Effect Measure

The controversy over the health of rescue workers at the World Trade Center site goes on. The Wall Street area was re-opened quickly after 9/11 despite EPA air tests that showed hazardous materials in the air by direct orders from Condeleeza Rice’s office when she was National Security advisor to George Bush. High asbestos levels were omitted from press releases because of “competing priorities,” according to an article in the New York Post in September 2006 (long pull quotes in the post linked above but the new link has since been taken down). So political interference has already been documented. Tommy Thompson was the Secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS), the Executive Branch cabinet department with responsibility for health investigations and research (CDC is in DHHS, for example, as is the National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health, NIOSH). Where was he when questions were raised about whether the conditions at Ground Zero were hazardous to the rescue workers, many of whom now complain of serious health effects?

So here’s the good news. Tommy Thompson is finally getting involved with the Ground Zero problem:

The former health chief under President Bush, criticized for not doing enough to help Ground Zero heroes, is now making millions off the 9/11 tragedy, tracking the health of sick workers.

Tommy Thompson heads Logistics Health, a Wisconsin-based company that has won an $11 million contract from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to track about 5,000 workers who worked at the World Trade Center site in the aftermath of Sept. 11, 2001, and live outside the New York area. He was health and human services secretary from 2001 to 2005.

“It is ironic that former HHS Secretary Tommy Thompson’s firm won the contract to provide the services, given the history of delay from the Bush administration when he was secretary and now,” said Rep. Carolyn Maloney (D-Manhattan). “But I am glad these heroes are finally getting the help they deserve.” (New York Daily News)

Tommy Thompson is like the medical student who gets his girlfriend pregnant and then volunteers to do the abortion — for a price. The Bush administration, instead of taking responsibility for looking into the health of the people who risked their lives to save others after 9/11, saying it would be too expensive, privatized our tax money, giving it to a crony, as usual. And not just any crony, but the very person who didn’t do his job after 9/11.

Or maybe we should say it as President Bush would say it: Tommy did a heck of a job.

Comments

#1 M. Randolph Kruger
June 8, 2008

Many ways to look at this Revere. The markets being shut were beginning to take a toll and it did post of this with a very near brush with a full on recession. You might recall it was a terrorist act that brought down the towers. You know, a terrorist act which is that thing that you said that you revile having to go thru airport security for. The levels in the air were not totally known for some things, but were for others. I mean is there a level for inhaling ground up people?

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0803,thompson,78873,2.html

In addition, there simply was no precedent for what happened there. The NYPD/FD people are required by the nature of their jobs to put themselves on the line. The only thing that can be done for them is compensation for those in the line of duty. It took a week to get the dust levels down and that was done in a manner not unlike a clean up post of a volcanic eruption. Firehoses operated by firemen. The testing that was done was inadequate and in a lot of cases only because the type of testing contracted by the City and State was not for what was there. You dont test, you dont find it. Asbestos was just one of the problems. The ground zero firemen that were pulled back and made it all took hits from concrete dust. It frosted their lungs with the dust and it gave them instant emphysema, many have died since from cancers caused by other things that were obvious such as the byproducts of fire.

About the only thing I can draw from the post is that you think that the initial statements on air quality were wrong. I think anyone who was looking at the TV at the time got that one all by themselves. I havent seen you berating Giuliani who made the statement initially and then retracted it. Is it just another reason to bash?
But here is my read on the post overall. Thompson made a mistake? Well EPA and the NY Dept of Air Quality. The same thing happened to them. They were testing for the known stuff, not a full spectrum analysis. They got that and everyone figured it out. The air was toxic. I also would remind you that GWB was on site in NYC and they have held a lot of memorials there. So the site is unsafe or safe? I dont know. If it was unsafe then GWB wouldnt have been there.

This kind of reminds me of President Carters visit to Three Mile Island. Stomping around in booties and if you look at the films you can see the guy with the geiger counter in the background following them.

Too bad they didnt have blogs then?
#2 MoM
June 8, 2008

Of Course Dubya would have been there! It was the high point of his entire political career. Standing on that fire truck with that bull horn made everything that came after possible. You know, Iraq, the shredding of the Constitution,.. all that crap. Simply because of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4BkzuV0LYE We got 4 more years of that f__king moron. BTW, “The people who knocked down these buildings will hear from us… soon.”
And how’s it going with that, George? Last I heard, Osama was free & clear and you were a [expletive deleted].
#3 Gray Gaffer
June 8, 2008

The point is, Randolph, the admin a) suppressed what they _did_ know, thus leaving those who had to stay in the area (unlike Bush) without the necessary knowledge of what to protect themselves from and how, b) did not follow up with health monitoring and protection for those affected for several years because of “the expense”, and c) (almost worst of all) when they did finally decide to do the work, outsourced it to the very same person who was in charge of the decision to not provide health support in the first place. They did know what was in the air, they did test for it, they decided to not mention it.
#4 Douglas
June 8, 2008

A glaring example of how we treat the “best” citizens of our country, in irrefutable need of health care benefits. Too afraid of liability or spending too much on our heroes?
#5 pft
June 9, 2008

First of all, the Port Authority was rejected in their attempt to demolish the WTC 1 and 2 for this reason, asbestos contamination. The buildings woes over asbestos and fire insulation, and it’s age, were causing tenants to move out. A manual demolition would have taken years and cost over 1 billion dollars before rebuilding could commence. [kind of makes you wonder about someone leasing these buildings for 99 years which Larry S did 6 months before 911 and taking out an insurance policy that paid out 4.5 billion dollars]

Second, whats done is done. What are we doing for these heroes who are getting sick TODAY?. The answer seems to be, given we are now just tracking the people, not a lot. That is criminal.

Third, certainly people should know the difference between working on site for 12 hours a day for weeks, or living nearby 24/7, and dropping by for a social call and cup of coffee for a photo opportunity.

Fourth, I have never seen any rationale explanation by the media and/or government for all that smoke and heat at Ground Zero that continued for weeks, and was likely a major contributor for the health problems.
#6 Grace RN
June 9, 2008

BS is BS-let’s call this what is it.

My son-in-law showed up the evening of 9/11 and stayed until volunteers were replaced with NYC people. Despite being at Ground Zero only a few days, he already has lung disease issues.

NY’s finest and all other involved in 9/11 and/or GZ clean-up deserve better than this-maybe we should send them all to Cuba for better healthcare.
#7 M. Randolph Kruger
June 9, 2008

To all its a very touchy subject. We know who did it as he admitted it. Clinton did nothing to fix the situation until the Monica-gate thing. We lost a lot of people in the embassy bombings prior ot 9/11 and politically correct was in full play. Clinton launched cruise missiles against Africa and flew them over Pakistani airspace to get to them…. and missed. Typical.

