produced in response to a legal subpoena. This incident was then cited by FBI director Robert Mueller as evidence that intransigent universities were obstructing legitimate terror investigations so the agency needed the power to get information without resorting to the courts.
"Now in my mind, we should not, in that circumstance have to show somebody that this was an emergency," Mueller testified on July 27, 2005. "We should've been able to have a document, an administrative subpoena that we took to the university and got those records immediately."
It's not clear if Mueller was lying under oath or didn't know the information had been turned over before the faulty NSL was issued. The FBI is now admitting an NSL was not needed or even appropriate. They have no explanation for the incident.
Maybe djinning up a phony need for overreaching powers? Just a thought.
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Back when I was a cop (11/73 to 1/98), with the San Jose, Ca. PD, it was common to hear those who had worked with the local FBI unit (cops, and deputy DA's), refer to the "FBI" as the "Fan Belt Inspectors."
Egads, I'm a conservative, and I can't wait for this administration to come to an end because of crap like this. I think we need a new term to describe this kind of behavior, maybe Hooverian, or McCarthyian...
How about a thought police? I will bet you never thought your mental images could get you thrown into prison, and the key thrown away, did you? The Homegrown Terrorist Act has been passed overwhelming in the House, and as soon as possible the Senate will approve it. A politician would have to be an idiot to vote against it, since it would be the end of your political career. Please read:
It looks like the term thought police just might take on a whole new and real meaning.
This depends on what happens in the U.S. Senate after receiving House bill H.R. 1955: Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act of 2007. This act (now S-1959 - Senate version) is now being considered by Senate committees and, if passed by the Senate and signed by the president, will become law.
Common sense would indicate that something this vague and dangerous would not make it out of committee, but considering that the House passed it on Oct. 23 with 404 ayes, six nays, and 22 present/not voting, Im not holding my breath.
The most disturbing aspects of this bill, and there are many, are the definitions noted in Section 899a. The three offenses defined in this document that will warrant prosecution are:
Violent Radicalization: The term violent radicalization means the process of adopting or promoting an extremist belief system for the purpose of facilitating ideologically based violence to advance political, religious, or social change.
Homegrown Terrorism: The term homegrown terrorism means the use, planned use, or threatened use, of force or violence by a group or individual born, raised, or operating primarily within the United States or any possession of the United States government, the civilian population of the United States, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.
Ideologically based violence: The term ideologically based violence means the use, planned use, or threatened use of force or violence by a group or individual to promote the group or individuals political, religious, or social beliefs.
Besides the fact that this Act would greatly expand an already monstrous bureaucracy (Homeland Security Act of 2002), it is on its very face a threat to all ideological thinking not approved by the state. Any citizen at any given time could be considered a terrorism suspect and accused or prosecuted for bad thoughts.
This law will criminalize peaceful protest, and destroy the lives of those who are under investigation under this law. This is fascism with a friendly face.
9/11 changed everything!
(Which means the terrorists won!)
Phila-I respectfully disagree. You have had to give up some liberties for security . The pendulum always swings as it did during McCarthy. They were trying to set a precedent of power and the courts have historically thrown their stuff out. We are still evolving after nearly 200 years in this country and we have all had to endure stuff that wasnt quite right. This is one of them and it will be struck down eventually or the laws changed.
Think its bad now? Should have been around during the 40's. We had our own Gestapo and it was run by one H. Hoover.
Ken Clark: Thank you for a voice of reason from a conservative. I may not agree with you in all areas of policy and politics, but I am with you about the need for a new broom to sweep clean. I'd like an end to the Banana Republic/Eastern Bloc nature of our current administration. If we turn our country into one giant Supermax Facility in order for us all to be safe, we may as well no longer be in our "land of the free".
Randy, I don't care if it was worse in the 40s. That's not my benchmark for liberty.
Past is prologue Wench. What was used then is being used now. They simply recrafted it and put it back on the books.
It was in until the 60's when the extent of the spying on US citizens, the Hooverism if you will came to light and they reined it in.
