Casey Luskin

*swoon*

Casey Luskin is as breathtakingly sexy in person as he is on film. Im going to pass out. Hes like a WOW gnome.

**SWOON!!!!**

Update: Shit. Im hungry.

Update #2: Casey is trying to justify ‘cdesign proponentsists’. Srsly. Srsly.

Update #3: The next time I hear someone say ‘Creationists are such good public speakers’ Im going to hog-tie said person, drag them to Seattle, and make them listen to a presentation by John West or Casey Luskin. By the time we got to Caseys talk, a couple dozen people had left, and others were napping, playing on iPhones, etc. I was reading papers for work. It was that boring.

Why was it so boring?

All the material Casey presented was ooooooold.

Kitzmiller Kitzmiller Kitzmiller.
Im not saying Judge Jones plagiarized, but Judge Jones plagiarized.
ID is like SETI
cdesign proponentsists was part of the plan all along!
Bacterial flagella
List of people I have never heard of in my entire life who got EXPELLED!
EXPELLED!
CSI and irriducible complexity
JUNK DNA ISNT JUNK!
PARADIGM!
Literature bluff!
ACLU!

*yawn*

There were a few lol-worthy moments. One when he mentioned the ACADEMIC FREEDOM bill in OK failed (lol), and another when he gave a shout-out to AtBC. AtBC– if you dont know them, you should. They are The Watchers. The see everything. They know everything. And they call Casey Luskin mean names. looool! Seriously, Casey cried about how people call him mean names on the internet.

But then shit hit the fan, bitches. SHIT HIT THE FAN!


Casey put up a slide referring everyone to ERV, specifically, IDiots and ERVs. I was like ‘Wow! So Casey is going to admit that William Dembski didnt actually ‘discover’ ‘junk DNA’ and that humans and mice evolved from a common ancestor, and that he doesnt know jack shit about science… wow! Refreshing honesty!’

Suprisingly, he didnt mention one word of the post.

For the next 8-10 minutes, Casey bitched and moaned about how MEAN we all were to ‘whoisyourcreator’, a rare individual who is actually a spammer/troll IRL, posting billboards directing people to her website. Her website?

The founder of the group, Julie Haberle, says God talked to her and told her she needs to do billboards to refute evolution. These billboards just direct people to her website, which she explains she built by taking snippets from Ken Ham and others and putting them together–it shows. There’s nothing there but the tired old creationist nonsense we’ve seen so often.

So after it became clear Julie was just trolling for site hits (RAED MY FIVTY EVIDENCES AGAINST ERVZ!), ignoring other commentors responses, and I found out she deletes posts from her forum, I disemvoweled her and started teasing her.

So what did Casey present? He copy/pasted all of Julies disemvoweled posts, and screamed ‘I BELIEVE IN FREEDOM OF SPEECH! ABBIE HATES FREEDOM OF SPEECH!’. He then, I shit you not, posted the /b/ pic I referred Julie to:

80% of the audience loled, 20% of the audience clutched their pearls.

Casey then screamed ‘THIS IS HOW EVILUTIONISTS ARE! THEY MAKE NICE CREATIONISTS POST NUDE PHOTOS OF THEMSELVES ON THE INTERNET!! ABBIE HATES FREEDOM OF SPEECH!’

Now, heres whats fun. Julies posts havent been disemvoweled for months. I never updated sharpshooter when we upgraded, cause honestly, Id forgotten about Julie-Troll. So Casey must have been presenting those slides for 6 months to general audiences, and probably carefully forgetting to mention ERV is a woman to make it look like some skeezy man is asking a poor, defenseless Christian woman for pictures of her boobs to post comments. lol.

So I get up in the Q&A and clarify the situation, and call Casey to the floor for misrepresenting what happened, for misrepresenting me, and for misrepresenting ERV. He knew what was going on, but made a conscious decision to scream ‘ABBIE HATES FREEDOM!’ I asked him flat out whether he thought ‘TITS or GTFO’ was an honest request. ‘Mumble mumble drink of water Who in the audience thinks that was inappropriate?’ was his response. Then I took him to task for pretending like he gives a shit about ‘freedom of speech’ when he called me a liar on UD after the Behe-HIV adventure, but I was unable to defend myself because I was banned after 3 posts.

Then I tried to ask him my question. I was not allowed to do so. The entire time I was at the microphone, including the 30 seconds I tried to defend ERV, several pro-ID people were screaming over me in the audience. This includes the ‘moderator’ of this presentation, Don Ewert.

Long time readers of ERV will remember that name. Don is the IDiot who gave a presentation to the Baptist club about how ‘the immune system couldnt have evolved’ with 20 year old scientific papers (they didnt know how something evolved in 1985, that means we dont know how it evolved in 2007). Heres moar Don IDiocy.

Whats hysterical, is that after the presentation Don tried to be all chummy chummy with me, like I didnt know who he was, and like he didnt scream over me 15 minutes earlier. Stupid twat was like ‘DIRP! I did retroviral research! AIDS research! I studid how HIV transformes B-cells!’ Yeah, HIV-1 doesnt infect B-cells. But Im sure Don doesnt do science research anymore because hes ‘persecuted for being a Creationist’ lol.

Anyway, I said my peace to Casey, he mumbled something asinine, I flipped him off (*cue more lols and pearl-clutching*) and sat down.

