AAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

Will update later, just finished listening to the ‘debate’ between HIV Conspiracy Theorist Lenny Baby, and HIV-doesnt-exist Dramatic Duesberg.

Will add real comments and hopefully an mp3 tonight, but OMFG THIS WAS THE BEST DEBATE EVER!!! OMG!!! OMG!!! AAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

AAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA THE MP3! THE MP3, GUYS! START LISTENING AT THE 6:30 MINUTE MARK AAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

Now updated below the fold!


This ‘debate’ was pretty much exactly what I expected. Having ‘debated’ Horowitz in the past, I wasnt surprised he completely dominated the conversation (LET ME FINISH! WILL YOU LET ME FINISH???). Aaand I figured there would be a bounty of crap, a cornucopia of crap, if you will, from ‘both sides’.

But I didnt think there would be so much crap! Its was like a DI conference where EVERYONE forgot to take their lithium! Such a crap bounty! So please, everyone, harvest as much crap as you want from this interview, and save it for a slow blag day when everyone needs a lol (Optimus Primate couldnt resist noming already).

I will take only the 3 questions posed to Horowitz and Duesberg. If you all have any lingering questions about the debate, though, or something they said about HIV, please dont hesitate to ask!



1. Is it possible that any virus could cause AIDS?


Yup! Viruses are only capable of infecting cells that have the right receptor on the outside. Just like herpes gets into your neurons or influenza gets into your lung cells, HIV-1 requires receptors that are only expressed on certain kinds of immune cells. Sometimes the virus stays quiet, and nothing really happens, but when lots of viruses are produced, the infected cells die. Some HIV Deniers say HIV-1 cant kill cells, but thats actually one of the red flags I use in my experiments– If I infect my cells, and 24 hours later they are all dead, I know I screwed up and added too much virus! I am not adding anything else to these cells (‘poppers’, AZT, etc) except HIV-1 viruses, and the CD4+ T-cells die.

But this doesnt have to be specific for HIV-1. Any virus that evolved the need to use CD4, or any other receptor on the surface of any other immune cell could infect and kill cells, leading to a form of immunodeficiency. So yes, ‘any’ virus could cause AIDS.


2. If HIV exists, what is its origin?


HIV-1 is a zoonotic infection from chimpanzees.
HIV-2 is a zoonotic infection from sooty mangabeys.


3. What are the effects of AZT?


AZT is an antiretroviral. New antiretrovirals are the golden snitch of HIV-1 therapy, as HIV-1 evolves around everything we throw at it (not just drugs).

What makes a REALLY good drug, whether its for HIV or something else, is a drug that ONLY effects the invader. For a good example, think of pennicillin! Unless you are allergic to it, humans can normally take pretty large doses of the drug to kill bacteria because humans dont have cell walls!

The problem with HIV-1 drugs is that retroviruses use a LOT of our cells machinery. You cant mess up HIV-1 without messing up a normal cellular process. BUT there are chinks in its armor! Entry inhibitors, reverse transcription inhibitors, integration inhibitors, maturation inhibitors (Im sure there are more I am forgetting)! AND the more chinks you attack at the same time, the harder it is for HIV-1 to evolve resistance to ALL of them at the same time, and remain as pathogenic.

Evolution as a medical therapy ;)

Comments

  1. #1 Tyler DiPietro
    May 22, 2008

    OMFG.

    You get a serious whiff of 9/11 Troof from the way these are absolutely paranoid over each other. Conspiracy theories and crankery in general seem incapable of avoiding descent into self-parody.

    “COINTEL AGENT! COINTEL AGENT! BURN HIM!!!!”

  2. #2 Jason
    May 22, 2008

    I had an experiment to do all morning (which is heinous, to me, as a computational biologist), and I have a meeting to go to in 10 minutes, so I didn’t have a chance of listening to this otherwise – you’ve just made my day and I haven’t even heard it yet!

  3. #3 CL
    May 22, 2008

    The opening accusation by Lenny is unbelievable, was not sure if I wanted to listen to this…but O! M! G! Amazing!!

  4. #4 sirhcton
    May 22, 2008

    How do you manage to listen to this stuff without having your head explode? How does your boyfriend Lenny, manage to keep his own head from exploding?

