New Blog Rules

OK, I’m taking steps to avoid unnecessary confusion and ensuing chaos on this blog. From now on, if you are going to comment on this blog, the first thing you must do if to fill out this form:

I, [state your name] am a [state your biological sex] and a [state your gender] and a [state your ethno-normative affiliation]. Uh.

[Sign here]

Thank you very much, that is all.

Comments

  1. #1 Stephanie Z
    September 23, 2009

    Can we make a deal? You can have all that information if you promise to never, ever use your blog to try to shut someone up. This is about more voices, not fewer.

  2. #2 Benjamin Geiger
    September 23, 2009

    I, [state your name] am a [state your biological sex] and a [state your gender] and a [state your ethno-normative affiliation]. Uh.

    [Sign here]

    (sorry, couldn’t resist)

  3. #3 SC
    September 23, 2009

    You’re no fun at all!

  4. #4 Ranson
    September 23, 2009

    I, Ranson am a male and a, uh male(?), and a honky with more than a dash of melungeon. Uh.

    Lord Ransoinan, Esq.

  5. #5 Greg Laden
    September 23, 2009

    I said nothing about it having to be accurate. Or, FSM forbid, serious.

  6. #6 Becca/
    September 23, 2009

    I, Becca am a homo sapien subject to X chromosome inactivation, and a genderqueer/non-heteronormative/member of the GLBTA tribe, and a lizard.
    Uh,
    -The mighty lizard queen

  7. #7 Greg Laden
    September 23, 2009

    YOU are the lizard queen? I always suspected that…

  8. #8 Kate from Iowa
    September 23, 2009

    I, Kate from Iowa am a currently celibate and a girl, I think, but since I couldn’t outrun a crippled platypus, no one’s asked to look at my genitals and/or chromosomes lately, and a kind of toffee-colored person. Unless I get sunburnt. Uh.

    Kate from Iowa

  9. #9 Joshua Zelinsky
    September 23, 2009

    This looks like a joke. But I can’t quite tell. Is there some sort of blogosphere drama this is related to that I’m missing again? Or is there a serious point being made that I’m missing?

  10. #10 Aaron Golas
    September 23, 2009

    I, your name, do pledge allegiance to Hedy Lamarr…

    Er-hem.

  11. #11 Ranson
    September 23, 2009

    Drama.

  12. #12 Irene
    September 23, 2009

    JZ: Begin here and work your way downward into the abyss.

  13. #13 Joshua Zelinsky
    September 23, 2009

    Oh, and while I’m at it:

    I, Joshua Zelinsky, am biologically male and a heterosexual and a Askenazi Jew(or white, depending on which is more rhetorically useful at the moment).

    Josh Z

    Ok. I guess I’m pretty boring.

  14. #14 thom
    September 23, 2009

    I Thom am a male unstraight Hmong American. Uh.

  15. #15 kurt
    September 23, 2009

    I am Kurt W., a heteronormativewhitemale. Uh.

  16. #16 CyberLizard
    September 23, 2009

    Becca, when did I make you my queen? I have a memory like a sieve. Oh, yes, the declaration:
    I, CyberLizard, am a… oh, look, a chicken!

  17. #17 Sili
    September 23, 2009

    I, the Siliconopolitan, am a Y-chromosomophore and a man/guy/immature brat and whitewhitewhite through at least six generations, ten strictly paternal. Uh.

    - Sili

  18. #18 Mandrake
    September 23, 2009

    @10: That’s Hedley.

  19. #19 Enoch
    September 23, 2009

    How many pretty shoes can one person get in her mouth in one attempt?

  20. #20 Sondra
    September 23, 2009

    I refuse to answer on the ground that it may incriminate myself.

  21. #21 Kitty'sBitch
    September 23, 2009

    I loves teh dramas!!

    This is giving me tingling warm fuzzies.

  22. #22 Casper
    September 23, 2009

    I am a male bisexual white ghost. Uh. Boo.

  23. #23 S.D.
    September 23, 2009

    Uh. Uh. Uh. Uh. Uh.

    I find it difficult to define myself

  24. #24 Kitty'sBitch
    September 23, 2009

    First, it’s Kitty’sBitch not Kitty. Some have gotten the wrong impression from that. I chose “Kitty’sBitch” because my wife’s name is Kitty, and I totally am.
    My great grandparents were black and Cherokee, but I’m pretty much a white fella.

    I do tan beautifully.

    Greg, I’m thrilled that you joined in on the fun with this.

  25. #25 uh
    September 23, 2009

    I thought it was because you had a kat.

  26. #26 Joshua Zelinsky
    September 23, 2009

    Irene, ugh. Thanks. I should really just have learned by now that when I see a post like this I really am better off just not knowing what is going on.

  27. #27 Klatu
    September 23, 2009

    I am Klatu. I have come to destroy your miserable planet.

  28. #28 Comrade PhysioProf
    September 23, 2009

    TOGA! TOGA! TOGA!

  29. #29 Natasha
    September 23, 2009

    I’m a Transvestite. A sweet one. And I’m from Transsexual. The one on Transylvania.

  30. #30 Enoch
    September 23, 2009

    Klatu, please be quick about it. We do not deserve to exist.

  31. #31 Jason Thibeault
    September 23, 2009

    I, Jason Thibeault… like boobies.

    No, seriously, breast cancer awareness and all.

  32. #32 Chakat Firepaw
    September 23, 2009

    I, Firepaw am a hermaphrodite and a herm and a rare enough species that we don’t need those divisions. Uh.

    Chakat Firepaw

  33. #33 Stacy
    September 23, 2009

    Are we awake?
    We’re not sure. Are we black?
    Yes we are.
    Then we’re awake, but we’re very puzzled.

  34. #34 Kate
    September 23, 2009

    Darn, I should just go back to being “Dorid” … fewer expectations.

  35. #35 SC
    September 23, 2009

    From now on, if you are going to comment on this blog, the first thing you must do if to fill out this form:

    I, [state your name] am a [state your biological sex]

    Just yesterday it seemed so clear…

  36. #36 Spiv
    September 23, 2009

    I, [batman] am a [xy] and a [misogynist pig] and a [lady-chasing-WASP]. Uh.

    [Batman]

    whew, I don’t want to have to type that every time, but if it saves a few blushes then I guess it’s what we’ll have to do.