Oh its been much worse than this. They used to get the wrong house many times and well agents got wasted and they in turn wasted the non-perp and his family. Then we had a really bad switch under Janet Reno and the Clintons who were using the NSA to spy on their political opponents. The Osama showed up.
What you are seeing is an extension of what used to be called "quick file" to stop the druggies down in Florida and other places from hauling butt before the police/feds could get in there. Will this law stand? For a little bit until they catch some senators son or daughter involved with some really bad people. The same thing happened with McCarthy, it happened to Johnson and Nixon, then Clinton and now GWB. As long as we can keep it right of center a bit and for sure not far left extreme the cops will still have to be able to prove everything. This is a warrantless search, seizure and detention law that they have. This will be abused because they just want to do their jobs. So far everything they have pulled in has been fairly much shit and only paints a big picture of whats really going on. We know they are here, we know their intent, we also know we have to have a society that responds well to the citizens demands for privacy and security. The courts provide that buffer and there will be step outs on either side. Nowadays though, you get one wrong and its a mass killing rather than a single one off drug related one.
The next president is going to have a tight wire act to walk on. If the threat drops, then okay, drop the rights of the state. If it increases, it wont be GWB or Mueller or anyone else that sticks it to us because we wont be able to afford it. They will get in, whack something and then the round ups will begin. THAT has already been deemed legal by the US Supreme Court in the interests of national security. Ask any internment camp person of Japanese descent. Deprived of life, liberty and the pursuit. The needs of the many outweighed the few.
"You have had to give up some liberties for security" -M. Randolf Kruger, April 18, 2008.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." -Benjamin Franklin,1759.
-M. Randolf Kruger, April 18,
2008.
-Benjamin Franklin,
1759.
C. Porter: There is no evolution noted.
Paiwan and C. Porter.....
Its up to you of course, but look here
http://nymag.com/news/articles/wtc/gallery/
and then decide what you would have them do? If something happens then security is lax or in adequate. If it allows a Waco to happen then its too much. With all due respect, Franklin lived in France sleeping with whores until he saw the French Revolution getting ready to kick off. Guilt by association might have led to Msr.Franklin to the guillotine. So everything in context... please. Now our FBI runs in occasionally and makes a few mistakes. How about Russia? Their equivalent forces never made mistakes. Warrants? Fagidaboutit ! They are the government and they can do anything they want and still do.
But pish-posh we should just drop our guard now since there havent been any attacks.
But then again, the LAST people on this planet you should trust is the FBI. They are now a political arm of whomever is in the White House as is the IRS. While Waxman is investigating baseball, he should make a stop by the IRS and see how they are doing. Now, there is a group that is in charge of crime.
"Hey, there's Kruger over there."
"How can you tell?"
"See the concentric piss stains on his crotch? He had to give away his electric blanket, 2 months after 9/11, after hearing a Giuliani speech."
Now Trog its not nice to be talking that way.... Is that 69 your IQ? Besides, I have no idea what you are talking about with electric blankets, pissing and Giuliani speeches. For that to be effective you have to make sense. I normally dont make personal attacks unless attacked first....kind of Osama of you isnt it?
But thats the reason you and so many others dont get this. You havent been personally attacked on your turf, or had people you know go down with falling towers. Me, I didnt either except to have the sovereignty of the US tagged on 9/11. I was too busy parking airliners that the US military was freely stating that if they deviated from any assigned altitude, heading, STAR or SID that they would be shot down. Do you think they would stop at airliners Trog if it came down to you and the FBI and your rights? They will stomp them into the ground first and you get to sue afterwards. Its as simple as that.
Me? I look for a Democrat to abuse this the most. And if you havent heard they are going to do exactly this SAME THING in Australia. You know, where they just got through having an election to get rid of GWB's puppet as Revere liked to refer to J. Howard. Now, lets see.... Left of center government implementing farther left process of wiretapping of emails and telephones... Doesnt seem to be much difference between the two governments. We are right of center, implementing a more right of center policy. You probably arent old enough to remember the 60's and early 70's. This was done nearly every day of the week. It most certainly was done during the 1940's and 50's so why get so worked up? Its history repeating itself.
