Effect Measure

I’m still trying to get my blood pressure under control over last week’s House FISA vote that gives telecom companies immunity for illegal acts. The focus of my anger is not on Republicans. Republicans have shown themselves reliable enemies of civil liberties and everyone expects them to protect the fat cats. Their votes were asured. What sends me round the bend here are the members of the Democratic Party who caved on this issue. The measure is yet to be voted on in the Senate, but Democratic Presidential candidate Barack Obama has said he will vote for it. The entire FISA act is not needed for security. The tools already exist. The law passed by the House is bad in its entirety, not just on the immunity issue, so Obama is completely wrong on this important matter of civil liberties. Not particularly out of character. Despite pathetic GOP talking points, Obama is nowhere near the most liberal member of the Senate (at least 8 other senators have more liberal voting records). This is just another example. But Obama aside, 94 Democratic House members switched their votes from last March. A non-partisan research group called MAPLight has shined a light on the vote switchers. MAP is an acronym for Money And Politics, and when they shone their light on the gang of 94 that’s what they saw: money and politics:

Democrats who switched from opposing to supporting legal amnesty to telecoms that aided the government’s warrantless wiretapping program received twice as much money, on average, from telcom political action groups than Democrats whose opposed the idea in March and again last Friday, according to an analysis of campaign donations by Maplight.org.

220 Democratic members of the House voted against telecom amnesty in March, when the Democrats unexpectedly rejected a Bush-backed Senate spying bill. But, 94 of those switched their vote last Friday, supporting a bill ironed out by the House leadership that expands the government’s ability to conduct blanket wiretaps inside American telecom facilities and freeing those companies from the 40 or so lawsuits pending in Federal court.

Maplight.org analyzed the contributions to both sets of the Democrats and found that those who switched their votes received, on average, 40 percent more money in campaign contributions over the last three years from Sprint, Verizon and AT&T’s political action committees. (Wired News)

If you include Republicans, the pro-immunity voters received more than twice as much in campaign contributions from telecom political action committees as the anti-immunity voters. Of course correlation doesn’t mean causation. But it’s hard to argue in this case that the companies naturally contributed to congressthings who had honest opinions that favored them, because the telecom 94 were on the other side in March.

A more reasonable interpretation is that the streetwalker 94 were bought off. Sort of like doctors pimping for Big Pharma.

Update: Democrats that behaved courageously: Mike Haubrich, in the comments, makes the excellent point that in contrast to the sell-outs (you can find their names in the MAPLlight link in the post) there were also over a hundred courageous House members who weren’t intimidated by accusations of being soft on terrorism. They stood up for the Constitution. You can find their names at his site, Tangled Up in Blue.

Comments

#1 Joan
June 28, 2008

I too care deeply about civil rights and FISA as it was, was scarey! It’s my understanding that in the newly tweeked form a warrant is required now ~ as in other areas of law enforcement and surveillance ~ vs the way it was used disregarding personal rights.
Re the immunity for the companies called into the debacle ~ can a government that asked them to participate then punish them for doing so? I think not ~ not if we believe in who we’re trying to be. Ensuring legality and rights is the responsibility of government ~ where were we I think would be the better question.
#2 PhysioProf
June 28, 2008

I have speculated that high-ranking Congressional Dems are being politically blackmailed by Republicans, using the fact that high-ranking Congressional Dems were made aware of, and thus complicit in, very egregious shit: illegal spying and, maybe, even the torture scheme.

http://physioprof.wordpress.com/2008/06/19/dem-leaders-show-their-true-color-motherfucking-red/
#3 Godwin
June 28, 2008

“can a government that asked them to participate then punish them for doing so?”

