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	<title>Comments for Gene Expression</title>
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		<title>Comment on Canada is not a &#8220;free society&#8221; by miko</title>
		<link>http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2010/03/24/canada-is-not-a-free-society/#comment-20676</link>
		<dc:creator>miko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Mar 2010 12:53:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2010/03/24/canada-is-not-a-free-society/#comment-20676</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;I didn&#039;t say that there weren&#039;t individual advocates for it. I just said that no societal consensus exists for some right not to be offended, whereas it does elsewhere.&quot;

It certainly exists in the U.S., where the federal government fines any broadcast media that transmits language or terms it has deemed offensive. Whether you agree with them or not, hate speech laws, in contrast, are not about preventing offense, they are about preventing incitement to violence or harassment.

First Amendment freedoms in the US have been curtailed regularly almost since the moment of its passage, often in ways that would horrify us today (the Sedition Act), often in ways that make sense. Free speech absolutists are ideologues, therefore pointless to talk to. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I didn&#8217;t say that there weren&#8217;t individual advocates for it. I just said that no societal consensus exists for some right not to be offended, whereas it does elsewhere.&#8221;</p>
<p>It certainly exists in the U.S., where the federal government fines any broadcast media that transmits language or terms it has deemed offensive. Whether you agree with them or not, hate speech laws, in contrast, are not about preventing offense, they are about preventing incitement to violence or harassment.</p>
<p>First Amendment freedoms in the US have been curtailed regularly almost since the moment of its passage, often in ways that would horrify us today (the Sedition Act), often in ways that make sense. Free speech absolutists are ideologues, therefore pointless to talk to. </p>
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		<title>Comment on Canada is not a &#8220;free society&#8221; by Steve</title>
		<link>http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2010/03/24/canada-is-not-a-free-society/#comment-20675</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Mar 2010 12:36:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2010/03/24/canada-is-not-a-free-society/#comment-20675</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In reply to nobody in particular, Hitchens addresses this issue in a speech in opposition to hate speech laws in Canada.

&lt;blockquote&gt;What they say is, it’s not just the right of the person who speaks to be heard, it is the right of everyone in the audience to listen and to hear, and every time you silence somebody you make yourself a prisoner of your own action, because you deny yourself the right to hear something. In other words, your own right to hear and be exposed is as much involved, in all these cases, as is the right of the other to voice his or her view. Indeed as John Stuart Mill said, if all in society were agreed in the truth and beauty and value of one proposition, all except one person, it would be most important, in fact it would become even more important, that that one heretic be heard, because we would still benefit from his perhaps outrageous or appalling view.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Later in the speech he says this...

&lt;blockquote&gt;Bear in mind ladies and gentlemen, every time you violate, or propose to violate the free speech of someone else, you, in pretensia, you’re making a rod for your own back, because the other question raised by Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes is simply this. Who’s going to decide? To whom do you award the right to decide which speech is harmful, or who is the harmful speaker? Or to determine in advance what are the harmful consequences going to be, that we know enough about in advance to prevent? To whom would you give this job? To whom are you going to award the task of being the censor?