Here is the thing Grace, its commendable that your son in law stepped in there. Tthe air quality testing lawsuits have all been filed. But was he requested or did h just show up? As an NGO, we are now required to carry insurance for these things…just in case. In fact there was no requests made for so many of the people who did. I have read dozens of reports that said people just jumped onto planes and flew in. Coordination and application of the resources there was monumental. Firemen showed up even after they werent needed for fire duty. So how to quantify that. Does the government bear responsibility for people who were not requested? Do they have a legal claim against the government for bad air in a bad situation?

The people that are sick and have died post of an attack or really any disaster recovery are covered by their own company/govt. insurance policies. Individuals are on their own. No one could have foreseen that there would have been so many cases. We have never dropped buildings before and there are those that would sit back and say we just need to take care of them. Okay so now who decides that? The ones that do that and end up as a final authority are the courts, and thats where this resides now. So far I found only coincidence and it would have been a conspiracy of the highest order to drop those buildings and have a post Kennedy die off of people in the know. Who would have benefited? Certainly not the administration or the people of the US.

Besides, does it make sense? What purpose could it serve to have the US running amok on the planet trying to kill terrorists or have Abu Ghraib? What purpose could it serve for the Pashtun’s to have US forces and Karzai rolling into town. Launch an attack and have its sources in Afghanistan and Pakistan? Did it make sense? If it was the military industrial complex it would have required conspiracy with literally thousands involved. But its the media who benefits by publishing any and all wacko theory. It sells air time and newspapers.

How does one mitigate a terrorist attack? What if post of an attack you had found that it wasnt human remains, sewage, asbestos, concrete dust, shredded money, and fire compounds. What if it had been radioactive? Those bodies would have likely remained there forever. Its a prescribed risk and those that went in if they had any training at all knew of the dangers…especially the firemen. We are all required to take basic fire fighting training as NGO’s. You dont go into a building or work in the smoke stream as its known to be toxic. The compounds generated by fires is incredible, especially around insulation, plastic. Asbestos?

If it had been a bigger attack, say a low yield nuke we would be working on radiation cases for a hundred years and Manhattan, the Bronx and Long Island would have had to have been evacuated. Everyone here thats commenting seems to think that this was either orchestrated or that post of that if you dont believe it, that we should be doing more for these people whose job it was to respond to just these types of things. There is a difference between a volunteer that is accepted as such when there is an incident and a requested specialty. Maybe you could enlighten us on what your son in law did Grace?

Firemen do not normally enter a burning building in these days and times without masks, oxygen and post of one they know that there are things in and around them that are hazardous. Someone screwed up. But in the same breath who was responsible for checking the air quality for these people? NYC and New York did it initially and then the EPA stepped in, OSHA, etc. This is where the legal ramifications of the operation come into play. What did they know, when did they know it? I dont and it will play out in the courts for years. End result is that the people who are sick will not get care if there is any for this, and if there is a lawsuit involved their families might get a little after the attorneys.

Unfortunately, its not BS Grace. Its a legal and maybe a criminal matter. The question is whether now if there is a legal case. This is the reason I am in an NGO status. If the Incident Command system was working that day and was in effect which it was only minimally and your son in law was called then he has an automatic case. If he just showed up then likely he hasnt and wont see any help unless its by act of Congress.

PFT-Valid point about Larry S. Unfortunately it was a requirement of the Port Authority to insure that property and likely the financiers such as the banks. Insurance companies have a way of not paying anyway (Andrew, Katrina, Rita, Oakland Fire, Los Angeles and Orange County Fires) so did he make anything? I dont think so. He is being sued by some 30 different plaintiffs I think and more are adding each day. Besides the value of that property had to be in the billions anyways if you consider that a floor in the WTC’s went for almost 1000 a square foot per month. Was it worth more up or down? Was it worth floor by floor revamping? So did one guy call up his friend Osama and tell him to go for a building that he had gone for before… under Clinton. Our little friend Ramzi said different. A van bomb simply didnt get it on the first try.

Also Grace… if you really think your son in law could find help in Cuba then let me know. Revere has my email address. I have friends in low places who could get it approved. I mean really, all of those people who think that they would be helped by it should go. I mean absolutely no sarcasm in that. Fact is though that if you son in law was injured he should file his lawsuit and hope for the best with his lungs. It will get down to the simple instance that determines if he was requested or just showed up. Thats the difference in this. My personal opinion is that the government should set up a special one time fund to assist these people medically if they are uninsured. The problem is that we are presenting a civil matter during what is right now very effectively a war. There are those that say its a criminal matter now, not an issue for the military, Iraq, or what have you. Do you want them to do away with the TSA and cargo and passenger screenings? Would you like them to drop all pretext to security at all?

During WWII the fire wardens, coast watchers, CD etc. even though they were volunteers they were covered as military. Time for a post reinstitution of this IMO because we are going to get hit again and this time around I think it will be some thing even more sexy than the WTC’s. In our litigious society, we cant afford to have the rates jacked up as much to do business as we did post 9/11. Hell even our car insurance went up because of the claims. Unfortunately the Dems knocked it down when it was presented (Pelosi). Both Republicans and Democrats took a look at this and decided it would be too costly. Ever looked actually at your car insurance policy. Most of them now have exclusions if your car is damaged by “acts of the public enemy”, same with your house.

None of its BS Grace. Its all valid but where is the line drawn for this? They all deserve better? Better because they inserted themselves into a situation? I respect your son for going in, but what if another plane had arrived that evening with a nuke? Then what? Our citizens had better get used to the idea that they are about to become unwitting combatants if the political scene changes in November. Economics, defense, healthcare and welfare are all going to pull on the system.

MoM-Anyone bombed your hamlet lately? Cant complain too much unless that happens or happened. Shredding of the Constitution? Seems the lefties have had that Congress for about two years now and I havent seen anything productive out of them yet. In fact they voted for the last shredder in majority… so you really cant say too much. Both Republicans and Democrats are responsible. Vote in November. Make your opinions known. Lets not talk about disenfranchisement either when they dont even show up with ID’s. Too stupid to vote.