Another nasty character was some law school student and Creationist (he believes humans were specially created) who also took part in the screaming. After the presentation, I patiently waited for a break in the conversation a friend was having to ask friend if he wanted to grab a beer. As I was waiting, Creationist law student came up to me “Is he your beta?” (implying Im an alpha male and my friend was my bitch, ie PUA)

Me *death eyes*– What the fuck is that supposed to mean?

Creationist law student– You need to teach your beta about the scientific method.

Me *not in the mood*– Boy, I spend my days trying to cure AIDS and cancer while those two fucks you just saw on stage would be unemployed if it werent for this manufactured ‘controversy’, so I really dont want to hear your shit about science or ‘the scientific method’.

He and I go at it for a minute, and I finally get him to apologize for calling my friend ‘my beta’ and I calm down enough to explain some science to this guy and one of his friends. Its going very nicely when Creationist law student interrupts with ‘Whats the structure of butane?’

Me– lol wut?

Creationist law student– You cant draw butane so I dont believe anything youve said.

Me– LOL! You want me to name the amino acids?

Creationist law student– YEAH! Name the five amino acids!

Me– LOOOOOOOL!

As poorly as some Creationists behaved last night, I have to give MASSIVE props to the Creationists who stood up for me. After Casey squeaked ‘ABBIE HATES FREEDOM’, Rhology, a Creationist commentor here who I think is brainwashed and part of a cult, went to the mic and said ‘Actually, I post at ERV. Its a hostile environment, but she never censors me.’ And several Creationists came up to me afterward and ‘apologized’ for Caseys sucker-punch. I do wish I could have bought them all a beer. I was reminded of a nice letter from a Creationist.

Anyway, Im sure you all are shocked to hear Casey Luskin is a slimy pussy. I know. News at 10, dog bites man. But it was a fun ending to a painfully boring evening!

Besides, there were two other people Luskin and West attacked relentlessly in their presentations and in their Q&As– Eugenie Scott and Barbara Forrest. I am truly, truly humbled to be targeted with those two women. It is an honor.

I guess Intelligent Design Creationists just REALLY dont like tits.

Comments

  1. #1 mcmillan
    February 20, 2009

    Re: update #2 – really? I’d kind of like to see how that was attempted. On the other hand it may be better not to know, since I’m sure somebody in the audience will be buying it and I’d rather keep the remnants of my faith in humanity.

  2. #2 James F
    February 20, 2009

    Re: update #2 – Hey, they tried to dismiss the Wedge Document. Nothing surprises me.

  3. #3 afarensis, FCD
    February 20, 2009

    Okay, that is all fine, well, and good, but get to the important details. Did the creationist bingo cards put in an appearance? What about the Australopithecus aethiopicus masks? Inquiring minds want to know.

  4. #4 Ross
    February 20, 2009

    “Casey is trying to justify ‘cdesign proponentsists’. Srsly. Srsly.”

    O rly?

  5. #5 SteveC
    February 20, 2009

    “Shit. I’m hungry” Yup, that pretty much sums up life in Kingdom Animalia.

    “Casey is trying to justify ‘cdesign proponentsists’”

    LOL. Would love to know how he attempted that.

  6. #6 waldteufel
    February 20, 2009

    I think you have a unibrow fetish.

  7. #7 RedMage13
    February 20, 2009

    “Update #2: Casey is trying to justify ‘cdesign proponentsists’. Srsly. Srsly.”

    Srsly? How did he attempt to justify that particular clusterfuck, exactly?

  8. #8 Rhology
    February 20, 2009

    I thought his prez was pretty decent, not as good as West’s.
    I didn’t think, however, that his treatment of your blog was all that provocative, actually. I understand that annoying trolls are worth some mockery now and then, so I think his point would have been better made by showing the way that commenters here have responded to someone like me, with gratuitous and tireless insults and ignoring of arguments made and answers given, rather than what he used. But oh well. Nice to meet you, though. I figure it had to happen sometime. Sorry I couldn’t go get a beer with you and your other friend so as to continue the discussion (my wife is due any day now), but I appreciate the invitation.

  9. #9 Citizen Z
    February 20, 2009

    “Update #2: Casey is trying to justify ‘cdesign proponentsists’. Srsly. Srsly.”

    Oh, please tell me you’re going to share the details.

  10. #10 Ritchie Annand
    February 21, 2009

    This sounds worse than attending the anti-vaxer’s conference. Are you sure you should be doing this? I have visions of your poor cortices writhing around like a ferret with a sock on its head.

    Apart from that, I’m hoping you tell us everything! Well, in shorter form, of course – I sympathize, but I know my limits :)

  11. #11 minimalist
    February 21, 2009

    ignoring of arguments made and answers given

    Rho, sweetcheeks, nearly every single one of your assertions has been addressed. It’s not our fault that you’re far too thick to understand the points being made.

    Now go run off to another thread and sulk some more.

  12. #12 ERV
    February 21, 2009

    UPDATES LATER, drunk now (after I arrived home safely)–
    Rho, I think youre brainwashed and your church is a creepy cult, however, you, sir, are honorable for standing up for me and ERV, as are several other Trinity members that apologized to me afterwards (I dont know why, they didnt do anything wrong, but thank you to them). I wish I could have bought you a beer for that.

    Also, tits.

    **lol at the inside joke no one will get but she and Rho until she posts the update**

    hehehehehehe tits.

  13. #13 Mike Haubrich, FCD
    February 21, 2009

    hehehehehehe tits.

    That’s one of my favorite teasers.

