I mean for Petes sake:

Chronic fatigue syndrome researcher Judy Mikovits arrested

I mean, this is funny. No doubt this is funny.

Its funny to see The Patient Community defending Mikovits, the woman who said she didnt have a problem lying to patients when it was convenient for her.

Its funny to see The Patient Community ‘figure out’ what is going on, including the hypothesis that *I* stole the stuff (I SO DID, YOU GUAIS! I USED MY STAR TREK TRANSPORTER TO TELEPORT INTO THE WPI SEPTEMBER 30TH! I DIDNT FIGURE THIS OUT FROM PUBLICLY AVAILABLE INFO, LOL!) and that Judy is going to get shanked by Simon Wessley.

Its funny to see the WPI, like Frankenstein, getting attacked by their own monster. The ‘mobilized patient community’ they happily encouraged to attack scientists who didnt support their XMRV–>CFS narrative, is now attacking them. Its funny, and I love it.

However, I need to make it clear that I dont give a rats ass about the WPI and their books of useless notes (Im assuming everything connected to the XMRV–>CFS paper was curiously convenient contamination or active withholding of information, nothing is to believed) or their $5 flash drives or $1000 computer.

I mean, yes, Mikovits and the WPI are white trash, so yes its funny to see them fighting over a laptop and a stack of paper on ‘Judge Judy’.

But I really dont give a shit about the WPIs crap.

And I dont want Judy Mikovits in a county jail.

I want that piece of shit Science paper retracted.

I want Mikovits and Ruscetti and anyone connected to ‘withholding relevant information’ from the Science publication, causing MILLIONS and MILLIONS of dollars and man-hours of some of the smartest people on the planet to be WASTED chasing a SNIPE, during a FUNDING CRISIS… I want their asses in a federal court, explaining to a judge why, exactly, they thought their behavior was appropriate.


  1. #1 ERV
    November 23, 2011

    Andy– “She may very well have had him convinced that she was being legitimately persecuted by a morally-bankrupt WPI.”

    I wrote a post about the affidavits, and didnt publish it because everyone involved with this case is fucking nuts, and I dont want to be sued, and you all are smart enough to figure this stuff out on your own–

    But my personal opinion is that there is a pattern of Mikovits manipulating people– She got Annette to fire Peterson (the MD who knew the patient cohort inside/out, thus one person who could have easily spotted their ‘strategic data arrangement’) and attack other scientists (specifically McClure and the Dutch group)– Annette knows nothing about science. Shes a regular mom. She believed what Mikovits told her. Mikovits has a segment of the CFS patient community brainwashed, as we all have seen.

    I think its very easy to come to the conclusion that Max was brainwashed, and when he got pushed too hard (asked to steal medical records and biological specimens) he woke up. Max spent his formative years as a Real Scientist, grad school, in an abnormal environment. Dissent from Mikovits/WPI was dealt with *harshly* (as opposed to the rest of us who are taught and encouraged to question our mentors). Mikovits was in a position of power over him in not only the Boss/Employee dynamic, but also the entirely inappropriate and too familiar Landlord/Tenant dynamic. Basic cult stuff there– silence dissent, keep out outside dissenting opinions, control all aspects of your victims lives.

    The landlord thing is totally inappropriate. When Bossman and I moved to OK, he thought about buying a house with a garage apartment for me to live in. Cheap rent for me! Help with mortgage for him and his wife! Hurray!

    And then he realized THAT WAS A VERY BAD IDEA, for legal reasons, for power balance reasons, for personal reasons, and literally *everyone* would think ‘Yeah, hes fucking her’ if we did something like that because it is just way too familiar. Thats not a ‘normal’ mentor/grad-student relationship.

    Which brings me back to what Ive been saying for two years– Mikovits literally had NO IDEA what the word ‘professional’ means.

  2. #2 RRM
    November 23, 2011

    Maybe this is farfetched, but I already wondered why Lombardi’s name wasn’t on the Simmons et al. Blood Working Group paper (especially when his involvement must have been substantial, as Mikovits primarely blamed him for the disastrous results afterwards).

    Mikovits and Pfost “represented” the WPI part. Almost seems like a small fuck you to Lombardi and a chance for Pfost to spruce up his resume with another Science publication. But, then again, he was responsible for the super-duper PCR optimization in the original paper, so perhaps that was the reason….

    And props to Trine, I must say. I only made sort of a joke pointing out that very small (2 day) error in her timeline but, whether she read it here or found out about it herself, actually corrected that tiny tidbit of information.

  3. #3 autiemum
    November 23, 2011

    Yup, Max Pfost only graduated in 2010 and WPI was his first job (says his Facebook page). He was born in Nevada, went to college in Nevada and worked in Nevada. That’s not extensive life experience. Judy’s press photos mostly show her looking little girlish, head tilted down, eyes peeping shyly up, hair all over the shop, “see me, I’m so little and unthreatening”. But Max’s affidavits show a different side. They start with angry Judy proclaiming that she is his boss and giving him orders. He then trots off to do what he is told, plainly knowing that it’s wrong (using lies and duplicity to enter the building and hide the things he’s taken). Further orders are issued to the female lab worker delivered by text message on Max’s phone. For whatever reason (age, experience,?) she ignores the message but she doesn’t report it.

  4. #4 daedalus2u
    November 23, 2011

    Right, and Nevada has the highest unemployment rate right now.

  5. #5 autiemum
    November 23, 2011

    sometimes he is praised (my grad student who invented these wonderful techniques that great scientists cannot understand) and sometimes he is shouted at. He runs personal errands (helps her move house, drives her to the airport)and lives in her rented apartment. People adore her. She makes grand statements about taking over the research from the WPI and “stopping Lipkin”. Megalomania can be hard to see through. She presents herself as all-powerful and gives orders. All that is hard to deal with at about 24.

  6. #6 gf1
    November 23, 2011

    I’m sure I’ve got lessons to learn from this, as I never expected intentional fraud to be behind the discordant XMRV findings. I still have no idea what they were thinking, or how they thought they could benefit from this. Mikovits drew so much attention to herself, and must have known that her techniques were going to be tested under independently blinded conditions. Maybe the lesson is “Remember scientists can do crazy self-destructive shit too.”

  7. #7 Btdt
    November 23, 2011

    @99, I agree that there’s a pattern here. And while I’m merely an interested observer from afar, the more I follow the saga, the more it appears that the behavior is reflecting a recognized psychopathology: BPD.

    In short, a reality is created that reflects well on the creator but is not, in fact, reality as perceived by others. The creator offers an earnest, rational, and convincing presentation of the reality. Then fierce, combative, sometimes baffling attacks on those who question the reality. And finally complex, high-energy, sometimes baffling actions to defend the reality when things start to fall apart. In the process, the creator may start to believe that the created reality is true and feel victimized, providing justification for whatever actions are taken to defend it.

