Family Guy, S07E02 ‘I Dream of Jesus’:

Peter: Brian, can I see that paper for a sec?

(Brian gives Peter the paper. Peter peruses the paper.)

Peter: Huh… that’s odd… I thought that would big news.

Brian: You thought what would be big news?

Peter: Well there seems to be an absence of a certain ornithological piece: a headline regarding mass awareness of a certain avian variety.

Brian: What are you talking about?

Peter: Oh have you not heard? It was my understanding that everyone had heard…

Brian: Heard what?

Stewie: Brian Don’t!

Peter: OH WELL THE BIRD, BIRD, BIRD, BIRD BIRD IS THE WORD. OH WELL THE BIRD, BIRD, BIRD, BIRD BIRD IS THE WORD. OH WELL THE BIRD, BIRD, BIRD, BIRD BIRD IS THE WORD. OH WELL THE BIRD, BIRD, BIRD, BIRD BIRD IS THE WORD. BRIAN DON’T YOU KNOW ABOUT THE BIRD? WELL PETER IS GOING TO TELL YOU ABOUT THE BIRD. OH WELL THE BIRD, BIRD, BIRD, BIRD BIRD IS THE WORD. OH WELL THE BIRD… SURFINNN BIRD.

Last week the infamous OMFG KILLER FLU WARBLEGARBLE research was finally published.  Science put out a special issue almost all about ‘killer bird flu’, editorials, commentary, and the actual research– and ALL of the articles are freely available to everyone!

The research comes in two parts–

1– What does a Bird Flu need to change to turn into a People Flu?

 Airborne Transmission of Influenza A/H5N1 Virus Between Ferrets

As Ive said before, very simplistically, Bird Flu and People Flu are that way because they like Bird Sugar and People Sugar on Bird and People Proteins.  But occasionally Bird Flu can infect people, and it stops there.  Bird Flu cant infect people, and then turn into a People Flu.  People are a dead-end host for Bird Flu.

But what if it wasnt?

Evolution will find a way…

So, why dont we get one step ahead of evolution?  Evolve it in the lab first?

Thats exactly what these folks did.  Evolved a Bird Flu that could transmit between mammals, in this case, between the small animal model for influenza, ferrets.

They found that regular ol Bird Flu regularly found the exact same ‘answer’ to the ‘problem’ of mammalian transmission.  Five amino acid mutations– four in hemagglutinin (think influenzas Env) and one in basic polymerase 2 (think influenzas Pol).  Thats not really all that much, especially for an RNA virus.

Now, just because this happened in the lab doesnt mean it will happen in nature, or, that it will happen this way in nature.  But having an answer to how Bird Flu could turn into a pandemic, a virus to study that could turn into a pandemic– it will help us be prepared.

We can study a virus that doesnt even exist yet.

We can study antivirals/develop antivirals for a virus that doesnt even exist yet.

We might have a vaccine to a virus that doesnt even exist yet.

I LOVE THE FUTURE!!!!!

A further benefit is that knowing at least an evolutionary pathway Bird Flu can take means labs working with Bird Flu can keep an eye on their cultures to make sure this guy isnt accidentally evolving under their noses (‘noses’, heh).

 

2– What are the odds of this actually happening?

The Potential for Respiratory Droplet–Transmissible A/H5N1 Influenza Virus to Evolve in a Mammalian Host

In this paper, they data-mined a ton of Bird Flu sequences from all around the world and calculated what needed to happen where for a human transmissible virus to evolve (again, just to stress this point, they looked for one answer that was found in the laboratory– evolution could find another answer in nature).

They considered several factors that could increase the odds:

  • “Random mutation” – Viruses mutate.  Things happen. Explore sequence space, and youre going to find something.
  • “Positive selection” – Things happen.  But what if the intermediate steps have a benefit on viral fitness?
  • “Long infection” – Virus can get comfy in its new environment.
  • “Functionally equivalent substitutions” – Some amino acids kinda look/act alike. Wink is the same as a blink to a blind man.
  • “Avian-to-mammal transmission of partially adapted mutants” – We are assuming bird-to-human. What if the bird flu already has three of the necessary mutations on its own, just by chance?
  • “Mammal-to-mammal transmission of partially adapted viruses” – These five mutations might be the ‘best’ (well, good enough, evolutionarily), but what if two mutations can be transmitted between mammals, but less optimally?

And several factors that could decrease the odds:

  • “An effective immune response” – If we can readily neutralize these guys (cross-reactivity of antibodies) then it dont much matter, does it?
  • “Deleterious intermediate substitutions” – Edge of evolution! LOL!  No, for real, sometimes you cant get from A to , evolutionarily.
  • “Order dependence in the acquisition of substitutions” – Making 5 mutations is one thing.  Making 5 mutations in a precise order is something else.

Of course the risks were different for every simulation they ran.  So they came to a few conclusions on how we can better protect ourselves (this paper was a series of lists. I didnt necessarily mind that, but it actually make me lol):

  • “Additional surveillance in higher-risk regions” – We know what to look for.  From previous sequence data, we know which regions are more likely to produce mammal transmissible Bird Flu.
  • “Deep sequencing of avian and other nonhuman virus samples” – The more sequences we have, the more accurate our predictions will be.
  • “Which substitutions, besides the already identified receptor-binding substitutions [...] are capable of producing respiratory droplet–transmissible A/H5N1 viruses” – Again, we have an answer to mammal-to-mammal transmission.  How many different ways are there to fly?  How many different ways are there to see?  How many different ways can this virus evolve to be mammal transmissible?
  • “Within-host fitness and between-host transmissibility” – We need to study this virus more in the lab.

So thats it.  Thats what the big hubub was about.  Really cool research with really cool implications.  I have no friggen clue why the US government freaked out.  And Im not saying that sarcastically.

*shrug*

Comments

  1. #1 buckthetrend
    June 29, 2012

    “We can study a virus that doesnt even exist yet.

    “We can study antivirals/develop antivirals for a virus that doesnt even exist yet.

    We might have a vaccine to a virus that doesnt even exist yet.

    I LOVE THE FUTURE!!!!!” Abbie said!

    Is this bullshit? Considering these genius medicals scientists previous success with predicting SARS, avian flu, swine flu and their failure to even deal with ordinary seasonal flu you must be a total believer to have even written this LOL thread!

    I shit you not, this is making me laugh dangerously! Next you will be telling us you line up every year for a flu shot and it will get pathological.

    You need to put ‘wind up’ and ‘Bullshit’ in the keywords to make it easier to understand how anyone could write such woo.

  2. #2 Hayden
    June 29, 2012

    I believe the proper spelling is WHARRGARBL.

  3. #3 Optimus Primate
    June 29, 2012

    buckthetrend, are you my father-in-law? Seriously? Because your denialism-masquerading-as-skepticism sounds exactly like his own brand of anti-science bullshit.

    How about you take a look at the paragraph you so conveniently ignored right before the excitement you quoted. Since I would imagine reading comprehension isn’t chief among your skill sets, I’ll help you and quote it for you:

    Now, just because this happened in the lab doesnt mean it will happen in nature, or, that it will happen this way in nature. But having an answer to how Bird Flu could turn into a pandemic, a virus to study that could turn into a pandemic– it will help us be prepared.

    Also, key words in the sentences you’re obsessing over: “We can study…” “We might.”

    To quote Carl Saga, “Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were, but without it we go nowhere.” What Abbie’s talking about is even one better than imagination. Evolution can only take so many paths on the road from “non human-to-human-transmission” to “human-to-human-transmission.” They’ve discovered one of those finite paths. They’ve discovered one avenue that works and ruled out a lot that don’t. That’s useful information. Incredibly useful information. Fucking exciting useful information.

    In your lame attempt to discredit pretty much an entire field of study you obviously know fuck-all about, you’re latching onto anything and everything you can find to attack without even trying to comprehend the entire argument.

    I take back what I said about your possibly being my father-in-law. At least he reads an entire argument before spectacularly misrepresenting it. At this point, I’m starting to suspect that you’re a sock puppet for PZ Myers.

  4. #4 Optimus Primate
    June 29, 2012

    Also:

    Next you will be telling us you line up every year for a flu shot and it will get pathological.

    Could you rephrase that in the form of a coherent sentence? What the fuck are you even trying to say there?

  5. #5 buckthetrend
    June 29, 2012

    Primas stove ranted “They’ve discovered one of those finite paths. They’ve discovered one avenue that works and ruled out a lot that don’t. That’s useful information. Incredibly useful information. Fucking exciting useful information.”

    Imagination is all they have, putting guys like this in control of the shit is beyond maddness of the highest order.

    Optimum, what I know not but savy it is not, how many times do these vaccine generators have to score zero before you become a non believer.

    If I was your father in law I would be very worried and very afraid.

    So do you line up like a turkey for your flu shot every year or is it one rule for one and septics hold back?

  6. #6 buckthetrend
    June 29, 2012

    Hayden, I believe the proper spellng is Hymen.

    If this is science you should get the Marxx brothers to sell it, you are doing a great job of putting me off!

  7. #7 Optimus Primate
    June 29, 2012

    Oh, for fuck’s sake. You’re one of those people. I’m sorry I assumed you were arguing in good faith and I apologize to PZ for the insult.

    And I don’t know h

  8. #8 Optimus Primate
    June 29, 2012

    Fucking iPhones and fucking massive front paws. I meant to continue: I don’t know how turkeys line up, but yes, I get a flu shot every year. Best $15 I spend most years. The one year I didn’t get the shot, I came back from CES with the flu and spent the better part of $1000 fighting it.

  9. #9 Alabaster
    New Zealand
    June 29, 2012

    WOW, buckthetrend, I have rarely seen so many sentences in one post that make no sense whatsoever. Well done! Also, perhaps you should sub edit your own posts before correcting the spelling of others…..

  10. #10 Alabaster
    June 29, 2012

    Also:

    OOH MA MAO MAO,
    MA MA OOH MAU MAU
    MA MA MA
    OOH MA MAU MAU

  11. #11 buckthetrend
    June 30, 2012

    Wow, lot of sore heads here who have obviously started showing signs of mercury accumilation, primas you look about 50 in your photo, all that aluminium, formaldahyde and cellular jet trash.