  14. #14 Eric Saveau
    February 21, 2009

    I think his point would have been better made by showing the way that commenters here have responded to someone like me, with gratuitous and tireless insults and ignoring of arguments made and answers given

    Rhobot may well be the least introspective person in the entire history of our species. Abbie, do you suppose you need a dungeon, ala’ PZ?

  15. #15 rrt
    February 21, 2009

    To those wanting to know how Casey defends “Cdesign proponentsists,” go read his mind-numbing article over at US News, as he offers it there. It’s buried in the middle of that morass, starting about nine paragraphs after a lengthy inset quoting Monton’s testimony and rambling on quite a ways afterwards. He mainly bases it on excuses offered by Thaxton at Dover. My best effort at summarizing (with maybe just a hint of editorial snark):

    –We’d adopted ID as a term before the Edwards decision. In fact, the Greeks invented it so we’re just copying them. So no court-evasion was involved.

    –ID is not creationism, so we needed a term that wasn’t “creationism.”

    –It was VERY IMPORTANT that we stick to the “empirical domain” and so not mention creationism.

    –Did I mention it was VERY IMPORTANT we stick to the empirical domain? ‘Cause it was. But not because of Edwards! Nuh-uh. It was just because…um…because.

    –We always meant to use ID in Pandas, but because (even though we’ve been using ID as a term since the Greeks) all of our friends who we wanted to interview and work with us on it didn’t know what ID WAS and only understood “creationism,” we used that as a placeholder and planned to replace it with ID later. That way they’d know what the book was about. You know, kinda like “From Darwin to Hitler” as a working title for “Expelled?” But it was never about creationism!

    –We did a lot of hard work on fitting our arguments to only the empirical domain (I did mention how VERY IMPORTANT but NOT AT ALL ABOUT EDWARDS that was, right?)

    –(actual Casey quote): “Any arguments that ID is creationism because early pre-publication drafts of the Pandas textbook used “creation” terminology are false conspiracy theories based not upon substance, but semantics and revisionist history. The very fact that Darwinists must resort to such arguments shows just how weak is their case that ID is creationism.”

    The whole mess is one of the most muddled, incoherent, laughable exercises in excuse-making and “I meant to do that!”-claiming I’ve ever seen. But the real gem is the bit about “creationism” being used as a placeholder for their friends. That paragraph deserves reprinting for full admiration (and remember, this is Thaxton speaking):

    “I realize that the charge was that we were trying to just use a substitute word for creation, but that isn’t the case at all. In the early days of writing the Pandas book for example, although we understood what we were doing, most other people who we were talking to didn’t know our objectives really. And if you have a whole culture that knows about creation as a term … So we used that word early on, not for deception so we could later switch on them but because we wanted the materials to be understood that we were focused on. It was always clearly within the empirical domain, even the things that we wrote early on.”

    I hadn’t read this part of the transcripts before. I understand even better now how Jones could end up so pissed. He knew how dumb they thought he was.

  16. #16 Crack Pipe Lenny
    February 21, 2009

    What, Eric, you don’t find this kind of argument compelling?

    “I find it ironic that on the one hand, atheists will tell you that while there is no grand Meaning in the universe, we can still enjoy our lives. We can still create our own meaning, for ourselves and by ourselves, generally within ourselves. This is simply another example of atheists believing in creating something out of nothing”

    Let’s see, a failed understanding of the word “ironic,” a worthless premise, and a lie, all in one paragraph. Looks like Rho doesn’t fuck around when it comes to nailing the Religious ‘Tard low points.

  17. #17 Azkyroth
    February 21, 2009

    tits

    You have my attention… :P

  18. #18 386sx
    February 21, 2009

    “I realize that the charge was that we were trying to just use a substitute word for creation, but that isn’t the case at all. In the early days of writing the Pandas book for example, although we understood what we were doing, most other people who we were talking to didn’t know our objectives really.”

    How would they not know their objectives? Same ol’ objectives as the old objectives!

    Creationist: “Hey thanks dude for callin it creationism. I didn’t know the objective!”

    IDer: “Well, no problem. Instead of calling it creationism I could explain the objective but you don’t know the objective so I better call it creationism.”

    Creationist: “Ummmmmmmmm, yahhhhhhhhhhhh… Okey dokey!”

  19. #19 MH
    February 21, 2009

    @rrt #15

    So, “creationists” is synonymous with “design proponents”, but intelligent design is not creationism?

    I don’t know whether that demonstrates how stupid they are, or how stupid they think their followers are. Either way, it burns.

    And did someone say “tits”?

  20. #20 Moth Eyes
    February 21, 2009

    Tits are great!
    For example: Clickedy

  21. #21 JK Finn
    February 21, 2009

    @MH #19

    Of course ID is not the same as creationism.

    After all, creationism is about God creating everything.
    ID is about the Designer designing everything. And then subcontracting the actual creation. To himself.

    See? All empirical and sciency, now.

    Also, tits.

  22. #22 carlsonjok
    February 21, 2009

    I totally missed him trying to defend cdesign proponentists. He was talking way too fast and I was trying (and failing) to keep up in my written notes. I thought his whole PnP talk was about how the book was demarcing God outside of science.

  23. #23 MartinDH
    February 21, 2009

    Moth Eyes @#20:

    I agree…tits are great. But wouldn’t it have been better to post a picture of a nice pair? Never mind, here’s a great big pair of boobies.

    Abbie:
    I kind of feel sorry for CasLuskiney…he reminds me of the clown with the shovel and wheeley-bin who follows the elephants.