    I have to wonder what JM’s early childhood was like. This all may smack of pop-psychology, but wow, it fits to a T.

    Regardless, it’s a terrible shame that such a person was able to inflict an awful fraud on a vulnerable community. Significant harm was done unto the patients JM charmed and persuaded, though the words/actions of the extremist fringe patients makes me wonder about THEIR psychopathologies too. Big props to erv for having the guts to persist in calling it like she saw it in the face of repeated attacks.

  8. #8 Andy Vaughan
    November 23, 2011

    @99 That’s my feelings on Max’s position as well. As you said, “Max spent his formative years as a Real Scientist, grad school, in an abnormal environment.”

    Poor guy. Assuming something along those lines is true, I hope he can somehow recover as a scientist after this.

  9. #9 popi
    November 23, 2011

    what about this:

    “One could hardly complete this first blog without commenting on the treatment meted out to Judy Mikovits by the WPI.It is my firm belief that the release of the affidavits was a calculated ploy.The aim of that ploy was to confuse Judy,s supporters and to until doubt regarding her innocence. The message that I believe the Whittmores were trying to convey was something like.”Hey guys what’s with all this criticism we are the injured party here, look at this evidence” When one penetrates the legalese however we see a paucity of facts with supposition and opinion spun to make the facts look incriminating when another interpretation would leave the reader wondering what all the fuss was about. So one interpretation would convey the impression that Dr Mikovits was guilty of wrongdoing and the other would convey the impression that she was totally innocent.I don’t think there is any question which version the Whittmores would like you to believe. Please don’t be fooled by legal trickery Dr Mikovits is blameless in this matter.”



  10. #10 ERV
    November 23, 2011

    Now, I am not a fancy big city lawyer (though between this and my stalker fun, Mom thinks I should graduate with a PhD and a JD), but I wouldnt call text and phone records, emails, and car rental and flight info is a ‘paucity of facts’.

  11. #11 Anonymouse
    November 23, 2011

    That forum — http://peoplewithme.com/blog/ — is being run by Gerwyn and V99 (aka MRV) with the uber bitch Angela Kennedy as part of the “staff”. It is a congregation of the most rabid lunatics who believe that Saint Judy (with the now tarnished halo) is totally innocent. Gerwyn went as far to say that the plea from Judy’s husband for everybody to STFU was actually written by the Whittemores. They believe that Max Pfosts statements are all lies written by the Whittemores. The burning stupid, it burns soooooooo bad. These are people who will believe in Saint Judy even if she is found guilty in a court of law with hundreds of pieces of evidence.

  12. #12 Justicar
    November 23, 2011

    would think ‘Yeah, hes fucking her’ if we did something like that because it is just way too familiar

    Wait a minute . . . he’s not? Ok, then I’m totally confused why you call him ‘daddy’ at work at ‘Bossman’ online.


  13. #13 Jules
    November 23, 2011

    Gerwyn the Confused, Toady-V99 and Steamroller Kennedy.

    Cheers for the alert on their new blog.

    Let’s hope that means they’ll be less active on the messedupforums where they (and a few others) have done so much to discredit the patient community.

  14. #14 bella
    November 23, 2011
  15. #15 mo (one of Abbies's elk)
    November 23, 2011

    Poor grad student. If you aren’t confident, everything from the PI can seem like words from god.

  16. #16 Mu
    November 23, 2011

    If you have to start your own blog because they censor you too much on mecfsforum for being a lunatic …

  17. #17 Anonymouse
    November 23, 2011

    Talking about lunatics. Dr. Jamie Deckoff-Jones has posted a new and bizarre blog — http://treatingxmrv.blogspot.com/

    Sounds like a disgruntled employee having a dig at an ex-boss.

  18. #18 got ilk?
    November 23, 2011

    Glory be! From WPI’s Facebook page:

    “Happy Thanksgiving

    Among the many things we are thankful for today are our friends, our family and our faith. We have a roof over our heads and good food to eat, and hope that this is true for each one of you. We are thankful that our researchers are making good progress towards understanding this disease and are closer to finding the answers we need to help those who are suffering. We are thankful that most of our property has been returned. Finally, we are thankful for each new day that brings with it a chance to heal.”

    Emphasis mine — “most of our property has been returned.”

    (VERY tempted to editorialize like Comedy Central does during the State of the Union, but there are important matters at hand…)

    Anyone care to speculate on how the “return of property” happened? According to various conspiracy theorists, Ian Lipkin stole the notebooks, ERV stole the notebooks, somebody named RRM and/or Billy stole the notebooks. But miraculously, the day after Judy is sprung from jail, the property returns. Huh…

    While we’re guessing… tomorrow do you think Max and his mother are will fight for the turkey wishbone across the Whittemore’s dinner table or Judy and David’s?

  19. #19 Justicar
    November 23, 2011

    Anonymouse, I read that blog, the most recent article. I know jack about setting up medical clinics, or anything of that sort, but I do know a snowjob when I read one. I’ll summarize: nothing Annette said was true, and I knew it, but I’m a sucker and went along with it all anyway because I was being paid. Then they fired me and asked if I’d volunteer to continue knowingly be lied to and cooperate and facilitate what I knew to be unethical marketing practices, which defrauded the poor and sick out of money they didn’t have.

    And Judy’s a victim, just like me. And the patients are the losers because Judy was ‘hogtied by incompetence [of Annette]”. Yes, there was incompetence there. In fact, it seems to be one of the few consistent qualities of the whole shebang. However, ineptitude isn’t an explanation for deception and running a con. Hand in hand with that incompetence was deceit and exploitation of sick people.


  20. #20 got ilk?
    November 24, 2011

    @116: Right on, Justicar. Can’t improve upon your verdict in this case.

  21. #21 Justicar
    November 24, 2011

    got ilk?: reading what those close to the whole mess write reminds me of a small child trying to explain what happened to the cookies in the cookie jar. Yes yes, that’s all an amusing tale, young one, but you have crumbs on your face and chocolate on your fingers. So, I’m a little suspicious you just might be lying about those cookie-nabbing space invaders.

  22. #22 RRM
    November 24, 2011

    Don’t know if this is good news or bad news. From the WPI’s facebook page:

    We are thankful that most of our property has been returned

    I sure hope that WPI didn’t really “negotiate” with Mikovits in the sense that they would drop charges/allegations. Although it’s possible, I don’t see how Mikovits would have that much leverage anyway, and seeing that Mikovits hasn’t stopped JDJ and the members from sheeplewithme.com from posting more negative stuff about WPI, I doubt it.

    Also, from JDJ’s latest blog:

    There are issues with not just who owns, but who can even see the notebooks. [Judy Mikovits] said to me that the notebooks documented mistakes that others wouldn’t want brought to light, something she had only realized recently

    Ah, she was only trying to protect Lombardi? Makes sense…

  23. #23 mary
    November 24, 2011

    Damn, I feel bad for Max..Maybe he can make a deal with WPI and at least get a pay check otherwise, he may have to move to a 3rd world country for a job.