    I feel somewhat like I have gone into the Tabernacle and shouted ‘god is dead’. Sorry to offend your believe system stovey, but it’s quite easy really.

  12. #12 spence
    June 30, 2012

    Oh dear. Another anti-vaxxer whose entire understanding of toxicology amounts to “OMFG!!! MERCURY!!1!!elebenty”. It’s just a shame you can’t accumulate brains, buckthetrend.

    As for the US gov thing, it always was the stupidest line going. From what I understood, someone got the idea that this would be used by another state (y’know, one of the evil ones – cough) or a terrorist as a biological weapon. It didn’t occur to them that any weapon worth worrying about has to have some ability to target its effects. But flu has no targeting ability. It would just spread through the worldwide population killing a similar proportion of people on both sides. Worst weapon evah.

    So now we know that this information is completely useless as a weapon to states or terrorists, that only leaves one possibility – the mad scientist who has built a facility the depths of a volcanic island in the middle of the ocean. That must have been what they were worried about. Happens all the time y’know.

  13. #13 mo (one of Abbies's elk)
    June 30, 2012

    Hear this sound?

    That’s 1 million terrorists not giving a shit. ;)))

  14. #14 Optimus Primate
    June 30, 2012

    No, buckthetrend, more like you walked into a room full of adults and shouted “POTATO CATS RUNNING UP THE TOILET PAPER! POOP BOOGERS! TEEHEE! I WIN!1!”

    Srsly, since when is “you look about 50″ supposed to be an insult?

  15. #15 Jerry
    June 30, 2012

    It’s always funny what kind of stupid poop comes out of anti-vaxxer’s mouth. Buckthetrend, don’t tell me you’re a creatard too.

  16. #16 dustbubble
    The House of Fun
    June 30, 2012

    OddlyExcitablePerson squawked “ .. the shit is beyond maddness ..&#8221
    .and that, chum, is
    where you are wrong.
    ‘Tain’t possible.

  17. #17 dustbubble
    Hotel California
    June 30, 2012

    Bum! Forgot a semi-colon and a superlflouououous linebreak.

    Abbie, could you pretty-please beg PeepeeZus to exercise his enormous clout with the NatGeo overlords, and get us a preview feature??
    Before he’s had you eliminated, of course .. it’s not like you didn’t have it coming.

  18. #18 buckthetrend
    July 1, 2012

    Well boys, seems like you all had a flu shot, considering the largest ever review of this woo showed it was as useful as chicken shit for flu prevention this pro vaxx science is pretty weird.

    So we know you can’t catch flu, we know all vaccines so far are useless and still the pro vaxxers think they are on to something. I shit you not this is some heavy belief system.

    What so some dumb terrorist is going to try and give us all flu? That’s already been done by the national cold and flu unit using the London Underground, result ZERO.

    I love the idea that all you septics are shitting it that the next germ pandemic is gonna get ya, thing is I don’t know anyone who had a flu shot and don’t know anyone who died from Scamdemic Poo either, I think the CDC and NIH are the terrorists, but only you guys crapped it, brilliant.

    “Abbie, could you pretty-please beg PeepeeZus to exercise his enormous clout with the NatGeo overlords, and get us a preview feature??” mubblepup said

    You get excited over this bollocks, are you a computer game nerd or what!

    Vaccination is dead!

    LOL

  19. #19 Optimus Primate
    July 1, 2012

    buckthetrend

    8:34 am
    Well boys, seems like you all had a flu shot, considering the largest ever review of this woo showed it was as useful as chicken shit for flu prevention this pro vaxx science is pretty weird.

    which review are you referring to, exactly? The one from The Lancet published last year? As the young’uns say these days, “[Citation needed].”

    I just don’t want to waste my time correcting your gross misrepresentation of the results if you’re referring to a different review.

  20. #20 buckthetrend
    July 1, 2012

    Your the ass, you look it up. When the DOH in the UK was contacted about this study they admitted flu jab efficacy was non existant but settled with typical vaxx believer woo ” We are continuing with the programme as it makes old people feel more confident”

    Typical medical science, no relation to facts, raw data turned upside down and back on your heads.

    You really have to change that photo Primate, you do not look well. With all that mercury you must qualify for a toxic waste site and therefore qualify for immediate disposal!

    At least they didn’t rename it, lurgy injection 5.

    Vaccination is dead.

  21. #21 Optimus Primate
    July 1, 2012

    Okay, let me try this another way: you cited a review. You seem to think that review supports your position. Yet you give none of the details of said review. So how am I supposed to understand your position? Thus far, it looks like you don’t actually have one aside from, “NUH UH!”

    If you want to have a discussion about it, cite the review. If you want me to “look it up,” give me more to work with.

    If you can’t take the time to (or simply can’t) do that, then why should I waste my time acknowledging you at all?

  22. #22 spence
    July 1, 2012

    So we know you can’t catch flu

    It’s a teensy bit more complex than that, buckthetrend. I suggest you watch some of Abbie’s videos explaining how vaccines work.

    we know all vaccines so far are useless

    *All* vaccines are useless? So, it wasn’t the smallpox vaccine that eradicated smallpox then?

    Buckthetrend, every time you make a statement that is absolute that cannot possible be absolute you highlight your ignorance on the subject. In fact these statements are so wrong-headed that it seems like you’re being a troll.

    As Optimus correctly notes, in critical thinking, if *you* make a specific claim then the onus is on *you* to provide the evidence. It is not the responsibility of others to do your leg work for you. Bad form in a debate.

    I love the idea that all you septics are shitting it that the next germ pandemic is gonna get ya

    You might love the idea, but it exists only in your head. As rationalists we know we cannot cure all disease, and that at some point we’re all gonna die. That’s life as it stands at the moment and that is not likely to change soon. But we also know we can take measured steps to substantially reduce the burden of disease, including both preventative, curative and palliative measures. Vaccines are one of our most powerful preventative tools (perhaps after basic hygiene).

    That is what I think, and I suspect what most rationalists think; you don’t need to be “shitting it” about disease to take sensible steps to minimise the risk and burden of disease, any more than you need to be “shitting it” to look both ways before crossing the road. It is just a sensible thing to do.

  23. #23 buckthetrend
    July 1, 2012

    Hi Spence” “So we know you can’t catch flu”"
    It’s a teensy bit more complex than that, buckthetrend. I suggest you watch some of Abbie’s videos explaining how vaccines work.”

    Uhh, that’s the kind of vaxx woo I mean, it is well known you can’t catch flu and you tell me in order to study this subject I need to watch a video about how vaccines work!

    Optimus, you are either incapable of typing ‘flu vaccines don’t work, or are useless or all the common unsubstantiated EBM claims like halves winter deaths, or you are taking the piss. Or maybe you just can’t engage with a debate, either way it’s not looking too promising for you.

    Oh remember to press ‘go’ on your computer not your X box.

    “Vaccines are one of our most powerful preventative tools” Its fascinating that I have found a small corner of bloggland that still believes this utter mythology. All the ‘evidence’ you cite is written by the people who either make them, sell them, or inject them into kids, for a living or use ‘donations’ for mass programmes as a tax scam.

    If this was homeopath land you would be gleefully telling us that the evidence they are writing about is written by them and therefor null and void.

  24. #24 Niche Geek
    July 1, 2012

    Buckthetrend,

    “…it is well known you can’t catch flu…” um… so what did all those people die of in 1918? Are you doubting the existence of the microorganism entirely?

  25. #25 Candy
    July 1, 2012

    As a regular reader at Insolence, I’ve seen some dumb trolls, but buckthetrend is a spectacular example of its kind. What a maroon!

  26. #26 buckthetrend
    July 1, 2012

    ” um… so what did all those people die of in 1918?” Niche geek.

    Oh blimey, another milkmaid mythologist at work. You guys are really at the bottome of the pilo.

    Next you will be telling us they dug up permafrosted corpses and injected the extract, after recreating virus Jurassic park style, into monkeys brains and guess what they died. Thing is no control, you can inject childs spit into an adult brain and kill someone!

    Back to the myth. Those who died were primarily men aged 15 to 34, funnily enough old people and the young didn’t with regard to the usual death demographic the graph was W shaped. Brilliant, modern medical scientists like to tell us it was because they were the fittest and the vrius turned their immune systems in on them.

    Practical reality tells us that exhausted troops returning and fighting on the Somme etc were the main victims and the ‘virus’ did not spread to the weakest as is commonly taught to medical interms as part of their L Ron Hubbard initiation into flu woo.

    Check out the RCT on prisoners that was unable to ‘infect’ anyone sprayed with ‘extracts’ from dead and dying flu victims, exactly the same failure rate as the national cold and flu uniit that spent 40 years failing to confirm the transmission theory of fluolgists.

    Well we know that anyway, swine flu wackaloon.

    It matters not to me whether you have enough enquiry to read up on this for yourself but the post office delivery boys of the time noticed that people who received homeopathic remedies survived, I am not advocating H either, and those who got aspirin died.

    They were unable to identify any organism at the time, I don’t doubt the existence of germs or virus but the idea that we can catch them still has no EBM.

    Hi Candy, you are a regular reader of this blog! That’s gotta be the funniest thing I’ve read today, someone actually admitting they read it! Tell us about your other hobbies Candy I can’t wait for it.

  27. #27 Niche Geek
    July 1, 2012

    So you believe that the organisms exist, but don’t believe that they can infect humans. That would be denial of germ theory, which is pretty well established at this point. I’m curious – what do you think causes those diseases that science and medicine think are viral and bacterial?

  28. #28 Fuckthetrend
    July 1, 2012

    Hey, asshole, he asked you for a citation. Kindly provide one, or stfu. Fucking moron.

  29. #29 Narad
    July 1, 2012

    I love the idea that all you septics are shitting it that the next germ pandemic is gonna get ya, thing is I don’t know anyone who had a flu shot and don’t know anyone who died from Scamdemic Poo either

    I do so love the devastating coinages of those who simultaneously demonstrate a rather loose grasp on how to turn the Mother Tongue into letters in the first place.

  30. #30 buckthetrend
    July 2, 2012

    NIche, if 40 years of study by the national cold and flu unit connected with Porton Down was unable to confirm the transmission theory of flu then you tell me what you know buddy. Germ theory is that, a theory, when did it graduate to germ fact?