    Martin

  24. #24 Peter Mc
    February 21, 2009

    “she needs to do billboards”

    What has poor Mr Boards done to deserve pleasuring by this strange lady?

  25. #25 rrt
    February 21, 2009

    I should clarify that I wasn’t at the talk, so what he said there might have been a little different–though reading Abbie’s third update, it sounds like he went with the “It’s always been ID!” and “I meant to do that!” defenses.

    Way to stand up to ‘em, ERV. You truly rock.

  26. #26 Science Avenger
    February 21, 2009

    Rhology said: I think his point would have been better made by showing the way that commenters here have responded to someone like me, with gratuitous and tireless insults and ignoring of arguments made and answers given

    Riiiiiight, which is why every thread you visit ends up with tons of counter arguments you ignore (eg my dismantling of your claim that we need absolute morals) as you happily bop over to another one to start the process all over again.

    I must make a point of trekking up for one of these tardfests, just to see how far down his throat Abbie can ram Casey’s foot.

    Oh, and tits.

  27. #27 Bluegrass Geek
    February 21, 2009

    After reading the full update, ERV, you are full of win. I only wish I could’ve been there. :)

  28. #28 Blake Stacey
    February 21, 2009

    Creationist law student– YEAH! Name the five amino acids!

    Lucky for me that I finished my soda before I read that. Now I only have to clean saliva off my monitor.

  29. #29 Crack Pipe Lenny
    February 21, 2009

    It doesn’t surprise me at all that Rhology was compelled to “defend” ERV in real life, albeit in the context of what apparently degenerated into a freak show (well, I suppose it had little choice). I have wasted some time reading his blog and comments, and such behavior is basically what you’d expect from someone whose entire online existence revolves around incessantly posting misinformation and lies on the Web for the dubious benefit of people far more qualified to speak on science than he is.

    It drives him crazy, I’m sure, that someone who goes overboard with the LOLS, ellipses, curse words, caps and assiduously avoids apostrophes–and is a CHICK, mind you!–is not only more widely read, but more knowledgeable. So the ersatz chivalry put on display is hardly a surprise; it’s about the only way insecure people like Rhology can work through their own not-so-well-concealed consternation over the conflict between THEIR reality and REAL reality.

  30. #30 Spurgeon
    February 21, 2009

    Hey there Ms. Smith.

    It was a pleasure talking to you last night outside of the museum. I’m sorry that some of my friends in attendance were less than cordial. I really appreciate you being patient and talking with us (even if we don’t know how many amino acids there are).I think Mr. Luskin’s presentation was more fair than you give him credit, but i appreciate your coverage on the event.

    I hope to see you at the Dembski-Ruse debate next week!

    also: Props to Rho for standing his ground in the QnA.

  31. #31 Optimus Primate
    February 21, 2009

    Abbie, it’s time for you to get a cape. You’re a fucking superhero.

  32. #32 deejay
    February 21, 2009

    Reading this, I kept waiting for the [/jking] tag to appear. Un-freaking-believable. I was stunned enough that USNWR gave Casey a forum for his brand of idiocy, but now I get to see what happens when Casey operates without an editor.

    Is it good that our opponents are so pathetic, or sad that they have any sort of traction?

  33. #33 JohnT
    February 21, 2009

    So now the most important questions are:

    1) Is there a video tape of the event?

    and 2) if so, then when and where will it be posted?

    I think everyone would love to see it; it’s must see TV.

  34. #34 William Wallace
    February 21, 2009

    I would have (and did) laugh at that picture, too. But that doesn’t make it right. I haven’t seen Julie’s posts, but if her only crime is putting billboards up, well, so what?

    At least ERV and MarkCC let my posts go up, which is more than I can say for PZ who doesn’t like being challenged over gate crashing incidents, or PalMD, who doesn’t want to be bothered with counter examples to his arguments.

    I still don’t understand why you hate Behe so much. He put forward a falsifiable hypothesis, and you claim that you falsified it (though I still cannot find where you disproved his claim).

    In contrast, I just watched a Nova documentary on a dispute among scientists regarding some creature that has feathers on its arms and legs. While I did sense that there may have been dormant and seething hostility than what was reflected in the documentary, they didn’t seem to be as vitriolic toward each other as evolutionists are toward creationists.

    Yet it is hilarious to watch scientists behave as though their composite three-dimensional sculptures become scientific since they use a wind tunnel at MIT.

    On what basis do they think that the creature they’re studying was optimized for aerodynamics?

    And if no basis, what scientific good does wind tunnel testing do?

    At best, you could say something like “If these creatures were aerodynamically optimized by evolution, and if our sculptors did their job, the creatures probably looked like this.”

    Didn’t once hear a justification for the assumption that the creatures were aerodynamically optimized, though.

    If a creationist were to build a “scientific” model of a water-dwelling creature that could hold a man alive for three days in its stomach, and evaluated the model using scientific tools, it would be ridiculed immediately as ridiculous by the evolanders.

  35. #35 Rey Fox
    February 21, 2009

    Wow, the internet really IS serious business. Just ask Mr. Luskin. Did he make any reference to his nickname of “attack mouse” over at Pharyngula?

    Also, seriously? Their big martyr is the whoisyourcreator lady? Jeez, what’s next, the crazy street preacher who shouts that we’re all going to Hell? Good ol’ Disco Institute, always aiming high.