Whom to would you give the job of deciding for you, relieve you of the responsibility of hearing what you might have to hear? Do you know anyone,...
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Any proponent of any kind of speech limiting should consider the question, &quot;Who decides?&quot;  A government should not be in the business of deciding what the citizens should say, hear or think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3Hg-Y7MugU&amp;feature=related
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to nobody in particular, Hitchens addresses this issue in a speech in opposition to hate speech laws in Canada.</p>
<blockquote><p>What they say is, it’s not just the right of the person who speaks to be heard, it is the right of everyone in the audience to listen and to hear, and every time you silence somebody you make yourself a prisoner of your own action, because you deny yourself the right to hear something. In other words, your own right to hear and be exposed is as much involved, in all these cases, as is the right of the other to voice his or her view. Indeed as John Stuart Mill said, if all in society were agreed in the truth and beauty and value of one proposition, all except one person, it would be most important, in fact it would become even more important, that that one heretic be heard, because we would still benefit from his perhaps outrageous or appalling view.</p></blockquote>
<p>Later in the speech he says this&#8230;</p>
<blockquote><p>Bear in mind ladies and gentlemen, every time you violate, or propose to violate the free speech of someone else, you, in pretensia, you’re making a rod for your own back, because the other question raised by Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes is simply this. Who’s going to decide? To whom do you award the right to decide which speech is harmful, or who is the harmful speaker? Or to determine in advance what are the harmful consequences going to be, that we know enough about in advance to prevent? To whom would you give this job? To whom are you going to award the task of being the censor?</p>
<p>Whom to would you give the job of deciding for you, relieve you of the responsibility of hearing what you might have to hear? Do you know anyone,&#8230;
</p></blockquote>
<p>Any proponent of any kind of speech limiting should consider the question, &#8220;Who decides?&#8221;  A government should not be in the business of deciding what the citizens should say, hear or think.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3Hg-Y7MugU&#038;feature=related" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3Hg-Y7MugU&#038;feature=related</a></p>
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		<title>Comment on Canada is not a &#8220;free society&#8221; by Richard</title>
		<link>http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2010/03/24/canada-is-not-a-free-society/#comment-20674</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Mar 2010 12:34:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2010/03/24/canada-is-not-a-free-society/#comment-20674</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Alan Rock&#039;s (President of the University of Ottawa)statement was just right:

http://www.alumninews.uottawa.ca/alumni/View.aspx?id=195828&amp;q=194726803&amp;qz=61ec9c

He is also the former Justice Minister for the federal government of Canada.

Ann Coulter is a liar (stop the presses). But I fully support her right to lie.  ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alan Rock&#8217;s (President of the University of Ottawa)statement was just right:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.alumninews.uottawa.ca/alumni/View.aspx?id=195828&#038;q=194726803&#038;qz=61ec9c" rel="nofollow">http://www.alumninews.uottawa.ca/alumni/View.aspx?id=195828&#038;q=194726803&#038;qz=61ec9c</a></p>
<p>He is also the former Justice Minister for the federal government of Canada.</p>
<p>Ann Coulter is a liar (stop the presses). But I fully support her right to lie.  </p>
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		<title>Comment on Canada is not a &#8220;free society&#8221; by omar</title>
		<link>http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2010/03/24/canada-is-not-a-free-society/#comment-20673</link>
		<dc:creator>omar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Mar 2010 11:53:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2010/03/24/canada-is-not-a-free-society/#comment-20673</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I do agree with McNeely that in this case Coulter is being a drama queen (as usual) and while these &quot;hate speech&quot; notions are silly and contrary to ideals of free speech, it may well be that her speech being cancelled is not exactly a good example of &quot;hate speech&quot; laws run wild...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do agree with McNeely that in this case Coulter is being a drama queen (as usual) and while these &#8220;hate speech&#8221; notions are silly and contrary to ideals of free speech, it may well be that her speech being cancelled is not exactly a good example of &#8220;hate speech&#8221; laws run wild&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Comment on Canada is not a &#8220;free society&#8221; by omar</title>
		<link>http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2010/03/24/canada-is-not-a-free-society/#comment-20672</link>
		<dc:creator>omar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Mar 2010 11:48:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2010/03/24/canada-is-not-a-free-society/#comment-20672</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Interesting discussion. Razib, American free speech rights are probably safe for now, but a silly and inflated notion of &quot;hate speech&quot; certainly infects many universities and entire cities (like San Francisco), it could get worse....I personally think there is such a thing as &quot;hate speech&quot; but regulating it by law is utterly pointless because the only time it is remotely justified to regard it as worthy of a ban is when the oppressed group is REALLY oppressed and &quot;hate speech&quot; is part of a vast social apparatus of oppression; and in that situation, the law will be on the side of the haters anyway (I am thinking of the pre-civil rights south). By the time it can be successfully regulated by the law, the worst is over and the obvious downsides of regulation are far worse than any benefit to be gained from it. Then the real purpose is to make somebody feel the glow of being good and moral (&quot;yet another glorious victory for the brave anti-imperialist bullshitters league&quot;)OR (in case of more sophisticated anti-imperialism) to strike a blow to undermine the smooth functioning of a society that you want to destroy anyway. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting discussion. Razib, American free speech rights are probably safe for now, but a silly and inflated notion of &#8220;hate speech&#8221; certainly infects many universities and entire cities (like San Francisco), it could get worse&#8230;.I personally think there is such a thing as &#8220;hate speech&#8221; but regulating it by law is utterly pointless because the only time it is remotely justified to regard it as worthy of a ban is when the oppressed group is REALLY oppressed and &#8220;hate speech&#8221; is part of a vast social apparatus of oppression; and in that situation, the law will be on the side of the haters anyway (I am thinking of the pre-civil rights south). By the time it can be successfully regulated by the law, the worst is over and the obvious downsides of regulation are far worse than any benefit to be gained from it. Then the real purpose is to make somebody feel the glow of being good and moral (&#8220;yet another glorious victory for the brave anti-imperialist bullshitters league&#8221;)OR (in case of more sophisticated anti-imperialism) to strike a blow to undermine the smooth functioning of a society that you want to destroy anyway. </p>
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		<title>Comment on Canada is not a &#8220;free society&#8221; by miko</title>
		<link>http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2010/03/24/canada-is-not-a-free-society/#comment-20671</link>
		<dc:creator>miko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Mar 2010 10:26:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2010/03/24/canada-is-not-a-free-society/#comment-20671</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My understanding is that the Coulter people cancelled the event due to the protesters, but the protests were on the whole peaceful and there was no threat to her person or her ability to say whatever she wanted. So how was her speech limited, except by her not being comfortable without her usual crowd of ecstatic mouth-breathers?