I’d have to check, but I think there is a precedent established on the case of “only following orders”. I think that one involved military personnel, though, so I don’t know if the defence would work as well for a civilian corporation.
#4 revere
June 28, 2008

The telcoms weren’t ordered to do it. They were asked to do it and not all of them did. It was a voluntary and deliberate and knowing breaking of the law. They were under no legal obligation to do it, any more than the Watergate burglars were under a legal obligation to break in to the DNC offices.
#5 M. Randolph Kruger
June 28, 2008

But really you all have it wrong. The State of Emergency declared by GWB post of 9/11 really gave them the authority to tell the telecoms what to do anyway. Sure, its a legal issue and maybe the telecoms should have gotten a legal opinion. But if it had made the Supremes it would have held without a doubt because even they want the President to be flexible in times of emergencies and attacks.

The same thing happened under Roosevelt in ’41 and he simply ordered it done. There were civil liberties lawyers then but they were simply batted aside because the needs of the government and people outweighed the needs for civil rights of the few. The problem with the Democrats is very simple. The law is there and applies only when its applied to someone other than them. This is the difference between what should happen and what does happen.

While granting immunity to the telecoms is a major part of it, it give the government the right to spy for a change on US citizens. It just takes the geography out a bit. Before, we were spying on US citizens from Canadian, Australian and British soil. The Clintons were good at that and used it against their political enemies. Nixon did too but the technology wasnt as good then. FISA now allows them to spy on US citizens but without the heavy handedness of the J. Edgar days.

Can FISA impinge on your rights? Sure can. But those rights are still not limited under the Constitution. They still have to follow guidelines and if they dont, someone on the law enforcement/prosecution side of this fence is going to go to jail.

I also remind you that the Democrats vilified GWB and the use of the telecoms during the last 7 years and vomited their usual crap out onto their beloved left wing media. They of course seized upon it, tore it apart and said we are getting screwed and now they will vote to approve this. There are always two sides to a coin.

I wonder Revere if they might have seen something in the classified briefings that makes even those Democrat Senators want to have this FISA bill approved? I have often said that I would march in and level a city to protect even one American citizen or one of our allies. Might it not be that even the leftist Democrats and the rightist Republicans have seen something that frightens them?

Take a chance, think about it a bit and decide on your own and then make the call. I have seen enough in the intel briefings about whats being cooked up on the opposition side of the world to make me prepare for the absolute worst. That being of course the leveling of New York City.

Intel and security lapses are what people call it when two buildings, a wing of the Pentagon and an airliner goes tactical. Law enforcement is what its called when you try to apply police tactics to a military situation.
#6 Mike Haubrich, FCD
June 28, 2008

While you rightfully slam the slime who vote for this POS FISA legislation, I also wish to thank those who voted against it. They were not afraid of being called “soft on terrorism.” There is a list of them here at my site Tangled Up in Blue Guy.
#7 revere
June 28, 2008

Mike: Many thanks. Very useful and good to point out. I will add an update to highlight it.
#8 Mike Haubrich, FCD
June 28, 2008

Thanks, Revere!
#9 Colugo
June 28, 2008

revere: “who weren’t intimidated by accusations of being soft on terrorism.”

Here’s an alternative hypothesis: maybe congressional Democrats who voted for FISA (or at least not all of them) did not vote that way because they felt intimidated, expediency, political opportunism etc. Maybe they voted that way because that’s what they believe.
#10 pft
June 29, 2008

The CEO of QWEST refused to comply. According to his testimony in his trial after charges of insider trading (see what happens when you do not go along), they were asked to spy on citizens 6 months BEFORE 9/11.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/12/AR2007101202485.html

So it had nothing to do with the state of emergency declared after 9/11. This is what petrifies them, if it went to trial and it became publicly known that the government was spying before 9/11, then it might come out as to who was being spied on then. Could be a smoking gun there.
#11 pft
June 29, 2008

As for intimidation, I am also reminded that those anthrax attackers have never been caught. The attack was obviously a right on left attack. Message received?

Senator Paul Wellstone was one of the dissenters in the run up to the wear on Iraq and an opponent of Bushs power graps post 9/11 was killed in a plane crash that suspicous and was handled in a strange fashion, since NTSB allowed the FBI to take the lead and di not mention this in their report.