  36. #36 Tommykey
    February 21, 2009

    William, would you volunteer to live in a marine creature’s belly (whatever lives in the Mediterranean that is actually large enough to accomplish the feat) for the three days to test the theory?

  37. #37 JD
    February 21, 2009

    Did you say Casey Luskin? Hahahahahahaha. Sorry. Hahahahahahahahahaha.

  38. #38 Rey Fox
    February 21, 2009

    “While I did sense that there may have been dormant and seething hostility than what was reflected in the documentary, they didn’t seem to be as vitriolic toward each other as evolutionists are toward creationists.”

    It’s simple. It’s because we know that creationists are liars and frauds.

  39. #39 NelC
    February 21, 2009

    Butane? That’s not a particularly difficult molecule to visualise, is it? Or am I missing something?

  40. #40 JohnT
    February 21, 2009

    Yet it is hilarious to watch scientists behave as though their composite three-dimensional sculptures become scientific since they use a wind tunnel at MIT.

    So from Casey Luskin and tits to microraptor. That’s quite a thread derail even for a creationist. Course, that’s their stock-in-trade especially when their losing.

    On what basis do they think that the creature they’re studying was optimized for aerodynamics?

    I saw this film most recently on the Discovery channel. I don’t recall them trying to determine if it was “aerodynamically optimized” for flight. Evolution isn’t as much about optimization as it is about “good-enough-for-the-job-at-hand”. Biological niches and environments are rarely static.

    From what I remember, they where trying to determine the possible flight/glide posture that the four-winged microraptor may have used. It wasn’t an exercise in proving or determining optimization. If you knew anything about science, then you’d know that it was really just an exercise in hypothesis generation. Bounding potential solutions so that more specific questions could be addressed and providing physical evidence for favoring some possible glide postures over others.

    Didn’t once hear a justification for the assumption that the creatures were aerodynamically optimized, though.

    Can you provide a reference where they made that specific assumption?

  41. #41 JohnT
    February 21, 2009

    oops,

    That’s quite a thread derail even for a creationist. Course, that’s their stock-in-trade especially when their they are losing.

  42. #42 Science Avenger
    February 21, 2009

    WW said: I still don’t understand why you hate Behe so much. He put forward a falsifiable hypothesis…

    And then expected others to do the experimental work for him, because he had more “fruitful” things to do with his time than…science.

  43. #43 Dr. J
    February 21, 2009

    WW said: I still don’t understand why you hate Behe so much. He put forward a falsifiable hypothesis…

    And then expected others to do the experimental work for him, because he had more “fruitful” things to do with his time than…science.

    Come on, you expect a scientist to do science? What wacky world do you live in?

    Of course, if by “fruitful” Behe means making himself money by fleecing the wackaloons that buy his books, they he is correct, not doing science is more fruitful.

  44. #44 thingsbreak
    February 21, 2009

    This is quite possibly the greatest thing I’ve ever read. EVAR.

  45. #45 Dr. J
    February 21, 2009

    opps, they = then (above)

  46. #46 Fitz
    February 21, 2009

    Optimus Primate @#31: NO CAPES!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M68ndaZSKa8

  47. #47 Bob O'H
    February 21, 2009

    …they didn’t seem to be as vitriolic toward each other as evolutionists are toward creationists.

    Or indeed, creationists are towards evolutionists, eh William? I really think you’re the last person to complain about people being nasty to others.

  48. #48 J-Dog
    February 21, 2009

    Casie, I mean Casey – REALLY had slides of … disemvowelled posts???? No shit??? In abn actuual real, PRESEN-FREAKIN – TATION???111 Beautiful work no doubt.

    Thanks for making them sweat Abbie – and NOT in a good way!

    ps: Thanks for the shout out to one of us Watchers too! XOXOX!

  49. #49 Citizen Z
    February 21, 2009

    Didn’t once hear a justification for the assumption that the creatures were aerodynamically optimized, though.

    That’s because they didn’t. You obviously weren’t paying close enough attention. If you follow the link you yourself provided, at the end of Part 4 the Narrator says “The question is, “Could it fly any other way?”. Part 5 starts “One way to find out is to create a model that can be flown in a wind tunnel to see how it performs. And for that they’ll need more than a skeleton.”

    They found a fossil with feathers, and made a model to find out if it could fly, and if it did, how it could’ve flown. That shouldn’t be that difficult of a concept.

  50. #50 James F
    February 21, 2009

    NelC #39,

    No, you’re right, it’s easy to visualize. But remember, this is a guy who thinks there are only five amino acids. I wouldn’t have been able to keep a straight face either.

    Good for Rhology for not letting a bald-faced lie about ERV go unchallenged. Earlier, we had an antievolution type at Panda’s Thumb admit she made a massive math error. It’s a trend I appreciate. Fair warning, though, neither of you guys can work for the Discovery Institute now! Admitting mistakes there is strictly verboten.

  51. #51 Sili
    February 21, 2009

    I could draw butane (&c) with my eyes closed. And on a good day I might be able to name (and match!) the five nucleic acids.

    But the aas? Never managed to pick them up.

    I did once learn to name octahedral coördination compounds, though.

    Abbie, you’re the Genie Scott of the Future. Brava!

  52. #52 Stephen Wells
    February 21, 2009

    William, scientists tend to be vitriolic about creationists for much the same reason that geographers would get a tad testy if the flat-earth society demanded equal time in the classroom while refusing to provide any actual maps.