    My relationship with my PI was great. Yup, I knew that I was a well educated slave, being low man on the totem. However, that position was never abused by anyone in the lab. I had the utmost faith and trust in him, he held my future in that lab. I remember him flying into the lab, coat flaring out around him, pulling his hair, yelling “Now what have you done” but also crediting me on my successes.

    Even though he held my life and future, I let him know that it would be painful to anyone who messed with my future. It was a mutual trust..(eventually!)

  24. #24 OWE
    November 24, 2011

    @got ilk?, 116,

    But don’t you understand? Lipkin, ERV, RRM and all the others returned the items in a concerted action to make it LOOK like Judy returned them…This shows how far the conspiracy goes (I am probably part of it to – will have to ask Gerwyn)! Fortunately, Gerwyn will find out the truth and tell us!

    Re Max. Honest people deserve a second chance!


  25. #25 Jack
    November 24, 2011

    Excuse me absence and me language but:

    What a fucking mess!

    You couldn’t make this up. Longest running soap-opera worth following since Dallas. And it still has legs.

    Will the ‘mistakes’ ever see the light of day? Will Harvey pull the plug? Will Voldemort reveal himself? Will Dobby stop using ‘Mad Max’? Will Dr D-J add any more spin?

    The full retraction of that ‘science’ paper will surely be an anticlimax now!

  26. #26 got ilk?
    November 24, 2011

    @122 OWE: By George – I think you’ve got it! A conspiracy to cover-up the conspiracy by framing someone else. Brilliant! George Clooney can get 10 of his best pals in the biz to make the movie!

    I agree that honest people deserve a second chance. Hard to see how Max could be considered honest. Foolish maybe, but not honest. Now that Amanda, I like. Would have been nice for her to tip somebody off to Judy’s insane requests though…

    From a comment on JDJ’s blog:
    “Thank you, Dr. Jamie, for filling in the missing pieces. I appreciate all you have done for us and all you continue to do for us. Ignore the idiotic comments on here; there are many people who are actively working against the ME community and the truth of ZMRVs in ME ever being taken seriously, as you know.”

    Can someone please tell me WTF a “ZMRV” is? And did anyone know we ilk were working against them?

  27. #27 eek
    November 24, 2011

    It ain’t over until it’s over. Ever hear of a police investigation being conducted where the person confesses to a notary public employee by the institution in which he works. This is a police investigation. He has Miranda Rights and the right to an attorney. Were these confessions done at a police station witnessed by a detective. Did the criminal investigation ends because the parties involved return the stolen material shook hands and adios.

    This is a criminal police investigation! The evidence is collected and presented to the DA who determines what charges will be filed or to a secret grand jury. The parties negotiate with the DA not the WPI. Something strange is going on here. There is more stuff to drop.

    At the minimum, you have all of the events as stated were true you have: conspiracy to commit a crime, stolen property, crossing state lines with the intent to commit a crime, crossing state lines in the commission of felony, stolen goods possession, research espionage, interfering in the operations of a business, stealing Federal property, using emails in the commission of a crime which could invoke RICO, destruction of stolen property, fraud…to name just a few. I believe the Feds will sooner or later get involve. On the other hand if Judy’s version plays out, you will have false reporting of everything, filing false police reports, false imprisonment, perjury, libel, slander, defamation of character etc.

    All of this is a bit odd though.

    Max’s affidavit would be thrown out at criminal trial as it violates his First Amendment Rights. Maybe, they knew that?

  28. #28 RRM
    November 24, 2011

    @got ilk

    Zoonotic Murine leukemia virus-Related Virus

    It’s apparently to convey the fact that not all the viruses that Mikovits contaminated her lab with are xenotropic.

  29. #29 mo (one of Abbies's elk)
    November 24, 2011

    On the other hand if Judy’s version plays out, you will have false reporting of everything, filing false police reports, false imprisonment, perjury, libel, slander, defamation of character etc.

    And she will stop the Lipkin study!!!!111!

  30. #30 OWE
    November 24, 2011

    @RRM, 126


    ZMRV = Zero Murine leukemia virus-Related Virus

    fit the facts better? 🙂


  31. #31 mary
    November 24, 2011

    @ 125 eek, Law degree by google? No..Max doesn’t need to be mirandized..that right is reserved for those arrested (like Judy..) in most cases. Max gave a sworn statement, all he needed to do was admit to being truthful..

    The 1st ammendment applies to those whose speech has been hindered. Max was not hindered, and thankfully came clean by voluntering this info..

    Didn’t need a lawyer, and obviously didn’t want one..tho to save himself I would recommend getting one..Hopefull WPI realizes that they hired someone who was batshit insane (love that title for her) and not hold Max’s actions against him. GOBBLE GOBBLE everyone!

  32. #32 Poodle Stomper
    November 24, 2011

    “Anyone care to speculate on how the “return of property” happened? According to various conspiracy theorists, Ian Lipkin stole the notebooks, ERV stole the notebooks, somebody named RRM and/or Billy stole the notebooks. But miraculously, the day after Judy is sprung from jail, the property returns. Huh…”

    I’m going to vote for “Judy returned it and begged not to be thrown in jail for a long time”.

  33. #33 Poodle Stomper
    November 24, 2011

    I do wonder a bit why (specifically) she wanted to stop the Lipkin study. I’m going to guess that she feared it could reveal details of the “contaminations”. She could be using the “just recently found out about naughty stuff going on” BS to prep her band of loony disciples to accept that the coming results of the Lipkin study aren’t her fault. Anyone else want to take a stab at it?

  34. #34 eek
    November 24, 2011

    @129 I meant the 5th amendment rights. ‘You know fruit from the poison tree’ He confesses to serious felonious crimes and the police grab the affidavit and arrest him as proof that he actually committed the crimes. I mean there is no info on any duress that could have been applied in the civil affidavit.

  35. #35 Mu
    November 24, 2011

    My guess: The return of the notebooks was a condition for bail. If they would have been found during one of the searches they would probably stay as evidence, and WPI would talk about recovered, not returned.

  36. #36 RRM
    November 24, 2011

    Shit man, the point is that he confessed to a private party. I am sure he was under duress, but he was not pressured by police or something. The idea behind the 5th amendment is to protect you from the evul goverment, not from confessions made to third parties.

    And even if (hypothetically speaking) Pfost’s rights were violated, I seriously doubt whether the ‘fruits from the poisonous tree’ doctrine would apply (it certainly would not where I live). After all, in the case against Mikovits Pfost’s statement would be regarded as witness testimony – no constitutional right of Mikovits would be violated through accepting it as evidence.