JFK and RFK were both democrats and took a bullet for going up against the PTB.

Larry Mcdonald, a victim of KAL 007 who below the whistle on aid and trade with the Soviets was supposedly shot down by a Soviet missile.

JFK Jr who may have been planning a run on the Presidency in 2000 went down mysteriously in a plane crash 1999. The contradictions in news reports led to speculation that it may not have been an accident.

Yeah, I think some of those in Congress are intimidated.
I would. Especially this spying on citizens allows them to trage Congress and pretty much everyone might have something that is a technical violation of one law or another, and they can be Spitzerized at a moments notice.
#12 Colugo
June 29, 2008

Is pft the left wing conspiracy theorist version of a Poe*?

*Parody of a fundamentalist that cannot be distinguished from the real thing, or vice versa.
#13 M. Randolph Kruger
June 29, 2008

PFT-Yep, and it just might turn out to be WJC and any information passed on by that administration to Congressional members or their staff would be a felony.

Young Kennedy wasnt certified to fly in the conditions he died under. No mystery there. CFIT…..

Qwests CEO started selling stock in advance of what was known to many insiders and that was that the contracts were going to be pulled. He was grabbing at straws and those documents that were unsealed didnt get him a new trial, and since he stoked the money away in offshore accounts all he has to do is wait for the clock to tick in a federal prison doing weeds and seeds and he can leave the country a near billionaire. The judge can only sentence him via federal guidelines and the most he will see is 85% of 5-10. He can also refuse parole and serve it out, then climb onto a plane and leave. Good work if you can get it. None of this stuff came out in his trial until he was convicted. Hmmm……

KAL 007 was definitely shot down by a Rus missile. Generally believed to be an ATOLL.

All accidents/incidents involving elected federal personnel, appointees is investigated by the NTSB, but does not defer to the FBI. If the accident/incident is found to have criminal implications then it becomes a crime scene and then the FBI investigates the criminal activity, but not the safety issues surrounding it. The FAA takes a purely back seat until the NTSB returns with their determinations and makes recommendations. E.g. Dont let Arabs get onto planes with box cutters…. Dont let them buy crop dusters in S. Florida either.
#14 Tulse
June 29, 2008

But really you all have it wrong. The State of Emergency declared by GWB post of 9/11 really gave them the authority to tell the telecoms what to do anyway.

Can you cite what constitutional principle allows this? What, if any, limits do you think there are on executive authority?

Sure, its a legal issue

Man, that’s an understatement. Of COURSE it’s a goddamned legal issue, and was ILLEGAL until Congress retroactively allowed it.

and maybe the telecoms should have gotten a legal opinion. But if it had made the Supremes it would have held without a doubt because even they want the President to be flexible in times of emergencies and attacks.

That would be why the Supreme Court has determined three times that the incarcerations without habeas corpus at Guantanamo are unconstitutional.
#15 albatross
June 29, 2008

Randolph:

The critical question is whether that secret briefing went along the lines of:

“And here’s where Ishmael and Achmed had the dirty bomb set up to go off in Chicago….”

or along the lines of:

“And here’s where you and Buffy and Mandi went into that hotel room….”
#16 Pierce R. Butler
June 29, 2008

The FISA vote is just a cherry on the double-layer turd cake of continuing to fund the war on Iraq and refusing to impeach.
#17 James M Tom
June 29, 2008

” What sends me round the bend here are the members of the Democratic Party who caved on this issue. The measure is yet to be voted on in the Senate, but Democratic Presidential candidate Barack Obama has said he will vote for it.”

And that “sends you around the bend” does it?

Well, you ain’t seen nothin yet.

Obama has to do this, cause he wants to be the Prez!

Did you think there was some integrity hidden deep in there some where?

I mean, here is a guy who “on principal” did not wear the American Flag on his lapel.

Ok I guess, well not really if you are going to be the Chief defender of the Flag and Country, but…

Now though, Obama can not have enough of these flags all around him where ever he goes.