  5. #5 Dennis N
    May 22, 2008

    this is great…

  6. #6 Optimus Primate
    May 22, 2008

    I found the commercials to be even more blog-worthy than the “debate”!

  7. #7 SC
    May 22, 2008

    I did check your links this time – loved the “Dramatic Duesberg” one.

    But the recording was just too much for one afternoon. Too much insanity. I should’ve known better. Should’ve spaced it out. For some reason I couldn’t skip past the ads, either – hemp, Himalayan crystal salt lamps, therapeutic magnets, pH-balance drops,… And then the tragic caller at the end. Ay.

  8. #8 Jason
    May 22, 2008

    Christ! Your boy Lenny is OUT OF CONTROL. I can’t believe I would EVEN THINK OF DEFENDING Duesberg, but Lenny is out of control. And that caller (who sounded like he had marbles in his mouth – Graves?)

    *favorite quotes*
    Caller: “The Proceedings of the United States National Academy of Science”
    Duesberg: “The Proceedings of the National Academy of Science, there is no United States in its title…”
    Caller: “YES IT IS!”

    headasplode!

    winning quote!
    Moderator: “This is something from all the way back in 1973 – is it possible people can change their opinions in ….”
    Lenny: “Not in science! This is documented scientific knowledge”

    *thoughts*
    1) Lenny is sputtering utter crap; this makes it hard to take that line seriously, because all the way in 2008 he’s still saying off-the-wall-shit

    2) It’s not as though our understanding of things are static. What utter crap! This guy has a weird view of science, especially basic science. This also was clear in your interview, Abbie, when he intimidated he ACTUALLY helped people, and you didn’t, with your benchwork… Arrogance, and astoundingly bad view of science.

    3) He brings up Rous Sarcoma virus as though it’s somehow relevant to HIV/AIDS. What point was Lenny making with it?

    These people don’t articulate argument clearly. And they bicker. Thanks for posting, but decidedly, that was a waste of an hour. I could’ve been listening to something else while programming…

  9. #9 LennyBaby
    May 22, 2008

    My top four favorites (after Horowitz’s “the priesthood of Yeshua damns you eternally” thing in the beginning)…

    1. Boyd Graves, “the etiological agent of HIV is the sheep, the Icelandic sheep, not any monkey”
    2. Duesberg making sound effects in the background, “Wooo…Whoo hooooo. (garbled German stuff)”
    3. Horowitz, “this is a Hegelian dialectic problem”
    4. Duesberg, “Hello? Hello?”
    Horowitz (mocking in a baby voice), “Oh? Am I on the line?”

  10. #10 Lledowyn
    May 22, 2008

    O_O I think I’m in shock. I mean, how is it possible for these two mental cripples to even be able to go on through life? Do they have people that feed and clothe them, because there is no way that they can handle that by themselves. *boggles*

  11. #11 SC
    May 22, 2008

    I enjoyed the Hegelian-dialectic remark, too. Horowitz evidently favors the Stalin variant: thesis; antithesis; “LIAR!!! EVIL WRECKER!!! ENEMY OF THE PEOPLE!!!!”

  12. #12 Joshua Zelinsky
    May 22, 2008

    I like how quickly they get into persecution claims.

    I like how Lenny feels a need to also list his claim to be a “representative of God” along with his related religious wackoism and praying to the courts of heaven and earth. I hope someone has more time will transcribe Lenny’s statement. In contrast Duesberg comes across as very reasonable.

    The interviewer/moderator seems to be amazingly biologically ignorant. I don’t think he understands that at this point even the HIV/AIDS deniers acknowledge that HIV exists. Moreover, he refers at one point to “so called retrovirus” and “alleged retrovirus”. Does he not think that retroviruses exist or not know what the term means? I’m also a bit puzzled why neither Horowitz nor Duesberg bothered correcting the moderator about this.

    The commercials are also amazing. I’m not sure I’ve ever heard a station that has both a pro-hemp commercial and an US-centric Bible prophecy commercial within a few seconds of each other. Then there’s something about natural blood pressure reducers which sounds like more woo (I’m a bit too lazy to investigate it further).

