Posted by John S. Wilkins on May 16, 2009 I find it highly ironic that the people taking the moral stand here are the atheists:
It does not matter if it prevented some sort of attack. It is still a crime, it is still wrong, and those responsible for it deserve criminal prosecution. No amount of talk about 9/11 can change this.
“It”, is torture. Yes, it is a war crime, and the people who both did it and authorised it are war criminals. End of story.
In my Jewish NG, several people insist that one cannot be an atheist and behave morally. It is useless to try and convince them otherwise, although I continue to do so.
Shiny new banner.
Tell them that atheists have to be moral, because there is no hope of justice any other way.
Ask them how they resolve the Euthyphro Dilemma.
Ask them if they believe their chosen deity is a capricious being or one of reason and order. If the former, why follow a moral code that was thought up on a whim, if the latter, what is to prevent us from reasoning to the same conclusions all by ourselves.
On second thoughts, I’m sure you’ve already tried these on them without success – that’s been my experience – so forget it.
Big surprise, basing morality on science is more effective than basing it on superstition.
More practically.. with fundie-xtians:
1.Hardly nobody “absolute moral christians” follows me and undersigns this:
“I doom all holocausts and genocides (biblical too).”
2.Slavery ok in OT and slavery well..in NT and slavery NO! in 20th century. So no absolute moral have ever existed in biblical western world..
3.Moral atheist saves lives and lies if angry neonazi mob ask and search for hidden jews in his house. Absolutely moral christians never lies and so kills his jewish friends. Goodbye good absolute disgusting moralists…
Regards,
“neoreconstructionist” Lutheran
It’s interesting that in the ten commandments, commandments like “thou shallt not have any gods before me” or “thou shallt not covet” took precedence over, say, “thou shallt not torture”, or “thou shallt not enslave”, or “thou shallt not hate.” Not much room for empathy back then. Some of these commandments are whimsical to us today, but I suspect they were not whimsical to the writer(s) of the ten commandments in their context, who probably used them to unite and control their people in crude and chaotic times. In particular, “thou shallt not have any other gods before me” would help to ensure that the authors of the commandments stay in power. A meme with a defense mechanism.
In the christian worldview, father/king God demands the allegiance of everybody. Those who refuse to be his children/subjects, who rebel against his rule, he will treat just like every other patriarchial dictator has always treated rebels – he will send them to the torture room to be tortured. Forever and ever. As a lesson to everyone else.
Hell is a political prison, pure and simple. At least the bloodthirsty fundies are not being inconsistent.
Hell is a political prison, pure and simple. At least the bloodthirsty fundies are not being inconsistent.
“Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.” – Thomas Paine
Having been there, I’m pretty sure that hell can and does exist, even without a God. Not sure about heaven, though. One can always hope.
“It”, is torture. Yes, it is a war crime, and the people who both did it and authorised it are war criminals. End of story.
And I am hopeful that a thorough investigation will be done, with criminal prosecutions if applicable for those who were also complicit through “briefings.” I want my leadership examined, even if it delays Obama’s Big Plan.
In my comment at this post, I address the issue of morality and atheism as viewed by the Christian writer of the blog.
The Euthyphro holds no terror for many sectarians I’ve met because they are willing to go the whole way on the thesis that the good just is what God happens to be in favor of. If you really believe that God is a terrifying and arbitrary tyrant, it doesn’t help to pick nits with his ethical reasoning. It’s “anything you say, boss!” For followers of Jehovah’s Witness and similar cults, mindless obedience to transcendence goes beyond the teleological suspension of the ethical all the way to the teleological suspension of the teleological. They’re like the suicidal votaries of the snake god in the old Conan the Barbarian movie.
May 17, 2009
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