Douglas-WADR, heroes throw all caution to the wind and know what the risks are. Anyone who showed up down there were heroes and most pay for their actions with some sort of physical harm. Unfortunately they are paying a different type of price from the rest of us. Sen. Alexander is expected in the new Congress to introduce a responders bill. Whether it makes it is a big question.
#8 Gray Gaffer
June 9, 2008

Randolph, you are still missing the point: Bush and Tommy chose to withhold knowledge, chose to encourage risky behavior that would have been more moderated had they not withheld that knowledge, chose to not keep track of the after-effects, and then outsourced a weak though expensive attempt at doing the follow-up to the very person who when in that job as part of the administration made the decisions to lie and to do nothing. None of the above would have happened with a responsible hand at the helm. Heck, a responsible hand at the helm would have listened to “Bin Laden determined to Attack the US” in the first place. The FBI already had all the intel that was needed at the local levels to foil what became 9/11.

On the after-effects and medical issues: it is already well demonstrated that a civilized society takes care of the health of its members as a fundamental right of humanity. In fact, doing so is a mark of civilization. The US government has chosen (in that respect amongst others) to withdraw from civilized society. That is why there are contentious medical issues following from 9/11.
#9 M. Randolph Kruger
June 10, 2008

Gray-You cant make that statement. You dont know what testing was done and if they deliberately withheld timely information then thats one thing, doing their best during a shitty situation. Apparently the NY people and EPA were testing for the same thing.

As for Bin Laden, you can lay that one at the feet of Clinton. He had five different shots to get him and he didnt. I disagree about your statement that the US and others have decided to withdraw from civilized society. Its just not the same society you and I were used to is all. It took years after WWII to bring it back to normal and then we got Tail Gunner Joe, espionage, and Korea. Which led us to Vietnam. Society is what we make it. If we have to go and drop the big one on a country that is harboring Bin Laden… so be it. Now thats civilized. We tell them to give him up or they are going to need to dig one shit load of holes. Civilized? Jesus we are more civilized than ever with the politically correct crap.

Civilized societies wouldnt have Bin Laden but we do and we cant touch him inside of Pakistan. I think though their patience is wearing thin and they will go after him. If he goes to Iran, then the entire country is a legitimate target if they harbor him under US law. Grounds for war under the UN Charter.Everyone keeps trying to apply criminal law to everything that has happened since. We cant get him and he sits and plots, and thinks and does everything to foil us and since we have interdicted about 12 plots in the last year, I would say that the criminal law thing just isnt working. We need to reach out and touch him. Find him and make him a martyr. Else you can expect another attack.

The medical issues from 9/11 are something we have never had to deal with before. Those peopel that had insurance are being taken care of, compensated probably not. The FDNY and NYPD are compensating their people after verification of condition. The State of NY has about a billion in lawsuits waiting on them about the air quality but the only thing that will come from that is a slow arduous process that will have the wrongful death claims and the lawyers will get rich. Those that went down there made a mistake across the board if they didnt have proper equipment. The question is going to be answered in the courts….who is liable?

We can beat this one to death here but the bottom line is that their claims are civil matters now. The Congress in its great wisdom has decided that the 18 plus billion they spent was enough in New York. Compensation is what I am hearing along with medical care but I doubt it will ever happen.

Revere asserts that T. Thompson didnt do his job after 9/11. Thats an opinion only. When he left in 05, he got a job and whether it was political cronyism or not has no bearing on the first assertion and that was that he didnt do his job. Says who? There were all sorts of hearings after this and Revere wasnt called to testify about air quality. The EPA/NYC/NY Dept of Environment/HHS all went down and took the oath. I didnt hear anyone of the Congressmen or women being critical until election time. Then everything became an issue. Big surprise. I also didnt hear anything about removals, or congressionals. Nope. Didnt happen.

So who is right? No one on this one. Do better on the next one and there will be one.
#10 revere
June 10, 2008

Randy: We do know the results of the tests and we do know they with held them. Period.
#11 James Stein
June 10, 2008

Kruger, I attended Stuyvesant High School at the time of 9/11; that’s the school located spitting distance from the towers. When they fell, the dust clouds knocked in our windows.

Rice’s announcement that all is safe and all must return to work sent I and my classmates – fourteen to eighteen year olds – back into classrooms. Many of us soon fell sick with a number of respiratory woes. The school’s PTA paid for independant testing and found the levels dangerously higher than the government was announcing.

You seem to think the only people affected were the cops and firemen, who’re paid to be in danger (as though they’re paid to be recklessly endangered); were I and the other children I attended school with paid to be in danger?

Has anyone tracked our health since?

Fuck you.
#12 M. Randolph Kruger
June 10, 2008

James-You dont seem to understand that this isnt a national problem. Its a states problem and that seems to be where this thing diverges. Everyone who inhaled that dust obviously might become ill, or is already or is already gone. What they tested for wasnt what was in the air. I know the school, been past it and yes it was covered I think in dust if the pictures were right. If they put school in and didnt do their due diligence then its not Rice or Bush or the Administration. Its local.

This health issue resides with the State of NY. They made the initial call, and then the EPA sent their guys in. They tested like they were testing around a refinery. Wrong test. Rice made a call to reopen the stock markets. Sorry, I dont think she should have made it. The New York people did their own assessment and came up with the same thing. It was safe and in response and attempt a normalcy the B.S. school and hundreds of businesses were reopened. Bad move. First time we have had a pair of towers dropped in the US. Might give someone pause if they want to “reach out” to Iran and all of these other countries that they are pandering to. As I said, we will do much better having gotten the practice. Get used to it too. We are going to get hit again. Very likely New York again.

James you are what we called a collateral in the military. If you havent filed suit you should join one of the class actions. If nothing happens then good, later though it documents that you brought the suit. If you have those air quality results I suggest you tive them to the Times. I would also make absolutely sure that you see your doctor often and document everything. I wont say I feel your pain because that would be bullshit pandering.

FU? There is a difference between myself and many here James. That is that I have been in some of the shittiest military situations out there and I am glad I wasnt in yours. This was kind of like that 1950′s nuke training film where they put troops in the desert and then popped a nuclear cap to determine the effects on our soldiers. Well, there aint a one of them left. We all were taught to love our country but hate our government and I really do hate it. It to me doesnt matter who is in government at the top nowadays. We had a chimp in Clinton who was off fighting in Kosovo without any resolutions, GWB getting it wrong in Iraq and hitting the wrong country…maybe. But for me I have a more stand back and look at the big picture thought.

Someone made a bad call on the air quality. Do you think in your right mind that anyone who is in a political situation would say lets just go and open the doors pal? The markets HAD to reopen and it was based on a decision by someone else’s information. Condi Rice I guarantee you has never gotten her hands dirty ever. I am a Republican and even I would say that about her.