    I do, however, reccomend that we add to this disclosure list. I have seen the following background information, when unknown, cause arguments on the internet:

    religion (current, or specify if none)
    religion (past, or specify if none)
    political affiliation
    best friend’s gender, sexual preference, and ethnicity
    number of gay/black friends
    age (accuracy not required)
    braggyness of job
    financial status

  37. #37 Elizabeth
    September 23, 2009

    I, ELIZABETH am a CHICK and a DYKE and a BLACK. Uh. Big too. BIG and frightening to most. Uh.

  38. #38 Elaine
    September 23, 2009

    But will this be the last time Isis pulls the trigger because she’s on the rag? Is someone who calls herself a goddess capable of even experiencing humility? Of apologizing? Will she apologize? Someone let me know, I am not going to wait around for it.

    I would put this question on her site but my comments have been deleted there previously so I don’t want to bother.

  39. #39 Stephanie Z
    September 23, 2009

    Elaine, I haven’t seen any evidence that Isis’s treatment of people who are vocal about disagreeing with her varies at all, much less on a monthly cycle.

  40. #40 Jason Thibeault
    September 23, 2009

    Nope, my totally scientifically derived analysis of the drama emanating from the drama llama (in my handy OpenOffice Calc spreadsheet with graphing!), suggests that Isis is in character 100% of the time, indicating no correlation with any cycle, monthly or otherwise.

  41. #41 speedwell
    September 23, 2009

    I, Speedwell…

    Is this thing on?

    I, Speedwell, am a…

    [doublechecks]

    …female, and a…

    Uh, I don’t have a gender… or actually that’s not strictly correct, depending on the language we’re speaking. If it’s English, I don’t have a gender. If you mean my botanical name, genus Veronica takes a feminine declension IIRC.

    Where was I? Oh, OK. Ethno-normative affiliation. Damned if I know.

    [Googles the phrase]

    You appear to be the only hit so far. Define please? This is too important to get wrong.

  42. #42 Elaine
    September 23, 2009

    Who said it was a monthly cycle?

  43. #43 sinned34
    September 23, 2009

    I, Dennis, am a male and a heterosexual and a caucasian (very much so – I turn very red for days after being left in the sun for twenty minutes). Uh.

  44. #44 BGT
    September 23, 2009

    I, BGT, am technically an androgynous biologically asexual English automobile. My other persona is a boringly heteronormative middle aged beer bellied middle of the road (politically) hard agnostic redneck raised in the deep south. (although by fox news standards I am a flaming liberal)

  45. #45 Eric
    September 23, 2009

    Male hetero white and i am not apologizing.

  46. #46 Isaac
    September 23, 2009

    Drama Llama!!!! If the shoe fits.

  47. #47 E.W.
    September 23, 2009

    I do not believe that Isis was unaware of SC’s gender or ethnicity. The term “shut your damned pie hole” is clearly n intrsexual misogynist remark or maybe some kind of an intra tribal thing among South American Womenz. We should stay as far away from this as it is possible.

  48. #48 ENC
    September 23, 2009

    I, Evil Ninja Chipmunk am male and a lover of outboard motors and a Tamias minimus. Uh.

    ENC

  49. #49 Mike Haubrich, FCD
    September 23, 2009

    I have only two things to say:

    1. Don’t judge me, man.
    2. “Phonics Only” is a spellnig teaching method FAIL.

    SWM seeks single person of indeterminate sex and/or race.

  50. #50 Rev Matt
    September 23, 2009

    The first thing that came to my mind was the scene in Blazing Saddles when Hedley is leading them in the oath “I, your name”…

    Which I suppose identifies me as likely to be a white male.

  51. #51 Alice
    September 23, 2009

    Wow, this is big. Now I can stalk everyone so much more effectively

  52. #52 The MadPanda
    September 23, 2009

    I’ve only encountered the drama and the fallout thanks you you and PZ, so I am functionally clueless as to the reasons for this adjustment. But since you insist…

    I comma square bracket The MadPanda square bracket am a square bracket male square bracket parenthesis with a hyperactive inner child and an equally active anima close parenthesis and a square bracket still male comma thanks for repeating the question square bracket and a square bracket ailurus fulgens sapiens square bracket. Duh.

    [Sign here]

    Now, where’s my bamboo biscotti?

    The MadPanda, FCD

  53. #53 iHi
    September 23, 2009

    Its about time she stepped in her own shit. (and got noticed for it)

  54. #54 Lisa A
    September 23, 2009

    This took too long to figure out. I am not sure it was worth it. Why are u bloggers even on the same domain?

  55. #55 Lisa A
    September 23, 2009

    Oh, sorry. I am Lisa, I am a bi-curious Scandinavian princess.

  56. #56 Sondra
    September 23, 2009

    If the shoe fits.

    Hahahahah!!!

  57. #57 Lisa A
    September 23, 2009

    Uh

  58. #58 Roadtripper
    September 23, 2009

    I, Roadtripper, am biologically male, a totally hetero-sexual d00d, and a member of the apparently over-privileged race known to most people as “white”, whatever the fuck that means.

    Uh.

    Rt

    You’re welcome. /eye-roll

  59. #59 Spidy
    September 23, 2009

    Unlurking

    I am an eight eyed tiny male interested in suicidal copulation with any female of same species. Uh.

    Relurking

  60. #60 Comrade PhysioProf
    September 23, 2009

    Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!

  61. #61 The MadPanda
    September 23, 2009

    *facepalm*

    That’s, uh, ‘thanks to you and PZ’, not ‘thanks you you’. This is what I get for trying to write a post whilst my Cub runneth amok.

    The MadPanda, FCD

  62. #62 Rich Wilson
    September 23, 2009

    I, Rich Wilson, am a mongrel.

    http://yarchive.net/risks/mongrel.html

  63. #63 David Lee
    September 23, 2009

    I, David Lee, say we all are from Africa and we shouldn’t even wear shoes, much less comment on blogs in case we make a category 1 error.

  64. #64 Flying Trilobite
    September 23, 2009

    I, Flying Trilobite am a (let me unroll and check), uh, straight male and a deformed extinct arthropod. Uh.

    [Ichnological traces]

  65. #65 Uh
    September 23, 2009

    Over the top asshatery. If that is your modus operendus you will eventually fall victim to your own behavior. I see very little sincere support being proffered on Isis’ behalf on her very own blog. The bottom line is that while many find her amusing few like her or respect her or at least are friend enough to her to step up and say to leave her alone. Nobody in fact is doing that. Where are her supposed allies? Does she have allies? If you are an irrational screaming bitch all the time even those who tend to agree with what you are screaming about will step aside when something like this happens You can not defend the indefensible.