    All those years of study unable to infect more than 11% in controlled lab settings, spraying flu and cold virus up the noses of volunteers! If that is not a failed believe system I don’t know what is. Fancy still trying to tell us the earth is flat, I think some of you need to get out of the septic tank and start looking about a bit.

    What, is it placebo is 20%, so the belief system didn’t even make that, I suppose if all the tv’s and doctors are telling us to be scared of the germies then that’s a powerful talisman.

    Most of the world ignored the pandemic flu scams of recent years and the predicted body stack up never happened.

    I suppose one can’t really expect more from a bunch of National Geograhic navel gazers.

  31. #31 buckthetrend
    July 2, 2012

    “The one year I didn’t get the shot, I came back from CES with the flu and spent the better part of $1000 fighting it.” Optimus dorkus.

    Nice story but what the hell did you do to waste $1000 dollars?

  32. #32 buckthetrend
    July 2, 2012

    http://www.3news.co.nz/Living-Proof/tabid/371/articleID/171328/Default.aspx?ArticleID=17132

    Hey stovebut too much belief in medical doctors and woo germ science is your problm, should have got some vitamin C, no wonder they want to ban it!

  33. #33 buckthetrend
    July 2, 2012

    Just notice noble lord Orac has started a woo thread on the terrible dangers of supplements, he has a total fear of my posts so thought as this thread is lunging towards the idea that germs might not be all it’s about here it is:

    Your moderation is awaiting comment!

    “There is little or no evidence that supplements prevent cancer, for example, and that there is no evidence that they prolong life.” The noble Orac hath given the wordith.

    Well you can’t be reading too much Orac, the dept of health in Scotland UK puts the cancer and MS epidemic there down to vitamin D deficiency.

    http://www.3news.co.nz/Living-Proof/tabid/371/articleID/171328/Default.aspx?ArticleID=171328

    There is absolutely loads of real evidence of the value of nutrition beating disease, but precious little reported in that peer rev stuff, you know the ones who only write about themselves and claim some kind of self appointed authority.

    You wanna see the filth in the average vaccine and then it gets real.

    On the other hand where are the bodies Orac from this terrible epidemic of vitamin death?

  34. #34 john C. Welch
    July 2, 2012

    Guys, guys.

    Having just went through this with one of bucktrend’s OMG OBAMACARE nutters, the way you handle him is simple.

    He made specific claims. Don’t engage with him until he provides the links to the data that supports his claims. Everything else is him distracting you from the fact that HE hasn’t provided the links for HIS claims, which is HIS job, not anyone else’s.

    So again Bucktrend: links to legitimate sources, or STFU.

  35. #35 john C. Welch
    July 2, 2012

    Snerk. A video about a “miracle” from a news program.

    That’s your link to scientific data.

    Bra-vo.

  36. #36 harold
    July 2, 2012

    so what did all those people die of in 1918?

    A fair number of them may have died directly of sequelae of influenza, but many died of superimposed bacterial infections.

    That is semi-good news in the sense that those particular types of infections can now usually be treated with antibiotics, especially in previously healthy, relatively young adults.

    The bad news is that in a severe pandemic supplies of beds, antibiotics, equipment, and so on could be taxed. Also, although antibiotic resistance has a general statistical tendency to be associated with reduced virulence or infectivity, we currently manage bacterial infection outbreaks as much with public health measures as with direct treatment of victims, so that could play a role if a synergy between the virus and super-infecting bacteria emerged.

    Although literally nearly everything the insane troll is saying is wrong, it is certainly true that a large population of closely packed, suboptimally nourished, combat fatigued military members with less than ideal access to good hygiene in many cases, played a role in the outbreak of the pandemic. In fact such conditions have predisposed to infectious outbreaks throughout human history.

  37. #37 buckthetrend
    July 2, 2012

    One in the eye for Harold.

    So the guy in hospital made it all up using costumes and film set from some horror movie! The total denial or total absence of scientific enquiry amuses me beyond!

    Harry old boy, you are totally missing the fact that the old and young didn’t die, making up silly stories about sequelae, may if but not, where’s your reference for these stories.

    In modern times the CDC, the NIH and Bill and melinda the celebrity cheque book, have all been proven completely wrong about flu so trying to cite shit about shit is quite difficult.

    Welchy, we can smell the fear in your font. Ask the Orac why he keeps removing references to data and then claiming that there is none?

    I love being called insane on this site, considering most of you are the same person that’s quite a compliment.

    The problem with the links to EBM that are posted here is that they are written by people who make up their own adgenda on what is truth.

    Flu is a beautiful example, and when Merck gets their arse blown off for falsifying efficacy data for its mumps vaccine maybe some of you might puke on your pubmed.

    Good job there are enough sane people left to totally ignore you. Can any of you put up a shelf or fix a door, I think not.

  38. #38 harold
    July 2, 2012

    buckthetrend –

    Although I am guilty of having used an insulting term above, I’d be delighted to engage in a civil exchange of ideas going forward.

    Harry old boy, you are totally missing the fact that the old and young didn’t die, making up silly stories about sequelae, may if but not, where’s your reference for these stories.

    References documenting that there was an influenza pandemic in 1918, that influenza is caused by the influenza virus, that bacterial infections are caused by bacteria, that some bacterial infections are more likely in the context of influenza, are widely available. Please note that no-one is denying the value of nutrition, nor the fact that many young adults died in the 1918 pandemic (although very old people and young children did also die).

    However, before I start, I think it would make sense for you to explain your point of view. The fewer insults and unfounded accusations you use, the more clear your writing will be.

    1) Was there an incidence of excess morbidity and mortality in 1918?

    2) What is your explanation for it, and how do you account for the evidence that implicates an influenza pandemic?

    3) Do you agree that viruses can cause disease in humans and other organisms? If not, why not?

    4) Do you agree that bacteria can cause disease in humans and other organisms? If not, why not?

    5) Why do you accept the modern scientific identification of vitamin C, but deny other equally supported scientific findings?

    6) Of course, formal training does not make people right all the time, and lack of formal training does not preclude a valid opinion. Nevertheless, the Dunning-Kruger effect , “a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect, is sadly much more common than true autodidact status. Therefore, it may be relevant if you could describe the extent of your academic training in biology, microbiology, immunology, nutrition, medicine, pathology, or any other fields relative to the discussion.

    7) Since it is very well established that the influenza virus causes influenza, etc, the onus is on you to provide strong references showing that microbes do not cause infectious disease, and explaining what does cause such disease instead, why the evidence for microbes seems so compelling yet is mistaken, and why sanitation, hygiene, antibiotics, and yes vaccines, seem to be effective, if microbes do not cause disease. Do you have any such references?

    8) Do you sell any products for a profit, based on poorly documented health or medical claims?

    9) Have you ever been told that you suffer from underlying psychological issues that might distort your perception of fields related to the discussion here?

  39. #39 harold
    July 2, 2012

    It seems that the number eight, “8″ followed by a “)”, is transformed into a smiley face wearing Ray-Ban style sunglasses automatically.

    That should be point number “eight’”, “8″, followed by a “)”, not “8)”

  40. #40 buckthetrend
    July 2, 2012

    “that influenza is caused by the influenza virus, that bacterial infections are caused by bacteria, that some bacterial infections are more likely in the context of influenza, are widely available.” Haroldoid 1

    Well lets start here. Most pathogens can be isolated on most people, but they don’t cause infections, in fact path labs get fed up with someone coming in with a pusy area and the swab showing up strep. We know that 40 years of study by the British National cold and flu unit failed to prove the contagen theory of flu and the last few flu events from SARS, avian swine turned out to be a total con.

    I have no idea what the role of these organisms have to do with getting ill and I am sure that the CDC NIH has no idea either. They do seem to keep telling us that the battle against bacteria is being lost and soon there will be no antibiotics, in a way they have made the problem worse.

    Why don’t they study people who have these bugs but are not ill, it’s a no brainer.

    That answers 1 to 4, no 5 looks like a typo. What are the mystery findings that I don’t agree with?

    Unfortunately Wikipedia has become a victim of its own success and is now dominated by anti science medics so I wouldn’t take any definitions posted there very seriously at all.

    7. “Since it is very well established that the influenza virus causes influenza” this statement is a typical septic medical factoid. 40 years of study showed that only 11% of people who had a flu virus sprayed up their nose got the flu, that is not a stat. Perhaps you could tell us why you keep repeating this mantra of cause and effect when there is no evidence it is true, the contrary in fact.

    How many flu jabs have you submitted to, we can then calculate the levels of toxic waste/emotional investment that may be biasing your belief system towards germ theories and other wackaloon ideas.

    9) Your tactic is out of date Harry, your method is an old septic method, pebblonian, chagglarion and the people are seeing through it. Has it ever occured to you that most people now regard ‘formally trained’ people as monkies in a zoo, why on earth do you think otherwise?

    ‘Formally trained’ people have brought us the banking crisis, GMO disasters, flu scams and wars we don’t need in countries that have nothing but oil. Why on earth should your teddy bear theories mean any more?

    I can’t find a symbol with a knob on it but take it from me sir!

  41. #41 Peterpan
    Space
    July 2, 2012

    I can’t believe people get paid for writing up and researching this bollocks for complete non events.

  42. #42 harold
    July 2, 2012

    buckthetrend –

    I see that you made your best effort to answer the questions.

    I don’t mean to be rude, but I will demonstrate the inconsistent nature of your claims.

    Most pathogens can be isolated on most people, but they don’t cause infections, in fact path labs get fed up with someone coming in with a pusy area and the swab showing up strep.

    I can tell that you’re tragically serious, because a parody poster would be consistent, and deny that bacteria can be cultured or identified.

    You take for granted the basic science that has shown, since the days of Koch and Pasteur (etc) the unequivocal connection between microbes and infectious disease.

    Overall, this statement reveals ignorance of what would be taught on day one of a microbiology course. The fact that small amounts of potentially pathogenic bacteria, for example, can and do colonize healthy people, is well known. And many infections are caused by bacteria that are perfectly benign occupants of, say, the GI tract, under other circumstances.

    For the sake of third party readers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infection#Pathophysiology

    Also, I link only to Wikipedia pages that summarize a topic well and provide a good list of citations for further study, if anyone is interested.