Bad information will result in bad outcomes everytime. Opening schools are city and county decisions. Blame it on Rice? Please. EPA contracted a couple of companies but no one had ever had to test for all the shit in the air before. I thik that I read there were some 2500 contaminants later discovered. And those that chose to go in on their own are out on a limb and without federal help. The others will have to file the claims in what is now a civil matter. Revere might have an input here, but I would think that only a mass spectrometer would be able to determine what those contaminants are/were and that and its pretty involved to do it. I didnt hear anyone piping up that they were going to do it…ever.

But as to your situation, we can always elevate this up to the incident management chain of command. There was a state of emergency declared by the city, then the state and then GWB declared a state of national emergency on 9/14. This means that the city was in charge of the situation with support from other counties, state and federal on request as civil order didnt break down. Nor was that site ever federalized that I was able to determine. Yes they were in there doing their stuff but it was a City and State operation with a lot of investigators in and out.

As for the dust. You are talking about liability in what effectively was the equivalent of a small city getting hit by a tornado. The incident though was caused by flying bombs. What would you be saying if it had been hit by a tornado or a 15 second 6.5 quake? You have had quakes in lower Manhattan at
that level before (1960′s). What part of this is so incomprehensible to everyone?

So whose responsibility was it to open the markets? After the Federal declaration of a state of emergency it was indeed the NSA who would make the call. I would have have thought that the Secretary of Commerce would have as its a national market. Bt the schools where you were? That resides with the city and state.

Its parsing, but it has to be. This is the reason we have a command structure in the US government. I dont discount at all that you and many, many others are sick or dead. I still got a big problem with a government that will not take this to the source and kill the goddamn sonuvabitches. I mean that we should do it with extreme prejudice in a loud and brightly glowing flash. Going to Iraq? We were going in anyways. If it hadnt been 9/11 it would have been something else. Everyone knew it and we all know we are going to have to deal with Iran before they get their hands on the bomb. Lets just make sure we get all of them this time around before you have to worry about radiation instead of diseases caused by the dust.

I certainly wont be reaching out to any of them or talking it up as long as those centrifuges are turning gas into metal. Turn off the centrifuges, open the facilities for inspection and then maybe would will talk. Every day they are turning the chances of a nuclear strike by Israel go up and the chances for major US cities go down.
#13 Phila
June 10, 2008

Lets just make sure we get all of them this time around

Another genius who thinks “kill ‘em all” is a strategy.

What could possibly go wrong?
#14 Jester of Fools
June 10, 2008

What indeed…

What Indeed…
#15 M. Randolph Kruger
June 10, 2008

Phila…absolutely nothing if we get them. Or hey lets just tamp them back continuously. I certainly think that you should be a Obama supporter so that if we get a Congress, a W. House and a Supreme Court all into the lefty/liberal fold that when it does happen, they cant lay the blame at any place other than where it resides.

We have a whole group in America that thinks we should just negotiate and that has so far gotten us hostages taken, interdiction of our ships on the high seas, bombing on the liberals watch of multiple embassies, attacks on our warships, plots against both lib and conservative presidents, a former president negotiating with terrorists in the open, and the WTC’s bombed. I’ve said it before and its simple. You have to have domestic security before you can have economic security. If that requires the elimination en toto of a country then so be it. We didnt bomb them, they bombed us. If everyone says going to Iraq was a mistake. Okay maybe if you are not a military person it was. Same with Afghanistan. But Iran is pushed up against its Russian neighbor to the North and if they werent supported by Saddam, who was it? Iran is the only available answer. So, if we have to we have them by the short hairs militarily. It wouldnt go as fast as Baghdad as they have had the French upgrading their missile defenses under Chirac but we would get them without a doubt. Something under 30 days I would imagine. But remember now, they are just making electricity.

Of course Phila, feel free to put up what you think should be done…All I ever see is the offhand comments from many that say that Bush is this and that, and that its the worst presidency ever. Guess that they just didnt kill enough to keep it on your mind? Sorry but I never hear or see anything out of the liberals who make attacks on what THEY think it should be in their little worlds. Bring the troops home. Good luck on that. The Iranians would be in there in under six months and arming those militias like there was no tomorrow. We pulled out of SE Asia and now the Vietnamese control Laos and Cambodia. Talk about sock puppets. Of course you will disagree but there is a difference. The easy energy source for the free world is sitting there and its not the domino effect, its about the effects of the lights going out and cars that go no where. Its the economy…..

But of course the sniping continues with or without any comment from me. So
please, you have the floor. Tell the world here what you think should be done because I havent ever seen anything but swipes made and that things should be the way they were in healthcare and programs. Not to mention all of the things that we can no longer do because the world has changed because of the threats from a couple of pissants. Those same pissants are being funded by the people the Obamanites would reach out to. They are harboring them as well. You have that group working to destabilize Pakistan and if they do it, they get a moderate range ballistic missile capability. Oh yeah, lets reach out to them.

Only thing I would reach out to them with is a couple of thousand pounders continously for 24 hours. Kill ‘em all? Dead people dont attack you if you havent heard.
#16 Douglas
June 11, 2008

MRK: Your rants sound more like the ill-fated Col. Kurtz then ever– “Kill them all!” In the end, it only produces a bankrupt USA, and billions more once-apathetic, now-mad-as-hell foreigners trampling down the last of our cultural debris.
One simple solution is to change US foreign policy away from the “ram it down their throats” style and actually follow what all good Americans profess: Independence. Respect the sovereignty of all nations around the world, grant them independence, the freedom to choose what’s best for them, and not be threatened by the mafia style thuggery that is our current policy, and has been since the Monroe Doctrine.
But what would a blue collar, intel veteran know about how we treat the rest of the world, and how little our countrymen stateside actually know what has been going on?
The little that does get through the news media filter/censors is enough to see an ongoing pattern…
#17 paiwan
June 11, 2008

Toynbee’s “challenge and response” perhaps could portray the dilemma of American civilization a bit.

Neo Isolate policy definitely is not good response.

But the civilized international communities need strong American leadership. Therefore, we expect that American leadership would start from strong foundation of a civilized society- true freedom, democracy and the society to develop full humanness. And do unto others as her foreign policy.

American politicians would be under powerful scrutiny by their people. They would maintain clear conscience without being polluted by oil and greedy motive.

When the world starts to trust American leadership, Americans just need to say a word, not need to send soldiers out.

Then, you may ask what Americans could sustain. Don’t worry. Conscience will grow competencies. Imagine, one thousand brands in additional to McDonald so widely used everywhere in the world. Service America finally arrives.
#18 M. Randolph Kruger
June 11, 2008

Douglas-I think that when we fought the last declared war that we went south in a big way. Politically correct and the media started taking over. Everyone got rights in a big bright and shiny world. Our sovereignty was tested time and again and because no one wanted to fight a war, they called them police actions. How many thousands of our people have been killed in those?