And yeah, Canadians strive for collective good in addition to individual rights...this opens up some opportunities for abuse but on the whole they have done an incredibly good job of balancing these priorities. Which is ironic, because chants of &quot;USA BEST&quot; are usually based on our COLLECTIVE military might and COLLECTIVE GDP, while by every possible standard of INDIVIDUAL quality of life and well-being, Canada is kicking our ass.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My understanding is that the Coulter people cancelled the event due to the protesters, but the protests were on the whole peaceful and there was no threat to her person or her ability to say whatever she wanted. So how was her speech limited, except by her not being comfortable without her usual crowd of ecstatic mouth-breathers?</p>
<p>And yeah, Canadians strive for collective good in addition to individual rights&#8230;this opens up some opportunities for abuse but on the whole they have done an incredibly good job of balancing these priorities. Which is ironic, because chants of &#8220;USA BEST&#8221; are usually based on our COLLECTIVE military might and COLLECTIVE GDP, while by every possible standard of INDIVIDUAL quality of life and well-being, Canada is kicking our ass.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Canada is not a &#8220;free society&#8221; by Interrobang</title>
		<link>http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2010/03/24/canada-is-not-a-free-society/#comment-20670</link>
		<dc:creator>Interrobang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Mar 2010 09:27:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2010/03/24/canada-is-not-a-free-society/#comment-20670</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Did any of you actually read the letter the U of O administrator sent to Coulter?  All it said was basically &quot;The laws are different here, so mind that you don&#039;t get yourself into trouble.&quot;  Knowing Coulter&#039;s history of demonising everyone she doesn&#039;t like to an unreasonable and insane degree, that&#039;s probably actually good advice, not that I wouldn&#039;t have minded her doing a stint in the hoosegow, just on principle.  She has a bad case of memetic rabies, and it shows.  It was hardly &quot;smug,&quot; nor was it attempting to stifle her speech in any way, since it explicitly did &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; try to tell her what she could and couldn&#039;t say, merely that she should know the law before speaking here.  If you can&#039;t (or won&#039;t) parse the difference there, there really isn&#039;t any help for you.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did any of you actually read the letter the U of O administrator sent to Coulter?  All it said was basically &#8220;The laws are different here, so mind that you don&#8217;t get yourself into trouble.&#8221;  Knowing Coulter&#8217;s history of demonising everyone she doesn&#8217;t like to an unreasonable and insane degree, that&#8217;s probably actually good advice, not that I wouldn&#8217;t have minded her doing a stint in the hoosegow, just on principle.  She has a bad case of memetic rabies, and it shows.  It was hardly &#8220;smug,&#8221; nor was it attempting to stifle her speech in any way, since it explicitly did <i>not</i> try to tell her what she could and couldn&#8217;t say, merely that she should know the law before speaking here.  If you can&#8217;t (or won&#8217;t) parse the difference there, there really isn&#8217;t any help for you.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The luck of the Irish by Naughtius Maximus</title>
		<link>http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2010/03/18/the-luck-of-the-irish/#comment-20669</link>
		<dc:creator>Naughtius Maximus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Mar 2010 09:27:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2010/03/18/the-luck-of-the-irish/#comment-20669</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My mothers maiden name is Doherty, hmm wonder could Gates swing a route for my future kids into Harvard?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My mothers maiden name is Doherty, hmm wonder could Gates swing a route for my future kids into Harvard?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Canada is not a &#8220;free society&#8221; by Snippet</title>
		<link>http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2010/03/24/canada-is-not-a-free-society/#comment-20668</link>
		<dc:creator>Snippet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Mar 2010 08:45:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2010/03/24/canada-is-not-a-free-society/#comment-20668</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&gt;&gt; Heaven forbid that offending people should be a concern in deciding what you say.