    The second commercial break then had survivalist nonsense. And then some natural cures. The third one had an advertisement for a “Rife machine” which is a form of alternative medicine I had never heard before (I thought at first that it was a “Reich machine” related to Orgone but apparently it is a distinct alternative medicine). And then we get some material related to natural toenail improving gel and to correcting your Ph balance.

    Also, it seems that they both garbled the the title of PNAS. The full title is “Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America”

    The musical interludes weren’t so bad.

  13. #13 Brian Foley
    May 22, 2008

    There is nothing funny about the pain and suffering inflicted in South Africa, by the Rethinking AIDS group. Most of their board of directors still list themselves as “Members of of South Africa’s Presidential AIDS Advisory Panel”:
    http://www.rethinkingaids.com/Content/TheBoard/tabid/60/Default.aspx

    Peter Duesberg and many of the other members know very well that they are lying about many things. Peter Duesberg is not ignorant of viruses or retroviruses. He knows that some viruses remain in the host for life, sometimes causing disease long after antibodies are produced. He knows about shingles for one example, and CMV retinitis for another. He also knows that retroviruses never case a disease like measles, they more often cause cancers.

    He should know that caprine and ovine lentiviruses such as the visna virus are not extinct. Yet he chooses to continue to tell lies about all of these things, in public.

    It is not funny, there is no way to know how many people have died in South Africa due to this type of misinformation. It is one thing to spew nonsense on a woo radio show, but quite another to actually advise the government of South Africa with lies.

  14. #14 Eric Saveau
    May 22, 2008

    Dear Cooler –

    If you’re still around, I feel, after the clashing of intellectual giants in the recording of that debate, that I must tell you the truth.

    You’re right. About everything.

    The HIV virus does not cause AIDS. We’ve been lying about that all along. In fact, I personally am involved in the Cause.

    But I plea for your understanding, Cooler, because we only did it to protect you from an even darker truth.

    No disease at all is caused by any virus.

    The common cold is not caused the common cold virus. The flu is not caused by the flu virus. Herpes and syphilis are not caused by the virii they are attributed to (and I wish to offer my personal condolences for your own infections); meningitis, polio, measles… no viral cause for any of them.

    They’re all caused by aliens.

    We’ve had to keep this a secret for generations to, um, avoid causing a panic. And to maintain the safety of those who are helping us to fight this terrible threat – the other aliens.

    Yes! Not all aliens are the same! One faction has been preying on us for ages untold, mutilating our cattle, abducting our young men and women for their unnatural pleasures, littering the surface of our vulnerable planet with their so-called “pyramids”, and infecting our mortal flesh and poisoning our world. But the other – ah, the Blessed Other Race Whom We May Not Name! – they are benevolent and wise, and say that our species is one of great potential and promise. They are here to save us.

    Why do I tell you these things, Cooler? Because the time has now come for them to reveal themselves to us all. The next phase of the salvation of humanity begins soon, and all the world will know the truth. We can forgive Lenny Horowitz for having said too much too soon; we can only hope that he can forgive us for allowing him to rant and rave unchecked and sound like an incoherent goat-fucking lunatic.

    But now, all will be well. Watch for other signs! The Truth will be revealed to all; yea, even on science blogs like this one. Until then, I wish you well.

    Eric Saveau,
    aka Marklar-Mathesar-Omega-13

  15. #15 Steven
    May 22, 2008

    I am remember of that episode of South Park “CRIPPLE FIGHT” but this time it is too people who are crippled mentally. Devoid of logic or evidence. Scary guys.

  16. #16 Iain George
    May 22, 2008

    The Galileo defence invoked before Duesberg even gets to speak.

  17. #17 Art
    May 22, 2008

    You really have to give Horowitz credit. He does no lack for ego or hubris. If you could win a scientific debate based solely on your titles and affiliations he would rule.

    He claims to speak in the name of:
    - Thousands of [unnamed] scientists and physicians who have been silenced and ignored.

    - As diplomatic officer for the World Organization for Natural Medicine.

    - As a representative of God [and] knighted in the sovereign orthodoxy of the knights of St.John Jerusalem.

    - As a rabbinical priest in the bloodline of Moses and Joshua.

    Wow, what a list. It certainly sounds impressive.

    Could I get signed letters of recommendation and agreement on all points from all those people and groups? The organizational affiliations would be nice to track down.