What I am saying is that unless you want to go out and fight a war, you dont. If you go, you go to win and you do it with first political goals and then military second. The Administration fucked up for the last 20 plus years and the only guy that would have been willing to knock the snot out of Iran and Iraq would have been Reagan and he would have done them.

No, I dont support the Iraq operation because it was too little and not enough. Taking Afghanistan and Iraq were at the behest of several of our allies. Two of which were not on the list…Germany and France. Both were happily selling nuke materials to both Iran and Iraq in violation of treaties for cheap oil…35 dollar a barrel oil. Koffi Annans son was an arms dealer selling third party weapons to them.

I have no way to know how old you are but I am certainly not better off than I was in my 20′s or 30′s. There is too much uncertainty in this country and there has been for the last 25 years. Neither party reacts properly to the people and you have a racial divide that is exploited by the Democrats at every turn. The Republicans are for big business and it works to create a social divide that is tearing at us.

We have a group and McCain is one of them that thinks that the laws should be changed to reflect how much a CEO makes by stockholder votes. If a board of directors that are elected by majority vote cant get that right then now we are going to interfere with that process?

Then we get to this deal with 9/11. Kill them all is a solution and if done, it should be done with a scorched earth policy. Dead people do not bomb your WTC’s or your embassies, or your ships and they dont fuck with your economy. If there are any left afterwards it will take hundreds of years for them to recover, and best part of that is that you can see them coming. Thats where this is now Douglas, we can see them coming and we are sitting around talking about worker health in the 9/11 scene. Next time it will be something worse and if its New York it will likely be a nuke. Lose New York and you lose the country and the economies of dozens of nations. It would take us two or three generations to recover.

Kill them all? Douglas it might just get down to that. You may or may not be ex-military but all of the signs are there and regardless of what Paiwan says we are now seeing the beginning of the end. A new era and direction for this country is about to take place. If its wrong, we get whacked and it might take us. If its right we get whacked and we take them out. Whacked is the key word here.

So many people now think that terrorists are nothing but a criminal matter. That will last right up until Los Angeles, Dallas, Chicago, Atlanta get taken off the map. Criminal under the law, but also an act of war. Our patience with the war in Iraq is thin, getting our people dead would make our tolerance of Islamic fascists even less. The one sure way to stop it is to “kill them all” That is a basic military tenet but few use it when it comes to women and children. I would have zero compunction as to the elimination of any enemy domestic or foreign against this country or our allies. Waterboard, torture, whatever it takes to get the information to stop an attack. Our friends the Russians are not so comforting to their enemies. They torture them and then put a bullet thru their skulls. One less thing.

It may piss off some here but very, very few have been in the military that blog here. Armchair quarterbacking of a bad situation for all. Print this one off and in say five years pull it out and read it. By then we will have taken another hit or two.

In the end it doesnt produce a bankrupt USA if you do it right. Wipe them off the map and the wars are quick and clean and it results in what Patton and all good commanders know. Dead men do not attack you.
#19 Gray Gaffer
June 11, 2008

MRK is obviously a troll. Who else would be recommending genocide. But I will respond one last time:

MRK: “Gray-You cant make that statement. You dont know what testing was done and if they deliberately withheld timely information then thats one thing, doing their best during a shitty situation. Apparently the NY people and EPA were testing for the same thing.”

Yes I can. I quote from the blog:

EM: “High asbestos levels were omitted from press releases because of “competing priorities” and “So political interference has already been documented”.

It may well be true that not all contaminants were recognized at first. But some were, and the official releases and recommendations from the gov’t had a duty to include that information. It was not included, for convenient political reasons, contrary to their sworn duty to the health of their employers (that being WE THE PEOPLE).

Democracy requires an informed citizenry. We then act on the basis of that information, and on the assumption that its providers, our employees, are honest and open, as required by the Constitution of the United States of America. We employ Bu$h etc to uphold a very specific oath of office; it is not our job to second-guess them. If they violate that oath, and hide that violation, and manipulate our understandings with misinformation and propaganda, they are criminally guilty for every injurious consequence. Read or watch Dennis’s epochal impeachment speech from yesterday to get a small idea of just how heinously they did in fact violate our trust.

A last retort: violence that claims non-combatants can only get amplified by the desire of their relatives, friends, co-citizens, for revenge. Yes, some criminals who happened to be mostly Saudis “started it” by flying into our buildings, killing around 3000 non-combatant Americans. (the nc status of some of them may be in some doubt; several of the affected were in the business of exploiting Middle East resources at the expense of the community from which came Al Quaeda). Bu$h’s response has been to kill 1,000,000 unrelated civilian non-combatants in an entirely uninvolved country (Iraq), and displace several millions more. Who do you think is the greater criminal? At a ratio of 1000:1, would you think that an innocent country unjustly attacked has the right to respond in that ratio? If you think Bu$h had the right, then you must also grant that the Iraqi’s have the right to kill and displace 3,000,000,000 Americans in response – and with more justification than if they e.g. did that to India instead of us. That is more than all of us.

Are you getting where this leads? Extinction of Humanity.

That many people breed resistance fighters faster than we can kill them. Literally breed. And that will lead us to over-tax and eventually destroy our very ability to kill them, and they will “win”. So even from a purely cerebral computation of the outcome, violence and military action is not the answer, whatever your gut tells you.

The only sane response to 9/11 would have been to focus on arresting the 100 or so individuals responsible for planning and funding the attack, and trying them in international court. At the time we even had the full support of the entire world in finding and apprehending them. Bu$h even made the feint of appearing to do just that, in the beginning.

Then the drunk looking for his keys under the streetlight made his appearance, and we’ve been circling the crapper ever since. And nobody, but nobody, even offered the use of a taxi to get him home. Just to mix a few metaphors.
#20 albatross
June 11, 2008

The immediate effect of withholding health information was mixed, right? There was surely a huge economic benefit to not having all of Manhattan cleared out for six months, balanced against the cost of the added health impact for people who went back and were exposed to nasty dust.

But there was also an unintended consequence (something you’d think conservatives would be familiar with). When there’s a shutdown at a nuclear plant, and the authorities reassure everyone that the public is in no danger, why should we believe them? Similarly, when the authorities assure us that the US beef supply is safe, and there’s no reason to worry about BSE exposure, why should we believe them?