  37. #37 Dave Ruddell
    November 24, 2011

    A little OT, but since her name came up, does anyone know the correct pronunciation of Trine Tsouderos’ first name? Does it rhyme with ‘brine’, or is it something like ‘Trinny’?

    Speaking of names, whenever I see a reference to the Whittemore’s, I always think of the character of Charles Whidmore from Lost. I can’t be the only one, right?

  38. #38 RRM
    November 24, 2011


    Sorry, I was replying to #133. However:

    I don’t think it’s likely that the return was a condition for bail. First, it does not make sense to have a condition that relies on the suspect incriminating him/herself. Of course, a judge could refuse bail because he’s afraid that evidence might be destroyed (and a suspect could take that suspicion away by giving away the evidence). However, I don’t think that any admission of guilt could ever be set as a condition for bail beforehand.

    Second, the trial proceedings were public and there is no record of such a condition.

  39. #39 DrDuke
    November 24, 2011

    Trine Tsouderos’ first name is pronounced like Tree-nah.

  40. #40 daedalus2u
    November 24, 2011

    My guess is that it is Mr Judy who returned the notebooks. He probably knows her better than anyone and doesn’t want the hole she is in to get any deeper.

    I suspect that after the notebooks were returned, WPI had no objections to JM being out on bail.

    What I think will/should happen is that the WPI should hire someone competent and honest (I hear ERV is competent and could use some $$$) to go through the notebooks with a fine toothed comb for anything that is of value in them. I think that ERV could do that in ~100 hours, about a normal week for her. At $150 per hour, that would be ~$15k, add $5k for travel and the total is still chump change compared to what will be spent on lawyers and investigations. Then WPI would know what they have, scrap paper that is worth $0.10 per pound or something else.

    The risk for ERV is that she might get caught up in the legal wrangling that could go on for years. If there is nothing of value in the notebooks, then there is nothing worth spending years of legal wrangling over. The way she might avoid that is with an escalation clause on her consulting; $150/hr for the first 100 hours, $300/hr for the next 100, $600/hr for the next 100, $1200/hr for the next 100 and so on. At some point it becomes cheaper to settle and not do anything that to keep ERV involved.
    WPI might not want it known that there is nothing of value in the notebooks because then they can’t sell them for big $$$.

    The WPI lawyers probably don’t want to know if the notebooks are valuable or not. They have to make what ever case they are going to make independent of the facts, that is easier if they don’t even know what the facts are.

  41. #41 In Vitro Infidelium
    November 24, 2011

    #1321 I meant the 5th amendment rights. ‘You know fruit from the poison tree’ He confesses to serious felonious crimes and the police grab the affidavit and arrest him as proof that he actually committed the crimes. I mean there is no info on any duress that could have been applied in the civil affidavit.

    The traditional (Anglian, Scotish and aligned legal systems) position provides for a clear separation of civil and criminal codes. An affidavit in a civil case is not equivalent to a witness statement taken by a police officer. Although an affidavit could be introduced as evidence in criminal trial it would have to meet all the rules of evidence, given how strongly the US system recognises the right to not self incriminate, it seems likely that a self incriminating affidavit might fall foul of the rules of evidence. Nevertheless giving a self incriminating account of a criminal act in an affidavit without having independent legal advice is very unwise. The ‘notary’ is a court officer and convincing a criminal court that an affidavit was sworn under duress can be a very difficult thing to achieve. Looks like Pfost got caught between competing interests neither side of which could give a damn about his well being.

  42. #42 Anonymouse
    November 24, 2011

    Regarding the affadavit. Harvey Whittemore is a lawyer. The WPI has lawyers and uses them regularly. You can bet they crossed all the t’s and dotted the i’s when this affadavit was recorded. It has been filed as evidence in the civil case which was initiated by the Whittemores. I am sure by now, the police have had Max Pfost sign a statement that can be used later in any criminal proceeding. Also, it there is actually a criminal trial, he would be called to give evidence under oath.

    There is no evidence that the Whittemores don’t give a damn about Max Pfost. His name still appears on their list of researchers, they erased Mikovits within a day. He doesn’t seem to have been arrested. Who knows. It’s too bad he decided to drink Mikovits purple kool-ade though.

  43. #43 daedalus2u
    November 24, 2011

    Max Pfost is much more valuable to WPI as a friendly witness than he is as someone being criminally prosecuted. He has no $$$, he was a dumb naïve graduate who drank the JM koolaid. How many of the other people at the WPI drank the koolaid too?

    Someone with nothing to gain from the outcome of the civil trial (Max Pfost has no financial interest in WPI, I assume) makes him a very credible witness against JM. If he was there when all the shit happened, when all the “mistakes” were made in the notebooks and when they were noted to be mistakes, he can testify about them.

    If he can testify as to the timeline of the test development, then he really is the key to much of what the civil suits are going to be about. If he is potentially in criminal jeopardy, then he can take the fifth and say nothing.

  44. #44 got ilk?
    November 24, 2011

    @140: “You can bet they crossed all the t’s and dotted the i’s when this affadavit was recorded.”

    Based on the way this whole thing has gone, I’d bet Harvey and his crack legal team crossed all the i’s and dotted the t’s, Nevada-style.

  45. #45 RRM
    November 24, 2011

    Someone with nothing to gain from the outcome of the civil trial (Max Pfost has no financial interest in WPI, I assume) makes him a very credible witness against JM.

    Well, if he keeps his job at WPI and no criminal charges are pressed against him I’d say you could certainly attack his credibility as a witness (seen in isolation, that is).

    On the upside, he has given a lot of verifiable information, and that is much more important. For instance, all of the (supposed) emails sent from the secret accounts are undoubtedly read by the authorities and I guess (for several reasons) they corroborate Pfost’s account.

  46. #46 eek
    November 24, 2011

    Puzzling how a lowly notary public from the WPI was able to ‘get’ him to ‘confess’ on a sworn affidavit no less. If he was willing to confess and since the police had been notified and the investigation had been turned over to them, why didn’t they just call the police? I mean there are some issues surrounding his 5th Amendment Rights. What was in it for him to confess? All I see is nothing but downside, being made the ‘fall’ guy between the two groups?

  47. #47 Anonymouse
    November 24, 2011

    Could it be that Mikovits is a saint after all.

    From the forum full of people who beleive Mikovits is a saintly saint.

    “I have been given permission to tell everyone that although Judy is going through so much herself right now, she has taken out the time to get her husband to email Jacqueline Mc Gorrigan to inform her that she (Judy) would be sending nutrients over to Ireland for Andrew. Can you imagine her thinking of Andrew right now? I know I can. This is so typical of her kindness.”

    Or could it be this act of kindness is just an attempt to manipulate patients.

    Judy, Judy, Hey Judy, I could use a bottle of wine or two to ease my physical pain. Thanks. I will post what a saintly sainted saint you are when I receive the bribe, oops I mean saintly sainted gift.