Where was the principal here? Where was the belief in his convictions?

I suppose that was the first “change” that we could believe in.

Then there was the public funding “pledge” and…..

Well, as I said, you ain’t seen nothing yet.

The funny thing is that none of us has ever asked a few simple questions of the Democratic candidate.

The funny thing is that none of us has ever asked a few simple questions of the Democratic candidate.

What change will you bring on Obama?

Its no good saying that you will change all the bad things in Washington.

That is just er…manipulation of your mind.

Can you please describe to us a few specific CHANGES that you will make happen, in the way Washington works?

How will you bring this change in the way Washington works (once we know what it is) Obama?

Most importantly, when will this change in the way Washington works (once we know what it is) happen Obama?

If we do not ask these questions, then we should all be held responsible for what may follow in the world, if another Trainee President gets elected to the White house.

As if to warn us all, Israel, has today re confirmed that it is not going to wait for the global community go their softly softly negotiation while Iran gets the Bomb.

If that was not not enough, the Islamic version of the Rapture according to the Islamic time table is fast approaching, making it very attractive for certain factions of the Islam to have the Armageddon, the final war with the infidel.

They mean Armageddon literally, as it is written that the infidel will be destroyed in the final war in a place called Armageddon.

Not to mention, Africa, China and the re emergence of Russia as a super power aiming to go for world domination one more time.

So you see, there has NEVER been a more dangerous time, to let a novice loose on the world, with uncontrolled power.

At best, a well meaning but still naive and untried novice.

Imagine, a black JJimmy Carter!
#18 James M Tom
June 29, 2008

” What sends me round the bend here are the members of the Democratic Party who caved on this issue. The measure is yet to be voted on in the Senate, but Democratic Presidential candidate Barack Obama has said he will vote for it.”

And that “sends you around the bend” does it?

Well, you ain’t seen nothin yet.

Obama has to do this, cause he wants to be the Prez!

Did you think there was some integrity hidden deep in there some where?

I mean, here is a guy who “on principal” did not wear the American Flag on his lapel.

Ok I guess, well not really if you are going to be the Chief defender of the Flag and Country, but…

Now though, Obama can not have enough of these flags all around him where ever he goes.

Where was the principal here? Where was the belief in his convictions?

I suppose that was the first “change” that we could believe in.

Then there was the public funding “pledge” and…..

Well, as I said, you ain’t seen nothing yet.

The funny thing is that none of us has ever asked a few simple questions of the Democratic candidate.

The funny thing is that none of us has ever asked a few simple questions of the Democratic candidate.

What change will you bring on Obama?

Its no good saying that you will change all the bad things in Washington.

That is just er…manipulation of your mind.

Can you please describe to us a few specific CHANGES that you will make happen, in the way Washington works?

How will you bring this change in the way Washington works (once we know what it is) Obama?

Most importantly, when will this change in the way Washington works (once we know what it is) happen Obama?

If we do not ask these questions, then we should all be held responsible for what may follow in the world, if another Trainee President gets elected to the White house.

As if to warn us all, Israel, has today re confirmed that it is not going to wait for the global community go their softly softly negotiation while Iran gets the Bomb.

If that was not not enough, the Islamic version of the Rapture according to the Islamic time table is fast approaching, making it very attractive for certain factions of the Islam to have the Armageddon, the final war with the infidel.

They mean Armageddon literally, as it is written that the infidel will be destroyed in the final war in a place called Armageddon.

Not to mention, Africa, China and the re emergence of Russia as a super power aiming to go for world domination one more time.

So you see, there has NEVER been a more dangerous time, to let a novice loose on the world, with uncontrolled power.

At best, a well meaning but still naive and untried novice.