    Let this be a lesson to us all. Well, you all. I already knew this.

  66. #66 jw
    September 23, 2009

    This crap by Isis is, really, on the level of “should she be a scienceblogger” any more. If this was the real world she’d resign. Or at least be asked to.

  67. #67 becca
    September 23, 2009

    @Greg Laden- shhhh. Don’t tell too many people, I try to avoid scaring the natives.

    @cyberlizard, actually Jim Morrison appointed me such. But I can always use a loyal subject if you would like to move to my Queendom.

    for Spiv
    The lizard queen is:
    A secular Jew/former Dweaslist.
    A pinko-feminist-communist Yippie.
    Ta has…
    a best friend who is an XX type ambisextrous person with significant French ancestry.
    6/70 Facebook friends known to be nonheteronormative; 3/70 known to have african ancestry (14/70 visibly or self-identified non-beige types)
    Ta is…
    way too young to have spent this many years as a grad student
    The braggyness of the lizard queen’s job is…
    nonexistent (see previous question), except for the inverse snobbery “omg my job/indentured servitude sucks” type of bragging
    Her salary is…
    see previous question

    Now will everyone stop making incorrect assumptions about me?!!!

  68. #68 A former Isis peep
    September 23, 2009

    Step 1: Privileged FAIP white guilt-ridden female decides to become champeen of the brown people and the wimenz.

    Step 2: PFAIP hides identity behind IYF obnoxious ancient Egyptian persona.

    Step 3: Ancient Egyptian Persona (AEP) over period of time alienates all possible allies by attacking them or embarrassing herself in front of them except except one who is too tied up in his own stupid persona (not ancient Egyption tho) to notice.

    Step 4: AEP never cared about accuracy or honesty or reality so accidentally disses unknown number of brown and/or female allies. Most are pseudos commenting on her blog and over time have been told to shut up one too many times and have wandered off for more interesting and less one dimensionally stupid pastures.

    Step 5: AEP misinterprets missive of fellow brown womenz person ally, does not give second look, does not give second thought, barges in two-tits first with horribly obnoxious post screaming name of commenter in title so all can see.

    Step 6: See step 1. Oh never mind, all chance of being Teh Champeen obviated by OT unprofessional and obnoxious behavior.

    Isis, free advice: Don’t ever reveal your identity. Honestly, it would hurt your career. You are not trustworthy.

  69. #69 D. C. Sessions
    September 23, 2009

    Now will everyone stop making incorrect assumptions about me?!!!

    If you really want me to, all right. But it’s so much fun!

  70. #70 the real meme
    September 23, 2009

    I’m with Spiv @ 36, but maybe also an indicator of Political Correctness would help too? As in 1 being Thinks Dick Cheney is a good guy and 10 being I personally slurp on PZ Meyers blognuts and would ‘do’ Zuska?

  71. #71 Jason Thibeault
    September 23, 2009

    Becca: I heart the word “ambisextrous”. Reminds me of Captain Jack Harkness.

  72. #72 Cath@VWXYNot?
    September 23, 2009

    I, Cath, am a straight female with a Scottish tan* that betrays my Celtic ancestry. Uh.

    *In summer, I turn from blue to white.

  73. #73 anon
    September 23, 2009

    The level of thinking on that blog is basically this.

    1. If you disagree with Isis you are white and or a d00d. (white is anything that isn’t Isis approved shades of brown)

    2. Therefore you are wrong.

    This argument is great because yesterday when it became apparent that SC was not a white d00d I wondered how Isis could wriggle out of being a total spazz. She might actually have to have a grown-ups conversation, I thought. Might be interesting? But instead she simply reclassified SC as a white d00d.

    I think we should reclassify Isis as a non-scientist and ignore all protestations to the contrary. She has never betrayed a professional standard of scientific thinking in any discussion, even the science ones. So she’s not a scientist at an MRU and therefore she’s wrong about everything. This is simply Isis logic reapplied- one cane ignore outgroup statements purely on the basis of outgroup membership and not the content of the argument. If you can’t/won’t deal with the argument then reassign somebody’s gender or ethnicity to north american white man. Ignore all evidence to the contrary. Act like an asshat.

    BREAKING NEWS: Oh wait, SC is white?! Back to step 1 and then 2. Resume normal ill-non-communication.

  74. #74 Treppenwitz
    September 23, 2009

    Where are her supposed allies? Does she have allies?

    Doesn’t Physioprof tend to white-knight for Isis? Is he not doing so in this case?

  75. #75 Alex
    September 23, 2009
  76. #76 Alex
    September 23, 2009

    Oh and:

    I, Alex am a male and a male and a white British/English [though not in a Daily Mail/British National Party kind of way]. Uh.

    *does squiggle*

  77. #77 Isabel
    September 23, 2009

    “arguments on the internet:

    religion (current, or specify if none)
    religion (past, or specify if none)
    political affiliation
    best friend’s gender, sexual preference, and ethnicity
    number of gay/black friends
    age (accuracy not required)
    braggyness of job
    financial status
    …”

    glad someone finally added the last one, but I think socio-economic class of origin would be more useful background information. I was surprised so few science and academic bloggers participated in the privilege meme that circulated a few months ago. I suspect a certain socioeconomic class is over-represented here, and perhaps a religion, which could be an unacknowledged element in some conflicts:)

    Isabel is a working class Catholic ‘ethnic white’ in the process of selling her soul and transitioning to middle-class American white female.

  78. #78 Alex
    September 23, 2009

    I am a bi-curious Scandinavian princess

    Fuck this blog war, why isn’t that statement being more noticed instead?

    (aware that my interest in such a statement is perhaps not the best thing to do considering this is a blog war which is highly charged with issues of race, gender, sexuality and culture without the kind of Western sexism that my interest in said statement may resemble, but I’m trying to be ironic).

  79. #79 Greg Laden
    September 23, 2009

    My goodness. I go off to the gym then out to a baby class and I come back and find out that all you people are dissing my Blog Sister Isis.

    Hey, anybody could have made the mistake she did. I’m certain that in time we’ll hear an appropriate apology, and I must say, that Salty Current has exhibited an admirable degree of professionalism, grace, and aplomb throughout this whole incident.

  80. #80 Elaine
    September 24, 2009

    A “baby class”? Is that a tiny class that will grow up eventually, or a class where all the students are babies?