  48. #48 daedalus2u
    November 24, 2011

    A notary doesn’t vouch for his state of mind, only that the notary checked his ID and so can attest to the signature and the date it was signed.

    Because the notebooks were outside of a chain of custody, the contents need to be testified to by whoever wrote in them, or read them, or signed the pages.

    A lowly technician can’t be the “fall guy”. He didn’t submit the proposals, he didn’t submit the manuscripts to journals, he didn’t supervise the work, he didn’t decide the course of research and what protocols were appropriate for what tests. Those are all the job of the PI. If the PI wants to earn the big bucks, and get all the glory, the PI has to take the responsibility.

  49. #49 Tree
    November 25, 2011

    You know they say there is a silver lining in every dark cloud. I hear Judy is going to make a documentary with Sarah Palin called “Going Rogue in Reno”. The WPI not to be outdone is seeking to raise money through a new hit T.V. reality show called “The Princess Diaries” ROFL

  50. #50 autiemum
    November 25, 2011

    Would not the WPI’s need to get the notebooks back has something to do with the grants which the notebooks represent. That is public money has been given for research. The notebooks prove that that research has been done. They also provide evidence that the WPI is competent ie doesn’t lose its documentation. Otherwise (perhaps) they might have to give the grants back or certainly not get any more if there is no evidence to support their proper use.

    Also the notebooks would show what research was done and by whom. If the research has been fraudulent I take it that the notebooks would confirm or not confirm that. Judy was summarily dismissed. If she were going to bring legal action against the WPI then the notebooks would be important to that.

    Just losing the notebooks or allowing them to be carried off would show the WPI as inept (when asking for public funds) and reduce their chances of a successful defence against legal claims from Judy.

    These seem adequate reasons for making strenuous efforts to get them back to me. The Koolaid may simply have worn off Max when Judy wasn’t there to top it up.

  51. #51 Camaro
    November 25, 2011

    This also made it today into the German news: “burglary charges – well-known US researcher sent to court”


    Bekannte US-Forscherin muss vor Gericht”


  52. #52 In Vitro Infidelium
    November 25, 2011

    #144 What was in it for him to confess? All I see is nothing but downside, being made the ‘fall’ guy between the two groups?

    I don’t think it is safe to assume that the WPI has been acting with absolute prescience. It seems that Pfost’s role in the removal of the notebooks came to light in an internal, not a police investigation, and that the WPI then started on the process of civil action. Pfost may have been induced to co-operate with the WPI civil case on the basis that he would not be enjoined in the action or even suffer consequences in his employment status. It may only be after this that the WPI actually realised it had to report the criminal act to protect its own position. Of course that’s the charitiabe interpretation, if the WPI made promises to Pfost knowing that he’d still face criminal liability, then he could be considered to have been ‘stitched up’. There is a possibility though that the WPI lawyers have lined up a ‘get out’ for Pfost relating to the ‘conspiracy’ charge so the WPI may not be guilty of cutting Pfost adrift. On paper though Pfost’s position looks horribly exposed and unless the emails are unequivocal, Mikovits could give a story which places the construction of the conspiracy and theft on Pfost, the WPI simply sitting back as innocent victim. Pfost may have been lucky though in resolving the ‘prisoner dilema’ by having a police interview in advance of Mikovits and been able to get an immunity deal from the Nevada prosecutors in return for a promise his testimony.

  53. #53 autiemum
    November 25, 2011

    I think a big step into criminality is to lie when asked a straight question by someone entitled to ask it ie an employer. As the affidavits describe Max has been foolish and underhand, nay deceitful. But lying when asked directly would be another big step away from safety and he may have felt he couldn’t take it. His trust was running out when he refused to post the notebooks. His co-worker got a message from Judy and refused to act on it. These things would be signs to him that he had gone off the straight and narrow. There would have been others which we don’t know about. The best thing to do when you have gone astray innocently or foolishly is to get back on the straight and narrow asap and that is how his affidavits read to me.

  54. #54 Dave Ruddell
    November 25, 2011

    DrDuke, thanks for that.

  55. #55 RRM
    November 25, 2011

    Unfortunately not another scandal, but Mikovits sure is sloppy. From an earier comment by Camarro about the infamous Mikovits presentation with the magic trick:

    The posted link


    shows some slide of JM and I was directly stuck with slide no. 3 ’cause I saw this IP plot already in 2010 on JM poster in Prague at the “Centennial Retrovirus Meeting”.

    I just checked the original slide, and dear Sir/Madam, I want to have your memory:

    Slide as presented by Mikovits (from JDJ’s page):

    Original slide:

    Seems like she wanted to make a stronger case for “patient 1178” being positive, as Silverman had reported VP62 contamination in his “patient 1178” sample….

  56. #56 got ilk?
    November 25, 2011

    Where’s the “like” button for Tree @ 147? My TiVo is giddy with anticipation.

  57. #57 Mu
    November 25, 2011

    RRM@136 Sorry, I forgot that condition of bail has a fixed judicial meaning. I was more thinking along the lines “she has notebooks valued at $2,000,000 in her possession, we request that number to be the minimum bail. Oh, the notes have been returned, 100k surety is ok.”

  58. #58 Jack
    November 25, 2011

    How about…

    Max honestly believed that Knickerfits was the ‘rightful owner’ of said property, and wanted to help out his landlady. Then, when the furore began in earnest, decided perhaps she wasn’t and that he should come clean before getting into serious bother with the law?

    This is all about ownership of property isn’t it? And if Knickerfits could have walked out with the stuff herself she may well have done. Assuming of course that Max is indeed reporting a more truthful version of events and also assuming that those bloody notebooks were actually worth anything.

    And I don’t subscribe to Dr D-J’s reporting that the notebooks hide ‘mistakes’ either though it is fun imagining whose mistakes they might possible refer to and what those mistakes might possibly have been…

  59. #59 Jack
    November 25, 2011

    God bless Stanford:

    ‘Scientific Rock Star Crucified

    Initially, Dr. Judy Mikovits was riding high atop a building wave of fame after publishing one of the hottest papers of the year in one of the world’s premier scientific publications…

    Today, stunned observers wonder why the 53-year-old revolutionary scientist was forced to piss next to a mat in a Santa Paula jail cell surrounded by gang members, accused of being a felony-level criminal…’


  60. #60 RRM
    November 25, 2011

    The end of that article is crazy:

    All interested parties are urged to attend what is sure to be an informative hearing on a case that continuously grows in mystery, intrigue and questions regarding the motives of numerous parties.

    Did the celebrated scientist find out too much through her research, perhaps?

    Did she, who stands accused of conspiracy, actually stumble upon a broader conspiracy that became threatened by the findings of Dr. Judy Mikovits?

    What the fuck?

  61. #61 Stella
    November 25, 2011

    That’s a very weird article.