Imagine, a black JJimmy Carter!
#19 revere
June 29, 2008

Actually, I’m imagining a 71 year old George Bush.
#20 M. Randolph Kruger
June 30, 2008

Tulse-There is a big difference in a state of emergency and GITMO. Bush fucked up when he didnt declare them enemy soldiers and then he could have tortured them, and held them until the end of their natural days. This was done to German, Hungarian, Japanese and Italian prisoners and they were afforded the Geneva Convention rather than writs of Habeas. Fucked up as far as I am concerned. Uprisings could have been dealt with by automatic fire and escapes? Well brother 50 of those released bastards have been back in combat in Iraq and Afghanistan. I guess you support releasing more? Lets give them 5 years for good behavior and put them back onto the street. I’ll give them your address if you want to post it. But to answer your question, under a state of emergency the Constitution is in place but is always on questionable grounds. Actions taken to maintain civil order are specifed in the Constitution, and every States Constitution. Some are more broad, some more narrow. BUT, in a federally declared state of emergency you could have your house bulldozed and you would only have a civil claim if in the opinion of federal officials decided to do it. In martial law, you might not have a civil claim at all. Congress has always given cover to the feds/prez when the shit hit the fan…..Want to be a Nisei in S. California on the high desert in 1941? The civil cases finally made it to the Supremes some 30 plus years later and they were found to be Constitutional. Your supposition that what was done was illegal. Okay thats a valid opinion but statutory and common law have found that to be in error on many cases. So now they can spy on you from US territory… So what? They have done it since the 50′s from Canada, the UK, Australia and two or three others. Lookup ECHELON in a web search. You think this gets your knickers in a wad?

Pierce-Cant impeach if the information presented to all was the same that the President got. So far there has been no indication that this was the case. Cooked up? Maybe, by the CIA and Tenet but they all got the briefing and the Congress issued a resolution after Bush asked for it. Wrong? Who gives a shit, we were going to have to go in there anyway eventually. All of those yo-yo’s want to do one thing and that is to seize control of the Straits. This is the prime reason that we or the Israeli’s will move in the next few months against the Iranians. Its inevitable. Get the DVR set to go because its going to be fast and furious. I personally hope its us rather than them. Old scores for starts and second of all it will inflame the Muslims either way, so its better for us to do it. Mind, the Security Council has warned them this time that their position on inspections, and development of a facility for electricity doesnt honk on down there. They have over 32 trillion cubic feet of natural gas and for what they have spent on the “facility” they could have covered the country in wires, LNG tanks and either pipes or railcars to fuel it ….get this 22 times over. Its not for electricity, its for a bomb and one that will force the US Navy out of the Straits permanently. Thats simply not going to happen. Sorry. Now our national interests are at stake.

But about that war. Me, I am all for full on declarations of war from now on and none of this war by resolution. We have seen what happens such as the Gulf of Tonkin, the Korean non-war WAR etc. All out war releases the political correctness of the lefties who want to sit and negotiate with terrorists. I have said it before, they simply didnt kill enough people in New York. I guess when the place is on the ground or a ghost town the people will finally figure it out. Or how bout LA? Dallas, Atlanta, Chicago? But we are ignoring a problem and that is that we are trying to apply law to lawless people. Laws are for people who obey them. Those same people know that there are consequences, these do too and they dont care. They think they are doing Gods work. So do some of the religious groups and people here in the US… different bent though.

Albatross-There have been seven interdictions of terrorists and one of those was going to drop the Brooklyn bridge. He had a full on system ready to go and was in the process of hauling his stuff onto the bridge during the night… The NYT buried the story on page 23 and then said it was inept, unable and a feeble attempt to drop it. Uh-huh. Cut the cables and then the bridge goes. The NYPD had commissioned a study to see how this could be done and undetected. His outlined plan was in exactly the areas that were shown. Hmm.? Dont forget Fort Dix either. Those guys were convicted of what? Certainly not speeding.

And Tom-You failed to mention that in addition to insuring those 34 million uninsured Americans that he (Obama) is going to include an addtional 15 million illegals in the fray. So 1/3rd of America is going to end up insuring 2/3rds. Yeah, thats going to work Jimmy…urps, Hussein.