  81. #81 luna1580
    September 24, 2009

    i, luna1580, a biologically XX, mentally semi-gender-queer person usually seeking sex with human males, who was born with a white-ish skin-tone, have this to add:

    every time isis comments about the evils of “privilege” -out in the world or here w/her fellow science bloggers- she makes gross assumptions about the sex, color, economic status, etc. of the very people she is accusing of viewing minority-group individuals through a warped lens of privilege and generalized stereotypes. it’s a ridiculously un-self-aware thing to do, let alone do consistently.

    it is totally correct that members of minority groups are often not taken on the merit of their work and ideas in the way a member of the majority group/group in power would be, but yelling “privilege! you’re obviously a blind and thoughtless cockdoucheweaslemonkey who couldn’t and wouldn’t empathize w/minority struggles!” and leaving it at that doesn’t advance the conversation much…

    -and in this post’s comment stream isis argued with me that no internet comment is truly anonymous, so “privilege” is always in play, even on the intertubes….

    http://scienceblogs.com/isisthescientist/2009/08/how_to_argue.php

    i just end up feeling that she enjoys yelling about how the “straight white male” world dumps on her, while doing little to address that idea with anything other than unproductive trading of insults. (of course she would say this very comment is an attempt at derailing and ignore it…, which is why i’m not bothering to post it on her blog, having covered that ground w/her.)

    and she seems not to appreciate that atheists continually battle the “privilege” of the religious of a christian persuasion in USA societal interactions in all her rants against “privilege”…… convenient for her to forget her own “privileged” status in that regard isn’t it? fair is fair, afterall.

  82. #82 Irene
    September 24, 2009

    luna1580: My son goes attends a grade school with posters in the hallways describing, and warning against, the behavior you are describing here. They call it “being a bully”

    Bullies define the playing field, make the rules, punish those who do not acquiesce. Isis is an inadequate bully who can not make it on her own. In her argument with you last month she refers you again and again to Drug Monkey’s post because she can’t articulate the argument herself . She makes sloppy references to the role of civility that she can’t explain on her own. The main thing she is able to do is to find funny photographs and put captions on them and scream from her headlines. That is all mildly entertaining, but not especially challenging.

    Bullies are often not the sharpest. That is why the bullying workes better for them. Take pity.

  83. #83 Jason Fox
    September 24, 2009

    I confused as to why this is requested, but nevertheless:
    I, Jason Fox am a straight, biological male of the Caucasian non-existent race. Uh. (Uh is very important here) I also hold a BA in anthropology, FYI.
    Jason Fox

  84. #84 Snoof
    September 24, 2009

    I, Snoof, am an emergent digital intelligence in a diamondoid nanoswarm-based substrate, originating in a habitat on the equator of a Dyson swarm around a white dwarf star on the outer rim of the Andromeda galaxy.

    Which, coincidentally, makes me an illegal alien.

  85. #85 José
    September 24, 2009

    Jason,
    Of course you’re confused. All you privileged anthropologists have no idea what it’s like going through life having everyone look at you funny because you’re a non-anthropologist.

  86. #86 luna1580
    September 24, 2009

    Irene-

    thanks for showing it in that light.

    in the other isis post, i loved how she continued to direct me over to drugmonkey after i told her i’d read it and was awaiting its follow-up (for DM’s own thoughts), but never explained her own thoughts on DM’s post.

    sigh. yes, shoes can be nice. being a woman recognized as a scientist (because of her work, not her gender) is much nicer. but what is isis really adding to scienceblogs? i’ve read her enough to guess that we are within 5-years of the same age, yet i feel she writes in a style that is either a mark of true immaturity or a desperate attempt to be “hip”, and ultimately doesn’t talk much about actual science in her blog.

    it’s her blog and she should write it in any way that pleases her, but what about its content makes it a “scienceblog”?

    and to all: yes, i know< i am free to take my irritation and just never read her again, thank-you. but she herself seems to love hooking other science bloggers into her “angst?” “pseudo-neofeminism?” “victim complex?” “attention-seeking?” whatever. so it becomes harder to ignore her presence in this blog community.

  87. #87 SC
    September 24, 2009

    dOOd,

    http://saltycurrent.blogspot.com/2009/09/i-heart-pz-myers-and-greg-laden.html

    BTW, I’ve added you to my blogroll. There was an opening after I deleted Comrade Sockpup…er, Physioprof.
    :)

  88. #88 Rorschach
    September 24, 2009

    Oh no, SC has discovered Greg’s blog…..Can’t a guy have his peace somewhere??? :D

  89. #89 Neuroskeptic
    September 24, 2009

    I, Neuroskeptic, am a hole in a pie.

  90. #90 Mandrake
    September 24, 2009

    OT: Are d00d and dOOd just blog spellings for dude, or do they actually mean or imply something else?

  91. #91 Stephanie Z
    September 24, 2009

    Mandrake, same basic thing, although d00d is 1337 (leet or elite) speak, which came from gamers. So depending on how one feels about gamers (enjoying the fun or condescending to the “young and frivolous”), it can contain other connotations. There are so many contradictory possibilities regarding those connotations, though, that there’s not much point in trying to figure out which people mean. Unless you’re looking for a reason to invalidate their opinions, of course.

  92. #92 Jason Thibeault
    September 24, 2009

    I’ve always read “d00d” as condescending, and as both a male and a gamer, it cuts pretty deep. But because of the former, I’m not allowed to be irritated due to my inherent privilege.

  93. #93 Mandrake
    September 24, 2009

    @Stepanie Z: Thanks! Although I don’t know what 1331, leet, or elite are. I assume though, that the same explanation somehow also relates to w00t. Or not.

  94. #94 KristinMH
    September 24, 2009

    #68 – What’s a FAIP? Googling reveals “Foundation for Aquatic Injury Prevention” and “First Assignment Instructor Pilot”, but neither of these seem to meet the case.

  95. #95 Elaine
    September 24, 2009

    FAIP = “far as I pee”

  96. #96 skeptifem
    September 24, 2009

    all the dudes getting mad about being referred to as dudes- the word ‘woman’ is literally an insult. “Don’t be such a woman” is one example of many that I am sure you have heard, this goes for ‘female’ as well. Imagine the nicest way to refer to you was something like that Girl, chick, lady, honey, sweetheart, etc are the alternatives and are shittier, but that does not make the word “woman” a non insult in dudenation.