It should

&gt;&gt; That would be an outrage, wouldn&#039;t it? I certainly hope you don&#039;t teach your children anything as savage and barbaric as wilfully not causing offence.

I don&#039;t.

I also will not teach them to PREVENT people from expressing views they (my children) disagree with.

Is this where Canada is going with this - The criminalization of offending people?

Or...the criminalizing of offending people who react violently to offense.

Here is my prediction. In order to mask the true motivation, Canada will criminalize ALL offensive opinions, or will attempt to do so.

]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>>> Heaven forbid that offending people should be a concern in deciding what you say.</p>
<p>It should</p>
<p>>> That would be an outrage, wouldn&#8217;t it? I certainly hope you don&#8217;t teach your children anything as savage and barbaric as wilfully not causing offence.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t.</p>
<p>I also will not teach them to PREVENT people from expressing views they (my children) disagree with.</p>
<p>Is this where Canada is going with this &#8211; The criminalization of offending people?</p>
<p>Or&#8230;the criminalizing of offending people who react violently to offense.</p>
<p>Here is my prediction. In order to mask the true motivation, Canada will criminalize ALL offensive opinions, or will attempt to do so.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Canada is not a &#8220;free society&#8221; by quidnunc</title>
		<link>http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2010/03/24/canada-is-not-a-free-society/#comment-20667</link>
		<dc:creator>quidnunc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Mar 2010 08:25:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2010/03/24/canada-is-not-a-free-society/#comment-20667</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[http://books.google.ca/books?id=MWHierQRGJkC&amp;dq

http://www.bsos.umd.edu/gvpt/lpbr/subpages/reviews/sumner405.htm

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=995514

Although the relevant laws aren&#039;t absolutist it&#039;s far more limited than is presumed. Said laws may create a chilling effect but it&#039;s pretty much limited to stupid race hate and other nonsense.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://books.google.ca/books?id=MWHierQRGJkC&#038;dq" rel="nofollow">http://books.google.ca/books?id=MWHierQRGJkC&#038;dq</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.bsos.umd.edu/gvpt/lpbr/subpages/reviews/sumner405.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.bsos.umd.edu/gvpt/lpbr/subpages/reviews/sumner405.htm</a></p>
<p><a href="http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=995514" rel="nofollow">http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=995514</a></p>
<p>Although the relevant laws aren&#8217;t absolutist it&#8217;s far more limited than is presumed. Said laws may create a chilling effect but it&#8217;s pretty much limited to stupid race hate and other nonsense.</p>
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