So Obombme later may be the next Jimmy Carter and the country will be broke, very green and no one will have a job. 350 billion in the red now for this fiscal year. Cant close that gap with anything but taxes and cuts in spending. But dont worry, fearless leader who has no birth certificate that states he IS a US citizen who was born in the US and not in Indonesia has it all figured out. Its all about change. Change for the future, change for the better. Change that is defined as WHAT? He will collapse the economy in socialist/marxist programs and ensure that he gets the votes every time in Congress. Change? You cant handle the change!

Oh, dont worry Revere about GWB, if they find out that Obama is not a US citizen then they will have to declare a new election I believe. Its about the law. Its about a valid birth certificate and unless the FBI is able to get it for him, Hillary will be your next candidate. Obama would have to be removed by law if he makes it in and he isnt a legal citizen. Another illegal we have to deal with.

Lotsa questions, no answers out of Obama’s camp. I DO want an answer on this. If he is good to go then run Obombme, run. You know he is the same guy that was spouting off like Murtha that we were strafing women and children and that our Marines were cold blooded killers of the same. Seems that the courts have found that to be wrong too.

I dropped all references to race some 20 years ago unless its shoved into my face. Obama isnt a black man running for office. He is an American standing on his ideals, or lack of them in my opinion. Sitting around saying that he is for change is load of crap. Lets hear the nuts and bolts of all of this stuff he says he is going to do and especially how he is going to do it. McCain too.
#21 Ed Darrell
June 30, 2008

Well brother 50 of those released bastards have been back in combat in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Got a good source on that? I doubt it. One more place where hyperbole wins over substance, I think.
#22 Ed Darrell
June 30, 2008

Kruger, Korematsu’s imprisonment was determined to be uncricket, Constitutionally. Such an internment is unlikely to be supported by the courts today, I think. See here for brief explanation:
http://www.crf-usa.org/terror/korematsu.htm
#23 M. Randolph Kruger
June 30, 2008

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/05/07/gitmo.bomber/

http://www.wash0ingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/11/AR2007091102678.html

In fairness though, here is a PDF created by several that attempts to put pie charts, graphs etc. onto a wartime situation. Again, this is the difference between a declared war and one thats being waged by a group of people that have no uniforms as required by Geneva. Out of uniform in a Geneva situation is ground for immediate execution. Perhaps we should execute them rather than holding them as detainees for the rest of their lives. If you take them as POW’s they are covered rather than this bullshit of “detention”. You can hold them as POW’s under Geneva. You can interrogate POW’s and there are specific approved methods but these people are in la-la land for what can and cant be done to them. This is what I think the furor with the Supremes decision is.

I for one understand their logic but for me its slanted towards very probable threats and forgetting the consequences of getting it wrong. There are those that say we infuriate them and I say thats kowtow to people that are running with petro dollars to everyone who can make them a new toy. That new toy being a nuke, dirty bomb, bio or chemical attack. The rights of the likely against the rights of our own people. What city will it be next time and I say next time is just around the corner.

Declare wars and not resolutions to engage in military actions. Then when its time to leave, you sue for peace and you get specific things and so do they and each side agrees to it. Violations will be met with another declaration of war by either. Terrorist activity should be a reason to go after them and only in a declaration of war. If they are not actively suppressing their home growns, then we might have to do it for them?

Ed-”Korematsu v. United States, 323 U.S. 214 (1944)[1], was a landmark United States Supreme Court case concerning the constitutionality of Executive Order 9066, which required Japanese-Americans in the western United States to be excluded from a described West Coast military area.

In a 6-3 decision, the Court sided with the government,[2] ruling that the exclusion order was constitutional. The opinion, written by Supreme Court justice Hugo Black, held that the need to protect against espionage outweighed Fred Korematsu’s individual rights, and the rights of Americans of Japanese descent. (The Court limited its decision to the validity of the exclusion orders, adding, “The provisions of other orders requiring persons of Japanese ancestry to report to assembly centers and providing for the detention of such persons in assembly and relocation centers were separate, and their validity is not in issue in this proceeding.”)”