    Of course the big one is the letter and signature of this ‘God’ he claims to be speaking for. Screw the baseball signed by the Dodgers. The signature of an actual God on a letter has to be worth millions.

    Unless it’s a fake.

    Which is the core of the problem. A fake speaking for storefront organizations and citing imaginary proof of ridiculous claims isn’t worth a whole lot more than the collected pronouncements of a deranged skid-row bum arguing with a lamp post.

    The advertisements were special also.

    A RICE[sic] machine that evidently projects a healing and antiviral waveform?

    A special ‘mineral based’ PH balancing liquid that will raise the PH to ‘ten in ten drops’. Is that good? From the tone of voice it sounded like that was extra-special good.

    Against that backdrop I guess the ravers sounded a bit more rational. I have a friend on an oddball forum that claims to listen to this sort of fringe radio all the time. No wonder he is a whack job. A couple of hours of this sort of broadcasting every day has caused brain damage. I felt my own IQ drop ten point just listening to this bit. Hopefully the effect is temporary. Shouldn’t there be warnings?

  18. #18 Paul Lundgren
    May 22, 2008

    I have no intention of listening to two nutball losers debate phony science. The explanation of the three HIV questions was as entertaining to me as anything. Very nicely explained.

    Anyway, your DOG could out-debate those two schmucks just by sitting there with a puzzled look on his face, and be much more charming.

  19. #19 Russ
    May 22, 2008

    Syphilis really isn’t caused by a virus. It’s a spirochete.

  20. #20 Barn Owl
    May 22, 2008

    Listening to the ads alone was like reading every single bit of print on the bottle of Dr. Bronner’s Magic Soaps “18-in-1 Hemp LAVENDER PURE-CASTILE SOAP”, while suffering from a plague of insomnia. Except that the products advertised were undoubtedly all crap, and Dr. Bronner’s soap is at least non-toxic and smells nice.

    I had to stop listening after the third repetition of the phrases “so-called antibodies” and “so-called retrovirus”.

    To paraphrase that Eternal Trickster, Bugs Bunny: “What a couple of maroons.”

  21. #21 Orac
    May 22, 2008

    Caller: “The Proceedings of the United States National Academy of Science”
    Duesberg: “The Proceedings of the National Academy of Science, there is no United States in its title…”
    Caller: “YES IT IS!”

    Actually, there is. The official title of the journal is the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America. The caller was wrong, but so was Duesberg.

  22. #22 MandyDax
    May 22, 2008

    O.o OMFSM… I had to check the calendar. No, not 1 April. Poe’s Law? This is too crazy. /facepalm /headdesk, etc…

  23. #23 mds
    May 22, 2008

    Joshua @ #12: I transcribed the statement and posted it over at Pharyngula. Enjoy!

  24. #24 ERV
    May 22, 2008

    mds– You rock. That must have taken forever!

  25. #25 mds
    May 22, 2008

    Thanks, Abby. It actually took less time than I was expecting. Horowitz’s frequent pauses gave me chances to catch up and/or pause the MP3, making the process much smoother, and he only talks for two minutes or so.

  26. #26 Bill Abendroth
    May 22, 2008

    Oy. I’m a former public defender, so don’t watch any legal shows (NEVER any of those CSI shows, but I do love it when the forensic chemists grab their badges & guns to go have shoot outs with suspects. HA HA HA!), because it makes my head hurt when people try to act smart by talking ‘legal.’ Dr. Lenny (did I hear right? He is a dentist?) issues a public INDICTMENT…What is that? Just accusing Duesberg of inventing AIDS? But then Lenny goes on to call on all the courts of ‘heaven and earth’ to act on this indictment, and punish Dr. Duesberg ‘for all of eternity.’ Well, okay I guess. But I have a few questions about which courts have jurisdiction, and adequacy of service…

    The moderator should just change his name, move to a new state, and start his life over. I’ve heard bad ‘moderators’ in action, but he was the worst. He didn’t even know how to control the flow of the show. When Lenny jumped in and attacked Dr. Duesberg for mischaracterizing Dr. Graves sheep story, I thought Lenny was right. The moderator should have acted on that. And when Lenny asked Dr. Duesberg to stop the senile muttering, the moderator should also have been on that…I also thought I was going to die when the moderator suggested that the mercury in silver fillings caused AIDS. Not even the three guest ‘doctors’ would bite on that one.