    Again, it’s a bit like the claim about Vitamin C. The existence and chemical structure of vitamin C are known entirely because of the same science that is being denied.

    We know that 40 years of study by the British National cold and flu unit failed to prove the contagen theory of flu and the last few flu events from SARS, avian swine turned out to be a total con.

    Actually, the fact that these diseases are contagious was noted by some long before it was known that they are infectious.

    Your germ theory denial is probably harmless to you, and unlikely to convince anyone else. Unfortunately, it could be dangerous in some circumstances, and the paranoia that results is probably unpleasant. I recommend that you consider all your options.

  43. #43 Peterpan
    July 2, 2012

    Have you ever thought that what is taught on day 1 of a microbiology class could be wrong?

    Overall, this statement reveals ignorance of what would be taught on day one of a microbiology course. The fact that small amounts of potentially pathogenic bacteria, for example, can and do colonize healthy people, is well known. And many infections are caused by bacteria that are perfectly benign occupants of, say, the GI tract, under other circumstances.

  44. #44 buckthetrend
    July 2, 2012

    “I can tell that you’re tragically serious, because a parody poster would be consistent, and deny that bacteria can be cultured or identified.” Harold

    Well that’s scientific, your septic identikit is failing here, I catagorically state that I have no issue with culturing bacteria and have never implied otherwise, it’s their role in disease that’s not clear.

    Koch had no idea what he was doing, his postulates are way out of date and certainly don’t apply to flu, more mystical medieval mythology. To name a disease we have to isolate the germ, then culture it then inject it into whatever and reproduce the same disease, pure Hans Christian Anderson and shame on you for implying it has any value in a scientific setting, postulates FCS.

    Pasteur was a fraud, claimed his work was his own and it certainly was not, also recanted germ theory on his death bed as a pile of woo, shame is a lot of idiots like you had shares in it so we still have to put up with annual flu scares and premenitions of impending pandemics, cheers Harold.

    “And many infections are caused by bacteria that are perfectly benign occupants of, say, the GI tract, under other circumstances.” Harold the one.

    Thing is Harold these medical fucking scientists keep studying the bacteria that may or may not be pathological, they don’t study the occupants, this statement of yours demostrates the ‘thicker than two planks’ kind of medical researchers that we are dealing with, they don’t even know they have no pants on when they are telling us it’s a mystery?

    “Again, it’s a bit like the claim about Vitamin C. The existence and chemical structure of vitamin C are known entirely because of the same science that is being denied.”

    What does this statement mean? It saved lives long before some fucking scientists claimed they invented it!

    “Actually, the fact that these diseases are contagious was noted by some long before it was known that they are infectious. ”

    Every decreasing circles of mist descend, Harold you need to reprogramme your septicomita, it’s not making senze.

    So in between pandemics Harold where do they go?

  45. #45 Peterpan
    July 2, 2012

    Find it yourself you arsehole, its not difficult.

    Hey, asshole, he asked you for a citation. Kindly provide one, or stfu. Fucking moron.

  46. #46 Peterpan
    July 2, 2012

    So in between pandemics Harold where do they go?
    Thats easy they get back on their space ship and hop through a black hole to another dimension, then they return, usually 3 years later with new clothes on just when pharmaceutical shares need a bit of a boost.

  47. #47 StealthBadger
    http://www.stealthbadger.net/
    July 2, 2012

    Germ theory is that, a theory, when did it graduate to germ fact?

    I call Poe’s Law. PLEASE let me call Poe’s Law.

    Anyhow, the interesting thing about the government is that (given how chaotic human beings are), every department of the government plans for EVERYTHING THAT IT CAN, playing out all sorts of disaster scenarios, and only organizations like NASA are rarely surprised (because the variables on a manned space mission are wonderfully few compared to say, the Mississippi River Delta). So what the government tends to come up with is the general conclusion that CHANGE IS BAD. Given what happened after Murdoch started Fox News, I’m not sure I blame them, but they do get overcautious and over-controlling. Let’s just say the system worked this time to shake a much-needed piece of knowledge into the public eye, and hope that it happens more often.

  48. #48 harold
    July 2, 2012

    Peterpan (a most appropriate username) said –

    Have you ever thought that what is taught on day 1 of a microbiology class could be wrong?

    Of course it could, but it’s strongly supported by evidence, and is better than alternate explanations.

    You see, I know both what is taught on day one of a microbiology class, and the claims associated with your juvenile comments. So I can weigh the evidence and rationally choose which is better.

    You know only the claims associated with your juvenile comments. In fact, if confronted with what is taught on day one of any evidence based science course, you’d have to scream and block your ears, because it would make sense, and that would threaten your fragile ego. So you really can’t make a rational comparison.

    My personal advice is that the whole fragile ego inadequately protected by illusory superiority thing doesn’t work out in the long run.

  49. #49 harold
    July 2, 2012

    PLEASE let me call Poe’s Law.

    That’s not my guess, but who knows.

    So in between pandemics Harold where do they go?
    Thats easy they get back on their space ship and hop through a black hole to another dimension, then they return, usually 3 years later with new clothes on just when pharmaceutical shares need a bit of a boost.

    So many logic fails, so little time…

    1) Question appears difficult due to the ignorance and biases of the poser, but is actually not.

    2) Straw man/false dichotomy construction.

    3) Inappropriate tone of rage demonstrates tragic emotional/ego investment in oppositional claims, probably constructed merely for the sake of contradicting widely accepted fact in a “controversial” way.

    4) Any more sockpuppets coming, Peterpan/Buckthetrend?

  50. #50 buckthetrend
    July 2, 2012

    “Of course it could, but it’s strongly supported by evidence, and is better than alternate explanations. ” Haroldoid 2

    Spending your first year cutting up a dead body to find out about health is the start of it. Then ‘learning’ that conditions like arthritis can only be treated with painkillers, or that blood pressure can only be properly treated with medication.

    “I know both what is taught on day one of a microbiology class, and the claims associated with your juvenile comments. ” Haroldoid 3

    Bullshit – now I have settled. You know crocktiddlyshit about an alternative, which is obvious from your lack of engagement. I can’t apologise for you lack of understanding either.

    Anyone who even attempts to argue that flu vaccine has health value based on the clinical evidence and research currently available is very dangerous moron.

    “My personal advice is that the whole fragile ego inadequately protected by illusory superiority thing doesn’t work out in the long run.” Haroldoid 4

    Is this your obituary?

  51. #51 harold
    July 2, 2012

    This is my final comment, which I will make, for the sake of third party readers. I’ve tried to engage in a civil way up until now.

    Spending your first year cutting up a dead body to find out about health is the start of it.

    1) It’s to learn anatomy.

    2) Without the internet, who would know that people like this exist. He doesn’t just deny basic microbiology, he’s against anatomy, too.

    Then ‘learning’ that conditions like arthritis can only be treated with painkillers,

    That isn’t what anyone learns. Your ignorance and rank dishonesty are almost as great as your obnoxiousness. You don’t know what “arthritis” means, by the way.

    or that blood pressure can only be properly treated with medication.

    That isn’t what anyone learns. Your ignorance and rank dishonesty are almost as great as your obnoxiousness.

    “I know both what is taught on day one of a microbiology class, and the claims associated with your juvenile comments. ” Haroldoid 3

    Bullshit – now I have settled. You know crocktiddlyshit about an alternative, which is obvious from your lack of engagement. I can’t apologise for you lack of understanding either.

    Sorry, to the extent that you’ve made any claims, they’re just stupid, babbling nonsense. Every time you open your mouth you exhibit a degree of rage, frustration, stupidity, ignorance, pitifully shallow illusory superiority, and obnoxiousness that is quite incredible.

    Anyone who even attempts to argue that flu vaccine has health value based on the clinical evidence and research currently available is very dangerous moron.

    Although you are certainly a moron, and in your case, that’s one of your better traits, you probably aren’t dangerous, thanks to the fact that you’re so obnoxious that no-one will be persuaded by your inane delusions.

  52. #52 ERV
    July 2, 2012

    This is the weirdest comment thread about influenza, ever.

  53. #53 StealthBadger
    http://www.stealthbadger.net
    July 2, 2012

    This is the weirdest comment thread about influenza, ever.

    It’s certainly entertaining, though.

  54. #54 Optimus Primate
    July 2, 2012

    The fabled Potato Cat also made an appearance. That’s never a bad thing.

  55. #55 Niche Geek
    July 2, 2012

    I want to note that Buck has not yet actually answered my question which I will rephrase: If not microbes, then what is the cause of infectious disease? Arguing that the CCU in the UK was unable to demonstrate how influenza is transmitted (I’d like to see a citation for this because I was unable to find verification online) does not actually answer the question.

  56. #56 buckthetrend
    July 3, 2012

    3 in 32 was the maximum that could be demonstrated to ‘catch the flu’ even with close contact in lab conditions.

    Niche look it up, I can why can’t you, has your computer got a septic filter or Orac ‘moderating’?

    I can’t believe grown people still believe this myth of ‘catching colds’, it’s hysterically funny.

  57. #57 buckthetrend
    July 3, 2012

    So ERV, here is some start wisdom on this thread just to show you that the comments are right on tack. Primus picked this gem out right at the start.

    “Now, just because this happened in the lab doesnt mean it will happen in nature, or, that it will happen this way in nature. But having an answer to how Bird Flu could turn into a pandemic, a virus to study that could turn into a pandemic– it will help us be prepared.” Abbie

    My response was to summerise – we have had loads of this ‘in the lab shit’ from lots of ‘virus experts’ and loads of ‘predictions/preminisions/dream thought’ about where flu is going next, and historically they have all been wrong.

    Primus seems to get all bubbly and excited about this wonderland stuff and almost cums in his pants at the thought of Abbie finding out more!

    Why the fuck is this any different to early cultures thinking that they have to sacrifice fellow humans for the greater good, sun worship or borbal belief? Or looking at porn and imagining its you?

    This does seem like a typical medical science scenario, new bigger sexy invention just as the claims for the ‘old medication’ are coming in.

    Look at Vioxx, 160,000 killed world wide all for pain suppression Harold, nothing wrong with anatomy but your average doctor really only relates to a dead body with regard to how they understand nutrition, emotion and of course the pay check.