  62. #62 Ramon Mendoza
    November 25, 2011

    Simply Awesome! 🙂

  63. #63 Jack
    November 25, 2011

    I am giving Stanford the benefit of the doubt and assuming sarcasm throughout the article but maybe I am wrong 😉
    Just catching up with the ppt ‘debate’ over on Dr D-J’s blog – nice job with the vanishing patient samples btw 🙂

  64. #64 autiemum
    November 25, 2011

    @153 You say “not another scandal” but surely that is another relabelled slide?

  65. #65 Poodle Stomper
    November 25, 2011

    I would highly advise Judy not to start making claims about stumbling on a conspiracy, ect… When you start accusing a lawyer of BS to cover up your own fraud, you just double your trouble.

  66. #66 Justicar
    November 25, 2011

    Did the celebrated scientist find out too much through her research, perhaps?

    Yes, indeed she did. Her research into perpetrating a fraud has indicated (with a small sample size) that it is unwise to do that while simultaneously publishing the evidence of it in prominent magazines, and presenting it at public speeches and lectures.

    I can’t make sense of the last ‘what if’ scenario at all. Sorry.

  67. #67 Anonymouse
    November 25, 2011

    Thanks to anybody who added all the gel powerpoint stuff on the Deckoff-Jones blog. I assume it’s V99 who has been posting over and over that somebody stole the raw data. I felt all alone answering her stupid comments, and then voila, so many more good comments.

  68. #68 APatient
    November 25, 2011

    You’re welcome, Anonymouse. I have been banging my head against this wall for a long time now. There is no reasoning with some people.

  69. #69 Anonymouse
    November 25, 2011

    @APatient — I guess the point is not to try and get the very confused and addled people who seem to adhere to beliefs with no proof to change their mind. The point is to get people who may not be sure of what is going on to be able to access the facts. The proof has now conclusively been posted that the powerpoints presentations are the source of the raw data. If V99 and Gerwyn want to cling to their crazy beliefs that’s fine because it only makes them look stupid and unbelievable. I have known that all along but alas it takes some people longer to see the light. Confirmation bias and/or denial is strong in these people.

  70. #70 got ilk?
    November 25, 2011

    ERV, I need your help. From the moment things started to go south for dr. Judy, I’ve seen posts from people (sheeple) alleging that a primary (secondary, tertiary) reason critics were unfairly persecuting Judy is because she is a woman. This particular “feminist” has declared Judy a “political prisoner”: http://hysterical-woman.tumblr.com/post/13100686743/judy-mikovitz-jail-lawsuit-wpi

    I don’t dispute that Judy is a woman. But so is her former boss, Annette. So is Myra McClure, one of the authors on the first negative paper after Lombardi et al, and the one who did most of the talking after she published. Certainly the author that Judy, Annette and their ilk harrassed long after that paper was published. There are plenty of other women involved in the XMRV story. Look at the list of authors of the studies — Ila Singh, Kate Bishop, Konnie Knox, Brigitte Huber, Mary Kearney, Rachel Bagni, Oya Cingoz, Simone Glynn, Indira Hewlett, Nicole Fisher, Rika Furata, Susan Stramer, Lucinda Bateman, Carmen Schiebenbogen, Donna Felsenstein. (Sorry — my mostly Anglo-Saxon existence leaves me at a disadvantage for clues as to the sex of some of the authors of papers from outside the US – apologies to those women I’ve missed.) Maybe the men outnumber the men, but there aren’t many areas of science where that isn’t the case. There are also women journalists who’ve been important in reporting this story — Trine Tsouderos and Amy Marcus for instance. (Some might include JDJ and Hillary Johnson here too; if so ERV has earned her place on that list.)

    So ERV (and female readers of ERV) as a woman in science, does this particular dog hunt? Would Judy have spent 4 nights in jail pissing next to tattooed gang members if she was a he?

  71. #71 Poodle Stomper
    November 26, 2011

    “Unfortunately not another scandal, but Mikovits sure is sloppy. From an earier comment by Camarro about the infamous Mikovits presentation with the magic trick:
    Seems like she wanted to make a stronger case for “patient 1178” being positive, as Silverman had reported VP62 contamination in his “patient 1178″ sample….”

    It seems strange that there is only selective renumbering of samples, supposedly for the privacy of the patient, isn’t it? I have to wonder why 2132, 2670, 2832, and 2948 weren’t renumbered as well. It seems odd…

  72. #72 Justicar
    November 26, 2011

    RRM, I left a comment over there, which covers some of the legal issues. http://hysterical-woman.tumblr.com/post/13100686743/judy-mikovitz-jail-lawsuit-wpi#comment-372614988

    I think there is a peaceful, nonviolent way this could have been resolved. In fact, it’s so elegantly simple that I am absolutely flabbergasted that it still needs the occasional mention: don’t steal other people’s shit. If it’s not yours leave it where you found.

    To address your central point, which isn’t that you care if Judy Mikovits, or anyone for that matter, is stealing other people’s stuff, I’ll just use a close analogy.

    Let’s GET REAL HERE. Is the public at risk because Bernie Madoff decided to go home?

    No. And, as it happens, that’s not why we arrest, charge and prosecute people. We do that for laws which are broken, not the final destination the person who cares so little about not causing harm to other people might have in mind.

    Incidentally, if Annette were secreting herself on a boat to avoid legal process and a warrant issued, you bet your ass she’d be in jail. While being rich might buy one better PR firms and attorneys with more capacity, it is no bulwark against being arrested and jailed – that decision is based on probable cause and probability that the person will appear at all relevant court hearings. People who are on the lam, hiding on boats specifically to avoid legal process are generally poor candidates for trusting to show up to a trial.

    Rich and poor alike.

    What is more is that it is no kind of argument at all, as you’ve made it, to say that because one person got away with committing x number of crimes, Judy Mikovits therefore should be permitted to commit them all with impunity. Not even if she’s for really real your most favoritist person ever. Or, if you think otherwise, stop with the all the hype and write:

    Judy Mikovits is so important to me that the government should give her permission to violate whatever laws she’d like, and my fellow citizens should just accept that because I like her enough, she’s legally excused from any liability for anything she does. Even if it hurts you or people you love. It’s that important that my hobbyhorse get special treatment.

    Batshit Crazy And Proud.

    But you haven’t the courage to even be plain about what you want.

  73. #73 Stella
    November 26, 2011

    Who is Gerwyn exactly? (V99 is clearly a gullible doofus but what about the puppetmaster?).

  74. #74 MattK
    November 26, 2011

    There is an epic post by journalist David Tuller giving an overview of cfs research (but Mikovits and XMRV get only a passing mention) at virology blog

  75. #75 Poodle Stomper
    November 26, 2011

    Who is Gerwyn exactly? (V99 is clearly a gullible doofus but what about the puppetmaster?).