    Oh–here’s also a news flash for any would be internet radio folks: If you have a guest who says ‘Can I open by reading a prepared statement?’ you say ‘We’ll get to that in a bit. Right now, I want you answer these three questions….’ And then you work your butt off to never get to the prepared statement.

    As a rule, people who claim to be on a mission from god, or acting under express orders from god, are bats and should be avoided at all costs.

    When Dr. Lenny agreed that viruses ’cause’ AIDS, he said something about ‘if you inject a virus in a computer, look what happens…’ I have no background in biology nor computers–but that’s the dumbest thing I’ve heard in a long time.

    I don’t know what kind of dentist Lenny is, but he needs to go back to philosophy school. Lenny asks/tells Curious George (the moderator) ‘This is a Hegalian dialetic program?’ I think Lenny is refering to the actual internet radio show PROGRAM. If Lenny did mean the classic ‘point, counterpoint, resolution’ (which I think he did), that’s not a ‘Hegalian Dialectic.’ But then, Lenny says the ‘thesis’ is ‘Dr. Gallo’s (sp?) claim that HIV causes AIDS,’ and the ‘antithesis’ is ‘Dr. Duesberg is telling lies!’ Too bad Lenny didn’t get around to suggesting a synthesis. I wanted to hear how he’d resolve those two vectors…

    I don’t know anything about any of these people….But listening to Dr. Duesberg reminded me what LBJ once said about Gerald Ford: ‘Gerry spent too much time at Michigan playing football without a helmet.’ In a similar vein, why on earth would Dr. Duesberg agree to appear anywhere with a guy who’s sole reason for existence seems to be to accuse him of consciously creating AIDS, in a willful effort to depopulate parts of the planet? How did Duesberg think this ‘debate’ was going to flow:

    Moderator: Isn’t it true, Dr. Duesberg, that you were part of a reseach team that developed the HIV virus in a deliberate effort to exterminate entire populations of people on the African continent?’
    Dr. D. ‘Huh? Uh, You are asking me more than one question there. Which question do you want me to answer?’
    Moderator: Let me rephrase it. Isn’t it true that you created the HIV virus to become the greatest genocidial maniac killer ever, and then championed viciously toxic drugs like AZT, just to make sure anyone lucky enough to survive AIDS would be poisoned to death?
    Dr. D: When did any life come into origin? Many forms of life and viruses go back millions of years so who knows?
    Moderator: And just when did you stop beating your wife?
    Dr. D: Vell…Ju know, ze bitch really had it coming, yah….

    *****************************************************

    The whole ‘debate’ violated the Mark Twain rule: Never argue with an idiot. People watching might get confused which one of you is the idiot…..

    Bill Abendroth
    billaben@teleport.com

  27. #27 H.H.
    May 23, 2008

    Lenny actually trumpeted himself as a “Representative of God knighted in the Sovereign Orthodox Order of Knights Hospitaller of St. John of Jerusalem.” Wow.

    Too bad I’m a Jedi knight, which trumps that.

  28. #28 Ichthyic
    May 23, 2008

    Does any body here know if Deusberg was on Jonathan Wells advisory committee, or was his primary advisor, when he was a grad student in MCB at Berkeley?

  29. #29 Ichthyic
    May 23, 2008

    btw, if you liked the dramatic prairie dog…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkqqMPPg2VI&feature=related

  30. #30 Monkey's uncle
    May 23, 2008

    Oh. Wow. I didn’t really engage with the ‘debate’, as it was too fragmented and overtaken by incidental music and adverts in a lot of places..but the ADVERTS!!! I am still laughing at the ‘survival’ one, the ‘crystal healing’ one and the ‘chinese conspiracy’….brightened my day, anyway!

  31. #31 John Phillips, FCD
    May 23, 2008

    Abbie: That is pretty close to the most incoherent, mind numbing but painful, brain cell destroying, IQ nullifying piece I have ever listened to. You owe me lots and lots and lots of brain cells that I will never recover after listening to that. Brain cells are still voluntarily committing suicide as I type rather than ponder the (I actually don’t know what to call it) that I just listened to. You should post a ‘risk to your mental health’ warning alongside such links.