    I agree this thread is totally weird, the author hasn’t commented once on the ridicule being poured on her endevours but that is what we have come to expect from medical science, a law unto its own and totally unaccountable for its actions ‘I’m only the bod in the lab’ a meer foot soldier in the wider scheme of things.

    Dare you step out of line like the scientists from Merck who know the Mumps vaccine stats are fraud and prepared to put their livelyhoods on the line for principle.

    Harold I am glad that’s your last comment, trite and self referrential as usual, go back to your slippers, cocoa and national geograhic, with luck there might be some pictures of naked women and you can have a nice time on your own.

  58. #58 spence
    July 3, 2012

    Uhh, that’s the kind of vaxx woo I mean, it is well known you can’t catch flu and you tell me in order to study this subject I need to watch a video about how vaccines work!

    In ANY branch of skepticism you need to understand the arguments before making a claim regarding them.

    Your failure here would be a failure on any topic.

    If this was homeopath land you would be gleefully telling us that the evidence they are writing about is written by them and therefor null and void.

    No, if we were talking about homeopathy I would be referring to the basic textbook physics and chemistry that shows homeopathy cannot work.

    Please try to fail less hard next time.

  59. #59 windy
    July 3, 2012

    What was so bad about the predictions on swine flu? Unless you mean that they were too optimistic?

    http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/06/crazy-swine-flu-killed-15-times-more-people-than-we-thought/259013/

  60. #60 buckthetrend
    July 3, 2012

    Spence, don’t spout septic talk. Skepticism or what is commonly referred to as septic talk is a pseudo science that uses weasle words and gobbledegook to imply it has something to offer as of the scientific method.

    Let me bring this right down and make it very simple:

    In order to study chocolate cake I have to study chocolate cake not bananas.

    If I was studying chinese I would use a chinese dictionary and talk to bi lingual chinese people not frogs.

    Considering the vast majority of people who were diagnosed with swine flu had no swab lab confirmation but usually a teenager on the phone who asked a few simple questions like, got a temperature, not feeling good etc here’s your Tamiflu, most of the claims of diagnosis were anecdotes.

    Considering all the Tamiflu data was lost by Roche post scamdemic any opportunity to do a scientific audit was also lost.

    Windy, if you are seriously even implying that the whole saga was anything more than an elaborate hoax you must be a septic woo believer, and that I believe.

    http://www.smh.com.au/world/only-7-swine-flu-deaths-not-152-says-who-20090429-aml1.html

  61. #61 wow
    July 3, 2012

    Badger, you can’t call Poe.

    A Poe is what the commenter says when their attempt at ridiculing a position is taken by others as serious because that argument has been seen as accepted by people who argue the position in honesty.

    They then say “oh, I didn’t think anyone would have taken that seriously”.

    And that is how a Poe is declared.

    You could say “Is this real, or have I been Poe’d” because it is the one who thought a sarcastic post was real who has been poe’d. Though if you asked, it’s arguable if you’ve been poe’d or not.

  62. #62 buckthetrend
    July 3, 2012

    Hi wow, so I take it you are crumbling into your hot milk having realised that the mass vaccine programmes you seem to have supported have no EBM and are responsible for the dreadful infant mortality, national mortality and general disease ridden state of at least the US.

    It is sad watching a twit clutching at straws and gibbering Edgar Alan as some kind of lunacy plea, just accept the facts and retire defeated.

    Meanwhile the orac machine munches further into the gwuana and declares that all before him shall bow and accept the trite bullshit of CDC, NIH.

    So once again, the only RCT placebo trials ever done in lab settings with controls failed to prove the contagen theory of flu, this wasn’t some alt med group it was government funded, just like the infant mortality rate in the US.

    3 in 32 was the maximum that could be demonstrated to ‘catch the flu’ even with close contact in lab conditions, didn’t even make placebo so that means flu virus is less harmful than water! What the fuck was Abbie studying way ago in this thread, what a pile of woo.

    Niche look it up, I can why can’t you, has your computer got a septic filter or Orac ‘moderating’?

    I can’t believe grown people still believe this myth of ‘catching colds’, it’s hysterically funny.

  63. #63 spence
    July 3, 2012

    Skepticism or what is commonly referred to as septic talk is a pseudo science that uses weasle words and gobbledegook to imply it has something to offer as of the scientific method.

    OK. You just said understanding the thing you are talking about has nothing to offer as of the scientific method. And people don’t seem to take you seriously. I wonder if there could be a connection.

    usually a teenager on the phone

    (citation needed)

    most of the claims of diagnosis were anecdotes.

    You see, there is this clever thing called statistics that allow us to generate accurate estimates of disease incidence in populations without measuring every single one. Let me know if I’m going too quick for you, but I can’t really simplify it much more than this.

  64. #64 spence
    July 3, 2012

    From windy’s article (my emphasis):

    Researchers from the Centers for Disease Control have upped their estimate of the number of people who died of H1N1 globally between April 2009 and August 2010

    The date on your article, buckthetrend:

    April 29, 2009

    Those incompetent scientists not having a time machine handy to measure mortality rates from the future! Disgraceful.

  65. #65 dingo199
    July 3, 2012

    I have an article that says there were no deaths from smallpox in the Americas. It’s dated AD 201.

    See! Shove your germ theory where the sun don’t shine vax loving shills!

    That’s a poe.
    8) (that does actually work!)

  66. #66 buckthetrend
    July 4, 2012

    Hi spence and dongo

    Well have a little look at what they have done with Polio in India, renamed it. Another colossal vaccine failure hidden by excellent marketing and good old medical peer review.

    I find it more and more interesting that you refuse to discuss facts but prefer to quote stats written by people who have most to gain for propergating lies and dishonesty.

    The teenagers on the phone were employed by the NHS in the UK because they had no idea what they were doing on the ‘swine flu hotline’. That’s how most of the stats in the UK were generated, shame that Roche lost all the Tamiflu data that was dished out by the teenagers so the other side of this dodgy data was never seen. Wonder if that is because anti virals are woo? I bet if they had worked we would have had the data shoved up our arses in the media.

    LOL

    Lots of big words there boys, steady, steady.

  67. #67 dustbubble
    roaming in the gloaming
    July 4, 2012

    <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/erv/2012/06/29/well-there-seems-to-be-an-absence-of-a-certain-ornithological-piece-a-headline-regarding-mass-awareness-of-a-certain-avian-influenza-variety/comment-48938&quot; “ .. you can’t be reading too much Orac, the dept of health in Scotland UK puts the cancer and MS epidemic there down to vitamin D deficiency. ”

    [looks out of window] It’s not an epidemic as far as I can see. There’ve pretty much always been slightly elevated figures for all sorts of inconveniences here, compared to more fortunate realms.
    Things like being ginger (guilty), drunk, or presbyterian, as well as some forms of cancer, but not others. Lung/mouth cancers used to be through the roof.
    Industrial working class, huddled together in damp, black-mould-ridden rented slums, smoking ten to the dozen to quell hunger pangs and, as my father reports (oh no, anecdata), on the advice of doctors, to encourage “productive” sputum, as they were unaware of the role of coal dust, asbestos and other muck in engendering cancers.
    Or crammed into stinky kipper-sheds of pubs, hauling away on the Craven-A and ready-rubbed. With a side order of bad whisky.
    That generation is just about gone now, apart from the healthy ones. (eg.hat-and-glove-wearing ladies who never worked (oh, the idea!) or drank, or smoked, and who dined sparingly at tearooms, and a few auld, auld, impossibly craggy shepherds and ploughmen, who indulged in all, except the scran).

    The smoking ban has all but eliminated the sepia-tinted Caledonia of my youth, and housing and diet have (with certain notorious exceptions) improved beyond our wildest imaginings. It would be instructive to note the incidences of historically prevalent diseases before and after the introduction of domestic heating systems, modern dentistry and imported groceries. When I was a lad, there were only about six vegetables that didn’t necessarily come in a wildly expensive tin, and most of them seemed to be potatoes.

    The local health board was until recently of the (commonly-held) opinion that MS does exhibit a strong genetic component, among other factors.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2170112/
    I have a vague idea (which I’m not going to back up as I’ve already spent too much time on this) that Icelanders, Faerose, and Norwegians have it worse, being even more inbred than the Scots and N. Irish, if such a thing is possible.

    The local cystic fibrosis incidence is a comparable situation, again with several hard-to-disentangle factors, important ones seeming to be genetics (again), and those pesky moulds.

    By the way, I get my ‘flu jab every Nov or thereabouts because I’m an old codger. Glad to have it, as at least I’m getting some of my taxes back before I cark it. Even if I did pay in hard cash, and they pay me back in mercury.

    If mercury bothers you, you’d pass out if I showed you what I have in my gob. Had it since about the middle of the last century. Enough to patch a truck radiator, ounces I suspect, not μg
    Why don’t you start <a href="http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/mercury.html&quot; banging on about that instead? It’d be just as entertaining.

    [fingers crossed for the HTML, here we go ..]

  68. #68 spence
    July 4, 2012

    I find it more and more interesting that you refuse to discuss facts

    What, like the dates of articles? Seems pretty factual to me.

    prefer to quote stats

    No; I prefer to *understand* stats. That’s where you and I differ.

    Oh, and “citation needed” doesn’t mean I want you to explain your opinion in more detail. It means “citation needed”.

  69. #69 harold
    July 4, 2012

    Buckthetrend is a peculiar blend of clinical paranoia and Dunning-Kruger effect (AKA “Dummy Crackpot” effect), but I wonder if this is how the anti-vaccine movement is evolving.

    1) It started with a false claim that mercury in vaccines has something to do with autism. While, that claim was falsified, and they don’t use that preservative anymore, so you’d think that issue would be over – everybody won, it wasn’t causing autism but they took it out anyway.

    2) Nope, of course, some people committed huge, fragile egos to the anti-vaccine fad, so the next step is to claim that it’s something else about the vaccines (while inconsistently championing Wakefield, of course).