    All I know is that both of them demonstrate their ignorance repeatedly in the me/cfs forums time and again. Both of them were out and about claiming that the gel images that started the whole investigation by Science looked identical down to the background b/c that’s how western blots turn out when done the same way (even after the gels were admitted to be the same by several people involved in the Lombardi paper). They are both as zealous as Wakefield’s supporters. In short, they’re both idiots who serve as nothing more than humour for those of us in the scientific community.

  76. #76 sprinter
    November 26, 2011

    @147 Tree and @154 Ilk?
    I couldn’t agree with you more. I think ERV should be nominated as the producer/director of the docu-drama of “Going Rouge in Reno” and the TV Reality series “Princess Diaries”. Maybe South Park should create the episode of “Going Rouge in Reno”? Waddaya all Think?….ROFLMAO!

  77. #77 Jules
    November 27, 2011

    WHO is V99? Anyone know?
    She’s a she right? Does she have ME? What are her credentials?
    Tanks in advance 😉 if anyone can shed insight.

  78. #78 got ilk?
    November 27, 2011

    The problem with simply hitting “refresh” on a blog of interest to update the recently added comments is that it’s possible to miss a new post for a few days.

    To intentionally mix metaphors, someone sitting at the bottom of a rabbit hole seems to be acting like the pot calling the kettle black. “The community is so fractious and reactive that no course of action I could take or not take could possibly leave me without disappointed, critical people.” Huh. Really? Wonder who helped rev up the factious and reactive element of the “community”? An anonymous poster called the post’s author the “pied piper” of these elements — how perfectly apt.

    Bit of a let down that she says she won’t blog again about WPI. However, I predict she’ll change her mind about this as she has so many other things. Possible she won’t admit to changing her mind until after she’s posted more blogs about the off-limit subject, since hindsight seems to be her forte.

  79. #79 Anonymouse
    November 27, 2011

    V99 has M.E. She is a she, lives in England. I don’t believe she has any formal education in science. Attends the University of Wales and is taught by its only teacher — Professor Gerwyn.

  80. #80 popi
    November 27, 2011

    Trine should really make the effort to figure out who V99 and Gerwyn are and interview them. WE WANT to see the faces here.

  81. #81 Peplexed
    November 27, 2011


    The same University of Wales that was recently shut down for offering fraudulent degrees? It all begins to make sense…

  82. #82 Jules
    November 28, 2011

    Steamrolla Kennedy’s new forum; People With ME.
    They’re only letting people join whose viewpoint doesn’t conflict with the University of Wales.
    Evidently they’ve decided AWOL, Flo and Justin Reilly are NOT sheep-like enough to be offered an invite yet.

  83. #83 ERV
    November 28, 2011

    got ilk?–

    Of course, the gender of the perp has nothing to do with anything. As you pointed out, many of the people annoyed with Mikovits are female. Furthermore, many of The Big Dogs in virology, especially retrovirology, are female.

    But lets pretend the negative attention Mikovits has received is not her fault AT ALL, but is because we are all SEXIST (I am a well known gender traitor, after all). A completely, unquestionably sexist math professor telling a female student she is wrong– that 2+2=4, and not her answer of 857– his sexism does not magically make 2+2=857.

    Likewise even if 100% of the attacks on Judy were initially founded on sexism, that does not magically make XMRV a real human pathogen.

    So fine, those people can baaaaaw sexism all they want. But even if that were true, it has no impact on Judys science, which indicates ‘XMRV–>CFS’ is all the result of contamination and deception (or just deception, depending on how the samples were ‘contaminated’).

  84. #84 Poodle Stomper
    November 28, 2011

    Looks like a judge will be deciding on the 19th of next month whether Judy will stand trial. Apparently her husband states that Judy and WPI are trying to work out the issue out of court.


  85. #85 RRM
    November 28, 2011

    Although there are certainly some fishy things about all of this, there is one thing that keeps me from thinking that is was maybe some kind of deliberate deception from the start:

    I think it would be very easy to “fake” BWG results in your favor if you wanted to.

    The fact that Mikovits(/Ruscetti) didn’t, still implies to me that they thought they really had (a) working assay(s), although you must have really been lying to yourselves if you find out you don’t after two years).

  86. #86 MattK
    November 28, 2011

    I thought the BWG samples were blinded before being sent to the labs to prevent just such a thing.

  87. #87 RRM
    November 28, 2011

    Yet, the 10 XMRV+ persons were self-selected by the WPI. Blood from the five positive Lo patients had also been in the WPI lab before the BWG study.

    It should have been easy to manufacture “great” results if you don’t have any moral scruples, although now that you’re asking I’m becoming a bit hesitant to explain how I’d do it… 😉

  88. #88 Perplexed
    November 28, 2011

    Just as criminal trials are often portrayed as a choice between “mad or bad” the scientific one may come down to “incompetent or fraudulent”. Their inability to identify the tubes containing plasmid DNA in the BWG may be their strongest defense against “fraudulent”. Although, as you say, to still be in denial after 2 years goes beyond the usual boundaries of wishful thinking – they were lying to the world, if that included lying to themselves it doesn’t reduce the damage done.
    Hopefully it will be career ending. There plenty of honest and competent scientists who get squeezed out of research careers through lack of funding/high impact papers, Mikovits has had more chances than most and I can’t see why she should be offered another one.

  89. #89 Poodle Stomper
    November 28, 2011

    Although there are certainly some fishy things about all of this, there is one thing that keeps me from thinking that is was maybe some kind of deliberate deception from the start:

    I think it would be very easy to “fake” BWG results in your favor if you wanted to.

    The fact that Mikovits(/Ruscetti) didn’t, still implies to me that they thought they really had (a) working assay(s), although you must have really been lying to yourselves if you find out you don’t after two years).

    Or, the person doing the “contaminating” realized that by spiking samples, they’d make it too obvious what was going on. Either way, I don’t know for sure what was going on there but I do hope it all comes to light and the notebooks may have the answers…or not. =P

  90. #90 Poodle Stomper
    November 28, 2011

    According to here: http://www.rgj.com/article/20111128/NEWS/111280325/Missing-notebooks-returned-Reno-chronic-disease-lab

    “Whittemore said the civil suit against Mikovits could be dropped once the institute is satisfied all the materials have been returned, but the criminal investigation into the alleged theft of the notebooks and data will run its course.”

    So now we know why they were returned…

  91. #91 Stella
    November 29, 2011

    Returned is one thing – how are they going to verify that they haven’t been altered in any way?

    Does anyone know if Science had seen what it needed to before this stuff went missing?

  92. #92 Jack
    November 29, 2011

    @188 I thought this interesting too:

    ‘”All this has been pretty dramatic, but this sort of (dispute among scientists) is very rare,” Whittemore said. “We are moving forward with our research and there’s no less of a commitment from the federal government to fund it.”‘

    Who’s going to be continuing this research then? Lombardi? I guess it must be as wasn’t he appointed in Knickerfits’ stead?