  32. #32 Woobegone
    May 23, 2008

    It’s a battle of wits between two unarmed men. An intellectual gunfight where both guys brought knives. Truth was the first casualty of this war, the other victims were any shreds of credibility retained by the combatants.

  33. #33 Rob Hinkley
    May 23, 2008

    Those adverts, in brief:

    - “Hemp: the superfood for you and your family! …”
    - Something rather incoherent about gold and the Chinese.
    - “Did you know that America is one of the two most talked-about nations in the Bible? …” Find out with News Watch Magazine!
    - Get unspecified “Heart & Body Extract” now to protect yourself from heart disease and diabetes.
    - For the low price of $19.95 each buy the entire set of 24 survival DVDs covering such topics as cave cooking, tracking and desert survival. As used by Scouts and the military, every family needs them.
    - A surprisingly conventional-sounding radio and CD player.
    - Himalayan crystal salt lamps are natural and ionic, and they neutralise allergens and fungi.
    - Properly designed therapeutic magnets deliver the healing energy of the north pole! Magnet-boosting dietary supplements also available.
    - Get a Rife machine now to sweep the entire range of frequencies and cure all disease.
    - The election approaches: buy this paranoid video and seize back government from the politicians.
    - “I used to be ashamed of my toenails until I discovered Nonex Nail Gel which clears out the protein debris. Now my toenails look better than ever!”
    - “Cancers cannot live in an alkaline environment but most people are overly acidic. … Alkalize yourself with Alkavision Plasma pH Drops!”

    Why did the statement of support for Ron Paul’s presidential aspirations at the end have the British national anthem playing in the background? “God Save the King” doesn’t seem appropriate music for the guy who’s supposed to be a yee-haw patriot constitutionalist.

  34. #34 Ian
    May 23, 2008

    Very entertaining! Thanks for the heads up.

    Minor spelling and grammatical errors:
    “is a drug that ONLY effects the invader. For a good example, think of pennicillin!”

    Don’t you mean “affects”? And “penicillin” is misspelled – entirely understandable if you were seizing after this onslaught (as in “Nnnnnnn!”).

  35. #35 noncarborundum
    May 23, 2008

    Why did the statement of support for Ron Paul’s presidential aspirations at the end have the British national anthem playing in the background? “God Save the King” doesn’t seem appropriate music for the guy who’s supposed to be a yee-haw patriot constitutionalist.

    Because we stole the tune for our own patriotic song, “My Country, ‘Tis of Thee”. which every child here learns practically before he or she is out of diapers.

  36. #36 David Marjanovi?
    May 23, 2008

    *favorite quotes*
    Caller: “The Proceedings of the United States National Academy of Science”
    Duesberg: “The Proceedings of the National Academy of Science, there is no United States in its title…”
    Caller: “YES IT IS!”

    headasplode!

    LOL!!!

    littering the surface of our vulnerable planet with their so-called “pyramids”

    ROTFL!!!

    - As a representative of God [and] knighted in the sovereign orthodoxy of the knights of St.John Jerusalem.

    - As a rabbinical priest in the bloodline of Moses and Joshua.

    ROTFLMAO!!!

    0.9 Tc — oh, sorry, wrong blog.

    A special ‘mineral based’ PH balancing liquid that will raise the PH to ‘ten in ten drops’. Is that good? From the tone of voice it sounded like that was extra-special good.

    :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

    It turns you into pretty fine soap, yes… :-D

    When Dr. Lenny agreed that viruses ’cause’ AIDS, he said something about ‘if you inject a virus in a computer, look what happens…’

    Diaphragm cramp.

    Multiple rib fracture.

    This is so cool… I thought it would be enough if I just read the transcript (thanks, mds). But now I think that won’t be enough.
    :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

  37. #37 Bob Carroll
    May 23, 2008

    Was Duesberg even listening to Horowitz’s OFFICIAL indictment? A normal response would to (correctly) label Horowitz’s comments as the raving of a certifiable loon. From Duesberg: nothing. And those commercials define the radio station, and say a lot about the listeners. Although the commercials on WCBS, here in NY, are only marginally more rational.