    3) But wait, there’s still the issue of the diseases like polio and whooping cough. One method would be to deny that the vaccines protect against them, claim they have been defeated by sanitation and vaccines are a coincidence, and so on, and that’s used, but it doesn’t really stand up. So what’s needed is…

    4) Some good old fashioned batshit insane, thick as cognitively challenged brick germ theory denial. Bwahahahahahahhahaha. The nineteenth century was a strange and wonderful time for science. It was a time when, in a less organized and far newer scientific community, otherwise brilliant people could promote elaborately mad hypotheses or deny obvious findings. No wonder the crazier ideas of that more romantic era continue to hold a grip on the minds of the deranged, the rejected, the resentful.

    5) Of course, no science denial is complete without some good old fashioned illogical inconsistency. If you’re going to deny the existence of them there invisible mciro-whatevers and all that there fancy statistical stuff, you can’t be consistent and deny the whole thing. No, you’ve got to be a fanatic worshipper of the ability of biochemists to isolate vitamins, and of physicians to describe and identify vitamin deficiency diseases. The self-same scientific community which completely imagined infectious disease and produced those deluded quacks Pasteur, Koch, and Salk, must simultaneously have been brilliant and incisive when identifying vitamins. To claim otherwise would be to be less than maximally inconsistent, and no self-respecting crackpot can be less than maximally inconsistent.

  70. #70 buckthetrend
    July 4, 2012

    “Official data have shown that the large-scale vaccinations undertaken in the US have failed to obtain any significant improvement of the diseases against which they were supposed to provide protection” Dr A Sabin – developer of the Polio vaccine (lecture to Italian doctors in Piacenza, Italy, Decemebr 7th 1985)

    “The only wholly safe vaccine is a vaccine that is never used”
    Dr James A. Shannon, National Institute of Health, USA

    “Immunisation against smallpox is more hazardous than the disease itself.” Professor Ari Zuckerman, World Health Organisation.

    “Live virus vaccines against influenza and paralytic polio, for example, may in each instance cause the disease it is intended to prevent…”
    Dr Jonas Salk, developer of first polio vaccine (Science 4/4/77 Abstracts)

    Abstract

    In 1988, the World Health Assembly passed resolution WHA 41.28, which committed the World Health Organization (WHO) to the global eradication of poliomyelitis by the year 2000. In spite of the combined efforts by UNICEF, National Polio Surveillance Project (NPSP), Indian Academy of Pediatrics (IAP) and Rotary International, Polio Free India is still a distant dream.

    Though oral polio vaccine has succeeded in polio eradication from many countries but there is high incidence of vaccine failure in India. Oral polio vaccine (OPV) has failed to provide full protection to many children who have developed paralytic polio even after taking 10 or more doses of OPV. In some children, OPV has caused paralysis-vaccine associated paralytic polio (VAPP). Number of children developing polio due to vaccine is high and on increase. Reasons for this could be that even immunocompromised children are being administered OPV because IPV is not available. Vaccine failure has exaggerated the problem of VAPP. No efforts have been made to find the causes for high incidence of vaccine failure and VAPP.
    Keywords

    Paralytic poliomyelitis;
    Immunization;
    Vaccine failure;
    Vaccine associated paralytic poliomyelitis

    Corresponding author contact information
    Corresponding author. Tel.: +91 141 2

    And it’s still going on boys, wakey wakey!

    Oh and half of the Wakefield saga has now been re instated on the medical register and the orgional charges dropped over the MMR/autism event and the other half is taking a two bit journalist to court in Texas, Merck currently is being sued by scientists it employed to fiddle stats on mumps vaccine, virtually the whole data stat base on swine flu was anecdotal.

    That’s some big fluffy belief system shit you’ve got going there Harold, Spence and dustbubble, I think the mercury has started working!

  71. #71 buckthetrend
    July 4, 2012

    Could also be cos the vaccine is a fucking failure and no one has the guts to admit it because that would upset Bill and Melinda.

    How scientific, well medical science that is.

  72. #72 buckthetreind
    July 4, 2012

    “Bird Flu cant infect people, and then turn into a People Flu. People are a dead-end host for Bird Flu.

    But what if it wasnt?

    Evolution will find a way…” Abbie

    More medical myths, why does she assume that nature will find a way to make flu worse, I mean plague went without a vaccine.

  73. #73 spence
    July 4, 2012

    Though oral polio vaccine has succeeded in polio eradication from many countries

    ^^^ From your own article. You’d be happier if those countries still had polio? Sounds like a pretty impressive success story.

    The plague “went”? Went where? You think the plague no longer exists as a disease? Nope, it still exists, and requires rapid treatment with antibiotics to prevent death. Modern understanding of transmission and control of infection means we don’t suffer the massive outbreaks that we used to hundreds of years back, as it is much harder to catch the plague than it is to catch the flu.

    Oh but wait, you believe in spontaneous generation of the flu virus, don’t you (lol)

  74. #74 Sister Chromatid
    July 4, 2012
  75. #75 buckthetrend
    July 5, 2012

    “He was believed to be suffering from septicemic plague” interesting that, when one clicks on the highlighted confirmed bit it won’t load. NIce anecdote and now of course it’s spreading widely through America as we type, oh sorry only one mouse had it.

    Come on fluff heads how about all these doctors telling us vaccination is shit, puking on your pubmed, raise it up and get it down.

    Official data have shown that the large-scale vaccinations undertaken in the US have failed to obtain any significant improvement of the diseases against which they were supposed to provide protection” Dr A Sabin – developer of the Polio vaccine (lecture to Italian doctors in Piacenza, Italy, Decemebr 7th 1985)

    “The only wholly safe vaccine is a vaccine that is never used”
    Dr James A. Shannon, National Institute of Health, USA

    “Immunisation against smallpox is more hazardous than the disease itself.” Professor Ari Zuckerman, World Health Organisation.

    “Live virus vaccines against influenza and paralytic polio, for example, may in each instance cause the disease it is intended to prevent…”
    Dr Jonas Salk, developer of first polio vaccine (Science 4/4/77 Abstracts)

    Abstract

    In 1988, the World Health Assembly passed resolution WHA 41.28, which committed the World Health Organization (WHO) to the global eradication of poliomyelitis by the year 2000. In spite of the combined efforts by UNICEF, National Polio Surveillance Project (NPSP), Indian Academy of Pediatrics (IAP) and Rotary International, Polio Free India is still a distant dream.

    Though oral polio vaccine has succeeded in polio eradication from many countries but there is high incidence of vaccine failure in India. Oral polio vaccine (OPV) has failed to provide full protection to many children who have developed paralytic polio even after taking 10 or more doses of OPV. In some children, OPV has caused paralysis-vaccine associated paralytic polio (VAPP). Number of children developing polio due to vaccine is high and on increase. Reasons for this could be that even immunocompromised children are being administered OPV because IPV is not available. Vaccine failure has exaggerated the problem of VAPP. No efforts have been made to find the causes for high incidence of vaccine failure and VAPP.
    Keywords

    Paralytic poliomyelitis;
    Immunization;
    Vaccine failure;
    Vaccine associated paralytic poliomyelitis

    Corresponding author contact information
    Corresponding author. Tel.: +91 141 2

    And it’s still going on boys, wakey wakey!

    Oh and half of the Wakefield saga has now been re instated on the medical register and the orgional charges dropped over the MMR/autism event and the other half is taking a two bit journalist to court in Texas, Merck currently is being sued by scientists it employed to fiddle stats on mumps vaccine, virtually the whole data stat base on swine flu was anecdotal.

    That’s some big fluffy belief system shit you’ve got going there Harold, Spence and dustbubble, I think the mercury has started working!

  76. #76 RMG
    July 5, 2012

    “Official data have shown that the large-scale vaccinations undertaken in the US have failed to obtain any significant improvement of the diseases against which they were supposed to provide protection” Dr A Sabin – developer of the Polio vaccine (lecture to Italian doctors in Piacenza, Italy, Decemebr 7th 1985)”

    A quote from 1985? Seriously?

    Historical Comparisons of Morbidity and Mortality for Vaccine-Preventable Diseases in the United States
    JAMA. 2007;298(18):2155-2163.

    From the article:
    “A greater than 92% decline in cases and a 99% or greater decline in deaths due to diseases prevented by vaccines recommended before 1980 were shown for diphtheria, mumps, pertussis, and tetanus. Endemic transmission of poliovirus and measles and rubella viruses has been eliminated in the United States; smallpox has been eradicated worldwide. Declines were 80% or greater for cases and deaths of most vaccine-preventable diseases targeted since 1980 including hepatitis A, acute hepatitis B, Hib, and varicella. Declines in cases and deaths of invasive S pneumoniae were 34% and 25%, respectively.”
    http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=209448

  77. #77 buckthetrend
    July 5, 2012

    A quote from 1985? Seriously? RMG, who gives a fuck, the guy developed a vaccine and was brave enough to say it’s shit

  78. #78 spence
    July 5, 2012

    “Immunisation against smallpox is more hazardous than the disease itself.” Professor Ari Zuckerman, World Health Organisation.

    Given that the vaccine eradicated the disease, this claim is obviously wrong on the face of it. I have never had the smallpox shot and yet the vaccine has ensured that I will not catch the disease. It doesn’t get better than that.

    But I thought I’d try and find the original source for the quote (just in case of quote mining / context etc), but when I searched, all I found was crazy irrational websites like whale dot to and so on. No actual origin for the quote at all.

    So, buckthetrend, please link to the original source of this quote so we can see it in full context (or it is completely worthless). And of course a claim (even from a respectable scientist) is worthless without supporting evidence, so please link to that as well.

  79. #79 buckthetrend
    July 5, 2012

    JAMA. 2007;298(18):2155-2163.

    Are you taking the piss, written about by the people who validate themselves throught their own medical peer review!

    let’s wait until the current court case against Merck for fiddling the data on mumps vaccine efficacy is done and dusted.

    When you look at coronors records for recorded deaths instead of doctors telling us what they are told to say the story is 180 opposite to your fantasy reference.

  80. #80 buckthetrend
    July 5, 2012

    “Given that the vaccine eradicated the disease, this claim is obviously wrong on the face of it.” Spence

    You are so full of myths it is getting embarressing pointing it out Spence, like telling me my computer is full of lion repellent because there are no lions here!

    It’s like being amoung believers on this site.

  81. #81 Wow
    July 5, 2012

    troll de foll de rol.