  53. #53 Wayne
    February 21, 2009

    Mr Wallace @#34,

    You state

    “In contrast, I just watched a Nova documentary on a dispute among scientists regarding some creature that has feathers on its arms and legs. While I did sense that there may have been dormant and seething hostility than what was reflected in the documentary,

    There isn’t hostility. There’s a difference of opinion about the interpretation of evidence. Sometimes it’s emotional, but no more so than a discussion between fans of opposing sports teams. That’s natural: scientists are people.

    they didn’t seem to be as vitriolic toward each other as evolutionists are toward creationists.

    They are all engaged in the same pursuit: knowledge. They have opinions but they are open to being convinced by the evidence that others offer. (In case it’s not clear, it’s about evidence and testable predictions, not opinions.)

    Yet it is hilarious to watch scientists behave as though their composite three-dimensional sculptures become scientific since they use a wind tunnel at MIT.

    On what basis do they think that the creature they’re studying was optimized for aerodynamics?

    It was optimised through evolution; through the accumulation of traits over time.

    … At best, you could say something like “If these creatures were aerodynamically optimized by evolution, and if our sculptors did their job, the creatures probably looked like this.”

    Didn’t once hear a justification for the assumption that the creatures were aerodynamically optimized, though.

    They did justify this. They analysed a number of ways the creature could have used feathers on the hind legs for flight. Some of the hypotheses didn’t work. The raptor fell as quick as if it couldn’t fly. Some did work. If none had worked and no new hypothesis was forthcoming, they likely would have admitted that the creature couldn’t fly and sought alternative explanations for the features.

    I’m sure if you sought out the papers written about this you’d see that clearer. It was, after all, a television program for the general public. And, it wasn’t the scientists who made it. So, if you want to take someone to task for not presenting enough evidence, it would be the producers.

    If a creationist were to build a “scientific” model of a water-dwelling creature that could hold a man alive for three days in its stomach, and evaluated the model using scientific tools, it would be ridiculed immediately as ridiculous by the evolanders.

    If a creationist were to build a testable hypothesis and offer evidence, science would be happy, even eager, to consider it. We love to learn new things.

    Stories are not evidence, though they may lead you to evidence. Carl Sagan wrote (in his novel Contact) “Any faith that admires truth, that strives to know God, must be brave enough to accommodate the universe.” Admire truth. Learn about the universe. Then you will know God.

  54. #54 Doc Bill
    February 21, 2009

    As you know, WW, as I believe you are partially literate, Behe’s “claims” have been disproved over and over. His botched probability calculations in Edge have been written up and printed.

    No matter. Behe doesn’t care. He still tells the mousetrap story, for Monkey’s sake!

    Nobody “hates” Behe. By all accounts Behe is a nice and gentle family man and a good teacher. He also writes well, although I don’t agree with his thesis.

    I realize, WW, that you need “hate” so you feel persecuted and people will pity you. Whatever.

    Behe is simply not respected and he has lost his standing in the scientific community. Nobody takes him seriously.

    Same for Luskin, although in Gerbil Boy’s case he never had any standing to begin with. Luskin, Behe and the rest of the creationists are insulting on an intellectual level, no matter how “polite” they appear. Like a turd in a punchbowl, they float like ice, but unlike ice are unwanted and revolting.

  55. #55 Monado
    February 21, 2009

    It’s not “hate Michael Behe;” it’s “despise Michael Behe.” Once of science’s unanswered questions is, Is Michael Behe a liar or just an idiot? In 2003, he perjured himself by testifying that there was no peer-reviewed scientific research. In the course of a simple Web search I
    * found that the first major scientific conferences on molecular evolution were held in the 1960s,
    * found universities with departments of molecular evolution
    * located online copies of some of the classic papers in molecular evolution, and
    * linked to 32 scientific journals with articles about molecular evolution. I mean different journals put out by different publishers, such as the Journal of Molecular Evolution, published for over 30 years, and the journal, Molecular Biology and Evolution, published since 1984. I stopped listing them after that because I was tired but I could easily have tripled that number.

    In 2008, Ed Brayton found Behe contradicting himself by first by declaring that forcing students to subscribe to an idea [presumably evolution] was bad pedagogy and then stating that in case of conflict, the Christian Bible must override scientific fact.

    He tortures mathematics and ignores the real world of chemistry to get it to produce the answers he wants, kind of like the engineers who “mathematically proved” that a bumblebee can’t fly by assuming that it was a fixed-wing aircraft!

    Finally, he uses facts that are just plain wrong to support his pre-determined conclusions. See The Behe Blunder.”

    I hope that helps.

  56. #56 Josh
    February 21, 2009

    There isn’t hostility. There’s a difference of opinion about the interpretation of evidence.

    Uh, you’re not a paleontologist are you? There has been heated, sometimes caustic, hostility between the bird-to-dinosaur group and the no-bird-to-dinosaur group for decades. If anything, this got worse as feathered theropods started turning up in Liaoning. Overall, I thought your comment was really good (except for the use of the word “raptor” to refer to a dromaeosaurid–that’s a personal pet peeve though, not your fault), but to say that there’s no rancor between those two factions in the study of bird origins simply isn’t accurate.

  57. #57 LanceR, JSG
    February 21, 2009

    William Wallace, “affectionately” known as Limp Willy: Just another liar for jesus. Gets himself banned from Pharyngula, look up why, then whines over half the blogs here that he was banned for “challenged over gate-crashing incidents”. What part of “He had an invitation” do you not understand?