    @189 In that same piece Annette is quoted as saying that they are checking the contents of the notebooks to see all is well. Of course it doesn’t prevent them having been copied, does it?

    I know the court order prevented alteration but copying doesn’t come under that remit does it? And anyway, there was more missing that notebooks if I recall – fashdrives too wasn’t there?

    Here’s what I don’t understand… Property has been returned (presumably intact) which was all that WPI asked for prior to being forced into pursuing the ‘theft’ allegation.

    And yet, Max is the one who technically did the thieving. Alright his defence might well be that ‘Boss lady told me to do it’ but it is he who has ‘fessed up to the act and not – as we understand it – Knickerfits.

    And what could they possibly be in ‘negotiations’ about? Intellectual Property Ownership rights? The dismissal?

    As it said in the article, the criminal case will now run its’ course according to the Judge and is effectively outside the influence of Annette – although the ‘fact’ that the property has been returned will no doubt affect matters I suppose.

    And the NIH and ‘Defense’ grants? They still are happy to remain with WPI? Why? Do they have anything to do with dodgy retroviruses? I am thinking they can’t but they probably do…

  93. #93 In Vitro Infidelium
    November 29, 2011

    @Jack #190

    Who’s going to be continuing this research then? Lombardi? I guess it must be as wasn’t he appointed in Knickerfits’ stead?

    Mikovits became “Director of Translational Research” at WPI back in March 2011 and Lombardi was appointed “Director of Basic Research” http://www.wpinstitute.org/news/docs/DirTransRes.pdf

    Exactly what Mikovits was going to ‘translate’ given that there was no evidence of any disease causing agency or process in any of WPI’s list of ‘diseases Annette Whittemore thinks are interesting’, er sorry I mean ‘neuroimmune disease’, was never defined. And how ‘basic’ research was somehow distinct from any other research also seems to have remained opaque – anyway Mikovits clearly felt she remained to dog (note the appropriate gender nominative has been left out to avoid any implication of sexism)and was somehow the owner of all research at the WPI. Given the lack of breadth in Lombardi’s research career, Mikovits might well have felt she was the senior player, although it’ll be interesting to see whether Lombardi was getting pay parity with Mikovits, if so the WPI was shelling out over $350,000 a year for two directors of research who between them were supervising a staff apparently ofno more than four or five. And Lombardi was sharing his time between WPI and VIPdx.

  94. #94 Jack
    November 29, 2011

    Thanks IVI.

    I also noticed later that the charges related in addition to possession:

    ‘The University of Nevada, Reno police issued an arrest warrant listing two felony charges: possession of stolen property and unlawful taking of computer data, equipment, supplies or other computer related property.’


    I still don’t understand the arrest as a ‘fugitive’ though. And who exactly had the property or indeed who returned said property…

    Right, well I did pick up on this: http://okeefe-lab.blogspot.com/2011/11/so-lets-get-this-straight-cfs-patients.html?spref=tw

    It seems to me (non-scientist) that such a thing will be used – indeed welcomed – by those in pursuit of the ‘HGRV-regardless theories’ despite there being nothing substantive to go on i.e. no actual human gamma retrovirus.

    I think Dr D-J was again promoting the idea that a retorviral cause was the only thing that fit or somesuch notion recently; but I don’t get it.

    I mean isn’t it like forcing a sqaure shape through a round hole regardless? Surely to goodness you need some proof and ‘XMRV’ it weren’t – as also acknowledged finally by Dr D-J:

    ‘Why does it piss you off so much? What if I’m right? Why does no one want to consider it, even if Judy Mikovits’ data is all wrong? What is the resistance?…’

    Well Miller seems to agree Jamie at least to the possibility. I must read that paper he published.

    She continued:

    ‘What other class of pathogen fits? It wasn’t XMRV, so we should stop looking? Your comment was of the “your dumb” variety. Maybe you would like to tell me why. What’s wrong with what I’ve said? Other than that Judy Mikovits has thus far failed to prove it. There’s been an awful lot of smoke to be so sure there is no fire.’


    The thing is, it doesn’t have to be ‘a’ pathogen does it? My whole beef with ‘XMRV’ was that it couldn’t explain everything and we never did get anywhere near proving it caused anything.

    And because of that the ‘debates’ began in the ‘community’ about the validity of each person’s diagnosis not to mention their qualification as a genuine sufferer.

    It didn’t matter too much if you didn’t understand the science, so long as you believed in those promoting it and were prepared to support them regardless of what they said.

    Then when the ‘XMRV’ started to crumble, and fell apart, to remain a supporter and bona-fide sufferer, you have to now believe in the notion that maybe it wasn’t ‘XMRV’ but it sure as hell is some sort of retrovirus, and that anything else that is happening is a direct result of ‘it’.

    So any developments that point to say, an auto-immune problem, are not worth supporting because without targeting the ‘retroviral cause’ they are too ‘upstream’ and somehow unworthy of notice!

  95. #95 Mu
    November 29, 2011

    The reason she was arrested on a fugitive warrant was that she hadn’t done anything wrong in CA. The state charges from Nevada and the warrant issued for them don’t matter for the CA courts per se, but crossing state lines to avoid prosecution in another state makes you a fugitive, and CA could arrest her for that. As for Max, there’s no hurry for the DA to indict and get all kinds of clocks ticking. He’ll probably plea bargain to a misdemeanor unlawful taking or similar with probation; if he has no priors he might get lucky and get it off the records by some diversion program (IANAL).

  96. #97 popi
    November 29, 2011

    I think the most impressive comment from Dr. D-J is the following:

    “Our informal survey is turning out to be worthy of a formal study, with controls. It shows the association between CFS and autism in offspring and siblings, as well as the increased incidence of the disease in partners, thus strongly suggesting an infectious etiology.”

    Here we go Wakefield, wait for us!


  97. #98 Jon H
    November 29, 2011

    This whole thing would be perfect for Reno 911.

    An ex-bartender/ex-MLM vitamin saleslady, doing sketchy “research” for a rich guy’s institute, who goes on the run?

    Officer Dangle could go undercover at the lab in his tiny shorts. Nick Swardson could be the roller skating guy, in the Max role.

  98. #99 ERV
    November 29, 2011

    Heh. WPI is not dropping their civil suit (apparently there was some rumor that cause they got their stuff back, they would forget about it). LINKY!

    WPI President Annette Whittemore today issued a statement that said its civil case will continue. “The damage to the Whittemore Peterson Institute is substantial and recent news coverage indicating that WPI may dismiss its civil case against Dr. Judy Mikovits is incorrect,” Whittemore’s statement said.

  99. #100 Justicar
    November 29, 2011

    *continues munching popcorn*

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