  82. #82 Optimus Primate
    July 5, 2012

    Guys, I’m not saying this should dictate how we respond to buckthetrend, but I think it’s worth noting that I strongly suspect this isn’t one person. If it is one person, Dissociative identity disorder or substance abuse may be at play. Take note of the drastic shifts in writing style, and also the ever-changing icons.

  83. #83 Skepcheck
    July 5, 2012

    Optimus: I concur strongly. It could be as many as 5.

  84. #84 trendthebuck
    July 5, 2012

    That’s an interesting tactic boys, avoid discussing all the doctors and vaccine developers from Sabin to the CDC who know vaccination is bullshit and pretent some artificial construct to imply rule breaches and therefore impending banning! Just like peer medical review, I’m honoured.

    You know full well it’s one person because the noble lord Orac has set up a ban from url so it doesn’t matter what email address I use, basically the time lord Orac has decided already that I can’t post evidence on his bloggy and he keeps removing it, doesnt matter what name or email.

    Funny that, I had no idea that septics were so afraid of the written word, I love this site it’s like having lots of target practice.

    That picture of Optimus looks like he’s been caught wanking by his mum, needs a make over.

    So just in case you missed it here is a list of doctors who know vaccination is bullshit:

    Official data have shown that the large-scale vaccinations undertaken in the US have failed to obtain any significant improvement of the diseases against which they were supposed to provide protection” Dr A Sabin – developer of the Polio vaccine (lecture to Italian doctors in Piacenza, Italy, Decemebr 7th 1985)

    “The only wholly safe vaccine is a vaccine that is never used”
    Dr James A. Shannon, National Institute of Health, USA

    “Immunisation against smallpox is more hazardous than the disease itself.” Professor Ari Zuckerman, World Health Organisation.

    “Live virus vaccines against influenza and paralytic polio, for example, may in each instance cause the disease it is intended to prevent…”
    Dr Jonas Salk, developer of first polio vaccine (Science 4/4/77 Abstracts)

    Abstract

    In 1988, the World Health Assembly passed resolution WHA 41.28, which committed the World Health Organization (WHO) to the global eradication of poliomyelitis by the year 2000. In spite of the combined efforts by UNICEF, National Polio Surveillance Project (NPSP), Indian Academy of Pediatrics (IAP) and Rotary International, Polio Free India is still a distant dream.

    Though oral polio vaccine has succeeded in polio eradication from many countries but there is high incidence of vaccine failure in India. Oral polio vaccine (OPV) has failed to provide full protection to many children who have developed paralytic polio even after taking 10 or more doses of OPV. In some children, OPV has caused paralysis-vaccine associated paralytic polio (VAPP). Number of children developing polio due to vaccine is high and on increase. Reasons for this could be that even immunocompromised children are being administered OPV because IPV is not available. Vaccine failure has exaggerated the problem of VAPP. No efforts have been made to find the causes for high incidence of vaccine failure and VAPP.
    Keywords

    Paralytic poliomyelitis;
    Immunization;
    Vaccine failure;
    Vaccine associated paralytic poliomyelitis

    Corresponding author contact information
    Corresponding author. Tel.: +91 141 2

    And it’s still going on boys, wakey wakey!

    Oh and half of the Wakefield saga has now been re instated on the medical register and the orgional charges dropped over the MMR/autism event and the other half is taking a two bit journalist to court in Texas, Merck currently is being sued by scientists it employed to fiddle stats on mumps vaccine, virtually the whole data stat base on swine flu was anecdotal.

  85. #85 Wow
    July 5, 2012

    The ever changing icon can be arranged by using a different entry in the email address, thereby avoiding blocking based on email address.

    This has failed to continue to work as bucker is being blocked based on the userid and is now changing names.

    However, their IP address is available and this can be blocked too.

  86. #86 spence
    July 6, 2012

    I have to admit, buckthetrend is the least interesting anti-vaxxer I’ve ever come across.

    According to buckthetrend, disease spontaneously generates, the bubonic plague has been eradicated, and smallpox is roaming wild in the Serengeti.

    There’s only so long that an anti-vaxxer can blandly assert that black is white before it gets boring. Zzzz.

  87. #87 wow
    July 6, 2012

    Troll de rol de fol.

    In what way, you stupid bucket, do you think you’re managing todo to your case here? Even if something you say is right, because you’re 100% fruitcake, it will be, validly, ignored.

  88. #88 wow
    July 6, 2012

    PS if you think he’s bad here (by the way, we don’t know the sex of this troll) have a look over at casaubon’s blog here on SB.

    Both women. Indicative of a secondary problem? And still not proof of the sex of this troll, since many fundie women hate women scientists just as much as any misogynist male.

  89. #89 wow
    July 6, 2012

    And I do care about the kids dying, troll ski, I’m just not using it to further my idiot views. The kids are dying because the vaccines aren’t getting to them because they’re too expensive and this is because of patents on drugs.

    Rather than insist they should be left to die because I be live that the vaccines are harmful like you do, I campaign to get drug patents revoked.

  90. #90 bucket
    July 6, 2012

    “The kids are dying because the vaccines aren’t getting to them because they’re too expensive and this is because of patents on drugs.”

    Wow, you need to get beyond the pubmed zone, start looking beyond the myopia of medical peer review. Kids are being paralysed by vaccines in India, whether I am mad or not and you are propergating the kind of sewage that these vaccines are feeding.

    “Rather than insist they should be left to die because I be live that the vaccines are harmful like you do, I campaign to get drug patents revoked.” Wow

    It is so sad that someone has conned you into joining the moonies and told you that anyone who points out that vaccines are failing, have no credible EBM or simply are useless is mad therefore you can ignore them.

    Put down the X box and move away from the game.

    Let’s have some comment on doctors who know vaccination is bullshit and stop pretending you have a clue:

    Official data have shown that the large-scale vaccinations undertaken in the US have failed to obtain any significant improvement of the diseases against which they were supposed to provide protection” Dr A Sabin – developer of the Polio vaccine (lecture to Italian doctors in Piacenza, Italy, Decemebr 7th 1985)

    “The only wholly safe vaccine is a vaccine that is never used”
    Dr James A. Shannon, National Institute of Health, USA

    “Immunisation against smallpox is more hazardous than the disease itself.” Professor Ari Zuckerman, World Health Organisation.

    “Live virus vaccines against influenza and paralytic polio, for example, may in each instance cause the disease it is intended to prevent…”
    Dr Jonas Salk, developer of first polio vaccine (Science 4/4/77 Abstracts)

    Abstract

    In 1988, the World Health Assembly passed resolution WHA 41.28, which committed the World Health Organization (WHO) to the global eradication of poliomyelitis by the year 2000. In spite of the combined efforts by UNICEF, National Polio Surveillance Project (NPSP), Indian Academy of Pediatrics (IAP) and Rotary International, Polio Free India is still a distant dream.

    Though oral polio vaccine has succeeded in polio eradication from many countries but there is high incidence of vaccine failure in India. Oral polio vaccine (OPV) has failed to provide full protection to many children who have developed paralytic polio even after taking 10 or more doses of OPV. In some children, OPV has caused paralysis-vaccine associated paralytic polio (VAPP). Number of children developing polio due to vaccine is high and on increase. Reasons for this could be that even immunocompromised children are being administered OPV because IPV is not available. Vaccine failure has exaggerated the problem of VAPP. No efforts have been made to find the causes for high incidence of vaccine failure and VAPP.
    Keywords

    Paralytic poliomyelitis;
    Immunization;
    Vaccine failure;
    Vaccine associated paralytic poliomyelitis

    Corresponding author contact information
    Corresponding author. Tel.: +91 141 2

    And it’s still going on boys, wakey wakey!

    Oh and half of the Wakefield saga has now been re instated on the medical register and the orgional charges dropped over the MMR/autism event and the other half is taking a two bit journalist to court in Texas, Merck currently is being sued by scientists it employed to fiddle stats on mumps vaccine, virtually the whole data stat base on swine flu was anecdotal.

  91. #91 wow
    July 6, 2012

    Irony: bucket asking someone to look beyond their prejudice…

  92. #92 bucket
    July 6, 2012

    Still can’t face reading it can you wow, why not pop over to onion thread and have a look, twat.

  93. #93 bucket
    July 6, 2012

    I was taught as a child vaccination worked, that in a sense was my brainwashed prejudice. I looked beyond, found out, contrary to most of my peers at the time that I had been taught a lie. I saw many gophers like you all nodding in unison, sucking cock and that is the only reason vaccination is still going on.

    If I wanted to be immediately popular I would suck my own cock and support this shit.

    I now have many friends and associates who are very grateful that I have spent the time unravelling the shit that you people spout, show them the truth and save the health of their family without your help at all. Most doctors at best are lap dogs

  94. #94 harold
    July 6, 2012

    In what way, you stupid bucket, do you think you’re managing todo to your case here?

    This is a good question.

    If the goal is to convince an objective, informed reader, then that goal, to put it mildly, has not been achieved.

    However, Let’s look at the techniques used, and consider what the probably unconscious goal really is. The techniques used are –

    1) Extremely juvenile sneering, sarcastic language, 2) claims of superior knowledge but evasive refusal to provide serious citations, 3) complete refusal to engage with or even acknowledge the actual evidence, except by exaggeratedly sneering blanket dismissal and 4) false accusations that critics are uniformly persecuting, uncaring, corrupt, etc.

    These techniques don’t convince the informed, objective reader; they do the opposite – not only do they demonstrate that Buck has no logical argument whatsoever, they are deliberately designed to create strong emotional conflict.

    The primary reason to use such techniques is for defense of the deluded ego against cognitive dissonance. He or she sneers at the very idea of understanding the topic, because trying to do so would both force acceptance of cognitive limitations and force examination of strong evidence against his or her claims. He or she attempts to provoke hostile responses, because then criticism can be written off as being due to mutual hostility.

    A secondary reason is that, if allies should appear, this style of writing will create an ingroup/outgroup situation.

  95. #95 Harold
    July 6, 2012

    Todo was not the name of the dog in the Wizard of Oz, maybe that’s Harold’s alter ego in the Wizard of Orac? who knows.

    It is still amazing that none of you can see that the pants are down on vaccination, that medical peer review is corrupt and that the clinical evidence for vaccine efficacy is utterly dreadful.