    Anyway, your inability to understand what your betters are doing does not in any way lessen their work. In short, you are a foul, ignorant, petty little man who cannot even follow his *OWN* commandments.

    Liar.

  58. #58 LostMarbles
    February 21, 2009

    Apparently Casey Luskin is still a bit butthurt, so he sent a BAAAAAW-mail to Michael Egnor

  59. #59 Wayne
    February 21, 2009

    Josh at #55,

    Nope, I’m not a paleontologist; just a guy that watched the show. I’m an engineer so I likely missed the social cues. ;-)

    Sorry about the raptor reference. It was taken from the Nova episode too. I did say it was like fans of opposing sports teams, so maybe I did pick up on the hostility after all.

  60. #60 eddie
    February 21, 2009

    WW – “I haven’t seen Julie’s posts, but…”

    Isn’t this exactly the sort of “I wasn’t there and you were but I get to tell you what happened” bullshit that got you into the pharyngula dungeon?

    Please show signs you are at least trying to learn from your mistakes.

  61. #61 Josh
    February 21, 2009

    Wayne, no harm done. There was really no reason for you to have been in on the ridiculous of the dinosaur world.

    Sorry about the raptor reference.

    No worries. It has just driven me crazy since Jurassic fucking park ;)

  62. #62 William Wallace
    February 21, 2009

    Thanks Josh for setting the record straight[#55].

    Can you provide a reference where they made that specific assumption?

    My recollection was that they were trying to determine if the creature was sprawled or not by using a wind tunnel.

    If my memory is correct, their reasoning was the feathers had a shape like an airfoil, and therefore must have been used for flight (as opposed to attracting mates, for example).

    The two competing sculptures were tested in a wind tunnel to see which of them would be more conducive to flight.

    I’ll watch the documentary again. I of course am not a paleontologist and possibly did not pay enough attention.

    [#56]What part of “He had an invitation” do you not understand?

    LOL. PZ never claimed to have an invitation, not on his youtube video whinefest with Dawkins anyway. He claimed he registered like everybody else, viz., using the RSVP system.

    Or do you mean an “invitation” as in the crash the private screening idea put forth by one of his commenters?

  63. #63 Tyler DiPietro
    February 21, 2009

    Dude, let it go. The Expelled crew displayed rank hypocrisy, just accept it and move on.

  64. #64 Optimus Primate
    February 21, 2009

    Fitz #46, d’oh! How silly of me to forget! I was originally going to suggest tights, but feared that might be taken the wrong way.

  65. #65 Doc Bill
    February 21, 2009

    Casey didn’t have the balls to write his own lame reply on the Disco website, so he had his Mama Crowther do it for him.

    Poor Attack Gerbil Luskin! Must hide widdle body behind Mama Crother’s skirt.

    Freedom of Speech, of course, is NOT ALLOWED on the Disco website. No, that’s for the little people, right Crowther?

  66. #66 LanceR, JSG
    February 21, 2009

    Liar. Posting a public website is considered a public invitation. Anyone could register for an invite, and several people did so. When PZ showed up, the IDiots there decided to make a big deal out of expelling the feared PZ.

    Thou shalt not bear false witness, right? Can’t even follow your own rules?

  67. #67 Sven DiMilo
    February 21, 2009

    I saw the Nova show on Microraptor.
    Teh Controversy = Larry Martin.
    WW’s recollections are about right. They were testing a model in a wind tunnel with various wing and hindlinb postures and measuring total lift with a force transducer of some sort. The configuration that generated maximum lift was greeted as The One with great surprise and congatulations all around. I actually agree that the work (as portrayed) was laden with assumptions that were not discussed on the TV program. For one thing (and to be fair, they were explicit about this), they were testing its effectiveness at gliding, not in powered flight. No alternative function for the hindlimb “wings” were discussed: display, braking, etc.

    But this is OT…nice job vs. Luskin, AS!

  68. #68 Josh
    February 22, 2009

    Teh Controversy = Larry Martin.

    With Microraptor, yeah, it’s mostly Larry. Regarding the dinosaurian origins of Aves, though, there are a bunch. This debate, while mostly over, isn’t new.

  69. #69 Joe Fatzenyatz
    February 22, 2009

    I just came here for the tits.

    /not disappointed

  70. #70 Joe Fatzenyatz
    February 22, 2009

    He claimed he registered like everybody else, viz., using the RSVP system.

    You realize that the website registration offered open invitation to anyone who signed up, yes? Almost no one was “personally invited,” if that’s what you’re trying to skew it as.

    You logged on, signed up, and went. “You and your community are invited to attend FREE of charge!”

    There were no litmus conditions.

  71. #71 rrt
    February 22, 2009

    Yup, that’s what he’s trying to skew it as. But if you aren’t familiar with WW, don’t bother trying. He lives in his own little ugly, righteous world.

  72. #72 Eric Saveau
    February 22, 2009

    And he’s had this explained to him in clear simple terms numerous times but just keeps right on hauling up the dismembered corpse of his ridiculous assertion to publicly fellate it, as he’s done here. It’s an old, tired, moth-eaten shtick.

  73. #73 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    February 22, 2009

    squeeeeeeeeeeeek

  74. #74 Wolfhound
    February 22, 2009

    Sweet jeezus, Wee Willie Wanker, would you just shut your fucking trap for once? Still beating that dead horse to a fine, pink mist over your lies centering around an event you didn’t witness at the screening for a piece of shit movie that was a critical and financial disaster I see. How many times must your ass be handed to you before you learn what even a flatworm could pick up after just one bit of negative reinforcement?