  38. #38 Dr. Duke
    May 23, 2008

    ====
    http://groups.msn.com/AIDSMythExposed/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=34400&LastModified=4675673893595901656

    From: starvision Sent: 5/22/2008 9:38 PM
    Even though this “debate” was unfair to Dr. Peter Duesberg, it did accomplish what was intended. Horowitz took the bait, and now has himself in serious situation defending the outlandish lunatic claims he made. Horowitz fell right into the trap. Remember the old proverb, “give a fool enough rope”?

    Check this out!

    Tomorrow FRI, (5/23) Dr. Andrew Maniotis will begin the process of dissecting Horowitz and Graves in a follow up show. It is “rumored” that Peter Duesberg may be back on too, to use his “equal time” and unencumbered by the likes of these two knotheads (Horowitz and Graves) to nail the coffin shut on this nonsense. You will be able to listen to the program on line all weekend on internet rebroadcast at:
    http://www.hearitonline.com (click on the Pink box and pick an audio player)

    Peter did handle himself as a gentleman and answered the questions at hand, but this is only the beginning.

    It’s time to expose Horowitz as the shill and deceiver that he is. What do you think? Is he for real?
    Or— is Horowitz really an AID$ Inc. plant designed to reignite fear and terror of HIV among the 911 Truth / Alex Jones crowd.
    One thing is for sure, he has been at this for at least 11 years now, and has been a disinformation source all that time. This is why people like Alex Jones still are confused about the HIV=AIDS fraud.
    Tune it in—all weekend long as we now dissect Horowitz alive!

    ====

  39. #39 Dr. Duke
    May 23, 2008

    ==========
    From: starvision Sent: 5/22/2008 9:38 PM
    Even though this “debate” was unfair to Dr. Peter Duesberg, it did accomplish what was intended. Horowitz took the bait, and now has himself in serious situation defending the outlandish lunatic claims he made. Horowitz fell right into the trap. Remember the old proverb, “give a fool enough rope”?

    Check this out!

    Tomorrow FRI, (5/23) Dr. Andrew Maniotis will begin the process of dissecting Horowitz and Graves in a follow up show. It is “rumored” that Peter Duesberg may be back on too, to use his “equal time” and unencumbered by the likes of these two knotheads (Horowitz and Graves) to nail the coffin shut on this nonsense. You will be able to listen to the program on line all weekend on internet rebroadcast at:
    http://www.hearitonline.com (click on the Pink box and pick an audio player)

    Peter did handle himself as a gentleman and answered the questions at hand, but this is only the beginning.

    It’s time to expose Horowitz as the shill and deceiver that he is. What do you think? Is he for real?
    Or— is Horowitz really an AID$ Inc. plant designed to reignite fear and terror of HIV among the 911 Truth / Alex Jones crowd.
    One thing is for sure, he has been at this for at least 11 years now, and has been a disinformation source all that time. This is why people like Alex Jones still are confused about the HIV=AIDS fraud.
    Tune it in—all weekend long as we now dissect Horowitz alive!

    =======

  40. #40 Nick
    May 23, 2008

    I work as an ER doctor on weekend nights… so unfortunately I do a lot of psychiatry. Professional opinion: just from the first ten minutes, I would totally write a emergency psychiatric hold on Horowitz and give him a big slug of geodon and ativan in the ass just to get a little peace and quiet. He *really* belongs in a proverbial padded room. Does he still practice dentistry and actually touch human beings or is he too involved in his psychosis to maintain a practice? If the former is true… what state? Someone really needs to tell the dental board before he bumps someone off.

    Duesberg seems like a mildly eccentric Dr Bunsen Honeydew character in comparison. The German accent really makes it though.

    Though I love the ads and the soundtrack the best. Sort of a conspiracy theory dance-mix.

    Awesome!

  41. #41 LennyBaby
    May 23, 2008

    @Orac: You’re right; both Horowitz and Duesberg were wrong about the PNAS name. It got worse when Duesberg named the journal as belonging to the “American Academy of Sciences.”

    Tragically, Duesberg, who doesn’t even know its name, is an actual member of the NAS.

  42. #42 karl
    May 23, 2008

    What I find most amazing was the final caller. The woman who was ^5ing both for the “great” work they’ve done. One could do a thesis on how this woman is able to have her brain accommodate the glaring reality that **both can’t be right**. And if one was right then that would mean the other is a monster on par with at least a Nazi death camp doctor, if not Hitler and Pol Pot rolled into one.