MRK I agree with you a lot but comparing Hoover's FBI to the NAZI Gestapo is a little over the top.
Ken, yeah this is just another example of Bush's overreaching of powers huh? I doubt your conservative claim and I think the term you are looking for is stupid.
Weekend over, everyone starting to wake up aye?
MRK, ignore the idiot Trog. Why the heck revere doesn't edit these types of comments out is beyond me.
Pauls-I dont know quite how old you are but I was a young'un then and only became aware slowly of it as I grew up. But as I said during Hoovers days, it was indeed just that. Forgot Waco? Forgot Ruby Ridge?
Here is a little nasty from Harry Truman as he turned it over to Eisenhower. When Ike took ill things really went south under Nixon.
http://academic.lexisnexis.com/documents/upa_cis/10803_TrumanOffFilesPt…
It likely led to the loss of the White House as Hoover was a political appointee and the perception of the McCarthy days was "he was your boy" kind of mentality. It sure didnt help.
But here are some time articles that go back for years on this.
http://www.time.com/time/archive/collections/0,21428,c_secret_wiretaps,…
We got more but you get the idea. This has been going on since they invented the telephone, the drug people and the Mafia. We used to call the game "Feds and Heads" back in the 70's. They STILL have to have a reason to do it and by continously doing it without a valid reason they are starting out onto the slope again. Waxman is waiting and for this one I would give him resounding thumbs up as he is just the little sonavabitch (public figure hit) that I would want on this. The right will push against the left and I think we will end up just a bit right of center as a result, as it should be. The leftists probably would want to negotiate with them, some would join them.
Lea, pls dont name call. It is unnecessary and Trog can make his points without slipping into the shitter. Besides it burns up a lot of bandwidth.
Hello? Is this thing on? Hello?
Kruger or Kruge?
And excuse me for taking up bandwidth, good Gawd!
R. Lea. Sticky damned keyboard........ clogged up with the brains of left wing progressives.
MRK - I'm old enough to know that comparing Hoover's FBI with the Nazi Gestapo is over the top. No I haven't forgotten Ruby Ridge nor Waco but I also know that Hoover was dead long before those travesties of justice ever took place.
Sounds like a livley debate...
Forward
Left, right, or center should make no difference - as long we can agree on something.
True, it seems that may not happen currently, but what if it did?
Most (if not all) of the events mentioned here can (and possibly have had) a bearing on the topic at hand. It is most pleasing that there are those out there that have not forgotten the past.
The comparison of Hoover's FBI and the Nazi regimne (Gestapo) are somewhat inflated, but not impossible. The FBI did have some constraints put upon them (not many) so as not to exactly duplicate the Gestapo. It was a time during a real war (not percieved) and it was Hoover's time to shine. As for Waco and Ruby Ridge, these were times when the establishment was testing the waters on public reaction and tolerance to percieved domestic terrorism on US soil.
The major event (911) showed us all just what can happen now and in the future.
The folowing statements are very important, think about them carefully.
All this, in the interest of National Security ...
Although we wish we didn't have to, the statement of giving up some liberties should mean just that - some - not all. But, if we go down this road to far we will not be able to get back without force... (the rest of this, I leave to your imagination).
We have already given up a certain amount, due to the ineffectiveness of our leadership, our borders and such. This seems to be the intent as stated in the Security and Prosperity Partnership Of North America agreements . This organization is relivively new and totally without the consent of the american people and congress (at least until recently).
So, when you can see a broader picture than just your Newspaper, TV or radio, maybe you will understand this:
"Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. In the first stage of life the mind is frivolous and easily distracted, it misses progress by failing in consecutiveness and persistence. This is the condition of children and barbarians, in which instinct has learned nothing from experience."
George Santayana, The Life of Reason, Volume 1, 1905
"The truth is cruel, but it can be loved, and it makes free those who have loved it."
George Santayana, Little Essays (1920) "Ideal Immortality"