  97. #97 Jason Thibeault
    September 24, 2009

    Do not by any stretch of the imagination think that I attempt to denigrate women by saying an outright attempt to insult men still isn’t cool. There really are men out there that understand they’re in the position of privilege, and don’t much like the situation but deal with it, trying not to chafe the already raw spots that women have over the whole issue.

    Please don’t take away my ability to identify you as a woman, though — at least not without providing something I CAN call you. I don’t know what else to call you that won’t be considered even more horrible.

  98. #98 Comrade PhysioProf
    September 24, 2009

    Do you mind if we dance with your dates?

  99. #99 Elaine
    September 24, 2009

    Why is CPP channeling John Beluchi? This could explain some things.

  100. #100 Jason Thibeault
    September 24, 2009

    Who, me, CPP? Unless you’re quoting something, I’ll assume you’re asking seriously. In my world, you ask the person I’m on the date with, for the dance, not me. I reserve the right to tell her that if she dances with someone else, I might not consider date 2 — but it’s her choice, not mine.

  101. #101 ERV
    September 24, 2009

    Laden– I’m certain that in time we’ll hear an appropriate apology…
    Right. Like she apologized to you. Like she apologized to me. Like she apologized to Lynch. Like she apologized to Wilkins. No, yeah, Im sure she totally going to be apologizing to SC.

    A former Isis peep– Isis, free advice: Don’t ever reveal your identity. Honestly, it would hurt your career. You are not trustworthy.
    If she was out, she would have gotten some free advice from my boss, and possibly my department head, for her unprofessional behavior towards me. But what do they know about how mentors should approach disagreements with students– theyre clueless white d00ds.

  102. #102 José
    September 24, 2009

    Just about anything is an insult if you put “Don’t be such a” in front of it.

    Don’t be such a tomato.

    Don’t be such a llama.

    Don’t be such a Laden.

  103. #103 Stephanie Z
    September 24, 2009

    Oh, CPP’s just doing his part to keep this post in Sb’s “Most Active.”

  104. #104 Jason Thibeault
    September 24, 2009

    José: I like llamas. Not drama llamas mind you, but llamas. How dare you denigrate llamas that way, treating their name like a pejorative?!

  105. #105 Elaine
    September 24, 2009

    Jason: Don’t be such an alpaca.

  106. #106 Comrade PhysioProf
    September 24, 2009

    People on ‘ludes should not drive.

  107. #107 SC
    September 24, 2009

    If you only gnu how offended I am by these slurs. You’re all beastly.

    Like she apologized to Lynch. Like she apologized to Wilkins.

    Hmm? Anyone have a link to those episodes?

    Oh, CPP’s just doing his part to keep this post in Sb’s “Most Active.”

    You’d think he’d want this to fade into obscurity as quickly as possible.

  108. #108 D. C. Sessions
    September 24, 2009

    I’m certain that in time we’ll hear an appropriate apology

    Damn it, Greg, that was good coffee.

  109. #109 José
    September 24, 2009

    I’m glad no one has a problem with “Don’t be such a Laden.”

  110. #110 Comrade PhysioProf
    September 24, 2009

    You’d think he’d want this to fade into obscurity as quickly as possible.

    Are you really this clueless about why bloggers do what they do? Although it appears that you engage the blogosphere to salve your ego, seek reinforcement of your preconceived notions, and suck up to those you perceive as having “influence”, this is not necessarily what motivates everyone.

    Your model of the blogosphere as a seventh grade classroom is quite incomplete, as I’m sure Greg can explain to you in more detail.

  111. #111 sdh
    September 24, 2009

    I’m always fascinated when incredibly intelligent people behave like idiots. It happens more often than is comfortable, and when it does happen it is like watching a car crash in slow motion.

    Maybe my fascination derives from the same source which beams with joy whenever I hear hockey players bang into the boards?

    Anyway I have followed the relevant links and have seen enough to realize that Dr. Isis is both a repeat offender and unlikely to learn from her mistakes. How very dull. If anything, by making the same mistake over and over, it suggests an incapacity to learn, which undermines the presumption of intelligence.

    I, sdh (my initials), am a male male and am nominally a WASP. I have wasted far too much time on this interweb squabble, but would be willing to talk about it over dinner or coffee with a person of the opposite gender… because that is the type of guy I am.

  112. #112 D. C. Sessions
    September 24, 2009

    the word ‘woman’ is literally an insult.

    To exactly the degree that the parties involved object to people with two X chromosomes (and a few others who resemble them.)

    Change terminology all you like, misogynists won’t change their minds because the label changed, and they’ll still treat the new appellation as an insult because they consider any association with the estrogen-enabled to be insulting.

    And for those of us who respect those same Estrogen-Americans, the name — whichever used — has never been an insult to begin with.

  113. #113 SC
    September 24, 2009

    Are you really this clueless about why bloggers do what they do? Although it appears that you engage the blogosphere to salve your ego, seek reinforcement of your preconceived notions, and suck up to those you perceive as having “influence”, this is not necessarily what motivates everyone.

    Your model of the blogosphere as a seventh grade classroom is quite incomplete, as I’m sure Greg can explain to you in more detail.

    Physioprof, perhaps the only unamusing aspect of this whole incident has been seeing your behavior. I liked your blog, and have often linked to it and/or quoted you over at Pharyngula. You appear to have a blind spot when it comes to your friend that leads you at times to act in a ludicrous manner. It’s a problem.

    This post of yours only makes sense as a bizarre exercise in projection. Anyway, if you’re suggesting that any publicity is good publicity, I would have to disagree. Isis has come out of this (as, apparently, other similar episodes in the past) looking very bad – having alienated people and lost credibility. I’m not sure how you could continue not to see this. I read several blogs regularly, and all of those bloggers are capable of expressing themselves clearly (including ranting when appropriate) and responding to criticism in a way that doesn’t make them appear unhinged. If Isis’ purpose in blogging is to make an ass of herself and embarrass Sb (and feminists), she’s doing a bang-up job.

  114. #114 Elizabeth
    September 24, 2009

    I get it.

    Comrade PhysioProf is trying to show the lady that Grego is a misogynist, in order to break up what he views as a coalition building between them (which must be real because SC and GL are not screaming at each other, behavior that CPP can not relate to). This done by subtly (or not so) noting the time Grego mentioned something about Isis the Crisis acting in an immature high school child, and Isis misinterpreting that as something other than a basic insult (with one of her famous Open Letters).