Once the authorities have demonstrated that they’re willing to lie to me, to sacrifice my health and the health of my family for their larger political goals, their credibility is gone. I can no longer, in good conscience, trust their assurances that my family is safe in some situation. This is a huge cost. Since I can’t trust my government to tell me the truth about these things, I have to either find other sources I can trust, or just be super-conservative when something looks like a risk.

Five years from now, when there are rumors of bird flu in San Francisco, perhaps the CDC will issue a public statement assuring me that it is safe to travel there. But why will I believe them, given that I *know* they’re subject to lie to me and millions of other people, because our health isn’t as important as not causing some politically painful economic dislocation. How many billions of dollars will be lost in the next twenty years, because the authorities can’t be trusted to tell the truth in these matters? And how often will people believe them, and end up sick or dead as a result?

Today when I go to the grocery store, why should I trust that it’s safe to buy beef? Because the authorities tell me it’s safe? The same authorities who I know will lie to me to keep the beef industry in good shape?
#21 M. Randolph Kruger
June 11, 2008

Ah but Gray. You once again make assumptions. We have been at war for nearly 20 years and thats the part you dismiss. We were attacked in some 14 countries, at sea and actually in the air. Obviously been reading the leftist press because we havent killed 1 million non combatants else the population of Iraq would be nearly nil. I want you to produce the bodies because that would mean that we in under two years of active air strikes and military ops would have had the body count. Time in motion. How long does it take to bury a body? Even with track hoes and front end loaders its not going to happen slick.

Its becoming more and more evident that you are not reading up on the facts. The CIA very likely set the President up to take the fall after the WMD’s were not found. Found is relative because the UN said they were there too. Not a lot but enough.

FYI the government doesnt have to tell you shit. Think not? Then why didnt we go charging with the cavalry into New Orleans. Why? Because it was a states rights issue. We all knew what was happening and they put it down to the incompetence of Bush. Bullshit. It was because it was a set up just like Andrew for GB1. Cant enter a state with trooops and aid without a declaration. Blanco waited for three days and we showed at 6.5. Couldnt even mobilize to do it legally.

Iraq uninvolved? Another bullshit statement. Their banks were actively engaged in money laundering of the charities money and UN money and paying off the French for illegally obtained equipment for the milling and making of WMD’s of all types. Interpol verified. That included bio stuff. Remember Chemical Ali and his girlfriend who was in charge of the bio program. Now this is all UN verified stuff. Preponderance of evidence in this is all we needed. Saddam never built a super gun either so what the hell were we to believe?

Are you getting to where this leads? I am sorry that our commanders stopped the carnage because we were just slaughtering their troops. Not civilians and those numbers are much lower than originally stated. Always collaterals but Saddam always put his factories in with the civilians anyway to prevent attacks. Who is the crim now?

There are only a few resistance fighters now. They are Iranian backed and we are going to have to deal with them too. We might not see a base there, but we will see that there is a fighting chance for democracy. To do it may mean that we have to do Teheran but if you think for one damned minute that the Iranians are going to be allowed to get the bomb then you have another thing coming your way.

Oh and whats next on your metaphors? Going to be going after small children and his wife too? Just to throw in some metaphors.

Anyone expecting the government to ever tell you the truth just hasnt been keeping up with things since FDR. They all lie, spin and use the media.
#22 Douglas
June 12, 2008

MRK: Funny you mention FDR. It was Prescott Bush, among others, who organized the attempted coup against FDR. The Business Plot, as recounted by the most decorated Marine in history, Smedley Butler, in 1934, (who) “came forward and reported to the U.S. Congress that a group of wealthy pro-Fascist industrialists had been plotting to overthrow the government of President Franklin D. Roosevelt in a military coup. Even though the House Un-American Activities Committee corroborated most of the specifics of his testimony, no further action was taken.”
The same result even after Prescott Bush was convicted of trading with the enemy–the Nazi’s– supplying them with machine guns and other materiel support. War profiteering runs in the family.

As our great country drifts ever closer to a fascist “failed state,” It takes a few courageous vets and civilians to speak up despite ruthless efforts to silence them, when they know we’re being taken to war without just cause, committing aggression as bad as the Nazis; Here’s a few:

Ever heard of Scott Ritter, lead UNSCOM inspector, veteran of Desert Storm, he served as a ballistic missile advisor to General Norman Schwarzkopf. According to Wikipedia:
“A Republican and having voted for George W. Bush in 2000, by 2002 Ritter had become an outspoken critic of the Bush administration’s claims that Iraq possessed significant WMD stocks or manufacturing capabilities, the primary rationale given for the US invasion of Iraq in March of 2003. His views at that time are well summarized in War on Iraq: What Team Bush Doesn’t Want You To Know, a 2002 publication which consists largely of an interview between Ritter and anti-war activist William Rivers Pitt. In the interview, Ritter responds to the question of whether he believes Iraq has weapons of mass destruction:

There’s no doubt Iraq hasn’t fully complied with its disarmament obligations as set forth by the Security Council in its resolution. But on the other hand, since 1998 Iraq has been fundamentally disarmed: 90-95% of Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction capacity has been verifiably eliminated… We have to remember that this missing 5-10% doesn’t necessarily constitute a threat… It constitutes bits and pieces of a weapons program which in its totality doesn’t amount to much, but which is still prohibited… We can’t give Iraq a clean bill of health, therefore we can’t close the book on their weapons of mass destruction. But simultaneously, we can’t reasonably talk about Iraqi non-compliance as representing a de-facto retention of a prohibited capacity worthy of war. (page 28)

We eliminated the nuclear program, and for Iraq to have reconstituted it would require undertaking activities that would have been eminently detectable by intelligence services. (page 32)

If Iraq were producing [chemical] weapons today, we’d have proof, pure and simple. (page 37)

[A]s of December 1998 we had no evidence Iraq had retained biological weapons, nor that they were working on any. In fact, we had a lot of evidence to suggest Iraq was in compliance.”

In his book, former NSC counterterrorism chief Richard Clarke contends that “hawks in the Bush administration, including Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz, pushed for an attack on Iraq rather than against al Qaeda in Afghanistan in the aftermath of September 11…”

And members from GW’s own team: Treasury Secretary Paul O’Neill’s “(private feuds with Bush’s tax cut policies) as well as his push to investigate al-Qaeda funding coming from the United Arab Emirates led to his resignation in 2002.
His book, The Price of Loyalty, includes the following: “the war in Iraq was planned from the first National Security Council meeting, soon after the administration took office, even though Bush had promised not to engage in nation building during his campaign.” This was before 9/11 was even a wet dream for the PNAC neocons and a nightmare for the rest of us proles. Not actually: UBL was under CIA control until 1995, two years after the 1993 attempt on WTC.