This is the short version but your post covers it from a left wing point of view. They got screwed. They were our citizens. These clowns were not. Its not about detaining US citizens. Its about extending habeas to people who are in limbo. The Prez got bad advice on how to handle them. Its about American Talibans, and riots in France. They are by the uterus and the law taking over there, the same in the Netherlands.

And of course Ed, it became a civil matter rather than a criminal one for the detention of the Issei and Nissei and that is all that these people would ever see, probably not in their lifetimes either. A 20,000 cash settlement by the Carter Administration. I also heard they had to pay taxes on it…typical. What the Hell they got us in the backside anyways….Toyota, Honda etc.
#24 M. Randolph Kruger
June 30, 2008

Sorry but it didnt post the PDF. Here it is with apologies.

http://www-tc.pbs.org/now/shows/230/guantanamo-report.pdf
#25 bigdudeisme
July 3, 2008

yada yada yada

In a year or two just be ready when they declare that the Constitution is not valid anymore and your individual rights are curtailed under martial law.

It is not about the right or the left anymore. The Dems and the Rebpubs are voting their true colors more and more. They are forming a new totalitarian government day by day and you don’t even notice.

They have have you pinned down with $4.00 gas and high food costs. You’re homes are worth next to nothing now and it is getting worse. You’re stocks are going south. The banks pay you next to nothing in interest. Companies are laying people off or going out of business. What else can happen in this messed up economy and country?

Are you’re candidates offering any real solutions that will give you any relief soon? Heck no. Can they stop the war anytime soon? Heck no. Can they stop the terrorists? Heck no. What good are they then? They are just for show to keep you entertained. They keep the struggle between the right and the left going, while the real rulers keep the Plan going forward.

You had better become true patriots soon and wise up. Your country is being taken from you.
#26 revere
July 3, 2008

bigdude: And you are suggesting, what?
#27 M. Randolph Kruger
July 3, 2008

Big Dude…The UK just lost their in the last 12 hours and as they say, the shit has hit the fan.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1031611/Sharia-law-SHOULD-used-Britain-says-UKs-judge.html
#28 M. Randolph Kruger
July 9, 2008

And finally, the drum roll please…. FISA rules are complete along with immunity for the telecoms as predicted.

Typical Democrats, say one thing and do another. Two of the biggest opponents Specter for one voted for it

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5879359.html
#29 revere
July 9, 2008

Randy: A shameful day for supporters of the 4th Amendment.

Just to correct your comment: Specter is a Republican and every single vote against this terrible bill — and their were 28 of them — were Democrats. Every Republican, including Specter, voted for it, more than half the Democrats against it. Obama voted forit, as did Biden and a bunch of others who should have known better. This was wrong and I am deeply angry at Obama and all the Democrats who caved and every single Republican whose respect for the Constitution is zero. Shame on them!
#30 M. Randolph Kruger
July 10, 2008

Well Revere I only posted it for those who didnt know. You aint worried about. Your heart is pure. The others are politicians and thats lower than whale shit as you are well aware.

I still think its necessary but another read is that they need to come up with guidelines so there is no unrestricted surveillance of people FISA courts/warrants would be much better and have something like a duty tribunal available 24/7. Right now they can listen as I understand it for 3 minutes and have to have something a bit more sexy than tennis shoes being discussed. That might have just gone away. I dont know. I certainly dont want it used against domestic political enemies as the Clintons did with Echelon. Budget for K. Stars prosecution of the President had something like 150,000 for scramblers to be put onto the phones.

Okay so the law is there now. If it gets abused then I’ll join up with you and get rid of it. Broad net has been thrown, lets see if its even necessary or if it catches anything.