    That was in the day when it still seemed like a good idea for PhsyioProf and Isis to mess with Greg to get links traffic to their blogs.

    Since then it is overwhelmingly clear Isis the Crisis does indeed act, day to day, like some stoned out would be cheerleader, and most of her friends have ditched her just like they always did back in high school (remember?), and the only thing left for her to blog for are the sock puppets on her own site. Comrade PhysioProf understands this and tries to stay away from the controversy in order to protect the tiny bit that remains of his own reputation, but as the day goes by and he dips more and more into the Mother Fucking Jameson(tm) he can’t help himself.

    Comrade PhysioProf: Can you turn your attention for a moment to Isis the Crisis herself, and scream loudly and publicly at her that she must apologize for her stupid transgression? Or are you going to admit that your crusades are all about social relations and not about the real causes you claim to represent? Are you going to be true to your oft screamed philosophy or are you going to demonstrate you are nothing other than a cliquish d00dly d00d who maybe wants to get in with the ladies so he can get a little something if and when the opportunity arises?

  115. #115 Jason Thibeault
    September 24, 2009

    Estrogen-Americans

    D.C., it was only an act of sheer will that saved my laptop from a dousing of coffee. And I’m talking Tim Hortons coffee, so it would have definitely been fatal.

    Regardless, thank you!

  116. #116 D. C. Sessions
    September 24, 2009

    Jason, thank you. That’s the nicest thing anyone has said to me all day.

  117. #117 Cath@VWXYNot?
    September 24, 2009

    @ERV (#101): when I had my own run-in with Isis, a couple of people emailed me off-blog to see if I was OK (hell yeah! It was hilarious!), and one person asked me if I was worried that she might try to make trouble for me in my career, given that I use my real name. I had to laugh:

    option a) my boss gets an email from someone called “Dr Isis, the domestic and laboratory goddess” about shenanigans on a blog, and barely has time to roll his eyes before hitting “delete”.

    option b) Isis has to reveal her true identity.

    Yeah. I wasn’t exactly worried… not that I believe any blogger would want to do such a thing in the first place.

  118. #118 Irene
    September 24, 2009

    The phrase “bully” keeps coming again and again to mind.

  119. #119 Greg Laden
    September 24, 2009

    ERV[101] Maybe, but this time I think is different. You were a lost cause (I assume), I’m just a “dooodly dood” (or so I hear). Lynch and Wilkins … well, I guess they did kinda leave, but I’m not so sure why.

    Anyway, what I’m trying to say is that a situation like this will surely lead to some introspection and reorientation, not just by Isis but by everyone messing around in this crazy, zany place we call the blogosphere. There certainly seems to be some reorientation by many of the people who read the blogs.

  120. #120 Elaine
    September 24, 2009

    Don’t hold your breath!

  121. #121 SC
    September 24, 2009

    If Isis’ purpose in blogging is to make an ass of herself and embarrass Sb (and feminists), she’s doing a bang-up job.

    I’d like to retract this, with apologies to Dr. Isis. I haven’t read enough of her blog to make such a broad assertion.* I also trust Carlie’s opinion, so if she says Isis offers insights from time to time then I believe it.

    *Nor do I have any interest in it now.

  122. #122 Stephanie Z
    September 24, 2009

    Greg, I think there’s been reorientation every time one of these incidents has occurred. I don’t know whether it’s because a pattern was being established or whether it’s just easier to see the behavior when it’s aimed at you or someone near you. At the very least, more people seem to have been adopting the “was a little girl and she had a little curl” opinion (feel free to come up with a non-gendered example, but that’s been mine since I was tiny) over time.

    Although the slipping in a puddle of semen was pretty special. So was coopting Samia’s argument. And the whole being demonstrably and blatantly wrong thing. So who knows, maybe this will be different.

  123. #123 Jason Thibeault
    September 24, 2009

    I hate to say that this drama holds some measure of fascination for me, in the train wreck sense. I wouldn’t have made an effort to try to catch up when I first started hanging out around these parts otherwise. Every time Isis comes up with some new outrage, it’s almost like a game to see how far her character is willing to go this time. The semen demotivator poster was so far over the top, as followed up by the tone-deafness about “brown people”, that I honestly suspected for a moment that maybe, just maybe, Isis is a poe.

    Yeah, I said it. We all know Isis is a character (or caricature), played by a real person with real motivations, and I’ve always assumed these motivations were honest. For at least one brief second, my poe meter pegged, which is especially unusual in that it has nothing to do with religion. But, to what end? What possible purpose could she serve as a poe, except to intentionally undermine feminism, Scienceblogs, maybe women in science??

  124. #124 DD
    September 24, 2009

    I’m human, not sure about you.

  125. #125 Paul
    September 24, 2009

    What possible purpose could she serve as a poe, except to intentionally undermine feminism, Scienceblogs, maybe women in science??

    Why does there need to be an except? She is Catholic. They’re not big on feminism or women in the workplace. Perhaps a double agent from the Vatican?

  126. #126 Stephanie Z
    September 24, 2009

    You don’t need to be a Poe to screw things up. We bloggers are at least a bit narcissistic just by the nature of the game. That gives competing interests in getting attention and, well, anything else. It’s not hard to cross the line sometimes, particularly if you’ve pushed away (or refused to understand) restraining influences.

  127. #127 Irene
    September 24, 2009

    I have a different theory. Isis the Crisis is an immature thoughtless brat mainly concerned with bringing lurid attention to herself.

    That which she writes about the issues she claims important to her, it is vapid. Her words belie no depth of thought, only parroting what others say (as pointed out above) There is nothing there. (This is not to say she has no feelings on these issues, just no history of thought about them, or current thoughts in some instances).

    Her habit of calling out commenters is sadistic. If you read the commenters that seem to like her they read as poorly constructed sock puppets, or masochistic mud lovers.

    She is not a poe-poser, she is not a pope-lover. Nothing that complicated. She is nothing more, nothing less, than an 11th grader with a blog.

    My guess: She is not even hot.

  128. #128 John S. Wilkins
    September 24, 2009

    I am a white male straight 400lb fucking gorilla. And I can hear dog whistles very well indeed.

  129. #129 Greg Laden
    September 24, 2009

    John, you forgot to say “uh”

  130. #130 John S. Wilkins
    September 24, 2009

    Uh, d00d, sorry.