    To wit, if Lenny was right, then Duesberg is one of the worst mass murderers in history, having created the AIDS virus. If Duesberg is right (AIDS is just a bad lifestyle choice), Lenny has been leading millions astray with his quackery.

    And yet, they’re both heroes in her mind. Stunning.

  43. #43 LennyBaby
    May 23, 2008

    Obviously, Lenny Horowitz is from the bloodlines of Moses and Yeshua the Messiah. But does that mean he’s descended from Jesus or just that Jesus is like his great-times-37-uncle? If he’s really getting all Da Vinci Code on us, it would seriously piss off some of his core constituents.

  44. #44 tguy
    May 23, 2008

    ::thud!::

    Btw, isn’t “rabbinical priest” an oxymoron? I’ve never heard a rabbi call him/herself a priest, nor a priest Rabbi.

  45. #45 stompsfrogs
    May 24, 2008

    priest
    noun
    1. a person whose office it is to perform religious rites, and esp. to make sacrificial offerings.

    So, a rabbi is a priest.

    And I can’t finish the broadcast. I’m sorry. I got half-way through, but my head…it hurts…

  46. #46 Bayesian Bouffant, FCD
    May 26, 2008

    I will take only the 3 questions posed to Horowitz and Duesberg. If you all have any lingering questions about the debate, though, or something they said about HIV, please dont hesitate to ask!

    There’s something I’ve heard mentioned by deniers in several places that I would appreciate being dealt with clearly, at length, and (if possible) with minimal LOLspeak: “I know someone who’s had HIV for 20 years, doesn’t take any of those poisonous drugs, and is perfectly healthy.” I recognize the difference between anecdotes and hard data, but what is known about such cases? Different strains of HIV? I vaguely recall something about people with certain immune system alleles being resistant to infection.

  47. #47 Chris Noble
    May 26, 2008

    There’s something I’ve heard mentioned by deniers in several places that I would appreciate being dealt with clearly, at length, and (if possible) with minimal LOLspeak: “I know someone who’s had HIV for 20 years, doesn’t take any of those poisonous drugs, and is perfectly healthy.” I recognize the difference between anecdotes and hard data, but what is known about such cases? Different strains of HIV? I vaguely recall something about people with certain immune system alleles being resistant to infection.

    That is a good point. If the consequences of HIV Denial were as immediate as those of gravity Denial then there wouldn’t be a Denialist movement.

    Contrary to Denialist propaganda, people who are infected with HIV but don’t progress to AIDS are actively studied. There are both host and virus factors that are involved.

    A group of people infected from a single batch of HIV infected blood all had a strain of HIV missing the nef gene and all showed little or no depleteion of CD4 cells. Some human polymorphisms in the genes responsible for receptor molecules on CD4 cells also effect progression rate.

  48. #48 Joshua Zelinsky
    May 26, 2008

    The debate no longer appears to be up. Did anyone save a copy?

  49. #49 ERV
    May 26, 2008

    @46/47–
    Its a combination of variation within hosts, and variations within the virus.

    I study kids infected with HIV-1– One kid will be infected in the womb and live happy hunky dory for >10 years. 10 kids who were also infected in the womb, born about the same time as kid #1, were be dead in 3 months.
    There are host factors– every one of us, our immune system will be able to see different parts of HIV-1. Your immune system doesnt see ‘virus’, it sees in bits of protein, and each of our immune systems ‘vision’ is focused on different things.

    However, Im a virologist, not immunologist :) So I focus on variations within HIV-1. I want to figure out the molecular determinants of fitness, and vaccinate against the BAD bad guys. The BAD bad guys that can kill you in 3 months. If you can vaccinate against the BAD bad guys, then more people will be in the ‘Ive lived for 20 years without drugs’ group, but we will know why :)

    Josh– Yup! Email me and Ill send it to ya!

  50. #50 tguy
    May 28, 2008

    Thanks, stompsfrogs. Btw, are you the reason them little critters are disappearing?

    I listened to the whole thing but was doing other stuff at the time, which saved me from cranial implosion.

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