  75. #75 Joe Fatzenyatz
    February 23, 2009

    And he’s had this explained to him in clear simple terms numerous times but just keeps right on hauling up the dismembered corpse of his ridiculous assertion to publicly fellate it, as he’s done here. It’s an old, tired, moth-eaten shtick.

    Perhaps this is in fact the crux of the problem for all Creationists? That they lack short- and mid-term memories? Certainly they all seem to share the trait that they forget every point made in every debate with them since… like… ever, and just reiterate the same talking points they had in the beginning.

  76. #76 Rhology
    February 23, 2009

    In case anyone is interested, I have posted my own review of the evening in question. Cheers!

  77. #77 Paul Lundgren
    February 23, 2009

    Abbie, you’ll never buy your own drinks in any bar I occupy at the same time. Thanks for some Monday amusement at the expense of the twits.

  78. #78 dNorrisM
    February 24, 2009

    Butane? (Sorry if mentioned above- I havn’t read them all) Cue Monty Python’s Holy Grail routine:

    Q: YOU MUST ANSWER 3 QUESTIONS: WHAT IS THE STRUCTURE OF BUTANE?
    A: N or ISO?
    Q: I DON’T KNOW THAT!
    Q goes flying off into the ravine.

  79. #79 ERV
    February 24, 2009

    dNorrisM–
    Q: YOU MUST ANSWER 3 QUESTIONS: WHAT IS THE STRUCTURE OF BUTANE?
    A: N or ISO?
    Q: I DON’T KNOW THAT!
    Q: goes flying off into the ravine.

    +5 internets to you sir/madame!

  80. #80 Alan Smithee
    February 24, 2009

    Just curious, who exactly is this “BlackBlogger” person? Is he just some random right-wing dumbass law student?

  81. #81 Jason
    February 24, 2009

    LOL on the Butane and and Amino Acid questions.

    Though, I’m sure he meant nucleic acids instead of amino acids. Still – disturbing much!

    Also, Abbie, I hope you don’t lump me in with the IDiots because of the paper I’d sent you about large tracts of noncoding DNA containing functionally active RNA?

  82. #82 Inoculated Mind
    February 24, 2009

    What, no recording?

    Personally, I don’t think that you should have flipped him off. I’ve been there with discussions with other people. I’ve felt like the only solution to a dispute or two involves Klingon Batleths and vows of slaying. But that strategy always loses on points on one of the Federated Planets. A sharp word from a quick wit (such as what you display on your blog here) does a lot more for diminishing your opponent than a finger. But he really is too sensitive, I almost feel sorry for him.

    I’m glad that you tussled intellectually with the un-armed Luskin, and it is quite a compliment that the evidence they conjure up about censoring debate is a battle with a blog troll. Luskin is lying through his teeth when he says that he knows nothing about people being banned from Dembski’s blog. They will complain loudly, angrily, and repeatedly, and fewer and fewer people will listen to them. And then we win. But slowly.

  83. #83 The skepTick
    February 26, 2009

    I really think Casey’s response to this whole affair is a simple case of unrequited love. I’m sure Abbie can find something redeeming behind those unshaven jowls. In the meantime, here’s my contribution in honor of a fine moment.

  84. #84 Rhology
    February 26, 2009

    #82 – A recording was made, by Trinity Baptist. I don’t know if they intend it for general consumption, but I think they do. When/if it becomes available, I’ll post a link here.

  85. #85 Bryan Elliott
    June 12, 2009

    “You cant draw butane so I dont believe anything youve said”

    (1) Complete non-sequitur. You’d think a law student would know that.
    (2) /\/ Easy.

  86. #86 RLAJay
    March 22, 2011

    “Another nasty character was some law school student and Creationist (he believes humans were specially created) who also took part in the screaming. After the presentation, I patiently waited for a break in the conversation a friend was having to ask friend if he wanted to grab a beer. As I was waiting, Creationist law student came up to me “Is he your beta?” (implying Im an alpha male and my friend was my bitch, ie PUA”

    This gave me a good laugh. Thanks.

  87. #87 Justicar
    July 4, 2011

    OK, I got linked here from your Rebecca watson post in which you mention “treefrog72″. Treefrog is the name of my druid. And on here you mention gnomes; my main is a gnome shadow priest.

    I am now scared for reasons I don’t fully understand.

  88. #88 Justicar
    July 4, 2011

    OK, after reading the comments, I think I know why the 5 amino acids question is laughed at.

    It’s easy to name all five of them, unless you do it in alphabetical order. Amirite? Am I?! *crosses toes*

  89. #89 pornalysis
    August 26, 2011

    I just read through this post and I am trying to see the difference between your actual harassment at this event, and Rebbecas feigned harassment in EVgate.

    As far as I can see, you are a risk taker, which is far more feminist, far more more bold, and based in reality, not hypothetical supposition.

    Your argument is from fact, not supposition, your risk entailed potential for actual sanctions or penalties, like censure, and possibly even someone callin’ the law–I can relate to that, whereas hers was a cowardly snipe from a victim stance hidden behind te innernetz.

    Oh: the other main difference is that you stood your ground alone instead of making your appeal to the alpha-male pretenders of science blogs.

    Something to be said for building slow, and fighting your own battles–without that monolithic club ready to murder open minds.

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