  131. #131 Ian
    September 24, 2009

    I am a biologically male, male gendered, mixed-race, half-white/half German, Indo-Trinidadian of Indian Muslim (allegedly Pathan), Hindu Indian (presumably both North Indian and South Indian), Saxon and Frisian ancestry (with perhaps a drop of Romanian or Hungarian ancestry back in the 1700s).

  132. #132 omar
    September 24, 2009

    Am I too late? I am Omar, my sex and gender are private, and I am ethnoabnormative.

  133. #133 ERV
    September 24, 2009

    Shorter Ian: Isis would call me a tan white d00d.
    :P

  134. #134 becca
    September 25, 2009

    Hey Jason, you’re making booby fans, heterosexuals, biological males, individuals of the Caucasian non-existent race, anthropologists, gamers and (most importantly!) llama fans look bad!
    As a llama fan, I am deeply annoyed.
    (I had a whole nice rant at SC about how calling out one ‘badly behaving’ member of a group as embarrassing to the whole group is usually a tool of oppression… but since she retracted that statement [albeit for another reason], I had to repackage it somehow!)

    Also, ambisextrous is full of win. Though I can’t take credit, I’m pretty sure it’s actually used in one of the major sex studies (Master’s and Johnson?). I was reminded of it reading Bonk.

    @D. C. – Thank you for writing #112, so I didn’t have to think of how to phrase it. (also, you may feel free to continue to make incorrect assumptions about me. But *just you*. Stephanie makes too many correct ones, and the rest of you folks is crazy)

  135. #135 Rorschach
    September 25, 2009

    skeptifem@ 96,

    the word ‘woman’ is literally an insult

    There are quite a few gems on this thread,not withstanding CPP’s rants, but this kind of takes the cake hahahaha, this could well be the stupidest statement I have ever heard.

  136. #136 Jason Thibeult
    September 25, 2009

    Becca, that’s totally unfair. I was only an Anthropology MINOR.

    You’re absolutely right, oppressors regularly call out vocal members of the minority as making the rest look bad. In fact, by being a white male, with inherent privilege coming out the bung-hole*, I’m deprived of the privilege of telling someone when they’re behaving badly and that they should stop because they’re unfairly coloring the perceptions of third parties. I’m willing to own that I’ve stepped out of line by intentionally picking the boobie-boosting first post to pour gasoline on a fire that Isis started at her own blog (stating that men who talk about breast cancer awareness are just doing it to “keep hot wimmenz bangable”). And that I’m a d00dly d00d, and all that ridiculousness.

    At a certain point, though, aren’t we all going to be paralyzed by fear of making others uncomfortable? I’d rather do the making-people-uncomfortable thing, be uncomfortable myself in the process, and hope that people are capable of more introspection in general.

    *(it was Talk Like a Pirate Day on Sunday, and I still have a cask of grog left over.)

  137. #137 Paul W.
    September 25, 2009

    I, Paul W., am a truly privileged biologically male hetero guy and a visually apparent member of the nonexistent Caucasian race.

    My wife is none of the above, though, so the topic of Isis’s original rant is fairly close to my heart. In most contexts we’re in together, she’s the only person there of her nonexistent but obvious race; in some others, such as certain parties and her family’s reunions, I’m the only person of mine. (I was once described by a relative-in-law as “okay for a Caucasian fellow.” I like to pretend that meant “pretty fly for a white guy.”)

    Uh.

    I’d missed the hoo-ha with Isis ripping Samia a new orifice for, of all things, being vague about exactly who she was or wasn’t criticizing and exactly why, and saying she had a responsibility to do so.

    Given Isis and her fans’ denial that she has any such obligation to be clear—it’s her fucking blog, love it or leave it—the irony is palpable. Palpitating even.

    I did vaguely recall something she said about Ethan a few weeks ago, though, so I looked it up:

    I don’t understand why Ethan would even be writing a scienceblog if he has no interest in educating people about what he’s passionate about or to provide the convincing/damning evidence that demonstrates his argument.

    I mean, am I not allowed to ask questions?

    Given her and her fans insistence on her right to talk past people, her lack of obligation to clarify when asked a civil question, and the validity of her blog as just a “place to vent” without being bothered by outsiders, the irony is palpitating.

    What the fuck is she doing on Science Blogs if she’s going to ridicule SC for requesting that she explain herself?

    There may be validity to insider blogs for people to vent about outsiders with no obligation of openness or fairness, but I hardly think ScienceBlogs is the place for it.

    Physiologist, heal thyself.

  138. #138 Paul W.
    September 25, 2009

    Jason:

    Yeah, I said it. We all know Isis is a character (or caricature), played by a real person with real motivations, and I’ve always assumed these motivations were honest.

    Look at her selective application of rules and obligations in discourse. (The bottom line is that they’re for other people.)

    Then look at her ha-ha-only-serious smug condescension.

    It all makes sense if you imagine that Isis is only pretending to be pretending that she’s a shallow narcissist.

    I’m not saying it’s true, but at least it makes more sense than her being a Poe.

    BTW, for what it’s worth, I do get and sorta agree with many of the things Isis says, for example that often the “rules of civil discourse” are often applied selectively by those with the power to enforce them.

    That doesn’t make it much prettier when she inverts the power relations on her blog, so that the global outgroup is the local ingroup and she can fuck over people who allegedly “don’t get it,” using that as an excuse for treating them like shit and evading perfectly good questions.

  139. #139 SC
    September 25, 2009

    (I had a whole nice rant at SC about how calling out one ‘badly behaving’ member of a group as embarrassing to the whole group is usually a tool of oppression… but since she retracted that statement [albeit for another reason], I had to repackage it somehow!)

    OK, I’ve given this some thought. Kind of meh on the whole thing. I face “you people give atheists a bad name” pretty much daily on Pharyngula. It’s especially silly in that case since atheism is the lack of belief and not a shared belief. However, insofar as I’m looking at atheism/skepticism as a movement, I do feel comfortable citing people – other outspoken atheists – as embarrassing (and of course others are perfectly free to say the same about me). I mean, I can’t think of any movement I’ve been part of in which these criticisms haven’t formed a part. I’m equally OK doing so as a feminist (in this case, as I noted in my retraction, I really didn’t have the basis for such a strong statement). Both of these are chosen identities – I doubt I’ve said someone “gives us women a bad name.”

    Well, Said, Paul W., as always.