Deception seems the norm, as you suggest, but to deceive the American public on the world stage, through non-compliable UN resolutions, in order to go to war, is a justifiably high crime and misdemeanor, and the resulting invasion is better known as “naked aggression.” (Margaret Thatcher, where are you when we need you?) Aggression is punishable under international law, re: Nuremberg trials, except as it turns out when we are the aggressor.

Bush team member Richard Clarke: His book, Against All Enemies, recounts “that before and during the 9/11 crisis, many in the administration were distracted from efforts against Osama bin Laden’s al Qaeda organization by a pre-occupation with Iraq and Saddam Hussein. Clarke had written that on September 12, 2001, President Bush pulled him and a couple of aides aside and “testily” asked him to try to find evidence that Saddam Hussein was connected to the terrorist attacks. In response he wrote a report stating there was no evidence of Iraqi involvement and got it signed by all relevant agencies, including the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the CIA. The paper was quickly returned by a deputy with a note saying “Please update and resubmit”.[5] After initially denying that such meeting and request between the President and Clarke took place, the White House later reversed its denial when others present backed Clarke’s version of the event.
Not to mention Dick Cheney’s innumberable visits to Langley, unprecendented by any VP; pressing for the stovepiping of intel without the critical fact checking from responsible experts, documented by Seymour Hersh and his contacts within Langley; analysis disagreeing with the administration has been taking the blame by the administration, and you, for “faulty intel…” and Director Tenet gets a gold medal for allowing this manipulation, a scene worthy of Catch-22.2!

And now the unflappable Scott McClellan goes on record with his book. I see a pattern, leading to serious charges against the war criminals leading our great country.

Looking forward, according to Scott Ritter, who can be trusted more than GW, being he has everything to lose and little to gain in comparison:

“Although there were no air strikes against Iran by the United States in June of 2005, there were bomb blasts in the southern west Iranian city of Ahwaz on June 12, 2005. Some believe the attacks were carried out by the Mujahideen al-Khalq (MEK) organization. Scott Ritter as well as other sources have claimed that the United States, after the invasion of Iraq, have been working with Mojahedin-e-Khalq to continue covert operations in Iran.”

Ritter stated about a U.S. war with Iran: “We just don’t know when, but it’s going to happen,” and said that after the U.N. security Council will have found no evidence of WMD, Bolton “will deliver a speech that has already been written. It says America cannot allow Iran to threaten the United States and we must unilaterally defend ourselves.” and continued “How do I know this? I’ve talked to Bolton’s speechwriter.”
#23 M. Randolph Kruger
June 12, 2008

Here is something Douglas and I’ll just let it go. The UN verified VX, Sarin, Tabun and a few other goodies before hostilities broke out were in Iraq. Then they did Iraq and they found nothing, but its a big country too. Buried or into Syria on a convoy it doesnt matter. It was there.

What does matter that 600 warheads were being fitted onto missiles, some six hundred of them in S. Syria and all were being aimed at Israel a couple of years later. If you knew anything about binaries then you would know its not good to let them get hot. They did as they were loading them up and one went off and killed a bunch of Syrians, North Koreans and Iranians. Thats verified because the Israelis went in, got a couple of warheads and a body or two and samples. What was it? VX, Sarin and Tabun.

Syria of course could have made it but not in that quantity without detection by someone. The intel community gasped because the fitting of the warheads was the one thing that was clear. They were going to launch against Israel. If even 10 had gotten through Israel would have ceased to exist but so would Teheran and Damascus and I am sure they would have saved a nuke or two for Riyadh, Quom, Mecca. Even up the score and maybe set things off into a whole new level of entertainment.

So here is my point and its simple. UN verified materials disappeared overnight into the darkness as we began shock and awe. Buried or carted away…doesnt matter. It was there and they had but one purpose and that was annihilation of their enemies… genocide if you will. Something that Revere and others revile. I dont blame them but I embrace the likelyhood that this will happen in very short order somewhere on this planet. Dealing with it before it happens.

So what were the targets? Likely the Kurds or Israel. Take your pick. Just four years later we catch the Syrians via satellites loading them up. The general direction was towards Israel. This was no exercise. They were going to use them but literally we got lucky. Mighty lucky. I posted about this and the Iranian connection some time ago. What we didnt know was that the warheads were WMD’s. They all had Iraqi markings on them and the ones that didnt were reverse engineered from those they had. We saw the missiles, there was an Israeli air strike and ground mission immediately afterwards and this was a hush up op. Stunning lack of noise surrounding it.

But the launch never happened and this is what happened before the Israelis got there. A warhead expanded, blew and took out the site. Those things are known for their deliberately thin skins and the temp was just a bit too warm. Had it not, we might have been looking at how many people were killed around the globe from the nukes going off in a tit for tat. We were extremely lucky.

And now we have Iran who is happily turning away with their CNC machines building the oil fueled nuke program. Electricity….yeah right. If it were for electricity they could use gas fired turbines and build as I understand it over 100 gas piplines to fuel them. Nice and clean. Their gas estimates for known fields is enough to power the entire middle east for a little over 500 years. Electricity….

I have read several of the books you mention and S. Ritter in particular is in my opinion an opportunist. He worked for Saddam indirectly post of his military career and he has learned the game. Get into position, create a controversy, write a book. They all were responsible in some way form or fashion for what has happened. John B. doesnt need his speechwriter to make his opinions known. Iran is going down Douglas… get used to it. Even if its Obama Iran is going to either stop, or they are going to suffer the consequences. Bush might do it before he leaves… If he does then I think that will be a good thing. Set them back at least ten years. Maybe regime change too?

Most of the lefties/liberals keep dwelling in the “How we got here” Valid or invalid going into Iraq served a major military and political purpose…Removal of Saddam Hussein. Whether he had WMD’s or whatever, his ability vis-a-vis his army to cause problems was large and getting larger. We should have arrested him in Desert Storm and turned him over to the Arab Council. They would have known what to do with him. We blew it. He had a SuperGun, he had a nuke program. And he was deliberately playing cat and mouse with the inspectors. But here is something that is just too funny. Those people who were supposed to be making WMD’s (nukes) and warheads might have not made them. They were lying to Saddam (bad move) about the fact that they had them. They had some for sure, but not vast quantities. So by lying to Saddam they created the scenario. They COULDNT let the inspectors in. Because if they did they would have been found out and Saddam would have just had them shot. Of course all he had to do was open things up and we would have just looked and said okay… He didnt. A lot of probable scenario’s and this one if its true started a war. There are those that almost are defending him and his actions while being the same people who vilify ours. Crap happens. We got it wrong in part. But not en toto and the 5% solution if it was VX would be enough to take Israel off the map.