Bests.
#31 M. Randolph Kruger
May 30, 2009

I have waited a bit for this. I wanted all of the spending to get in. All of the government take overs, the control of the banks, the transfer of wealth in the country to start so that I could clearly call Obama a communist. I was wrong and I apologize because he isnt a Commie… He is a Marxist. Yes, Obama and Barrney Franks and Chris Dodd have all shown their true colors and its deep, deep red. They are Marxists through and through.

They have transferred now instead of a couple of million to ACORN with deep intent to right wrongs, to now 7 BILLION dollars under this administration. They have spent us into 63 TRILLION DOLLARS worth of long term debt. Every government dollar is now funded by 50 cents worth of borrowing. They have doubled-down on the debt and we will still have….debt. All of this doesnt come to pass on our watch. No way. Change we can believe in? Sorry, printing money is inflation, inflation is a disaster and then when it happens, it explodes. The Financial Times two days ago blasted Obama for this spendathon and Robert Gibbs the press secretary said that he would have to move to the sports section to get the –”truth” from the British news media.The writer also said that he believed that due to the bond indebtedness of the US that inflation… on current dollar value would be 100% in five years. Even under Carter it was about 27%. So what do we do? Its either cut spending or increase taxes and the interest rate. 100% inflation isnt going to be tolerated very well. But history is repeating itself but its on a grander scale and its going to do us.

I wonder if this is part of the reinventing of Amerika? Now the scenario begins to play that I have stated. Green is going to double your electric bills. Cap and trade will take about 8% of your income, your income taxes are going probably stay the same but there is now a vis-a-vis suggestion of a national VAT sales tax to pay for health care. So in fact you will now be taxed at all levels of your existence. You eat, you pay. So the poor will get poorer and they will throw more money at them as it becomes worth less and less. You will pay 3 to 5 fimes for one item to be delivered to you as a consumer. Gasoline? Hey remember that 38cents a gallon that Carter put in to develop alternative energy sources? We still have it, we still dont have an energy source and Obama is talking about another 25cents. Coal was Jimmy Carters big thing remember? Some of you can likely that coal was his big plan. Not one drop of gas or energy did it produce that 38 cents. Now they want another 25.

Back on track. Obama is not even a socialist. The following message is written by a former Commie and writing for Pravda. The writers message ? Obama is Communist/Marxist and our electeds are not putting a name on what has been done and how. But EVERY plank is in from the Communist Manifesto and I recall the “Tale of Two Cities” as great and powerful France began to fall. This commode is flushing and the response is going to be jerky and violent. It wont happen now, but it will soon.

http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/107459-0/

Anyone who voted for Obama is going to regret it. But I freely admit that the far turn to the right under Bush gave us the result of what we have now. Always has in history. Revolution also follows when it gets too onerous as well. There were those of you who swore GWB would declare martial law under a contrived emergency. Didnt happen and as I said he and Cheney left quietly and on schedule. I think the chances of Obama not going quietly are large and it wont be contrived. The country is going to take another hit economically as we move instead on the rising part of a U to the peak in the middle of a W. The second part of the W will be long and extended. Workforce? This will put upwards of 20% out on the second pass as all of the taxes will come to bear at the same time that the spending begins to peak and we have to do SOMETHING.

Stick around. When those of you who voted for him figure it out, it will already be way too late. Just about 2010….start counting. This guy is as Pravda says, “A Communists, Communist” Print it up and save it and watch to see if it comes true. Most of what I said would happen under this guy has already. I am just trying to understand how indebting the US with 63 trillion in spending is going to result in less taxes. Thats only 400,000 in taxes to every household in America. Get your ass to work, you work for the state now.

God Save the United States of America
#32 donna wilson
November 11, 2010

man funny. new bear behaving badly. when dvd out.
blue bear not like cat. blue bear love ice cream.
where boy when back in bear behaving badly.
i want copy dvd.
mabye you have dvd in hmv and tesco.
lady one best friend to blue bear.
man one best friend to blue bear.
girl one best friend to blue bear.
blue bear two best friend to other.
blue bear dream to girl and two man,other two lady.
blue bear like sweet and chocolate.