    Your inability to engage is parallel to what one has come to expect from ‘medical experts’, detached, unable to reason or think independently and above all ignore the clinical horrors that vaccination is causing.

    So once again Harold, your comments on the following, if you can take your fingers out of your arse long enough to concentrate, steady now, no dribbling.

    “Rather than insist they should be left to die because I be live that the vaccines are harmful like you do, I campaign to get drug patents revoked.” Wow

    It is so sad that someone has conned you into joining the moonies and told you that anyone who points out that vaccines are failing, have no credible EBM or simply are useless is mad therefore you can ignore them.

    Put down the X box and move away from the game.

    Let’s have some comment on doctors who know vaccination is bullshit and stop pretending you have a clue:

    Official data have shown that the large-scale vaccinations undertaken in the US have failed to obtain any significant improvement of the diseases against which they were supposed to provide protection” Dr A Sabin – developer of the Polio vaccine (lecture to Italian doctors in Piacenza, Italy, Decemebr 7th 1985)

    “The only wholly safe vaccine is a vaccine that is never used”
    Dr James A. Shannon, National Institute of Health, USA

    “Immunisation against smallpox is more hazardous than the disease itself.” Professor Ari Zuckerman, World Health Organisation.

    “Live virus vaccines against influenza and paralytic polio, for example, may in each instance cause the disease it is intended to prevent…”
    Dr Jonas Salk, developer of first polio vaccine (Science 4/4/77 Abstracts)

    Abstract

    In 1988, the World Health Assembly passed resolution WHA 41.28, which committed the World Health Organization (WHO) to the global eradication of poliomyelitis by the year 2000. In spite of the combined efforts by UNICEF, National Polio Surveillance Project (NPSP), Indian Academy of Pediatrics (IAP) and Rotary International, Polio Free India is still a distant dream.

    Though oral polio vaccine has succeeded in polio eradication from many countries but there is high incidence of vaccine failure in India. Oral polio vaccine (OPV) has failed to provide full protection to many children who have developed paralytic polio even after taking 10 or more doses of OPV. In some children, OPV has caused paralysis-vaccine associated paralytic polio (VAPP). Number of children developing polio due to vaccine is high and on increase. Reasons for this could be that even immunocompromised children are being administered OPV because IPV is not available. Vaccine failure has exaggerated the problem of VAPP. No efforts have been made to find the causes for high incidence of vaccine failure and VAPP.
    Keywords

    Paralytic poliomyelitis;
    Immunization;
    Vaccine failure;
    Vaccine associated paralytic poliomyelitis

    Corresponding author contact information
    Corresponding author. Tel.: +91 141 2

    And it’s still going on boys, wakey wakey!

    Oh and half of the Wakefield saga has now been re instated on the medical register and the orgional charges dropped over the MMR/autism event and the other half is taking a two bit journalist to court in Texas, Merck currently is being sued by scientists it employed to fiddle stats on mumps vaccine, virtually the whole data stat base on swine flu was anecdotal.

  96. #96 wow
    July 6, 2012

    Harold is the same lunatic as all the other silly little buckers. It has just discovered Orac. It’s never been out before, so it’s been rather busy dribbling on all these new threads.

    Still has nothing to say.

  97. #97 spence
    July 6, 2012

    All the points have been addressed and yet it copies and pastes the same things again. Duh. Pure trolling, no intent to actually justify its abhorrent position on vaccines.

  98. #98 harold
    United States
    July 6, 2012

    Todo was not the name of the dog in the Wizard of Oz, maybe that’s Harold’s alter ego in the Wizard of Orac? who knows.

    Extremely juvenile sneering, sarcastic language

    It is still amazing that none of you can see that the pants are down on vaccination,

    Extremely juvenile sneering, sarcastic language

    that medical peer review is corrupt and that the clinical evidence for vaccine efficacy is utterly dreadful.

    false accusations that critics are uniformly persecuting, uncaring, corrupt, etc.

    Your inability to engage is parallel to what one has come to expect from ‘medical experts’, detached, unable to reason or think independently and above all ignore the clinical horrors that vaccination is causing.

    1) Extremely juvenile sneering, sarcastic language, 2) claims of superior knowledge but evasive refusal to provide serious citations, 3) complete refusal to engage with or even acknowledge the actual evidence, except by exaggeratedly sneering blanket dismissal and 4) false accusations that critics are uniformly persecuting, uncaring, corrupt, etc.

    So once again Harold, your comments on the following, if you can take your fingers out of your arse long enough to concentrate, steady now, no dribbling.

    Extremely juvenile sneering, sarcastic language

    “Rather than insist they should be left to die because I be live that the vaccines are harmful like you do, I campaign to get drug patents revoked.” Wow

    It is so sad that someone has conned you into joining the moonies and told you that anyone who points out that vaccines are failing, have no credible EBM or simply are useless is mad therefore you can ignore them.
    Put down the X box and move away from the game.

    Let’s have some comment on doctors who know vaccination is bullshit and stop pretending you have a clue:

    Official data have shown that the large-scale vaccinations undertaken in the US have failed to obtain any significant improvement of the diseases against which they were supposed to provide protection” Dr A Sabin – developer of the Polio vaccine (lecture to Italian doctors in Piacenza, Italy, Decemebr 7th 1985)

    1) Logical fallacy of argument from authority.

    2) Probably a quote mine taken out of context, but irrelevant even if not.

    “The only wholly safe vaccine is a vaccine that is never used”
    Dr James A. Shannon, National Institute of Health, USA

    Obviously that’s true, and if the diseases didn’t exist, there would be no reason to vaccinate.

    Immunisation against smallpox is more hazardous than the disease itself.” Professor Ari Zuckerman, World Health Organisation.

    1) Argument from authority again.

    2) Completely false; smallpox has been successfully immunized against since the 18th century.

    3) Where is this quote taken from? Who is or was Ari Zuckerman? What was he a professor of? Where (WHO doesn’t employ people as “professor”)? Is he related to this Arie Zuckerman, the only one who has published on vaccinaton – http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17291963

    “Live virus vaccines against influenza and paralytic polio, for example, may in each instance cause the disease it is intended to prevent…”
    Dr Jonas Salk, developer of first polio vaccine (Science 4/4/77 Abstracts)

    Obviously true. Live virus vaccines are suboptimal but have been the only choice at various times and places.

    No-one is making the simpleton straw man claim that any vaccine used in any way is always 100% without any risk.

    You are making the simpleton madman claim that all vaccines are always useless and harmless. However, others are not making claims of equal stupidity.

    Abstract

    In 1988, the World Health Assembly passed resolution WHA 41.28, which committed the World Health Organization (WHO) to the global eradication of poliomyelitis by the year 2000. In spite of the combined efforts by UNICEF, National Polio Surveillance Project (NPSP), Indian Academy of Pediatrics (IAP) and Rotary International, Polio Free India is still a distant dream…

    Okay, that looks like a valid reference. What is the journal, year of publication, volume number, page number? Who are the authors?

    The article does not support your simpleton contention that all vaccination is always harmless and useless.

    It most certainly does not support your callous, repulsively offensive, and grotesquely hypocritical claim that you are uniquely concerned with the well-being of children in India.

    The article is clearly, even from this snippet of abstract, written by serious scientists who support the goal of eradicating polio in India. Vaccines must be used correctly, there are contraindications, and in extreme conditions like those found in many parts of India, that can be challenging.

    An article about how to best use vaccines to achieve a benevolent goal is not an argument against ever using vaccines.

    It’s nice to be able to think. With some help, you might be able to. Get the help you need.

  99. #99 buckthetrend
    July 7, 2012

    Well Harry old boy, now you’ve thrown all your toys out of the pram I only really need to point you to this:

    “that medical peer review is corrupt and that the clinical evidence for vaccine efficacy is utterly dreadful.”
    http://www.inters.org/disf/sites/default/files/Onest%C3%A0_nella_Scienza.pdf

    “Logical fallacy of argument from authority.”
    And this stupid fantasy get out of jail sentence is straight out of the septic bibilous and I doubt you have ever worked out what all those big words mean.

    “Argument from authority again.” So Harry, more septicus here, if I don’t cite authority I am damned if I do and you don’t like it I am appealing to authority!

    That stupid straw man sentence too, have you been talking to pebbles and bam bam?

    Your answer is so full of septicus reasoning and dichotomy it can only be designed to hide either your ability to engage or to try and stop the pants on your lack of argument from being seen!

    ““Live virus vaccines against influenza and paralytic polio, for example, may in each instance cause the disease it is intended to prevent…”
    Dr Jonas Salk, developer of first polio vaccine (Science 4/4/77 Abstracts)
    Harry puked:
    Obviously true. Live virus vaccines are suboptimal but have been the only choice at various times and places.”

    So it’s ok to poison thousands of kids with a live one, how on earth can it be only described as suboptimal! How crass.

    “However, others are not making claims of equal stupidity.” So who are these others Harry, Bill and Melinda? Others is not enough, you are appealing to mystery and implied authority.

    Harry apologetically sneered:
    “Vaccines must be used correctly, there are contraindications, ” You bet and do you know that virtually no parent is shown these contraindications prior to the proceedure, so no informed consent. It is usually done by low pile nurses like some baptism. Even worse when it’s the big white man pushing his belief system on people who can’t even speak the language.

    How arrogant. patronising and assumptive is that.

    “All the points have been addressed” Selectively ignored Spence, you obviously aren’t important enough to say much more.

    Next

  100. #100 spence
    July 7, 2012

    “All the points have been addressed” Selectively ignored Spence, you obviously aren’t important enough to say much more.

    There’s no need to say much more when you keep writing statements that are obviously false not only to scientists, but to anyone with any remote connection to reality.

    You don’t know what argument from authority is, either. It is wrong to say “they are right because they are scientists”, but nobody is making that claim. They are right because they have presented comprehensive research and analysis that shows them to be right. You are wrong because you have asserted spontaneous generation of germs, that the bubonic plague no longer exists, and that smallpox hasn’t been eradicated by vaccines, all of which can be observed by regular people without the need for complex statistics or a deep understanding of science or biology.

    But please keep talking. I accept that some people will always believe falsehoods no matter how clearly they are explained. It is part of human nature. But by being so stubbornly wrong about your claims, you do more harm to the anti-vaxxer movement than any amount of rational debate could achieve.