Now we have Iran who can only strike Israel with a missile, or via proxy from Syria with a short range one. There is a connection and it cannot be ignored between Iran, Syria and North Korea. Likely with Iran its oil to Norko. They were going to hit Israel in September and we simply got lucky. Those weapons would have had to have been fired within 24 hours or warheads would have been breaking open all over the place. So in effect, we missed the next world war by minutes and seconds. Keep that in mind when you comment and always in the back of your mind when you start talking about how we were misled. Doesnt matter if it was orchestrated… Maybe Pearl Harbor was too but the two big dogs were about to fight anyway. Same thing here.

I dont give one big rats butt about Ritter, McClellan, Cheney, Bush, Clinton, Plame or the nuts and bolts of this diplomatic masturbation session that has been going on for years. If you see something happening you take action first and let the fallout happen after. If you see a fire you put it out and you dont sit and observe as it starts to burn the house down. You keep on and on about all of this stuff and its not lost on me, its just that I ignore it as Revere says. The goal is to disarm Iran now, how we got here is irrelevant. We were going to be into it with these people as they use our oil money to fund their penis envy. But in this case penis envy is nukes and they got a bent about Israel. You get a launch from either side and we all might just have about 30 minutes to do something we enjoy as it escalates out of control.

Perhaps read Scott Ritters latest? This is my drift. You can be sitting on the floor of the Senate when the news comes in that Israel launched a preemptive strike against Iran and then what? Will the diplomacy have been worth the politically correct at that time? Surgical strikes by the US with conventional weps is the only way to stop this now. The Israelis have only one way out and thats tactical nukes.

Decide now because I would say the diplomacy thing just isnt working out.
#24 Gray Gaffer
June 12, 2008

MRK: This blog is about the gov’t deliberately withholding information it is sworn to provide, thereby putting its citizens into danger without their consent. You seem to think that is OK.

The rest of your rant is fully debunked in all the Intel reports that made it around the Bu$h censors. Even in some that went through rather than around the WH.

Saddam was a tin-pot ordinary dictator, not even the worst of his kind. Who just happened to be sitting on oil. And who was threatening to move into a Euro basis for pricing it. That is the only reason Bu$h went there. Everything else was window-dressing designed to suppress our dissent. He was at most a nuisance to his xitizenry and hos neighbors, and never a threat to the US. I am betting you never read the Duelfer Report. Whatever WMDs Saddam had were destroyed in 1992, and we sold them to him in the first place.

New Orleans: “Blanco waited for three days and we showed at 6.5. Couldnt even mobilize to do it legally.” Nuts. I watched that stuff live. She filed for Fed Disaster on the Friday _BEFORE_ the storm struck. They needed their reserves but they were all in Iraq. Bush refused to help unless he was allowed to take over the state militarily. Even after being persuaded to relent, it was Blackwater paras that were sent in, and they only to kill the few starving survivors trying to rescue food from the water (as looters), not to God Forbid actually help anybody. And that was his delayed response. Until the Thursday he was playing with his little friends. And his one visit was a stage set, that was dismantled immediately after he left. That you seem to have swallowed whole the WH propaganda distorting these events completely disqualifies anything else you may have to say from serious consideration.

All, ALL, of the terrorist organizations and funding before the most excessive Bu$h actions were interceptable. And were, but were stymied by suppression and inaction from the high levels up to the WH because those activities were profitable for the WH cronies. Now, he has bred into existence the teeming terrorist hordes that previously existed only in his propaganda. And he and his are taking their ill-gotten loot and leaving it up to us to clean up his mess.

OK. I’m done. Kill ‘em all and let the Flying Spaghetti Monster sort ‘em out.
#25 M. Randolph Kruger
June 12, 2008

That is pure crap Gray.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/katrina-timeline.php

What Blanco did was declare a LA state of emergency. You dont know what you are talking about or how things work. Note the statement that Brown was telling people NOT to respond without requests from state agencies. Its a CYA deal and they tried to paint Bush with the declaration stuff. Sorry. It didnt work and its all about perceptions. And you are right about one thing but the term isnt correct… Militarily. Its called federalization of a disaster. It means that a state can no longer function and as they come back they take pieces of it.

Whats taking so long? How about a written request for federalization. If I had been Bush I would have federalized it with the consent of the Democrat members. A school teacher in charge of the worst disaster in US history… Bush only followed the law. So did his dad in Andrew and he was vilified for not showing up with federal troops until Lawton Chiles signed his declaration too. Its the law. Something libs dont care too much about when it suits them. .

Blackwater paramilitary in MSY, just to kill people? Too much and here is something you might have to do…. Prove that! Show me the charges. Show me that the levees broke because they were blown too. Those scour outs are still there. I have seen them from the cofferdams that were put around them. Guess what, its going to happen again.

AS for the terrorist crap. They were being funded through those charities and thats in the intel reports provided by the post 9/11 CIA, NSA to the Congress. Even Porter Goss got that one.

And Gray, with all due respect intelligence information is given out on a need to know basis. Its classified automatically when gathered and then a decision is made to determine what should be. If it was with held then it because its a legal matter now rather than then. I think it was mostly because they had gotten their asses handed to them on a platter, didnt think about the secondary items in the dust and when they did finally test it for all of the possibles it found some of the stuff that they were testing for, and loads of the stuff they werent expecting. But, its still a states issue. Bush never federalized the disaster at 9/11. He instead declared a national state of emergency. I cant find where that was rescinded? Anyone got that anywhere? So during that declaration state they dont have to tell you squat. Wrong? Depends on your definition. Its a civil matter because of that rather than a criminal one. A NY state of emergency was also declared. So neither have to tell you anything. You have to do what you are told, when you are told to do it. Did the decision endanger people? Probably and that is not what I am arguing here. What is being argued is the liability. Who is responsible for these people? The City and State of New York plain and simple. Studies that track people to their ends have gone on each time something like this has happened… Kerr McGee comes to mind. Monsanto another. Its not criminal to go and get a job in the US with or without a conscience. The insinuation alone is enough that he was double dipping is immoral. Its a free country… for now.
#26 Lea
June 13, 2008

There’s a great deal of unhealthy dust that blows in the Utah desert where I live, we came here by choice, just like those now injured went into the pits of hell by choice.

As far as Tommy T getting the contract, that’s pure insanity and another slap in the face to all tax payer’s.