    I’d missed the hoo-ha with Isis ripping Samia a new orifice for, of all things, being vague about exactly who she was or wasn’t criticizing and exactly why, and saying she had a responsibility to do so.

    Given Isis and her fans’ denial that she has any such obligation to be clear—it’s her fucking blog, love it or leave it—the irony is palpable. Palpitating even.

    I did vaguely recall something she said about Ethan a few weeks ago, though, so I looked it up:…

    Oh, thank you. I’ve now read that thread. Didn’t think it was possible for this to be any funnier.

    Isis:

    And the call to civility is a frequently used tactic to derail. Which groups are more frequently called to civility?

    In my recent experience, atheists. Mostly by Catholics. In fact, funnily enough I made this exact argument about demands for civility as a manner of silencing at some length last year on a Crackergate thread at Mixing Memory.

    luna1580′s comments on the the “How to Argue” thread were so wonderfully prescient:

    i didn’t claim that no one will ever make an (often faulty) assumption about who you are in off-line life, in fact i specifically mentioned at least twice that people often assume wrongly about the poster’s gender.

    I’m glad Isis didn’t pay attention, as the ensuing hilarity would have been avoided.

    If you don’t rely on reason and evidence (rhetoric and insults optional, and to me desirable) in blog arguments, you have nothing to fall back on when your ad homs don’t apply. “You’re wrong and don’t get it because you aren’t a member of X group and haven’t had these experiences, so I don’t need to respond to you!” “Um, yes, I am, and I have.” ?…

  140. #140 becca
    September 25, 2009

    @Jason- I don’t see why you can’t just tell people who are behaving badly to straighten up and fly right because they should exhibit self control. Why does group affiliation need enter into it?
    At the least, I demand an equal number of comments commending people behaving well. You can start by telling me how awesome I make lizards look. :-P

  141. #141 SC
    September 25, 2009

    Well, Said, Paul W., as always.

    No idea what happened there. :)

  142. #142 SimonG
    September 25, 2009

    I’m an XY H. sap, (to the best of my knowledge) and statistically normal in every way, although prone to corrosion. (It’s possible that the population may not be entirely representative.)

    Uh.

  143. #143 Stephanie Z
    September 25, 2009

    Anybody else getting a mental picture of Lord Flashheart whenever someone includes the “Uh”?

  144. #144 Greg Laden
    September 25, 2009

    Stephanie, can you suggest a particular YouTube clip?

  145. #145 Stephanie Z
    September 25, 2009

    Hmm. I have the DVDs so I haven’t looked at YouTube (and can’t from here). Try the search combo Blackadder and Flashheart. You’re looking for the Elizabethan series, not the WWI series. Then it’s pretty iconic for the character.

  146. #146 Greg Laden
    September 25, 2009

    BTW, it does actually come from some place inside my head.

  147. #147 Stephanie Z
    September 25, 2009

    Which is, I’m sure, very different from the place it touches in my warped little psyche. Care to share?

  148. #148 Greg Laden
    September 25, 2009

    Two places, but mostly this is a teacher I know imitating high school boys explaining stuff (like, why are you doing what you are not supposed to be doing) to said teacher.

  149. #149 Stephanie Z
    September 25, 2009

    Mine’s a wee bit more emphatic.

  150. #150 SC
    September 25, 2009

  151. #151 JohnV
    September 25, 2009

    What in the world did I just watch for 5 minutes?

  152. #152 Jason Thibeault
    September 25, 2009

    Becca: Rightly or wrongly, I sort of see people who advocate for a particular group, as being emissaries for that group. I suspect most people do as well. If a person speaks in that role, for instance Dawkins speaking as an advocate for atheism, and they say something ridiculous and indefensible, like that the holocaust never happened, then not only do the other atheists who are members of that group have the right to be embarrassed, but they also get to call Dawkins out on being such an embarrassment (in politics, often referred to as “throwing X under the bus”). You know the “other side” is going to point out the foibles of that emissary and do what they can to ensure the fallout damages the entire cause.

    So, yes, bringing the group into it isn’t fair, but when you’re acting in defense of feminism and what you’re doing is ultimately indefensible (equivalent to “crying wolf”), then you’re providing ammunition to the proper misogynists who will later claim that feminists eat their own or can’t even recognize when they’re unintentionally (or intentionally) diminishing other out-groups like “brown people” or atheists.

    Do I like this dynamic? Not at all. Do I think you make lizards seem pretty awesome by being their queen without even having been elected by people like CyberLizard? Oooh, a chicken.

  153. #153 Jason Thibeault
    September 25, 2009

    Oh, and Lord Flashheart is hilarious. I still haven’t seen nearly enough Blackadder. I will make a point of doing so as soon as possible.

  154. #154 Thomas Krawford
    September 25, 2009

    That’s cool.

    I Thomas Krawford am an African American male underemployed Peripatetic Cab Driver living in Ann Arbor with two graduate degrees, a pending Teaching Certificate, a recently diagnosed semi-mild Autistic disorder and a yet to be written story about waking up middle aged after 34 years of never really fitting in anywhere but laughing a lot anyway.

    The story is a little James Joyce Ulysses and a lot Giovanni Batista Vico. I think there are a lot of funny parts, but we’ll see.

    Always thinking (^_’

    Tom

  155. #155 D. C. Sessions
    September 25, 2009

    Jason @152:

    I notice that there is little objection when people (Greg, Stephanie, you, and me — to name four) call out Republicans for tacitly endorsing the birfers, Glenn Beck at his worst, etc. This despite the fact that as far as I know none of us are Republicans and thus have no standing to comment on the “in-group” aspects of right-wing dogma.

    If a person speaks in that role, for instance Dawkins speaking as an advocate for atheism, and they say something ridiculous and indefensible, like that the holocaust never happened, then not only do the other atheists who are members of that group have the right to be embarrassed, but they also get to call Dawkins out on being such an embarrassment

    … but are often reluctant to do so, in fear of “breaking solidarity” or “undermining our position.” Needless to say, this dynamic can be (and historically has been) abused.

    Come to think of it, it would appear that it’s being abused right now — thus we have Limbaugh as the de facto head of the Republican Party. I wonder if we should damn the Republicans with the faint praise of, “At least they aren’t whining that non-Republicans shouldn’t comment.”

  156. #156 luna1580
    September 25, 2009

    thank you SC.

    i still feel isis never really countered anything i said in that thread, other than her attempt to default to DM’s related post without adding her own thoughts on it. i still do not understand why she is a scienceblogger…..